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| 01:24.15 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf (or ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher) sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 08:05.32 | KotCzarny | nice, oscp-0.9.80 working just fine on n800 |
| 08:05.51 | KotCzarny | eat this perishable software! |
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| 12:05.23 | Lantizia | Lo, looking at my n900 at the moment... wondering what to do with it... does anyone need one? because I'm a bit stumped what to do with it |
| 12:06.19 | Lantizia | lets face it maemo 5 isn't going to get any radical overhaul any time soon - no alt os's other than andriod (and then very out of date) - and I think nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers if I'm right? |
| 12:06.28 | Lantizia | so long term it's a lemon that'll stay in the past |
| 12:07.17 | Lantizia | few unique features I see it having (v.s. lots of other random arm/atom based embedded crap - that I'm also in the process of *judging*) is the keyboard, the built in wifi, the radio transmit/receive and the irDA |
| 12:07.37 | sy | Lantizia: try maemo leste or postmarketOS |
| 12:07.48 | sy | they're the current community projects |
| 12:07.54 | Lantizia | i threw my zaurus sl-5500 out the other month - similar reason |
| 12:08.05 | Lantizia | sy - ok i'll look |
| 12:08.30 | Lantizia | sy, maemo 7? there was never a 6! |
| 12:08.51 | sy | Windows 9 |
| 12:09.07 | Lantizia | true :D - tell me that leste is at least deb/apt based again though? |
| 12:09.20 | sicelo | some consider harmattan/MeeGo to have been 6 |
| 12:09.44 | sy | Lantizia: yep |
| 12:09.53 | sy | based on devuan |
| 12:09.55 | Lantizia | oh thank f for that |
| 12:10.08 | Lantizia | devuan!? oh - that crap |
| 12:10.14 | Lantizia | but better than nothing i guess |
| 12:12.12 | Lantizia | perhaps this little guy has a future after all |
| 12:18.42 | Vajb | what's wrong with devuan? Im using it on my server machine and i've been pleased so far. |
| 12:19.24 | Lantizia | i think its reason forking was tbh elitism |
| 12:20.26 | Vajb | i took it more of "not putting all the eggs in one basket" |
| 12:20.55 | Vajb | also "we did it because we could" |
| 12:21.37 | Lantizia | i see systemd as doing more to unite the linux distro's than lsb has ever achieved - and its long overdue |
| 12:22.05 | Hurrian | doesn't maemo 5 use upstart? |
| 12:22.19 | freemangordon | yes |
| 12:22.52 | Hurrian | switching to systemd and rewriting init scripts may be a pain point for updating packages for M7 |
| 12:23.35 | Hurrian | so yeah, totally understand if a move to systemd isn't in the cards for Leste yet |
| 12:24.02 | freemangordon | we have to rewrite init scripts anyways as upstart is no more |
| 12:24.05 | Vajb | but why would we need united distros? |
| 12:24.31 | Lantizia | "more to unite" - not "united" |
| 12:25.02 | freemangordon | comeon, lets not put everything and the kitchen sink in pid 0 of embedded device |
| 12:25.03 | Vajb | well semantics, but my question stands |
| 12:25.25 | Lantizia | except your question is based on the idea i'd want them "united" - didn't say that. |
| 12:26.12 | Vajb | more like "what if all the car manufacturers used same engine"? |
| 12:26.41 | Lantizia | all linux distro's do use the same car engine - linux |
| 12:27.35 | Vajb | oh i thought it more as all have four wheels and a box for passengers, but ok |
| 12:28.04 | Hurrian | freemangordon: ah, Leste switches to sysvinit? neat, anywhere I can read a design document on M7? |
| 12:28.12 | freemangordon | no, openrc |
| 12:28.16 | Hurrian | been out of the loop a while |
| 12:28.18 | Hurrian | ah |
| 12:28.50 | Lantizia | a "GNU/Linux" distro (as much as I hate the term, but I say this to exclude very custom things and things like Android) - should have more in common with each other than gnu tools and a linux kernel |
| 12:28.54 | Lantizia | IMO |
| 12:29.25 | freemangordon | Hurrian: design doc, no ATM, but you can get some idea from https://maemo-leste.github.io/ |
| 12:29.33 | freemangordon | check "news" section as well |
| 12:30.11 | Lantizia | systemd is a step in the right direction... as is wayland/flatpak |
| 12:30.28 | Hurrian | Calls on ofono, mainline kernel on RX51, and battery via UPower? :o |
| 12:30.48 | Hurrian | now I _really_ have to dig my N900 out |
| 12:30.48 | freemangordon | Lantizia: I guess you not that mantra - do one think, but do it well |
| 12:30.55 | freemangordon | *know |
| 12:31.04 | freemangordon | hmm, another typo day |
| 12:31.13 | Lantizia | *confused* |
| 12:31.23 | Lantizia | oh thing |
| 12:31.28 | sixwheeledbeast | freemangordon: +1 I was just typing that |
| 12:31.29 | freemangordon | Lantizia: I guess you know that mantra - do one thing, but do it well |
| 12:31.45 | freemangordon | systemd fails in both AFAIK |
| 12:31.53 | Lantizia | I do but the kernel hardly does 1 thing |
| 12:32.18 | freemangordon | oh, sure it does - provides interface to userspace to access hardware |
| 12:32.35 | freemangordon | this is the thing that kernel does |
| 12:32.44 | Lantizia | depends on how much you abstract that one thing in an english-spoken sentence :P |
| 12:33.32 | freemangordon | still, this is what kernel is supposed to do |
| 12:33.37 | Lantizia | I'm sure systemd guys would say (paraphrasing wikipedia) - provides the basic building blocks for a linux system. |
| 12:34.00 | Lantizia | just as there are many features to those "blocks"... there are many features of linux :D |
| 12:34.58 | freemangordon | but, it is not small building blocks, but a huge rock mountain, with lots of caves ;) |
| 12:35.22 | Lantizia | hardly |
| 12:35.24 | freemangordon | anyway, /me is back to REing stuff |
| 12:36.56 | freemangordon | as a side note - leste is not really bound to the init system, so if it turns out we made a mistake with devuan, we'll just have to tweak a couple of scripts here and there and it will still work |
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| 12:55.59 | KotCzarny | Lantizia: systemd is wrong on many levels, bad idea to 'do everything by itself', bad code quality, bad user interaction from devs |
| 12:56.45 | KotCzarny | linux (unix) mentality is doing small code blocks that do one thing, but do it perfect |
| 12:56.52 | KotCzarny | and building os from those blocks |
| 12:57.50 | KotCzarny | systemd is trying to be os in itself and failing hard to provide secure and flexible environment |
| 12:58.37 | Lantizia | the madness was already there, systemd is just organising the madness and giving it a name that people can point at |
| 12:58.48 | KotCzarny | why there are so many different distros? because you cant have one product that will please everyone |
| 12:59.28 | KotCzarny | unifying them isnt going to win over users, more in reverse |
| 12:59.29 | Lantizia | anyone who judges systemd entirely on its technical merit or past ethos of unix/linux is incapable of seeing the bigger problem or vision |
| 12:59.50 | Lantizia | it's like pepsi vs coke :D |
| 12:59.56 | KotCzarny | yes, vision, there were posts from systemd devs and their vision |
| 13:00.21 | KotCzarny | no, it's like fastfood vs availability of versatile gourmets |
| 13:01.45 | Lantizia | systemd isn't your fear (as anyone is allowed to write anything right? no matter how they think it should work), it's the possibility that people will get too reliant on systemd and assume it's always there - that it'll be a big dependancy |
| 13:02.11 | KotCzarny | sure, then please use it |
| 13:02.18 | KotCzarny | but dont force feed the others |
| 13:02.24 | Lantizia | well i'd argue that gcc (and a whole whack of other utilities) has been in that position for years - and no one complains bitterly (ok some do) when they hear it being called GNU/Linux |
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| 13:03.59 | Lantizia | "a linux distro" in my head is too broad... but a "a debian-based distro" is too specific (and just gets itself into a rhel.vs.debian.vs.other-more-minor-players type situation)... there should be something inbetween that makes it a common base |
| 13:04.21 | KotCzarny | yes, it's called linux kernel |
| 13:04.51 | KotCzarny | luckily they won't allow braindead code from systemd devs into there |
| 13:04.51 | Lantizia | and whilst we've enjoyed *assuming* everyone is likely running X.org for a desktop app (not by force, just because that how it fell)... it'd be nice for authors of system daemons to know what to expect for working with the system too (e.g. init) |
| 13:05.13 | Lantizia | some stuff should just be staples of a "linux distro" |
| 13:05.38 | sicelo | your "should" should actually be "could" :-/ |
| 13:05.40 | Lantizia | but probably should have another name (as long as its not GNU/Linux - yuck) |
| 13:05.43 | KotCzarny | thing is, trying unification is wrong in itself |
| 13:06.00 | Lantizia | how? you can always go it alone anyway? Android did |
| 13:06.01 | KotCzarny | because what works for you, wont work for others |
| 13:06.14 | KotCzarny | android goes commercial way |
| 13:06.23 | KotCzarny | they dont want you to mess with them |
| 13:06.25 | Lantizia | "some android" |
| 13:06.43 | KotCzarny | they want to sell you the product |
| 13:06.53 | KotCzarny | if you think about the same reasons, go away |
| 13:07.04 | Lantizia | i'm not suggesting that there be some odd merging (in an inseparable sense) of linux and systemd - they'd always continue to be seperate |
| 13:07.05 | KotCzarny | linux is about freedom of code, choice etc |
| 13:07.29 | KotCzarny | and no, systemd wont happen in maemo |
| 13:07.32 | sixwheeledbeast | Take Maemo for instance. One reason for the future of Maemo being based on Devuan going forward is the lack of systemd. systemd and Maemo would conflict with cgroups, there are legacy systems that systemd will not work with due to it's design. |
| 13:07.40 | Lantizia | i'm not (and systemd isn't) trying to take away that choice |
| 13:07.55 | Lantizia | if you're upset at anyone - be upset at the distro's that chose to use it |
| 13:08.04 | KotCzarny | of course you can start your own distro that would work in that way |
| 13:08.35 | KotCzarny | Lantizia: and yes, systemd is taking away the freedom of choice |
| 13:08.49 | Lantizia | no it isn't - you don't have to use it |
| 13:09.07 | KotCzarny | sure? then show me how you will do it on current debian |
| 13:09.09 | KotCzarny | try it |
| 13:09.11 | KotCzarny | ;) |
| 13:09.14 | sicelo | so what's your point? :-/ |
| 13:09.18 | Lantizia | it's debian that took your choice away |
| 13:09.24 | KotCzarny | rrrright |
| 13:09.33 | KotCzarny | that's something new |
| 13:09.46 | KotCzarny | now systemd advocated will blame distros for choosing it :> |
| 13:10.01 | KotCzarny | there is a way for such attitude, toxic |
| 13:10.29 | Lantizia | you seem to be suggesting that certain software has no right to exist or exist in certain forms - thats just crazy |
| 13:11.09 | sicelo | looks like it's the other way round Lantizia |
| 13:11.13 | sixwheeledbeast | Eh? I dont get it. "debian took your choice away" yet you say "devuan!? oh - that crap" |
| 13:11.24 | sicelo | 14:10 < Lantizia> devuan!? oh - that crap |
| 13:11.24 | Lantizia | it is what it is - you don't like how some (e.g. debian) have chosen the ones they'll put together in a suite |
| 13:11.48 | Lantizia | sicelo, yeah - i'm not a fan, so? |
| 13:11.58 | Lantizia | still beats the heck out of something rhel based |
| 13:11.59 | KotCzarny | so you are contradicting yourself |
| 13:12.06 | sixwheeledbeast | :nod: |
| 13:12.14 | KotCzarny | and that puts your other sentences in bad light |
| 13:12.37 | Lantizia | it does? |
| 13:12.41 | KotCzarny | yup |
| 13:12.44 | sixwheeledbeast | :nod: |
| 13:12.45 | KotCzarny | it's called logic |
| 13:12.46 | Lantizia | don't see it |
| 13:12.55 | KotCzarny | humans use that for thinking |
| 13:13.06 | KotCzarny | and to extrapolate facts into opinions |
| 13:13.10 | KotCzarny | and theories |
| 13:13.19 | Lantizia | just because i think its a crap reason for a fork - doesn't mean i want it to not exist |
| 13:13.34 | KotCzarny | yes, it was the reason |
| 13:13.35 | Lantizia | you've combined two things there |
| 13:13.46 | KotCzarny | because taking out systemd required adding few other packages |
| 13:13.51 | KotCzarny | that were TIED to systemd |
| 13:13.59 | KotCzarny | which debian refused to have |
| 13:14.08 | Lantizia | so? how does this relate to what you were personally attacking me for? |
| 13:14.22 | KotCzarny | i'm not attacking you, that's another thing |
| 13:14.29 | sixwheeledbeast | I don't think anyone is attacking anyone, BTW |
| 13:14.34 | sicelo | no one attacked you at anytime |
| 13:14.54 | Lantizia | it's like if I said windows was crap - it's just an opinion... but i've no right/means to make it no exist or exist in another way |
| 13:15.12 | Lantizia | well your quoting me as though it's proof of me being illogical |
| 13:15.20 | Lantizia | i don't see it - it's coming off personal |
| 13:16.00 | sicelo | uses systemd on both laptop and desktop btw - debian :) |
| 13:19.06 | KotCzarny | 'you're' |
| 13:19.29 | Lantizia | well thanks KotCzarny - caught be red handed |
| 13:19.41 | Lantizia | oops! another typo... will you spot it? |
| 13:20.30 | KotCzarny | typo would be youre |
| 13:20.33 | sixwheeledbeast | No-one working Devuan wanted a fork in the first place it was a necessary evil. I fail to see how thats a crap reason to go to that effort. |
| 13:21.33 | KotCzarny | btw. real unifying would be creating flexible distro that anyone could EASILY customize |
| 13:21.40 | Lantizia | sixwheeledbeast, I think if it was a gentoo/slackware fork or something like that (and lets say I was a big user of one of them) - i'd have not called it 'crap' |
| 13:22.05 | Lantizia | but I think it shows a failure to really get what debian is trying to achieve (or at least has been achieving) |
| 13:22.14 | KotCzarny | distros exist because people had specific needs unfullfilled by existing solutions |
| 13:24.15 | KotCzarny | one could argue that any debian-like/rh-like distro shouldnt exist because there was no enough reason to split |
| 13:24.22 | Lantizia | i mean if devuan had started something fresh (not a fork) and just used the deb packaging format - i'd also not likely call it 'crap' |
| 13:24.30 | KotCzarny | yet, they do, and they work out for people |
| 13:24.34 | Lantizia | but it just defeats the point of debian in my mind |
| 13:24.52 | Lantizia | which is that of a common, easy to install, secure, minimal base |
| 13:25.28 | Lantizia | KotCzarny, most don't fiddle with the base though - e.g. mint |
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| 13:39.51 | Vajb | i think that in ideal world, there would be a "webpage" in where you build your own distro just by choosing what you want in it. |
| 13:40.18 | KotCzarny | well, there is lfs |
| 13:40.20 | KotCzarny | :) |
| 13:40.27 | KotCzarny | but 'some assembly required' ;) |
| 13:41.19 | Vajb | oh, guess i'll have to read up about it |
| 13:42.04 | KotCzarny | http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ |
| 13:42.51 | Vajb | oo, by description it sounds exactly what i was picturing in my thoughts |
| 13:42.55 | KotCzarny | :) |
| 13:43.13 | Vajb | i've been hacked! |
| 13:43.34 | KotCzarny | nope, you were just reading wrong parts of the internet |
| 13:44.56 | Vajb | maybe even alfs |
| 13:45.33 | Vajb | no. I meant that i had an original idea and it was already there |
| 13:45.44 | Vajb | btw jk oc |
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| 21:50.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy, why doesn't any knowledgeable user kick in when >>nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers<< and >>maemo 7? there was never a 6!<< ? |
| 21:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukes a bit at systemd |
| 21:56.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | there was a time when all UNIX was more or less compatible, particularly regarding no dependencies on a "init system" |
| 21:57.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | then came systemd because "new lette stuff is better" and made a linux flavor that's not compatible to other unices any more, and now that crap is "the great unifier"? ROTFL |
| 21:57.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | leete, even |
| 21:59.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | even when it were true that before systemd there would have been a mess of incompatible init systems (which is a lie), then https://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 22:00.54 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: on the bright side - https://imgur.com/a/XxTTX |
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| 22:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't get me started about the mindset of those applauding to a project forcefeeding its crap down everybody's throat and calling that "welcome unification" |
| 22:03.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like an approach right back from 1933 |
| 22:08.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | will deploy face recognition for subway, ATMs, acess control of all kinds, and build that face recog in a way that makes it mandatory to shave your hair off for it to work. Welcome unification of people's look and style on the streets |
| 22:10.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't like being bald? but why? it's the future and makes so many things so much easier/better |
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| 22:16.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the last clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shellscript, then sure you will happily eat the BS about "systemd unit files simpler than init scripts" |
| 22:17.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/ last / least / |
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| 22:24.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we've been there before and seen EXACTLY SAME SHIT happen, based on same type of false assumptions, broken promises and incompetence, with PolypAudio replacing ALSA. Just PA is no hard dependency of everything and their installer program, like systemd now - you *can* kick it out and get working audio again thanks ALSA which for sure is not optimal either but still better than PA after all those years of PA fixing alleged issues in ALSA |
| 22:24.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | that never really existed. Thanks to exactly same guy who brings us system D now |
| 22:41.32 | *** join/#maemo auenf (~David@121.212.143.198) |
| 22:42.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: sorry for delay, had to vent a little. Great! |
| 22:57.11 | *** join/#maemo auenfx8 (~David@121.212.143.198) |
| 23:22.57 | Oksanaa | pkill9 : I am using Nokia N900 as daily phone, and when MicroB doesn't work, I use Fennec 17. If it doesn't work either, I use laptop because I am too lazy to test other N900's browsers (chromium and such). ssh -X into a desktop machine could also work. Internet Banking works fine in MicroB, and I |
| 23:25.29 | Oksanaa | don't use WhatsApp (telepathy is fine for IRC and SIP) |
| 23:25.38 | *** join/#maemo wicket64 (~wicket@dynamic-190-24-97-24.dynamic.etb.net.co) |
| 23:28.47 | Oksanaa | Lantizia : I apologise for my personal almost-religious anti-systemd-ish-ness [I am similarly stubborn about many topics], but if big Linux kernel becomes a problem, I will find a micro-kernel (like Minix) to swtich to, instead of saying "oh, kernel is huge and bloated, let's have init-systemd which |
| 23:31.09 | Oksanaa | is huge and bloated, too". I don't drink pepsi/coke/soda, and I don't subscribe to sameness/monopolism. |
| 23:33.19 | Oksanaa | Either way, I am quite sure that it's not that difficult to take "maemo 7" and install systemd on it (if you wish to). After all, systemd knows how to handle all different types of init scripts, doesn't it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers |
| 23:43.03 | sixwheeledbeast | Fennec? I assume thumb? |
| 23:43.13 | Oksanaa | sixwheeledbeast : I guess so. |
| 23:43.55 | Oksanaa | It is slow, but the websites are more likely to work in it than in MicroB. Still, it is slow. |
| 23:46.47 | Oksanaa | As for tab interface of MicroB... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=67622 |
| 23:53.36 | sixwheeledbeast | Issue with systemd and maemo is cgroups. The whole systemd decision started by bashing Devuan doubt it would be used for Maemo. I don't believe systemd is compatible with old scripts whereas upstart is. Fennec is pretty unusable if your not on thumb. |