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| 00:02.45 | Oksanaa | What the?.. libfontconfig1 from wheezy requires sysvinit-utils, which conflicts upstart. Why would libfontconfig1 require sysvinit-utils, anyway? |
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| 00:25.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | good question |
| 00:26.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | aversion against systemd? ;-) |
| 00:26.52 | Oksanaa | The difference in versions is small, 2.6.0 vs 2.9.0. And they should conflict systemd then, instead of locking onto sysv |
| 00:27.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, just kidding |
| 00:27.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | install it, breaking dependencies, then see what unmet dependevies show up during runtime |
| 00:28.30 | Oksanaa | how do I tell apt-get to ignore dependencies? ah, I know, aptitude |
| 00:28.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | --force? |
| 00:28.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 00:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly apt is not suited for that |
| 00:29.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | dpkg -i |
| 00:29.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | my uneducated guess would be it depends on started X11 or sth, which in turn brings in some sysv-init based handling scheme |
| 00:31.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe the explanation is as simple as "it comes with a startscript, to restore font settings during boot" |
| 00:31.42 | Oksanaa | dpkg -i requires having not only libfontcondig1, but all other dependencies of it? could be an option though... easier than dpkg -i easytag |
| 00:32.31 | Oksanaa | well, how did they handle it before? |
| 00:32.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | before what? |
| 00:33.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | (not that I had a faintest chance to answer that question) |
| 00:33.14 | Oksanaa | libfontconfig 2.6.0 is on maemo, no problems. it's 2.9.0 from wheezy which is problematic |
| 00:33.24 | Oksanaa | libfontconfig1* |
| 00:34.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah, you mean "how is it handled by genuine maemo fontconfig?" |
| 00:35.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I guess it has some patches so it gets started by upstart or even by X11, or dunno what they did |
| 00:35.22 | Oksanaa | what?.. sysvinit-utils 2.86.ds1-60maemo1 |
| 00:36.04 | Oksanaa | aptitude thinks that downgrading solves everything mp-fremantle-community-pr [21.2011.38-1Tmaemo11+thumb0 (community-thumb, now) -> 20.2010.36-2maemo8 (fremantle)] |
| 00:37.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I pass |
| 00:39.10 | Oksanaa | of course, it involves removing way too many packages (including mediaplayer) so not acceptable |
| 00:39.55 | Oksanaa | trying aptitude install libfontconfig1 |
| 00:40.38 | Oksanaa | I guess that getting easytag to work may in the end require porting it to maemo |
| 00:41.11 | Oksanaa | just because of its way-too-many dependencies |
| 00:49.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, when easytag is some GUI program... |
| 00:49.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | never heard of it |
| 00:51.14 | Oksanaa | it's gtk+ program, without python, and depends on id3lib which is already on maemo, for tag editing. and somebody seriously overcomplicated its dependencies list |
| 00:51.37 | Oksanaa | aka mussorgsky, only without python or mutagen |
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| 03:51.12 | Oksana | It's painful. Libfontconfig1>fontconfig-config>ucf, and still cannot understand what's going on |
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| 04:12.46 | fishbulb | how many poeple are actually buying a neo900 ? |
| 04:14.42 | fishbulb | and is the hope that a new userbase will come along and create software for it? |
| 04:15.07 | fishbulb | or the existing stuff will be ported or what |
| 04:16.19 | luke-jr | fishbulb: AFAIK the point of the Neo900 design using an ancient SoC is to maintain N900 compatibility |
| 04:16.36 | luke-jr | but DocScrutinizer05 would be the one to ask |
| 04:16.49 | luke-jr | personally, I'm going with Pyra |
| 04:17.40 | fishbulb | there's no way I'm buying a neo900, or basically any phone, I'm just wondering what that project has as goals and expectations |
| 04:18.21 | fishbulb | the board was old when that project started |
| 04:19.45 | fishbulb | how much is the pyra |
| 04:20.32 | fishbulb | the pandora was ludicrously expensive and there are only 3d renderings of the pyra |
| 04:21.37 | luke-jr | fishbulb: no, there are prototypes of the Pyra too |
| 04:21.45 | luke-jr | https://www.pyra-handheld.com/wiki/index.php?title=Comparison_Chart |
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| 04:37.06 | Oksana | fishbulb: Generally, it's hoped that old users of N900 will migrate to Neo900 (when N900 devices disintegrate with time) and new people will join the community due to lack of dev-oriented (like, with hardware keyboard) phones; privacy-conscious (and paranoid) people also do not have much choice in modern market, and may come to get Neo900 and-or Pyra in order to have control over cellular modem. |
| 04:37.54 | Oksana | ~fptf |
| 04:37.54 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 04:38.22 | Oksana | ^ That's about porting (and upgrading?) old software to new hardware |
| 04:39.27 | fishbulb | this is kind of worse than even a kickstarter |
| 04:40.38 | fishbulb | basically all kickstarters fail becuase mass production isn't the same as making a few prototypes, at 900 euro or whatever, I could buy... a car? a flagship device, and root it, install debian and whatever else I wanted... or that |
| 04:41.33 | fishbulb | in saying so, I still use an n900, but LOTS of them were made by nokia, and ALL of them passed nokia's build quality standards, then were supported for a while |
| 04:42.26 | fishbulb | it would be good if more people were able to be objective about their projects. |
| 04:48.17 | Oksana | It's objective. Neither Nokia or Microsoft are going to support N900. Community still updates software for N900. And the team ports this software to Neo900. |
| 04:49.24 | Oksana | Build quality standard is excellent, have a look at Openmoko aka GTA04 (if I remember correctly) to know the build quality. Made in Germany, by the way. |
| 04:50.57 | Oksana | Not all flagship devices are root-able, and even those which support multi-boot, will hardly have the same thought put into them. The same ability to monitor modem transmissions, and power down the modem on user's request. And isolation of modem from other parts of the system. |
| 04:52.20 | Oksana | There is also thought put into overcoming nokia's known issues, such as some SIM-related-chip separating from motherboard and requiring hot-air to make it work again |
| 04:56.04 | Oksana | And don't get me started on sensors. Pressure, temperature and humidity; stylus detector (to avoid losing stylus)... |
| 05:03.16 | Oksana | Add to that debugging-LEDs... http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900/2014-11-10#10793995 |
| 05:03.33 | Oksana | fishbulb ? |
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| 05:52.04 | fishbulb | I carried a giant slow cooker to the place I bought it from, exchanged it, bought groceries and walked back |
| 05:53.32 | fishbulb | I dunno. I have more than a few n900's |
| 05:53.52 | fishbulb | one has a broken usb port, and it's 8 years later |
| 05:55.32 | fishbulb | the other has a failing usb port, one has a keyboard that's pretty worn, zero of those issues you said I've ever experienced, several other people didn't either who got theirs roughly the same time as mine |
| 05:56.23 | fishbulb | if I have to replace this phone, I wouldn't spend 1/20 of the neo900 price |
| 05:58.28 | fishbulb | I've never broken a usb port either, I have dropped one device in a toilet though |
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| 06:37.34 | Oksana | Well, I do not remember exactly about usb port, but I am sure something is done about it, too. Just not sure what... |
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| 08:13.35 | fishbulb | what does a pyra cost? |
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| 09:08.09 | fishbulb | hey my tablet doesn't support adhoc wifi connections |
| 09:08.24 | fishbulb | adhoc is the only sort the n900 can make |
| 09:08.38 | KotCzarny | use usb? |
| 09:08.38 | fishbulb | is there another way of connecting data to a nexus 7 |
| 09:08.48 | fishbulb | use usb how |
| 09:09.53 | fishbulb | I don't think anything portable supports adhoc |
| 09:10.05 | fishbulb | can a bluetooth tether work |
| 09:10.13 | KotCzarny | yes, bt will work |
| 09:10.16 | KotCzarny | ~bt |
| 09:10.16 | infobot | bt sux0rs. Bhutan |
| 09:10.22 | KotCzarny | ~pan |
| 09:10.22 | infobot | rumour has it, pan is https://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN |
| 09:10.42 | fishbulb | what exactly sux? |
| 09:11.41 | fishbulb | ok that's a lot of bollocks I don't want to do |
| 09:11.51 | fishbulb | not right now at least. |
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| 12:46.12 | r00t|home | fishbulb: i used to do ppp over rfcomm over bluetooth between an android and my n900... but it's also manually set up |
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| 13:17.19 | ceene | modest breaks itself sometime |
| 13:18.04 | ceene | after receiving maybe a bad formatted email, or maybe just a strangely (but standard compliant) email, it starts not knowing what an email is |
| 13:18.26 | ceene | breaking headers, not being able to show the content, mistaking subject with sender or recipient... general parsing errors all over the place |
| 13:18.40 | ceene | ah, it's been in fact after receiving a linux-kernel mailing list email |
| 13:18.48 | ceene | so i don't reckon it's misformated |
| 13:18.58 | ceene | just a long email with lots of different headers or whatever |
| 13:19.17 | ceene | i'm getting a bit tired of the limitations of maemo |
| 13:19.49 | r00t|home | i know such behaviour of modest... |
| 13:19.59 | r00t|home | also it uses that silly binary storage format |
| 13:20.13 | r00t|home | sometimes you just have to erase the storage to make it work again |
| 13:20.33 | r00t|home | and supposedly it's opensource, but isn't... or something... so it can't be fixed |
| 13:21.44 | ceene | i think we deserve a decent email client |
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| 13:39.09 | r00t|home | ceene: we deserve to write one for ourselves |
| 13:39.24 | r00t|home | you can just install sylpheed/claws... |
| 13:40.18 | ceene | they are only slightly better than modest, plus they don't have maemo integration so they must be running at all times, there's no notification on new email, can't use exchange... so it's just a workaround as useful as VNCing into a remote system to read email |
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| 14:07.08 | sunshavi | i use modest on n800. Never had have that issue |
| 14:09.57 | sunshavi | emacs+wanderlust+mbsync and You can get visual notification. If You have no problem with cli. Also mutt+mbsync could be an option |
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| 14:39.03 | Sicelo | modest is open source. fixable. |
| 14:52.12 | bencoh | does it use mbox? |
| 14:52.21 | bencoh | or some other format (maildir, mh ....)? |
| 14:52.36 | bencoh | because a malformated mbox could explain ceene's issues |
| 14:57.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think this should be simple to answer... *if* you got a modest running |
| 15:00.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks like maildir |
| 15:00.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | but only 'looks like', I didn't verify it actually is |
| 15:01.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:01.05 | bencoh | anyway, not mbox |
| 15:01.13 | bencoh | so prolly not what I was thinking about |
| 15:01.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | still it could use a mbox or even database in the end |
| 15:03.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh yeah, and then there was this (look closely) /home/user/.modest/cache/mail/maildir/media/mmc1/.modest/local_folders |
| 15:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | media/mmc1 makes me wonder what happens to your mail when the uSD goes south |
| 15:05.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:06.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | summary.mmap in same dir |
| 15:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | which looks like it's a great candidate for any sort of corruption |
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| 17:20.50 | r00t|home | <DocScrutinizer05> summary.mmap in same dir |
| 17:20.56 | r00t|home | that was what i meant |
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| 17:45.26 | ceene | i've erased .modest/cache and made it sync |
| 17:45.44 | ceene | and it's synced with the same kind of corruption |
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| 17:49.24 | Pali | merlin1991: ping |
| 17:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: https://www.heinlein-support.de/blog/news/gmx-de-und-web-de-haben-mail-rejects-durch-spf/ |
| 17:55.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: modsest was known to have parse errors on mails that are a little "creative" with structure |
| 17:56.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno how much of that got fixed in CSSU |
| 17:57.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: relevant for all @maemo.org email aliases aiui |
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| 18:02.24 | ceene | is there another directory besides .modest? |
| 18:05.12 | ceene | or related to MfE |
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| 18:14.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: see the links implied in the */cache/* pathnames. There must be one on uSD and most likely another one on MyDocs |
| 18:15.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I recall in PR1.1 times a simple mail with photo attachment "sent from my iphone" broke modest fubar |
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| 18:25.28 | ceene | in cache dir, mails are stored in maildir format, i.e., each mail on its own file |
| 18:25.44 | ceene | however, one message corrupts visualization for all |
| 18:25.52 | ceene | and it gets that way forever |
| 18:26.10 | ceene | even if all messages are deleted, new ones will appear corrupted |
| 18:26.44 | ceene | doesn't make any sense |
| 18:27.37 | Pali | SPF is just one big shit and only retarded people can use it |
| 18:28.15 | Pali | and DMARC is another nonsense created by disabled people |
| 18:29.21 | Pali | those disabled people behind workig group have disabled their brains |
| 18:33.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | <GMX service dude on a conf of big mailhoster admins quite a while ago> âJa, SPF geht nicht, wir machen es aber trotzdem!â |
| 18:35.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | which basically translates into "we pursue other sneaky purposes than spam filtering with SPF" |
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| 19:18.43 | sixwheeledbeast | Ok so for future reference when I search these logs about mafw-lastfm eating CPU issue. Seems I have to log out on ALL devices to clear the cache. As well as rm ~/.osso/mafw-lastfm* :rolleyes: |
| 19:26.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow |
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| 19:32.46 | warfare | DocScrutinizer05: maemo.org has a valid SPF record. |
| 19:37.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm yeah, but when somebody sends a mail to Iforward@maemo.org form I-hafe-SPF-minus-all@someprovider.org... |
| 19:37.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it gets forwarded to any gmx or web.de account by maemo.org |
| 19:38.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: ^^^ |
| 19:38.53 | warfare | DocScrutinizer05: Yes, then it's broken. And there is nothing we can do about it. |
| 19:38.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 19:39.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | just maybe check the aliases for gmx/webde forwards |
| 19:39.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are prone to fail sooner rather than later |
| 19:40.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | possibly inform the recipients aka owners of those gmx/web accounts |
| 19:42.59 | warfare | I'll check that. |
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| 21:48.39 | bencoh | warfare: actually there *is* something you can do about ... change the way you forward mails |
| 21:49.00 | bencoh | rewrite the smtp envelop (MAIL FROM) instead of passing it as-is |
| 21:49.15 | bencoh | (note that I'm talking about the MAIL FROM, not the From:) |
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| 23:01.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | this however requires new infra, the currently used tools probably are not designed to do that |
| 23:02.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly the return path is something to think about when doing this |
| 23:09.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty much a layman about that whole SMTP et al stuff, but the guy writing https://www.heinlein-support.de/blog/news/gmx-de-und-web-de-haben-mail-rejects-durch-spf/ seems to be an expert and he thinks SPF is "broken by design and BS". Even more notheworthy the GMX guy himself says "Yes, **SPF doesn't work** but nevertheless we'll do it". The alternatives explained in that article seem sound to me, particularly DKIM |
| 23:12.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.heinlein-support.de/vortrag/spf-dkim-greylisting-der-neue-spamschutz |
| 23:28.15 | bencoh | DKIM isn't any better ... |
| 23:28.33 | bencoh | it notoriously breaks other parts of the mail ecosystem |
| 23:28.48 | bencoh | not exactly mailing-lists-friendly for instance... |
| 23:29.08 | bencoh | iirc there is a kindof workaround for that but .... |
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