IRC log for #maemo on 20180305

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00:03.16JuestoOksanaa: remember opera? that one does well too
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00:51.58Maxdamantusprimarily uses opera (opera mobile that is (renders on-device), not opera mini or whatever it's called (renders on opera's servers))
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01:25.17*** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf (or ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher) sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet
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01:41.56Juestomini renders on their servers!?
01:42.32Juestoand what's transmitted to clients then?
02:09.48Juestosixth maemo is harmattan
02:11.19Juestopfft
02:11.30Juestowtf some people
02:11.36Juestothere's also mer !
02:11.37MaxdamantusJuesto: aiui it's some combination of images and text.
02:11.51Juestohmm
02:12.06MaxdamantusJuesto: but the client doesn't need to do layout computation etc
02:12.45Juestoah
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04:55.48OksanaaIs there a leste image for Allwinner A33 tablet?
05:21.06DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: forget about systemd on any maemo that used ohm(?) managed cgroups, systemd wants to rape those and doesn't work without exclusive control over them afaik
05:22.06DocScrutinizer05ooh sixwheeledbeast beat me on it
05:26.46DocScrutinizer05iirc system D even just segfaults when you try to start it (PID1, remember?) on a kernel without cgroups support
05:30.25DocScrutinizer05http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
05:31.01DocScrutinizer05>>Unchecked null pointer dereferencing in PID 1 not considered a serious issue - "To make this work we'd need a patch, as nobody of us tests this.", "I will not work on this" - Systemd requires cgroups and segfaults if there is no cgroups support.<<
05:32.23DocScrutinizer05https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589
05:34.17DocScrutinizer05https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589#c4
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05:39.53Maxdamantusto be fair, I'm pretty sure you can still create your own cgroups alongside systemd.
05:41.11MaxdamantusI'm not too familiar with them, though I'm fairly sure I tried that a few years ago and it didn't seem like my cgroup would have interferred with systemd's ones or vice versa.
05:44.13Maxdamantushttps://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Cgroups#Ad-hoc_groups
05:45.15OksanaaStill, init system should not require this, that and everything? https://www.heise.de/forum/iX/News-Kommentare/Red-Hat-Enterprise-Linux-for-SAP-Solutions/Neulich-auf-einem-RedHat-Server/posting-31123843/show/
05:45.46MaxdamantusI agree with that, though the other software should also generally not care.
05:46.06MaxdamantusI'm also not familiar with ohmd, but it sounds like that probably relies on cgroups as well.
05:46.30Maxdamantusand I imagine if it doesn't work alongside systemd, it's probably because ohmd is trying to control systemd's cgroups.
05:47.49OksanaaAt least, ohmd doesn't try to be an init system at the same time :-)
05:48.30Oksanaadoesn't understand cgroups well enough to know if it makes sense to "grant some daemon exclusive access to this functionality"
05:52.09KotCzarnyit would be like creating firewalld that takes exclusive control of iptables, networking, app network rights, that will run in init 1, had a lot of bugs, 'simplified' config for users while at the same time made it more complicated, required bunch of custom binaries to control etc
05:52.49KotCzarnyi'm still amazed those guys didnt went that way yet
05:53.55siceloJuesto: mer was not Nokia's project and so doesn't count as a 'Maemo.' I don5 recall that it even used Hildon
05:54.28DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: oh they didn't? are you sure?
05:54.40KotCzarnydont know, havent checked
05:54.51KotCzarnybut i suspect it would make some news and fuss
05:54.57DocScrutinizer05I think system D ate iptables
05:55.52DocScrutinizer05networkd anybody?
05:56.17DocScrutinizer05s/firealld/networkd/
05:56.43DocScrutinizer05https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=systemd-networkd-IP-Forward
05:57.19JuestoOksanaa: nothing about allwinner a33 tablet
05:57.22Juestoyet
05:57.43Juestosicelo: oh... derp
05:57.53KotCzarnyeh
05:58.49sicelo:-)
05:58.56DocScrutinizer05>>The firewall manipulation helpers are used for establishing NAT rules. This support in systemd is provided by libiptc, the library used for communicating with the Linux kernel's Netfilter and changing iptables firewall rule-sets. <<
05:59.44siceloKotCzarny: they're one step ahead :-)
05:59.47DocScrutinizer05so they didn't grab netfilters/iptables/whatever the name completely yet since it's kernel land
06:00.16Maxdamantusnetfilter = kernel, iptables = userspace stuff that configures it
06:00.41KotCzarnyas i've said, they try to be both in kernel and userland, breaking separation and security of that model at the same time
06:01.32KotCzarnyso, did they implement remote management yet?
06:01.55KotCzarnyor just stick to exploiting own bugs for that? ;)
06:01.58DocScrutinizer05yep, of course. It pissed lennart to no end that linus doesn't eat lennart's BS without bitching about it and rejects it instead
06:02.57DocScrutinizer05remote management? only via HTML frontend ;-P
06:03.32KotCzarnywhich reminds me i should add html frontend to oscp-core
06:03.41KotCzarnyhar har
06:04.01DocScrutinizer05you're free to do that, OSCP is an app. ÜID1 shouldn't
06:04.04KotCzarnythat would make it accessible from any html capable device
06:04.05DocScrutinizer05PID*
06:04.18KotCzarnyyup
06:11.18Juestostill curious about mer and all that tbh
06:15.11sicelo-- sailfish
06:18.27Juestooh?
06:18.44Juestoso it's sailfish clone?
06:19.00Juestoshakes head
06:19.16KotCzarnyother way i think
06:19.22Juestohmm
06:19.29Juesto*perplexed*
06:19.49KotCzarnySailfish OS (also styled as SailfishOS[4] or abbreviated to SFOS) is a general purpose Linux distribution used commonly as a mobile operating system combining the Linux kernel for a particular hardware platform, the open-source Mer core stack of middleware, a proprietary UI contributed by Jolla or an open source UI, and other third-party components.[1][2]
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06:20.11KotCzarnyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS
06:20.25KotCzarnyjust read the first few paragraphs that explain what comes where
06:29.24sicelothanks KotCzarny
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07:11.21DocScrutinizer05or just look at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/talk.pdf#6
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07:40.33Juestomoblin is defunct or...? idk just remembered about that
07:42.00sicelotizen :)
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07:44.14JuestoSamsung smarttv....
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09:21.40KotCzarnyanyway, oscp-0.9.81 uploaded. special n8x0 release
09:22.17KotCzarnyisnt it nice to have app that can play current formats on a device 10+ years old?
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15:45.55drathirKotCzarny: bump of ssl/tls i guess probably woulld be nice too...
15:46.09KotCzarnyssl?
15:47.30drathiropenssl^
15:48.25KotCzarnythat topic was discussed on the channel few times, it's not trivial because higher openssl versions aren't compatible with old apps
15:49.45drathirKotCzarny: yea im aware of that he best choice probably two version provided old and new, and old app against old build and new against new one...
15:50.20drathirbut kinda lot of work/rebuild...
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15:55.12siceloanswer - maemo leste
15:55.13sicelohides
15:55.29KotCzarnyit's not showtime ready yet
15:55.45drathiror even not sure if still possible build new openssl with flags enabled for old functions but not sure how lon them will be still available, and still first idea better two  separate...
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16:05.09Juestodepends
16:09.03Juestossl 2.0 doesn't go well with tls 1.2 or sth
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17:11.52DocScrutinizer05sicelo: rather maemo leste? answer: what drathir suggested and leste doesn't really do: go ahead without dropping backward compatibility. AIUI in leste you would need to recompile *all* (SSL-depending?) apps, so leste isn't the answer but rather the duplication and potentiation of the situation on fremantle in that regard
17:15.00freemangordonI don;t see anything stopping us from providing openssl 0.9.8 in leste
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17:17.03DocScrutinizer05you should :-)
17:17.30DocScrutinizer05though with armhf you will need to recompile every app anyway
17:17.40DocScrutinizer05aiui
17:18.08freemangordonyes. and not only for armhf but also for x64 and arm64 ;)
17:18.22DocScrutinizer05then it doesn't matter when you provide/link against newest openssl
17:18.35freemangordonit does, as APIs are not compatible
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17:18.42freemangordonso it would mean less porting
17:20.35freemangordonwhich remands me we're near to the point we'll have to port certman :). That would be fun
17:20.41DocScrutinizer05I think an OS of this (sorry) limited scale regarding users and devs will fail like a 2 dozen others I've seen failing, when you don't have an existing convenient pool of readily usable apps
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17:21.40DocScrutinizer05it's the chicken/egg problem, always
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17:22.20freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: sure we may fail. Though, we HAVE those apps already in the repos
17:22.31freemangordonthey just need to be recompiled
17:23.30DocScrutinizer05yes, I hope all the best for leste that >90% will just build without any issues
17:23.41freemangordonsee, if "users" don;t want/need free mobile OS, so be it
17:23.46freemangordonexactly
17:24.05freemangordonalso, I expect similar percentage to be binary compatible on armel
17:24.29freemangordonbut we still don;t have enough of the "bas" to start such tests
17:24.30KotCzarnyhard part is getting image/installer generic enough for the majority
17:24.56KotCzarnymost users just ask 'where is the image for my XYZ device'
17:24.56DocScrutinizer05I admit I'm not really savvy to judge on the ABI-compatibility between armel and armhf
17:25.09freemangordonKotCzarny: which is a problem of HW/kernel
17:25.26freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: In short - there is no such compatibility :)
17:25.27KotCzarnysome of them posses ability to piece/compile os given the recipe
17:25.43KotCzarnybut most just want readily working thingy
17:26.28freemangordonKotCzarny: I think we'll just provide online installer for devuan, so, as long as your device can boot to devuan, you're fine
17:26.31KotCzarnyand it's especially sore in arm land
17:27.36DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: do you work on arm64 yet?
17:27.37freemangordonI know, but without us doing something in the userland it will never change. Not that we're guaranteed to have that change with leste, but still
17:28.06KotCzarnyi'm doing h3droid, which is targetting one specific soc, and there are people without the skill to just write the .img.xz to sdcard, boot it and select their board model
17:28.21freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: no, I don;t have HW, but I am pretty sure it will be fine as most of the develpmnet done by me was on x64
17:28.55KotCzarnyand it's sad, but there is a chance with few specific devices supported it will fly
17:29.27DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: what do you think about this (SoC)? https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A64/A64-OLinuXino/open-source-hardware
17:29.31freemangordonKotCzarny: I think we can provide image, given you can boot upstream kernel on the particular device
17:30.35freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: afaik Wizzup has one (or plans to get)
17:30.52freemangordonthat'd be one of the supported targets afaik
17:30.54freemangordonsee https://maemo-leste.github.io/pages/allwinner-a20-lime2-status.html
17:32.21DocScrutinizer05Allwinner A20[1](sun7i) 2 x Cortex-A7 CPU-cores ||  Allwinner A64[4](sun50i)  4 x Cortex-A53 CPU-core
17:32.45freemangordonMaili GPU, right?
17:33.06KotCzarnyA33 is also sweet target, plenty of sub 50usd ips display tablets
17:33.13freemangordonyes
17:33.40freemangordonbut, we still have problems with Mali there, I really hope this will be solved soon
17:33.50KotCzarnyand the nice thing is that support for mali and video accel engines are being done
17:33.58freemangordonwhere?
17:34.04freemangordonah
17:34.08freemangordon"being" done
17:34.19KotCzarnyyeah, did you see the VE kickstarter?
17:34.25freemangordonno
17:34.36KotCzarnyhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner-vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel
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17:35.26freemangordonah, VPU (DSP)
17:35.26KotCzarnyfirst stretch goal is also ticked off
17:35.32DocScrutinizer05>>GPU: Mali400, Mali400-MP2, SGX544 or PowerVR G6230 Graphics Procesor Unit, supporting OpenGL ES2.<<
17:35.52KotCzarnyso basically any Axx series will get hw video decoding open sourced and mainlined
17:35.54DocScrutinizer05friggin useful¡
17:36.15freemangordonKotCzarny: and what about GPU? any news there?
17:36.46DocScrutinizer05http://linux-sunxi.org/Allwinner_SoC_Family
17:36.49KotCzarnyapart from that mripard blog entry
17:37.13freemangordonmhm, anything else?
17:37.23DocScrutinizer05yep, Mali400: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali400
17:37.28freemangordonas drivers are broken ATM
17:37.38DocScrutinizer05Mali-400 MP2 1 2 256 KiBA20 (sun7i), A23 (sun8i), A33, H3 (sun8i), A64 A64
17:37.50KotCzarnythat amd guy is still the hope
17:38.12freemangordonwhich one, link?
17:38.25KotCzarnyhttps://github.com/yuq/linux-lima/tree/lima-4.13/drivers/gpu/drm/lima
17:38.30freemangordonah, lima
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17:38.37KotCzarnybut not the old lima
17:38.50KotCzarnyyuq took over
17:39.34freemangordondoes it work at all?
17:39.57KotCzarnyhaven't really checked, probably wizzup or folks on #linux-sunxi might say more
17:40.34freemangordonWizzup was too busy with leste stuff lately ;)
17:40.39freemangordonbut I'll ask him
17:40.52freemangordonas I have A33 in front of me
17:41.09freemangordongathering dust because of unusable GPU accell
17:41.43KotCzarnywell, you might get that tree and try out
17:41.53freemangordon4.13?
17:41.56KotCzarnyyup
17:42.28KotCzarnymaster seems to be unused
17:42.36freemangordonwhat about userspace? mesa?
17:43.02KotCzarnysince it's being done as generic drm driver, probably
17:43.16freemangordonand modesetting I gues
17:43.19freemangordon*guess
17:43.29KotCzarnythere is mesa-lima repo too
17:43.37KotCzarnyhttps://github.com/yuq/mesa-lima
17:43.49KotCzarnyso probably need both
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17:51.04WizzupI am not so sure that lima does anything useful in mesa yet
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17:51.37Wizzupfreemangordon: I also have Olimex OLinuXino A64
17:52.39Wizzupspecifically regarding providing old and unsupported openssl libs -- what could go wrong :)
17:53.19freemangordonactually they ARE supported by centos AFAIK ;)
17:53.23DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: so what's your personal "sweetspot" SoC?
17:53.43DocScrutinizer05max grunt and still open enough
17:53.51freemangordonomap3 :)
17:53.55DocScrutinizer05LOL
17:53.56KotCzarny:>
17:54.06DocScrutinizer05why not OMAP5?
17:54.09Wizzupqualcomm socks with adreno gpus are not that badf
17:54.13Wizzups/badf/bad/
17:54.17Wizzups/socks/socs/ wat
17:54.40KotCzarnyaren't qualcomm inception socs? computer in a computer?
17:55.12freemangordonhave to go afk
17:55.13freemangordonbbl
17:55.32DocScrutinizer05qualcomm sounds nasty. I seem to recall they got a record for not being open
17:55.46Wizzupifc6410 works quite nicely on mainline
17:55.52Wizzupincluding opengl and opengles by a free driver
17:55.53KotCzarnyi suspect their recent move to openness doesnt involve sharing all details
17:56.01Wizzuphttps://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/arm/boot/dts/qcom-apq8064-ifc6410.dts
17:56.08KotCzarnyie. they could just show you what they want you to
17:56.23KotCzarnyand keep real cpus hidden and working behind
17:56.34Wizzupright - there's many aspects to this of course
17:56.45Wizzupbut if you want a powerful yet mostly supported (with foss gpu driver) soc, that one works
17:57.22Wizzupfreemangordon: I will try mali again a bit later on a20, I got module and dts to work fine, just had trouble with userspace and debugging it wasn't obvious IIRC
18:01.13DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: who created that DT and based on what?
18:01.22Wizzuplinaro did a lot of work
18:01.35Wizzuphttps://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/arch/arm/boot/dts/qcom-apq8064-ifc6410.dts
18:02.43Wizzupmain issue I had with the board that is gets too hot and downclocks
18:02.56Wizzupbut the opengl driver is best on all of arm platforms :)
18:03.01Wizzupof all of*
18:03.06DocScrutinizer05I always got the same problem with that stuff - there's no reference to any datasheet or TRM
18:03.41Wizzupyes, that is a problem with I think all major SoC vendors now
18:04.35DocScrutinizer05basically somebody throws some code over the wall and you can check if it works or not, but not really fix or improve it, or understand what it really does
18:06.20DocScrutinizer05"the code is the documentation" comes to a dead end when looking at device drivers
18:08.32Wizzupit's impressive how well it works though
18:09.20KotCzarnyas long the code is correct
18:09.40KotCzarnyand matches the binaries
18:09.55KotCzarny'oh, hey, we forget to include few essential bugfixes'
18:10.24DocScrutinizer05from a security audit perspective as well as from a FOSS perspective it's a failed approach
18:11.48Wizzupyeah, so it depends on the definition of open -- open drivers or open specs
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18:11.53Wizzup(or both)
18:12.21KotCzarnyboth
18:12.31Wizzupwell, sure, but he asked about a sweetspot
18:12.39Wizzuphe didn't even ask me, but still, I like talking about arm socs
18:12.49DocScrutinizer05what REALLY pisses me off is FSF supporting that approach
18:13.03Wizzupyeah, fsf is not fhf :P
18:13.07Wizzupkinda sad
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18:24.22drathirremember was mentioned that openssl get build flag to enable old one but it need extra switch to enable and in future will be deleted from build flags too...
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