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| 08:36.00 | paranoik | Hi guys. I have an old N900 with damaged mainboard(gsm, gps chips and usb port broken, vibrator damaged) and I would like to sacrifice its parts for Neo900 |
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| 08:55.57 | chainsawbike | paranoik, there is a planned option to buy just the mainboard + installation parts, so ensure your preorder/donation is done then just keep it somewhere safe :) |
| 08:59.27 | paranoik | chainsawbike: I understood from last Neo900 newsletter that some parts are needed, like the display connector |
| 09:02.09 | chainsawbike | yes, they are looking for new parts - if using "used" connectors is even considered i think it will be an absolute last resort due to the low reliability and high labor costs |
| 09:06.30 | paranoik | okay, thank you |
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| 17:38.24 | fw190 | DocScrutinizer05: hello |
| 17:39.49 | fw190 | DocScrutinizer05: look sharp to the east - before Christmas a small present for Neo900 project will be at your door |
| 17:40.12 | fw190 | DocScrutinizer05: will send you the tracking number when it will start to work |
| 17:45.06 | *** join/#neo900 robotanarchy (~robotanar@e179223033.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:49.26 | robotanarchy | hi there, I'm about to donate, but I have some questions (after reading FAQ): the final device will cost at least 500€ right now, and when more people donate, it will likely get less (by how much, is 200€ at some point realistic?) |
| 17:50.46 | robotanarchy | I misread the whole thing first and thought the final price would be about 100€ >_> so 500 is really a lot more |
| 17:53.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the range is 500..700EUR, with tendency to 500 for more devices |
| 17:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | 200EUR is outright impossible, we would have to find ways to produce cheaper than Samsung |
| 17:57.05 | robotanarchy | okay, thanks |
| 18:02.24 | robotanarchy | it asks for a delivery address. is this where the final device will be shipped to? because it might be that I move before it is ready |
| 18:06.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is just a side effect of treating donations like normal orders. We don't need a shipping addr, we will get that from the final order once you place that |
| 18:06.29 | robotanarchy | what should I type there, because the fields are required |
| 18:06.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ideally your address |
| 18:06.47 | robotanarchy | ok xD |
| 18:06.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno if you as well could leave it empty |
| 18:08.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | you probably shouldn't type in phantasy addr, since odds are it could accidentally get used as shipping addr nevertheless |
| 18:08.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the addr (not shipping addr) is used by our credit card verification partner |
| 18:10.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 18:10.39 | robotanarchy | that's complicated :p can't you just write down somewhere, that you need to make sure that you don't accidentally send the final phone to a donation address? |
| 18:11.00 | robotanarchy | because the form has required fields n stuff (I don't want to type 1234 in the zip code, that is just as bad) |
| 18:11.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | we won't do that |
| 18:11.21 | robotanarchy | okay, so it should be fine if i type in my real address |
| 18:11.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | the shop usually uses shipping addr of the (final) order to ptint the addr stickers |
| 18:12.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is no manual processing done, this is an automated webshop software |
| 18:12.40 | robotanarchy | I'm confused, is it a problem if I put a real adress in the shipping field (it's required there) or not? |
| 18:12.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | no problem |
| 18:13.10 | robotanarchy | ok thanks |
| 18:14.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the webshop works exactly as you'd guess it should |
| 18:15.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just a tad unusual that it doesn't sell anything for the product "donation" |
| 18:15.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | but the shop has no special handling for this "product" |
| 18:16.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you will receive a proper invoice and all |
| 18:16.22 | robotanarchy | ok :) |
| 18:17.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | you even will receive an invoice that has german VAT on it, no matter if you're in EU or outside EU |
| 18:18.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is because we're obliged to pay VAT for donations. Once we ship a device for that money you donated, we will revert that in case you're living at a location that doesn't require us to pay VAT when shipping goods to there |
| 18:21.20 | sixwheeledbeast | I want to ask about that. So if I donate 10x10 that still counts as a rebate for a device? even tho it is actually 84eur after 19% vat |
| 18:22.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, you need to donate 1x100 |
| 18:22.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and those will count as 100+x for the rebate on whatever the device will cost for you, after adding VAT as needed to that final price |
| 18:23.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't per default concatenate donations into one |
| 18:24.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | we did this for customers who wanted to increase their donation to the 1500+ level |
| 18:25.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can't do this for donors who donate 10 times 10 eur |
| 18:25.21 | sixwheeledbeast | eh? but there is no option for that only quantities of 10eur |
| 18:25.45 | robotanarchy | that is also confusing. I think when you donate 10x10€, it counts as 1x 100€ |
| 18:25.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's just the amount for ONE donation |
| 18:26.52 | robotanarchy | so I made my donation :) good luck with the project, can't wait to get a neo900 :> |
| 18:26.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | 10EUR is just the minimum we can accept to not *pay* for the donation |
| 18:27.01 | sixwheeledbeast | so how does one get 1x100 then? |
| 18:27.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | robotanarchy: :-D many thanks! |
| 18:27.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: you select 100EUR as ammount |
| 18:28.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | since the unit is "10 EUR" you will type "10" |
| 18:28.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is ONE donation of HUNDRED then |
| 18:28.39 | sixwheeledbeast | not possible from what I can tell. |
| 18:28.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | uhuh |
| 18:29.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ADonation seems it's pretty easily possible |
| 18:29.30 | sixwheeledbeast | Oh so as I said if you donate 10x10eur this equals 1x100eur therefore 1 preorder. |
| 18:30.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | when yiu 10 times donate 10 eur that is 10 donations of 10 eur |
| 18:30.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you donate one time 100eur (in 10 units of 10EUR) then that's ONE donation of 100EUR |
| 18:32.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never thought this could be so unclear |
| 18:32.28 | sixwheeledbeast | so if you donate 10x10eur here https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Neo900 this==rebate for Neo900? |
| 18:34.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/17/plasma-desktopvY3389.png |
| 18:34.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 18:37.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | see the "total: 100EUR" and the "Product: N900 development donation" (btw wtf "N900", this must be "Neo900" but I think that's not really too confusing) |
| 18:40.58 | sixwheeledbeast | Ok so yes I donated 10x10eur=100eur "development donation". It does seem confusing IMO, there are multiple pages to donate on, it would seem. |
| 18:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I forwarded it to Nikolaus, maybe he can inprove the page/site |
| 18:50.30 | sixwheeledbeast | k, thanks. I was just checking what I have done will count as a rebate, because that is what I assumed after being directed there from neo900.org |
| 18:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you donated 100EUR in one transaction, then yes, that counts as one donation of 100EUR |
| 18:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thus entitles you for the rebate |
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| 19:06.09 | sixwheeledbeast | well the answer is no then :( |
| 19:25.08 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: 90 EUR? is that you? |
| 19:52.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
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| 19:55.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: sorry, what's the problem? what means "the answer is no"? |
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| 19:56.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
| 19:57.47 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I need some help with alsa, could you recommend someone? |
| 19:58.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 19:58.04 | freemangordon | I am stuck at making the earpiece work :( |
| 19:58.30 | freemangordon | (on n900 and 3.13) |
| 19:58.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
| 19:59.20 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: oh, re NFC - any chip will do the job, as long as it supports so-called "single wire protocol" |
| 19:59.34 | freemangordon | this is a connection between the chip and the SIM |
| 19:59.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | you tried playback sound directly via alsa, without PA and ped, from e.g mp3 player? |
| 20:00.05 | sixwheeledbeast | dos1, DocScrutinizer05: 100EUR on the 14 Dec, "the answer is no" == no rebate |
| 20:00.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such connection, since the only device that connects to SIM is the modem |
| 20:00.21 | sixwheeledbeast | I have order code if that helps |
| 20:00.28 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: but 100EUR = rebate |
| 20:00.55 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: no, but playback to headphone and speakers work, and volume buttons control the volume, I see stuff changing in alsamixer, etc |
| 20:01.14 | freemangordon | the same happens for the earphone, but there is no sound out of it |
| 20:01.40 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: what stops you from doing that connection (between NFC chip and the SIM)? |
| 20:01.46 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: if you typed "10" into amount field and paid 100 EUR, then you're entitled to 100 EUR rebate (and increasing 2% each month) |
| 20:01.55 | sixwheeledbeast | dos1: 100eur as 10x10EUR donations on this page https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Neo900 |
| 20:02.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never heard of such connection and I donno where and how to make it |
| 20:02.26 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: if you actually clicked "order" ten times and typed all your data ten times, then yes, it's ten donations |
| 20:02.34 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Wire_Protocol |
| 20:02.47 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: otherwise it's 1 donation for 100 EUR and that "10" is only the unit used to choose the amount |
| 20:03.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I know single-wire protocol, but i need a pin to connect the single wire to |
| 20:03.48 | sixwheeledbeast | dos1: no I selected 10 x 10eur in one order. |
| 20:03.49 | freemangordon | it is that "unused" pin on the SIM holder |
| 20:03.55 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ |
| 20:03.56 | dos1 | sixwheeledbeast: then everything is fine |
| 20:04.00 | sixwheeledbeast | :) |
| 20:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: so god gracious what's the problem? |
| 20:04.16 | sixwheeledbeast | thanks dos1 |
| 20:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | sighs desperate and heads off |
| 20:05.27 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: wait :) |
| 20:06.35 | sixwheeledbeast | Well you said "when you donated 100EUR in one transaction, then yes, that counts as one donation of 100EUR". As I say there are two places to donate I was checking I had selected correctly |
| 20:08.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are even three ot maybe four places to donate, even on goldelico.com site |
| 20:08.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | only one is related to neo900 though |
| 20:10.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, what in http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/17/plasma-desktopvY3389.png looks unclear? |
| 20:12.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: how do you try to playback sound to earpiece? |
| 20:12.56 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I did a skype voice call |
| 20:13.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 20:13.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea, that can be PA as well |
| 20:13.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | or skype itself |
| 20:14.01 | freemangordon | well, I have voice from speaker(if I push thebutton) or through headphone (if connected) |
| 20:14.17 | freemangordon | no, it is not PA |
| 20:14.27 | freemangordon | it is the asoc board config |
| 20:14.43 | freemangordon | but I need someone to give me a hand |
| 20:14.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | then fix the asoc board config |
| 20:14.49 | freemangordon | heh |
| 20:15.35 | freemangordon | the problem is that documentation (of alsa in the kernel) is close to sero |
| 20:15.35 | freemangordon | *zero |
| 20:16.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | what can I say |
| 20:16.34 | freemangordon | anyway |
| 20:16.50 | freemangordon | what about NFC? |
| 20:19.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>C6 pin of UICC is connected to CLF<< maybe I can use this |
| 20:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 20:19.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | single-wire protocol is not SIM or NFC specific, thus I not even looked at that wikipedia article |
| 20:20.32 | freemangordon | yes, that is the point, the pin on SIM that is usually not connected is used for NFC |
| 20:20.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want me to look at some info, then you need to tell me about what's the info I'm supposed to find there |
| 20:21.01 | freemangordon | ok, I'll do my homework :) |
| 20:40.53 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/102600_102699/102613/07.03.00_60/ts_102613v070300p.pdf |
| 20:40.57 | freemangordon | on page 11 |
| 20:57.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | what a mess |
| 20:57.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you see anything about VCC? |
| 20:58.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | they dodge away from this issue by simply connecting SIM to NFC's VCC, but in real life SIM is powered by modem, with *different* voltages |
| 20:59.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are 5V and 3V3 and maybe even 1V8 SIMs and modem handles that |
| 21:00.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | also, did you consider the privacy issues? |
| 21:00.25 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: "For the low power mode, the electrical characteristics of contact C1 (Vcc) are extended by the present document." |
| 21:00.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's pretty thin eh? |
| 21:01.13 | freemangordon | I guess there is a follow-up explanation on that extension |
| 21:01.49 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: re privacy - in card emulation mode no sensitive data is transmitted in clear form between terminal and card |
| 21:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | says who? |
| 21:02.21 | freemangordon | where card is Neo900 and teminal is contactless card reader |
| 21:02.24 | freemangordon | says me |
| 21:02.43 | freemangordon | EMV/contactless cards is part of what I do in RL |
| 21:03.14 | freemangordon | also, there are specs if you want to dig deeper |
| 21:03.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm talking about a black box (SIM) having total control ofer a transceiver (NFC) |
| 21:03.38 | freemangordon | oh, no, it doesn't work like that |
| 21:03.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | over* |
| 21:04.00 | freemangordon | NFC chip is just a "transport layer" |
| 21:04.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly |
| 21:04.11 | freemangordon | it simply adds anthenna to the chip |
| 21:04.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly |
| 21:04.24 | freemangordon | s/chip/SIM/ |
| 21:04.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you "add antenna" to a blackbox |
| 21:05.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it can do worse stuff than modem |
| 21:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | since we have no means to control what it does |
| 21:05.28 | freemangordon | it can't, this is NFC, mind you |
| 21:05.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 21:06.02 | freemangordon | I don;t understand your concern |
| 21:06.22 | freemangordon | what privacy problem do you think might arise? |
| 21:06.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | my concern is: this is passport with RFID ^ 10 |
| 21:07.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | *everybody* can pass by and talk to your SIM without you havning the faintest chance to even notice it |
| 21:07.04 | freemangordon | passport? no, this is the same as your debit/credit card |
| 21:07.19 | freemangordon | or your contactless card if you have one |
| 21:07.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I an put that one into a shielding sleeve and only pull it out to use it |
| 21:08.09 | freemangordon | oh,SIM is apart of that interface |
| 21:08.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the contactless card has no battery to send with 100mW |
| 21:09.01 | freemangordon | power donw the NFC chip and you're just fine |
| 21:09.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | AHA!! where from is NFC power? didn't we talk about VCC before? |
| 21:10.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't I tell you it can't work the way they sketched it in that silly ETSI paper? |
| 21:10.22 | freemangordon | that one powers SIM card, not the anthenna |
| 21:10.23 | freemangordon | ar transmitter |
| 21:10.23 | freemangordon | *or |
| 21:10.23 | freemangordon | see the schematics |
| 21:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, look again |
| 21:11.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the levels of the pin at NFC and the pin at UICC/SIM are defined relative to the one and only VCC |
| 21:11.33 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: CLF stands for "contactless frontend", the other name for our NFC chip |
| 21:11.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know |
| 21:12.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 21:12.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | the "schematics" clearly state that CLF and SIM use same VCC |
| 21:12.32 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: depending on the implementation, you may have NFC active or not when power is switched off |
| 21:12.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they have to |
| 21:13.16 | freemangordon | oh, you mean that modem powers that CLF? |
| 21:13.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | since the signal levels on single-wire are defined as VCC*0.7 for example |
| 21:13.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, the modem can't power CLF |
| 21:14.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not designed to do that |
| 21:14.21 | freemangordon | ok, I still fail to see what is the privacy issue as long as TX is disabled |
| 21:14.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | HOW THE HECK do we even *POWER* the TX? |
| 21:15.05 | freemangordon | isn't TX part of that NFC chip? |
| 21:15.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you answered that question, I can tell you if we can disable it |
| 21:16.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I told you VCC for SIM is from odem and may be 1V8, 3V3 or 5V and is not capable or suited to power CLF/NFC |
| 21:16.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | OTOH NFC and SIM MUST use same VCC since levels on 1-wire are defined as % of VCC |
| 21:17.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we have a terrible collision here |
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| 21:17.23 | freemangordon | I need to find some real nfc chip, I guess it will become clear how that works in practice |
| 21:17.41 | *** join/#neo900 hbib (~wurmel@pD9E3CA73.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:17.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | that only modem with built-in special support for NFC and even the NFC itself built into modem can solve |
| 21:18.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | or the NFC chip has an input "SIM-VCC" that's only for reference but not for powering the NFC |
| 21:19.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | even then the modem needs to control the SIM VCC according to the requirements for NFC, it for example mustn't power down the SIM |
| 21:20.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it must support reading out the info about SIM supporting 1-wire or not |
| 21:20.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | it must configure the SIM accordingly |
| 21:20.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno if our modem knows how to do that |
| 21:22.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all the modem module is M2M, not meant for mobile phones with NFC. Car-Navi rarely has NFC |
| 21:23.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia easily can patch their BB5 modem software to handle that stuff. I dunno if cinterion even thought of 1-wire |
| 21:23.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | most of the modems don't come with analog audio even |
| 21:24.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and digital audio is just a "nice to have" on those modems |
| 21:24.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | not mandatory |
| 21:25.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | this 1-wire stuff looks like ... one wire, but actually it's a damn lot more of a mess and trouble |
| 21:26.03 | freemangordon | "PMUVCC A8 Power SIM Power in from mobile PMU" |
| 21:26.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd like to have it, but I'm not sure we can do it. Heck I dunno if we even can *evaluate* it |
| 21:26.12 | freemangordon | this is NXP PN544 |
| 21:26.48 | freemangordon | "SIMVCC B8 Power SIM Power out to UICC" |
| 21:27.16 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: http://www.alldatasheet.com.cn/download.php?id=1698663&pdfid=95F70B32A8CE7F4EDBE287FEA56A3511&file=0350\pn544_2767746.pdf |
| 21:28.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | fine |
| 21:28.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | now tell me who's going to power the NFC |
| 21:29.17 | freemangordon | check on page 20 "Supply of SIM with SWP interface" |
| 21:29.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess the chip has an additional power supply input and it can power the SIM when modem doesn't |
| 21:29.44 | freemangordon | yep |
| 21:30.01 | freemangordon | it doesn't need even a battery to operate |
| 21:30.11 | freemangordon | if configured so |
| 21:31.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | then how do we ensure SIM isn't remove while powered? |
| 21:31.49 | *** join/#neo900 romashka (~romashka@91.210.101.14) |
| 21:31.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that can destroy SIM |
| 21:32.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem has a switch in simtray for that |
| 21:32.03 | freemangordon | no, it can't |
| 21:32.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes it can |
| 21:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why that switch is mandatory when SIM can get removed while modem powered up |
| 21:32.52 | freemangordon | well, I guess that switch can be used to provide signal to both modem and NFC chip |
| 21:33.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I guess all this has to get evaluated |
| 21:33.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I have no time to do that ad-hoc |
| 21:33.33 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure |
| 21:33.52 | freemangordon | I was just feeding data through the pipeline :) |
| 21:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw: the modem might not like getting reverse-fed with power from SIM pins when the modem is powered off |
| 21:36.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | it needs to be prepared/designed for that |
| 21:37.22 | freemangordon | afaik SWP is independant of SIM interface |
| 21:37.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you can't guarantee that the data/clk/reset pins of SIM do _not_ feed power to the modem when SIM is powered on VCC |
| 21:38.06 | freemangordon | NFC enabled SIMs are designed to operate like that |
| 21:38.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but what about those SIM that never heard of NFC? |
| 21:38.59 | freemangordon | they have their C6 pin NC ;) |
| 21:39.19 | freemangordon | specs say they MUST do |
| 21:39.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | and - as I already said - you need the modem to check if a card is designed to do 1-wire/NFC or not |
| 21:39.40 | freemangordon | why? |
| 21:39.48 | freemangordon | modem shouldn;t care about that |
| 21:39.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | to talk to the card |
| 21:40.04 | freemangordon | modem doesn't talk to SWP part |
| 21:40.11 | freemangordon | only NFC chip does |
| 21:40.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah! |
| 21:40.37 | freemangordon | yes, this is different interface |
| 21:40.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | NFC capability is in card's parameter storage |
| 21:41.14 | freemangordon | sure, but why should modem care about that? |
| 21:41.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | the modem needs to read out that storage and also tell card to enable NFC since the *terminal* also can do it |
| 21:41.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the device, whatever |
| 21:42.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | seen that in 5 min reading that ETSI shit |
| 21:42.14 | freemangordon | no, modem should not enable NFC. The whole thing (NFC) is designed to work in stand-alone mode, operated on anthenna power only |
| 21:42.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, after been enabled |
| 21:42.48 | freemangordon | no, even the "device" is powered off |
| 21:42.57 | freemangordon | *even when |
| 21:42.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh! |
| 21:43.24 | freemangordon | yes, read that pn544 datasheet |
| 21:44.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | what a mess |
| 21:46.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess I just learnt about the reason why Nokia "forgot" to implement single-wire on N9 |
| 21:46.41 | freemangordon | hmm? |
| 21:47.16 | freemangordon | BTW is NFC on N9 FRID tags only? |
| 21:47.21 | freemangordon | *RFID |
| 21:47.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | they either thought it's not worth the massive effort to evaluate, or they found a showstopper hidden somewhere during such evaluation |
| 21:48.51 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: that SWP enables you to use your mobile as a contactless card. And there is massive effort in europe to migrate to CC for the last 2-3 years |
| 21:49.19 | freemangordon | usually those are used as wallet, for amounts < 50 euro |
| 21:50.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, with zilch control |
| 21:50.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | all the "control2 is n the terminal |
| 21:51.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you ask where#s the privacy issue? |
| 21:51.45 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: allow me to know a bit about card payments and SW in those teminals :) |
| 21:51.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I guess we can squash that easily, by cutting the single-wire |
| 21:52.01 | freemangordon | no, the control is in the card issuer |
| 21:52.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 21:52.15 | freemangordon | terminal is just that -a terminal |
| 21:52.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | does the card issuer press a button to allow transaction with my CC? |
| 21:52.45 | freemangordon | actually yes |
| 21:53.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | fine. I'd prefer when I would do that |
| 21:53.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | *I* |
| 21:53.15 | freemangordon | the issuer is the one that decides whether to approve the "transaction request or not |
| 21:53.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | Ideally even enter a PIN |
| 21:53.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | to my CC |
| 21:53.50 | freemangordon | nothing stops you to enter the PIN, it depends on how the card was issued. it is not a technology limitation |
| 21:53.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | NOT to a terminal blackbox that's possibly rogue |
| 21:54.25 | freemangordon | no, it is not. I've done 3 certifications with FIME so fat (ATM EMV kernels) |
| 21:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | since a rogue terminal won't ask for my pin |
| 21:54.30 | freemangordon | *far |
| 21:54.35 | *** join/#neo900 virman (~virman@91.210.100.70) |
| 21:54.53 | freemangordon | good, and why then your bank would approve that transaction? |
| 21:55.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | why wouldn't it? |
| 21:56.00 | freemangordon | if your card is set up in the host system to require online pin on every transaction, a transaction request that comes without PIN MUST be declined |
| 21:56.38 | freemangordon | because that is how the stuff works. Trust me, I know more than a bit about authorization systems |
| 21:57.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | scenario: one guy spies my pin while I pay in wallmart, then follows me and stands near me with a NFC<->UMTS transponder. A second guy uses a second such transponder coupled with first one via UMTS to buy a rolls royce and pay with the remote-virtual CC and my pin |
| 21:57.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | trust me, I can do this |
| 21:57.57 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: your PIN is not transmitted to the card ;) |
| 21:57.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | easy-peasy |
| 21:58.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | not necessary |
| 21:58.36 | freemangordon | it is send encrypted with 3DES to your issuer for verification, along with the other transaction data |
| 21:58.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | PIN can get spied in very traditional way, lurking over my shoulder |
| 21:59.49 | freemangordon | not to say that every transaction has a "hash" - so called ARC (Authorisation Request Cryptogram), which is based on 3DES keys shared between the card and the issuer |
| 21:59.58 | freemangordon | sorry, ARQC |
| 22:00.13 | freemangordon | ARC is the response cryptogram |
| 22:00.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | even simpler: the taxi driver has a really fsckng CC terminal in his car that needs 3 minutes to conect to the bank. You type your PIN and it says "transaction aborted, no connection to network, please repeat" |
| 22:01.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the thing is rogue and transfers my virtual CC to the 3rd man at rolls royce shop |
| 22:01.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | he got all, access to the card +and* the pn |
| 22:01.46 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: do you read what I wrote? |
| 22:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 22:01.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 22:01.59 | freemangordon | your taxi driver cannot produce that ARQC |
| 22:02.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | why would he need to? |
| 22:02.20 | freemangordon | and the bank will decline the transaction because the card verification will fail |
| 22:02.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 22:02.29 | freemangordon | yes |
| 22:02.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 22:02.50 | freemangordon | avary transaction has its own ARQC |
| 22:02.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | what makes you think the virtual card at rolls royce is not good for the bank? |
| 22:03.05 | freemangordon | and the bank knows how to check if it is genuine |
| 22:03.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | please tell me in detail where and when in the procedure the fake card will fail |
| 22:04.03 | freemangordon | because even the bank cannot generate that ARQC as noone knows the keys, but HSMs in the bank and the card itself |
| 22:04.14 | freemangordon | (HSM - security module) |
| 22:04.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | the gangster holds transponder to the terminal at RR and that transponder talks to your CC at taxi |
| 22:04.33 | freemangordon | and BTW the bank don't know your PIN either |
| 22:04.48 | freemangordon | so? |
| 22:05.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn, the taxi driver knows the pin,. since you typed it to a fake keyboard in his car |
| 22:05.25 | freemangordon | the worst he can do is to pay your taxi once again, if the first request didn;t make it to the bank |
| 22:05.36 | freemangordon | yes, he knows the pin, but that is not enough |
| 22:05.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | go take all your ARQC and whatnot - they won't help here |
| 22:05.58 | freemangordon | oh, yes, it will |
| 22:06.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | tell me why! |
| 22:06.14 | freemangordon | again - the transaction amount is present in that arqc |
| 22:06.26 | freemangordon | ENCRYPTED |
| 22:06.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't talk your gibberish |
| 22:06.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't care what's encrypted |
| 22:06.52 | freemangordon | those 20 euro you're supposed to pay to the taxidriver |
| 22:07.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tell you the gangester hold the transponder to RR POS |
| 22:07.07 | freemangordon | RR? |
| 22:07.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | communication starts with +your+ card, via UMTS and a secondd transponder |
| 22:07.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | RollsRoyce |
| 22:08.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | until this pint I can't see where your encryption kicks in |
| 22:08.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | point* |
| 22:08.10 | freemangordon | oh, so the card does not communicate with taxi's terminal, but with some fake one? |
| 22:08.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | the taxi terminal is both |
| 22:08.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | or maybe only a fake one yeah |
| 22:08.43 | freemangordon | card cannot communicate with two terminals at once |
| 22:09.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | iot doen't need to communicate with two terminals at once |
| 22:09.25 | freemangordon | yeah, got it |
| 22:09.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't* |
| 22:09.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can do ZILCH to stop me pulling that off |
| 22:10.15 | freemangordon | no, it doesn't work like that, card verifies the terminal too |
| 22:10.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless user needs to enter PIN to CARD, not _terminal_ |
| 22:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what, it will verify the RR POS just fine |
| 22:11.44 | freemangordon | well, you'll get a receipt, ain't? |
| 22:11.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it won't tell you that it thinks it's at RR |
| 22:12.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | HAH, the receipt, yeah |
| 22:12.41 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: see, if we think that way, lets forget about POS and ATM devices altogether |
| 22:12.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | but since the taxi terminal is fake anyway, the driver is nice and offers you a free ride since his POS terminal is defect |
| 22:13.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | finaly you got my point |
| 22:13.40 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, I am not saying this is impossible, but highy improbable |
| 22:13.47 | freemangordon | *highly |
| 22:14.10 | freemangordon | oh, wait |
| 22:14.32 | freemangordon | where is that gangsta's POS terminal connected to? |
| 22:15.00 | freemangordon | and what does the bad guy buys actually? |
| 22:15.17 | freemangordon | it is YOU that buys RR, ain't? |
| 22:15.35 | freemangordon | so he goets nothing in the end? |
| 22:15.36 | freemangordon | *gets |
| 22:17.40 | *** join/#neo900 skuratovskiy (~skuratovs@91.210.100.70) |
| 22:17.45 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: think about ^^^ :). |
| 22:18.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, busy with council handover |
| 22:18.10 | freemangordon | however, please consider discussing this NFC stuff with the other guys |
| 22:18.17 | freemangordon | sure, np |
| 22:19.34 | freemangordon | If I weren't so tired, I'd have explained that cards stuff way clearer. But as I obviously need some sleep, I'm off to bed |
| 22:19.36 | freemangordon | Night |
