| 00:28.46 | *** join/#maemo infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:28.46 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~lf ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
| 00:48.24 | *** join/#maemo ashneo76 (~ashneo76@204.14.154.168) |
| 00:58.14 | *** join/#maemo sunshavi (~user@190.232.110.239) |
| 02:25.05 | *** join/#maemo N-Mi (~nicolas@calvix/staff/N-Mi) |
| 03:09.08 | *** join/#maemo Oksanaa (~Wikiwide@Maemo/community/ex-council/Wikiwide) |
| 03:30.27 | *** join/#maemo vahe (~vahe@130.193.124.163) |
| 03:32.40 | *** join/#maemo povbot (~supybot@office.pov.lt) |
| 03:40.17 | *** join/#maemo Maxdaman1us (~Maxdamant@unaffiliated/maxdamantus) |
| 03:53.28 | *** part/#maemo Oksanaa (~Wikiwide@Maemo/community/ex-council/Wikiwide) |
| 04:04.43 | *** join/#maemo DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 04:37.49 | Zungo | is there something like f.lux for maemo? |
| 04:38.17 | Zungo | color changing for eyes improvement mainly |
| 04:38.24 | Zungo | but it can be for any purpose actually |
| 04:48.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | hm? what's this f.lux thing? |
| 04:48.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | "color changing for eyes improvement" o.O ??? |
| 04:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah, display color temperature automatic changing |
| 04:51.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, N900 has automatic display brightness by ALS. I don't know of a way to adjust the color temperature |
| 04:55.41 | KotCzarny | as far battery monitors on n900 go, i like battery-eye |
| 04:56.05 | KotCzarny | it's not affecting battery usage (ie. sampling only when something happens anyway (lock/unlock etc) |
| 04:56.25 | KotCzarny | yet, providing quite descriptive history what happens |
| 05:03.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tell dreamer about lazyflashing |
| 05:03.48 | *** join/#maemo sfa (~sfa@108-89-35-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:05.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | dreamer: start there, install the repo mirrors as recommended, then proceed with installing CSSU as explained on CSSU wiikipage. Should not result in any problems |
| 05:05.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | do NOT install any stiff before you completed installing CSSU, it will complicate things |
| 05:05.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | stuff even |
| 05:06.26 | Zungo | interesting |
| 05:06.35 | Zungo | Oh well |
| 05:06.39 | Zungo | i dont even have a n900 |
| 05:06.41 | Zungo | yet |
| 05:06.53 | KotCzarny | why did you plan to get it? |
| 05:07.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | that explains why you're asking that question ;-) No N900 user ever asked it afaik |
| 05:10.42 | KotCzarny | Zungo: you know n900 is not a phone for everyone, what makes you plan to get it? |
| 05:10.58 | Zungo | i like to experiment |
| 05:11.04 | Zungo | i believe i might be "qualified" |
| 05:11.07 | Zungo | im a nerd |
| 05:11.14 | KotCzarny | do you know linux well? |
| 05:11.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | oksana has el-v1,de of 46MB?!?? :-o everything larger maybe 2MB is considered a killer for RAM |
| 05:11.39 | Zungo | enough to able to maneuver myself in it |
| 05:11.42 | KotCzarny | with all it quirks and having to do manual work in terminal? |
| 05:11.45 | Zungo | Oh well |
| 05:11.56 | Zungo | Sure, it overwhelms me but i can do it |
| 05:12.04 | KotCzarny | then yeah, you are qualified |
| 05:12.15 | Zungo | i learn fast |
| 05:12.18 | Zungo | and i do tech support |
| 05:12.20 | Zungo | :p |
| 05:12.21 | KotCzarny | but dont expect any browsing of the internet on it |
| 05:12.30 | Zungo | no problem |
| 05:12.34 | Zungo | i know microb sucks already |
| 05:12.40 | KotCzarny | otoh it could act well as a portable linux machine |
| 05:12.49 | KotCzarny | with many of useful tools |
| 05:13.01 | KotCzarny | nah, microb is ok, it's the internet that got bloated to hell |
| 05:13.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | Zungo: then first and most important thing you need to learn: maemo is not debian (though technically close). There are a few things you should NOT consider doing, like apt-get upgrade etc |
| 05:13.27 | KotCzarny | where having 2GB of ram might not be enough ;) not to say 256MB |
| 05:14.22 | Zungo | and yeah, some people are a bit compulsory with their data |
| 05:14.47 | Zungo | no problem, i used to use crap computers |
| 05:15.52 | KotCzarny | you might want to prepare list of tools/apps you expect to use and check if they are available, or their substitutes |
| 05:17.47 | Zungo | i actually plan to use a n900 as playground |
| 05:17.49 | Vajb | Enrico_Menotti: You asked about not being able to make symlinks. Also i read that you recently reformatted your sd card. Is it by any chance formatted to fat? Because if it is, that is your problem. Fat doesn't support symlinks. |
| 05:18.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools |
| 05:18.58 | infobot | [jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
| 05:19.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | Zungo: ^^^ |
| 05:42.12 | *** join/#maemo arcean (~arcean@131.228.32.166) |
| 05:55.32 | *** join/#maemo preflex (~sailfish@2607:fb90:b19:af1f:a603:60e1:bd80:72b3) |
| 06:01.26 | *** join/#maemo zGrr (~quassel@188.146.79.91.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) |
| 06:07.44 | *** join/#maemo Kabouik (~kabouik@129.242.224.28) |
| 06:20.13 | *** join/#maemo freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 06:20.48 | *** join/#maemo freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 06:26.54 | *** join/#maemo dmth|intevation (~dmth|inte@2001:470:747a:2a:6af7:28ff:fe64:1ded) |
| 06:47.28 | *** join/#maemo Kabouik (~kabouik@129.242.224.28) |
| 06:49.33 | *** join/#maemo zGrrr (~quassel@user-94-254-130-102.play-internet.pl) |
| 07:02.35 | *** join/#maemo florian (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 07:06.09 | *** join/#maemo zGrr (~quassel@user-94-254-130-102.play-internet.pl) |
| 07:19.20 | *** join/#maemo geaaru (~geaaru@host170-152-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it) |
| 07:27.15 | *** join/#maemo merlin1991 (~merlin@Maemo/community/cssu/merlin1991) |
| 07:47.37 | *** join/#maemo Kabouik (~kabouik@129.242.224.28) |
| 08:01.33 | dreamer | DocScrutinizer05: hey, so I pinpointed my issue to placing my backups and the applist in that backup. this added the thumb repo and packages in the package manager. I now disabled the thumb repo and now it doesn't want to upgrade to these packages any more |
| 08:01.57 | KotCzarny | fun |
| 08:02.18 | KotCzarny | what backup method did you use? |
| 08:02.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | dreamer: yeah, the "backup" is basically just a list of apps to install from repos |
| 08:02.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | incl the repo definition |
| 08:02.39 | dreamer | uhuh |
| 08:02.55 | dreamer | which I didn't realize at all. that this would pull the thumb stuff :P |
| 08:03.13 | dreamer | (I really only cared about the contacts and maybe some settings) |
| 08:03.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | it adds thumb repo if you backed up one app from thumb |
| 08:03.42 | dreamer | yup. I disabled the repo now and now the thumb stuff isn't in the way any more |
| 08:03.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can deselect all apps during restore |
| 08:04.20 | dreamer | I'm already past that eh :P |
| 08:04.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | great |
| 08:04.36 | dreamer | doesn't want to start over _again_ - have the n900 set up mostly as I want atm :) |
| 08:04.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | thimb is tricky, very tricky |
| 08:04.55 | dreamer | yeah I'm going to leave the thumb stuff. I don't run that many applications at once usually |
| 08:05.01 | KotCzarny | if you used backupmenu, they should add a warning at least during restore |
| 08:05.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it needs kernel patch or will segfault like mad |
| 08:05.04 | dreamer | so I don't think swapping should be an issue |
| 08:06.11 | KotCzarny | ie. detect if restoring to stock or cssu while backup was on cssu-thumb (or any other combination) |
| 08:07.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas there's no simple way to reliably tell a binary is thumb or not, so... |
| 08:07.25 | KotCzarny | not binary, backup |
| 08:07.40 | KotCzarny | when backup its done, current cssu level could be stored too |
| 08:08.21 | KotCzarny | and requesting to update to specific cssu before attempting restore |
| 08:08.36 | KotCzarny | (or even better, install that cssu without user intervention) |
| 08:08.49 | KotCzarny | maybe with asking if to do it |
| 08:11.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | not even backupmenu does save the patched kernel (though we discussed how to add that), anyway while backupmenu unlike default backup saves complete rootfs (and opt) there's no info in that that could be used to reliably tell it's a thumb system |
| 08:13.32 | KotCzarny | while i hate systemd and all its abominations, maybe we could employ /etc/os-release |
| 08:13.46 | KotCzarny | and store few bits of info there |
| 08:14.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I'd not go for thumb initially, rather reflash a plain system, then add repo mirrors, then install CSSU. Then restore your backup (NOT backupmenu!), only then ponder if you might want to go powerkernel (might eventually come with CSSU) and even thumb apps |
| 08:14.24 | KotCzarny | he flashed stock, then install cssu-stable |
| 08:14.37 | KotCzarny | he got into troubles because his backup was from thumb |
| 08:14.56 | KotCzarny | hence weird repos/cssu combination |
| 08:15.38 | *** join/#maemo jskarvad (jskarvad@nat/redhat/x-xqqrbfjrpfwzsyoj) |
| 08:15.38 | *** join/#maemo jskarvad (jskarvad@redhat/jskarvad) |
| 08:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((dreamer doesn't want to start over _again_)) well, it's a matter of like one cmdline on PC and 5 clicks to install mirrors and CSSU, and let it do its thing which takes like 20 min or so |
| 08:18.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course restoring from backupmenu is even way easier... if you never used thumb so no thumb binaries in your BM.backups |
| 08:18.40 | dreamer | DocScrutinizer05: no but I also did a lot of config. installed some applications. typed over some missing contacts. etc. |
| 08:18.49 | dreamer | easily more than 20 mins |
| 08:19.40 | dreamer | KotCzarny: I thought there was effort to move maemo to devuan base ;) |
| 08:19.43 | dreamer | (@ systemd) |
| 08:19.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | what? |
| 08:20.09 | KotCzarny | nah, ignore that part, i just want os-release file |
| 08:20.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo *is* devuan base |
| 08:20.16 | dreamer | debian* |
| 08:20.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, debian *was* maemo's base, at times where debian wasn't systemd infested |
| 08:21.16 | dreamer | DocScrutinizer05: current installations for n900 are not devuan based are they? |
| 08:21.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are, since devuan is debian classic |
| 08:21.48 | dreamer | mwah. not exactly |
| 08:22.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | the whole reason for devuan in maemo is: we can't base on debian anymore because of systemd |
| 08:22.14 | dreamer | uhuh |
| 08:23.45 | dreamer | parazyd told me yesterday that basic gsm functionality is there atm. sending sms and stuff |
| 08:23.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | devuan and debian are pretty much identical |
| 08:25.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and maemo is based on old debian, and then installed a lot of own stuff on top, and patched a few genuinely debian packages, It also had Nokia patches in kernel |
| 08:25.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | but honeslty define what's a linux distro |
| 08:27.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | "rebasing Y on upstream X" only means you're applying all the patches and build&install all the apps which are special to Y on top of X |
| 08:27.39 | dreamer | sure, sure. but it's not like I'm running devuan on my n900 atbm |
| 08:27.40 | dreamer | atm( |
| 08:27.48 | dreamer | it's still the original debian base |
| 08:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, and neither you will do that when maemo got rebased on devuan |
| 08:28.06 | dreamer | and afaik not all of maemo works yet |
| 08:28.12 | dreamer | why not? |
| 08:28.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | because it's still maemo then |
| 08:28.33 | dreamer | bla :P |
| 08:28.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and basically nothing changed |
| 08:28.55 | dreamer | except newer kernel and package versions |
| 08:29.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | rebasing does NOT replace or add apps or middleware. It simply updates a system based on patches from the upstream it's rebased on |
| 08:30.13 | dreamer | I never said that |
| 08:30.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what makes you think maemo would change in any way (systemd!) when rebasing it on devuan? |
| 08:30.57 | dreamer | where did I say that? |
| 08:31.05 | dreamer | you and your assumptions |
| 08:31.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't assume anything. If you think so, you got me wrong |
| 08:31.53 | dreamer | so, we're both thinking wrong then :) |
| 08:32.02 | dreamer | anyway. I have an n900 again. and happy about it |
| 08:32.10 | dreamer | (still no clue where the other one got missing ..) |
| 08:32.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>basic gsm functionality is there<< only means the maemo specific stuff works on new kernel and environment |
| 08:34.04 | *** join/#maemo N-Mi (~nicolas@adsl.n-mi.com) |
| 08:34.04 | *** join/#maemo N-Mi (~nicolas@calvix/staff/N-Mi) |
| 08:34.56 | KotCzarny | hmm, there is some spam in bugzilla |
| 08:35.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | devuan=="the original debian base", much more than debian is, nowadays |
| 08:35.14 | KotCzarny | (bugs.maemo.org), who has admin rights there? |
| 08:36.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | re devuan: |
| 08:36.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~amprolla |
| 08:36.28 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 08:37.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically devuan is just an overlay to debian, just like CSSU is to maemo |
| 08:38.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither of both is a complete own distinct distro |
| 08:38.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | both just patch their base distro |
| 08:49.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | where's pali when you need him? |
| 09:32.33 | *** join/#maemo auenf (David@121.212.72.188) |
| 09:41.38 | *** join/#maemo Smily (~SmilzOrg@ip5f5bd58b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 09:46.06 | *** join/#maemo LauRoman (~LauRoman@5-14-54-134.residential.rdsnet.ro) |
| 10:06.07 | *** join/#maemo Wizzup (~Wizzup@a82-161-36-93.adsl.xs4all.nl) |
| 10:10.56 | *** join/#maemo platicus (~matrixirc@fanzine.igalia.com) |
| 10:10.59 | *** join/#maemo tanty (~agomeziga@fanzine.igalia.com) |
| 10:45.02 | *** join/#maemo L29Ah (~L29Ah@cl-154.led-01.ru.sixxs.net) |
| 11:01.27 | *** join/#maemo florian_ (~fuchs@p5DE3CA1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:45.58 | NotKit | Devuan for N900 is just base system so far, without UI? |
| 11:52.44 | *** join/#maemo auenf (David@121.212.72.188) |
| 11:54.30 | Zungo | yes |
| 11:54.34 | Zungo | hildon |
| 11:54.39 | Zungo | uhm |
| 11:54.46 | Zungo | ui is coming |
| 11:54.48 | Zungo | together |
| 11:54.53 | Zungo | along with base components actually |
| 12:28.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | then what of it is devuan? |
| 12:29.27 | Zungo | devuan with maemo? |
| 12:29.45 | Zungo | nevermind |
| 12:29.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | arch with linux |
| 12:30.06 | Zungo | im sleepy |
| 12:30.17 | Zungo | currently |
| 12:31.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd consider a sysrem with hildon a maemo system, pretty much |
| 12:33.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | but then, in the end whenever you customize your system by installing your personal selection of apps and even maybe core system components, it's probably pretty much *your* unique system, and often it's hard to tell which known distro it's more like |
| 12:33.10 | KotCzarny | system with hildon is a system with hildon, maemo i lots of services integrated together, not just ui |
| 12:36.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | with power kernel and free BME you could call it a Pali system. Or call it RobbieThe1st system because of awesome backupmenu, Or call it Ubuntu because it has upstart? |
| 12:37.57 | KotCzarny | debian going from gtk2 to gtk3 didnt change the name, so while some components change, since its under the same development team (maemo community in general) |
| 12:38.17 | KotCzarny | it's what the community produces |
| 12:39.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's prolly... maemo |
| 12:40.50 | KotCzarny | if you buy a fake that 'looks like', only to discover later it's not the same thing, you stop calling it 'duck' |
| 12:41.07 | KotCzarny | btw. some distros include hildon i think |
| 12:41.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | devuan for N900 would clearly be with another windows manager than hildon |
| 12:41.22 | KotCzarny | and it would be hard to name them 'maemo' |
| 12:47.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | "yeah, it has KDE instead of gnome, and it has systemd instead of upstart, and it has zypper instead apt, but the rest is clearly Ubuntu, Oh the rest is identical to Suse as well since no difference for the rest between suse and ubuntu? doesn't matter!" |
| 12:48.00 | *** join/#maemo tm (~sinnlos@51.255.202.137) |
| 12:51.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | but but,,, I rebased it on Ubuntu, so it's called Ubuntu!! |
| 12:51.29 | KotCzarny | see also the maintainership part |
| 12:51.50 | KotCzarny | nokia changed a lot from diablo to fremantle, yet, its still maemo |
| 12:58.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | having your VW getting serviced in a Mercedes workshop for years doesn't turn it into a Mercedes. |
| 12:59.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, at least not completely, it will still look like and get called a VW, even while a few details might remind you at Mercedes quality |
| 13:02.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and as I explained already, Devuan isn't even a true unique distro, it's a overlay over debian, fetching 99% of packages right from debian mirrors |
| 13:02.58 | KotCzarny | nor was maemo. |
| 13:07.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | so a devuan for N900 would look like the long existing debian for N900, which was just a chroot installing a few libs and remarkably first of all a different desktop than hildon. Also maemo always had its own repos and debian had its own repos, while devuan won't have repos for maemo, or if they ever have those, they will be called maemo repo and will not work like the rest of devuan, I.E. won't fetch most of their packages from debian |
| 13:07.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | servers |
| 13:09.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~amprolly |
| 13:09.03 | KotCzarny | armbian is similar 'overlay on debian' distro. they have own image builder and few bits not existing on debian. |
| 13:09.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~amprolla |
| 13:09.04 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 13:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | to say it once more: Devuan is a meta distro (overlay) just like CSSU, and Devuan is basically debian just like CSSU is basically maemo. And rebasing maemo on debian has been done a few times already, partially, and never anybody called that "Debian for N900" then |
| 13:18.04 | *** join/#maemo Oksanaa (~Wikiwide@Maemo/community/ex-council/Wikiwide) |
| 13:26.26 | *** join/#maemo Linkandzelda (~Linkandze@bitlbounce.cypher.li) |
| 13:26.26 | *** join/#maemo Linkandzelda (~Linkandze@unaffiliated/linkandzelda) |
| 13:32.35 | *** join/#maemo Linkandzelda (~Linkandze@bitlbounce.cypher.li) |
| 13:32.35 | *** join/#maemo Linkandzelda (~Linkandze@unaffiliated/linkandzelda) |
| 13:56.35 | *** part/#maemo Oksanaa (~Wikiwide@Maemo/community/ex-council/Wikiwide) |
| 14:05.15 | *** join/#maemo fuz_ (nobody@vau75-10-88-164-23-88.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:17.35 | *** join/#maemo geaaru (~geaaru@host170-152-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it) |
| 14:28.32 | *** join/#maemo eMHa (~mh@p200300738E31DD00267703FFFE6CC360.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:33.17 | DocScrutinizer51 | oooh, any devuan for N900 will most certainly be armhf, while maemo stays armel |
| 14:40.24 | Wizzup | DocScrutinizer51: is debian with kde on it not debian? |
| 14:43.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | err what a strange queastion |
| 14:45.14 | Wizzup | I don't see how it matters what we call it |
| 14:46.56 | DocScrutinizer51 | debian is a website and a project, a system installing from that website is probably always or never debian. Though you could turn yje system even lrss debian by e.g. removing apt and using a RPPM nased package manager |
| 14:48.05 | Wizzup | So I am not running devuan? |
| 14:48.06 | Wizzup | er |
| 14:48.07 | Wizzup | debian |
| 14:48.17 | Wizzup | it's a senseless discussion |
| 14:48.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | indeed |
| 14:49.13 | DocScrutinizer51 | see anove note about repo names and arch (el/hf) |
| 14:49.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | also seems it's a monologue rather than discussion |
| 14:55.26 | Wizzup | you can run armel on armhf kernels, so it's just a matter of having the binaries for the closed source packages that cannot be armhf |
| 14:55.33 | Wizzup | the libraries* |
| 15:08.45 | NotKit | it's also possible to have armel chroot |
| 15:09.21 | NotKit | I could start most of example apps from Scratchbox target with native hildon-desktop, but maemo-launcher should be also started from inside chroot then... |
| 15:15.57 | *** join/#maemo sparetire (~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire) |
| 15:17.15 | *** join/#maemo sunshavi (~user@190.232.110.239) |
| 15:28.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway seems we agreed upon a name for the devuan ci resources already, and I think it contained 'maemo' in it |
| 15:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | NotKit: yes, sure, but that's exactly that then: a maemo fremantle chroot inside a debian system. And I doubt all the middlleware will be simple to run from a chroot, it's sometimes quite system low level stuff, particularly when it comes to cgroups which are vital part of maemo actually performing as realtime phone system |
| 15:31.59 | NotKit | well, is this all needed for just running legacy apps? |
| 15:33.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | which 'legacy apps' do you want to dismiss? phoneui aka dialer? mediaplayer incl mafw? the whole pulseaudio shit we need to keep when we want decent phone audio? |
| 15:33.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | camera? |
| 15:34.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | botifications? |
| 15:34.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | notifications even |
| 15:35.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think it's trivial to have dialer running in a chroot and then make it signal 'missed call' to the notifier daemon outside the chroot, via dbus |
| 15:36.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't blame you for the question though, it's not obvious from outside how interdependent maemo is inside |
| 15:37.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | thosw who know about that interdependencies already pondered chroots and whatnot. getting stuff running on a devuan based system tailored to mimic maemo environment is the result from that |
| 15:43.29 | freemangordon | hi! |
| 15:44.06 | KotCzarny | fmg, hi! |
| 15:47.16 | *** join/#maemo tryagain (~quassel@46.172.18.160) |
| 15:50.47 | *** join/#maemo drrz (~drrrrz@162.216.46.60) |
| 16:02.58 | *** join/#maemo vahe (~vahe@130.193.124.163) |
| 16:10.45 | *** join/#maemo sunshavi (~user@190.232.110.19) |
| 16:12.45 | NotKit | DocScrutinizer05, did you talk about N900 or other possible devices? |
| 16:16.12 | *** join/#maemo Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 16:45.47 | *** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@x4e34e8d3.dyn.telefonica.de) |
| 17:31.56 | Enrico_Menotti | Hello. I was having some issues related to installing packages on the N900 and I decided to reflash it. It works, but I have a couple of strange things. First: I flashed the eMMC without the reboot option; after that, I tried immediately with the FIASCO image. Didn't work - the device rebooted by itself and showed a messy screen. So I put the device back to flash mode (disconnected usb and connected by holding u) and |
| 17:31.57 | Enrico_Menotti | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:33.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | NotKit: I was talking about maemo |
| 17:34.31 | Enrico_Menotti | Second thing: if I connect the device, powered off, to a computer via USB, it performs a "half boot" and goes to charge mode. I think this is correct. If I press the power button without disconnecting, it boots to the NOKIA screen and then boots again, this time up to the desktop. Is this also normal? |
| 17:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a delusion to hope for any other phone enabled device performing OK with an OOTB linux basically made for desktop PCs and servers, from kernel to audio to to windows manager |
| 17:36.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo as well as andrid have both a LOT of tweaks to make the device run smooth under realtime requirements of phone usecase |
| 17:36.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | android* |
| 17:37.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | a few other projects target the GUI/UX but never really care about the middleware and performance issues |
| 17:38.37 | *** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@x4e34e8d3.dyn.telefonica.de) |
| 17:41.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | on a 8GB RAM octocore tablet that's maybe no big concern (you get other issues there with poorly or not at all supported hardware), but those cheesy devices we deal with right now, and particularly N900 need careful tuning of process priorities and whatnot else to allow ringtone and call accepting response in less than a second, with decent audio and responsibe GUI |
| 17:41.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | reponsive* |
| 17:41.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh! |
| 17:42.35 | Enrico_Menotti | Third and last thing: after boot, the desktop issues a message saying that the memory card has an unsupported format. I suppose it is referring to the SD card (if I take it out physically and boot, the message does not appear). The latter is formatted as ext3. From terminal, I am able to mount it, however. Why this? |
| 17:42.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tell Enrico_Menotti about lazyflashing |
| 17:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((performs a "half boot" and goes to charge mode. I think this is correct)) this is a full boot aka ACT_DEAD and it actually is correct |
| 17:43.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, all normal |
| 17:44.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((why this)) short answer: you didn't install CSSU |
| 17:46.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | long answer: oroginal stock maemo didn't know how to handle ext3 uSD. Which doesn't mean the linux underneath can't mount and zse it, just the middleware doesn't expect anything other than vgat. fixed in CSSU |
| 17:47.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/use/use/ |
| 17:47.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/vgat/vfat/ |
| 17:48.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~botsnack |
| 17:48.16 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: aw, gee |
| 17:49.20 | Enrico_Menotti | Ah ok. So all symptoms are normal. I just wanted to be sure the flashing went on correctly. Thank you. |
| 17:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it prolly didn't when you had an unsolicited reboot in between |
| 17:50.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | use lazyflashing, works like a charm |
| 17:50.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's real fun |
| 17:50.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas linux PC only |
| 17:51.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | should add a desktop icon to click for lazyflashing ;-P |
| 17:52.03 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok, but do you think I really need to flash again? If the present behaviour is normal, I'd expect the device is ok. |
| 17:52.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly, but nearly impossible to make absolutely sure |
| 17:52.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | it runs |
| 17:52.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~optification |
| 17:52.37 | infobot | optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3" |
| 17:53.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | on first boot, and that, when aborted, may render just one or a few cli commands borked |
| 17:53.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and eat your space on rootfs with the rest that's not yet got processed during optification |
| 17:55.30 | Enrico_Menotti | Ah. So I made the wrong thing in stopping the first boot at the running dots, if I understood. Right? |
| 17:55.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | right |
| 17:56.12 | Enrico_Menotti | Isn't there a way to start optification again? |
| 17:56.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | lazyflashing takes maybe 10 minutes the first time, 2min for all further times |
| 17:57.08 | Enrico_Menotti | To learn or to boot? |
| 17:57.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't need to learn anything. It's really truly foolproof if you ever touched a terminal on linux |
| 17:58.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | comes with just.in.time onscreen instructions |
| 17:59.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | you literally just copy&paste that one commandline into your terminal and follow the instructions showing up |
| 17:59.54 | Enrico_Menotti | So I should flash again, both eMMC and kernel, possibly with the lazy flashing, and at first boot wait maybe 10 minutes, right? |
| 18:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | right, but the lazyflashing tool tells you details |
| 18:03.08 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok, thank you. |
| 18:04.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) let me know if lazyflashing was flawless for you or anything needs inprovement |
| 18:11.09 | Wizzup | 19:33 < DocScrutinizer05> NotKit: I was talking about maemo |
| 18:11.15 | Wizzup | 17:33 < DocScrutinizer05> which 'legacy apps' do you want to dismiss? phoneui aka dialer? mediaplayer incl mafw? the whole pulseaudio shit we |
| 18:11.18 | Wizzup | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:11.25 | Wizzup | I am not sure if the PA stuff is needed for anything other than n900 |
| 18:11.40 | Wizzup | Many of the others can likely be replaced at some point |
| 18:11.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | we were talking about "Devuan fpr N900" however |
| 18:12.05 | Wizzup | but you said "maemo" |
| 18:12.39 | Wizzup | why can't we just call it "hildon-desktop on devuan with as much nice things from maemo as possible" |
| 18:12.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, obviously you can't use dialer with any other than N900 modem, as a lot of other hw-related stuff |
| 18:13.09 | Wizzup | I would expect a dialer app to be mostly agnostic to the actual modem, e.g. ofono probably abstracts most of it? |
| 18:13.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | because that's a TERRIBLE and completely needless complication to call it that way |
| 18:13.38 | Wizzup | Well, it seems to clear up the perceived purpose |
| 18:13.44 | Wizzup | it seems to come up every time :) |
| 18:14.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry that's as braindamaged as calling mint "debian based distrro with a new Theme and other fnacy little stuff" |
| 18:15.35 | *** join/#maemo dmth|intevation (~dmth|inte@nat-guest.intevation.de) |
| 18:16.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway afaik the issue is already decided upon, since the name of any CI/repo on devuan has been discussed and agreed upon a name containing 'maemo', for a number of sound reasons |
| 18:19.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, >>hildon-desktop on devuan with as much nice things from maemo as possible<< also contains "maemo" but I guess it's just a very clumsy URL |
| 18:20.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you also ignore that maemo has upstart, devuan sysv-init right now |
| 18:21.04 | Wizzup | Well, I think that a decent desktop kit should not depend on a specific init system. But I have yet to find out how much depends on upstart. |
| 18:21.18 | Wizzup | bbl. |
| 18:21.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you port (and maintain) maemo's special version of upstart to all devuan arch, jaromil won't feel happy with calling it Devuan-whatever |
| 18:22.38 | Wizzup | Or just not use upstart... |
| 18:22.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course you're free to port hildon to Devuan, but don't expect that to be what we're talking about |
| 18:23.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | then how would you expect apps from maemo repos to run on such system? |
| 18:23.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that's what fmg and others are aiming at |
| 18:24.37 | Wizzup | how many apps depend specifically on upstart? are they foss? who are all the others? |
| 18:25.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | how does that care? are you volunteering to port them *all*? |
| 18:25.10 | Wizzup | I am not aiming to run the whole system unmodified. |
| 18:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | then you're not aiming at same thing the current project does |
| 18:26.41 | Wizzup | We'll see. |
| 18:26.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | the project goal AIUI is "rebase maemo on Devuan", not "port Hildon and a few other maemo bits to debian" |
| 18:26.49 | Wizzup | I don't see the point of *all* apps if it becomes a PITA, and I specifically do not see the point in using a dead init system |
| 18:27.19 | Wizzup | but I don't think we are anywhere near these points yet, so yeah. |
| 18:27.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is we don't want to port a 1000 apps plus a complete OS |
| 18:27.43 | Wizzup | Who said they need 1000 apps? |
| 18:27.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | who needs or doesn't need? |
| 18:27.57 | Wizzup | I see it as a great way to get what I like from maemo, on a stable base, and drop all the dead sw that will only make everyones life worse |
| 18:28.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | go ahead then, and call it hildon desktop. simple as that |
| 18:28.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's probably not too hard to port HD to any other linux distro |
| 18:29.30 | Wizzup | there is more than just hd, but I don't think breaking our backs over silly things (like the closed wifi daemon crap) makes any sense |
| 18:30.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I duscussed that with fmg for like 6 weeks until finally we found out we agree on the goal, just not on the nomencalture to describe the way to reach it |
| 18:31.06 | KotCzarny | um, 'we'? what part of code/work are you doing? |
| 18:31.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | so i'm reluctant to start all over again with very same discussion |
| 18:31.56 | KotCzarny | unless your whole rant has some roots specific to some device |
| 18:33.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the long history see |
| 18:33.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
| 18:33.25 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 18:34.50 | KotCzarny | but again, fptf was done specifically for neo900 or generic opening? |
| 18:49.46 | KotCzarny | so yeah. better name would be fremantle porting to neo900 task force |
| 18:50.13 | KotCzarny | leaving that out means it's not focused on any particular device |
| 19:12.58 | *** join/#maemo dmth|intevation (~dmth|inte@nat-guest.intevation.de) |
| 19:35.20 | *** join/#maemo sparetire (~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire) |
| 19:57.32 | *** join/#maemo florian_ (~fuchs@p5B1459CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:58.08 | *** join/#maemo florian (~fuchs@p5B1459CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:58.08 | *** join/#maemo florian (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 20:19.17 | *** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@x4e34c872.dyn.telefonica.de) |
| 20:27.17 | *** join/#maemo xy2_ (~xy2_@58.245.16.93.rev.sfr.net) |
| 21:56.13 | *** join/#maemo auenf (David@121.212.72.188) |
| 22:00.25 | *** part/#maemo wookey (~wookey@cheddar.halon.org.uk) |
| 23:00.55 | *** join/#maemo cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) |
| 23:37.04 | *** join/#maemo cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) |
| 23:52.08 | *** join/#maemo eMHa (~mh@p54B0F228.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:52.35 | *** join/#maemo cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) |