IRC log for #maemo on 20170416

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00:19.19*** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet
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06:45.03KotCzarnyhttp://www.techamok.com/?pid=18516
06:45.07KotCzarnyfunsies
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06:52.49KotCzarnyand 'leaked' means even mor funsies
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07:18.24Maxdamantuspagurus' connection must be worse than mine.
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08:02.48KotCzarnymaxd: apparently, or just shitty irc client
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09:00.43keriohow do i VPN
09:02.15freemangordonwonders who hacked kerio's account
09:02.30kerio:<
09:02.35keriono like
09:02.40kerioin maemo
09:02.45keriopossibly something with a GUI
09:03.00kerioi wonder if i can just proxy the SIP stuff actually
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09:03.23freemangordonkerio: there are a couple of choices in HAM
09:03.23keriobut SIP uses udp, and my usual solution of shoving everything into ssh won't work
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09:30.45KotCzarnyfmg: can you ban pagurus temporarily?
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10:53.33Zungowhoa
10:54.06Zungothat dude has a pattern
10:54.09Zungonot shitty client
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10:54.22Zungoseem intentional
10:54.26Zungoor maybe not
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12:34.17merlin1991kerio: openvpn all the things
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14:29.02Zungoreport this guy to staff
14:29.23*** join/#maemo capitanocrunch (~capitanoc@unaffiliated/capitanocrunch)
14:36.18keriois there some sort of log for the builtin SIP client?
14:42.14*** join/#maemo pagurus (~user@79.220.56.76)
14:46.38*** join/#maemo pagurus (~user@p4FDC384C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
14:58.22Zungokerio, try /var/logs? (not sure if that is valid)
14:58.28Zungoand/or syslog
14:58.30Zungohmm
15:00.28*** join/#maemo dafox (~dafox@ip3e8380c8.speed.planet.nl)
15:00.36bencohkerio: apart from the eventdb you mean?
15:00.38bencohdebug logs?
15:21.33xeskerio: what are you doing? are you hitting the bug about the wrong source ip into sip packets?
15:21.41kerioxes: no clue
15:21.51kerioi don't really know how SIP works
15:22.25keriohowever, zoiper on my computer through the n900 connection works
15:22.40keriowhich was pretty amazing, since the n900 was using a vpn to my home machine, but
15:23.21*** join/#maemo xy3_ (~xy2_@10.245.16.93.rev.sfr.net)
15:23.34xeskerio: if you are using sip inside a vpn you need to correct sip source ip into maemo
15:23.42keriohow do i do that :<
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15:27.08xes<PROTECTED>
15:27.23keriothe local ip?
15:27.29keriobecause i have at least two NATs from this
15:27.56xesthere should also a wiki somewhere about this issue...
15:28.11keriowhat's mc-tool
15:28.37keriooh, libmissioncontrol-utils
15:29.05*** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
15:29.09kerioD:
15:29.28*** mode/#maemo [+b pagurus!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05
15:29.43*** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
15:29.44xesthen maybe you have to fix some wrong packet with an iptables snat
15:30.05kerionouuu
15:35.44kerioDocScrutinizer05: why not a forward-ban to ##fix_your_connection
15:45.12*** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@x4e34eab0.dyn.telefonica.de)
15:49.21DocScrutinizer05kerio: tell me how to do that
15:50.30DocScrutinizer05doesn't know about forward-bans in freenode
16:08.54peetah1
16:09.02peetahoops sorry
16:09.14kerioDocScrutinizer05: append `$##fix_your_connection` to the ban mask
16:09.36*** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
16:10.27*** mode/#maemo [-b pagurus!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05
16:10.33*** mode/#maemo [+b pagurus!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05
16:11.11DocScrutinizer05I don't see a difference, I think this works only with chanserv akick
16:11.40kerioDocScrutinizer05 sets mode +b pagurus!*@*
16:11.53kerioare you doing /mode +b pagurus!*@*$##fix_your_connection
16:11.53DocScrutinizer05so?
16:11.58DocScrutinizer05yes
16:12.03DocScrutinizer05meh no
16:12.15*** mode/#maemo [-b pagurus!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05
16:12.36*** mode/#maemo [+b pagurus!*@*$##fix_your_connection] by DocScrutinizer05
16:12.39kerioyay
16:12.56keriolet's see if pagurus ends up there
16:13.27keriowait, pagurus is here
16:13.28kerio:o
16:13.35DocScrutinizer05I don't see much anyway, since usually I have ignore join/nick/part
16:14.04DocScrutinizer05pagurus: please fix your connection
16:15.53*** mode/#maemo [-b pagurus!*@*$##fix_your_connection] by DocScrutinizer05
16:16.07*** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
16:16.21pagurushey guys, sorry for the join spam
16:16.51pagurusits my reconnect script for rcirc in emacs, I tried to fix it...
16:17.03pagurusdamn daily disconnect
16:20.37DocScrutinizer05np. just maybe consider to test with a list of dummy channels to autojoin, until you're happy with how the script works
16:27.17Zungoah ok
16:27.29Zungogg
16:29.44DocScrutinizer05kerio: I start to forget skills since I never use then :-S  https://freenode.net/kb/answer/channelmodes
16:43.14keriozoiper on ios connects just fine to SIP :<
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16:52.17DocScrutinizer05gets headache trying to grok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv4_subnetting_reference#Classful_networks
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16:56.07kerioDocScrutinizer05 i can cheat my home ISP ;o
16:56.30DocScrutinizer05hm?
16:56.44kerioi have a VDSL at home
16:56.49kerioso my landline goes through voip
16:57.03keriohowever, it's all managed
16:57.12DocScrutinizer05eew
16:57.18keriothey don't just give you the SIP parameters
16:57.21kerioBUT
16:57.38keriothey give you an app to do phone calls from a smartphone if you're connected to the wifi
16:57.54kerioMITM the app, get the credentials, VPN
16:58.02kerioi can use my landline anywhere in the world now ;o
16:58.21DocScrutinizer05hmm, weird intricate approach but nifty
16:58.48kerioand i have free national calls from my landline ;o
16:58.58DocScrutinizer05:-)
16:59.10kerionow if only i could do that from the n900... >:(
16:59.25DocScrutinizer05oh ugh
16:59.55keriotbh i only managed to take and receive calls with zoiper (desktop and ios)
17:00.01DocScrutinizer05how about installing asterisk 'at home'?
17:00.13kerioDocScrutinizer05: that could be an option
17:00.28keriocan it work as a "SIP bouncer" of sorts?
17:00.35DocScrutinizer05sure
17:00.41kerio༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ gibe config
17:00.44DocScrutinizer05asterisk is a B2B-UA
17:01.21kerioi will only install asterisk if it's available in the freebsd ports
17:01.27kerioit is ;o
17:01.27DocScrutinizer05aka back to back user agent
17:02.12kerioDocScrutinizer05: that sounds like a pretty amazing idea actually
17:02.19keriowhere the fuck were you like 6 hours ago
17:02.25DocScrutinizer05you should be able to make asterisk log in to your managed VoIP as if tiwere a client, and connect to asterisk via SIP from N900
17:02.51kerioi can even run it in a jail ;o
17:02.52kerioi like jails
17:02.55DocScrutinizer05s/tiwere/it were/
17:05.13kerioDocScrutinizer05: what are the cpu requirements for asterisk?
17:05.25keriowill i ever run into CPU bottlenecks, for instance
17:05.46DocScrutinizer05added benefit: you can use asterisk to call any extension from any extension, and you can even have multiple 'public lines' in same PBX
17:06.13DocScrutinizer05no, asterisk doesn't do any heavy lifting with CPU
17:06.22keriodoesn't it do audio transcoding tho
17:06.37DocScrutinizer05basically works like a packet forwarder
17:06.56DocScrutinizer05it *might* do transcoding, yes
17:07.12DocScrutinizer05but on a ridiculous rate, for modern PCs
17:07.17keriooh right, phones
17:08.32kerioDocScrutinizer05 theres ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN CONFIG FILES
17:09.00DocScrutinizer05yes, it's a PITA to cinfig
17:09.14*** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@x55b2b878.dyn.telefonica.de)
17:09.15DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-to-back_user_agent
17:09.44keriowhy can't i just use sippy_b2bua
17:11.50DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterisk_(PBX)
17:12.05DocScrutinizer05I don't know sippy_b2bua
17:12.17DocScrutinizer05you prolly can use it as well
17:12.42DocScrutinizer05any B"BUA should do
17:12.47DocScrutinizer05B2BUA
17:16.45DocScrutinizer05kerio: yop dawg, heard you like jails. So how about running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreePBX_Distro in a VM jail to have jails in your jails
17:16.59kerioOperating systemGNU/Linux
17:17.07kerioDISGUSTING
17:25.54DocScrutinizer05feels like "Huh? WTF?!" each time wikipedia starts babbling about their "primary source" policies. Like >>This article relies too much on references to primary sources. Please improve this by adding secondary or tertiary sources.<<
17:27.12DocScrutinizer05seems you can't write your own stuff in wikipedia, and you can't quote original sources. You need to quote others quoting original sources or writing their original stuff, which is weird and I feel like I got this comletely wrong
17:29.48kerioDocScrutinizer05: socat UDP4-RECVFROM:5060,fork UDP4-SENDTO:5.97.53.8:5060
17:29.51DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability >>Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors.<<
17:29.54keriothis is so fucking dumb lmao
17:30.32DocScrutinizer05kerio: this is SIP only, what about RTP?
17:30.38keriowhat is RTP
17:30.51DocScrutinizer05the 'payload channel' for VoIP
17:31.33DocScrutinizer05SIP= Session INITIATION Protocol,  RTP = Realtime TRANSFER Protocol
17:32.47DocScrutinizer05SIP negotiates RTP.<codec>.<rate>.<portA>-<portB> between both clients
17:32.49keriowell i was able to PLACE a call at least
17:32.52kerio:^)
17:33.18kerioDocScrutinizer05: this doesn't make a lot of sense tho
17:33.37keriowhy was i able to make it work by routing just that one address in openvpn then
17:33.45keriooh i guess that the address is the same
17:33.49DocScrutinizer05NFC
17:34.44DocScrutinizer05while SIP is usually via a registrar server, the real payload aka call is client<->client usually
17:36.33DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SIP_call_flow_between_UA,_Redirect_Server,_Proxy_and_UA.png  --> "Media (RTP)" in red
17:37.52kerioyeah but the other "client" is always some fake thing
17:38.12keriobecause this is strictly landline-landline
17:38.35kerioi guess that the SIP registrar also acts as the other client
17:38.36DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SIP-B2BUA-call-flow.png
17:39.01DocScrutinizer05yes, registrars often act as B2VUA too
17:39.07DocScrutinizer05B2BUA
17:40.03DocScrutinizer05particularly registrars resp VoIP providers have gateways VoIP<->POTS
17:40.52DocScrutinizer05so more often than not you have a call setup like VoIP<->POTS- - - POTS<->VoIP
17:42.50DocScrutinizer05if you call a phone number (not a SIP address), you regularly end on your provider's gateway to POTS
17:47.06DocScrutinizer05SIP is a tad more compley than most people tend to think. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol
17:47.16DocScrutinizer05complex
17:48.34DocScrutinizer05if you want to learn about it, I strongly recommend using twinklephone, written by one of the authors of the IETF SIP RFCs
17:50.56DocScrutinizer05twinkle has great logging that helps understand what's really going on
17:51.55DocScrutinizer05(NEVER EVER use the "show log" menu item, it is braindead Qt shit that needs ~100byte of RAM for each byte of text in log)
17:52.12keriobut Twinkle is available for Linux only
17:52.19DocScrutinizer05no
17:52.26keriothat's what the page says :<
17:52.53DocScrutinizer05twinkle been developed and tested at least on BSD, linux, Solaris, and a number of other platforms
17:55.22DocScrutinizer05the GUI should run on all platforms that have Qt3, the CLI client on all POSIX platforms
17:55.39*** join/#maemo sfa (~sfa@108-89-35-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
17:56.47kerioDocScrutinizer05: does it support OSS
17:56.55DocScrutinizer05OSS?
17:57.16kerio/dev/dsp
17:57.22DocScrutinizer05this is a waaay too ambiguous acronym
17:57.29DocScrutinizer05aah yes, it does
17:57.57kerioDocScrutinizer05: how do i diagnose the maemo sip cleint
17:57.58kerioclient
17:58.00DocScrutinizer05it even started with that only
17:58.42DocScrutinizer05kerio: (maemo client) sorry NFC, it's telepathy-sofiasip
17:59.00DocScrutinizer05maybe you find details googling for that term
18:00.14DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy_(software) >>Rakia: for the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP), using Nokia's open source Sofia-SIP library<<
18:02.13kerioi mean it should work
18:02.15keriobut it doesn't D:
18:02.33DocScrutinizer05wireshark to the rescue :-)
18:02.52DocScrutinizer05it has grat dissectors for SIP/RTP
18:02.57DocScrutinizer05great*
18:03.13keriocan i just tcpdump
18:03.15kerioor do i have to use tshark
18:03.31DocScrutinizer05see wirehsarl manual
18:03.53DocScrutinizer05I think wireshark also can read in zxpdump logs
18:04.02DocScrutinizer05tcpdump
18:04.13DocScrutinizer05but tshark is prolly simpler to use
18:04.36DocScrutinizer05and there's tshark for maemo
18:04.59DocScrutinizer05you can connect to it via your desktop PC wireshark GUI frontend remotely
18:05.26kerionah i'm using tshark on the other end of the vpn
18:05.31kerioshould work regardless
18:05.42DocScrutinizer05make sure tshark filters out and thus doesn't report own traffic
18:07.23DocScrutinizer05the funny old "forkbomb" effect when running tcpdump via ssh remote login X-P
18:07.50DocScrutinizer05tcpdump logging own logging (*5)
18:08.16keriois this thing even working
18:08.22keriothis thing = vpn
18:09.48*** join/#maemo xy2_ (~xy2_@11.245.16.93.rev.sfr.net)
18:10.31kerioDocScrutinizer05: btw the SIP thing worked immediately on iOS
18:10.33keriojust sayin
18:10.34DocScrutinizer05WTF?! my ssh login to N900 had a 15s freeze lag
18:11.01keriousedns no
18:12.24DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ps -l 7192
18:12.26DocScrutinizer05F S   UID   PID  PPID  C PRI  NI ADDR SZ WCHAN  TTY        TIME CMD
18:12.27DocScrutinizer050 S 29999  7192     1  0  80   0 -  1884 sys_po ?          0:06 /usr/lib/telepathy/telepathy-sofiasip
18:12.51keriohonestly i just gave up
18:14.27DocScrutinizer05connecting N900 to arbitrary standard SIP registrars is "just do it"
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18:15.47DocScrutinizer05plus you even could run asterisk on N900 locally and connect to that :-P
18:16.23DocScrutinizer05which makes for a nice and simple migration path to Neo900's modem
18:26.09kerioDocScrutinizer05: except that it doesnt fucking work
18:26.15keriobecause of some weird incompatibility with VPNs
18:27.37keriobuiltin android client
18:27.39kerioworks
18:27.41kerio10/10
18:31.16*** join/#maemo KotCzarny (ariel@31.135.195.151)
18:34.00kerioDocScrutinizer05: are you saying that running asterisk locally is going to be the simplest way to do phone calls on the neo900
18:37.07kerioanyway this SIP thing is nitfy
18:37.09kerionifty
18:37.19kerioi'll investigate running a local asterisk
18:37.39kerioto not require the whole openvpn shebang
18:44.50DocScrutinizer05kerio: I say that running asterisk locally is the simplest way to *implement* phonecalls in *maemo* Neo900
18:46.37DocScrutinizer05as long as you want to do them calls via the maemo dialler-ui
18:47.09DocScrutinizer05otherwise use an arbitrary dialer, there's a shitload of them
18:47.11Wizzuphttps://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644
18:50.37DocScrutinizer05those generic dialers however won't integrate with contacts, call-log, notifications, vibra, audio management, 911-features, holdbutton functionality on headsets, younameit
18:51.59DocScrutinizer05recaller, mediaplayer pause on call, screenblanker and proximity sensor, ...
19:00.21DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: ROTFL
19:00.53DocScrutinizer05>>maybe handover dev of this toy to someone with unix experience<< FULL ACK
19:01.04DocScrutinizer05or just nuke the whole pile of shit
19:10.47KotCzarnyOh, cool, systemd is on github apparently. Now, I don't have to go to twitter to troll you guys
19:10.49KotCzarny;)
19:11.41KotCzarnyhttps://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5740
19:11.46KotCzarnythis one is nice too
19:12.04kerioto the reddit
19:29.15DocScrutinizer05>>It certainly doesn't help it isn't defined anywhere what path_is_safe means and for what it is "safe". << https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/5655 -- pathetic and embarrassing
19:32.26DocScrutinizer05~nosystemd
19:32.26infoboti heard nosystemd is https://devuan.org http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/
19:39.23xy2_wtf https://github.com/vshatskyi/black-screen
19:40.54KotCzarnywell, if you have space cpu power, why not, otherwise: meh
19:41.44keriothat's what my desktop was lacking
19:41.49keriomore javascript in my terminal emulator
19:42.15KotCzarnymmm, sploits that sploit you while you are sploiting?
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21:48.45DocScrutinizer05apropos twinkle: funny what stuff I wrote a nearly 10 years ago  http://paste.ubuntu.com/24396559
21:49.43DocScrutinizer05prolly even older since that file is already migrated from a yet older box/system
21:50.45DocScrutinizer05meanwhile both bash and I learned how to do such multithreaded stuff a tad smarter
21:52.39DocScrutinizer05and SIP registrars learned to not listen to the IP announced in SIP messages and rather use STUN/ICE and server assisted SIP to establish a call even to clients behind NAT
21:54.21DocScrutinizer05and nobody really does direct IP2IP VoIP (without registrar) anymore
21:55.45DocScrutinizer05if anybody except me ever did
21:56.50kerioDocScrutinizer05: yeah because SIP is a shit protocol
21:57.19DocScrutinizer05not really. Just complex
21:57.56DocScrutinizer05and not made from beginning with stuff like roaming and all sorts of nasty NATs in mind
22:00.26DocScrutinizer05SMTP is a real shit protocol ;-D
22:03.04kerioat least SMTP uses one connection :<
22:06.06*** join/#maemo l_bratch (~l_bratch@serenity.bratch.co.uk)
22:11.19DocScrutinizer05ftp doesn't
22:11.56DocScrutinizer05but yeah, multiple ports are actually a nightmare. at least in SIP you can fix the ports to use
22:12.28*** join/#maemo luke-jr (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr)
22:12.31DocScrutinizer05for ftp you have *lots* of fun with NATs
22:13.16DocScrutinizer05also for IRC DCC btw
22:13.34DocScrutinizer05which is in many aspects similar to SIP VoIP
22:15.10*** join/#maemo Smily (~SmilzOrg@ip5f5bd58b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
22:17.53DocScrutinizer05A initiating a ftp file transfer from B to C is very similar to SIP A connecting B and C in a call, by A either forwarding a inbound call or steeping out of a 3way-conference
22:21.38DocScrutinizer05the problem always is NATs don't open receive ports, that's why they are considered a good safeguard against active attacks from 'outside' but that implies they also are a problem for stuff like ftp or SIP
22:22.31DocScrutinizer05VPN is just a glorified distributed NAT
22:23.24DocScrutinizer05so you have exactly same issues like with any other (local) NAT
22:24.01*** join/#maemo Alexxxlrus (~Alexxxlru@5.167.144.13)
22:38.34Enrico_MenottiHello guys, hope you had a nice Easter day.
22:38.58Enrico_MenottiI'm trying to learn the last couple of things from Debian before switching to Devuan.
22:40.06Enrico_MenottiNow I have a strange issue about key mapping. I have been able to map some symbols to the fourth level. But with my surprise, the fourth level is not working for the keys a, z and x. And just for them - the rest is working.
22:40.12Enrico_MenottiAnybody know about a similar issue?
22:40.54DocScrutinizer05no
22:42.25DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard
22:49.03*** join/#maemo Vajb (~Vajb@26.85-253-62.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk)
22:49.09Enrico_MenottiI read it (without thinking too much about the details...). If I got it, Sh-Fn-x and Sh-Fn-z produce the same hardware event. So it is not possible to map them to different symbols. Is this right?
22:56.02DocScrutinizer05sorry, I just closed it so can't tell if z/x is right. The rest is correct
22:58.10DocScrutinizer05note that this stuff is merely deduced from schematics, I didn't verify against device behavior when I wrote it
22:59.19DocScrutinizer05anyway this is generally one of the reasons to use "sticky qualifier keys", like shift-down shift up a-down a-up -> uppercase-A
23:01.39DocScrutinizer05this works in maemo for shift and blue, not though for ctrl. And I think it doesn't work in the generic debian kbd driver either
23:07.00DocScrutinizer05the canonical pattern is (not found in maemo): press qualifier once: sticky for next keypress (like explained above). Press qualifier twice: lock (like capslock for pressing shift twice). With lock engaged any further press of the qualifier key will unlock and not create sticky state
23:08.40DocScrutinizer05so for repeated pressing a qualifier, the sequence is sticky -> locked -> off -> sticky -> locked -> off ->...
23:09.52DocScrutinizer05ooh sorry, maemo DOES that too
23:11.03DocScrutinizer05it kist lacks to show recent state, though that had been very very easy via indicator LED
23:11.09DocScrutinizer05just*
23:16.46Enrico_MenottiOk, thank you, got it. Would be interesting to enable these sticky qualifier keys in Debian as well. But it's not necessary, so I won't investigate further.
23:17.50DocScrutinizer05I *think* maemo does it on X11 level
23:18.06DocScrutinizer05not sure though
23:18.25DocScrutinizer05could as well be kernel level
23:19.36DocScrutinizer05pr anything intermediate. keybpard service layering is a mystery to me. I have studied it from bottom to top a dozen times already and each single time I forgot about bottom details when I reached top
23:19.45DocScrutinizer05or*
23:21.17Enrico_Menotti:)
23:25.06DocScrutinizer05hmm, maybe useful (for me and my problem): https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/116629/how-do-keyboard-input-and-text-output-work
23:28.39DocScrutinizer05>>The device file transmits key up/down events with a scan code, which may or may not be identical to the value transmitted by the hardware (the kernel may translate the scan code from a keyboard-dependent value to a common value, and Linux doesn't retransmit the scan codes that it doesn't know).<<
23:29.57*** join/#maemo jon_y (~enforcer@2001:e68:4075:c56f:f64d:30ff:fe63:5a5a)
23:31.05DocScrutinizer05now it gets funny only with >>There are two mechanisms to configure the mapping from keycodes to keysyms:<<
23:39.20DocScrutinizer05there's also http://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes-8.html#kccb2 and http://compsoc.man.ac.uk/~shep/pedals.html which I bookmarked for a particular reason. The latter might be interesting for you too
23:53.01DocScrutinizer05evtest is rather great

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