| 02:33.10 | *** join/#neo900 x29a (~x29a@unaffiliated/x29a) |
| 05:51.47 | *** join/#neo900 mordac (~mordac@c-24-6-219-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 07:28.57 | *** join/#neo900 remarc (~sequantz@194.11.24.44) |
| 09:50.20 | *** join/#neo900 Guest90936 (~FIQ@fiq.se) |
| 09:51.46 | *** join/#neo900 Guest90936 (~FIQ@prgmr/customer/fiq) |
| 10:33.32 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:accf:885c:b712:2623) |
| 10:42.49 | *** join/#neo900 mvaenskae (~mvaenskae@unaffiliated/mvaenskae) |
| 11:11.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sorry, 3 guys try to find a way to accomplish both the requirements of lawyers and accomodation of Nikolaus' concerns about ME CHEATING at customers by not placing the text of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1426234 on some neo900.org webpage. According to my lawyers this is something I MUSTNOT do. So expect Neo900 project failing thanks to GDC. I'm sorry |
| 11:16.19 | mvaenskae | wat?! |
| 11:17.48 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: is this some late april fools or is this really more serious than what has happened thus far? |
| 11:18.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the same shit like always been, just now 3 people trying to find a solution for GDC's concerns instead of one or two. |
| 11:19.05 | mvaenskae | may i ask what the concern was? |
| 11:25.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1426929#post1426929 |
| 11:28.56 | fling | omg |
| 11:28.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess every donor could simply pick out the URL of her/his order management page from the invoice you received and copy&paste "I instruct a transfer" to that text box as described in that letter. Since it's all already in place. Just GDC blackmails Neo900 UG to do same mistake as GDC did, by officially promising rebates and all so we wouldn't achieve anything by this whole transfer |
| 11:29.29 | mvaenskae | uhm, so basically gdc doesn |
| 11:29.45 | mvaenskae | doesn't want to send the money out back to the customers one way or another? |
| 11:30.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course yur rebate will be valid still, just not officially legally assured, see #70. We mustn't do this, but GDC insists on me doing it |
| 11:31.08 | mvaenskae | seems like the donors should write an email stating "stfu, just transfer the money, i don't care about rebates, i want the project to succeed" |
| 11:31.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: sorry, don't ask me what GDC wants to do. I have no slightest idea |
| 11:31.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: that could help a lot |
| 11:32.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I promise you again I'm not interested in cheating you, and this transfer is not a planned scam to rip you off |
| 11:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | but GDC insists in accusing me for cheating you |
| 11:33.18 | mvaenskae | that way gdc has evidence of customers taking the risks and is somewhat forced to get their money back to them in one way or another; but keeping it is not an option for gdc |
| 11:33.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 11:34.39 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: i for one am sure that your intentions in this project are fair and serve the project, not your wallet |
| 11:34.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | or simply visit your customer/order management page as described in the letter, go down to the section "notes" or whatever, and add "I instruct an unconditional transfer to Neo900 UG account" |
| 11:35.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you all received the URL of your management page with your invoice GDC sent to you |
| 11:36.05 | mvaenskae | i think gdc's response to the situation is a "proper" reaction in legal terms though, they must show they are safeguarding the money and not just transfering it willy nilly someplace else |
| 11:37.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | when GDC isn't willing to send this letter to you, so now did I. For GDC the resukt shoukd be same, when you do what GDC originally drafted in this letter as the thing you should do. Of course you're also free to copy&paste "I want a refund" to receive the donation back, if you don't trust in Neo900 UG esp me |
| 11:39.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: sure, and the letter and whole procedure serves exactly for this purpose. Just that GDC now finally isn't willing to send out that very letter to you anymore, since I refuse to do changes to the donation page that would create another legal issue for the new Neo900 UG |
| 11:39.21 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: well, if one wants the project to succeed they need to trust you, as you are the head of it :) |
| 11:40.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's the problem: GDC doesn't trust me |
| 11:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's a problem for the project, not only for this situation |
| 11:41.09 | mvaenskae | well, what are they gonna do with the funds so far received then? |
| 11:42.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you're willing to just test the procedure as described in that letter, and you succeed, then I'd kindly ask you to post and report about it in reply to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1426929#post1426929 |
| 11:43.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: I don't know. Refund unconditionally and without an option to transfer it to Neo900 UG account? |
| 11:43.53 | mvaenskae | well, i didn't donate so i cannot test it out :/ i would have done so though and requested a transfer to neo900 ug unconditionally |
| 11:49.39 | mvaenskae | can i assume that this fiasco will mean there will be very likely no hardware development done by gdc on the board? |
| 11:56.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | unclear |
| 11:57.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | so far GDC's statements regarding this were rather like "If Neo900 UG wants technical support from GDC, I'm not averse" |
| 12:10.34 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@p5B072E7C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:43.32 | wpwrak | oh, activity on the channel on #silence ! :-) |
| 13:01.24 | jake42 | added a note to my donation order |
| 13:15.55 | wpwrak | (reading backlog) i think all the bickering leads to wrong impressions. i don't think anyone suspects joerg of being dishonest. and neither is there any reason to suspect GDC. |
| 13:16.32 | wpwrak | it's basically all about nasty formalities, something us techies dislike |
| 13:17.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, no. It's worse. It's a severe spoiling of mood and trsust inside the project |
| 13:18.20 | wpwrak | oh sure. with those formalities, you suddenly find yourself placed in opposing positions, against your will, and rather confused about how you ended up there. |
| 13:18.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | jake42: would you mind to add a post to tmo thread explaining the procedure and the results, please? |
| 13:19.36 | wpwrak | yes, good idea ! |
| 13:33.00 | wpwrak | anyway .. where were we ... ah yes, the block diagram ... |
| 13:34.58 | wpwrak | oh, and by the way, is anyone here good at searching the depths of the chinese web ? the N900 display is a Sony ACX565AKM-7 and we don't have a data sheet for that yet. would be nice to be able to find it. alas, it seems to be rather difficult to find. i saw one mention, behind a USD 800 paywall, no kidding. |
| 13:36.46 | wpwrak | now, people often talk about things, sometimes in fora. and very very often someone mentions some compatible product. alas, even armed with google search and translate, we may not be able to see that deep |
| 13:37.43 | wpwrak | so if someone feels like taking a stroll in these corners, i would be very interesting if they could find something |
| 13:38.47 | wpwrak | (finding that data sheet isn't a life or death issue, but it would remove one of the peskier items from the to do list) |
| 13:55.49 | *** join/#neo900 b1101 (~b@209.222.18.59) |
| 14:22.28 | *** join/#neo900 slyon (~slyon@p5B212CD1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:05.40 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@147.99.218.243) |
| 15:43.52 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: not sure if my note on the order will change anything |
| 15:44.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not |
| 15:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | project basically dies |
| 15:44.22 | jake42 | only just read #88 |
| 15:44.39 | jake42 | well |
| 15:45.39 | jake42 | if many people donate to neo900 UG after the refund, it wouldn't right? |
| 15:45.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just waiting another few days for everybody sleep over it, maybe somebody chages his mind |
| 15:46.04 | jake42 | ok |
| 15:46.17 | jake42 | sounds like a good thing |
| 15:46.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | jake42: I had to find some other hw house, I can do the schematics but not all the manufacturing etc, and I would need help anyway |
| 15:46.57 | jake42 | had? |
| 15:47.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | woukd have |
| 15:47.08 | jake42 | yes |
| 15:47.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | IF enough donations would come to Neo900 UG |
| 15:47.39 | jake42 | so it is now out of question that GDC is doing any paid work for Neo900 UG? |
| 15:47.48 | jake42 | ah just got a answer from nic |
| 15:48.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | now that Nik even refuses to do domors the very simple favor to let them decide on the account where they want to receive their refund |
| 15:49.26 | wpwrak | i guess nik would still like to be helpful, but feels he's been a bit bitten. and you know, once bitten, twice shy. |
| 15:49.29 | jake42 | The refund goes either directly back to your credit card (if you used one to |
| 15:49.29 | jake42 | pay) or if you have used SEPA/IBAN bank transfer, please provide your |
| 15:49.29 | jake42 | account data where we should send the money to. Please note that we do |
| 15:49.29 | jake42 | the refund in EUR, so the resulting amount depends on the exchange rate |
| 15:49.32 | jake42 | of your local currency. |
| 15:49.38 | b1101 | have refunds been sent out yet ? |
| 15:49.46 | jake42 | no |
| 15:49.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | also I can't honestly continue "as usual" when the foundation facts of the project changed (other hw house) |
| 15:50.31 | wpwrak | jake42: i guess you could always ask politely if he wouldn't mind transferring the refund directly to neo900 ug (if you want that to happen) |
| 15:50.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: I've been bitten a dozen times now |
| 15:51.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | and pretty hefty, so my life is close to the edge in several aspects |
| 15:51.29 | wpwrak | that's ... 2^12 = 4096 times shy. that would explain a few things :) |
| 15:51.46 | jake42 | wpwrak: yes, as I can provide the account of neo900 UG |
| 15:52.44 | mordac | The May update said that "and we're offering an option for direct transfer from GDC to Neo900 UG to avoid unnecessary hassle on your side and to avoid fees and currency conversion losses.". I did not see that option in the email I just received. |
| 15:52.53 | wpwrak | regarding the hw house (contract manufacturer), i guess the main problem would be how to pay ? i.e., GDC may accept more flexible terms than someone you don't know ? |
| 15:53.25 | wpwrak | mordac: in a restaurant, not everything they can cook is on the menu :) |
| 15:53.54 | jake42 | mordac: if you donated via creditcard, yes there is no choice |
| 15:54.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm absolutely through now with taking bashing for allegedly being a cheater, and other clear signals of distrust, twice a week. |
| 15:54.26 | wpwrak | i'd just ask, without worrying about technicalities |
| 15:55.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | so cya guys in two days. Maybe |
| 15:55.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm out. I'm wasted. I'm fed up with it. |
| 15:55.37 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: nobody accused you of cheating |
| 15:55.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | OOOH??? |
| 15:55.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 15:55.55 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: yes, take time off |
| 15:56.51 | jake42 | I would believe this is "just" a legal thing. |
| 15:57.20 | wpwrak | maybe have dinner with some friends ? they'll be happy to see you again after being "in the trenches" for so long |
| 15:57.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, this is a thing of trust, and trust based on mutuality (though Nik like to think different in this minor aspect as well) |
| 15:58.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | friends? I seem to have lost them a 2 yeras ago |
| 16:00.48 | mordac | I would take some time off, not make any decisions today. |
| 16:01.14 | wpwrak | wasn't there that ... what's her job, some social worker ?, you once mentioned ? don't play innocent ;-) |
| 16:02.02 | *** join/#neo900 teleshoes (~teleshoes@98.113.246.12) |
| 16:03.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the one lady who told me since 6 months that she thinks GDC is a scam company and Nik just trying to exploit me. I always tried to explain her that she's wrong and Nik isn't like that. Today I probably would get into a solid argument with her about it, since I hate hearing "toldya" |
| 16:03.42 | teleshoes | heh |
| 16:04.01 | wpwrak | you' |
| 16:04.20 | wpwrak | you're a poor looser, begrudging her the triumph :) |
| 16:05.02 | wpwrak | (though i think you both got it quite wrong. but that's part of the conundrum) |
| 16:06.03 | teleshoes | so, is this the end of neo900? |
| 16:06.21 | teleshoes | killed by nikolaus' vindictiveness? |
| 16:06.35 | jake42 | don't jump to conlusions just yet |
| 16:06.41 | teleshoes | yea sorry |
| 16:06.45 | wpwrak | so far, the ideas that came out of openmoko have had a tendency of being very hard to kill |
| 16:11.30 | mordac | well, i'll continue to check the webpage. bye. |
| 16:11.49 | teleshoes | i cant believe he actively discouraged people from donating to neo900 |
| 16:12.12 | jake42 | he doesn't |
| 16:12.15 | teleshoes | totes does |
| 16:12.22 | teleshoes | Neo900 is not the destiny and center of life. |
| 16:12.34 | teleshoes | 'you can do with the refund what you want. Even donate to Neo900 UG. It is completely your decision.' |
| 16:12.53 | jake42 | doesn't sound discouraging to me |
| 16:13.31 | teleshoes | perhaps this is a language issue |
| 16:13.57 | jake42 | sounds more like he is sad by himself that this did not work out so far |
| 16:14.13 | teleshoes | hes done, and thinks everyone else should be too |
| 16:14.25 | teleshoes | theres totally an implicit "i really think youd be wiser waiting for something else cooler" |
| 16:14.44 | teleshoes | and an EXPLICIT downplaying of neo900 |
| 16:15.11 | teleshoes | he couldnt have picked a more passive-aggressive way of phrasing things if he tried, imo |
| 16:16.10 | teleshoes | he promised a transfer option, and then doesnt even suggest that re-donating is possible in the official email |
| 16:16.13 | teleshoes | douche-central |
| 16:16.14 | teleshoes | imo |
| 16:16.29 | teleshoes | i personally couldnt be angrier |
| 16:17.05 | teleshoes | its OUR money, after all, that hes throwing away to the governments |
| 16:17.23 | teleshoes | over a wording dispute |
| 16:17.23 | jake42 | I don't think it will help being angry at anyone |
| 16:17.36 | teleshoes | yea |
| 16:17.41 | teleshoes | long slow breaths |
| 16:18.07 | teleshoes | heh i was calm for like 15 whole seconds there |
| 16:18.45 | teleshoes | i guess ill substitute silence for inner peace, and stop ranting about it here, at least |
| 16:19.01 | teleshoes | and go burn inwardly elsewhere |
| 16:19.14 | *** part/#neo900 teleshoes (~teleshoes@98.113.246.12) |
| 16:19.15 | jake42 | go chase some rabits or something :) |
| 16:19.16 | wpwrak | teleshoes: his problem is that making this sort of suggestions could mean construed as the form of advice that could create a liability for him |
| 16:19.24 | wpwrak | grmbl |
| 16:19.32 | jake42 | wpwrak: right |
| 16:20.20 | wpwrak | that may be overly cautious, but then such things have happened |
| 16:20.29 | *** join/#neo900 edgar2 (~edgar2@85-76-85-226-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 16:21.08 | wpwrak | in a way, with today's "rupture", there's a clean slate. everybody can say what they think, nobody speaks on behalf of anyone else |
| 16:22.01 | jake42 | could be for the best in the end, if enough donations come back to neo900 UG |
| 16:23.34 | *** join/#neo900 hbibq (d9e3d31e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.227.211.30) |
| 16:23.35 | jake42 | lession learned so far is: legal stuff can't be belittled even if we only want to do tech |
| 16:24.57 | hbibq | any updates about the future of neo900 after the dismiss of Nokolaus? |
| 16:26.42 | wpwrak | hbibq: a thought process, about how to proceed |
| 16:37.41 | *** part/#neo900 freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 16:38.11 | *** join/#neo900 freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 16:58.05 | x29a | DocScrutinizer51: is refunding everybody and starting a new fundraiser not an option? |
| 16:58.41 | x29a | sry if that has been proposed before, i only follow conversation that happens here |
| 17:00.06 | wpwrak | i would think it all depends on how people react to the news |
| 17:00.53 | *** join/#neo900 SAiF (~SAiF@117.202.114.151) |
| 17:01.48 | wpwrak | if many ask nikolaus to send their refund to the neo900 ug, instead of being returned, then the project may very well be able to continue on that |
| 17:01.55 | x29a | GDC is out, money back, want to really still support the project, donate again or tell GDC to send the donation to the UG directly, problem solved. of course, a couple of people will chicken out, but the core wont change. i think GDC in its role didnt really influence the decision |
| 17:02.44 | wpwrak | i don't think DocScrutinizer05 has the nerves right now to run another fundraiser, but of course that could be done at some point in time, too |
| 17:02.50 | x29a | the only problem i see is with expenses already made. but that would only be a problem if all donors would not reinvest the refund |
| 17:03.31 | x29a | yeah, i figure that keeping track of the various cashflows is a PITA :( |
| 17:04.54 | wpwrak | he also needs to think about how to reassign roles, maybe talk with GDC about things he'd still want to do with nik, and so on |
| 17:06.18 | wpwrak | i think nik still likes the project, he's just frustrated with how the administrative side has been going |
| 17:07.47 | che1 | I want my mony to be sent to neo900 ug (no credit card user). Does someone know where exactly to do that? In the "add notes" field at the "summary of my order"? |
| 17:13.38 | wpwrak | i'd try that, yes. basically what joerg described. |
| 17:14.49 | che1 | Where did he describe that? In the Forum? |
| 17:15.01 | che1 | (I have to confess I'm not up to date...) |
| 17:15.45 | wpwrak | the problem for GDC isn't that nik would have had any objections against sending the money to neo900 ug, but that he, if he would recommend it, and it wouldn't pan out for some reason, people could think of suing him because of the bad advice |
| 17:16.27 | wpwrak | che1: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1426929&postcount=87 |
| 17:16.34 | che1 | thanks! |
| 17:18.19 | wpwrak | (bad advice) like as if he was a financial advisor telling people to buy madoff's ponzi shares |
| 17:23.18 | freemangordon | is it only me, or http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1426961&postcount=88 , esp the part "...And forces me to declare the final end of the participation from GDC in the Neo900 project." means that we have no HW guys to continue with the development? |
| 17:25.07 | wpwrak | what's a "HW guy" ? :) an electrical engineer ? someone with a fab ? someone who knows how to write manufacturing contracts ? |
| 17:26.36 | *** join/#neo900 mvaenskae (~mvaenskae@unaffiliated/mvaenskae) |
| 17:26.55 | freemangordon | wpwrak: someone skilled enough to develop such a complicated piece of electronics neo900 was supposed to be. doing the PCB correctly is very very complicated job |
| 17:29.34 | wpwrak | yeah, with all those layers :) good question about the layout. i don't know if joerg has ever routed a board as complex as this. i certainly haven't. but then i think having more layers to play with may actually make some things easier. |
| 17:30.10 | wpwrak | i also don't know whether nik would be willing to do the layout once the schematics are done. |
| 17:31.18 | *** mode/#neo900 [+o dos1] by ChanServ |
| 17:31.57 | freemangordon | it is not so simple as routing only, it is about heat dissipation, about HF buses, etc., etc. |
| 17:32.12 | *** topic/#neo900 by dos1 -> http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ | 2013-11-04 - the day our fundraiser reached its goal, 25k EUR | 2013-12-02 - 200 devices reached! | 12-14 50035EUR, 232 units | 01-17 60kEUR, 300 units | 02-28 333 units, 70k€ | 03-28 350 units, 400 donations, 73555€ | 0501 360 410 75k | Neo900 UG: http://neo900.org/donate |
| 17:32.23 | *** mode/#neo900 [-o dos1] by dos1 |
| 17:32.46 | freemangordon | dos1: hmm? |
| 17:33.49 | dos1 | on second thought, maybe I shouldn't do that yet |
| 17:33.52 | *** mode/#neo900 [+o dos1] by ChanServ |
| 17:33.58 | *** topic/#neo900 by dos1 -> http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ | 2013-11-04 - the day our fundraiser reached its goal, 25k EUR | 2013-12-02 - 200 devices reached! | 12-14 50035EUR, 232 units | 01-17 60kEUR, 300 units | 02-28 333 units, 70k€ | 03-28 350 units, 400 donations, 73555€ | 0501 360 410 75k |
| 17:34.00 | *** mode/#neo900 [-o dos1] by dos1 |
| 17:34.12 | freemangordon | dos1: and what did you do? |
| 17:34.20 | dos1 | added "Neo900 UG: http://neo900.org/donate" to topic |
| 17:34.21 | x29a | nothing, obviously ;( |
| 17:34.25 | freemangordon | oh |
| 17:35.04 | freemangordon | dos1: what about my concerns ^^^? any thoughts on the matter? |
| 17:35.05 | wpwrak | yes, of course. there's a bunch of things to pay attention to |
| 17:35.48 | dos1 | I thought it would be useful for people who get their money back but still want to donate to UG |
| 17:35.53 | dos1 | but it's not ready for people who want to place new donations yet, as we're missing details about countries that are not supported |
| 17:36.06 | wpwrak | i don't know what the thermal budget of the whole system looks like. could be that it's actually better than in the n900, given that more modern components can be used |
| 17:36.06 | dos1 | so to avoid confusion I removed it |
| 17:37.07 | freemangordon | wpwrak: me neither, but that is the whole point. you *must* know what you do when doing such a job |
| 17:37.08 | wpwrak | i'd be more worried about RF since at the end of the day you have to measure what it really does (and it won't do exactly what you designed it to do) |
| 17:37.19 | freemangordon | :nod: |
| 17:37.52 | mvaenskae | hello world |
| 17:37.54 | mvaenskae | RF? |
| 17:38.36 | wpwrak | oh, please take the "I" literally :) i just had a quick look at some data sheets last night. joerg certainly knows them orders of magnitude better. dunno if he looked into thermal aspects yet, though. |
| 17:38.49 | dos1 | freemangordon: no thoughts. there're no thoughts in my head right now - headache took it over |
| 17:39.08 | wpwrak | i think the effort so far was more on finding chips/modules that could do the job at all, identify all the connectors and interfaces, etc. |
| 17:39.23 | freemangordon | dos1: ok, I'll refrase/ask again - does "And forces me to declare the final end of the participation from GDC in the Neo900 project." mean that nik is abandoning the project? and "we" don't have HW development team? |
| 17:39.25 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: radio frequency |
| 17:40.22 | freemangordon | wpwrak: GDC have all the know-how from building gtas |
| 17:40.29 | dos1 | freemangordon: no idea. seems like we're at a point where nothing is sure and anything can happen |
| 17:40.33 | wpwrak | freemangordon: joerg has plenty of electrical engineering experience. i mean he was in charge of taming the EE team at openmoko. |
| 17:40.52 | wpwrak | (not managing it, but make their output usable) |
| 17:41.10 | dos1 | personally I hope in joerg+werner working on schematics and GDC doing layout etc. |
| 17:42.26 | wpwrak | i know some basics, too, yes. strictly two layers so far, though, my kitchen wouldn't be good for more than that, and i like be able to make my prototypes at home :) |
| 17:42.55 | freemangordon | dos1: is that possible at all (gdc doing the layout) in the light of the ^^^ statement? |
| 17:43.14 | dos1 | freemangordon: that's a question for GDC |
| 17:43.20 | freemangordon | oh |
| 17:43.32 | dos1 | no idea, sorry |
| 17:43.41 | freemangordon | that's better :) |
| 17:44.00 | dos1 | ah? did I sound rude or something? :x |
| 17:44.16 | freemangordon | no, you sounded like some PR guys :P |
| 17:44.23 | freemangordon | *guy |
| 17:44.36 | wpwrak | i would also hope that we could open the development process a little more. depend on whether there's interest and skills in the community. though some may also consider it a learning opportunity. |
| 17:45.38 | dos1 | heh... I'm some kind of "Neo900 PR guy" after all |
| 17:45.42 | wpwrak | but that would need some convincing of joerg, who's more comfortable with a "closed" model. (i'm from the other end of the spectrum - let it all out, no secrets, fuck "intellectual property") |
| 17:45.57 | freemangordon | wpwrak: what?!? |
| 17:46.19 | wpwrak | freemangordon: never heard of "open hardware" ? :) |
| 17:46.20 | freemangordon | joerg is comfortable with closed model? come on |
| 17:46.25 | wpwrak | ah |
| 17:46.26 | dos1 | closed development model != closed results of that development |
| 17:46.36 | wpwrak | yes, that's what i meant |
| 17:46.48 | freemangordon | ah, makes sense |
| 17:46.55 | mvaenskae | i think a closed development model allows for more peace of mind of not having too many cooks oversalting the soup |
| 17:47.04 | freemangordon | well, I'm with joerg then |
| 17:48.51 | wpwrak | dos1: preparing something the the "thread of gloom of doom" ? e.g., drop a hint that GDC may do a direct transfer if asked nicely ? |
| 17:49.16 | wpwrak | gloom AND doom, of course |
| 17:52.49 | dos1 | I'm doing nothing right now, just returned home and I don't feel very well (physically) :/ |
| 17:54.52 | dos1 | I'm not able to coordinate anything right now on my own. Feel free however to tell me what to do and I'll try to get it done |
| 17:54.54 | wpwrak | hmm yes, understandably. you get up in the morning thinking that this will be the day the last obstacle will be removed, and then this. |
| 17:55.20 | mvaenskae | dos1: well, get then better and take a couple days off :) no need to rush development that is not done thoroughly |
| 17:55.44 | che1 | I would really like to help somehow. But I think I am technically rather inexperienced... So if there's a simple but helpful task feel free to ask... |
| 17:56.28 | wpwrak | dos1: on the PR side, i think it would be good to drop a hint that nik may listen to people asking to transfer their refund to neo900 ug |
| 17:56.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | despite I'm not here: yes, all option are on the table, even GDC doing contract work for Neo900 UG. But I have to seriously reconsider probability of success for any such new structure of a Neo900-resurrected. I want to be honest to community, not collect money for something I'm not convinced will be worth it. I can do schematics, I basically can do routing, but I definitely need help of another one or two experienced guys, or this |
| 17:56.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | project will linger on like GTA04 and probably evenm lomger and more painful. A single person, while maybe able to build a cathedral, will need 1000 years for that |
| 17:57.27 | dos1 | wpwrak: sure; where and how? |
| 17:57.59 | dos1 | newsletter? |
| 17:58.26 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: i think what we need to know now is whether you're okay with suggesting that people who still want to support the project ask for their refund to be transfered to neo900 ug ? |
| 17:58.27 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: have you asked in the community? maybe have some local e-eng students help out and have them do the board as a master thesis =p |
| 17:58.38 | dos1 | and also "I want to be honest to community, not collect money for something I'm not convinced will be worth it" |
| 17:58.50 | wpwrak | dos1: hence my question :) |
| 17:59.52 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: i wouldn't be overly worried about finding skilled help if your project is sexy enough |
| 18:00.25 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: very few share the same philosophy as us do |
| 18:00.42 | wpwrak | it's more every day :) |
| 18:01.16 | wpwrak | besides, a lot of people have a very boring day job that pays well, and are dying for an opportunity to get wild and show what they really can do |
| 18:01.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: (ok with transfer) I see a high probability that I had to refund them anyway in two weeks, but then I'm willing to take that risk and burden. The question is: may I honestly ask for our donors to take that risk and burden? |
| 18:02.11 | mvaenskae | i sure hope we are growing :) |
| 18:02.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I feel I ought tell them to NOT transfer to UG, but then this would also mean the end of the project |
| 18:02.59 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: well, it's your baby. with great powers comes great responsibility :) |
| 18:03.05 | bencoh | hmm |
| 18:03.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I can't say anything except "I won't reject donations" |
| 18:03.28 | wpwrak | dos1: can we work with that ? |
| 18:04.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | please dos1 make *utterly clear* that we can't promise *anything* now with the new impact we suffered |
| 18:04.31 | mvaenskae | how much money would be needed to get just one working unit (including prototypes) of the neo900 out? |
| 18:05.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | hard to tell. even "working" is pretty fuzzy a term |
| 18:05.22 | mvaenskae | working meaning final production for commercial release |
| 18:05.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically our former statements remain true |
| 18:05.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | +/- some massive changes in cost for outsourcing stuff or whatever |
| 18:06.35 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: you mean "to finish R&D" ? (whatever the output quantity, which is really hard to estimate) |
| 18:06.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nik claimed he can do it /with my help) for 25k. Now we face a changes situation, so might easily become 50k, I honestly dunno |
| 18:08.05 | mvaenskae | 25k seems fairly low |
| 18:08.13 | wpwrak | agreed |
| 18:08.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idea of Nik bringing his asset of GTA04 experience to the project seems gone and dead |
| 18:08.32 | wpwrak | 50k sounds a lot more reasonable. 25k would be really queezing it. |
| 18:09.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, folks. I feel sick, wonder why. Might be back in 30 min or in a week |
| 18:09.36 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: no problem, take your time off |
| 18:14.31 | *** join/#neo900 remarc (~sequantz@194.11.24.44) |
| 18:14.44 | *** join/#neo900 remarc (~sequantz@194.11.24.44) |
| 18:25.43 | dos1 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1427045#post1427045 |
| 18:29.19 | wpwrak | perfect, thanks ! |
| 18:30.09 | freemangordon | dos1: do "you" really need donations to assess if the project can continue? |
| 18:31.30 | dos1 | freemangordon: I suppose small amount of donations would be helpful |
| 18:32.14 | dos1 | Neo900 UG is at loss right now, as it had to pay tax advisors, lawyers etc. |
| 18:32.27 | dos1 | and yet UG haven't seen donors money yet |
| 18:32.37 | freemangordon | oh, I see |
| 18:33.05 | freemangordon | maybe you should state that clearly in the ^^^ post |
| 18:33.24 | freemangordon | dos1: what about CC donations? |
| 18:34.00 | freemangordon | as GDC will refund those with no option |
| 18:35.54 | dos1 | no idea |
| 18:36.30 | dos1 | I guess there's no reason to think about them |
| 18:36.44 | dos1 | just a few donors doing small transfers to account should suffice for now |
| 18:37.13 | wpwrak | freemangordon: if you have one, you could see if it's still there. if it is, why not add an instruction to send to neo900 ug ? (that is, if you want) |
| 18:38.15 | freemangordon | wpwrak: Yes, I donated via CC. Do you think it is possible? |
| 18:38.23 | freemangordon | well at least I can try :) |
| 18:38.34 | dos1 | [20:30] <freemangordon> dos1: do "you" really need donations to assess if the project can continue? |
| 18:38.41 | dos1 | I've edited my post to already answer that |
| 18:38.48 | freemangordon | good, thanks |
| 18:42.57 | freemangordon | ok, asked on my order status page, lets see |
| 18:51.50 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 18:57.50 | wpwrak | kewl, thanks ! |
| 19:03.59 | wpwrak | redirected mine, too |
| 19:05.52 | freemangordon | wpwrak: any idea what is written in german at the end of the page? |
| 19:06.57 | ilon | I havent had time to read the backlog yet, so this might have been answered.. |
| 19:07.16 | wpwrak | freemangordon: (about #95, #96) you didn't mention what your question was :) |
| 19:08.07 | ilon | What about the monthy 2% rebate / month that where initially offered to early donators? |
| 19:08.33 | freemangordon | wpwrak: "Is it possible to directly transfer the money to Neo900 UG and what info should I provide if it is?" |
| 19:08.36 | wpwrak | (german) it's a notification (mandated by german laws) that you can withdraw any online order within 14 days, and some finer details of that |
| 19:08.47 | freemangordon | ok, thanks |
| 19:09.18 | freemangordon | ilon: rebate to what? |
| 19:09.35 | freemangordon | GDC are refunding |
| 19:11.40 | wpwrak | and neo900 ug are taking "donations". this time without the attached legalese, which - imho - is what should have done from the beginning. that would have avoided most of the mess. |
| 19:14.29 | wpwrak | now, if the project survives this bumpy debugging, and then succeeds, neo900 ug is if course free to be grateful to donors when the time comes to sell products, whatever form that may take. |
| 19:14.59 | wpwrak | but i think the whole rebate and interest thing just overcomplicated things and draws attention to the wrong issues |
| 19:15.47 | wpwrak | the big issue is to make such a project succeed at all. the rest is just minor in comparison. |
| 19:21.58 | ilon | wpwrak: That was what I assumed, just wanted to check :) |
| 19:42.22 | *** join/#neo900 Guest57628 (~FIQ@fiq.se) |
| 19:51.08 | *** join/#neo900 elalo (~elalo@216.253.193.158) |
| 19:51.25 | *** part/#neo900 elalo (~elalo@216.253.193.158) |
| 20:58.51 | *** join/#neo900 Guest85424 (~FIQ@fiq.se) |
| 21:05.08 | *** join/#neo900 deafboy (deafboy@cicolina.org) |
| 21:30.21 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 21:34.16 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 22:05.06 | wpwrak | wonders if Nikolaus will post an update if I tell him what he just wrote ;-) |
| 22:07.12 | slyon | wpwrak, you're in touch with Nikolaus right now? |
| 22:10.30 | wpwrak | well, by mail |
| 22:11.14 | wpwrak | i did send him a comment saying that i think he probably meant something else |
| 22:13.37 | slyon | sure, he prefers mails :)... but he meant something else about what? |
| 22:14.07 | slyon | did you already negotiate, if he'd still be willing to work on contract for neo900 ug? |
| 22:14.49 | wpwrak | "we don't recommend it" means "we advise against it". what i think he tried to say is "(due to liability reasons) we don't want to give you any recommendation" |
| 22:14.58 | slyon | i see |
| 22:15.33 | wpwrak | (negotiate) naw, give people some time to cool down |
| 22:16.54 | slyon | cooling down is probably a very good idea for all sides. |
| 22:20.02 | *** join/#neo900 joecool (~joecool@no-sources/joecool) |
| 22:21.08 | wpwrak | a very on-topic nick ;-) |
| 22:21.22 | dos1 | slyon: wee! thanks for a bit of sun in this awful day |
| 22:21.47 | slyon | heyho dos1! did my mail help with your fsogsm problem? |
| 22:21.57 | dos1 | eyyup! |
| 22:22.00 | dos1 | :) |
| 22:22.03 | slyon | awesome :) |
| 22:22.37 | slyon | dos1, must have been a pretty harsh day for you... |
| 22:22.48 | dos1 | I still wonder if it's the best way to do that (overriding the mediator), but now it at least works :) |
| 22:23.08 | slyon | sure. first make it work, then make it pretty |
| 22:23.40 | dos1 | yeah... and headache wasn't helping as well |
| 22:23.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | on my end it couldn't get any colder |
| 22:27.26 | slyon | DocScrutinizer05, dos1: maybe you should consider to put a link to neo900.org/donate somewhere in the posts linked in nikolaus' mail. so the people who want him to transfer the money directly to you can find the bank account info |
| 22:27.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: you *realy* think *all* this is just a glitch in translation? |
| 22:27.51 | dos1 | and I was forced today to take a walk to work in full rain - some car ran into tram rails, stopping traffic in both ways (thankfully I had an umbrella, usually I don't take it as it's short way to tram stops and both ends) |
| 22:27.54 | dos1 | and then this happened |
| 22:28.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | slyon: yep, probably |
| 22:29.24 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: i think he posted it past his bedtime |
| 22:29.43 | slyon | dos1, so you definitely need some rest |
| 22:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1426929 at bottom you got this and all other relevant links |
| 22:30.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | slyon: ^^^ |
| 22:31.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and afl again |
| 22:31.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk |
| 22:32.21 | dos1 | slyon: so I do some "relaxing programming" before caffeine level gets low enough to go to sleep |
| 22:32.57 | slyon | dos1, cool. I'm looking forward to seeing your code land at git.fso.org |
| 22:33.04 | dos1 | I have yet to find out how to prevent fsogsmd from crashing when modem nodes disappear after powering modem down during shutdown sequence |
| 22:33.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: probably you still should send out a newsletter (no website update) as originally planned, with the small updates as needed (about where to find the URL, what's the exact procedure, and even add the account data from donations page, and the other links from above post) |
| 22:33.22 | dos1 | but with your fix I guess I can push it now |
| 22:34.39 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: no way I'll write it now, sorry... maybe wpwrak could prepare some text? I'll send it then |
| 22:34.43 | dos1 | or I'll write it tomorrow |
| 22:35.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, we can't ignore a fake "we", nor a "we don't recommend it. Because we don't know if you should agree the different conditions or not." |
| 22:36.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | when Nik is actually that scared about liability and legal stuff, he better had thought twice before sending THAT |
| 22:36.36 | slyon | dos1, modem power and suspend handling should be done in a lowlevel plugin AFAIR, compare: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=cornucopia.git;a=blob;f=fsogsmd/src/plugins/lowlevel_gta04/plugin.vala;h=736a66f4fcf28995dbea15ef0b0d97f034633726;hb=HEAD |
| 22:37.04 | slyon | or it could probably also be handled in libfsoframework/lib |
| 22:37.07 | dos1 | slyon: yep, I have lowlevel plugin - but I want to send AT command to the modem |
| 22:37.09 | slyon | or it could probably also be handled in libfsoframework/fsotransport * |
| 22:37.40 | slyon | I remember changing some stuff in fsotransport, when doing the GTA04 stuff |
| 22:37.50 | dos1 | something similar was done for TI Calypso (AT^POFF, I guess?) |
| 22:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, I only got a limited power for doing stuff like this project |
| 22:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | at a certain point I'm not interested anymore |
| 22:38.35 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: i would ignore the "we". it's a polite form of saying "I". (damn, is english really *that* hard today ?) |
| 22:39.30 | wpwrak | and regarding the "don't recommend", endsormeans already elegantly rephrased it in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427098&postcount=103 |
| 22:39.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, I'm now consulting lawyers about sueing for damage, I guess. And for insult and badmouthing |
| 22:40.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | some funny new stuff |
| 22:40.26 | wpwrak | and maybe nikolaus will post a clarification when he dares to get near the computer again :) |
| 22:40.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | too little, too late. Damage done already |
| 22:41.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd say, a carefully crafted damage |
| 22:41.38 | wpwrak | well, what can we do. now you know why that perhaps wasn't the best idea to start that avalanche :) |
| 22:41.48 | dos1 | slyon: the difference is that with Calypso the modem node wasn't disappearing; and with gtm601 shutdown is initiated already in lowlevel, while here, when I post AT^SMSO in "shutdown" sequence, the modem powers off itself already before lowlevel code kicks up, so the file descriptors aren't closed properly yet |
| 22:42.07 | dos1 | slyon: btw. the same crash happens when I simply disconnect usb cable during fsogsmd operation, so it's probably worth fixing anyway |
| 22:42.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: see above. I can't continue on my fav domain, so I will find a new one. Sueing for damage compensations sounds like fun |
| 22:43.05 | slyon | dos1, i understand. maybe this can somehow be handled in fsotransport in a generic manner |
| 22:44.26 | dos1 | yup, seems like there's some sanity check missing (or has too high severity causing process to abort) |
| 22:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | on a second thought, it's no fun either. I guess I will simply cut my internet wire, and done |
| 22:59.19 | *** join/#neo900 ds2 (noinf@rehut.com) |
| 23:08.34 | *** join/#neo900 slyon_ (~slyon@p5B212CD1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:09.48 | dos1 | slyon: pushed |
| 23:11.33 | slyon | dos1, cool. I'm gonna have a look at it |
| 23:13.34 | dos1 | slyon: btw. there was nasty bug in SMS handling code that was triggered by this modem |
| 23:13.44 | dos1 | http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=cornucopia.git;a=commit;h=2aa2c9733981cf04c9bd626e51d96ee20ce9d91b |
| 23:15.31 | dos1 | choose_from_preference actually worked like "choose_first_from_list", and this modem didn't support one value that was first on the list of preference |
| 23:16.12 | dos1 | slyon: do you know why gtm601 has sms handler overriden? |
| 23:18.13 | slyon | dos1, puhh... on GTA04 there was something that we actively had to poll for sms after resume, but that probably wasn't in the sms handler |
| 23:20.22 | dos1 | slyon: that smshandler is doing exactly what was failing on phs8 due to that bug above |
| 23:20.46 | dos1 | but the values are actually the same as default, so it shouldn't fail there |
| 23:21.33 | dos1 | wait, no |
| 23:22.04 | slyon | dos1, so probably someone hit that bug but did not find/fix it, but rather build a workaround, by overriding the smshandler? |
| 23:22.06 | dos1 | values are the same as supported by phs8 - so I maybe with my fix that handler is not needed anymore? |
| 23:22.20 | dos1 | -I |
| 23:22.22 | slyon | yes, that sounds reasonable |
| 23:23.31 | dos1 | too lazy to cross-compile to check... but adding it to TODO ;) |
| 23:24.07 | slyon | dos1, do you have FSO installed on your host? then you could forward the GTA04's pty to your host and test |
| 23:24.22 | dos1 | oh right |
| 23:24.31 | slyon | using serial_forward |
| 23:24.42 | slyon | that's how I did all my work at that time |
| 23:24.45 | dos1 | I'm doing everything on host right now, with neo900 proto connected by usb |
| 23:26.34 | slyon | yep, that's straight forward |
| 23:29.26 | *** join/#neo900 slyon_ (~slyon@p5B211016.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:31.08 | *** join/#neo900 slyon_ (~slyon@p5B211016.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:33.39 | *** join/#neo900 nicksydney (~quassel@140.137-50-210.dynamic.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) |
| 23:36.38 | slyon_ | dos1, I have to leave now, getting pretty sleepy. Have a bright day tomorrow (in contrast to today)! |
| 23:37.03 | dos1 | slyon_: thanks! good night o/ |
| 23:37.26 | dos1 | and thanks once again for help... also, serial_forward advice was briliant :) |
| 23:44.15 | Guest85424 | so I got a mail |
| 23:44.34 | joecool | same, and yeah it's super confusing isn't it? |
| 23:45.04 | joecool | "lol we're not sure what to do, we're not comfortable telling you what to do, you should probably bookmark this link though |
| 23:45.31 | wpwrak | zis eenglisch iz a deepheecoold lanquatsh :) |
| 23:45.31 | *** join/#neo900 Guest85424 (~FIQ@prgmr/customer/fiq) |
| 23:45.47 | FIQ | and what happens for those who donated below 100? |
| 23:47.06 | wpwrak | FIQ: they're beyond the refund limit, so this goes straight into the "used for work so far" pool |
| 23:47.07 | joecool | oh there were two mails |
| 23:47.13 | joecool | goes back and reads the first one |
| 23:47.56 | FIQ | ah @ wpwrak |
| 23:51.28 | ilon | damn you write alot compared to the normal #idle |
| 23:52.19 | ilon | DocScrutinizer05: well, i'll probably try to get a donation for you, if for nothing else, to go out and have a nice dinner and some time off. :) |
| 23:52.25 | ilon | also, i'm out. |
| 23:52.29 | ilon | night lads |
| 23:53.31 | wpwrak | joecool: according to my crystal ball, the intended meaning is that GDC doesn't want to be seen making recommendations, since that could be legally interpreted as creating a liability |
| 23:54.37 | wpwrak | joecool: so he just lets people tell him what to do, without trying to steer them in any direction. unfortunately, the wording is rather ambiguous |