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| 01:19.29 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf (or ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher) sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 05:39.38 | sicelo | Wizzup: yay! |
| 05:48.14 | Juest0 | nice, so it is completed yet? |
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| 07:53.59 | Wizzup | Juest0: no, but when we have a ddable developer image in a week or two, we can try to get more people involved |
| 07:54.08 | Wizzup | once there is a stable base, adding other things might be easier |
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| 08:17.31 | Juest0 | no other platforms than arm and n900 yet? |
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| 08:17.38 | Juest0 | alright thanks Wizzup |
| 08:17.47 | Wizzup | Juest0: freemangordon has been testing on amd64 |
| 08:17.54 | Juest0 | how that went |
| 08:17.58 | Wizzup | well, it runs? |
| 08:18.03 | Juest0 | all of it? |
| 08:18.09 | Wizzup | no, what I showed you |
| 08:18.15 | Juest0 | oh right |
| 08:18.17 | Wizzup | there's a lot of things that are not ported, this is just the base |
| 08:18.24 | Wizzup | hopefully more people can then show up and help porting more :) |
| 08:18.30 | Juest0 | well, the base runs? :p |
| 08:18.41 | Wizzup | hildon-desktop and such, yes |
| 08:19.43 | Juest0 | im yet to upgrade my devuan vm and i am running low on disk space plus an infected installation i am yet to resolve :( |
| 08:21.05 | Wizzup | wait a week or two :) |
| 08:26.29 | Juest0 | heh |
| 08:26.30 | Juest0 | alright |
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| 13:25.06 | enyc | Wizzup: hrrm... to what extent can new kerenl be used with original maemo system, too ... ? |
| 13:26.05 | Wizzup | idk, some parts might work, others not, it's been done before with pali's kernel, but requires some changes to rootfs as well |
| 13:26.13 | Wizzup | not interested in looking backwards though :) |
| 13:27.59 | enyc | kk |
| 13:28.16 | enyc | Wizzup: intention is to have a working system that integrates with existing open parts of maemo/hildon or so ??? |
| 13:32.24 | Wizzup | intention is to have a modern base (devuan/debian) with maemo/hildon components so that it can be used as a phone/internet-tablet just like n900, on the n900 and other phones |
| 13:32.37 | Wizzup | will write more about it soon |
| 13:35.47 | enyc | Wizzup: goodgood! |
| 13:37.39 | pkill9 | Wizzup: how close are you to releasing it? |
| 13:38.35 | enyc | Wizzup: My input towards testers -- you mention SD cards... It would be really good if you could make decent howto for SD-card-only based install, with howot make existing common maemo "bootmenu" able to provide this as a boot-option. Preferably, workable as "extra" partition on larger sd-card, allowing existing maemo with /media/mmc1 to co-exist with 'experimental devuan on /media/mmc1p3 sort of |
| 13:38.41 | enyc | thing.... Not everybody will have/want separate-n900 or so to 'test' with. Not everybody will be u-boot/etc expert. |
| 13:42.13 | Wizzup | enyc: this is how IU use it |
| 13:42.18 | Wizzup | how I use it |
| 13:42.36 | Wizzup | sd card only |
| 13:42.54 | Wizzup | if you have u-boot installed via ham you only need to select 'boot from sd card' or type 'run sdboot' |
| 13:42.57 | Wizzup | it's not rocket science |
| 13:42.59 | Wizzup | :) |
| 13:43.10 | Wizzup | but yes, we'll do some writeup |
| 13:43.11 | enyc | Wizzup: ok, what about those using "bootmenu" rather than "u-boot" ? |
| 13:43.16 | Wizzup | enyc: bootmenu is u-boot |
| 13:43.22 | Wizzup | afaik |
| 13:43.32 | enyc | Wizzup: check, don't assume, it may be awrapper around it or so |
| 13:43.52 | Wizzup | doubti t |
| 13:43.55 | Wizzup | it's just u-boot with some scripts |
| 13:44.08 | enyc | Wizzup: yes, check the wrapper-scripts etc WORK with your arrangement |
| 13:44.21 | Wizzup | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613 |
| 13:44.31 | Wizzup | enyc: I don't understand why you act like that, I know it's u-boot |
| 13:44.54 | enyc | Wizzup: because i don't have a definite confirmation/explanation what the "bootmenu" wrapper-scripts/tools are |
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| 13:45.55 | enyc | Wizzup: also, the other thing that would be worth checking, is "co-existance" with sd-card maemo data parttiton and maemo Swap-on-SD-card (flopswap). Is it possible to have those working with maemo "as usual" and have a e.g. 4th partition on the SD-card, to "boot devuan from" ? |
| 13:45.57 | Wizzup | bootmenu is u-boot with some scripts that generate u-boot config file/menu |
| 13:46.05 | Wizzup | enyc: yes |
| 13:46.16 | enyc | Wizzup: excellent =) |
| 13:46.42 | enyc | ok, good =) write those all up, collect seggusionts etc etc, highly agree! |
| 13:46.50 | enyc | do you have maemo-camera working in devuan ? |
| 13:47.30 | enyc | err n900 camera i mean |
| 13:47.57 | Wizzup | I don't know, didn't check yet, other stuff to sort first. What we want it something that boots and is usable for development, and then developers can pick this up |
| 13:48.13 | enyc | nods! |
| 13:48.31 | enyc | dev environment includes qemu-system-arm chroot ?? |
| 13:48.38 | enyc | err qemu-user-arm i mean |
| 13:48.46 | bencoh | enyc: for n900 mainline support: https://elinux.org/N900 |
| 13:48.55 | bencoh | it's relatively up-to-date |
| 13:49.05 | Wizzup | enyc: no, not at this point |
| 13:49.46 | enyc | bencoh: ooooooooooooooooooh recent kernels ... |
| 13:50.14 | bencoh | Wizzup: btw, building arm packages on devuan/ascii (or debian/stretch) is as simple as runing dpkg-buildpackages, except for packages where multilib/paths support is broken |
| 13:50.35 | bencoh | -s |
| 13:50.46 | Wizzup | bencoh: do you mean dpkg-buildpackage sorts out the cross compiler or qemu stuff |
| 13:50.57 | bencoh | cross-compiler stuff (no qemu as far as I can tell), yes |
| 13:51.05 | Wizzup | ok |
| 13:51.11 | Wizzup | well, we also have autobuild env, but yeah |
| 13:51.13 | bencoh | all you have to do is install the deps for the target arch |
| 13:51.18 | Wizzup | I've done most of the powervr testing on the deviec itself via ssh |
| 13:51.32 | Wizzup | bencoh: neat |
| 13:52.01 | bencoh | xorg-server is broken for instance, and you need to relocate its .pc file to build packages depending on it |
| 13:52.07 | bencoh | nothing too difficult though :) |
| 13:54.50 | Wizzup | bencoh: in the end we'd want everything in jenkins/ci |
| 13:55.16 | bencoh | Wizzup: native build, or cross? |
| 13:55.21 | Wizzup | native |
| 13:55.25 | bencoh | ah |
| 13:55.37 | Wizzup | bencoh: everything at http://maedevu.maemo.org/ is already native ly built |
| 13:55.40 | bencoh | yeah |
| 13:55.45 | bencoh | I know |
| 13:55.47 | Wizzup | ack |
| 13:56.09 | enyc | hrrm nokia-n900's expensive to find now ?? |
| 13:56.34 | bencoh | unfortunately there is no real (working) cross build environment for debian (apart from the one I mentioned, but it's still not completely supported) |
| 13:56.51 | bencoh | enyc: depends on where you live and what you're looking for |
| 13:58.37 | Wizzup | enyc: bout 25 euro |
| 13:58.49 | bencoh | Wizzup: seriously? where from? |
| 13:58.52 | Wizzup | .nl |
| 13:58.58 | Wizzup | I bought about 5 for that price |
| 13:59.06 | bencoh | hmm ... okay, I really need to get one |
| 13:59.10 | bencoh | any link? :) |
| 13:59.28 | Wizzup | they only ship to nl, it's refurbished, but I can get one and send it your way |
| 13:59.35 | Wizzup | it's like a dutch ebay |
| 13:59.38 | bencoh | that'd be awesome :) |
| 14:00.04 | Wizzup | ok, poke me about it a bit later :) |
| 14:00.11 | bencoh | sure ... thanks! :) |
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| 14:27.21 | enyc | bencoh: I (thought) the core of debian (compliers etc) is all that really 'needs' to cross-build, then qemu-user chroots (or real hardare) can do rest of the work ? |
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| 21:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | bootmenu is *inside* linux, called from preinit. uBoot is *before* linux |
| 21:27.34 | freemangordon | right |
| 21:28.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just Pali decided to bastardize the bootmenu file hierarchy and syntax to configure uBoot by running a wizard that "compiles" the uBoot config file from bootmenu special entries |
| 21:28.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | but technically bootmenu and uBoot are totally orhogonal |
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| 21:31.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi freemangordon :-) |
| 21:33.34 | freemangordon | hi! |
| 21:34.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then there once been (*DEPRECATED*) multiboot that flashed a new kernel from within the system and then rebooted the system into another system. Obviously something every normal MoBo manual warns you NOT to do regularly and only with very stable and secure power supply |
| 21:35.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~maemo-multiboot |
| 21:35.22 | infobot | maemo-multiboot is, like, deprecated, and a horrible hack. PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED |
| 21:44.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | to put it even more concise and to the point: multiboot is a shellscript run by busybox, uBoot is a bootloader to load kernels and hand them rootfs pointers |
| 21:44.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops |
| 21:44.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | to put it even more concise and to the point: bootmenu is a shellscript run by busybox, uBoot is a bootloader to load kernels and hand them rootfs pointers |
| 21:45.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | backupmenu is a "plugin" for bootmenu |
| 21:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you can think of bootmenu as maemo's "init s" |
| 21:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is another occasion that shows clearly why we don't want systemd in maemo |
| 21:48.12 | Juesto | hey freemangordon how is the amd64 experience of hildon coming? |
| 21:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | not like systemd could even run maemo since both want exclusive control over cgroups |
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| 21:54.11 | Maxdamantus | To be fair, systemd doesn't have to be the first process that is ever run, like with practically any sane init system. |
| 21:54.36 | Maxdamantus | as long as the "bootmenu" execs it as pid 1, it shouldn't conflict with bootmenu itself. |
| 21:56.31 | Maxdamantus | on my (Debian) system at work, my initramfs mounts the root filesystem, pivot_roots into it and execs systemd. |
| 22:06.30 | freemangordon | Juesto: like... hildon experience :) |
| 22:06.43 | Juesto | yeah, hildon-desktop |
| 22:07.02 | Juesto | looking forward to try it ;p |
| 22:31.23 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05 thankyou for the bootmenu explanation =) |
| 22:31.44 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: how does bootmenu 'detect' extra bootable options on sd-card partitions etc.? |
| 22:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | you place file snippeds into /etc/bootmeny or somesuch |
| 22:34.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you install e.g. the powerkernel uBoot image, it installs the needed file into that bootmenu dir, then runs this wizard taht scans all files in the dir, collects the uBoot-related ones and assembles a uBoot.xfg or whatever the name |
| 22:35.25 | Maxdamantus | .scr probably |
| 22:35.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | the wizard itself prolly supposed to come with uBoot |
| 22:36.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | check the dependencies, it will show up in there I guess |
| 22:36.19 | Maxdamantus | Probably not. The menu in u-boot was written by Pali. |
| 22:36.32 | Maxdamantus | Not sure if people use it on other devices. |
| 22:38.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | or check the postinstall script of powerkernel image, it calls the wizard, while the file list of that same pkg should list the file snippet |
| 22:39.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | makes sense? |
| 22:54.05 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: the expectancy of extra entries in /etc/bootmenu and so on, compliced to uboot all completely makes sense, no surpises |
| 22:54.27 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: i was wondering if there might be some sort of "magic filename on any partition" sort of approch, apparently not ... |
| 22:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik not |
| 22:55.24 | Juesto | if i was to get a n900, what i should do first? |
| 22:55.33 | Juesto | is it worth to have a n900 nowadays? |
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| 23:07.08 | pkill9 | what do you want out of it Juesto? |
| 23:07.20 | Juesto | I am not sure |
| 23:07.26 | Juesto | experiment with it |
| 23:08.21 | pkill9 | not sure, the stock kernel has required closed source blobs and is really outdated :/ |
| 23:08.56 | Juesto | i think it would be a great experience |
| 23:09.01 | Juesto | to use such phone |
| 23:09.04 | Juesto | might be wrong |
| 23:10.53 | Maxdamantus | If you want a phone that's relatively similar to a typical desktop Linux system, maybe. |
| 23:11.09 | Juesto | yeah could be |
| 23:11.15 | Juesto | would you compare maemo to mac? |
| 23:12.32 | pkill9 | i hope Wizzup's project with Devuan will be viable |
| 23:12.54 | Juesto | yes it will |
| 23:12.58 | Juesto | a few more weeks he said |
| 23:13.03 | pkill9 | apparently they got Hildon + powervr (the GPU) working on Devuan |
| 23:13.07 | Juesto | i kind of wish to try the original first |
| 23:13.16 | Juesto | i mean |
| 23:13.18 | Juesto | it is still usable |
| 23:13.23 | pkill9 | yeah it is |
| 23:13.28 | Juesto | i do not mind non-foss |
| 23:13.48 | Maxdamantus | Depends how you use the Mac. |
| 23:14.19 | Juesto | mac suits my power user style because its mostly gui, easy to use |
| 23:14.25 | Juesto | not as problematic as linux |
| 23:14.34 | Juesto | and it still unix |
| 23:14.42 | Maxdamantus | If you use macOS or a Linux-based system in such a way that the fact that there's a unix-like system underneath matters, they could be comparable. |
| 23:17.40 | Juesto | yes, the proprietary and foss mix |
| 23:23.17 | Wizzup | hildon-desktop works with powervr now |
| 23:23.25 | Wizzup | (since 30 minutes) |
| 23:23.36 | Wizzup | pkill9: p.s. it's not just my project |
| 23:23.44 | Wizzup | freemangordon and parazyd are doing a lot of the heavy liften |
| 23:23.46 | Wizzup | lifting |
| 23:23.49 | Wizzup | hopefully soon more people :) |
| 23:23.56 | pkill9 | ah ok, and great news :) |
| 23:24.16 | Wizzup | it's a bit jerky, but quite good |
| 23:24.18 | parazyd | \o/ |
| 23:24.19 | pkill9 | do you have a project page? |
| 23:24.25 | Wizzup | yes, but it's not ready yet :P |
| 23:24.30 | pkill9 | ok |
| 23:24.32 | Wizzup | https://maemo-leste.github.io/ |
| 23:24.37 | Wizzup | in a day or two there will be more text |
| 23:25.12 | pkill9 | i'd like to help, though I'm not sure what needs doing and I doubt I could help much with the heavy lifting |
| 23:25.15 | Juesto | Wizzup: what is parazyd doing? |
| 23:25.47 | parazyd | https://pub.parazyd.cf/dev/random/magic.gif |
| 23:26.01 | Juesto | seriously asking |
| 23:26.25 | Wizzup | we'll blog about it |
| 23:26.32 | Juesto | where |
| 23:26.35 | Wizzup | he's doing devuan stuff, ci, autobuilds and more |
| 23:26.40 | Juesto | ah i see |
| 23:26.48 | Juesto | automation |
| 23:27.12 | Juesto | devuan ascii is the next version name? |
| 23:27.13 | *** join/#maemo sunshavi (~user@181.64.192.12) |
| 23:27.16 | Juesto | or testing |
| 23:27.18 | Juesto | ? |
| 23:27.26 | *** join/#maemo zgrepc (sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep) |
| 23:28.08 | parazyd | Juesto: devuan ascii is the next stable. coming soon |
| 23:28.23 | Juesto | alright |
| 23:28.24 | *** join/#maemo merlin1991 (~merlin@Maemo/community/cssu/merlin1991) |
| 23:28.29 | parazyd | we're finalizing the installer now and that should make it ready |
| 23:28.35 | Wizzup | Juesto: it's basically debian stretch |
| 23:28.45 | Juesto | alright |
| 23:28.53 | *** join/#maemo janus (Janus@bnc.animux.de) |
| 23:28.57 | *** join/#maemo atk (Arch-TK@ircpuzzles/staff/Arch-TK) |
| 23:29.20 | *** join/#maemo ginggs (~quassel@2a05:d018:c1e:8d00:c473:4128:ae2d:2c36) |
| 23:29.29 | Wizzup | I mean |
| 23:29.31 | Wizzup | it's more |
| 23:29.40 | Juesto | does this project guarantee and ensure the original experience/spirit of maemo? |
| 23:29.42 | Wizzup | but the packages are mostly stretch |
| 23:29.54 | Wizzup | Juesto: that's a vague question :) |
| 23:30.07 | Juesto | intended |
| 23:30.12 | Juesto | i am asking broadly |
| 23:30.19 | Wizzup | then "maybe" |
| 23:30.20 | Wizzup | :P |
| 23:31.21 | Juesto | should a user who installs leste on his n900 expect bugs fixed while requiring no learning curve? |
| 23:31.40 | Wizzup | right now? definitely |
| 23:31.45 | Wizzup | in the future? hopefully not |
| 23:31.48 | Juesto | aka, experience the system how they always did |
| 23:31.50 | Juesto | Oh... |
| 23:31.59 | Juesto | why |
| 23:32.07 | Wizzup | because bugs always exist :) |
| 23:32.19 | Wizzup | btw, don't count on being able to use it as a daily driver in a few weeks |
| 23:32.27 | Wizzup | I said, in a week or two we'll have an sd card image that people can try |
| 23:32.35 | Wizzup | and hopefully attract developers to help out more |
| 23:33.02 | Juesto | of course, i just asked with the supposition of a existing release |
| 23:33.22 | Wizzup | right now a lot is missing. |
| 23:33.29 | Wizzup | you can't even connect to wifi without using the terminal |
| 23:33.34 | Wizzup | that will change |
| 23:33.51 | Juesto | not at this state |
| 23:33.57 | Juesto | oh well |
| 23:33.58 | Juesto | nvm |
| 23:34.01 | Juesto | good luck |
| 23:34.06 | Wizzup | :) |
| 23:34.08 | Wizzup | it's late here |
| 23:34.11 | Wizzup | gn |
| 23:34.15 | Juesto | enjoy your night buddy |
| 23:34.21 | Wizzup | short one, but worth it :P |
