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| 00:21.33 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
| 01:30.16 | Oksana | DocScrutinizer : Thank you, keeping device battery-less for about 30s resolved the LEDs problem. And, I don't know what's up with battery coin cell, but it forgot time&date (as I expected it would; usually, I speed-swap batteries, to keep it from forgetting temporal location) |
| 01:30.58 | L29Ah_ | it's dead |
| 01:31.06 | L29Ah_ | they're virtually all dead by now afaik |
| 01:31.25 | L29Ah_ | replaceable with a soldering iron tho |
| 01:31.28 | hurrian | yep, you'll have to replace it with one of those capacitors |
| 01:31.47 | hurrian | (why weren't these capacitors in the first place?) |
| 01:32.10 | L29Ah_ | because they can't hold for long |
| 01:32.27 | L29Ah_ | having a few orders of magnitude less energy in them |
| 01:33.25 | L29Ah_ | and no one would have expected n900 to be the last successful gnu/linux device by nokia being preserved by a bunch of fans this long |
| 01:33.57 | hurrian | the RTC can draw off the main battery even when powered off right? |
| 01:34.03 | L29Ah_ | yes |
| 01:34.06 | L29Ah_ | a tiny bit |
| 01:36.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | the bupbat dies after ~12 monts usually |
| 01:36.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bupbat |
| 01:36.23 | infobot | from memory, bupbat is use the capacitive type, LiIon are breaking during 12 months, or http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/PAS414HR-VG1/587-2157-1-ND/1959153, or https://hbe-shop.de/Art-2112777-TAIYO-YUDEN-PAS414HR-VA5R-KONDENSATOR006F-33V-STAKED-COIN, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90864 |
| 01:36.26 | L29Ah_ | :D |
| 01:36.54 | L29Ah_ | mine was visibly leaked like a coin battery |
| 01:37.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, some even leak |
| 01:37.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | either they were a complete crap product, or Nokia and OM soldered them too hot |
| 01:38.07 | hurrian | I don't think there was any reasonable use case where someone would take the battery/leave it flat for 6 months and still expect alarms to work |
| 01:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just been best common practice to use LiMg(?) cell for that |
| 01:39.52 | hurrian | or maybe LiSOCl2 battery if they're available in the tiny coin form factor |
| 01:40.16 | hurrian | I've got a powermac G5 that still functions with its original PRAM battery about 15 years on... |
| 01:40.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | when it turned out those are crap, everybody moved to supercaps like ^^^ PAS414HR. Then flat phones with non-removable main battery became fashion and nobody needed any bupbat anymore |
| 01:41.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/supercaps like ^^^ PAS414HR/Polyacene supercaps/ |
| 01:45.42 | Oksana | Given that my ALS is obscured with a paper sticker (will take another year for it to wear off), I would need a really bright flashlight to get through to the light sensor. Would it make sense, at some time in distant future, to make all these brightness values user-editable (like LED patterns), instead of hard-coded? Or would it be too slow, ineffi |
| 01:45.42 | Oksana | cient, unreliable? |
| 01:47.29 | L29Ah_ | removing a paper sticker is easier than fixing it in software |
| 01:48.23 | Oksana | Yes, I know. But even when I set brightness at 1/5, and ASL thinks it to be night, I still find the display to be too bright at times (especially when it is night) |
| 01:48.53 | hurrian | Oksana: try baby oil? |
| 01:49.13 | hurrian | that's the "gentle" way to dissolve stickers, just takes som time |
| 01:49.18 | L29Ah_ | afair there's a lower limit on the brightness level |
| 01:49.52 | L29Ah_ | not sure if it's a hardware-bound limitation |
| 01:50.17 | L29Ah_ | maybe the brightness range exposed to user is coarser than actual pwm settings range |
| 01:52.08 | Oksana | Yes, brightness level exposed to user in Settings is coarse. Actual brightness is based on both ASL (ambient brightness) and user setting? |
| 01:52.10 | L29Ah_ | doesn't remember himself using n900 in actual darkness with accommodated eyes |
| 01:59.43 | L29Ah_ | Forbidden |
| 01:59.43 | L29Ah_ | You don't have permission to access / on this server. |
| 01:59.52 | L29Ah_ | wiki.maemo.org is being a bitch again |
| 02:04.10 | L29Ah_ | the range of influence of asl on the brightness is way too narrow |
| 02:05.18 | L29Ah_ | as for me it should be max(1,asl * user brightness setting) |
| 02:05.57 | L29Ah_ | and shut off the backlight completely when asl shows values over 10klux or so |
| 02:12.21 | Oksana | Okay... In darkness, have minimum brightness (1), in normal light get brighter together with ambient, in too bright light switch off the backlight (because transreflective?) |
| 02:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: it already does the latter |
| 02:39.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | the minimum is "1" in /sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/brightness |
| 02:40.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and SpeedEvil considered it too bright |
| 02:43.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem with brightness setting is probably it's a mere PWM power percentage setting (in milliWatt, or % ontime vs offtime with 400Hz PWM) while physiological brightness is logarithmic - you need to half the power to sense any difference in brightness |
| 02:44.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | so: 256, 128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1 |
| 02:44.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5 steps are basically OK |
| 02:45.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | for a 8bit linear value |
| 02:46.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the missing steps between 1 and 0 that hurts, I guess |
| 02:48.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw it's Ambient Light Sensor |
| 02:48.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ALS |
| 02:48.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0029/lux |
| 02:51.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | fun factoid re backlight: there are TWO ways to control it: acx565akm/brightness, plus a GPIO or even PWM (I didn't check details) from CPU itself |
| 02:51.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I also never tried to use the second one |
| 02:52.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea what for the Nokia EEs implemented it |
| 02:52.43 | L29Ah_ | 05:43:42]<DocScrutinizer05> the problem with brightness setting is probably it's a mere PWM power percentage setting (in milliWatt, or % ontime vs offtime with 400Hz PWM) while physiological brightness is logarithmic - you need to half the power to sense any difference in brightness |
| 02:52.44 | L29Ah_ | physiological brightness is irrelevant when we're comparing it against illuminance provided by asl |
| 02:52.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | als |
| 02:53.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | who compares what? |
| 02:53.29 | L29Ah_ | 05:38:29]<DocScrutinizer05> L29Ah_: it already does the latter |
| 02:53.29 | L29Ah_ | no, i see it is able to set much lower brightness when it's about to shut the display off completely due to lock timeout |
| 02:54.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O what? |
| 02:54.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry you lost me |
| 02:54.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | or prolly I lost you |
| 02:55.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | the latter == shut off the backlight completely when asl shows values over 10klux or so |
| 02:55.44 | L29Ah_ | oh nvm disregard the timeout thing |
| 02:55.53 | L29Ah_ | it actually does that on the lowest brightness setting |
| 02:56.15 | L29Ah_ | but it is bad you must adjust the brightness settings to the ambient light manually |
| 02:56.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | does what? |
| 02:56.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't get a word of what you say |
| 02:56.38 | L29Ah_ | comes to the brightness level that is used a second before the screen lock timeout |
| 02:58.15 | L29Ah_ | although it's 7, not 1 |
| 02:58.23 | L29Ah_ | also 0 = 1 on my n900 |
| 02:58.26 | L29Ah_ | and the lowest is 2 |
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| 02:58.57 | L29Ah_ | er, nope |
| 02:59.03 | L29Ah_ | damn timeout |
| 02:59.26 | L29Ah_ | okay, the lowest is 1, but it is never set by the brightness control logic |
| 03:00.27 | L29Ah_ | and actually 1 seems to be good for a forest under half a moon worth of light |
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| 03:04.37 | L29Ah_ | Forbidden |
| 03:04.38 | L29Ah_ | FUCK |
| 03:06.45 | L29Ah_ | maemo.org admin is an evil bastard |
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| 09:07.24 | parazyd | freemangordon: we're almost ready :) yesterday there were two successful devuan installs using the repo that our amprolla made |
| 09:08.18 | parazyd | now just to finish the updating part, and then we can hopefully use the CI seamlessly |
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| 09:15.06 | jonwil | hi |
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| 09:43.39 | badcloud- | hello |
| 09:44.32 | badcloud- | has any one managed to pull off triple boot (CSSU Thumb/Arch/Nitdroid)? |
| 09:47.34 | badcloud- | I've tried multiple times but have always got stuck when cssu thumb blocks installation of uboot |
| 10:57.45 | badcloud- | are there any new phones running maemo these days? |
| 11:05.18 | kerio | no |
| 11:06.30 | badcloud- | kerio: or otherwise, any phones more advanced in hw than the n900? |
| 11:06.37 | kerio | the neo900 i guess |
| 11:06.53 | badcloud- | kerio: right, thanks |
| 11:09.03 | badcloud- | kerio: are you a developer? |
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| 15:48.03 | L29Ah_ | parazyd: where can i read about the devuan status? |
| 15:48.19 | parazyd | what kind of status? |
| 15:48.45 | L29Ah_ | what's ready and what has to be done to port devuan to n900 and use all its hardware |
| 15:49.03 | parazyd | not sure |
| 15:49.10 | parazyd | freemangordon, Wizzup ^^? |
| 15:49.38 | parazyd | but i believe most of the hardware works |
| 15:49.43 | parazyd | ... already |
| 15:49.58 | L29Ah_ | can i make calls? |
| 15:49.58 | parazyd | if not all |
| 15:50.24 | parazyd | Wizzup mentioned someone did, but with very lousy quality, and pulseaudio |
| 15:50.32 | parazyd | i think machek did |
| 15:50.49 | parazyd | modem works with ofono |
| 15:53.06 | Wizzup | L29Ah_: audio call is still difficult. most of the other parts just work. sans power saving (afaik) and usb host hacks. |
| 15:53.29 | Wizzup | L29Ah_: but that status is similar to gentoo on my n900. we're chasing devuan to make it easy to use/update/run. |
| 15:53.52 | Wizzup | calls wil require further RE if pulseaudio, which might happen, but we first need to get some other things done. |
| 15:54.08 | Wizzup | 'amprolla' was required to be able to properly build pkgs for maemo w/ devuan infra |
| 15:54.30 | Wizzup | parazyd: the poor quality was -without- pa |
| 15:54.32 | L29Ah_ | who needs pulseaudio anyway |
| 15:54.36 | Wizzup | if we ge the proper pa pugins ported, it can work. |
| 15:54.43 | parazyd | oh |
| 16:01.58 | bencoh | Wizzup: meaning you've tested pavel work on audio/telephony? |
| 16:02.04 | bencoh | pavel's* work |
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| 16:04.33 | Wizzup | no, I reported on what pavel wrote to me. but I have instructions on how to reproduce. |
| 16:05.14 | Wizzup | I cannot test it now since calls are 2EUR /minute here in hong kong for me |
| 16:07.14 | bencoh | ah... |
| 16:07.23 | bencoh | wait, what?! |
| 16:07.45 | bencoh | 2E/min?! |
| 16:08.02 | bencoh | international roaming? |
| 16:08.14 | parazyd | it's not the EU |
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| 16:32.48 | freemangordon | L29Ah_: define "port devuan to n900 and use all its hardware". I mean - do you need DE or console only, which HW, etc etc. also, it is not devuan that provides support for the HW, but kernel. see http://elinux.org/N900 for what is the status |
| 16:33.48 | L29Ah_ | actually i don't know how's ofono doing |
| 16:33.59 | L29Ah_ | it looked rotten a year or two ago |
| 16:34.12 | L29Ah_ | and i don't know if it's possible to make voice calls w/o it |
| 16:35.03 | freemangordon | me neither, pavel posted some success, but I don't know the details |
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| 16:42.38 | Wizzup | bencoh: yeah, international |
| 16:42.51 | Wizzup | L29Ah_: ofono works |
| 16:42.57 | Wizzup | at least for internet |
| 16:43.07 | Wizzup | I have that working. calls I have not been able to test extensively. |
| 16:43.12 | Wizzup | 'rotting for 1 year' does not seem that bad |
| 16:46.26 | bencoh | L29Ah_: iirc there are several versions/forks of ofono and it didnt sem abandoned last time I checked |
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| 17:19.03 | Enrico_Menotti | freemangordon Hello. I have been able to apply your patches to gtk+ with quilt. But still does not build. On Sunday I reported here details of the error I get. |
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| 17:27.22 | freemangordon | Enrico_Menotti: ok, will look at it as soon as I have some spare timr |
| 17:27.40 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok, thank you. |
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| 19:59.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.osso.nl/ o.O |
| 20:02.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((<freemangordon> L29Ah_: define "port devuan to n900)) thanks! |
| 20:03.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | and when ofono is abandoned, I'd rather prefer to pick FSO every day |
| 20:04.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fso |
| 20:04.17 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fso is the freesmartphone.org mobile devices middleware. http://www.freesmartphone.org// |
| 20:04.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~shr |
| 20:04.21 | infobot | i guess shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed. |
| 20:07.40 | L29Ah_ | shr is rotten |
| 20:07.57 | sicelo | :D |
| 20:07.59 | L29Ah_ | and is basically gentoo forked long time ago |
| 20:10.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | err wut? |
| 20:12.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | you won't find the 3 months old ultra bleeding edge system that comes with stuff having 20 years of stabilizing/riping |
| 20:12.47 | bencoh | s/gentoo/openembedded/ |
| 20:13.05 | L29Ah_ | openembedded is a gentoo fork |
| 20:13.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.freesmartphone.org//implementations/ has nice building blocks, is *not* rotten, and SHR used FSO since 7+ years to implement dialer and whatnot, also on N900 |
| 20:13.55 | bencoh | s/fork/inspired by/ |
| 20:14.12 | bencoh | but yeah, okay ... a *really* long time ago |
| 20:14.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | openembedded is an Angstrom fork |
| 20:15.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka "linux for stiching machines" |
| 20:15.07 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: nope |
| 20:15.28 | bencoh | angstrom is (used to be) an openembedded-based distribution |
| 20:15.37 | bencoh | but anyway |
| 20:15.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that |
| 20:15.56 | L29Ah_ | https://github.com/freesmartphone/cornucopia/commits/master i'd name this rotting |
| 20:16.15 | L29Ah_ | yet worth giving a shot |
| 20:16.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't care what you name it |
| 20:17.01 | L29Ah_ | tell us if you succeed building it |
| 20:17.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you follow the "as long as there's no new bug every week, it must be abandoned" definition of rotten? |
| 20:17.19 | bencoh | L29Ah_: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/network/ofono/ofono.git btw |
| 20:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | shakes head on people thinking of code like of hamburger meat |
| 20:19.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | and why would *I* tell *you* about building FSO? Why don't *you* tell MickeyL? |
| 20:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | you get response and competent help within 24h. My defin ition of the opposite of abandoned/rotten |
| 20:23.24 | L29Ah_ | https://github.com/freesmartphone/cornucopia/issues it certainly is then |
| 20:24.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you het what you pay for. come up with something better, dude! |
| 20:24.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess you want android |
| 20:25.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | piecemeal from a very short menu, made fresh for your nausea every other week |
| 20:27.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | each time with an icing of new rogueware and new bugs |
| 20:27.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | you think of hamburger meat, I think of brandy or whiskey |
| 20:30.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess what's Devuan! it tries to keep that "rotten" stuff, to get rid of that new cancer introduced by nitwits who want "fresh" |
| 20:35.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly what sense is in "no matter if it *works* or has any value, as long as it **builds** on kernel7.384"? |
| 20:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't you think fixing building issues is way easier than fixing design flaws and lacks in functionality? |
| 20:47.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | loosely related: |
| 20:47.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/x> tar --version |
| 20:47.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | tar (GNU tar) 1.26 |
| 20:47.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | Copyright © 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. |
| 20:47.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | rotten? |
| 20:50.12 | L29Ah_ | was that the version where you can run some arbitrary code using a specially crafted tarball? |
| 20:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hardly, otherwise it had been patched since |
| 20:52.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | you however seem to look for a version that doesn't exist at all, or if it exists it can't run itself |
| 20:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is the new fresh middleware for phones that is *not* android? |
| 20:54.44 | L29Ah_ | dunno what "middleware" is |
| 20:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't get it what you're looking for |
| 20:54.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that's the problem |
| 20:55.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki middleware |
| 20:55.49 | L29Ah_ | i don't look for anything, i'm whining about no mainstream distros being ready even for a basic phone functionality on n900 |
| 20:56.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess why! since everybody is whining instead of doing something |
| 20:57.42 | L29Ah_ | DocScrutinizer05: btw can you /facilitate/ removing the stupid forbidden thing on maemo.org? |
| 20:57.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and, understanding the concepts of embedded systems and middleware and phones at large, you'd get why no maintream distro ever will be |
| 20:57.53 | L29Ah_ | found out there's https://wiki.maemo.org/Devuan_on_N900 yet fuck me |
| 20:58.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: sorry, nope, I bitched a lot about why even reading (without login and thus writing new posts) needs to be protected by those blacklists shit |
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| 20:59.56 | L29Ah_ | ~techstaff |
| 20:59.56 | infobot | well, techstaff is techstaff(AT)maemo.org - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/ |
| 21:02.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, writing to techstaff (incl your IP), or pinging chem|st (or yes, or warfare?) in here is all you can do. Except of getting a better IP |
| 21:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/or yes/or xes/ |
| 21:03.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I think talk.maemo.org already told ya, no? |
| 21:04.03 | L29Ah_ | told what? |
| 21:04.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a royal PITA |
| 21:04.32 | L29Ah_ | how do i get root on maemo.org? |
| 21:04.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't tmo rise a page with intructions what to do about that 'ban'? |
| 21:04.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: WUT? |
| 21:05.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | hands L29Ah_ a carrot |
| 21:05.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | here's your root |
| 21:05.37 | L29Ah_ | ok enjoy the royal pita |
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| 21:06.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's only 3 people getting root on all maemo servers afaik. Xes and warfare are the other two |
| 21:07.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you need root on a particular VM like talk.maemo.org, repo.m.o or whatever, talk to council and techstaff and explain what you want to contribute |
| 21:09.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | odds are you won't get root permissions nevertheless, rather a usual unix user account and a communication channel to the master sysops why will integrate your stuff, after checking it |
| 21:09.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/why/who |
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