IRC log for #maemo on 20160722

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10:34.15keriodid someone try one of those magnetic microusb adapters on a n900?
10:42.23KotCzarnylike-jr tried
10:42.28KotCzarnyno good experience
10:42.42KotCzarny2 or 3 types
10:48.02L29Ahepoxy ♥
10:49.44KotCzarnyhis concern was that the piece didnt want to LEAVE the port
10:49.46KotCzarnyhehe
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10:54.06L29Ahoh
10:59.08*** join/#maemo CatButts (~c@188.173.53.45)
10:59.53CatButtshai guise, I'm poking around for phones, platforms and their comunities
11:00.14KotCzarnygo iphone
11:00.41CatButtsI have a J2ME featurephone currently
11:00.50CatButtslooking at the N9000
11:00.59KotCzarnydo you want www browsing?
11:01.10KotCzarnyare you a hacker?
11:01.15KotCzarnydo you love linux?
11:01.28KotCzarnyif its N/Y/Y then go for it
11:01.57CatButtsmaybe/maybe/likely
11:02.33KotCzarnyin short lack of featureful modern browser is a dealbreaker for most people
11:02.51KotCzarnysimple sites work, but anything images/script heavy is just too much
11:03.08KotCzarnyotherwise n900 is one of the best phones created
11:03.25CatButtsI recently saw some newfangled doohickey called PocketCHIP which sparked off desire to have linux pocket PC with wifi
11:03.28CatButtshttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/hXDizTasY6A/maxresdefault.jpg
11:03.36CatButtsbut then I think to myself
11:03.46CatButtsthat keyboard is going to be shit
11:03.51KotCzarnypocketchip is nice, but extremely limited
11:03.55CatButtssurely there are better things out there
11:04.02KotCzarnyeven more than n900
11:04.08CatButtsreally?
11:04.20KotCzarnyyup
11:04.21CatButtsI was under impression that it has better CPU and double the RAM
11:04.50KotCzarnyand a crummy design
11:04.56CatButtsyes
11:05.02KotCzarnygrab pandora if you are into such things
11:05.04CatButtsthe keyboard, just by looking at it
11:06.28CatButtswhat's one priced, roughly?
11:06.53CatButtsI looked around for SH n900
11:07.00CatButtsroughly 100USD
11:08.15KotCzarnyn900 can be obtained for ~20-30usd
11:08.20KotCzarnyif you get good deal
11:08.24CatButtshttps://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ tempting
11:08.37CatButtsthat's a relative of pandora
11:09.16KotCzarnyah, yes, meant pyra
11:09.40CatButts>Using a resistive touchscreen which allows a more accurate stylus.
11:09.42CatButtsyes
11:09.45CatButtsthank you
11:09.53CatButtsI bloody hate capacitive screens
11:10.17KotCzarnybut as i said, n900 can be had cheaply, and its very nice if you prefer linux
11:10.36CatButtsso, what's Maemo 5 like?
11:10.45CatButtsI see it still gets love today
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11:10.49CatButtsunlike, say
11:10.54CatButtsSymbian or J2ME
11:10.56CatButtshahahaha
11:11.14KotCzarnylinux
11:11.17KotCzarnyseriously
11:11.27KotCzarnywith some touch of touch friendliness
11:11.33CatButtsso it's a fully fledged linux from the go, yes?
11:11.39KotCzarnyyes
11:11.50KotCzarnystuck in 2.6.28 kernel and old glibc though
11:12.10KotCzarnygood folks of maemo working on it to bring fully working mainline tho
11:12.19CatButtssilly queschun, though
11:12.31CatButtsdoes the n900 have any stylus of its own?
11:12.37KotCzarnyyes
11:12.39CatButtsgood
11:12.42KotCzarnybut anything works
11:12.45KotCzarnyeven a match
11:12.45CatButtsyes
11:12.47KotCzarnyor nail
11:13.03CatButtsI like the idea of having place to park stylus, in the device
11:13.11CatButtsjust like the DS
11:13.26KotCzarnyyes, but stylus is only for precise touching
11:13.35KotCzarnymostly i just only use my fingers
11:14.18CatButtsIt'd probably make a decent drawing tool
11:15.20CatButtsif I wanted only that, I'd just get a Galaxy Note, with dem fancy Wacom digitizers
11:15.26Siceloit makes the best .. see youtube mypaint ;)
11:17.00CatButtshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66RBfrBgL2E
11:17.54CatButtslooks more than adequate
11:19.11keriothe n900 is a desktop linux from 2008
11:19.24CatButtswhat would coding C and compiling be like on this device?
11:19.40keriothe n900 swaps on boot
11:19.59kerioand has barely any space on the rootfs
11:20.10kerioeverything is installed on a separate partition and there's a hell of symlinks
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11:21.37kerioit's not a clean system at all
11:21.59Siceloof course not
11:22.03keriobuy one if you find a decent deal and if you want to own a piece of computing history
11:22.10keriobut nowadays, it's not a good smartphone
11:23.12CatButtsif I can get something the likes of Opera Mini running, I be happy
11:23.53keriothe default browser is based on gecko
11:23.57kerioit's kinda old
11:24.06kerioyou can get a more recent firefox fennec (still old) from repos
11:24.07SiceloOpera Mini 7 runs
11:25.04CatButtsso, in what way is PocketCHIP more limited than the n900
11:25.24keriodoes the pocketchip even have a case
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11:25.50CatButtshttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/hXDizTasY6A/maxresdefault.jpg
11:26.09CatButtsthe CHIP is the little core that plugs in the back
11:26.18keriothat's not a case
11:26.21keriothere's exposed contacts
11:26.28keriothat will last a grand total of 3 minutes in a pocket
11:26.43CatButtseh, I worry about shit design later
11:26.50CatButtsI asked question spec-wise
11:27.02Sicelochip has better specs of course
11:27.15CatButtsand shittier keyboard
11:27.19CatButtshaha
11:28.04CatButtsthe CHIP itself comes at 9USD
11:28.17CatButtsbut the PocketCHIP comes at 70USD
11:28.19Wizzup+9USD shipping
11:28.25CatButtsso it feels a bit
11:28.26Wizzup+XXUSD for extras
11:28.28CatButtsrippoff
11:28.51Siceloi don't believe the keyboard is in the $9 .. afaik the $9 is just the board?
11:29.07CatButts$9 is the small core
11:29.10CatButtsthe CHIP
11:29.19CatButtsPC on a board
11:29.44Siceloyep
11:30.53CatButtsmaybe ripoff is not the right word
11:30.57CatButtscash-in
11:32.33CatButtsI wonder what PalmOS is like these days
11:32.39CatButtscommunity-wise
11:33.02CatButtssymbian, super-ded
11:33.09CatButtswinmo, ???
11:33.17CatButtsJ2ME, ded
11:35.54KotCzarnycatbutts, chip is 9$ + 20$ shipping :P
11:35.58KotCzarnydont believe the marketing
11:36.23CatButtsat this point, the n900 looks the most tempting
11:36.38KotCzarnyjust dont get it at 100usd point
11:36.44KotCzarnylook for 20-30 deals
11:36.51CatButtsaye
11:37.10CatButtsso, what other interesting maemo phones are there around
11:37.20KotCzarnywatch out for: 1/ bad usb port, 2/ bad modem
11:37.36KotCzarnythere are no other meaemo phones
11:37.40KotCzarnynot yet
11:37.50KotCzarnythere is neo900 project, but its in another price range
11:40.00CatButts>resistive dualtouch
11:40.05CatButtsI'm curious
11:40.15CatButtsit's like, the best of both worlds
11:40.42CatButtscapacitive multi-touch and resistive precision
11:40.50kerioye the neo900 is unapproachable unless you're seriously dedicated
11:42.00CatButtseeeyup
11:43.03CatButtsso, has anyone here try write and compile things on n900?
11:44.41KotCzarnyi did
11:44.47KotCzarnyi wrote me an audio player
11:44.49KotCzarny~oscp
11:44.49infobotit has been said that oscp is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94590
11:45.10CatButtsso you can use the phone as dev environment, yes
11:45.42KotCzarnyyou can, but its a tad slow
11:45.53KotCzarnyi use arm based sbc board and compile in chroot
11:46.01KotCzarnyits just linux, armel one
11:46.23CatButtsI wrote actionscript on j2me phone with modded opera mini text editor while on vacation a few times
11:46.29CatButtscould have been worse
11:46.34CatButtsbut not by much :P
11:48.03KotCzarnyhave you ever wrote linux app?
11:49.29CatButtsnot really, I am a stubborn windows user
11:49.37CatButtsXP, to be exact
11:49.43CatButts7 is ok
11:49.54CatButtsonwards past that, it's all downhill
11:50.24CatButtsI wrote a python script for dd if that counts :P
11:50.50CatButtsI religiously back up all my partitions once a month from a Puppy Linux
11:50.59KotCzarnywin7 isnt that bad either
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12:19.16CatButtshttp://blog.nextthing.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Crunch_Pocuolus-1024x576.jpg amazing
12:20.21CatButtshttp://blog.nextthing.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/P1440935-1024x576.jpg why so sad, PocketCHIP?
12:20.22CatButtshahaha
12:29.10CatButtsah, here's another question
12:29.20CatButtswhat's battery life like for the n900?
12:30.04KotCzarny~1-2 weeks of standby
12:30.12jogareally?
12:30.21KotCzarnyfew hours of constant use on wifi/lcd on
12:30.41KotCzarnyjoga: mine has 6 days of standby, and my battery is 7 years old ;)
12:30.44jogawell, my battery is almost 7 years old by now I think, it lasts typical use for 1-2 days
12:31.09jogabut would definitely not stay weeks on standby with all network connections off etc
12:31.37jogaor if it did, probably just trying to do anything would immediately shut it down
12:31.37joga:)
12:31.37KotCzarnymine does, with gsm on
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12:32.40CatButtsI probably won't be needing gsm
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12:34.01KotCzarnythen you can buy one with broken modem chip
12:34.07KotCzarnyshould be dirt cheap
12:38.06CatButtsI make assumption sunvox works on Maemo 5
12:39.14CatButtsah, right, they have releases for Maemo
12:42.53KotCzarnyas long it compiles with old libs, it works
12:43.34CatButtsit's closed source, sorry
12:44.04CatButtsbut, now that you mention it, I need ask this for SDL2
12:44.18CatButtsif the answer is yes, I am set
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12:50.25*** join/#maemo Oksanaa (~Oksanaa@Maemo/community/ex-council/Wikiwide)
12:50.50OksanaaJust how difficult porting redshift is? https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/redshift
12:53.02CatButtsuhllo
12:53.11OksanaaLibxxf86vm1 is something to look at, libgconf2-4 vs libgconf-2-4 is confusing, gconf-service is also interesting
12:54.46OksanaaHello :-)
12:55.20CatButtsyou wouldn't happen know if SDL2 is a thing on maemo5, would you?
12:55.47KotCzarnyhttp://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/
12:56.11KotCzarnyi guess no one compiled it (yet)
12:56.15OksanaaNay, libsdl1.2 ?
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12:57.09Oksanaa/me looks into present, Kot'Czarny shows possibility of future
12:57.10KotCzarnynope, sdl2
12:57.15CatButtsbummer
12:57.27KotCzarnyCatButts: you can easily check if it compiles ok
12:57.32KotCzarnyjust install maemo sdk
12:57.40KotCzarnyor download vm image
12:57.50CatButtsI'd probably want to see if I can get device first
12:57.58CatButtsto form an interest
12:59.39OksanaaDevice is easy to get, I think... Just do not try to put development environment onto it. RootFS can become full quickly.
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13:05.25CatButtsdoes the n900 charge from USB or separate jack?
13:06.20CatButtsI got cheap sale advert saying the charging jack has defect
13:06.28OksanaaMicroUSB, yes
13:06.34CatButtsit's a trap, then
13:07.10OksanaaNokia N900 can have charging port easily breaking. Depends on how you treat the device.
13:07.29OksanaaYou can fix it before it becomes broken, too
13:07.50Oksanaa~usbfix
13:07.50infobotusbfix is probably http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt
13:10.06CatButtsyeah, I am not exactly confident in my surface-soldering skills
13:10.21CatButtsand the only iron I have now is large, 100W one
13:11.02OksanaaClose. i have a 60W one at home. Fortunately, there is a friendly makerspace close by
13:11.47DocScrutinizer05and friendly smartass experts in this channel ;-P
13:12.40OksanaaGlad to see you :-D going to sleep soon-ish
13:12.46CatButtseh, found for 50 USD
13:12.52CatButtsnot quite a bargain
13:13.03kerioDocScrutinizer05: offhand, do you remember how low EDV1 is?
13:16.13kerio3.2ish?
13:16.16kerio3.4ish?
13:16.17DocScrutinizer05ug, nope
13:16.24DocScrutinizer053.4ish
13:16.33DocScrutinizer05but wait
13:17.37DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/72364948
13:18.03kerio3.2ish, then
13:18.11DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
13:18.12DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
13:18.14DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
13:18.15DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
13:19.52DocScrutinizer053.4ish is bme bailout iitc
13:20.14DocScrutinizer05which is the problem with learning cycles
13:21.40kerioi wonder if the bme replacement also bails out at 3.4
13:21.46kerioor if it waits a bit after EDV1
13:21.50kerioistr it waits
13:22.42DocScrutinizer05bme replacement iirc waits for EDV1 :-)
13:23.22DocScrutinizer05and hopefully then 60s more
13:23.30DocScrutinizer05ask pali
13:25.08kerioyay i has a calibration
13:25.14OksanaaRedshift depends on libgconf-2-4, which depends on libglib2.0-0 > 2.31.0 , which is a problem (2.24.1 on maemo 5). In short, compile redshift for maemo 5, because libraries have entirely stilted versions of libraries
13:25.58Oksanaa/me goes to sleep; good time of day to everybody
13:26.09CatButtsbuh bye
13:26.11kerioLast Measured Discharge (LMD): 1240.7535 mAh
13:26.17keriocalibrated at max brightness
13:26.42kerio(200mA)
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13:34.32DocScrutinizer05kerio: wow
13:35.12DocScrutinizer05battery wear&tear: 5%
13:35.52DocScrutinizer05or nokia would say (N9) "battery health: 95%"
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13:49.10CatButtsvanishes into a cloud of farts
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14:56.04kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's a polarcell
14:59.25DocScrutinizer05aah those seem pretty good cells
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14:59.53CatButtshttp://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/mod-support/
15:00.05DocScrutinizer05though I got one (unknown history) as donation, and that was pretty much zombie
15:00.18CatButtswhere's the sourcecode for this so I can incessantly bitch if it's based on MikMod :P
15:00.30DocScrutinizer05huh?
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15:01.06DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/
15:01.22DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/mod-support/
15:01.46DocScrutinizer05don't bitch, help!
15:03.58CatButts>depends: gstreamer0.10-modplug (>= 0.10.13), libmodplug0c2 (>= 0.8.7), tracker-distutils, tracker-extractor-mod (>= 0.2)
15:04.05CatButtsah, phew
15:04.42CatButtsthough, I suppose libmodplug could be replaced with newer libopenmpt
15:05.00KotCzarnycatbutts: if you want module player, just use my oscp :P
15:05.13CatButtsI want a phone before hand
15:05.18KotCzarnybetter interface too
15:05.22KotCzarnyand works on pc
15:05.47CatButtswhen I got a phone and like it, I can start crafting
15:08.34KotCzarnywell, you can check the module player already
15:08.38KotCzarnymaybe you will like it
15:09.13CatButtsdoes it have plugin arhitecture?
15:09.29KotCzarnyyes, but not exposed
15:09.45KotCzarnyie. i've tried to make it monolithic, no depps, file hassle etc
15:09.51KotCzarnyone file to play them all
15:10.12CatButtsoh
15:10.29CatButtsso to add plugin, you have to recompile whole player, yes?
15:10.49KotCzarnyyes, but it already plays more than you might need
15:11.48CatButts>uade integrated
15:11.49CatButtsneat
15:13.29KotCzarnyand i prefer libxmp over libmodplug
15:15.20CatButtsI am contemplating making a tracker on PC for some obscure music format whose replayer I got my grubby paws on(read, reversing)
15:15.42CatButtshaving a tiny device to conveniently carry around and have that tool on is also a plus
15:15.46KotCzarnyformat name?
15:15.56CatButtsJaytrax/Syntrax
15:16.13KotCzarnynever heard of
15:16.39CatButtsI met it on Symbian as Syntrax
15:17.07CatButtscould never use tracker properly because it was S60v3 app running on S60v5
15:17.15CatButtsv3 is keys, v5 is touch
15:17.28CatButtsSyntrax used virtual, key-controlled mouse
15:18.53CatButtsso that's two levels of unusability, stacked
15:20.19CatButtsthen I found a flash port of the replayer, and my slightly unhealthy penchant for this tool grew from that moment forward :P
15:22.56CatButtsI took it apart, cleaned and bugfixed, eventually ported back to C, where it awaits me getting off my arse and building a tracker
15:23.30CatButtsoh, one important detail about the n900 I need to know
15:23.36CatButtsfloat and double support
15:24.14CatButtsfor the CPU
15:24.58KotCzarnycortex-a8
15:27.06CatButtshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A8#Features
15:27.09CatButts>VFP
15:27.10CatButtsyes
15:27.45CatButtsdouble too
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20:16.32KotCzarny[   14.368233] sunxidrm: exports duplicate symbol dsi_dcs_rd (owned by kernel)
20:17.39KotCzarnynot a stellar code quality
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20:56.35DocScrutinizer05thinks that in 90% of cases where they are used, floats are used for no good reason at all and you'd be *way* better of using uint32
20:56.43DocScrutinizer05err int32
20:56.52CatButtshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJn39Tt8EJo unrelated
20:58.14DocScrutinizer05...you'd be *way* better off using int32 or even int64
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21:07.32kerioDocScrutinizer05: what if i'm doing numerical analysis :<
21:07.43keriowell i don't use float32
21:07.48kerioonly poor people do that
21:10.49DocScrutinizer05sorry, I can't take you serious. You got to know what datatype you need for which problem to solve. I just can say that floats of all kinds more often than not are used out of mere laziness or incompetence, and then impose a massive workload on CPU/FPU for no reason, while same time usually even introducing errors to your algo since many coders don't grok that you never compare floats for equality
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21:17.25keriowell if you're doing any differential equation solving you want floats of some kind
21:17.52kerioand it's almost always doubles if you're running on a cpu or float32 if you're coding for a gpu
21:18.06keriounless you're seriously constrained in space, or something
21:18.44DocScrutinizer05so?
21:19.33keriowhy would anyone actually use floats when dealing with ints, anyway?
21:19.51DocScrutinizer05huh?
21:20.32CatButtsa kind of a vague question
21:20.32CatButtsbut
21:21.14CatButtsrough estimate, how much would be saved in heavy computations when using floats instead of doubles
21:21.36DocScrutinizer05355
21:21.44CatButtsI realize this answer depends on the CPU
21:22.01kerioCatButts: you save on memory access
21:22.06keriobut you actually *add* overhead on the cpu
21:22.12DocScrutinizer05and on the actual type of "heavy calculation"
21:22.37keriounless you're doing vectorized operations perhaps
21:22.59keriobut modern CPUs will actually convert the floats to long doubles to operate on them, internally
21:23.21DocScrutinizer05OMAP3 is no "modern CPU"
21:23.40kerioyeah i wonder how the FPU operates
21:24.00DocScrutinizer05slow ;-)
21:24.11DocScrutinizer05and energy hungry
21:25.02kerioapparently the FPU on the omap3 is optimized for single precision floats
21:25.27ShadowJKI guess it depends on whether you use vfp or neon.. I forget if omap3 has both, but I think it does?
21:25.38kerioah yes
21:25.41kerioneon is fp32
21:25.57CatButtswhere does Cortex A8 stand?
21:26.01CatButtsoh
21:26.05CatButts>vf3
21:26.07CatButts>vfp
21:26.09CatButts>vfp3
21:26.21ShadowJKAnd in theory you're able to execute neon and regular arm in parallell, though they share the same decoder
21:27.04CatButtswhat if I just replace all the float/double math with int and bit magic
21:27.07CatButtshahahahahaha
21:35.02kerioi wonder what's going to be the first portable device with a nvidia pascal gpu
21:35.15DocScrutinizer05then your calculations will speed up significantly
21:35.29ShadowJKa laptop, for certain definitions of "portable"
21:35.55ShadowJKPascal will show up in tegra too eventually, though nobody is using Tegra for portable devices anymore
21:35.59CatButtsso you're telling me to go ahead with replacing float math with int math and bit magic?
21:36.01DocScrutinizer05hi ShadowJK, long time no see
21:36.05ShadowJKhello
21:36.05kerioi want a lappy with a desktop gtx 1080 :<
21:36.06CatButtsuhllo
21:36.24ShadowJKI have a laptop with the equivalent of desktop gtx 970
21:36.36ShadowJK(gtx 980m)
21:36.50kerioDocScrutinizer05: 7W when idling is totally fine right
21:37.13ShadowJKkerio, they made laptops with desktop gtx 980, so why not :)
21:37.15DocScrutinizer05kerio: please don't ask me such questions that nobody can answer
21:37.30kerioShadowJK: surely the equivalent of a desktop gtx 970 is a gtx 970
21:37.36keriowhich is a thing that they did put in laptops
21:37.57DocScrutinizer05for a Boing 747 a 7W in idling are great
21:38.19kerioand it's only 173W average when on load
21:38.20ShadowJKMy house idles at about 150W
21:38.31DocScrutinizer05for your average car it's probably already on the heavy side
21:38.35keriooh so slightly less than a gtx 1080 :D
21:38.47keriosurely we can fit a gtx 1080 in the neo900 somehow
21:39.27DocScrutinizer05I'd rather try to fit 3 Neo900 into a GTX1080
21:39.45kerioa gtx 1080 can probably emulate 3 neo900s
21:40.02DocScrutinizer05not probably
21:40.18keriowell, gpus are pretty bad at normal computing stuff
21:40.33DocScrutinizer05nope, that depends
21:40.35kerioand you've got a bunch of different processors running at different clock speeds
21:40.54kerioemulating a super nintendo *accurately* takes about 3ghz of a normal modern CPU :D
21:42.58keriobut yeah a gtx 1080 can probably bruteforce the shit out of an omap3 emulator and get out fine
21:43.15DocScrutinizer05>>install base obviously<<?
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