| 00:05.58 | Wizzup | yeah clearly the droid4 does not exist and the pinephone has only been sold and shipped to many thousands people |
| 00:06.03 | Wizzup | but surely it's 'pre order' lol |
| 00:07.28 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@202.168.13.131) |
| 00:07.39 | sunshavi | wizzup: thanks for clarification. Any recommendation for jonwil |
| 00:07.51 | sunshavi | catbutts: this generates a jar on device? |
| 00:07.59 | Maxdamantus | So people are only pining for it? |
| 00:08.27 | Maxdamantus | Oh, they're not pining. |
| 00:09.33 | jonwil | Ok so maybe its not pre-order but the website does say that it wont ship for quite a while. |
| 00:09.46 | jonwil | So the Pinephone isn't really something I can buy right now. |
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| 00:10.08 | Wizzup | the droid4 seems easily obtainable everywhere in the world |
| 00:10.31 | jonwil | Not sure its available in Australia... |
| 00:12.13 | jonwil | Also I can't find any info on what frequency bands it supports (does it even do 4G?) |
| 00:14.39 | CatButts | is there convenient way to debug keyboard mapping? |
| 00:14.51 | CatButts | say one that shows line where parser errors |
| 00:19.31 | Maxdamantus | Indeed, I don't think they're really available here in NZ either. I've had an alert set up for them on the main trading site used for the last few months and have not seen anything. |
| 00:19.52 | Maxdamantus | So would have to just buy them from ebay or something. |
| 00:42.46 | CatButts | https://pastebin.com/0mYxxPe0 hmmmm, my multikey shortcuts are not quite working correctly |
| 00:43.45 | CatButts | holding down both modifier keys and pressing "z", then "x" triggers ")}" and ")}" |
| 00:45.26 | Maxdamantus | So it produces the same thing twice? |
| 00:46.13 | CatButts | yes |
| 00:46.21 | Maxdamantus | fwiw, I disabled the OSK that pops up for some reason to do with modifier keys not behaving as I wanted, can't quite remember what the problem was though. |
| 00:47.01 | jonwil | https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1570414#post1570414 |
| 00:47.12 | jonwil | Made a forum post asking for recommendations. |
| 00:47.34 | Wizzup | Maxdamantus: the ones I saw on ebay ship worldwide |
| 00:47.54 | Maxdamantus | Wizzup: yeah, as long as you pay $70 to ship it to NZ. |
| 00:48.11 | Maxdamantus | Probably similar for Australia. |
| 00:48.53 | jonwil | Hopefully I can find some advice and find a device that's worth buying and don't need to go with "buy the least-locked-down Android phone I can find" and live with it. |
| 00:50.18 | jonwil | Oh and for reasons I don't want to go into, buying from eBay is not an option (Amazon yes but not eBay) |
| 00:50.49 | Maxdamantus | Wizzup: hm, which ones are you seeing on ebay? |
| 00:51.36 | Wizzup | btw, talk.maemo.org is still not working on http, only https |
| 00:51.44 | Wizzup | Maxdamantus: I saw a few, but actually those were not shipping worldwide |
| 00:51.59 | Wizzup | Maxdamantus: if you're interested in development of some kind I might be able to send one to you when I get home a week from now |
| 00:52.07 | Wizzup | zzz |
| 00:56.27 | CatButts | same |
| 00:57.09 | CatButts | well, on the bright side, I have all my braces |
| 00:57.26 | CatButts | brackets and paranthesis |
| 01:22.40 | Maxdamantus | parentheses* |
| 01:23.35 | jonwil | At least I do have a phone I can use for the short term to handle calls and SMS and the basics (*its a no-name dirt cheap Android hing) |
| 01:25.06 | brolin_empey | Saying that Web sites do not work on the N900 seems to be conflating specific software used on the N900 with the N900, which is a model of computer that can run multiple operating systems even if all of them are based upon a Linux kernel. |
| 01:26.07 | jonwil | In any case my phone is not worth getting fixed (the "no sim cellmo issue" being the other big problem besides the charge port) |
| 01:28.48 | jonwil | I did get about a decade worth of use out of it which for a smartphone is pretty good. |
| 01:28.55 | brolin_empey | Anyway, the search function of the Amazon.ca Web site seems to be broken for a query of âC60M1-Iâ, which is a model of Mini-ITX motherboard from Asus. |
| 01:32.08 | jonwil | If the Neo900 project hadn't effectively died (due to circumstances beyond the control of the people on the project IIRC including some BS from PayPal) then it might well have been an option to replace my N900 with. |
| 01:53.18 | brolin_empey | jonwil: Apparently the Nexus One can run Debian GNU+Linux as the host OS but I do not know if cellular telephony and SMS/MMS are usable on GNU+Linux. Yes, I realise that the Nexus One lacks an integrated hardware keyboard but maybe it will still suffice for you? |
| 01:54.16 | jonwil | Whilst a Linux phone would be nice, if I can't find a Linux phone that's got the other things I need I have no objection to Android as long as its not so locked down (e.g. can |
| 01:54.21 | jonwil | can't install new kernel etc) |
| 01:59.30 | brolin_empey | jonwil: You can replace the stock OS on the Samsung Galaxy Note 3, at least the SM-N900W8 (Qualcomm Snapdragon-based variant for Canada, among other regions) variant I have, which I think implies that you can use a custom kernel build. |
| 02:00.43 | jonwil | But actually finding a Note 3 here in Australia will be hard. |
| 02:01.05 | jonwil | Unless its a really really good pick, I intend to buy new rather than 2nd hand. |
| 02:08.11 | brolin_empey | jonwil: I do not know if the stock OS can be replaced on the Samsung Exynos-based variants of the Galaxy Note 3, which is why I specified one of the literally at least twenty variants of the Galaxy Note 3 instead of just saying âGalaxy Note 3â. I do not see why new versus used matters in this case unless the IMEI or similar has been blacklisted due to a previous user of the computer. The battery is easily removable and replaceable (correct spelling?) |
| 02:08.12 | brolin_empey | on the Galaxy Note 4 and earlier so you do not have to worry about the condition of the included battery if you buy the computer used. Well, actually in your case maybe you do if you refuse to use eBay because I bought both my Galaxy Note 3 and all of the batteries for it on eBay so I do not know if these products are available without using eBay. Why would finding a Galaxy Note 3 be difficult in Australia? |
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| 02:16.44 | brolin_empey | https://brisbane.craigslist.org/ seems to have very little for sale but I do not know what is more popular than Craigslist in Australia? |
| 02:17.56 | brolin_empey | I mean very little of anything for sale, not only of this type of item. |
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| 02:20.32 | jonwil | I don't really want to buy a used Android device (regardless of quality) in any case |
| 02:20.48 | jonwil | I would rather buy new unless its something special and unique (which anything Galaxy is not) |
| 02:21.49 | jonwil | Get something with more modern cellular band support and better WiFi and stuff. |
| 02:24.20 | brolin_empey | The Galaxy Note 4 and earlier are special if you want an easily removable and replaceable battery and maybe also if you want to root the stock OS or replace the OS but I do not know about the feasibility of these modifications on the Galaxy Note 5 and later because the difficult to access and remove battery is a dealbreaker for me. |
| 02:26.01 | brolin_empey | I meant easily accessible and removable battery and to replace the stock OS with an unofficial/community/aftermarket OS. |
| 02:28.13 | jonwil | Galaxy Note is too large for me anyway, I have smaller hands. |
| 02:28.23 | jonwil | So any of the Note models just wont work as a phone for me. |
| 02:32.12 | brolin_empey | Then what about the (HTC) Nexus One? It is from 2009 or 2010 so I do not know if its cellular connectivity is still available in Australia? |
| 02:32.43 | jonwil | Doesn't do 4G so no good for the future |
| 02:32.57 | jonwil | 3G is still here but not forever |
| 02:33.03 | brolin_empey | 4G as in LTE or LTE-A? |
| 02:33.08 | jonwil | So I want 4G for future proofing |
| 02:34.41 | jonwil | According to the carrier they use LTE on 2100/1800/850 |
| 02:36.13 | brolin_empey | Is the Galaxy S5 sufficiently smaller than the Galaxy Note series? I am almost certain the Galaxy S5 still has an easily accessible and removable battery but the Galaxy S6 no longer does. |
| 02:37.38 | jonwil | As I said, I dont want to buy used and a replacable battery isn't a feature I care enough about to make something special. |
| 02:37.46 | jonwil | As good as they are. |
| 02:44.48 | brolin_empey | Anyway, I just confirmed that my memory was accurate about the removability of the battery in the Galaxy S5 and Galaxy S6. If you plan to use your next handheld computer for a decade then you will need to replace the battery multiple times. How do you know that being able to easily access and remove the battery is not important to you if you have had this ability for at least a decade? |
| 02:49.38 | jonwil | I am not necessarily buying a phone that will get used for a decade. |
| 02:50.21 | jonwil | If someone had told me when I bought it that I would still be using my N900 a decade later I wouldn't have believed them. |
| 02:51.20 | jonwil | If its something unique then sure it might be worth buying to keep for a long time but if its just Android I want new and not used and don't mind so much if its not going to last me 10 years. |
| 04:43.51 | brolin_empey | In my experience at least with the Galaxy Note 3 and the LG G5 that replaced the Galaxy Note 3 in early 2019, I need to replace the battery every year or two, sometimes more than once per year. |
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| 05:49.59 | sicelo | tmo is blocking me :p |
| 05:51.04 | sicelo | anyway, i don't think droid 4 is a solution for jonwil because android is outdated and slow on it. maemo leste is still alpha (or beta) |
| 05:51.50 | clort | jonwil: droid4 comes after n900 |
| 05:52.45 | clort | take n900. make every parameter a little bit better. take almost nothing away. voila droid4 |
| 05:53.33 | jonwil | Droid4 hardware might be good but the OS is ancient and slow (I dont think there is a modern Android or Linux for it that's actually usable as a daily driver) |
| 05:53.44 | jonwil | Leste certainly isn't ready for daily-driver use |
| 05:53.45 | sicelo | maybe samsung a5 (2015) could be an option. modern enough to run android well, amd linux mainline kernel has support for it, so if you feel like hacking away on it, it's doable. i believe running leste on it is 100% possible |
| 05:53.50 | clort | jonwil: so put maemo-leste on it |
| 05:54.02 | jonwil | leste isn't ready for daily-driver use |
| 05:54.10 | jonwil | even for linux-geek-daily-driver use |
| 05:54.21 | clort | help make it so :) |
| 05:54.33 | jonwil | I don't have the time right now to hack on Leste :) |
| 05:54.38 | jonwil | I need something that will " |
| 05:54.45 | jonwil | that will work out of the box |
| 05:54.56 | sicelo | the A5 just doesn't have a keyboard (like the pp) |
| 05:55.01 | clort | that will put YOU in a box then |
| 05:55.10 | jonwil | Be that modern Android or be that something Linux that's actually ready for prime time |
| 05:55.41 | jonwil | A physical keyboard isn't a must-have actually, I would like one but don't NEED one. |
| 05:55.44 | clort | these buzzwords are also things i do not need |
| 05:56.30 | sicelo | what buzzwords? |
| 05:56.35 | sicelo | https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a5-6761.php |
| 05:57.11 | clort | 'prime time' |
| 05:57.16 | jonwil | At least I don't have to make a decision right away. In a previous situation where my N900 was having issues, I bought a backup phone. (basically the cheapest pre-paid option I could find at that time that was compatible with my carrier) |
| 05:58.01 | jonwil | I am not someone that can afford to have a phone where the OS is years out of date or still in beta. I don't have the time to hack on a beta OS. |
| 05:58.59 | sicelo | alright. best wishes on your search. it's sad that there aren't too many options |
| 05:59.48 | sicelo | oh, there's also the FxTec phones. They have Android with a qwerty keyboard, and are made by a fellow tmo'er iirc |
| 06:00.34 | jonwil | If the phone I am looking for is out there, I am sure someone on tmo will post in the forum thread I made... :) |
| 06:00.38 | sicelo | i think they were a but pricey (for me), but check them out. may fit your budget. |
| 06:04.10 | clort | He didn't need this, he thought to himself, this of all things he had no need of. He hadn't asked to be here. If he was asked at this moment where he would like to be he would probably have said he would like to be lying on the beach with at least fifty beautiful women and a small team of experts working out new ways they could be nice to him... |
| 06:05.00 | sicelo | ? |
| 06:05.04 | jonwil | Definitely out of my price range given I could get a fairly decent plain Android phone for around half what the FxTech would cost me. |
| 06:05.08 | clort | quote from THHGTTG |
| 06:05.15 | jonwil | No way I can justify spending over a grand for a phone. |
| 06:05.28 | jonwil | Not when its clear I don't have to. |
| 06:05.31 | clort | oflag=direct avoids dirty buffer constipation when you dd partitions!! |
| 06:10.21 | CatButts | it occured to me about the fn+shift z and x producing outputting same double keys |
| 06:10.45 | CatButts | what if ghosting of keyboard hardware |
| 06:11.57 | CatButts | *z then x |
| 06:12.11 | Maxdamantus | Doubt it. I suspect it's some weird hildon IME behaviour again. |
| 06:12.19 | Maxdamantus | disabled that. |
| 06:13.57 | CatButts | I may want to look into that |
| 06:18.09 | Maxdamantus | 20:03 < Maxdamantus> Just have to remove /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/immodules/hildon-im-module.so |
| 06:18.13 | Maxdamantus | I guess that's how I disabled that. |
| 06:19.15 | CatButts | does this disable function/shift key layering entirely? |
| 06:19.49 | Maxdamantus | It disables the OSK and the sticky keys behaviour. |
| 06:20.03 | Maxdamantus | But it should enable use of a regular compose key. |
| 06:20.54 | Maxdamantus | `sym + ctrl` for me works like a normal Xorg compose key, which didn't work with HIM enabled. |
| 06:21.31 | Maxdamantus | er, rather, the `blue + ctrl` |
| 06:21.44 | Maxdamantus | can't remember what the blue symbol is .. my key is worn out. |
| 06:22.46 | CatButts | the one in middle left? |
| 06:22.58 | Maxdamantus | Yes. |
| 06:23.12 | CatButts | it's diagonal arrow up/right |
| 06:23.44 | CatButts | does disabling involve commenting out a config file, or do I rename the .so? |
| 06:23.56 | CatButts | *commenting out a line of config file |
| 06:24.58 | Maxdamantus | I'm not sure what refers to it. I think I just moved that file. I don't currently see anything else in that directory, so not sure if something scans everything in the "immodules" directory. |
| 06:25.32 | Maxdamantus | and you'll probably need to `killall hildon-input-method` for it to take effect. |
| 06:25.59 | Maxdamantus | (it hildon-input-method should relaunch, but it won't be able to load that HIM module. |
| 06:26.02 | Maxdamantus | ) |
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| 06:42.22 | sicelo | The double key in zx and jk is hardware. it's mentioned in the wiki |
| 06:50.06 | sicelo | It also affects other OSes (so not exlusive to maemo/hildon) |
| 06:51.13 | Maxdamantus | Oh yeah, I get it as well. |
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| 06:51.52 | Maxdamantus | Guess I've never tried using double modifiers with those keys. |
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| 07:13.30 | brolin_empey | sicelo: Maybe I am being too literal but I thought all of the OSes for the N900 are based upon the Linux kernel? |
| 07:16.29 | brolin_empey | Maxdamantus: At least in my experience, it is too easy to scratch off the paint (paint?) from the keys on the integrated hardware keyboard of the N900. |
| 07:20.40 | sicelo | i don't see how your kernel comment is relevant to what was being discussed |
| 07:21.28 | brolin_empey | Eh, I am looking at the integrated hardware keyboard of my N900 for the first time in months and notice that apparently only the black background, not the white/blue legends, has worn off on some of the keys. |
| 07:23.45 | Maxdamantus | Well, the white can't really wear off, because that's presumably just where they haven't put any paint. |
| 07:24.41 | brolin_empey | sicelo: âIt also affects other OSes (so not exlusive to maemo/hildon)â I thought the behaviour discussed could be part of the Linux kernel if all of the OSes used on the N900 use a Linux kernel. |
| 07:24.46 | Maxdamantus | I think the wear mostly depends on use. I think in my case I've only really caused the "sym" key to wear our, because I press that with my thumb nail. |
| 07:24.57 | clort | it would be nice if talk.maemo.org worked with dillo |
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| 07:24.59 | clort | for read-only |
| 07:25.01 | Maxdamantus | The blue key on this keyboard was already worn when I got it. |
| 07:26.31 | sicelo | what's painful is when they come off |
| 07:26.50 | clort | i got a nice keyboard here |
| 07:26.55 | clort | not worn |
| 07:27.02 | Maxdamantus | Indeed, that started to happen on my other device. |
| 07:27.19 | brolin_empey | Maxdamantus: On my keyboard, the northeast arrow legend is white instead of blue. |
| 07:27.40 | Maxdamantus | They seem to mostly stick back on with silicone, but more and more of them were coming off, so I just swapped the keypads around when I had to disassemble my main device. |
| 07:27.41 | clort | the international n900 keyboards are sadness |
| 07:28.12 | clort | droid 4 + maemo leste rules the shell with 5-row keyboard |
| 07:28.27 | clort | we don't need OSK |
| 07:29.13 | MaemoButts | renaming away the hildon ime .so didn't fix the z and x. But it did get rid of sticky keys. |
| 07:36.48 | Maxdamantus | Right, sicelo pointed out that it is a hardware thing. It'll be a rollover limitation. |
| 07:37.41 | MaemoButts | so. ghosting |
| 07:38.13 | Maxdamantus | Oh yeah, that's what it's called. |
| 08:09.20 | enyc | clort: n900 + improvements seems to avoid OSK need but not tried to internationalize over english |
| 08:10.15 | enyc | clort: https://ec2.sheer.us/~enyc/n900-kbd/ |
| 08:11.30 | enyc | MaemoButts: yes, the twl4030 driver was disabling possibly ghosted keystates overzealously, this was patched-out in leste n900 kernel |
| 08:12.55 | brolin_empey | Maxdamantus: http://brolin.be/graphics/20201205_brolin-N900 |
| 08:15.24 | enyc | brolin_empey: wow how long did that take to wear-out that far? |
| 08:16.22 | enyc | brolin_empey: hrrm is that some sort of usb-cable with both micro and mini cables on the end? |
| 08:20.04 | clort | wow |
| 08:23.42 | MaemoButts | tcc doesn't seem to come with headers and libs by default. oops |
| 08:39.02 | brolin_empey | enyc: Keyboard wear: I do not remember but I only used the N900 from 2010 to 2014, when the Geeksphone Revolution was released. Since then I switched to the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 in 2015, then to the LG G5 in 2019. USB cable: Yes, it is a combination cable from StarTech that has both mini and micro plugs, only one to be used at once, on one end of the cable. I recommend it over normal cables with only a mini xor micro plug on one end but, unfortunately, |
| 08:39.02 | brolin_empey | at my office we have a box full of mini-only cables and few spare cables with a micro connector. |
| 08:41.16 | brolin_empey | The same mini/micro combination cable is available in black too. |
| 08:43.29 | enyc | brolin_empey: i see! useful o know that was a startech tnhing! only see silly fraglie roll-up-retractable version of now |
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| 08:48.19 | Maxdamantus | Presumably you could also use it as an OTG cable. |
| 08:52.07 | brolin_empey | enyc: I do not know if it matters but I think all or at least most of the StarTech products I have were bought from Synnex Canada, not directly from StarTech. |
| 08:53.13 | clort | i wore through a n810 keyboard |
| 08:53.23 | clort | it helps to clean thumbs of grit |
| 08:54.36 | brolin_empey | Maxdamantus: The other end of this combination cable is a normal full-size USB Type A plug, not a socket. I mean the other end of the cable has only one connector, like a normal USB cable. |
| 08:55.20 | Maxdamantus | brolin_empey: right, but you could probably connect a mini-USB device to the N900 using host mode on the N900. |
| 08:55.37 | Maxdamantus | (and nothing plugged into the type A plug, except maybe a power source) |
| 09:00.17 | brolin_empey | Apparently the StarTech model name for this cable is USBHAUBMB3 and apparently we have not bought this cable since 2017 so maybe StarTech has discontinued it since then. |
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| 09:07.13 | brolin_empey | Yes, apparently StarTech has discontinued this cable: https://www.startech.com/en-us/cables/usbhaubmb3#support--section-downloads |
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| 10:01.00 | enyc | brolin_empey: i also suspect mini-usb things are no longer so easily ound and so-on |
| 10:01.17 | enyc | brolin_empey: e.g. startech might tend to be maknig micro-C hybrids, and so-on!. |
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| 11:21.27 | clort | is there a status bar plugin for wifi that shows current ip - last three digits? |
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| 11:23.33 | sicelo | there is desktop widget |
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| 11:36.20 | clort | with 7-pixel wide font i think there is space sicelo http://0x0.st/ihZP.png |
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| 18:46.06 | CatButts | maybe if my keypad erodes like brolin's, I can have my own layout, without existing shitty 2arrow layout symbols interfering with my typing |
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| 18:48.24 | CatButts | I am not to eager to memorize, though |
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| 20:01.54 | brolin_empey | clort: You seem to mean the decimal/base 10 representation of the last octet/byte of the IPv4 address of the Wireless LAN interface and seem to assume that only IPv4, not IPv6, will be used for this interface. I do not know if Maemo supports IPv6 because I do not use IPv6 in practice. |
| 20:03.14 | clort | it does but ipv6 addr won't meaningfully fit |
| 20:03.40 | clort | only useful if you're in a /4 net, and want to see which number you got in the known network |
| 20:04.21 | clort | inet6 works fine |
| 20:05.44 | brolin_empey | OK. |
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| 20:54.37 | bencoh | ll/49 |
| 20:54.40 | bencoh | woops |
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| 22:54.23 | sixwheeledbeast | ipv6 was added with cssu-kernl/kp |
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