IRC log for #metawatch on 20110918

00:49.43javispedrowell, you're boned then
00:49.50javispedrothe WM doesn't exactly use "Secure Connections"
00:50.02javispedroI do not think they are encrypted at all..
00:50.57javispedrobut they're actually only talking about pairing I guess...
01:10.47thescreensaversNot sure, but they linked something from the bluetooth api which should be all of android.  Any how Ill just wait and see I guess
03:08.46*** join/#metawatch DocScrutinizer (~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg)
08:09.34DocScrutinizer~logs
08:09.34infobotAll conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23metawatch/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.
08:16.54DocScrutinizer( <GeneralAntilles> HTC claims SPP support too  <GeneralAntilles> But they LIE) I guess there's a bit of a difference between exposing a virtual tty to BT and otoh connecting to that virtual tty
08:17.34DocScrutinizerI well believe HTC is exposing a virtual tty where you can interface the modem via AT commands
08:18.00DocScrutinizerconnecting to another BT SSP tty is another game I guess
08:18.18DocScrutinizers/SSP/SPP/
08:19.36DocScrutinizerRadix-wrk: you want to inform chan users about "chanlogs at  http://ibot.rikers.org/%23metawatch/"  in topic
08:20.42DocScrutinizer~factinfo logs
08:20.42infobotlogs -- last modified at Mon Feb  7 22:08:20 2011 by TimRiker!~TimRiker@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker; it has been requested 444 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 11m 8s ago.
08:20.57DocScrutinizer~literal logs
08:20.57infobot"logs" is "<reply>All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/$urlchannel/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily."
08:51.03*** join/#metawatch ka010 (~ka010@e180081093.adsl.alicedsl.de)
09:58.48*** join/#metawatch orlovsky (~tony@host109-153-127-124.range109-153.btcentralplus.com)
12:03.23*** join/#metawatch joehughes (~anonymous@78-86-3-30.zone2.bethere.co.uk)
13:06.15*** join/#metawatch javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro)
14:32.58joehughesAnyone around?
14:46.16javispedroI am around
14:46.36javispedroand even doing stuff ;) http://depot.javispedro.com/metawatch/watchtoomany.jpg
14:48.53GeneralAntillesjavispedro, nice.
14:49.04GeneralAntillesjavispedro, how do you add application settings to the Settings application?
14:49.25javispedroYou mean on #harmattan? I have no idea yet
14:49.48javispedromore interested in how you read pending notification counts now =)
14:50.32GeneralAntillesSurely there's a relevant dbus signal you can listen for?
14:50.45javispedroyeah, for new ones
14:51.16javispedroI can get the the unread mail count from the mail app itself, but, who clicks on the "Mark all mails as read"? It's better to get the one from the "events view" home screen
14:52.38joehughesjavispedro, what are you driving that from?
14:52.46javispedromy Nokia n95
14:52.48javispedro*n950
14:53.09dm8tbrgetting real time incoming call info on the n950 would be awesome
14:53.39joehughesCool.  I've been fooling around with my own connection code on Android, it's nice to be only limited by firmware problems instead of firmware + MWM problems.
14:54.05javispedrohehe
14:54.09javispedrowaiting for the MWM code too
14:54.23javispedrosince there's still a lot of protocol stuff that's not documented
14:54.35javispedrofor ex. seems that BT clients can trigger the "Show seconds" mode
14:54.40javispedroI triggered it by accident at least...
14:54.43joehughesHas anyone managed to read any button configuration info (msg 0x48)?
14:55.05ka010joehughes: been messing with that but no luck so far
14:55.15joehughesI'm not sure the "show seconds" thing is intentional, I seem to have triggered it by toggling the idle mode clock display on and off
14:55.28javispedrojoehughes: exactly
14:55.34ka010yeah me too
14:55.45javispedrojoehughes: make it 26 zeros and you will stop toggling it
14:55.54javispedrotherefore, one of the 26 bytes is "seconds mode" =)
14:56.20javispedro(When the watch expects a longer message it doesn't complain or reject it, it just reads garbage)
14:56.30joehugheska010, yeah, I was just fooling around with your implementation of the button thing, and then I just got down to trying to send "\x48\x00" and varying numbers of zeros afterwards, but I haven't been able to get a peep out of the watch
14:57.17joehughesIt's too bad, because without a way to pin app mode with no timeout, I think I'm gonna have to take over idle mode to get the results I want
14:57.31joehughesbut it would be nice to get the firmware functions back without resetting the watch hardware
15:00.14joehughesI noticed that Marcel (moneytoo), the author of MWM, is on the boards now at least
15:00.33javispedrooh
15:00.45javispedrothat's the guy from openwatch?
15:01.02javispedroso that's how they got the source for openwatch...
15:01.04joehughesYes, MWM is based off the OpenWatch source code
15:03.53joehughesI just wish the boards weren't so broken, and that there was *some* way to read all new messages without constantly refreshing the latest messages view
15:04.34javispedrothe boards are crappy indeed
15:04.44javispedrocould they at least decide between www. and www-less URL ? ;P
15:06.04joehughesI think they're probably just way understaffed and spending most of their time on getting the watches built
15:06.26javispedro(cause when I click on a link and it takes me to www, I need to relogin. Same in the other direction.)
15:08.39joehughesSomeone did make a Google Group a while back, but there hasn't been much activity on it: http://groups.google.com/group/metawatch-development
15:08.45javispedroI am thinking that probably the "12/24 hour mode bit" got moved to the configure idle screen message
15:10.06javispedrojoehughes: btw, which font did you use in http://retrovirus.com/incr/2011/08/metawatch-experiments/  ?
15:10.37javispedrospecially http://retrovirus.com/incr/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wrist-tube-status.jpg
15:10.54joehughesjavispedro: well, some of them are just taking the Android fonts and blasting them poorly into monochrome
15:11.21javispedrowell, doesn't look bad...
15:11.24joehughesFor that screenshot, the two apps there are just writing the Android system font to a canvas and turning it into bitmap bytes
15:11.41joehughesLooks OK at larger sizes, gets crappier as you get smaller
15:11.50javispedrowhich is basically what I'm doing with Qt, only with added damage tracking for speed
15:12.16javispedroI pulled in the MWM fonts, and they lack virtually any character other than [A-Z0-9]
15:12.24javispedroincluding the degree symbol, weirdly, as MWM seems to use it.
15:12.44joehughesThe bitmap fonts they made look nice, but they're either super tiny or big and bold
15:13.13joehughesSo even now that I have them, I still use Droid Sans in things like the Cicada menu list
15:16.01joehughesjavispedro: what do you mean by "damage tracking"?
15:16.26javispedrojoehughes: tracking the actual rows that are changed by the Qt rasterizer/painter
15:16.36javispedroso as not to upload the entire image every time
15:17.42joehughesYeah, I implemented that this morning, it makes a nice difference.  I just did pairs of adjacent rows so far.  Have you tried updating two random rows in the same packet?
15:17.51javispedroyeah, works
15:18.03javispedrohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gyIET0gWJ0
15:18.06javispedrothis was rendered using that
15:18.36javispedrosadly, it is about 2-3 frames per second
15:18.42javispedroconsidering ~50 rows per frame
15:18.56javispedrois more or less the theoretical max refresh speed I calculated on your blog =)
15:19.29joehughesI was just gonna say that wasn't too shabby :]  I don't think it gets any better than that
15:19.46javispedrome neither
15:19.50javispedroeither way, that kills battery fast
15:19.55javispedroso, not much of animations =)
15:20.20joehughesActually, though, I was just thinking this morning about how quickly you could animate 3 frames using the 3 different on-device buffers—may be good for a laugh at some point
15:20.31javispedroyeah
15:20.38javispedroI am thinking that they should do something like cached VNC
15:20.53javispedroand have several of those on-device buffers, and have a CopyRect command to copy a region between buffers
15:21.16javispedrotherefore you could have on buffer with e.g. prerendered characters in your favourite font
15:21.27javispedro*a buffer
15:21.54javispedroOTOH, I think they mentioned the biggest problem is that they've nearly exhausted the MSP430 RAM...
15:21.56joehughesFundamentally, they just don't have a lot of RAM to work with, so I'm not super optimistic about how much general functionality you could squeeze out of this generation
15:22.25javispedrobtw
15:22.27joehughesThough for targeted applications, you could get some fun hacks
15:22.29javispedrowhat's the "Scroll" mode?
15:23.29joehughesYeah, I was wondering about that myself.  I know the MBW-150 could scroll messages on-device, so maybe it's something that works on the analog version?
15:24.00javispedrooh, so anadigi specific..
15:24.45joehughesThe ana-digi version looks nice (the screens are stealth when they're not on), but I'm not so excited about the limited pixels and the display not being on all the time
15:25.29javispedrobeing on all the time is exactly what made me reach my walllet for $200 instead of the $50 liveview =)
15:25.31joehughesAlso, the hands can be spun programmatically, but only forward, and you can't read their position, so that gets rid of  a lot of cute hacks
15:25.59javispedrowith the _excellent_ under the sun visibility of the MW's screen, having the screen quite on is quite a plus
15:26.18javispedros/screen quite on/screen always on/ ;)
15:27.36javispedroI used to have one a anadigi clock that also could spun hands on its own. there was some kinda calibration where you made them point to 12o'clock.
15:28.29joehughesThe reflectivity is a real pain to photograph, though. :]  I was trying to take more Minecraft photos yesterday, and between the reflective MW display, my glossy screen, the brightness difference, and getting the framing right, it was proper juggling
15:29.12joehughesI think I'll just need to paint my walls and ceiling black :]
15:29.28javispedroheh
15:29.40javispedroit helps that the n950 is totally black =)
15:29.59javispedro(but there's that red led...)
15:31.01dm8tbrblack tape ftw
15:31.03joehughesI wonder if there's anything in the firmware code now for reading the light sensor or accelerometer.  It doesn't seem to be in the protocol.
15:33.22javispedrothe protocol does have an accelerometer msg
15:33.25javispedrodidn't try yet
15:33.30javispedrocan't find a good use case for the accel
15:33.44javispedroand, come to think of it, can't find good use for the light sensor either...
15:33.51javispedroinverting the screen doesn't do much good..
15:33.58javispedroand you can't turn on the led via sw..
15:35.25joehughesUltimately, I think it will take some firmware hacking to do anything interesting with the accelerometer.  I think the part can recognize entire gestures on its own, so it's possible that you could create another event for something like the jolt from tapping the face of the watch with your finger
15:38.25javispedroif I get access to firmware hacking, I'll think I'll make it draw a 60x60 analog watch face in the idle screen =)
15:39.17joehughesYou can be like that guy that made 30 different clock faces for the inPulse watch
15:40.38joehughesI was always a little disappointed that people didn't do more interesting things with that one; but then again, it only has a single button for input, and a friend said it was hard to pair
15:42.25javispedrothat, and screen that turns off
15:42.44javispedrobut the inPulse shares a different approach, it's mostly about in-watch apps
15:43.37joehughesWell, is that necessarily the case, or is it just that it's not easy to pair with another device?
15:44.00javispedrotbh dunno, but the official SDK is just a crosscompiler
15:44.03joehughesEither way, it's not super practical as a watch
15:44.13javispedroif someone made an app that allows the watch to talk to the phone, nfi.
15:44.35javispedrothe MSP430 would have been a better choice for that.
15:44.59joehughesI'm curious about the WIMM, since it has a passive display mode and more muscle power.  Looks good for demoing, a little bulky for a watch
15:47.10javispedrothere's also http://www.imwatch.it/
15:47.40javispedroother than being more stylish it's not dissimilar to the inPulse
15:48.17joehughesI've never seen anything other than CG renders of that thing, which makes me suspicious
15:48.34javispedroit's tactile, which is a plus. they say it runs android, which I find hard to believe (and personally, I would find that a disadvantage ;) ).
15:48.40javispedroand battery life is around 3.5 hours of use =)
15:48.54javispedrooh, I could believe it
15:49.02javispedrothey're not doing anything truly out of the world
15:50.07javispedro(except running android on a imx233)
15:52.02javispedrothe battery on the metawatch is sadly not spectacular either, I am pretty much running it to the ground in 24h (but I'm doing heavy BT activity, e.g. many connect/disconnects, animations, etc)
15:52.22joehughesTrue, but the fact that the UI mocks all look like bastardized versions of iOS and that they claim it will pair with both iOS and Android make them less credible.  I'm not aware of any BT hardware that is allowed to pair with both iOS and other things.
15:52.48joehughes(I mean, that does anything more than audio & music control profiles)
15:53.07javispedrojoehughes: oh, of course they're allowed to pair with iOS
15:53.17javispedroit's called the extension device kit iirc and costs many $$$
15:53.43joehughesI was just thinking of the WakeMate and how they had to sell two different SKUs for iOS vs. Android/BB
15:55.44javispedroyou're right in that the UI is visually a clone of iOS, I wonder what they were thinking
15:56.07javispedrothey want Apple to back to PowerPC all while suing ARM? =)
15:56.39javispedrohm, wait
15:56.57javispedronothing to do with ARM =)
15:57.13joehughesSo far, they have proven to me that they have hired some good visual designers to render mockups and make a website.  They are promising an awful lot, but I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they have the skills to pull it off
15:57.46javispedroreminds me of those guys
15:57.47javispedrohttp://www.noteslate.com/
16:08.20joehughesDoing hardware seems to always turn out to be harder than people expect.  Heck, even the MetaWatch guys, with years of experience in the smart watch business, didn't hit their original ship dates.
17:14.19joehughesBTW, I just channeled my forum frustration into creating a blog that pulls together useful resources and fun hacks that have pictures or video: http://retrovirus.com/incr/2011/09/metawatch-hacks-resources/
17:14.51joehugheska010 and javispedro, let me know if you want to be credited differently or whatever
17:16.48javispedronice
17:43.05*** join/#metawatch thescreensavers (~Danny@c-98-254-209-122.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
18:01.16DocScrutinizerjoehughes: making hardware effort always gets severely underestimated - by software centric guys
18:02.00DocScrutinizernobody of the sw camp seems aware what it means when I say "there are no patches for hardware"
18:33.07dm8tbr.oO(green wire *ouch* *ouch* *ouch*)
19:42.12DocScrutinizer?
20:21.12*** join/#metawatch javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro)
22:14.38GeneralAntillesjoehughes, ah, that Hacks article was what ended up selling me on the platform.
22:16.00joehughesGeneralAntilles: cool, hope you find some fun stuff to do with it
22:19.47*** join/#metawatch Digital (63626286@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.98.98.134)
22:20.42GeneralAntillesHopefully javispedro will have done all the heavy lifting by the time mine shows up next month. :/
22:21.02javispedroyou bastard
22:21.11javispedrowell, at least it already sets up the date for you
22:21.23javispedrohope you know how to edit page-long .conf files MWAHAHAHA
22:23.39GeneralAntillesjoehughes, fyi, s/QT Animation/Qt Animation/
22:23.43GeneralAntillesIt's Qt, not QuickTime. ;)
22:24.10GeneralAntillesOoh, hadn't even considered hooking it into the home automation.
22:25.09joehughesthanks, fixed
22:26.01GeneralAntillesjavispedro, do you want to provide a quote for MWKN for the Qt Quick demo?
22:27.33javispedroGeneralAntilles: Something like "Now you have yet another form factor to recreate your QML interface for" ? ;)
22:28.40GeneralAntillesHrm, the quote with the video is fairly workable.
22:30.10joehugheshah!
22:30.28GeneralAntillesjavispedro, yes, though, I think I'll add that.
22:31.14GeneralAntilleschuckles
22:31.52javispedro:)
23:17.08javispedrowoohoo, it already displays unread notification counts =)
23:19.34ka010cool man
23:19.43ka010what are you driving your watch with?
23:20.53javispedroa nokia n950 + my own soft
23:21.10ka010exotic ;)
23:21.38ka010so did you rewrite the whole idle screen or how did you manage to put your info there ?
23:23.09javispedrorewriting
23:23.51ka010cool, loved the animation btw
23:28.48GeneralAntillesjavispedro wins for the week.
23:28.53GeneralAntillesUnless somebody does something cooler
23:28.58GeneralAntillesIn which case they'll win instead.
23:29.34ka010heh
23:29.35javispedrolol
23:57.58*** join/#metawatch DocScrutinizer (~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg)

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