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| 01:19.58 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf (or ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher) sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 08:28.07 | brolin_empey | What is television? ;-) |
| 08:38.00 | brolin_empey | You know you are a computer enthusiast when you buy an x86 handheld computer because you want your server, desktop/portable, and mobile computers to all use the same computer architecture? |
| 08:39.31 | KotCzarny | not true |
| 08:39.45 | KotCzarny | you are x86 enthusiast |
| 08:42.46 | KotCzarny | and x86 for mobile device isnt super bright idea |
| 08:43.57 | brolin_empey | You know you work in the electronics/embedded computer industry when you have memorised all of the PCI/USB vendor identifier, MAC OUI, stock ticker symbol, Internet domain name, and possibly more identifers for multiple companies? |
| 08:45.55 | KotCzarny | it's called professional experience |
| 08:49.54 | brolin_empey | You know you are a computer/electronics/technology enthusiast when you have memorised the meaning of most of the acronyms, initialisms, and other abbreviations in the boot messages (complete output of dmesg command after booting) of GNU+Linux booted on a somewhat modern x86 computer? |
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| 08:56.14 | brolin_empey | Seriously, though, is there a small (Mini-ITX size or smaller) and low-cost solid-state x86 (at least 80686, preferably (80)x86-64) SBC that can (easily) boot from a (2.5-inch or smaller) SATA HDD? |
| 08:56.27 | KotCzarny | sure |
| 08:56.28 | KotCzarny | plenty |
| 08:56.59 | brolin_empey | I mean with the HDD connected via SATA, not via a USB bridge/converter. |
| 09:00.19 | brolin_empey | I realised that a single chassis fan in one of the ATX tower computers we have always running at my company or my home apparently uses almost one watt of electricity. :-/ |
| 09:01.19 | KotCzarny | oy vey |
| 09:01.38 | KotCzarny | check your atx power 'off' drain |
| 09:05.12 | brolin_empey | Well, I mean according to a simple, possibly naive (spelling?) calculation based on the ratings on a label on the fan; I did not measure the actual load. |
| 09:13.07 | freemangordon | it rarely runs at full speed |
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| 09:14.13 | freemangordon | unless your chassis is very dusty or ambient temperature is very high |
| 09:16.08 | brolin_empey | Anyway, at my company we currently have at least two server computers using an HDD and at least two client computers using an SSD that are currently using a microATX or full-size ATX x86 motherboard that would use less space and energy and be silent if I could replace the fanful ATX computers with small solid-state x86 SBCs but the server computers still use an HDD instead of an SSD. The OS on all of these computers is Debian GNU+Linux; moving the OS |
| 09:16.08 | brolin_empey | installation to a different computer with a different hardware configuration is probably easy based on my personal experience, unlike the âfunâ of trying to move a Windows installation to a different hardware configuration. |
| 09:17.23 | freemangordon | brolin_empey: keep in mind that servers are not called "servers" just for the marketing reasoning ;) |
| 09:18.35 | freemangordon | unless by saying "server computers" you mean desktop tower PCs with some RAM added :) |
| 09:19.26 | Enrico_Menotti | freemangordon Hello, how are you? I've been thinking a lot about our last conversation, in December, about Maemo Leste and how I promised I'd have tested it. I'm sorry I did not come up again with it - things went differently from what I expected, and I did not find the time yet to play with the N900 again. |
| 09:19.45 | Enrico_Menotti | May I get an update about the current situation of Maemo Leste? |
| 09:20.16 | freemangordon | for workstations there are some DELL PCs with I guess atoms ans SSD inside, fanless |
| 09:20.24 | freemangordon | Enrico_Menotti: sure you may |
| 09:21.05 | freemangordon | https://maemo-leste.github.io/ |
| 09:22.32 | brolin_empey | freemangordon: Yes, my company is a small business. These server computers are Socket-754 desktop motherboards (Asus K8N from around 2004) with single-core AMD Sempron CPUs, non-ECC RAM, and client SATA HDDs. |
| 09:22.58 | KotCzarny | fmg: server means reliability |
| 09:23.03 | freemangordon | mhm |
| 09:23.05 | KotCzarny | so usually ecc, redundance etc |
| 09:23.14 | KotCzarny | anything else is just pc with some software |
| 09:23.42 | freemangordon | right, thats why "11,18,33) freemangordon: unless by saying "server computers" you mean desktop tower PCs with some RAM added :)" |
| 09:23.51 | KotCzarny | ;) |
| 09:24.31 | Enrico_Menotti | freemangordon Wow, thanks a lot. The thing is getting very user friendly, I see: I mean, info seems to be gathered together with a central starting point, very different from what I've been used to find last year, namely spending a lot of time to find things all over the net. |
| 09:24.57 | Enrico_Menotti | What about phone facilities? Is it reasonable to expect the modem to work? |
| 09:25.07 | freemangordon | brolin_empey: no matter how small your business is, I would recommend to spend some cash on a real server |
| 09:25.15 | freemangordon | Enrico_Menotti: please, read the whole site |
| 09:25.39 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok, I'll do, thanks. |
| 09:25.39 | freemangordon | brolin_empey: and use virtualization |
| 09:26.28 | freemangordon | trust me, it pays off in long term |
| 09:30.32 | KotCzarny | re: servers: https://i.imgur.com/jw9H2.jpg |
| 09:31.19 | freemangordon | brolin_empey: see that http://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/gateways-embedded-computing/embedded-box-pc-3000/spd/embedded-box-pc-3000/ctoi3000stdus, I think there are even smaller but can;t remember the model |
| 09:32.07 | freemangordon | KotCzarny: :D |
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| 09:33.06 | Enrico_Menotti | freemangordon Ok, found the info. So no phone calls yet. On the other hand, I see there is interest about Anbox. That's very exciting - I was trying to run Anbox over Devuan on my old laptop a few months ago, but stopped at the point where some graphics extension was needed, and my old Savage graphics chipset didn't have that. |
| 09:33.39 | Enrico_Menotti | Also I see there's the maemo-leste channel here on IRC. Will join that. |
| 09:35.44 | Enrico_Menotti | Did the join. freemangordon , thanks a lot for all the info. I'll try to find out some time to be back on the game. |
| 09:36.40 | brolin_empey | Enrico_Menotti: Welcome to the monolithic hardware design of notebook computers, where a notebook computer from the 2010s is still less modular than an original IBM Personal Computer from 1981 in terms of the ability to change the internal video controller. |
| 09:37.56 | Enrico_Menotti | brolin_empey :) |
| 09:39.48 | Enrico_Menotti | brolin_empey Actually, changing the video chipset is not that difficult. You just need to change also some of the surrounding hardware as well. Namely, the whole computer. :/ |
| 09:51.56 | brolin_empey | freemangordon: We do not need actual server hardware for our small-scale use case. Even a Pentium III computer will probably still suffice for these servers. We have an actual server computer, specifically a Dell PowerEdge 2950, but it is used as a software build server, not a general server, and is powered on only when it is needed. |
| 09:53.05 | KotCzarny | brolin_empey: check out banana pi m1 |
| 09:53.28 | KotCzarny | but better espressobin + pcie-sata card |
| 09:55.33 | brolin_empey | KotCzarny: I thought that *Pi is ARM, not x86. |
| 09:55.45 | KotCzarny | so what? it runs debian just fine |
| 09:55.58 | KotCzarny | unless you do some custom software |
| 09:56.07 | KotCzarny | which still can compile if no blobs |
| 09:59.36 | brolin_empey | KotCzarny: My company actually has its own ARM Linux hardware + software platform. I thought I expressed that I want an x86 SBC because I want to continue using the same physical drive with the same OS installation. |
| 10:06.10 | brolin_empey | As far as I know, there is not an automated way to convert a GNU+Linux installation from one computer architecture to another even if the conversion can be done manually. Unfortunately, the normal ELF as used by current Linux supports native code for only one architecture per file, unlike Mac OS X with Mach-O, where a single executable file can contain native code for multiple architectures, in this case both PowerPC and x86. |
| 10:13.35 | brolin_empey | The Portable Executable format used by Windows NT, which has always run on real hardware using multiple ISAs, and Chicago-architecture Windows (Windows 4.x), which gained some of the benefits of Windows NT but is still limited to x86 like Windows 3.x and earlier, seems to have this same limitation as the normal ELF currently used by Linux. |
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| 10:21.07 | brolin_empey | My point in saying that my company has its own ARM Linux platform was mainly that I work as a system/network administrator in the electronics/embedded computer industry, so I know more than you seem to think I know in this case. |
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| 10:26.01 | brolin_empey | <brolin_empey> Seriously, though, is there a small (Mini-ITX size or smaller) and low-cost solid-state x86 (at least 80686, preferably (80)x86-64) SBC that can (easily) boot from a (2.5-inch or smaller) SATA HDD? |
| 10:26.01 | brolin_empey | <KotCzarny> sure |
| 10:26.01 | brolin_empey | <KotCzarny> plenty |
| 10:26.01 | brolin_empey | <brolin_empey> I mean with the HDD connected via SATA, not via a USB bridge/converter. |
| 10:30.30 | brolin_empey | I know that a Mini-ITX computer, such as the DFI BT101, can be used for this purpose but is there a lower cost and possibly smaller /x86/ SBC with the same ability? |
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| 10:56.14 | brolin_empey | <KotCzarny> and x86 for mobile device isnt super bright idea |
| 10:56.14 | brolin_empey | I do not see what is wrong with this combination. I need to use x86 for my primary computer whether it is stationary or portable but not mobile; consequently, using x86 for my mobile computer too has benefits in practice, such as the ability to use the same OS installation as on my stationary and portable computers. |
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| 11:02.22 | brolin_empey | Besides, the Acorn RISC Machine is the British Invasion of the microprocessor instruction set architectures. ;-) |
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| 11:55.35 | Hurrian | brolin_empey: LattePanda? |
| 11:56.43 | KotCzarny | https://www.board-db.org/search.php?q=&ram_min=&cpu_speed_min=&cpu_cores=&cpu_arch=x86&price_min=&price_max=&storage_min=&gpio_min=&usb_min=&type=&dim_max_1=&dim_max_2=&weight=&sata=on&lan_speed=0&order=price&order_d=a |
| 11:56.46 | KotCzarny | 21 results |
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| 12:16.43 | brolin_empey | The âweightâ parameter should be named âmassâ, otherwise a computer used with low to no gravity (is literally no gravity possible? I am not a(n astro)physicist.) could accurately have a value of zero for that parameter. |
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| 12:20.01 | brolin_empey | My primary computer has only 8 GiB of main memory but has over 12 GiB of RAM due to RAM on the video card and other peripherals. |
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| 12:52.18 | M4rtinK | brolin_empey: sure, in general sense - free fall or being far from any big body of mass should be enough for that |
| 12:53.45 | M4rtinK | brolin_empey: on the other hand, if you want to be very exact, any body exerts gravity to any other, so if you have anything physical close by it's affecting the thing by it's gravity |
| 12:54.04 | M4rtinK | eq any hypothetical space ship or even any atmosphere inside it |
| 12:54.24 | KotCzarny | and so far gravitional force extends to infinity, or there were some new insights? |
| 13:30.54 | M4rtinK | not sure at the moment |
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| 13:31.16 | M4rtinK | but given that stuff in galaxies generally orbits the central black hole |
| 13:31.31 | M4rtinK | and galaxies interact gravitationally |
| 13:31.39 | M4rtinK | the range seems to be quite big in any case |
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| 16:34.11 | Juesto | ~cssu |
| 16:34.11 | infobot | methinks cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) |
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| 17:53.41 | sunshavi | ++++++++ |
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| 18:09.31 | sunshavi | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |
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| 20:59.38 | Juesto | without a device, what i can do to contribute to maemo? |
| 21:00.02 | Juesto | feels stupid |
| 21:00.27 | KotCzarny | donate |
| 21:00.36 | KotCzarny | there are threads on tmo with links |
| 21:00.52 | KotCzarny | even donating to server costs helps |
| 21:01.21 | Juesto | no online money, sadly |
| 21:01.29 | Juesto | wish i could |
| 21:01.29 | KotCzarny | donat offline then |
| 21:01.38 | Juesto | not really something |
| 21:02.54 | Juesto | enyc: ensuring latest information is there, fixing dead links, etc |
| 21:08.47 | enyc | Juesto: to an extent that can be done... but i feel its' hard to 'review' except by those with knowledge of all of it... |
| 21:08.59 | Juesto | oh right |
| 21:09.06 | enyc | Juesto: those who know, will know which bits are stil lrelevant or not, etc etc |
| 21:09.08 | enyc | bit of a mess |
| 21:09.19 | KotCzarny | just get a device |
| 21:09.20 | enyc | https://github.com/maemo-leste/bugtracker/issues/101 |
| 21:09.25 | KotCzarny | and become a tester |
| 21:09.27 | Juesto | derp |
| 21:09.29 | Juesto | oh well |
| 21:09.40 | Juesto | sigh |
| 21:10.00 | enyc | Juesto: first comment explains why |
| 21:10.21 | Juesto | alright |
| 21:10.25 | enyc | "We already have https://wiki.maemo.org/ but this would need to be reworked drastically to indicate what information does not apply to Leste. This is already an issue for Fremantle as there are some pages which only apply to Chinook, Diablo, etc. but nothing to indicate that. It's a bit of a mess to be honest" |
| 21:11.04 | enyc | i essenitalyl uspport atht, better to spend work/effort on new system, in this case. I appreciate too m any forks/sources can be a bad thing, but in this instalnce i agree with the #101 plan |
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| 21:11.38 | Juesto | alright |
| 21:11.42 | Juesto | yes |
| 21:11.58 | Juesto | beyond leste, the existing wiki still needs fixing |
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