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| 01:11.58 | CatButts | >Thus the binaries from CSSU-Thumb will not work in a "normal system", and several things like uBoot or flashing --flash-only=kernel stop working the way they used to |
| 01:12.30 | CatButts | in what way uBoot will not work the same way? |
| 01:47.15 | Maxdamantus | I think it means if you compile uBoot with Thumb. |
| 01:49.41 | Maxdamantus | https://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Thumb#The_Countermeasures |
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| 08:21.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | it will make your system segfault |
| 08:22.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is about system segfaulting with stock kernel and thumb binaries |
| 08:23.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | uBoot or flashing --flash-only=kernel both install stock jernel |
| 08:24.02 | Maxdamantus | Well, u-boot probably won't make your system segfault, because u-boot probably doesn't use virtual memory and "segmentation fault" is a term for when a higher-level OS decides that a page access is invalid. |
| 08:24.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | the benefit from a thumb system is arguable, I think for a lot of users the complications weigh more than the increased free RAM |
| 08:26.56 | Maxdamantus | ultimately wants to use a normal Linux distribution, which probably means using something like Debian's "armel" port. |
| 08:27.24 | Maxdamantus | Since armhf relies on a non-bugged implementation of Thumb-2. |
| 08:29.36 | CatButts | so it's gonna be a pain in the butt if I get power kernel, uboot and thumb cssu? |
| 08:29.54 | Maxdamantus | I think u-boot should be pretty much irrelevant. |
| 08:30.22 | Maxdamantus | aiui, the only time you'd think about Thumb issues with u-boot is when actually compiling u-boot. |
| 08:30.54 | Maxdamantus | Since if you decide to tell your compiler to use thumb instructions when building u-boot, it won't run correctly on the N900. |
| 08:31.22 | CatButts | I decide not to compile and use precompiled binaries :P |
| 08:31.47 | Maxdamantus | If you have a correctly running u-boot (which is what you'd get if you acquire it from the maemo repository or compile it yourself using the default configuration for rx-51, it shouldn't affect the stability of the kernel you boot from it) |
| 08:32.09 | Maxdamantus | misplaced closing bracket there, but meh. |
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| 08:32.31 | CatButts | missplaced null terminator :P |
| 08:36.05 | sixwheeledbeast | power kernel has the workaround just like cssu-kernel (thumb) |
| 08:40.22 | CatButts | yes |
| 08:41.28 | CatButts | so, what complications can I expect, besides that of running thumb code with non-thumb kernel? |
| 08:44.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | none |
| 08:45.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | just booting into uBoot default jernel or reflashing kernel will make your system segafault and prolly you will have to do a full rootfs aka COMBINED reflash to recover |
| 08:46.52 | Maxdamantus | Why not just do a reflash of the kernel to be one supporting the thumb workaround? |
| 08:47.03 | Maxdamantus | (or a u-boot image with such a kernel appended) |
| 08:47.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | most likely you also can't run binaries from your system when you booted up to rescueOS - again stock kernel with thumb binaries |
| 08:49.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | restoring a BM backup after a reflassh will reder your system bootlooping, you need to install either powerkernal or uBoot manually before you restore |
| 08:50.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if somebody (robbiethe1st?) could pimp BM to backup and restore kernels too |
| 08:51.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, that would be a nice workpackage for bored developers lacking ideas what to do |
| 08:53.20 | Maxdamantus | has always disliked the idea of software responsible for maintaining the main OS filesystem messing around with kernels and partition layout. |
| 08:54.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: |
| 08:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~uboot |
| 08:54.27 | infobot | N900 uBoot is a siamese twin binary [uBoot+stockMaemoKernel] that resides in kernel NAND partition /dev/mtd3 aka "kernel". You can't uninstall it, rather you'll nuke it when you flash/install another kernel like stock maemo kernel or powerkernel. To start other than stock maemo kernel via uBoot, you have to provide the according kernel image files, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613 |
| 08:57.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: to put it utterly clearly: unstalling uBoot replaces any kernel you may have installed by uBoot+stock-kernel. Install uBoot on a thumb system and repoot:-> doomed, since bootloop |
| 08:57.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/unst/inst/ |
| 08:58.13 | CatButts | s/boot/poot |
| 08:58.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need to install uBoot and uboot-powerkernel-image "atomically", I.E without any boot in between |
| 08:59.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you mess up for whatever reason (battery empty, system locks up, whatever), you're lost and have to do a full reflash |
| 09:01.48 | Maxdamantus | Why not just do a reflash of the right u-boot image/kernel? |
| 09:02.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you most likely also want to tweak uBoot so it boots to powerkernel by default |
| 09:03.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you never may touch the uBoot powerkernel image after that and break it in any way, since otherwise, you guessed it: bootloop and pending full reflash |
| 09:03.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | well you could try fixing stuff via rescueOS |
| 09:05.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | thumb works just great... as long as all works. When you need any recovery mode or want to mess with your system, you're usually pretty much on your own and nothing works like described in wiki etc |
| 09:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | that being said, I didn't need any recovery or felt like messing with my system in a few years now. So I as well could have installed powerkernel and thumb years ago and probably hardly would recall the fact |
| 09:11.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | you *might* want to keep a disk image of complete rootfs (and /opt) on your eMMC or uSD and learn how to flash NAND and eMMC ext3 partition from within uBoot menu |
| 09:12.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | when however uBoot itself gets upset, you're lost |
| 09:14.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | pnders to try formatting initrd NAND partition as a 'floppy' |
| 09:14.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | dirty hack, ignoring bad blocks and whatnot |
| 09:14.32 | Maxdamantus | has restored (to additional devices) by just booting into rescueOS, exporting the entire eMMC using g_file_storage then partitioning/copying stuff just using his computer. |
| 09:14.38 | Maxdamantus | and flashing using flasher. |
| 09:14.44 | Maxdamantus | (flashing the kernel) |
| 09:14.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | but a rather safe place for the few additional tiny ascii files uBoot needs |
| 09:16.23 | Maxdamantus | and probably just tar over g_ether for ubifs. |
| 09:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | for ubifs the initrd partition is too smal :-S |
| 09:18.28 | Maxdamantus | has a separate partition on eMMC for kernels, could put initrds in there if he wanted them. |
| 09:22.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | also wonders how hard it could be to create a FIASCO image with powerkernel, and another one with fully configured uBoot + PK image + default boot to PK |
| 09:32.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bm |
| 09:32.06 | infobot | [backupmenu] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975, or one-click install handling dependency issues: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/et_al/HAM-catalogs/BM.install |
| 09:33.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 >>*Can I restore my BackupMenu images through the Nokia Flasher?* Not currently. This is a planned feature, but not in the current version. It -is- possible to convert a BackupMenu image to a Nokia Flasher rootfs image, but it requires a Linux PC with mtd-utils<< Hmm does it really? |
| 09:34.49 | Maxdamantus | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:36.30 | Maxdamantus | $ epm -qf `which mkfs.ubifs` |
| 09:36.30 | Maxdamantus | mtd-utils-1.5.0 |
| 09:37.23 | Maxdamantus | Presumably if you can get mkfs.ubifs to compile/run on Windows, you could do it there. |
| 09:37.48 | Maxdamantus | I imagine there's some chance it would already just work on macOS. |
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| 09:42.23 | CatButts | is fancy maemo package manager just frontend to apt-get or is there more to it? |
| 09:42.59 | CatButts | say, if I decide to apt-get a particular application instead of using maemo's package manager |
| 09:43.24 | Maxdamantus | Yes. |
| 09:43.57 | Maxdamantus | I think there's slightly more to it, but it basically works the same way as apt-get. |
| 09:44.29 | Maxdamantus | I think the categorisation it has might be an extra maemo thing, but you should still be able to install all packages through apt-get. |
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| 10:35.29 | CatButts | hmmm, I installed power kernel and noticed slight graphical corruption in the spinning loading animation at top of UI |
| 10:35.45 | CatButts | that's always a nice sign :P |
| 10:36.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: there's more to it. You may use apt-get install if you watch carefully what you're doing |
| 10:37.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | NEVER do apt-get upgrade or dist-upgrade or autoremove |
| 10:41.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | also you don't want to edit /etc/sources.list |
| 10:41.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | do that via HAM |
| 10:47.30 | sixwheeledbeast | ~hamvsfam |
| 10:47.30 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, hamvsfam is https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-10-28.log.html#t2013-10-28T10:44:33, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93227 |
| 10:48.13 | sixwheeledbeast | ~speedyham |
| 10:48.13 | infobot | it has been said that speedyham is 30 times faster than HAM https://github.com/community-ssu/hildon-application-manager, now included in CSSU. |
| 10:55.26 | CatButts | FAM is nice |
| 10:56.16 | CatButts | the one thing that bugs me about it is that it leaves you guessing which marked package prevents you from installing the rest |
| 10:56.23 | CatButts | due to dependencies |
| 10:56.36 | CatButts | so you discard whole list |
| 11:09.40 | CatButts | ah right, it does if you go through log |
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| 12:42.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~papman |
| 12:42.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fapman |
| 12:42.17 | infobot | well, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU), or actually for anything since ~speedyHAM. It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. In short, it's been identified as source of system corruption and thus deprecated, or see ~hamvsfam |
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| 13:33.19 | CatButts | here's a funny thing I noticed about charging |
| 13:33.33 | CatButts | I plug phone in usb with 21% |
| 13:33.41 | CatButts | probably enabled mass storage |
| 13:33.47 | CatButts | probably |
| 13:34.04 | CatButts | indicator sticks to 21% the whole time |
| 13:34.09 | CatButts | I reboot phone |
| 13:34.22 | CatButts | 61% |
| 13:39.52 | CatButts | maybe I'm daydreaming |
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| 14:56.53 | sixwheeledbeast | ~bme |
| 14:56.54 | infobot | bme is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME |
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| 14:59.20 | CatButts | >replacement goals |
| 14:59.23 | CatButts | >alpha |
| 14:59.25 | CatButts | >Not make the battery explode. |
| 14:59.30 | CatButts | noble |
| 14:59.33 | CatButts | :P |
| 15:00.40 | CatButts | the faux readings are probably result of me mucking around with kernels |
| 15:03.01 | kuzzmi | Hey folks, not sure I'm in the right place. Nevertheless, I'm currently looking at N800/N810/N900 as a Linux PDA for some occasional SSH'ing and terminal usage. How good is it nowadays? Which would you pick? Which has a better keyboard? Would you recommend it to a nerdy person, who's living in the terminal? |
| 15:04.46 | CatButts | for starters, the n900 has keypad which might be either 4 keys for direction or 2 keys for direction with modifier for other two directions, depending on locale |
| 15:05.07 | kuzzmi | Sounds sweet |
| 15:05.12 | CatButts | *depending on chosen keyset from options |
| 15:12.10 | kuzzmi | And for the rest? Are the keys clicky? |
| 15:14.43 | KotCzarny | not clicky |
| 15:14.56 | KotCzarny | but big fingers will be bad |
| 15:15.27 | KotCzarny | as for pda, hw kb is nice, and n900 prices are so low its not worth to look at n8x0 |
| 15:15.49 | KotCzarny | software will be a bit newer too for n900 |
| 15:16.51 | kuzzmi | Ok, thanks a lot. I guess I'll be a frequent guest here :) Cheers |
| 15:17.33 | pkill9 | also consider installing u-boot and booting archlinux-arm if you wanna use it as a terminal device |
| 15:17.43 | pkill9 | that's what i'm doing heh |
| 15:18.12 | kuzzmi | I've seen this name before, put it on my todo list |
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| 17:38.17 | CatButts | hey guise, I've been thinking |
| 17:39.17 | CatButts | around this parts, what's the policy on closed source binaries produced from reverse-engineering of other closed source software, uncomercially |
| 17:39.25 | CatButts | *these |
| 17:41.15 | CatButts | let's say, reversing software compiled to intermediary bytecode and porting it to something like C+SDL |
| 17:42.15 | CatButts | by hand |
| 17:42.40 | CatButts | coughoperaminiandj2megamescough |
| 18:09.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | kuzzmi: m,any users think N900 has the best kw kbd they ever used. I strongly recommend to go with plain stock maemo5 OS for starters |
| 18:09.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | plus CSSU of course |
| 18:09.31 | KotCzarny | +1 |
| 18:09.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 18:09.34 | infobot | well, cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) |
| 18:09.44 | KotCzarny | maemo is quite well thought out ui |
| 18:13.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: for maemo extras there's a ruls of conduct or whateveryoucallit you have to "sign" for each project you upload |
| 18:14.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we will immediately remove any package that violates those GPL rules |
| 18:15.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | community has no QA that checks each project in depth. Actually that's the big problem with extras-devel -> *-testing -> extras right now |
| 18:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we can only remove packages we realize are conflicting with the GPL |
| 18:16.55 | CatButts | does GPL imply open source only? |
| 18:17.09 | KotCzarny | yes |
| 18:17.27 | KotCzarny | to see, use and modify |
| 18:18.21 | CatButts | so where does user-made non-free go? |
| 18:18.30 | KotCzarny | in non-free |
| 18:18.44 | CatButts | and what are the policies there? |
| 18:18.58 | __axon__ | is there a patch for split screen in maemo? |
| 18:19.01 | KotCzarny | no-violating any copyrights |
| 18:37.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | split-screen? |
| 18:38.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | __axon__: please elaborate |
| 18:41.40 | KotCzarny | may be he wants non-fullscreen windows |
| 18:53.38 | __axon__ | DocScrutinizer05:Sometimes it might be helful to have side by side windows. |
| 18:54.52 | __axon__ | an other question: do you have any recommendations for n900 cases that protect the screen - and might be better than the sock that I am currently using ? |
| 18:56.39 | ShadowJK | kuzzmi, I've had N800, N810 and N900. The N810 has "more keys", and for that it's sometimes better for ssh. However, the N900 keys have greater depth to them, which for me made the N900 much quicker to type on. |
| 18:57.02 | ShadowJK | Any of then would probably be excellent for ssh use |
| 19:10.54 | __axon__ | anyone on cases? or split screens? |
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| 20:11.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | no split screens under hildon |
| 20:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | the screen is tiny enough |
| 20:12.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | for "cases", I use a "landscape" holster |
| 20:13.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | never thought of really using any additional always-on protective sleeve, though otterbox I got as a gift is pretty nice |
| 20:14.20 | CatButts | I vaguely remember someone here wanting to smooth scratches on touchscreen with acetone |
| 20:14.29 | CatButts | but refraining from doing so |
| 20:14.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | WAAAH!# |
| 20:15.14 | CatButts | I am pondering lending self to that expurriment, once I get replacement screen |
| 20:15.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | forget it, when you got a scratch on digitizer, all yoz possibly might do about it is car wax |
| 20:15.28 | KotCzarny | why not some abrasive powder + toothbrush? :P |
| 20:15.43 | CatButts | brushie brushie |
| 20:15.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | steel wool |
| 20:15.50 | KotCzarny | or belt sander ftw? |
| 20:15.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | *that's* it |
| 20:16.27 | CatButts | hey, I am lending my phone to SCIENCE, not brutal murder |
| 20:16.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're doing wut? |
| 20:16.45 | CatButts | might as well throw whole unit in lava |
| 20:17.03 | KotCzarny | or.. just use it as it is and stop worrying? |
| 20:17.18 | CatButts | I am replacing digitizer and was pondering trying home remedies on the ill digitizer before replacing |
| 20:17.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | try a PET water bottle for your experiments! that one is not only much cheaper, it also doesn't contain nasty silicon oil |
| 20:17.35 | KotCzarny | i havent noticed scratched screen to be a big issue (on one of my spares) |
| 20:19.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | acetone my ass |
| 20:19.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | already figures domesheet melt away and keymat varnish getting sticky |
| 20:22.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tried with polishing paste, dodn't work put well either |
| 20:22.35 | Maxdamantus | Regarding N900 keys, the keyboard layout I use has all printable ASCII characters mapped. |
| 20:22.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly if you want to try anything, try carnauba car wax |
| 20:23.08 | Maxdamantus | there's only one character that requires two modifiers. |
| 20:23.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | carefully, and immediately remove excess completely before it dries |
| 20:23.59 | Maxdamantus | I'd've liked to use the second key under the space bar for that instead, but the driver in Linux only emits a single code for both physical buttons. |
| 20:24.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | so only the scratch holds a trace of wax in it |
| 20:25.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | but honestly as long as the scratch isn't causing leakage of the oil, I think any cure is worse than the original issue |
| 20:26.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I've not seen any severe scratcjhes in any of my devices so far |
| 20:27.14 | CatButts | mine's scratchy and blurry with a single large gauge that has not yet pierced through |
| 20:27.29 | CatButts | the blurry bit is kinda irritating |
| 20:27.53 | CatButts | *gouge |
| 20:27.55 | KotCzarny | keep in mind if you overdo and pierce the touchscreen layer it can stop working |
| 20:29.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | it WILL stop working. Plus leak nasty silicon oil that may make the screen look blurry |
| 20:30.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | or somebody already tried polishing the thing which also causes dull blurry spots, I know since I did that |
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| 20:38.41 | Vajb | hmm how about lack? |
| 20:39.29 | Vajb | they refurbish car paint scratches with it at least |
| 20:42.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | well yeah, you *might* try UV-curing special transparent cyanoacrylate for fixing broken glass |
| 20:43.04 | KotCzarny | or just browse local classifieds ads and buy nice used screen n900 with broken usb/lcd for 5-10eur |
| 20:43.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | might be even better than carnauba, But I'd practice a 100 times on PET bottles before I'd dare doing that on a expensive device |
| 20:47.03 | Vajb | also i've seen some protective films for screens, that claim to contain some special silicone stuff which absorbs to scratches and makes them disappear |
| 20:52.26 | CatButts | absorb dicks |
| 20:52.35 | CatButts | and make them dissapear! |
| 20:53.05 | CatButts | worst scenario |
| 20:53.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | Vajb: yes, that's the same principle, fill scratches with a transparent fluid |
| 20:55.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn'r "absorb scratches and make them disappear", it just makes them invisible |
| 20:57.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | to really make scratches disappear in plastic, you need to recreate the surface with exactly same process used in manufacturing of the plastic film. Usually melting and sort of roll out |
| 20:57.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously can't get done when you don't have access to both sides of plain film |
| 20:58.03 | CatButts | obviously can't be done when you have shit already assembled |
| 20:58.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | it *might* be possible for a limited number of plastic material films to locally heat only the surface. You need *very* controlled process parameters for that |
| 20:59.37 | CatButts | gets his waffle grill |
| 20:59.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably you'd need *very very* hot air for very short period |
| 21:00.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe laser of useful wavelength and power could do too |
| 21:00.29 | KotCzarny | or just stop worrying about them, really, work one day, buy good n900, problem solved |
| 21:00.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, obviously |
| 21:00.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 21:01.08 | CatButts | all this started because I wanted to try other people's silly stuff on a spent digitizer |
| 21:01.23 | KotCzarny | time is money |
| 21:01.46 | CatButts | tell that to the guy that spent 6 months porting C to AS3 |
| 21:01.49 | KotCzarny | money is plentiful and goes all ways, your time not |
| 21:01.54 | CatButts | and learned both in proccesss |
| 21:02.08 | CatButts | yeah, point taken regarding the latter |
| 21:02.45 | CatButts | but hey, time-wasting binges |
| 21:03.15 | CatButts | as is above porting endeavour |
| 21:03.16 | KotCzarny | i have my n900 since 2009, not a single scratch on screen |
| 21:03.40 | CatButts | I bought mine 2nd hand, I don't know where it got shoved |
| 21:03.52 | KotCzarny | doing on the original battery too |
| 21:29.13 | pkill9 | did you ever have any usb port problems KotCzarny? |
| 21:29.34 | KotCzarny | nope |
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| 21:29.42 | KotCzarny | using the same original cable/charger |
| 21:30.10 | KotCzarny | always doing connect/disconnect in straight line without bending |
| 21:31.10 | KotCzarny | wort case is upward/downward bending |
| 21:31.15 | KotCzarny | *worst |
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| 22:08.53 | Maxdamantus | has one slightly annoying scratch (prevents smooth sliding using fingernails) on his main device. |
| 22:09.03 | Maxdamantus | (from before I bought it) |
| 22:09.25 | Maxdamantus | also has another N900 in quite good condition that he hasn't used as a primary device. |
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