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| 01:10.15 | jonwil | HOLY CRAP |
| 01:10.39 | jonwil | I found yet another BL-5J in my drawer and just managed to boot RescueOS on my device |
| 01:10.43 | jonwil | So my N900 is NOT dead |
| 01:10.46 | jonwil | and the USB is NOT broken |
| 01:12.05 | jonwil | I have now started rescueos charging script and intend to leave it alone until it says this particular BL-5J is 100% full |
| 01:19.35 | jonwil | Spoke too soon, the phone just died and wont boot rescueOS now |
| 01:19.52 | jonwil | I suspect all 3 batteries I have are too flat to succesfully boot rescueos and what just happened was a weird fluke |
| 01:23.04 | jonwil | That or the USB port is extremely flaky and only makes contact intermittently |
| 01:23.25 | jonwil | and it made just enough contact to boot RescueOS before stopping contact and causing RescueOS to due due to battery being low and unable to charge |
| 01:24.29 | jonwil | Still, its a sign my N900 is not dead |
| 01:25.28 | jonwil | and may well work if I can get a fully charged battery (and if need be, a repaired non-flaky USB port somehow) |
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| 03:53.44 | buZz | undead \o/ |
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| 04:55.02 | KotCzarny | jonwil: yeah, they are unkillable ;) |
| 04:55.10 | KotCzarny | as long there is power |
| 04:56.17 | jonwil | Yeah it seems like the only way to truly destroy a N900 is a hardware failure (e,g. totally broken USB, modem chip failure, whatever) or to get into a position where you have no battery juice and no way to charge the battery |
| 04:56.28 | jonwil | Its the second situation I seem to find myself in right now |
| 04:57.24 | jonwil | Need to find a way to get juice into one or more of the 3 batteries I have without spending a fortune or waiting weeks for something to arrive. |
| 04:59.24 | jonwil | So far the only option I have seen is to buy some random charger or phone from someone that either wants a fortune for it, is shipping it on a slow boat out of China or both,. |
| 04:59.30 | jonwil | Which doesn't help me :P |
| 05:01.18 | KotCzarny | are you good with manual skills? |
| 05:05.50 | KotCzarny | also, can you still return your replacement phone and get one that fits bl-5j? |
| 05:09.41 | jonwil | There are no phones sold in my area that take BL-5J |
| 05:09.50 | KotCzarny | darn. |
| 05:09.53 | jonwil | At least none that aren't super expensive and not worth buying |
| 05:10.04 | KotCzarny | asha 500 ? |
| 05:10.05 | jonwil | when I looked I didn't see anything branded Nokia at all |
| 05:10.09 | KotCzarny | ahm |
| 05:10.12 | jonwil | Either in the low or high end of the selection |
| 05:10.30 | jonwil | Plenty of iPhones and Galaxies at very high prices |
| 05:10.45 | KotCzarny | yeah, best profit on them |
| 05:10.46 | jonwil | and a few from HTC and Sony and things |
| 05:11.02 | jonwil | and then at the low end the usual low-end Android stuff (like the one I bought) |
| 05:11.16 | KotCzarny | anyway, are you good with manual skills? |
| 05:11.39 | jonwil | I have no skills or tools for soldering or that sort of work |
| 05:11.41 | jonwil | So that doesn't help |
| 05:11.47 | KotCzarny | no no, not that advanced |
| 05:11.58 | jonwil | what then? |
| 05:12.08 | KotCzarny | i was just thinking about making some wire extension from your new phone to bl-5j |
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| 05:12.47 | KotCzarny | but i would have to be stable enough not to create a short |
| 05:12.57 | KotCzarny | *it |
| 05:13.00 | jonwil | I dont think that would worh |
| 05:13.02 | jonwil | work |
| 05:13.06 | KotCzarny | i do |
| 05:13.14 | KotCzarny | li-ion is a li-ion |
| 05:13.39 | jonwil | Except when the battery is built into the phone and cant be removed |
| 05:13.43 | KotCzarny | lol |
| 05:13.57 | KotCzarny | your cheapo phone has nonremovable battery? |
| 05:14.10 | KotCzarny | that sucks |
| 05:14.18 | jonwil | Everyone is doing it for everything because its cheaper than removable battery :P |
| 05:14.29 | KotCzarny | but its just wrong |
| 05:14.35 | KotCzarny | for plenty of reasons |
| 05:14.37 | KotCzarny | :/ |
| 05:15.01 | jonwil | The market cares more about getting greater battery life for less money than about removable or replacible batteries |
| 05:15.18 | KotCzarny | then market should be educated |
| 05:15.49 | KotCzarny | anyway, look for any device that can charge li-ion |
| 05:16.17 | KotCzarny | for example some dev boards with allwinner chips have li-ion support |
| 05:16.55 | jonwil | I haven't a clue where I would get a dev board in Australia either |
| 05:18.05 | jonwil | Maybe laptops with removable batteries but A.Those are super-expensive and B.The battery compartments on those are such that I would never get any kind of access to the contacts. |
| 05:18.32 | jonwil | I have no devices in my house with that kind of lithium-ion batteries except my N900 |
| 05:18.49 | jonwil | My camera takes AAs |
| 05:20.16 | KotCzarny | nah, laptops usually use higher voltage |
| 05:20.28 | KotCzarny | got a power bank? |
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| 05:20.42 | KotCzarny | the cheapo kind that takes single 18650 battery |
| 05:21.09 | buZz | laptop batterypacks are just 18650 batteries joined together |
| 05:21.16 | buZz | break em open, pull em out ;) |
| 05:21.26 | KotCzarny | buzz, yes, but what i meant they arent suitable for charging single cell |
| 05:21.30 | buZz | unless you have a fruitcomputer, then you're fucked |
| 05:21.32 | buZz | KotCzarny: they totally are |
| 05:21.42 | buZz | once you seperate them |
| 05:24.41 | jonwil | I dont have a power bank or anything like that either |
| 05:25.41 | jonwil | The only lithium-ion batteries I have are the one in my new phone that is no help and the 3 dead BL-5Js |
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| 05:36.19 | KotCzarny | jonwil, maybe someone in your family has older, normal phone? |
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| 05:44.50 | jonwil | Nope, dont think so. |
| 05:45.06 | KotCzarny | weird land |
| 05:45.35 | jonwil | they probably dont have it because they dont keep old gear around :) |
| 05:47.42 | KotCzarny | i would imagine you guys hoarding stuff because of scarcity |
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| 06:04.33 | KotCzarny | jonwil, you may try looking for those http://www.cpkb.org/wiki/Nokia_BL-5J_battery#Compatibility |
| 06:04.54 | KotCzarny | maybe post some ad |
| 06:07.04 | jonwil | Already looked for those |
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| 06:10.26 | buZz | i got some bl-5j clones from ebay |
| 06:10.33 | buZz | the polarcell is the best though |
| 06:11.40 | KotCzarny | well, he has 3 batteries, and unable to charge them ;) |
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| 06:13.14 | buZz | oh eh |
| 06:13.47 | buZz | connect https://www.banggood.com/Mini-1A-Lithium-Battery-Charging-Board-Charger-Module-USB-Interface-p-89732.html with a couple wires |
| 06:14.12 | buZz | hook it to usb, wait maybe 30 minutes, then rescueos charge it |
| 06:14.22 | KotCzarny | his usb is also broken |
| 06:14.38 | buZz | then just fully charge with this device connected to battery :P |
| 06:14.44 | buZz | maybe not while its inside n900 |
| 06:16.20 | jonwil | I dont know for sure that my USB is broken |
| 06:16.39 | jonwil | That item doesn't help though because waiting for crap to come from china on a slow boat is useless to me |
| 06:17.09 | KotCzarny | if you order today, it should arrive eventually |
| 06:17.17 | KotCzarny | and having some tools is always useful |
| 06:18.07 | jonwil | But that wont help me with my immediate need to get a full BL-5J somehow |
| 06:18.30 | KotCzarny | yes, that's why you can order, and keep searching for immediate solutions too |
| 06:18.52 | KotCzarny | having universal li-ion charger in the house could save you later |
| 06:22.43 | jonwil | At this point I dont want to spend any money I don't need to |
| 06:34.39 | buZz | jonwil: you can pay loads extras for superfast shipping ^_^ |
| 06:35.01 | buZz | maybe you have a toy quadcopter? or other RC vehicle |
| 06:35.17 | buZz | those often use 1 cell, and very dumb chargers that'll just work fine |
| 06:38.11 | KotCzarny | powerbanks are cheaper |
| 06:38.21 | KotCzarny | especially those tiny 1-cell ones |
| 06:40.01 | buZz | just thinking what jonwil might have around |
| 06:40.09 | KotCzarny | sand |
| 06:40.12 | buZz | :) |
| 06:40.33 | KotCzarny | and killer nature |
| 06:43.32 | buZz | meh, all my 3.5-3.5mm audio cables are shit :P |
| 06:43.42 | buZz | just finished https://imgur.com/a/jk50e |
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| 07:33.11 | vectis3 | Nokia 5800 XpressMusic uses the same battery as the N900 |
| 07:34.11 | jonwil | No I dont have any drones |
| 07:34.13 | jonwil | or powerbanks |
| 07:35.52 | jonwil | Other than the new cheap phone and the N900, everything I have that takes batteries only takes regular batteries, not rechargeables or Li-Ion |
| 07:36.07 | jonwil | I have nothing that can charge a Li-Ion except the non-working N900 |
| 07:36.15 | KotCzarny | you need new friends |
| 07:36.29 | KotCzarny | that have phones with batteries |
| 07:36.31 | KotCzarny | :) |
| 07:37.36 | jonwil | I am investigating options to get hold of something that can charge the batteries I have |
| 07:41.46 | jonwil | I did some searches and one store that has outlets in my town has something called a "Universal Li-ion/Ni-Cd/Ni-MH Battery Charger" |
| 07:42.10 | jonwil | It says "⢠Suitable for: 1 x 3.6V or 7.2V Li-ion battery packs" |
| 07:42.32 | jonwil | The bl-5J is 3.7v though |
| 07:42.50 | jonwil | Anyhow, this store is somewhere I wouldn't have thought of looking |
| 07:44.39 | buZz | jonwil: should work though! if only just to charge ~10% , and then you can finalize charge on n900 |
| 07:44.42 | buZz | if usb works |
| 07:45.24 | jonwil | I will visit this chain and maybe other places as well with my BL-5J batteries and ask if they have anything external that is capable of charging them |
| 07:45.36 | jonwil | They may have other products that can do it |
| 07:45.55 | jonwil | Or maybe they will suggest this one as being suitable |
| 07:46.00 | jonwil | Either way I will see what I can find |
| 07:46.03 | buZz | yeah i did see some external bl-5j chargers |
| 07:46.08 | buZz | and also universal ones |
| 07:46.26 | KotCzarny | jonwil, li-ion and li-poly charge similarly |
| 07:46.41 | KotCzarny | there are tiny differences |
| 07:47.16 | KotCzarny | but should be safe to get 80-90% of the charge into battery |
| 07:51.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | or you just connect a USB PSU that doesn't provide more than 1000mA, for a max 30 min, while checking the battery temperature |
| 07:56.19 | jonwil | I will look into that charger since if it works for BL-5J it will mean I have a safe long-term-usable external charger for the things which will be good. |
| 07:58.20 | buZz | \o/ |
| 07:58.28 | buZz | more toys is more fun anway |
| 07:59.09 | jonwil | I also posted on an Aussie forum full of electronics geeks that I follow in case they have any leads |
| 08:00.12 | jonwil | Worst that can happen is I get no response on there and I move on :) |
| 08:00.15 | buZz | maybe you're near to one of these? https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Australia |
| 08:00.37 | jonwil | There is one in Brisbane but its very far away from me |
| 08:00.55 | buZz | yeah you guys are just a bit to unpopulated :P |
| 08:01.01 | buZz | breed faster! |
| 08:01.07 | buZz | ^_^ |
| 08:01.29 | buZz | higher population density gets you more of these closer to you |
| 08:01.31 | jonwil | Brisbane is very populated, we just dont have cheap real estate to set up such things as hackerspaces |
| 08:01.53 | buZz | hmhm, well once you have enough ppl, rent doesnt matter a lot any more |
| 08:02.19 | buZz | here you can rent a office 'anti-squat' for ~250 euro , i guess ~350 aud a month |
| 08:02.30 | buZz | 378.25 , i was close :P |
| 08:03.11 | KotCzarny | oh, charging li-ion with 5v? not a bright idea |
| 08:03.31 | jonwil | Definitely not |
| 08:03.42 | buZz | it wont prolong its lifetime :P |
| 08:03.43 | jonwil | Not when it says 3.7v on the battery itself |
| 08:04.01 | buZz | well internal resistance would push the voltage down anyway |
| 08:04.08 | buZz | especially when uncharged |
| 08:04.27 | jonwil | I will visit some shops tomorrow and see what I can find in the way of chargers. |
| 08:04.32 | buZz | but if a li+ is below 2.8V , many chargers reject it |
| 08:04.43 | buZz | and the 'just apply some power for some time' really does work to 'revive' it |
| 08:04.51 | buZz | it wont be a good battery |
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| 08:22.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah the experts |
| 08:23.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | take a few classes basic physics, then understand that a LiIon will explode when you charge it TO 5V |
| 08:23.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you can't charge it WITH 5V, you can however charge it with less than 1000mA |
| 08:24.06 | inz | Fun when done intentionally, accidentally not that much |
| 08:24.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then BL-5J has built-in protection circuit that can handle at least up to 12V |
| 08:25.03 | KotCzarny | lol |
| 08:25.08 | KotCzarny | jonwil, go for it :P |
| 08:25.17 | KotCzarny | doc said you can |
| 08:25.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and odds are ypour super duper universal charger is relying on that exclusively, charging the LiIon "with" 10V |
| 08:27.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | or do you think it has built-in AI that decides ift that's a NiCd, NiMH, 3V6 or 7V2 LiIon? |
| 08:27.29 | KotCzarny | it might have physical switch |
| 08:27.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I highly doubt that |
| 08:27.56 | KotCzarny | for nimh/nicd, they are charged similarly |
| 08:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 08:28.10 | KotCzarny | not the same, but similarly |
| 08:28.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually yiu need -delta V for NiMH |
| 08:29.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you charge NiMH in a NiCd charger, odds are they run away |
| 08:30.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | their cel voltage _drops_ when they get hot |
| 08:30.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they draw more current and get hotter.... |
| 08:30.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | A NiMH charger detects that drop in voltage |
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| 08:31.17 | KotCzarny | ok, you might be right that you can connect usb power to discharged li-ion, but you dont have any way of current limiting in such setup |
| 08:31.37 | jonwil | the universal charger I found has an LCD screen and a bunch of buttons/settings by the look of it |
| 08:31.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | read what I said |
| 08:31.46 | KotCzarny | so the only way to check the state of charge would be either temperature or measuring voltage on battery periodically |
| 08:31.52 | jonwil | so you can probably tell it what sort of battery you have |
| 08:31.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB power itself has mandatory current limit |
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| 08:32.24 | KotCzarny | doc, yes, but it's usually only good when liion is discharged |
| 08:32.29 | jonwil | Anyhow when I go to the shops tomorrow I will either find something I can use or know what I can try |
| 08:32.37 | KotCzarny | once its 30-50% full you have to limit current yourself |
| 08:32.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you can safely assume that an empty 1320mAh battery will cope with 30min of 1000mA |
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| 08:33.39 | KotCzarny | umkay |
| 08:33.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | KotCzarny: do you really think you can mess with an EE with 50 years experience about battery charging? |
| 08:33.52 | KotCzarny | hehe |
| 08:34.02 | KotCzarny | but there is still human factor |
| 08:34.16 | KotCzarny | in such uncontrolled setup, user can forget about it |
| 08:34.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I even calculated that too, I know jonwil for a few years now |
| 08:34.24 | KotCzarny | and have a tiny bomb waiting |
| 08:34.30 | KotCzarny | lol |
| 08:35.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | this procedure suggestion was tailored exactly for him and is not suitable for anybody else. Usually I strictly discourage that procedure for charging batteries |
| 08:36.23 | jonwil | I cant go with raw USB anyway since I have no spare USB cables and no way to expose the power wires |
| 08:36.29 | jonwil | no tools suitable |
| 08:36.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I knpow when I tell jonwil he must limit time to 30min and keep the battery temperature checked closely during that time, he will understand what that means# |
| 08:36.52 | jonwil | I will understand what it means |
| 08:37.15 | jonwil | But I dont have the patience to babysit a battery for 30 minutes |
| 08:37.26 | jonwil | I will go to the electronics and battery shops tomorrow and see what I can find and then go from there |
| 08:37.58 | jonwil | Either I end up with a suitable charger (which I can then use going forward as a general purpose USB charger) or I end up with nothing and I look for the next plan (whatever that might be) |
| 08:39.13 | KotCzarny | you will probably still have to fiddle to connect bl-5j to it |
| 08:40.18 | jonwil | yeah probably but if I need wires or whatever I can buy them somewhere as well |
| 08:40.27 | freemangordon_ | jonwil: there are some cheapo chinese "universal" chargers that actually work |
| 08:40.38 | KotCzarny | fmg: remember he is in australia |
| 08:41.02 | jonwil | This model I am seeing online is probably a cheapo chinese charger brought in by this company and marked up to $50 |
| 08:41.04 | freemangordon_ | so, no "made in china" import? i DOUBT :) |
| 08:41.16 | KotCzarny | fmg, not with his impatience |
| 08:41.17 | KotCzarny | ;) |
| 08:41.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | the cheapest "universal charger" I ever seen had a plastic case, two spring wires to attach to the battery contacts, a mains plug, a capacitor and a diode for rectifying and limiting mains current |
| 08:41.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn, what a dangerous and brainfucked device |
| 08:41.59 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: no, what I am talking about is a smart one, it detects the battery polarity etc |
| 08:42.44 | freemangordon_ | I guess the charge current is some 200-300 mA, but still |
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