IRC log for #maemo on 20151011

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07:18.17freemangordon~flashing
07:18.17infobotsomebody said maemo-flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh
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09:48.28DocScrutinizer05hmm, got a device here that asks for lockcode *after* flashing
09:48.47DocScrutinizer05:-S
09:49.01KotCzarnyremoving lock code is easy
09:49.21DocScrutinizer05~lockcode
09:49.21infoboti heard lockcode is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522
09:49.57DocScrutinizer05~factinfo lockcode
09:49.57infobotlockcode -- created by Termana <~bradley@123-3-161-191.static.dsl.dodo.com.au> at Thu Oct 28 11:44:48 2010 (1808 days); it has been requested 12 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 36s ago.
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11:05.19DocScrutinizer05hmm, rescueOS is pretty convenient
11:06.38DocScrutinizer05after finally telling network manager to STFU and leave alone the "modem"...
11:06.42DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo /sbin/ifconfig enp0s29u1u8i8 up
11:06.44DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo /sbin/ifconfig enp0s29u1u8i8 192.168.2.14 netmask 255.255.255.0
11:07.23DocScrutinizer05((FSCK avahi, FSCK new udev, FSCK L.P.!)
11:08.05DocScrutinizer05(do me a favor and try to memorize and type "enp0s29u1u8i8")
11:08.47DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> telnet -l user 192.168.2.15
11:08.49DocScrutinizer05Trying 192.168.2.15...
11:08.50DocScrutinizer05Connected to 192.168.2.15.
11:09.06DocScrutinizer05/rescueOS$ echo root:$(grep -A 13 lock_code /dev/mtd1|tail -1)
11:09.08DocScrutinizer05root:6sn86kTIscpP2
11:09.34DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo john -format:DES -i:digits old_maemo_lock_code
11:09.35DocScrutinizer05Loaded 1 password hash (Traditional DES [128/128 BS SSE2-16])
11:09.37DocScrutinizer0510557            (root)
11:09.38DocScrutinizer05guesses: 1  time: 0:00:00:00  c/s: 2479K  trying: 12599 - 11468
11:12.29DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/47517621
11:13.47jon_yDocScrutinizer05: is that horrible ethernet iface name on maemo?
11:14.14DocScrutinizer05on plain stock RPM linux (suse)
11:14.46jon_yoh, "linux"
11:14.52DocScrutinizer05I admit I didn't get around to uninstall that avahi crap
11:15.11jon_ypass net.ifnames=0 to fix the ethernet names
11:16.00jon_ypass it to the kernel args
11:18.48DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/13463036  http://paste.opensuse.org/24784814  http://paste.opensuse.org/51947437
11:18.55DocScrutinizer05jon_y: thanks!
11:19.47jon_yas far as I know "predictable" naming is pretty random
11:19.52DocScrutinizer05udev also started acting funny since a few years (since L.P. messed it up I guess)
11:20.08jon_yI'd rather ethernet names be referred by MAC address
11:20.28jon_yor even GUIDs like on Windows
11:20.46DocScrutinizer05I would be perfectly happy with sth like ttyACM0 or sth
11:21.23DocScrutinizer05or ethUSB0
11:21.25DocScrutinizer05or whatever
11:22.24jon_ywhat does enp0s29u1u8i8 even mean anyway
11:22.36jon_yis that your pci tree?
11:22.51DocScrutinizer05nfc
11:23.10DocScrutinizer05are you ex-NOK kernel jon_y?
11:23.34jon_ynope, I am working on the linux kernel for work
11:24.00DocScrutinizer05:-)
11:24.20jon_ywell everything on the desktop is somehow a PCI device
11:24.39jon_yeven though there are no physcal PCI slots
11:25.14DocScrutinizer05anyway, I guess I will prepare a "tiny" howto for rescueOS (which has a pretty flawed readme) and lockcode-unlocking
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11:26.31jon_ydoes rescueOS support ipv6?
11:27.11*** join/#maemo robink_ (~quassel@unaffilated/robink)
11:27.44DocScrutinizer05e.g in rescueOS it recommends >>flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0<< which is missing trailing " to start with, but also the file isn't called initrd.img but rescueOS-1.0.img
11:27.57DocScrutinizer05prolly not
11:28.02DocScrutinizer05dunno
11:28.21jon_yipv6 autoconfigured address is nice
11:28.23DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/NIN101_N900_rescue_os/nin101.uni.cx/n900-new/206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/
11:29.22DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/61440296
11:29.29DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/NIN101_N900_rescue_os/nin101.uni.cx/n900-new/206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/documentation.txt
11:30.13DocScrutinizer05then missing: login root rootme
11:30.50DocScrutinizer05(I was lucky to guess that one ;-D )
11:31.23DocScrutinizer05on 3rd try already
11:32.41DocScrutinizer05then it could use a warning to get your glasses or magnifier lens to read the 3PT on N900 ;-)
11:33.35DocScrutinizer05well, I guess that applies to old farts like me who can't read a newspaper closer than 1m from their eyes
11:33.57FIQor people with vision impairments
11:34.28DocScrutinizer05I *almost* can read rescueOS shell on N900 when looking at it from 80cm distance
11:35.06DocScrutinizer05stuff like "root login on pts/1" I can guess
11:35.35KotCzarnydoc, you are using old rescueos
11:35.39KotCzarnynewest is 1.2
11:35.40DocScrutinizer05kernel timestamps however look like [$$$$$$$$$$$$]
11:35.58DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: I'm aware
11:36.07KotCzarnyalso, on normal linux (slackware) it's usb0 interface
11:36.16KotCzarny(and usb1 etc)
11:36.25KotCzarnyeven with kernel 4.2 and current udev
11:36.25DocScrutinizer05your metrics of "normal"
11:37.08KotCzarnyhttp://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/
11:37.14DocScrutinizer05"normal" nowadays means "infested by poetterisms and general system cabal crap"
11:37.15KotCzarnythis is current one
11:37.16jon_y"normal" by hipster standards :V
11:37.37DocScrutinizer05~systemd
11:37.37infobotsystemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see https://devuan.org  http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
11:38.18jon_ythere was a april fools joke about forking glibc
11:38.20DocScrutinizer05~poettering
11:38.21infobot'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal
11:38.25jon_yI'm not so sure if it was a joke
11:38.41KotCzarnyjon_y: i wouldnt be surprised
11:38.44DocScrutinizer05ooooph, that's for sure no joke
11:39.14DocScrutinizer05it's 100% in line with general poetterism
11:39.16jon_yI'll wait for the day when C++ makes it into systemd
11:39.32jon_ywith glibc forked to use c++ with a "legacy C interface"
11:39.36KotCzarnythats too highlevel
11:39.46jon_ypssh, highlevel
11:39.55jon_ythey put a DNS server in it
11:39.56NIN101DocScrutinizer05: what is flawed about rescueOS readme and which suggestions do you have to make it better?
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11:39.57KotCzarnylets integrate systemd in efi or processors
11:40.09KotCzarnynin101: he was referring to the old file
11:40.09DocScrutinizer05hi NIN101 :-)
11:40.12KotCzarny1.0
11:40.38jon_yand thinking that falling back on google DNS is a good idea
11:40.54DocScrutinizer05NIN101: see [2015-10-11 Sun 13:27:44] <DocScrutinizer05> e.g in rescueOS it recommends >>flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0<< which is missing trailing " to start with, but also the file isn't called initrd.img but rescueOS-1.0.img    [2015-10-11 Sun 13:30:13] <DocScrutinizer05> then missing: login root rootme
11:41.02jon_y"but you have no DNS configured! Why not just use a well known DNS Server?"
11:41.05jon_yfuck that noise
11:41.28DocScrutinizer05NIN101: but I used an old version
11:41.31KotCzarnythere is no login on 1.2
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11:41.36KotCzarnyboots to shell
11:41.52DocScrutinizer05jon_y: OH YEAH 8.8.8.8
11:42.01DocScrutinizer05the idiocy of the century
11:42.18jon_ywhen there is no DNS, there is no DNS, don't jump to assumptions
11:42.37DocScrutinizer05exactly
11:42.52DocScrutinizer05but that's not what poettering and friends want linux to be
11:43.14DocScrutinizer05they want it to act as the frankenstein monster of windows and macintosh
11:43.37KotCzarnywindows was born to bring computing for computer illiterates
11:43.41DocScrutinizer05with everything just handled by 'wizards' and smart daemons
11:43.49KotCzarnyie. idiots
11:43.53jon_ythe curse of the "desktop OS"
11:44.53jon_yso I also heard network manager will screw up whatever preconfigure ethernet interface when it wakes up
11:45.07KotCzarnyit does that already i think
11:45.13jon_yas if it owns everything
11:45.17DocScrutinizer05I started to hate Poettering's work before I even knew there's a person called Poettering. I hated avahi and later PolypAudio and I thought "those are two piedces of crap they actually could be siblings"
11:45.39jon_ywhat does avahi do anyway?
11:45.40DocScrutinizer05turned out they are
11:45.52DocScrutinizer05"rendevouz"
11:45.56KotCzarny~wiki avahi
11:46.04jon_yupnp?
11:46.11DocScrutinizer05more than that
11:46.12jon_yoh zeroconf
11:46.16DocScrutinizer05zeroconf
11:46.18jon_yfuck you zcnf
11:46.23DocScrutinizer05yes!!!
11:46.36jon_yuse ipv6 like a red blooded man
11:47.37DocScrutinizer05it eas a maybe 10 years ago, I spent a whole afternoon to find out it was avahi who fucked up a perfectly working heterogeneous network
11:48.00DocScrutinizer05this was my first encounter with poetterisms
11:48.23DocScrutinizer05there I learned to hate all the stuff this guy forces into linux
11:48.41KotCzarnyhow come it gets accepted as a requirement?
11:49.15jon_yKotCzarny: becase "Desktop OS" nonsense
11:49.46KotCzarnyie. 'i cant configure my system and i need some automatic things that would do the magic for me' ?
11:50.02jon_yyes
11:50.25jon_ylearn to ping ff02::1, no need to zeroconf
11:50.35DocScrutinizer05hehe
11:50.37KotCzarny:)
11:51.02DocScrutinizer05learn about /etc/hosts (or whatever the equiv name on windows)
11:51.17KotCzarnywindoze stack is based on bsd's one
11:51.24jon_yC:\Windows\System32\drivers\hosts
11:51.30KotCzarnynope
11:51.34DocScrutinizer05nobody needs avahi to configure a LAN with 5 clients
11:51.41KotCzarnyits in c:\windows\system32\config\etc\hosts or something
11:51.42jon_yKotCzarny: crazy modified BSD
11:52.25KotCzarny<PROTECTED>
11:52.31KotCzarnywe both were close, hehe
11:53.11jon_yyeah C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts
11:53.44jon_ywell, Windows networking isn't exactly BSD compatible
11:53.55KotCzarnyalso, most home networks have router with dhcpd anyway
11:53.59KotCzarnyso no need for zeroconf
11:54.10jon_yread/write won't work on network sockets
11:54.23jon_ysince they are implemented entirely on different subsystems
11:54.48jon_ythe windows "C Library" isn't networking aware at all
11:55.06jon_y"The Internet? We don't need that!"
11:55.13jon_yeven on modern Windows
11:55.32jon_ynetworking is implemented on top of win32 APIs
11:55.50KotCzarnythey have .net, you know, people shouldnt be bothered by some pesky low level calls
11:56.13jon_yexcept that now you have no access to low level calls
11:56.28jon_yand your networking stack is more shit now
11:56.35jon_yno raw sockets etc
11:58.10DocScrutinizer05it's noteworthy that by todays standards it's incorrect to claim "maemo is debian based" - in fact it's now devuan-based rather than debian
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11:58.47KotCzarnyits debian(2009) based
11:58.49DocScrutinizer05IOW devuan is now what debian was before it turned to the dark side
11:59.03MaxdamantusIt's not even based on Debian from 2009.
11:59.14KotCzarnyalso, nokia did few "desktop os" things to it
11:59.15MaxdamantusThe core packages are completely independent of the Debian system.
11:59.18DocScrutinizer05it's based on debian from 2005 or something
11:59.23MaxdamantusIt's not.
11:59.27DocScrutinizer05it is
11:59.43MaxdamantusThe people at Nokia/Trolltech/whatever put together the core packages themselves, they're not from the Debian project.
11:59.47DocScrutinizer05no matter how often you quote changelogs
11:59.59DocScrutinizer05BWAHAHAHA
12:00.32DocScrutinizer05suuuure, Nokia invented their own libc
12:01.09MaxdamantusNo. It's still using glibc, just as Debian, Gentoo, ArchLinux, etc do.
12:01.22Maxdamantusbut like all of those, Nokia put together their own source package for it.
12:01.31Maxdamantusit doesn't come from Debian.
12:01.43DocScrutinizer05so what? that is what every distro does
12:01.52MaxdamantusUbuntu doesn't.
12:01.57DocScrutinizer05aha!
12:02.05MaxdamantusUbuntu just uses a fork of Debian's distribution.
12:02.34DocScrutinizer05we been there and you failed to grok that ubuntu isn't even linux, according to *your* arguments and rationale
12:03.04jon_yUbuntu is pretty alien to me alright
12:03.08MaxdamantusNo. We've been there and you've shown that you're simply silly.
12:03.14jon_yeven after using Linux close to a decade
12:03.23KotCzarnyok, it all matters, did they use debian based distro then modified, or just used debian packaging tools and packaged things themselves
12:03.36MaxdamantusKotCzarny: the latter.
12:04.09bencohI'm not completely sure about that either
12:04.25MaxdamantusYou can check by doing things like `apt-get source libc`
12:04.33DocScrutinizer05and?
12:04.38MaxdamantusThe changelog just has a few entries from some people at Nokia.
12:04.46DocScrutinizer05again CHANGELOG
12:04.52DocScrutinizer05fuck the changelog!
12:05.16jon_ynobody writes Changelogs anymore :)
12:05.21KotCzarnyi do
12:05.24KotCzarny:)
12:05.25DocScrutinizer05this is not linux since it has no changelog reaching back to minix
12:05.25jon_yuse git log instead
12:05.33MaxdamantusYou basically have to write a changelog in Debian packages afaict.
12:05.45MaxdamantusIt's part of the formal format.
12:05.53DocScrutinizer05so what?
12:06.01jon_ywhen logs become mandatory, it will read "banana banana banana:
12:06.05jon_y"
12:06.15KotCzarnyand: "another banana nana"
12:06.38DocScrutinizer05when I import a source and check it in to my own git, you say it's not linux anymore since it lacks changelog history
12:07.31MaxdamantusDocScrutinizer05: if you have evidence that they copied the Debian distribution of glibc, you can show it if you want.
12:07.42*** join/#maemo zama (~zama@unaffiliated/stryx/x-3871776)
12:07.42DocScrutinizer05Maxdamantus: you constantly bitch over changelog but fail to prove that Nokia maemo sources are actually _not_ a simple fork of debian
12:07.53MaxdamantusDocScrutinizer05: afaict, they just started with the GNU distribution.
12:07.57bencohthey have their own patches
12:08.45DocScrutinizer05bencoh: sure they do, that's why they made maemo
12:08.50bencoh(like the memcopy/neon implem that was merged later)
12:09.09KotCzarnybencoh, yes, but in the start, did they took some already made os and hacked it, or pieced things together one by one
12:09.42DocScrutinizer05that however doesn't mean maemo is based on RTos or some weird shit Nokia invented. It's clearly based on debian
12:09.58jon_ySymbian OS :)
12:10.24DocScrutinizer05proof: people use glibc patches from upstream
12:10.45*** join/#maemo louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-130-65.seas-nve.net)
12:10.59bencohas far as I can tell, they took a plateform, replaced (and/or patched ) a lot of things (including core packages) and added their own layers on top
12:11.25MaxdamantusWhich things did they keep?
12:11.31DocScrutinizer05if maemo glibc was actually "invented by Nokia" like Maxdamantus claims, those patches never could fit
12:11.46MaxdamantusDocScrutinizer05: I've never claimed that. Stop being ridiculous.
12:12.02MaxdamantusIf DocScrutinizer05 stops beating his wife, he'd be a better person.
12:12.07KotCzarny+1
12:12.18*** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
12:12.24*** kick/#maemo [Maxdamantus!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg] by DocScrutinizer05 (T900: "User terminated!")
12:12.27*** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ
12:12.28bencohwtf
12:12.36bencohwtf both of you.
12:13.15jon_yDocScrutinizer05: the right reply is "wife beating is legal in my district" as the kick message :)
12:13.29DocScrutinizer05:-D
12:13.37bencoh>_<
12:13.38KotCzarnydistrict 11
12:13.55DocScrutinizer05s/leagl/mandatory/
12:14.04*** join/#maemo Maxdamantus (~Maxdamant@unaffiliated/maxdamantus)
12:18.32DocScrutinizer05it's quite obvious and undisputed that maemo5 is based on mameo4 which is based on maemo3...
12:19.07MaxdamantusIndeed, the changelogs for the core packages go back to 2006.
12:19.46Maxdamantusas opposed to 1997 or something, when the Debian packages started.
12:20.24DocScrutinizer05why would debian be a milestone? they based on slackware iirc
12:21.01*** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p4FD1D248.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
12:21.06DocScrutinizer05so debian isn't linux since they don't have changelogs explaining what they copied?
12:21.11MaxdamantusBecause the Debian project is what created the Debian packages.
12:21.32DocScrutinizer05and maemo is what created the maemo packages
12:21.42MaxdamantusExactly. You've got it.
12:21.45DocScrutinizer05that's an extremely silly argument
12:23.00MaxdamantusAt least it is an argument. I'm not sure what yours is.
12:23.39Maxdamantus"Debian is Gentoo and Gentoo is GNU, which is also Linus Torvalds and Maemo"
12:23.47DocScrutinizer05well, stick with your definition of "is based on". I'm not interested, and I guess 99% of maemo users aren't either
12:24.21MaxdamantusIt's important because it's the reason you can't just install Debian packages on Maemo.
12:24.32DocScrutinizer05aha, I can
12:24.33MaxdamantusEven if you go back to Debian from 2006.
12:25.32MaxdamantusYou're probably either doing something other than "installing Debian packages on Maemo", or you're doing something that will easily induce incompatibility.
12:25.58Maxdamantussleeps.
12:26.01DocScrutinizer05not intereested
12:26.16MaxdamantusOf course not. That's why you don't get into these arguments.
12:26.41DocScrutinizer05isn't it *you* who always starts this nonsense shit?
12:27.33DocScrutinizer05common sense is: maemo is based on debian. You like to disagree, we have all heard this. Now please keep it at that
12:29.27DocScrutinizer05if you have something *contructive* to contribute that actually points out problems maemo users/debels may run into, and you did proper investigation on how to *solve* those problems, please speak up. Otherwise I don't see what's your point, other than trolling
12:30.14keriomaemo is based on debian like ubuntu is based on debian
12:30.22DocScrutinizer05exactly
12:30.34kerioand you can't necessarily expect to install a debian package on ubuntu or viceversa and have it work flawlessly
12:30.57DocScrutinizer05not all of them, but quite a few will work nevertheless
12:31.17jon_ywell, not expected to work, ymmv
12:31.32DocScrutinizer05not expected, ok
12:32.06DocScrutinizer05nevertheless I even installed binaries from ubuntu on OpenSuse and they worked
12:32.20jon_yagain ymmv
12:32.24DocScrutinizer05sure
12:32.34jon_yas long as they use the same ABI, it would work
12:32.38jon_ybut no guarantees
12:32.44DocScrutinizer05:nod:
12:32.56bencohwhich we dont (hf vs sf)
12:33.17jon_ylike using a different bullet for your different chambered guns :)
12:33.23DocScrutinizer05the term "based on" is not very clearly defined, and obviously everybody implies other properties that shall come with it
12:33.33jon_ykind of work, but might explode the chamber instead
12:34.40jon_yheh, you can claim grub is based on DOS, since it boots on x86 too
12:35.05DocScrutinizer05soinstead of fighting battles about whether Y is based on X, we rather should discuss properties and problems of Y
12:36.52DocScrutinizer05e.g. "patches for X also apply to Y, unless the patches subsystem is unique to Y" would be such a topic that _really_ sheds some light on the topic. Particularly when listing the incompatible subsystems
12:38.53DocScrutinizer05e.g. nobody will doubt debian recent is based on debian_3_y_o, yet you can't expect old stuff to run on new debian
12:39.34DocScrutinizer05and for sure you can't  expect new stuff to run on old debian
12:40.16DocScrutinizer05so "based on" is prolly a rather useless classification
12:40.27KotCzarnyall those arguments are silly, all that matters in linux is kernel abi and compatible libs
12:40.53KotCzarnyand lately systemd and (un)friends mad another distinction
12:41.12KotCzarny*made
12:41.26DocScrutinizer05what matters is: devuan packages have an almost 100% chance to run on maemo OOTB (after compiling them in scratchbox). This however does NOT apply for recent debian packages anymore
12:41.52KotCzarnyyou wont run debian packages compiled with glibc newer than 2.5
12:41.57KotCzarnymissing symbols etc
12:42.20DocScrutinizer05please re-read
12:42.34KotCzarnyhmm
12:42.47KotCzarnydependencies?
12:42.54jon_yrecompiled
12:42.55KotCzarnyor different packaging tools?
12:43.52DocScrutinizer05systemd?
12:44.12KotCzarnyso, for example, i cant use any package?
12:44.17KotCzarnyeven ntpdate?
12:44.40jon_yoh right systemd expects /bin and /usr/bin to be on the same volume
12:44.54DocScrutinizer05ntpdate recently got assimilated by systemd. No? Then it will be next month
12:44.59jon_yworks if you have a giant partition setuo
12:45.02jon_y*setup
12:45.28jon_ysudo already kind of got assimilated
12:45.40KotCzarnyhehe, i've read 'assassinated'
12:45.42jon_yuses su anyway
12:46.07jon_ynone of that docker container nonsense
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12:48.02keriomeh, fuck linux
12:48.05keriorecently moved to freebsd
12:48.20keriowill not move back
12:48.47DocScrutinizer05kerio: you allow systemd cabal to steal linux and run with it?
12:48.58keriowell
12:49.10kerioat some point the realization that freebsd has always been better than linux hit me
12:49.27DocScrutinizer05hmm, can't argue that
12:49.34DocScrutinizer05might be right
12:49.57jon_yfreeBSD is nice, but I will only move it goes GPLv3+ :)
12:49.58kerioit might just be the fun of using something new, mind you
12:50.32jon_ywell, I actually like the gnu userland
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12:50.52jon_yand proper driver support
12:52.20DocScrutinizer05for sure *BSD are the "better" UNIX
12:52.33KotCzarnyfreebsd is nice, but isnt suitable for personal os much
12:53.21kerioyeah, openbsd is a lot better, it's got X preinstalled :>
12:53.43DocScrutinizer05ratings like "better" are again sth very fuzzy and need specification which properties are used for evaluation
12:54.11kerioalso, freebsd has zfs
12:54.18kerioliterally anything else pales in comparisong
12:54.20kerio*comparison
12:54.23KotCzarny:)_
12:54.30KotCzarnyyeah
12:54.30kerio(as long as you can actually use your drives)
12:55.04DocScrutinizer05"it's better *since*..." is arguing the wrong way around. 1. define what's important for you, 2. evaluate which OS fulfills those requirements best
12:55.29KotCzarny1/ hardware support (ie. graphics card, peripherials etc)
12:55.51KotCzarnyi know, you can use vesa with almost anything
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12:55.59KotCzarnybut it's a bit of pain
12:59.34DocScrutinizer05for me the requirements are: a) fully open and tangible by user, based on UNIX principles  b) userbase as huge as possible  -- a) rules out redmond crap, b) leaves linux
12:59.56DocScrutinizer05btw a) also rules out poetterux
13:00.42DocScrutinizer05aka lennux
13:01.16DocScrutinizer05it's a shame I'm still on OpenSuse
13:02.22KotCzarnyi've tried suse once
13:02.35KotCzarnyi dont remember if i even finished installing
13:03.02DocScrutinizer05well, I'm lazy and don't ever even upgrade lightly. And I don't want to switch to XY now, only to learn in 6 months that it also went poettering
13:03.08DocScrutinizer05so I wait for devuan
13:03.40DocScrutinizer05how could you abort installation?
13:03.56DocScrutinizer05it's pretty much a one-click thing
13:03.59KotCzarnyi just got fed with it and installed something else
13:04.12KotCzarnymind you, it was suse, not opensuse
13:04.16KotCzarny(long time ago)
13:04.21kerioDocScrutinizer05: install freebsd!
13:04.25kerioit's fun
13:04.33kerioand really quick
13:04.34WizzupDocScrutinizer05: you can already use devuan now
13:04.40DocScrutinizer05too small userbase to warrant decent support
13:04.56KotCzarnyerm, freebsd is quite popular
13:05.02KotCzarnyjust not with desktop lusers
13:05.24DocScrutinizer05well, this is a workstation, not a server or some toy
13:05.36Wizzupfreebsd is not a toy os
13:05.45DocScrutinizer05for some it is
13:05.46KotCzarnyit can be used as a desktop os
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13:06.49DocScrutinizer05and while I usually find a linux version of proprietary tools I need, I hardly ever seen any commercial company offering those tools in a *BSD variant
13:07.09DocScrutinizer05s/usually/sometimes, when lucky,/
13:07.15KotCzarnyyou can use linux binaries in freebsd
13:07.24KotCzarny(i think it has some compatibility)
13:07.41DocScrutinizer05hardly
13:08.30KotCzarnyFreeBSD provides 32-bit binary compatibility with Linux®, allowing users to install and run most 32-bit Linux® binaries on a FreeBSD system without having to first modify the binary. It has even been reported that, in some situations, 32-bit Linux® binaries perform better on FreeBSD than they do on Linux®.
13:08.31KotCzarnyHowever, some Linux®-specific operating system features are not supported under FreeBSD. For example, Linux® binaries will not work on FreeBSD if they overly use i386™ specific calls, such as enabling virtual 8086 mode. In addition, 64-bit Linux® binaries are not supported at this time
13:08.38KotCzarnyhttps://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/linuxemu.html
13:08.58DocScrutinizer05I had lots of fun 2 weeks ago with installing a tool made for ubuntu linux on my OpenSuse. I don't think I'd be anywhere now when I had tried to install same tool under freeBSD
13:09.00keriothe linux emulator is very limited
13:09.16kerioDocScrutinizer05: you could be surprised actually
13:10.40DocScrutinizer05I got no time to play with that. As mentioned this is a workstation, not a toy
13:12.01DocScrutinizer05if you want to give it a try, for the laugh: http://www.silego.com/softdoc/software.html
13:14.20KotCzarny<PROTECTED>
13:14.25KotCzarnyhehe
13:14.31KotCzarny(requirements)
13:14.48DocScrutinizer05hm?
13:15.00KotCzarnydoes it use opengl for somerendering or what?
13:15.10DocScrutinizer05nfc
13:15.27DocScrutinizer05it's using Qt afaik
13:15.55KotCzarnymaybe it's qt reqs then
13:16.09kerioyou could run the windows version in wine :>
13:17.07DocScrutinizer05THAT I didn't try yet. Tried virtualbox etc (where the 128MB video requirement was a helpful info) but in the end gave up on it and ran it generically
13:17.17DocScrutinizer05err genuine
13:17.29bencohthey've got bhyve now (freebsd) <3
13:17.52DocScrutinizer05it still segfaults on file requester open, for "open..." and "save as..." etc
13:17.59bencoh(kvm was the main reason I went linux some years ago)
13:18.15DocScrutinizer05blame Qt
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13:18.57DocScrutinizer05dunno why those suckers didn't link statically
13:20.22DocScrutinizer05anyway `GP3 <projectfilename>` works now, as does "save"
13:20.33DocScrutinizer05just the dang file requesters... :-S
13:21.34KotCzarnyyou can always run with older libs by pointing to them via LD_LIBRARY+PATH
13:21.40KotCzarnyLD_LIBRARY_PATH
13:22.02KotCzarnywhich usually solves libs incompatibility
13:26.15DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/98590280
13:26.46DocScrutinizer05it seems like this stuff needs _newer_ libraries though
13:27.15DocScrutinizer05I had quite some fun installing a buttload of Qt libs
13:27.30DocScrutinizer05and one of them obviously acts up
13:28.03DocScrutinizer05tried that LD_LIBRARY_PATH stuff, didn't help much
13:29.13DocScrutinizer05but in the end iirc the major fly in the ointment was permissions to access USB
13:30.50DocScrutinizer05somehow I fixed that the unix way, prolly by adding GP3 to a group that may access USB device
13:31.30DocScrutinizer05or I brute force tweaked the permissions of /dev/usb
13:33.09DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/83015496
13:35.41DocScrutinizer05krhrhrhr
13:35.43DocScrutinizer05saturn:~ # lsof 2>/dev/null |grep GP3|wc -l
13:35.44DocScrutinizer051046
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13:36.24DocScrutinizer05and BT again enabled >:-(
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13:39.59DocScrutinizer05btw the first pastebin above is about GP3 silently dieing when clicking on "open..."
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13:43.45drathirDocScrutinizer05: virtualbox is the worst one i guess...
13:44.56bencohdepends on your needs
13:44.57DocScrutinizer05dunno. I finally made it run in a VM but the problems were all the same
13:45.23DocScrutinizer05used vagrant
13:45.48drathirbut i hear the bsd maybe in near future will support kvm when that happen will be great...
13:45.52DocScrutinizer05which in turn didn't give me direct full access over USB and no X window either
13:46.39DocScrutinizer05didn't want to install XEN, since despite it works great, it messes up my host's network config with nasty bridges
13:47.03bencohdrathir: there was a project to port KVM to freebsd years ago, but considering they eventually developped bhyve, it's prolly dead
13:48.12drathironly like openvz and kvm...
13:48.57drathiropenvz bc of performance and cheap, kvm for power users...
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14:56.43ozeroHi all. Not to start holywar, any advantages of maemo 5 vs replicant/cyanogen security-wise? From what I've found LUKS option is limited to /home
14:58.34KotCzarnydepends what kind of security you talk about
14:58.47KotCzarnyagainst device access or spyware/remote toy like
15:02.10DocScrutinizer05ozero: Maemo resp the N900 is a plain linux computer not much different to your desktop linux PC. You basically can do all the things on the former you would expect to work on the latter
15:03.00DocScrutinizer05so running LUKS on rootfs is tricky but can get done - on both platforms
15:04.29ozerowell, on my typical *nix computer I can encrypt whole /dev/sdA and keep bootloader on /dev/sdB
15:04.46DocScrutinizer05the only thing around core system not compatible between your desktop PC and N900 is the bootloader
15:05.19DocScrutinizer05on N900 you only got uBoot as FOSS bootloader
15:05.39DocScrutinizer05you can't use stuff like GRUB etc
15:07.14DocScrutinizer05I however doubt - without having looked into it - that on PC the bootloader itself would handle LUKS on rootfs. It's probably a special initrd that does, and you can implement exactly same solution on N900
15:07.33KotCzarnyone can always flash minimal kernel which could kexec another kernel+initrd which would have some encryption script
15:08.06DocScrutinizer05not even needed, uBoot itself can start "another kernel+initrd"
15:08.23KotCzarnyyeah
15:08.45KotCzarnybut initrd is a must usually to properly setup things
15:08.57DocScrutinizer05for LUKS etc it is
15:09.09DocScrutinizer05maemo usually doesn't use initrd (anymore)
15:09.32DocScrutinizer05though there's still a NAND partition "initrd" which is unused. For legacy reasons ;-)
15:09.45KotCzarnyunused you say? good to know
15:09.47KotCzarny:)
15:09.51DocScrutinizer05sure
15:10.22DocScrutinizer05check cat /proc/mtd
15:10.32DocScrutinizer05mtd4: 00200000 00020000 "initfs"
15:10.37KotCzarnyyeah, just didnt know its not used for anything
15:10.57DocScrutinizer05it's legacy from maemo4 afaik, not used for anything
15:11.10DocScrutinizer05alas too small to create an ubifs on it
15:11.46DocScrutinizer05btw *some* tools use it, I heard ;-)
15:12.35DocScrutinizer05once there been considerations how to easily tell somebody ruined his N900 by overclocking
15:12.57DocScrutinizer05other people store some passwords there, I heard
15:12.58bencoh?
15:14.11DocScrutinizer05but officially it's unused or even unknown
15:14.49DocScrutinizer05and afaik it's also untouched through flashing
15:15.24ozeroDocScrutinizer05, so with default bootloader or uBoot, is it possible to setup plain dm-crypt for / ?..
15:15.32DocScrutinizer05it's unclear if NOLO still has legacy that would try to load an initrd from there
15:15.48DocScrutinizer05ozero: I'd say yes
15:16.14bencohtricky thoug
15:16.22DocScrutinizer05:nod:
15:16.30DocScrutinizer05just as tricky as on PC
15:16.42DocScrutinizer05maybe a tiny bit more even
15:16.56DocScrutinizer05but really only a *tiny* bit
15:18.29ozerohave something to do for a next weekend
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16:34.18DocScrutinizer05possibly never before noticed Nokia N900/.documents/maemo_software_copyright.pdf
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16:35.41DocScrutinizer05acording to this document you might think the complete firmware is under free licensing and you may share it to whomever you like, in unaltered or modified form
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17:19.48drathirO.o
17:19.55drathirL29Ah: really?
17:20.21drathirL29Ah: ++ nezmar.jabbim.cz
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17:30.51L29Ahwhat
17:31.15L29Ahsometimes it fucks up and produces some dupes of me
17:31.23L29Ahand then i get all the messages doubled
17:31.27L29Ahlike now
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18:28.08Maxdamantus01:30:34 < kerio> and you can't necessarily expect to install a debian package on ubuntu or viceversa and have it work flawlessly
18:28.15MaxdamantusExcept you can, because it is literally Debian.
18:28.27Maxdamantusit's as much Debian as Mint is Ubuntu.
18:28.56Sicelohave you tried Maxdamantus?
18:30.13MaxdamantusNo. But I know you can, because Ubuntu is a direct variant of Debian, just as Mint is a direct variant of Ubuntu.
18:30.26KotCzarnyum, dependency hell
18:30.28KotCzarnyetc
18:30.30Sicelook. :)
18:30.39MaxdamantusI think they even effectively rebase on Debian releases occasionally.
18:32.33Siceloi can confirm kerio was right. of course, one can always "force" things to work, even across RPM-DEB distros
18:32.40Maxdamantus“Before release, packages are imported from Debian Unstable continuously and merged with Ubuntu-specific modifications”
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19:17.02drathirL29Ah: its really good and stable as rock service...
19:18.17drathirMaxdamantus: ubuntu trying to be debian like its not a debian...
19:19.11drathirMaxdamantus: only one similarity in my opinion is both using deb...
19:22.54L29Ahwhat do you suggest?
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19:48.53drathirL29Ah: nezmar.jabbim.cz the server...
19:49.29drathirL29Ah: xmpp correctly...
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