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| 03:04.33 | LjL | DocScrutinizer05, you must be a stupid arrogant teenager who got an "openmoko engineer" cloak by virtue of not knowing the first thing about mobile networking |
| 03:04.37 | LjL | don't you even feel shame? |
| 03:05.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | blushes |
| 03:05.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | sory dear Sir |
| 03:07.14 | LjL | DocScrutinizer05, anyway, i like these two ancient greek telegraph ideas: one had two people on hills sit there with water clocks that had faces where each letter of the alphabet was printed. the person who wanted to send a message would uncover a lamp, and start the clock. the receiver, upon seeing the light, would also start his clock. when the clock hand reached the desired letter, the send would cover his lamp again, and both would stop the clock, and see |
| 03:07.14 | LjL | the letter that was intended for sending |
| 03:07.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw what would you think about bundling (sales) smartphones with a VPN service? |
| 03:08.14 | LjL | i don't like the concept of VPNs, it's just centralization again to me with the assumption that the centralizer is more of a good guy than the potential MITM would otherwise be :( |
| 03:08.54 | LjL | i like VPNs like Tinc or the way Syncthing works (although that's not a VPN, but imagine it were) |
| 03:08.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, it is |
| 03:09.26 | LjL | at the end of the day my solution to everything tends to be a DHT :P |
| 03:10.15 | LjL | in the VPN case a DHT would just let you not lose track of the addresses of the other clients in your own VPN, and help negotiate NAT punching |
| 03:10.46 | LjL | of course it's not like the *data* would go over it (although Syncthing has nodes that actually do that, when it's the only way to bypass NAT) |
| 03:11.33 | LjL | anyway, the other telegraph idea was less technical but probably a lot more feasible: the sender just had two lamps with various different lampshades available for them, specifically, 5 per lamp (imagine: fully open, fully closed, vertical, horizontal, cross-shaped) |
| 03:12.06 | LjL | there are 24 letters in the greek alphabet, so with a 5x5, the sender can easily send arbitrary letters by changing the lampshades in succession |
| 03:14.30 | LjL | i think it is not quite understood whether these ideas were just musings by thinkers, or were actually put into practice during wars |
| 03:14.56 | LjL | i bet the water clock idea wasn't put into practice successfully, though. it is fancy but just... no. |
| 03:17.56 | LjL | if i really were a teenager... maybe i'd be smart enough not only to come up with fancy networking idea, but also smart enough to implement them, and perhaps even energetic enough to push for their adoption |
| 03:18.11 | LjL | or not. i probably wouldn't. but still, i'd feel less powerless by a tad. |
| 03:20.37 | LjL | DocScrutinizer05, hey, this little computer-like thing might make you smile. i have it, only crowd-anything project i ever dared back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzqcfQo7rhs&list=PLUHYzV0mEx6G46uJVHPa5TLFpxWdxp6kt |
| 03:22.09 | LjL | (but well it failed miserably in having any degree of success, so maybe it's not so smile-worthy) |
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| 06:35.17 | sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: it completely slipped my mind. (GC). I'll handle right now |
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| 09:52.11 | KotCzarny | i wonder why linux has separate command 'swapon/swapoff' instead of just (u)mount -t swap |
| 09:52.34 | KotCzarny | kinda makes it unnecessary |
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| 11:02.05 | Maxdamantus | KotCzarny: because swap has pretty much nothing to do with mounts. |
| 11:02.53 | Maxdamantus | KotCzarny: except that they both can be handled by `mount` when they appear in /etc/fstab, but that's purely a userspace oddity. |
| 11:02.57 | KotCzarny | yes, still is in the same domain (disk partition/block device) |
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| 11:05.49 | Maxdamantus | What about reading/writing a partition table? That has to do with disks. Should that functionality be included in `mount(1)`? |
| 11:06.29 | KotCzarny | thats more into mkfs/mkswap |
| 11:06.39 | KotCzarny | so mkfs.partition |
| 11:06.43 | KotCzarny | or mkfs.gpt |
| 11:07.04 | Maxdamantus | When `mount(1)` adds swap, it doesn't even use the `mount(2)` call. |
| 11:07.19 | Maxdamantus | and swap is independent of things like mount namespaces. |
| 11:07.40 | Maxdamantus | The only reason it's included in `mount` is for the sake of fstab. |
| 11:08.11 | KotCzarny | are there other things that are in fstab but not in mount interest? |
| 11:08.18 | Maxdamantus | so you can put the adding of swap into the same place as the mounting of filesystems. |
| 11:08.37 | KotCzarny | and swap is a filesystem |
| 11:08.45 | Maxdamantus | It's not a filesystem. |
| 11:08.49 | KotCzarny | because it has structure |
| 11:08.59 | KotCzarny | not of files, but blocks |
| 11:09.04 | KotCzarny | well, allocations |
| 11:09.18 | Maxdamantus | You can't mount it with `mount(2)`, it doesn't appear in the VFS, it has no filesystem structure. |
| 11:09.35 | Maxdamantus | Otherwise you might as well call any data format a filesystem. |
| 11:09.40 | KotCzarny | then it might be interesting to add it to mount(2) |
| 11:10.26 | Maxdamantus | It doesn't appear in /proc/mounts |
| 11:10.35 | KotCzarny | same as above |
| 11:11.20 | KotCzarny | there was time when there wasnt ntfs in /proc/mounts (because it wasnt implemented) |
| 11:11.34 | Maxdamantus | If you could mount it, it would not be done to enable it as extra space for pages to swap to. |
| 11:11.54 | Maxdamantus | It would only be done to get a representation of its contents. |
| 11:12.23 | Maxdamantus | /proc/mounts shows your currently mounted filesystems. |
| 11:12.46 | KotCzarny | wouldnt it be nice if it showed used/total/free pages in df? |
| 11:13.03 | Maxdamantus | If you could mount ntfs somehow (eg, using fuse), it should still have appeared in /proc/mounts |
| 11:13.44 | Maxdamantus | What information would it actually show in `df`? If you reboot the system, do the numbers get reset? |
| 11:14.03 | KotCzarny | yes, because it would be representation of the mounted state |
| 11:14.16 | KotCzarny | not 'on disk' |
| 11:14.23 | Maxdamantus | That would be a very strange usecase for `df`, and if it didn't behave that way, it would be useless because it would pretty much always appear to be full. |
| 11:14.36 | KotCzarny | yup |
| 11:16.03 | Maxdamantus | It would also require special behaviour from `df`, since `df` calls `stat(2)` on the mount points it knows about (probably by reading /proc/mounts) to find information. |
| 11:16.31 | KotCzarny | yes, but it's up to kernel 'fs' driver to update those |
| 11:16.50 | Maxdamantus | and again, swap is completely independent of things like mount namespaces. |
| 11:16.51 | KotCzarny | and you can do whatever you need |
| 11:16.56 | KotCzarny | similar to what fuse does |
| 11:17.23 | Maxdamantus | If you enter a new mount namespace, you can forget about all of the mounts associated with the parent, but you'll still have the same swap. |
| 11:17.59 | KotCzarny | on the mountpoint you could have files similar to those in proc or sys |
| 11:18.24 | KotCzarny | which would allow to do config/stat type of actions |
| 11:18.46 | Maxdamantus | But what if you're in a new mount namespace and you unmount the swap mountpoint? |
| 11:19.13 | Maxdamantus | You won't see the swap that you will be potentially using. |
| 11:19.48 | Maxdamantus | also, what if you don't want to spam your mount namespace pointlessly with swap mountpoints? |
| 11:20.18 | Maxdamantus | and what happens if someone creates a new mount namespace, adds the swap, then exits? |
| 11:20.44 | KotCzarny | there will always be people who want/dont want particular ideas |
| 11:20.49 | Maxdamantus | Is anyone able to turn that swap off? |
| 11:21.02 | KotCzarny | sure |
| 11:22.06 | KotCzarny | because once you mount-over, it's up to you to know the consequences and act accordingly |
| 11:22.31 | Maxdamantus | I'm not talking about mounting over anything. |
| 11:22.45 | Maxdamantus | I'm talking about adding swap in a private namespace. |
| 11:23.14 | Maxdamantus | Swap isn't private (at least not in Linux); any pages can be moved into swap. |
| 11:23.46 | KotCzarny | and now there is a new idea, of private swapspaces |
| 11:24.42 | Maxdamantus | and it'd be kind of crappy if you can add swap in a private namespace then exit (causing the namespace to disappear and thus the mount point) then not be able to "unmount" the swap, ever. |
| 11:25.08 | KotCzarny | unless you make it umount automatically |
| 11:25.12 | Maxdamantus | private swapspaces sounds plausible, though it's obviously not the same as a mount namespace. |
| 11:26.01 | Maxdamantus | but it would have strange behaviour sometimes. |
| 11:26.49 | Maxdamantus | eg, if processes across different swap spaces are sharing memory, whose swap space is used when those pages are pushed out of RAM? |
| 11:27.15 | KotCzarny | i would guess private one would have priority |
| 11:27.30 | Maxdamantus | They could both be private. |
| 11:28.14 | Maxdamantus | though saying "the private one" is missing the point of namespaces. |
| 11:28.28 | KotCzarny | then the one that is accessible by both |
| 11:28.32 | Maxdamantus | the point of namespaces is to behave as if everything is private. |
| 11:29.10 | Maxdamantus | When the kernel runs the initial process, it's run in a particular mount/network/ipc/user namespace. |
| 11:29.54 | Maxdamantus | When you `unshare(2)`, all you're doing is creating more of these namespaces. There isn't a namespace that is particularly "private". |
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| 11:31.05 | Maxdamantus | The reason you'd call it private is because not many other processes are in that namespace. |
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| 11:39.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | what the ... ??? my tab nick-completion broke |
| 11:40.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: Generalantilles in online |
| 11:41.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | (tab) duh, there's an option "allow tabulations" in konversation that I never seen nor used before |
| 11:42.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | and what's most funny: it's in input box context menu but it's channel/tab specific |
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| 14:55.43 | LjL | KotCzarny, not everything that has some kind of structure is a filesystem, or RAM itself would be a filesystem as it mirrors swap's structure, but calling RAM a filesystem is far from standard nomenclature |
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| 15:40.15 | KotCzarny | just wait when nvm flash becomes standard |
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| 20:39.20 | LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i'm almost more worried about the audience's views expressed (including by votes) than by the corporate idea itself https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/75okqd/mozilla_might_offer_freemium_services_in_the/ |
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| 22:05.29 | jonwil | hi |
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