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| 08:29.46 | buZz | hmm curious ... https://www.arduino.cc/download_handler.php?f=/arduino-1.8.1-linuxarm.tar.xz |
| 08:29.53 | buZz | wonder if that'll work on n900 :) |
| 08:30.06 | buZz | guess i should install easydebian or something? |
| 08:31.37 | bencoh | what's that ? |
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| 08:33.16 | buZz | is that 'easy-deb-chroot' ? |
| 08:33.28 | buZz | bencoh: its the Arduino IDE, they now have a arm release |
| 08:33.58 | bencoh | why would you want that on n900? |
| 08:34.06 | buZz | for infield reprogramming |
| 08:34.13 | buZz | with less hardware ;) |
| 08:34.44 | bencoh | The environment is written in Java and based on Processing and other open-source software. |
| 08:35.00 | buZz | yeah , gcc , avrdude |
| 08:35.14 | buZz | specific recompiles of gcc though |
| 08:35.18 | buZz | and patched avrdude |
| 08:35.20 | bencoh | why would you want to run such a bloat on n900? :/ |
| 08:35.28 | buZz | :) |
| 08:35.37 | buZz | java isnt bloat specifically |
| 08:36.03 | bencoh | I'd suggest gcc/avrdude and your favourite text/code editor on n900 |
| 08:36.08 | buZz | install easy-deb-chroot |
| 08:40.37 | buZz | i'll download the debian image at work :) |
| 08:41.01 | Maxdamantus | speaking of which, does anyone here use vim a lot, and if so, does it tend to crash xterm in Maemo for you? |
| 08:41.30 | Maxdamantus | I always have to use vim really slowly in osso-xterm, otherwise it crashes. |
| 08:42.02 | Maxdamantus | it ocassionally crashes when doing things in irssi too, but nowhere near as often as in vim if I try to do things at a natural speed. |
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| 08:43.00 | Maxdamantus | writing things in insert mode is fine, but command mode usually crashes if I try entering too many things at once. |
| 08:43.45 | buZz | i havent been able to crash osso-xterm with irssi yet |
| 08:44.04 | Maxdamantus | it's fairly rare with irssi. |
| 08:44.11 | buZz | or anything else :P |
| 08:44.17 | buZz | but i only own a n900 since 2017 |
| 08:44.49 | Maxdamantus | The irssi thing might have to do with tmux, since I'm pretty much always using irssi in tmux in ssh. |
| 08:45.16 | buZz | i just use screen, cause i'm ancient |
| 08:45.28 | Maxdamantus | but vim seems to crash consistently through tmux/ssh or just when running it from maemo or a debian chroot on the device. |
| 08:45.44 | Maxdamantus | btw, root exploit found in screen in the last few days. |
| 08:45.58 | buZz | still, if vim crashes, it shouldnt pull xterm along |
| 08:46.22 | Maxdamantus | It's not vim crashing, just xterm. |
| 08:46.31 | buZz | local root if you use the logfiles in screen, nice one |
| 08:46.35 | buZz | (i dont use that) |
| 08:47.22 | Maxdamantus | It's not a matter of whether you use them. |
| 08:47.40 | Maxdamantus | it just depends on where the +s bit is. |
| 08:48.05 | Maxdamantus | if it's setuid root, then any user can create empty/log files as root. |
| 08:48.18 | buZz | on multiuser systems yeh |
| 08:49.12 | Maxdamantus | well, on systems where you already have programs running under supposedly non-trusted users. |
| 08:49.46 | Maxdamantus | there's a reason there are usually 30 or so users in /etc/passwd, even on a "single-user" system. |
| 08:50.17 | buZz | yeah, if you give them passwords to log in, you're not so sane ;) |
| 08:50.32 | buZz | or even a shell |
| 08:55.10 | bencoh | Maxdamantus: I use vim on n900 |
| 08:55.21 | bencoh | but I ditched osso-xterm a long time ago |
| 08:55.29 | bencoh | that's actually one of the very first things I did |
| 08:56.36 | bencoh | I use (plain old) xterm with some fine-tuned Xdefaults, and a heavily patched xorg keymap |
| 08:57.32 | bencoh | (so that I can type pretty much any character I need) |
| 08:58.15 | bencoh | some day I'll ditch maemo input method and replace it with ibus, too ... |
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| 09:07.30 | Maxdamantus | Yeah, I could mostly get by with rxvt-unicode. The main things I was missing when trying to use it as my main terminal were page up/down and something to interact with X selections. |
| 09:07.45 | Maxdamantus | so for the latter I just used `xclip` a lot more than usualy. |
| 09:07.52 | Maxdamantus | s/y.$/./ |
| 09:09.08 | Maxdamantus | Dunno what to do about page up/down .. my layout is already fairly full. |
| 09:09.37 | Maxdamantus | Have pretty much just fit every printable ASCII character on it. |
| 09:10.04 | Maxdamantus | with one double modifier. |
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| 09:48.28 | n0x | Anybody here? |
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| 11:55.56 | ff_ | Maxdamantus: for page up/down home/end I use http://paste.debian.net/910499/ in /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-51 file |
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| 12:13.28 | Maxdamantus | Mm, I already have up/down/left/right under the modifier. |
| 12:13.53 | Maxdamantus | Guess I could just make it shift+level2 |
| 12:13.58 | Maxdamantus | for pgup/pgdown |
| 12:18.43 | buZz | lol wtf, easy-deb-chroot's image downloader only has debian 5 or 6? :D |
| 12:18.46 | buZz | kinda very ancient |
| 12:20.26 | Wizzup | at this point I'd suggest to get alpine chroots instead |
| 12:22.31 | buZz | hm, 'alpine linux' the distro? |
| 12:23.04 | buZz | if i search 'alpine' in app manager, it finds some licensing program? |
| 12:23.09 | buZz | is that what you ment? :P |
| 12:23.29 | buZz | ah |
| 12:23.30 | buZz | Alpine - an Alternatively Licensed Program for Internet. |
| 12:23.30 | buZz | News & Email - is a terminal-based tool for reading, sending, and managing electronic messages. |
| 12:23.38 | buZz | ok, that cant be what you ment :P |
| 12:26.31 | ff_ | also xbindkeys is nice, by every shift + mod5 + ctrl + any key combination we can start "evkey -d -t -1 /dev/input/event1" and then any commands |
| 12:30.07 | ff_ | buZz: I thin jessie is the newest, so it's debian 8 |
| 12:30.36 | ff_ | *think |
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| 12:32.18 | ff_ | from here http://qole.org/files/ |
| 12:48.46 | buZz | ooo cool! i can use that with easy-deb-chroot ? |
| 12:50.35 | ff_ | yes |
| 12:50.39 | buZz | thanks :D |
| 12:51.43 | ff_ | more gratitude for sulu :) |
| 12:52.16 | buZz | thanks sulu :D |
| 12:52.23 | ff_ | he compiled 2.6 kernel & build distro |
| 12:54.14 | ff_ | it work with kernel power, don't know with stock kernel |
| 12:55.47 | buZz | i think i run power kernel indeed |
| 12:55.53 | buZz | i guess most CSSU runners do |
| 12:58.16 | ff_ | you may right, ker pow here and it works fine |
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| 14:55.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | idly wonders if it's about time for CSSU to roll a real full system update to fremantle PR2.0 |
| 14:57.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | of course with keeping compatibility for *all* apps that do not have a tightly mainatined and thoroughly tested update in CSSU |
| 15:00.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | even if that might need LD_PRELOAD or chroot for some apps |
| 15:02.23 | DocScrutinizer51 | can't be too hard in theory at least to write a generic backward compatibility wrapper that takes care about all apps that are listed in a config file containing all apps of unknown compatibility to PR2.0 |
| 15:07.43 | DocScrutinizer51 | PR2.0 could finally sanitize optification (aka nuke it), introduce new kernel and glibc, and possibly even switch to thumb if we could manage to provide genuine thumbified fiasco image etc |
| 15:17.03 | ff_ | for now is it possible to unpack/mount combine img, modify it, pack/build the img and flash device with it? |
| 15:20.55 | ff_ | which tool can be used to build combine & fiasco image? |
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| 15:50.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | use fiascogen |
| 15:52.26 | Vajb | i thought that that pali's tool can create images now? |
| 15:52.43 | Vajb | that xf000 or something like that |
| 15:54.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | fiascogen |
| 15:55.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | 0xffff maybe too |
| 15:55.59 | Vajb | -.- see, that's why i usually shut up. Not even close |
| 15:56.56 | ff_ | if fiascogen can generate combine too? |
| 16:00.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | that's its purpose. 0xffff maybe only can extract, or somesuch limitation |
| 16:00.34 | sixwheeledbeast | 0xFFFF my favourite number :) |
| 16:01.18 | ff_ | :) |
| 16:01.22 | DocScrutinizer51 | also 0xffff is a flasher, not an image builder |
| 16:01.30 | ff_ | fiascogen from maemo sdk |
| 16:03.48 | ff_ | too much effort for me with sdk, anyway is there any faster method to access to clipboard than python gtk? |
| 16:04.58 | ff_ | python is quite slow |
| 16:05.18 | DocScrutinizer51 | effort with sdk? |
| 16:06.22 | ff_ | I don't have access to PC now |
| 16:06.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | so what do you need a fiasco builder for? |
| 16:08.39 | ff_ | modify image, build and use it as fast backup |
| 16:09.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | >>for now is it possible to unpack/mount combine img, modify it, pack/build the img and flash device with it?<< yes, with a linux PC and fiascogen |
| 16:09.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | also see |
| 16:09.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~bm |
| 16:09.46 | infobot | backupmenu is, like, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975, or one-click install handling dependency issues: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/et_al/HAM-catalogs/BM.install |
| 16:11.07 | DocScrutinizer51 | I *guess* you could also run fiascogen on target (N900) |
| 16:11.30 | DocScrutinizer51 | BM doesn't |
| 16:11.56 | NeKit | is it possible to have rootfs with latest CSSU packages to use it inside chroot/LXC on another device? |
| 16:12.03 | DocScrutinizer51 | but there's an explanation how ro build a fiasco from BM backup |
| 16:12.47 | DocScrutinizer51 | NeKit: not really |
| 16:16.21 | ff_ | so backupmenu is the best for now I think |
| 16:20.49 | ff_ | is it possible to run osRescue.img in RAM and reboot that boot osRescue on the same device? :D |
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| 16:51.24 | enyc | DocScrutinizer51: whats' the story with the kernel, why is it stuck on 2.6.28 and not at least 2.6.32 f.example ooi ? |
| 16:52.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | it's about the closed blobs mainly PVR afaik |
| 16:52.32 | DocScrutinizer51 | maybe also API changes |
| 16:53.23 | DocScrutinizer51 | ff_: no |
| 16:54.19 | ff_ | because of resetting RAM during reboot? |
| 16:56.04 | ff_ | I know that's silly, but I'm just curious |
| 16:56.57 | bencoh | ff_: wait, what do you want to do? |
| 16:58.10 | bencoh | oh, I think I get it |
| 16:58.24 | bencoh | well, you can actually do something quite close to it, using kexec |
| 16:58.39 | ff_ | on n900, put osRescue.img into RAM, reboot device, but do something once in boot region that osRescue will boot from RAM |
| 16:58.42 | bencoh | but I wouldn't assume kexec for arm worked well with kernel 2.6.28 |
| 16:59.44 | bencoh | kexec is actually meant for that - put kernel/initrd in some place in ram, run some command instead of the usual reboot, and kernel jumps to new kernel after doing some cleaning |
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| 17:02.24 | bencoh | actually motorola droid4 (nice hw kbd / slider, omap4 with separate modem) had a locked bootloader but cyanogen guys were able to load custom kernels on it using kexec |
| 17:02.41 | bencoh | but I suspect android kernel there was a bit more recent |
| 17:03.25 | bencoh | (if it wasn't for the locked bootloader I'd prolly have bought a droid4 already) |
| 17:03.52 | ff_ | yeh, something like that, thanks |
| 17:04.39 | bencoh | well ... https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70083 |
| 17:04.45 | bencoh | doesn't look good |
| 17:05.54 | bencoh | it might actually be because of the wdog actually |
| 17:06.26 | bencoh | let's say that new kernel doesn't have time to reconfigure wdog ... then it will hang |
| 17:06.55 | NeKit | heh, I'm currently trying my luck to get Droid 4 |
| 17:07.14 | ff_ | I was thinking of buying droid4, but you mentioned about locked bootloader... |
| 17:07.27 | ff_ | :) |
| 17:07.43 | bencoh | NeKit: well, if you succeed in doing anything useful with it |
| 17:08.10 | bencoh | I mean ... apart from kexecing |
| 17:08.35 | NeKit | if it doesn't get confiscated by Russian customs first, but what's wrong with kexec? |
| 17:09.06 | bencoh | nothing per-see, it just means that you have to 1. trust their bootloader 2. run an android kernel + some userland first |
| 17:09.16 | bencoh | then you can jump to <insert open OS here> |
| 17:10.03 | bencoh | to my knowledge nobody reversed the RIL used there, btw (since cyanogen reuses blobs_ |
| 17:10.18 | bencoh | so you'd have to reverse it your self if you wanted to use phone |
| 17:10.25 | NeKit | it can be reused through Mer ofono plugin |
| 17:10.37 | bencoh | on keep android and slap libhybris/ofono on top of it. nemo/sfos-style |
| 17:10.42 | bencoh | s/on/or/ |
| 17:11.44 | bencoh | but that means moar blobs |
| 17:12.10 | bencoh | it's possible though, that's how sfos works on all those androiphones |
| 17:12.42 | NeKit | the good thing that it's relatively hardware-agnostic then |
| 17:14.29 | bencoh | this might be a way to get more people to work on the hildon/maemo-like port |
| 17:15.29 | bencoh | apart from the fact that maemo-like usually means Xorg, and that wont really work on top of android/hybris afaict |
| 17:17.02 | bencoh | xwayland on wayland on android, maybe :> |
| 17:17.18 | NeKit | I could start hildon on Redmi Note 2 with libhybris graphics, but it was hacked to render directly to SurfaceFlinger instead of returning picture to Xorg |
| 17:17.45 | bencoh | NeKit: hildon-gtk2 or hildon-gtk3? |
| 17:18.01 | NeKit | hildon-gtk2, but it shouldn't matter |
| 17:18.12 | bencoh | NeKit: maemo apps still expect gtk2, which means xorg |
| 17:18.17 | bencoh | unless you hacked gtk2 as well? |
| 17:18.38 | NeKit | Xorg is running, just not displaying anything |
| 17:18.57 | bencoh | sure but how does gtk2 render? |
| 17:20.32 | NeKit | it renders to pixmap as usual, then Hildon loads it to texture and uses OpenGL to render everything |
| 17:21.39 | bencoh | well I guess I'm missing something / should dive into the gtk/hildon relationship |
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| 19:47.57 | freemangordon | NeKit: and how's that supposed to work in non-compositing mode? |
| 19:48.26 | NeKit | it won't :) |
| 19:48.48 | freemangordon | :) |
| 19:49.41 | freemangordon | yeah, my question was rhetoric. |
| 19:51.11 | NeKit | I looked at Raspberry Pi OpenGL + Xorg example (their driver doesn't have Xorg support). It's possible to do rendering to offscreen buffer, then copy it to pixmap and to Xorg |
| 19:51.41 | NeKit | not sure how much doing multiply copies would hurt perfomance, but it's better solution probably |
| 19:51.54 | freemangordon | NeKit: it seems you know the stuff, why don;t you join the porting party? lets have it first running on upstream linux, then we'll find a way to run it on wayland/libhybris |
| 19:52.26 | freemangordon | NeKit: we can use clutter for that I guess |
| 19:52.33 | freemangordon | (offscreen rendering) |
| 19:53.16 | freemangordon | but, I guess the performance will be terrible, pipeline flush on every frame |
| 19:57.38 | NeKit | well, I'm not sure how I can be helpful to the porting party right now, since I don't have GTK+/Maemo experience |
| 19:57.56 | NeKit | what I wanted to try is integrating libhybris builds to make it more or less run on recent devices |
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| 20:02.10 | freemangordon | NeKit: well, porting hildon is just a part of the job that needs to be done, there is stuff like moving to modern init system (be it upstart or systemd), packaging, etc. The point is - if there is something usable, more people will be attracted. At least this is what I hope for. |
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| 20:26.40 | NeKit | to start apps without source code, like Maemo system apps, would chroot be needed? |
| 20:38.04 | bencoh | in a classic Xorg environment, I'd expect both libs to coexist nicely in the same rootfs |
| 20:38.19 | bencoh | since different ABI means different lib version number |
| 20:39.51 | bencoh | we might have issues with share (/usr/share and the likes) files though |
| 20:40.29 | bencoh | if they become incompatible for any reason we'd have to rebuild old libs with a different share prefix |
| 20:40.47 | bencoh | (or new ones for that matters) |
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| 21:44.33 | DocScrutinizer51 | or use mount namespaces |
| 21:45.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | per process or per user |
| 21:45.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | pretty simple |
| 21:45.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | a 5liner wrapper script |
| 21:51.47 | DocScrutinizer51 | I'm quite sceptic that stuff like 'modern init system' is anything needed to improve attractiviry of maemo. Rather support for existing apps incl their old init system is a key issue. Seen too many OS fail just because no initial stock of working apps been available so they died from no chicken no egg |
| 21:53.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | linux is attractive because of basic compatibility to 1990 apps |
| 21:55.56 | DocScrutinizer51 | stuff like wayland and systemd and their proponents are denying that and think new ==leete==better |
| 21:56.02 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer51: the problem is that maemo init system is a mixture of upstart and sysv and that doesn't fit in anything upstream |
| 21:56.17 | DocScrutinizer51 | so? |
| 21:56.54 | freemangordon | we already discussed that - the less forks to support, the more time will be used for more sane tasks |
| 21:57.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | my init system on my PC also doesn't fit into upstream. Maemo is maemo's upstream *particularly* for sich distro specific stuff like init system |
| 21:57.49 | freemangordon | give me 5 fulltime job devs and I will make it like that |
| 21:58.35 | freemangordon | but until then, it is better to stick to the wide-spread distros |
| 21:59.16 | DocScrutinizer51 | oh, and the waaay more demanding task to MAKE A WHOLE NEW (to maemo) INIT system is feasible part time? |
| 21:59.53 | freemangordon | it is not whole new, scripts just need to be ported and this is trivial |
| 22:00.14 | freemangordon | maemo is using upstart already |
| 22:00.34 | freemangordon | AND sys4init |
| 22:00.40 | freemangordon | *sysvinit |
| 22:01.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | so? |
| 22:01.40 | freemangordon | but, those are used in such a hacky way... - or example, lots of things are started by both upstart and sysvinit and they check if they were already started |
| 22:02.34 | freemangordon | so, the task of moving from /etc/event.d to /etc/init is not a whole new init system |
| 22:02.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | when porting init scripts is trivial then why do you need a new init system instead porting NEW apps to the plain sysv init that maemo is to all apps? |
| 22:02.50 | freemangordon | no, maemo is not plain sysv |
| 22:03.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | it evidently is, from a app perspective |
| 22:03.17 | freemangordon | maemo is more upstart than sysv |
| 22:03.53 | freemangordon | just take a look in /etc/event.d |
| 22:04.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | even my fucking systemd PC still has 80 percent plain sysv init scripts |
| 22:04.38 | freemangordon | toldya, check what is in /etc/event.d |
| 22:04.45 | DocScrutinizer51 | I guess I had more looks to /etc than you, on maemo |
| 22:05.00 | freemangordon | what is your point then? |
| 22:05.09 | DocScrutinizer51 | I *know* what's in there |
| 22:05.32 | freemangordon | cool, then don;t say maemo init is sysv |
| 22:05.38 | freemangordon | because it is not |
| 22:06.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | and upstart as well as systemd have a sysv compatibility layer, and I don't see a single reason why maemo NEEDS a new init system |
| 22:07.06 | freemangordon | I didn;t say maemo needs new init system, what I said is that maemo startup scripts have to be ported to some of the exeisting upstream init systems |
| 22:07.14 | DocScrutinizer51 | dafaq, read me!!! I *NEVER* said 'maemo is sysv init" |
| 22:07.54 | freemangordon | "...to the plain sysv init that maemo is..." |
| 22:08.15 | freemangordon | unless I misunderstand what you said |
| 22:08.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | partial quating == abyssmally lame |
| 22:08.46 | freemangordon | comeon, it is 10 lines ^^^. anyway. |
| 22:08.54 | *** join/#maemo dafox (~dafox@2a02:a448:c25a:1:7061:3b2a:37df:ded3) |
| 22:08.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | "... I misunderstand..." |
| 22:09.13 | DocScrutinizer51 | yes you do |
| 22:09.17 | freemangordon | could be |
| 22:09.18 | DocScrutinizer51 | always |
| 22:09.50 | DocScrutinizer51 | you're quoting me partial to change meaning of my words |
| 22:12.31 | DocScrutinizer51 | ls /etc/init.d/* |
| 22:18.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | this works on maemo, old age systems, even ubuntu and opensuse |
| 22:19.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | so why do you think maemo acripts need porting? |
| 22:23.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | or maemo needs a "new init system' except for obscure upstream compatibility for NEW apps that are ported from upstream |
| 22:24.14 | DocScrutinizer51 | or WHY maemo needs... |
| 22:28.49 | freemangordon | maemo sysvinit scripts are missing LSB headers, upstart scripts need startup dependencies changed |
| 22:39.46 | Sicelo | couple of things in this chan have left me surprised .. DocScrutinizer51 and Pali have systemd on their machines? :P |
| 22:43.03 | sixwheeledbeast | Well it's a bit difficult not to, hence the arguments over init freedom. You could also have systemd on the machine but not use it for init. |
| 22:46.34 | Sicelo | understandable |
| 22:50.17 | sixwheeledbeast | Devuan is still in beta too |
| 22:53.38 | DocScrutinizer51 | Sicelo: (systemd) just because I hate switching from suse after almost 20 years even more than systemd crap |
| 22:55.04 | Sicelo | is it your init system? or you setup something else? |
| 22:55.39 | Sicelo | i have systemd too since 2 or 3 months ago, when i decided to used Debian Sid |
| 23:05.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | Sicelo: it's init system atm, and I *hate* it |
| 23:06.03 | DocScrutinizer51 | at least nobody can blame me for hating without knowing |
| 23:07.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | Sicelo: move to devuan?! |
| 23:07.55 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~devuan |
| 23:07.56 | infobot | well, devuan is the most awesome distro, or https://devuan.org |
| 23:12.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | sixwheeledbeast: it's still beta but reported rock solid for servers at least. Desktop stuff is too systemd infested and alternatives just emerging. xfce seems to mostly work |
| 23:16.59 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~*uptime |
| 23:17.19 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~+uptime |
| 23:18.44 | *** join/#maemo cebreidian (U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org) |
| 23:46.42 | Juesto | hmm, looks like infobot lost connection instad |
| 23:46.53 | Juesto | it was down, right? |
| 23:47.47 | Juesto | interesting distro |
| 23:48.13 | LjL | ~flatbattrecover |
| 23:50.48 | Juesto | Which distro would you guys recommend from the BSD family? |
| 23:59.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | ibot reboots every now and then, but not since 2d 5h |