| 00:01.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | real estate on PCB yes, height no |
| 00:05.56 | *** join/#maemo Oksanaa (~chatzilla@Maemo/community/council/Wikiwide) |
| 00:23.43 | Oksanaa | find: unrecognized: -exec |
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| 00:40.56 | Oksanaa | I am attempting to build a package on-device, and get error: find: unrecognized: -exec |
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| 02:16.44 | Oksanaa | find: unrecognized: -exec What is that? During dpkg-buildpackage. And having source code relying on scratchbox so that it cannot be built on device is ugly |
| 02:17.04 | Oksanaa | Is there such a thing as GNU find, and where to find it? |
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| 11:22.54 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 11:29.14 | ravelo | I have some trouble registering at talk.maemo.org. I get the error message: "You have left a required field blank." |
| 11:33.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: ^^^ |
| 11:34.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ravelo: you got JS enabled? |
| 11:35.38 | ravelo | -> did not work in IE (sorry, I admit I use IE :) ) |
| 11:35.53 | ravelo | in opera it worked without problems |
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| 12:14.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...and I thought the browser wars ended around year 2005 or somesuch |
| 12:19.49 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: ie edge is pretty good |
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| 13:51.17 | stryngs | Ok, I'm responding to chatback right now, so if you say something to me, I won't respond to it just yet. On the concept of CSSU and being able to provide an image to folks; it can be done. It's how I do it with my own version of Maemo. It requires some work and creativity, but it allows for a complete "offline" installation for your n900; much like downloading any random linux ISO. One should not have to be "online" just to upgrade their n900. |
| 13:52.19 | stryngs | IMHO, Cssu shouldn't be done like it is; rather a meta-package; cssu_1.0_armel.deb. This meta package will include everything you need. I'm guessing it's somewhat done like that now, but "not" in the full debian style meta package sense. |
| 13:53.28 | stryngs | merlin1991: Hi, I'm reading chatback right now, so can't respond just yet; but I got your pong =) I'd really like to setup a community meeting online via IRC on an appointed day to discuss "Where we, the community" can go from here, and how to get those, who wish it, ALL on the same page; not the fragmeneted way things are done right now. |
| 13:53.53 | stryngs | ya'ay, done with scrollback |
| 13:54.59 | stryngs | So..... What are ya'lls thoughts on that? Creating one "standard" image, for those who wish to use it. Call is CSSU-ng or whatever... One simple .deb that provides a metapackage. Using preinst, postinst, prerm, postrm and the control file; there is nothing that cannot be accomplished. |
| 13:55.58 | stryngs | Also, for garage.maemo.org, I found a vulnerability; who does that get reported to....? Do they hang out in this chatroom? If not, why not, etc..? |
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| 14:09.10 | warfare | stryngs: techstaff@maemo.org |
| 14:09.49 | stryngs | Ah, hi there. |
| 14:09.56 | stryngs | That's who i Point to for the vuln? |
| 14:10.01 | warfare | Yes :) |
| 14:10.13 | stryngs | Cool; I'll shoot my report here in a bit. |
| 14:10.19 | warfare | That means that at least me & xes get the report. |
| 14:10.32 | stryngs | warfare: Oh, so you're one of "them" =)? |
| 14:10.42 | Ras_Older | Wait for a fix before going public? |
| 14:10.52 | stryngs | Ras_Older: I always do |
| 14:11.17 | warfare | stryngs: yep. |
| 14:11.33 | stryngs | warfare: What are your toughts on bringing folks together for a "meet and greet and path plotting"?;2u |
| 14:12.08 | warfare | stryngs: Maemo folks? I think this would work best at the usual hacker conferences. |
| 14:12.35 | stryngs | warfare: Right, but the majority of folks I understand, are European. |
| 14:12.40 | stryngs | warfare: I live in SC, usa. |
| 14:13.16 | stryngs | warfare: I'd like to come out with a "community approved" standard image for the n900. Maemo and CSSU based |
| 14:13.25 | stryngs | warfare: With some bind chroot tricks |
| 14:13.30 | stryngs | warfare: No more optify nonsense |
| 14:13.30 | warfare | stryngs: I'm in northern germany, so for me the usual hacker conference is the CCC congress between christmas and new year ;) |
| 14:13.31 | stryngs | etc.. |
| 14:13.55 | stryngs | warfare: Wouldn't it be nice to simply dpkg -i ANY armel based deb for the n900 and NOT worry about filling /? |
| 14:14.40 | warfare | stryngs: Sure, but then you want to talk to merlin1991 about that ;) I'm only doing server stuff. |
| 14:15.06 | stryngs | warfare: Copy that, now I'm finally learning names =) |
| 14:15.16 | stryngs | warfare: sending u vuln report nowq |
| 14:16.30 | warfare | stryngs: Thanks :) |
| 14:17.16 | stryngs | the youtube link is interesting. |
| 14:17.20 | stryngs | warfare: and sent. |
| 14:17.35 | stryngs | warfare: If u have further question, pm me; too lazy to write proper whitepaper for it. |
| 14:18.22 | stryngs | Alright, time to get movin for work, afk a bit. If anyone "likes" the idea of "coming together" for a "maemo conference", start posting some ideas... |
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| 14:57.45 | Sicelo | cssu_1.0_armel.deb |
| 14:59.07 | kerio | ? |
| 14:59.54 | Sicelo | you'll be installing it next month |
| 14:59.57 | kerio | k |
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| 15:39.28 | sixwheeledbeast | will it be tested and confirmed stable? |
| 15:40.46 | Sicelo | yes |
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| 15:47.00 | sixwheeledbeast | :P |
| 15:49.13 | kerio | ~bme-replacement |
| 15:49.14 | infobot | bme-replacement is, like, http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/rx51-bme-replacement http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/projects/maemo/bme-replacement.html See also: http://wiki.maemo.org/Bme_replacement . Please, use wiki page to report bugs/problems and/or solutions to them!, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93183 |
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| 15:54.32 | ZetaR | Is BME replacement recommended for typical phone usage? |
| 15:54.49 | kerio | stable enough for me |
| 15:55.21 | ZetaR | So no babysitting it? |
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| 15:57.23 | ZetaR | Has anyone made a script or package to strip out the nonfree Maemo packages (however many have replacements) and install the free alternatives? |
| 15:57.51 | ZetaR | That would be pretty cool, because it can be hard to figure out how to do all of that. |
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| 16:05.35 | sixwheeledbeast | ZetaR: are we talking extras packages or system FOSS alternative packages |
| 16:06.58 | ZetaR | sixwheeledbeast: Something that will strip out as many of the proprietary packages as possible from a fresh flash. That is what I have in mind. |
| 16:09.09 | sixwheeledbeast | ZetaR: people have personal versions but not "all closed packages", TBH if your on CSSU-T there's probably a reason that package is still closed and installed. |
| 16:11.32 | ZetaR | Well, like bme-replacement, for example. Or fapman. AFAIK, there are replacements for many of the unfree things but you have to know to look for them. |
| 16:12.35 | kerio | i'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure that HAM is opensource |
| 16:12.42 | kerio | and fapman is bad |
| 16:13.51 | ZetaR | Oh, well, these are things I am not well informed about, and why I am asking. Just replace with whatever is actually a good example. ;-) |
| 16:15.29 | sixwheeledbeast | Yep, do bear in mind that just because it is FOSS that doesn't always mean it's better. Especially if there's no support any more. |
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| 16:15.52 | sixwheeledbeast | HAM is open hence speedyham |
| 16:16.19 | ZetaR | Maybe speedyham is what I was thinking of. |
| 16:16.59 | sixwheeledbeast | speedyham is ham that has been patched my fmg |
| 16:17.12 | ZetaR | Even just a table of alternatives with comments (like "not recommended because of blah blah") would be nice. |
| 16:17.29 | ZetaR | Or updated versions like speedyham. |
| 16:18.21 | sixwheeledbeast | Well that's what I mean if you fancy that then CSSU-T is the place to be. |
| 16:20.01 | ZetaR | Ah, okay. I used stable when I did my flash. |
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| 16:51.09 | stryngs | imho, ham sucks. |
| 16:51.25 | stryngs | can't understand why folks would want the GUI package manager that's slower than a cow |
| 16:52.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ham sucks, use lightningh^H speedyham which *rocks* |
| 16:52.36 | stryngs | Interesting |
| 16:52.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~speedyham |
| 16:52.43 | infobot | it has been said that speedyham is 30 times faster than HAM http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-devel/pool/free/h/hildon-application-manager/hildon-application-manager_2.2.73-2_armel.deb |
| 16:53.10 | stryngs | So hey, DocScrutinizer05, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools#proper_bash_and_tools <--- is that you? |
| 16:53.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure :-) |
| 16:53.36 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: What have you thought about my idea of generating 1 community image to branch out from? |
| 16:53.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I guess a mentioning of speedyham in there would just be in order |
| 16:53.47 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: "Bring" the community together, get us all on a level playing field. |
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| 16:54.04 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Sure, see this is what I'm talking about. If it's so good, ham should be removed and speedyham should be the standard. |
| 16:54.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | you lost me |
| 16:54.23 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I want to, in the next couple weeks, get a gather of "smart" maemo folks. |
| 16:54.38 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I'd like us, to put our heads together and decide on what .debs should be on a "standard" image |
| 16:54.48 | stryngs | And then Push that as the "new" way to do maemo |
| 16:54.51 | stryngs | Like CSSU, but better. |
| 16:54.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, that's what I suggested as "my basic needs covered" package in CSSU repo, as am optional package |
| 16:55.27 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Thing is, everybody has a billion great ideas, but unless u look at the forums, or happen to be in chat at the right time and place; all these ideas are scattered like sand in the wind. |
| 16:55.48 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Whereas, since we evidently have control of the maemo domain via warfare, we can "point" users in a true northward direction. |
| 16:55.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | sadly sort of true that |
| 16:56.13 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I propose, that a 100% offline "image" of "whatever we vote to call it" be made available. |
| 16:56.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | "point users any direction" is not exactly simple |
| 16:56.19 | stryngs | I already do it with my personal image |
| 16:56.29 | stryngs | We need to point em in one direction |
| 16:56.35 | stryngs | And then ofc, they can branch from there |
| 16:56.46 | stryngs | But "one true community inspired" list of .debs and settings. |
| 16:56.51 | stryngs | i.e. |
| 16:56.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the mere pointing is a problem |
| 16:57.24 | stryngs | So why not guide them and us DocScrutinizer05 ? |
| 16:57.34 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: You have TONS of postings |
| 16:57.41 | stryngs | but they're scattered here and there and everywherre |
| 16:57.45 | stryngs | Sicelo has nice stuff too |
| 16:57.49 | stryngs | etc, etc, etc... |
| 16:57.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't have any package we could swap for a new one and expect *all* users to get the update automatically. There's no such packet we have control of and could mess with it and everybody has installed |
| 16:57.57 | stryngs | Yes we do! |
| 16:58.03 | sla_erick_ | Hi there, is there any step by step or any tutorial that shows me how to run an example project in ESbox? Im running the virtual image with everything set up already, got xephyr running, but not sure how to run an example app |
| 16:58.03 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: We make a new repo |
| 16:58.17 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: In that repo we have 1 metapackage |
| 16:58.25 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: If users install that one meta |
| 16:58.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | new repo is a big headache and nobody has it installed and we can't make anybody install it |
| 16:58.35 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Then our Depends: line in the control file, takes care of the rest |
| 16:58.42 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: We can "point em though" |
| 16:58.53 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I'm more than willing to host a repo, I already do for my own purposes. |
| 16:59.07 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I'm more than fluent with the meta concept, it's how I push updates for my own users |
| 16:59.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I could prepare a script or install-file or whatever, so users could do one-click-upgrade |
| 16:59.26 | stryngs | Just make it a postinst file in DEBIAN dir. |
| 16:59.43 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Again, revolve this purely around 1 meta deb. |
| 17:00.00 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: So... Would you be interested in helping me gather the flock of smart folks? |
| 17:00.12 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: If we put our heads together, we could invent some kickass n900 project |
| 17:00.31 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Thanks to your post, I now know speedpatch is pointless. |
| 17:00.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, we have no access to the basic repos (well, now we don't have *any* official basic repos), and we don't have a package in e.g. maemo-extras that every user has installed |
| 17:01.00 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Can we not put a package in maemo-extras? |
| 17:01.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | (gather folks) Imight help a little bit, but actually I'm more than just busy with Neo900 |
| 17:01.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, we can put as many packages in maemo-extras as we like |
| 17:01.46 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I completly understand, any help u can offer would be wonderful |
| 17:02.06 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I'm going to create a forum post soon on this idea, i'll link u when it's done. |
| 17:02.17 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Thanks for taking the time to listen =) |
| 17:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) thanks for the initiative |
| 17:03.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | sla_erick_: what's ESbox? |
| 17:03.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | some scratchbox of sorts? |
| 17:03.41 | sla_erick_ | DocScrutinizer05: IDE based on Eclipse |
| 17:04.03 | sla_erick_ | DocScrutinizer05: its included in the SDK image |
| 17:04.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | never heard of, sorry |
| 17:04.24 | buZz | hmm easydebian is kinda shit :P |
| 17:04.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | sla_erick_: then otoh i'm not a developer |
| 17:04.45 | buZz | can i run a newer debian on my n800 in chroot? |
| 17:04.56 | stryngs | buZz: "try" |
| 17:05.06 | stryngs | I've been debating on trying to get docker rolling... |
| 17:05.08 | sla_erick_ | DocScrutinizer05: no problem, I understand |
| 17:05.09 | stryngs | How cool would that be. |
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| 17:05.35 | buZz | ^_^ pretty cool |
| 17:05.52 | buZz | but just a more recent image of debian would already work i guess |
| 17:10.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: how about providing a BM backup tarball with a completely configured up-to-date system on it, for now? |
| 17:10.37 | Sicelo | KotCzarny: do you know if battery-eye works with bme-replacement? |
| 17:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | could even convert that to a fiasco image for flashing |
| 17:11.48 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I have something semi-like what you mention, just not "backup" per se |
| 17:12.43 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I have users run 4 scripts from a tarball. In that tarball is what I consider my basic n900 image. It's not as "clean" as a backup manager thing, but that's because I also remove the need to worry about 'optification' and such. |
| 17:13.11 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: The installation is 100% offline because all the debs are stored in the tarball itself. |
| 17:13.19 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Simple dpkg -i operations take place |
| 17:13.25 | stryngs | Environment changes, gconf, etc.. |
| 17:14.13 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Where I'm lost at; is again, there is no "community consensus" on what's good package, and what's crap package, hence, my image having speedpatch and no speedyham |
| 17:14.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops |
| 17:14.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~crappatch |
| 17:14.45 | infobot | methinks speedpatch is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1012405#post1012405 >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch], or http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1328060&postcount=3325 [bug report] |
| 17:15.17 | KotCzarny | sicelo: dont know, im on stock firmware |
| 17:15.28 | sixwheeledbeast | ~broken-packages |
| 17:15.28 | KotCzarny | nothing stops your from testing |
| 17:15.34 | stryngs | That's the type of knowledge I want to "imprint" on this proposal... Also, for the neo900, this will help tremendously because you'll have an "OS" ready to go for neo900 users. |
| 17:15.37 | sixwheeledbeast | hmm |
| 17:15.46 | sixwheeledbeast | ~listkeys broken |
| 17:15.52 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: How's it going |
| 17:16.10 | sixwheeledbeast | mmh |
| 17:16.12 | sixwheeledbeast | hey |
| 17:16.23 | KotCzarny | stryngs, i personally (and its not maemo community opinion) dont like cssu-metapackage idea, unless its bare essentials and other things in cssu as optional independent upgrades |
| 17:16.25 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: What are your thoughts on getting smartfolks like yourself to put heads together and "create" a true new "maemo" image. |
| 17:16.44 | sixwheeledbeast | me smart ? o.O |
| 17:16.45 | stryngs | KotCzarny: That's exactly what it could be, bare essentials, we could have other metas for other things |
| 17:16.48 | stryngs | KotCzarny: i.e. |
| 17:16.52 | stryngs | n900-hackpack |
| 17:16.56 | stryngs | n900-bluetooth |
| 17:16.57 | stryngs | etc.. |
| 17:17.02 | KotCzarny | you know, the things needed for operation of device |
| 17:17.07 | KotCzarny | and not just 'media player' |
| 17:17.14 | stryngs | KotCzarny: Sure man, I get it |
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| 17:17.20 | KotCzarny | or image viewer or anything like that |
| 17:17.26 | stryngs | KotCzarny: And I like that idea too, actually a lot better than my original idea. |
| 17:17.30 | KotCzarny | but as i said, its only my opinion |
| 17:17.53 | KotCzarny | some people things that metapackage has to cover whole device experience |
| 17:17.59 | stryngs | KotCzarny: Take the "1" meta, we'll call it "base" for now... The base meta will "STRIP" out all nonsense from stock maemo, and add needed essentials |
| 17:18.10 | stryngs | KotCzarny: Negative, other metas can do that |
| 17:18.17 | stryngs | KotCzarny: i.e. n900-media |
| 17:18.21 | stryngs | n900-ames |
| 17:18.24 | stryngs | n900-games |
| 17:18.25 | stryngs | etc.. |
| 17:18.31 | stryngs | I like your idea KotCzarny |
| 17:18.39 | stryngs | That's what I'm going to start with then |
| 17:18.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | KotCzarny: how's *any* of that related to CSSU? |
| 17:18.47 | stryngs | KotCzarny: Any idea for a name? Every good package needs a name |
| 17:19.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | please read: |
| 17:19.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 17:19.14 | infobot | cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) |
| 17:19.25 | KotCzarny | doc, i was referring to stryngs idea of cssu metapackage |
| 17:19.39 | stryngs | begins writing his proposal while the forge is hot |
| 17:19.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>It aims to deliver fixes which would be difficult to deliver through Extras (like core Maemo packages). It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories.<< |
| 17:20.11 | Sicelo | KotCzarny: have just been looking at the source. should work .. it gets info from lshal. |
| 17:20.58 | sixwheeledbeast | You need to break the mp to move towards installing what you want, however, firstly all the dependencies of every package need checking and fixing. |
| 17:21.46 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: mp? |
| 17:22.18 | sixwheeledbeast | metapackage, |
| 17:22.25 | stryngs | Ah |
| 17:22.54 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: I'm typing up this idea right now; it's too much to put into chat. I'm excited though, people are "thinking" about it and gears are turning |
| 17:24.28 | sixwheeledbeast | the thing is everybody wants something different from Maemo. You need to get it more like a "normal" distro without the metapackage to move forward IMO |
| 17:25.36 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: I want what u want |
| 17:25.45 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: I believe I have the solution, which is why i'm writing it down |
| 17:25.57 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: I believe it will solve everybody's wants too. |
| 17:26.04 | stryngs | sixwheeledbeast: Without giving them "crap" they don't want |
| 17:26.18 | stryngs | i.e KotCzarny only wants "basic needs", done... |
| 17:26.33 | stryngs | Yet, for folks like myself, we want everything "hacker", our needs are solved too |
| 17:26.45 | *** join/#maemo erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.139.16) |
| 17:29.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, the Meta is a PITA. It can't be *that* hard to create proper dependencies for all the packages in MP |
| 17:30.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I fail to really wrap my head around how 'normal' distros make stuff like kernel or dbus or X11 install, but it seems there's no black magic inside maemo couldn't do as well |
| 17:30.55 | Sicelo | what is the real *problem* that is being fixed by the proposed idea? |
| 17:30.59 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Maemo can do it |
| 17:31.03 | erlehmann | kernel, dbus and x11 is ok |
| 17:31.04 | erlehmann | systemd is where it gets hairy |
| 17:31.06 | erlehmann | the devs have this vision that it is updated in lockstep with the linux kernel |
| 17:31.07 | stryngs | Sicelo: I'm typing it up! |
| 17:31.19 | erlehmann | but the debian package dependency handle system cannot do that, i was told |
| 17:31.26 | erlehmann | you cannot actually depend on a specific kernel version |
| 17:31.32 | stryngs | erlehmann: a .deb file can do ANYTHING u want... |
| 17:31.40 | stryngs | erlehmann: pre/post inst/rm files... |
| 17:31.45 | stryngs | erlehmann: They are magic. |
| 17:31.46 | erlehmann | stryngs ⦠if i download it from zombo.com |
| 17:31.55 | erlehmann | stryngs the problem is the dependency checking |
| 17:32.14 | Sicelo | without a clear understanding of what problem we're trying to solve, i don't think we're going anywhere |
| 17:32.19 | erlehmann | upgrading from oldstable to stable will happily lead to a system that has systemd and will not let udev recognize your mouse |
| 17:32.21 | Sicelo | ~xy |
| 17:32.21 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, xy is The XY problem: You want to do X, but don't know how. You think you can solve it using Y, but don't know how to do that, either. You ask about Y, which is a strange thing to want to do. Just ask about X. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal |
| 17:32.43 | erlehmann | tell me about X! |
| 17:32.54 | stryngs | Sicelo: I know how to do X, I just want to get others onboard, or it's not worth it. |
| 17:32.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: aiui the "problem" is getting proper tools, speedyham, other stuff that's basically 'optional' onto the devices of users who don't want to cherrypick |
| 17:32.56 | Sicelo | :) |
| 17:33.12 | Sicelo | oh |
| 17:33.21 | erlehmann | speedyham? |
| 17:33.25 | stryngs | My problem.... I'm not sure what packages suck, and what is recommended, all i have to go off of, is CSSU repo. |
| 17:33.25 | erlehmann | ~speedyham |
| 17:33.26 | infobot | speedyham is, like, 30 times faster than HAM http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-devel/pool/free/h/hildon-application-manager/hildon-application-manager_2.2.73-2_armel.deb |
| 17:33.47 | erlehmann | oh |
| 17:34.09 | stryngs | Sicelo: i.e. I've been rocking speedypatch, when, according to DocScrutinizer05; I'm stupid for doing so. Not cool, I should have never had speedypatch on my n900, but since there isn't 1 source of info for all things "Maemo Community", I wouldn't know it. |
| 17:34.10 | *** join/#maemo KotCzarny (~ariel@afbb109.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 17:34.18 | KotCzarny | damn consumer dsl |
| 17:34.22 | KotCzarny | what did i miss? |
| 17:34.28 | stryngs | Sicelo: I want to gather the grains of sand, and build the castle |
| 17:34.38 | stryngs | Discussing the "idea" KotCzarny |
| 17:34.53 | erlehmann | make metapackages maemo-cabal-packages-recommended and maemo-cabal-packages-shitquality ? |
| 17:35.03 | KotCzarny | cabal? |
| 17:35.07 | Sicelo | erlehmann: that's what is sounds like to me |
| 17:35.12 | Sicelo | *it |
| 17:35.16 | erlehmann | KotCzarny the people in charge! |
| 17:35.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | no way "cabal", that's poettering infested term |
| 17:35.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~systemd |
| 17:35.32 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see https://devuan.org http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd |
| 17:35.47 | KotCzarny | systemd is evil |
| 17:36.32 | erlehmann | harr harr |
| 17:36.33 | erlehmann | okay, how is your club called? |
| 17:36.36 | Sicelo | KotCzarny: why don't you use bme-replacement? |
| 17:36.38 | KotCzarny | lately i upgraded my x32 to jessie and now i dont know which way boot scripts go |
| 17:36.46 | KotCzarny | sicelo: because stock works for me? |
| 17:36.48 | erlehmann | http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/notes/systemd-linux.html |
| 17:36.59 | KotCzarny | and im too lazy to update to cssu |
| 17:37.03 | Sicelo | :) |
| 17:37.21 | KotCzarny | (when i get my secondary n900 i will, now i only have one n900 as my main phone) |
| 17:37.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | erlehmann: you should see ~poettering |
| 17:37.28 | Sicelo | great .. that's why i am not so sure about this meta thing |
| 17:38.04 | erlehmann | ~poettering |
| 17:38.04 | infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal |
| 17:40.05 | erlehmann | i know that one |
| 17:41.14 | KotCzarny | i wonder why so many distros jumped onto systemd train |
| 17:42.10 | erlehmann | KotCzarny it was either that or GNOME stops working |
| 17:42.25 | KotCzarny | i dont use gnome (figure that) |
| 17:42.42 | erlehmann | yes, but that is a *lot* of leverage |
| 17:42.42 | erlehmann | red hat really pushed its weight around here |
| 17:43.27 | erlehmann | gnome devs were a bit weasely around that issue, btw |
| 17:43.29 | KotCzarny | wasnt 'do one thing but do it perfect' *nix lead idea? |
| 17:43.44 | KotCzarny | in that sense systemd is turning 180degs |
| 17:44.23 | *** join/#maemo _rd_ (~rd@p57A0FAC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:44.39 | erlehmann | AFAIK, GNOME 3.13.2 âtemporarilyâ depended on systemd. as in âwe will remove the dependency in 3.14, honest!â |
| 17:44.59 | KotCzarny | bye bye gnome |
| 17:45.01 | erlehmann | turns out the GNOME devs have funny ideas of what âtemporarilyâ means (i.e. âforeverâ) |
| 17:45.23 | erlehmann | and then it was on, you either ditch GNOME from your distribution or use systemd |
| 17:45.28 | KotCzarny | funnily how much faster my laptop is without it |
| 17:45.54 | KotCzarny | and how much crappackages are uninstalled when one doesnt need it anymore |
| 17:46.17 | erlehmann | treachery! blasphemy! |
| 17:46.18 | erlehmann | hahaha :D |
| 17:46.38 | erlehmann | ; cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/use-sysvinit |
| 17:46.38 | erlehmann | Package: systemd-sysv |
| 17:46.38 | erlehmann | Pin: release o=Debian |
| 17:46.38 | erlehmann | Pin-Priority: -1 |
| 17:46.57 | KotCzarny | i do that too, but still, my initscripts are a mess now |
| 17:47.14 | erlehmann | a mess? |
| 17:47.17 | KotCzarny | yup |
| 17:47.34 | KotCzarny | something doesnt remount my / rw |
| 17:47.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | krhrhr |
| 17:48.04 | KotCzarny | but this x32 debian is just a test bed anyway |
| 17:48.10 | KotCzarny | normally i use slack |
| 17:48.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | erlehmann: many thanks for http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/notes/systemd-linux.html - awesome |
| 17:48.42 | erlehmann | :3 |
| 17:48.48 | erlehmann | DocScrutinizer05 i have a less tongue-in-cheek post regarding the issue http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/systemd-assumptions-bullying-consent.html |
| 17:49.03 | KotCzarny | is there english version? |
| 17:49.13 | erlehmann | its a shopping list of bullying behaviour |
| 17:49.46 | erlehmann | KotCzarny the post that DocScrutinizer05 liked is just âwhy is it GNU/Linux instead of Linuxâ mutated to âwhy is it Systemd/Linux instead of Linuxâ |
| 17:49.55 | erlehmann | it is mainly a joke |
| 17:49.57 | *** join/#maemo lobito (~lobito@190.177.215.161) |
| 17:50.01 | KotCzarny | :) |
| 17:50.22 | erlehmann | i can highly recommend to read the systemd source |
| 17:50.26 | erlehmann | and the pulseaudio source |
| 17:50.29 | erlehmann | it is quality comedy |
| 17:50.35 | KotCzarny | it looks like slack doesnt have gnome anymore in -current |
| 17:50.36 | KotCzarny | yay! |
| 17:57.08 | erlehmann | so back to the thing |
| 17:57.53 | KotCzarny | hehe, so systemd is just about shaving 5s boot time, when we have tux-on-ice, yet making it inflexible and buggy |
| 17:58.00 | KotCzarny | sounds like the right idea |
| 17:59.50 | stryngs | Can one of ya'll do me a favor and on your n900, please do: mount | nc termbin.com 9999 && df -h | nc termbin.com 9999 |
| 17:59.53 | stryngs | And post the urls? |
| 18:00.02 | stryngs | I need a non'stryngs system to compare for the post against |
| 18:00.58 | erlehmann | lel |
| 18:02.38 | KotCzarny | http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=cdMv8PMt |
| 18:02.56 | stryngs | word |
| 18:03.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/45751323 |
| 18:03.27 | stryngs | KotCzarny: that's hillarious |
| 18:03.37 | KotCzarny | which part? |
| 18:03.47 | stryngs | I actually refreshed 3 times before I got the joke |
| 18:03.55 | stryngs | Please refresh the page to continue... |
| 18:04.03 | KotCzarny | lol |
| 18:04.13 | KotCzarny | works for me in firefox |
| 18:04.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 18:04.23 | stryngs | Oh, u actually posted it? |
| 18:04.27 | stryngs | I thought u were lulzing me |
| 18:04.38 | KotCzarny | nope |
| 18:04.45 | KotCzarny | that's my n900's df and mount |
| 18:05.10 | stryngs | http://www.picpaste.com/lol-Y1hkPikw.png |
| 18:05.12 | KotCzarny | and works in links too |
| 18:05.15 | stryngs | That's what it shows. |
| 18:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/45751323 |
| 18:05.30 | KotCzarny | O.o |
| 18:05.33 | KotCzarny | try links? |
| 18:05.38 | stryngs | Meh, I got it from DocScrutinizer05 |
| 18:05.38 | KotCzarny | or any other browser? |
| 18:05.49 | stryngs | Anyone's system works just fine, just need something "other" than mine right now |
| 18:05.56 | erlehmann | i am waiting for |
| 18:05.57 | erlehmann | systemd on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,name=systemd) |
| 18:06.01 | erlehmann | :--DDD |
| 18:06.05 | KotCzarny | :) |
| 18:06.08 | stryngs | Trying to make this as indepth of a writeup as possible. I'm only going to get one shot at this when it comes to people listening.... |
| 18:06.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | pastebin.com is JS infested iirc |
| 18:06.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually nope, it's a plain txt |
| 18:07.19 | KotCzarny | http://pastebin.ca/raw/3152192 |
| 18:07.24 | KotCzarny | copy on pastebin.ca |
| 18:07.37 | KotCzarny | doc: i always paste raw links |
| 18:07.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaah that's why |
| 18:07.54 | KotCzarny | faster and no js, dont know why they hate stryngs chrome |
| 18:08.05 | KotCzarny | as i said, link worked in links |
| 18:08.22 | stryngs | Meh, no worries, DocScrutinizer05's post was exactly what I needed |
| 18:08.37 | stryngs | I really thought you lulz'd me though, I busted out laughing |
| 18:08.47 | KotCzarny | stryngs, his system is cssu, mine us stock fremantle |
| 18:09.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...and it made me curse why no netcat on my N900 |
| 18:09.12 | Sicelo | cssu doesn't repartition anything iirc .. so they'll be the same |
| 18:09.34 | KotCzarny | sicelo, what about free space? |
| 18:09.47 | Sicelo | i doubt that's what stryngs is after :) |
| 18:09.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, it doesn't repartition but for sure has some changes to uSD card mounts |
| 18:10.05 | Sicelo | he's likely on mounts the way i understand |
| 18:10.06 | stryngs | Sicelo: you're 100% correct |
| 18:10.07 | KotCzarny | i wonder why pymaemo is so ugly in bind mounts |
| 18:10.17 | stryngs | KotCzarny: I intend to fix that. |
| 18:10.25 | stryngs | KotCzarny: Quick, fast and in a hurry. |
| 18:10.29 | KotCzarny | symlinks would suffice |
| 18:10.31 | stryngs | This is where Pali will come in at too |
| 18:10.38 | stryngs | No, no symlinks, bind mounts |
| 18:10.43 | stryngs | I want FHS |
| 18:10.47 | erlehmann | stryngs what is the writeup? |
| 18:10.57 | stryngs | erlehmann: My proposal for a "standard maemo" "distro" |
| 18:11.20 | stryngs | erlehmann: But, I've gotta make sure I write it up proper, otherwise, nobody will care, and things stay the same. |
| 18:11.29 | stryngs | erlehmann: I will post before end of day though. |
| 18:11.29 | erlehmann | stryngs maemo 6? |
| 18:11.34 | Sicelo | 7 |
| 18:11.37 | stryngs | erlehmann: We can call it dogwater for all i care. |
| 18:11.47 | stryngs | goes back to writing |
| 18:11.55 | Sicelo | 6 is Harmattan ;) |
| 18:11.55 | KotCzarny | hmm, but it will need repartitioned internal mmc, right? |
| 18:12.06 | KotCzarny | call it fremantle reloaded |
| 18:12.09 | erlehmann | lel |
| 18:12.09 | erlehmann | can i choose the codename? |
| 18:12.21 | *** join/#maemo _rd_ (~rd@p57A0FAC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:15.30 | erlehmann | call it âmeatloaf mermenâ |
| 18:15.32 | erlehmann | that's an anagram of âmaemo fremantleâ |
| 18:16.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's great :-D |
| 18:16.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | but actually it's not a veritable distro, it's just a collection of patches and apps |
| 18:16.44 | KotCzarny | doc, remember difference between chinook and diablo? |
| 18:16.56 | KotCzarny | also just a collection of patches and upgrades |
| 18:16.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what Yast calls a category or group or theme |
| 18:17.39 | KotCzarny | anagram: did you mean: nag a ram? |
| 18:17.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I seriously doubt that, since packages were not really compatible, no? |
| 18:18.10 | KotCzarny | i think they mostly were, i might be wrong, old time |
| 18:18.12 | KotCzarny | *times |
| 18:18.27 | KotCzarny | http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=fremantle+cssu&t=1000&a=n |
| 18:18.38 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:18.40 | KotCzarny | ;) |
| 18:18.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ROTFL |
| 18:19.03 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.12 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.23 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.28 | stryngs | I take it Fecal Sternums would be at the "center" of the maemo world =) |
| 18:19.33 | stryngs | A shitstorm as it were... |
| 18:19.35 | stryngs | =) |
| 18:19.56 | KotCzarny | so many fecal options |
| 18:20.04 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:20.04 | *** join/#maemo erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.138.146) |
| 18:20.12 | KotCzarny | erlehmann: http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=fremantle+cssu&t=1000&a=n |
| 18:20.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | Camel Rent Fuss |
| 18:21.14 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.46 | KotCzarny | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.15 | stryngs | I dunno, meatloaf mermen is kinda funny =) Almost ubuntu like in it's ridiculousness |
| 18:24.49 | KotCzarny | something that makes cssu spellable would be nice either |
| 18:25.25 | *** join/#maemo erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.121) |
| 18:27.54 | erlehmann | okay, is it possible to create a bare-bones image for maemo? |
| 18:27.58 | erlehmann | like, with current tools? |
| 18:28.01 | erlehmann | one that can be flashed to the n900? |
| 18:28.14 | *** join/#maemo Oksana (~chatzilla@Maemo/community/council/Wikiwide) |
| 18:28.27 | KotCzarny | flashable? yes, fiasco? probably not |
| 18:28.56 | stryngs | erlehmann: Yes and no. flash and the apt-get purge |
| 18:28.56 | erlehmann | fiasco? |
| 18:29.03 | KotCzarny | rescueos is a nice base for arbitrary flashing |
| 18:29.17 | KotCzarny | with ability to change partitions too |
| 18:29.20 | erlehmann | so how far can we get with a bare-bones image and mostly-free software? |
| 18:29.23 | KotCzarny | or rsyncing things |
| 18:29.31 | KotCzarny | ~fiasco |
| 18:29.31 | infobot | L4-compatible real-time microkernel capable of running Linux in usermode. URL: http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/fiasco/ |
| 18:29.35 | KotCzarny | o.o |
| 18:29.56 | KotCzarny | ~literal fiasco |
| 18:29.56 | infobot | "fiasco" is "<reply> L4-compatible real-time microkernel capable of running Linux in usermode. URL: http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/fiasco/" |
| 18:30.04 | KotCzarny | ~listkeys fiasco |
| 18:30.29 | KotCzarny | erlehman: fiasco is the image format used by flasher-3.5 |
| 18:30.30 | stryngs | erlehmann: Pretty damn far, the problem is all the info is scattered worse than a sandstorm |
| 18:31.17 | erlehmann | then we should start collecting ti |
| 18:31.17 | erlehmann | it |
| 18:31.33 | KotCzarny | initrd based boot + some scripting + mtd tools ? |
| 18:32.03 | stryngs | erlehmann: That's what I'm tryign to do =) |
| 18:32.05 | KotCzarny | 0xFFFF can boot kernel+initrd |
| 18:32.21 | erlehmann | mtd? |
| 18:32.39 | KotCzarny | internal flash is mtd device |
| 18:32.54 | KotCzarny | unless we talk about moving everything to internal sd |
| 18:32.57 | erlehmann | busybox can be init |
| 18:32.58 | erlehmann | i have an outlandish idea |
| 18:32.59 | erlehmann | use DJB redo for init system |
| 18:32.59 | erlehmann | i implemented redo in like 300 lines of shell script |
| 18:32.59 | erlehmann | :3 |
| 18:33.09 | erlehmann | so you could have dependency based boot with shell |
| 18:33.53 | KotCzarny | i dont mind good ol' sysvinit |
| 18:34.40 | KotCzarny | but redo/upstart work as long its consistent |
| 18:35.28 | erlehmann | yeah, or that |
| 18:35.28 | erlehmann | :3 |
| 18:36.31 | KotCzarny | does redo work with standard apps? (for example apache init scripts etc) |
| 18:40.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | erlehmann: of course you can build a FIASCO image with all the nice tools in it |
| 18:40.11 | KotCzarny | he left |
| 18:40.34 | KotCzarny | he asked if it can be built with foss tools |
| 18:41.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno if fiascogen is FOSS |
| 18:42.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | check out: |
| 18:42.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bm |
| 18:42.51 | infobot | rumour has it, backupmenu is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 |
| 18:43.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a fiasco rootimage (aka COMBINED) with BM integrated |
| 18:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and instructions how to build it |
| 18:46.42 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: o0o0 |
| 18:47.09 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: So we "can" build an image, that has more and less than what the stock pr1.3 comes with, and flash it Directly to the n900? |
| 18:47.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 18:48.13 | stryngs | Intersting, I'm going to notate that |
| 18:48.19 | stryngs | Yet another tidbit of info |
| 18:48.33 | stryngs | hears "Dust in the Wind" playing softly in the background |
| 18:49.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | heads to kitchen for some calories goo and a fine latte mac |
| 18:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: yet another "info" source you as well could ignore: wiki "the optimal setup" |
| 18:50.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | pretty biased |
| 18:52.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | it might have valuable factoids in it, but you need to check every single line if it's actually what you want |
| 18:57.39 | KotCzarny | Then I tried systemd again. I have configured my system for runlevel 3, but initctl insists on runlevel 5 for the legacy initscripts. You cannot change this behaviour because it is hardcoded in the C source like engraved in stone, seriously! This is exactly why I prefer scripts. |
| 18:58.04 | KotCzarny | could be the reason my initscripts in this systemd debian are a mess |
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| 19:04.49 | Pali | stryngs: hm... you highlighted my name |
| 19:04.52 | Pali | so? :-) |
| 19:11.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think it wasn't a request |
| 19:13.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly was about [2015-09-04 Fri 20:09:58] <DocScrutinizer05> well, it doesn't repartition but for sure has some changes to uSD card mounts |
| 19:13.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | (cssu) |
| 19:13.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: hi btw |
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| 19:36.41 | KotCzarny | Telefon od poczontuk urzywany przeze mnie wszystko dziaÅa prucz wyraźnego usb |
| 19:36.48 | KotCzarny | um, wrong window, sorry |
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| 20:22.25 | stryngs | Pali: Hi! |
| 20:22.31 | Pali | hi! |
| 20:22.51 | stryngs | Pali I don't want to repeat my idea a billion times, but here is the gist: Put all the smart maemo folks together and create something better than what we have. |
| 20:22.58 | stryngs | Pali: U are the Kernel developer genius |
| 20:23.02 | stryngs | Pali: Hence, your highlight |
| 20:23.14 | stryngs | Pali: I'm about 1/3 done with the proposal and will link u when complete |
| 20:23.20 | Pali | ok |
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| 21:05.07 | stryngs | ! It is finished! |
| 21:05.09 | stryngs | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1481123#post1481123 |
| 21:06.19 | stryngs | Pali DocScrutinizer05 KotCzarny Sicelo warfare merlin1991 ^^^ |
| 21:06.32 | stryngs | You'l have to click the pastebin link, but it's because I was char limited |
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| 21:11.39 | Jack64 | stryngs: that's almost a manifesto :P |
| 21:11.50 | stryngs | twitches |
| 21:12.02 | stryngs | Stupid character limiters... |
| 21:12.10 | stryngs | It was only 150583 characters damnit... |
| 21:12.38 | Jack64 | hehe the line must be drawn somewhere... :) |
| 21:12.54 | stryngs | Ah, forgot a name, sixwheeledbeast the link for the proposal is: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1481123#post1481123 |
| 21:13.02 | stryngs | Ras_Older: ^^ |
| 21:19.28 | Sicelo | what's the camera problem? don't get that part ... |
| 21:21.37 | stryngs | Sicelo: When i go to view my pictures, I have to choose the folder |
| 21:21.46 | stryngs | Sicelo: It happens whenever u mod the basic hdd layout for some darn reason |
| 21:22.16 | stryngs | It's a "non-issue" but worth mentioned so people aren't freaked out like "zOMG, stryngs is an idiot and broke my Carl Zeiss!" |
| 21:22.49 | stryngs | Sicelo: In truth, it's probably fixable via a gconf command of sorts I bet... |
| 21:23.55 | Sicelo | i resized my 32GB years ago and never had camera issues. :-/ |
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| 21:25.25 | Sicelo | anyway ... |
| 21:34.39 | Jack64 | I got stryngs' version running on my N900 and I can confirm those issues |
| 21:34.48 | Jack64 | might be fixable though.. |
| 21:35.00 | Jack64 | also I like his idea |
| 21:35.00 | stryngs | Just need smart folks to pull together and invent something..... =) |
| 21:35.31 | Jack64 | and I can contribute some debs to the hacker-n900 meta repo if you'll take 'em |
| 21:36.01 | stryngs | Can you code though Jack64 ? =) |
| 21:36.03 | stryngs | grins |
| 21:36.59 | Jack64 | smiles |
| 21:51.22 | Ras_Older | stryngs: Your idea makes sense to me. The only current "issue" to get this thing rolling is to agree what exactly would be the base package. After that its just choosing what goes to which metapackage afaik. |
| 21:52.30 | Ras_Older | Although I must say that I have never had proper time to truly understand how that optifying actually works :D |
| 21:54.16 | stryngs | Ras_Older: afaik, it moves stuff to opt, and then symlinks |
| 21:54.48 | stryngs | Ras_Older: It sucks because, I don't like doing that; I shouldn't have to "optify" to make my n900 work. dpkg -i & go is my opinion |
| 21:57.59 | Ras_Older | Agreed on that.. |
| 21:58.16 | stryngs | Ras_Older: Truth be told though; the tricks I use aren't required for this idea. It just gave me a place to discuss em is all. The main thing is the creation of an "image" |
| 22:02.56 | Jack64 | so all that is needed is a list of base stuff? that should be simple enough |
| 22:03.53 | Ras_Older | But where to draw the line for what that includes? |
| 22:04.08 | Jack64 | some debate is to be expected on some stuff |
| 22:04.12 | stryngs | ^^ |
| 22:04.24 | stryngs | The "base" approach should be the bare minimum, period. |
| 22:04.25 | stryngs | imho. |
| 22:04.38 | stryngs | If you want dev tools, dev-meta |
| 22:05.01 | Jack64 | but what is the bare minimum? do you have a list already stryngs? |
| 22:05.03 | stryngs | This will keep minimalists like KotCzarny willing to contribute. |
| 22:05.08 | stryngs | I do Jack64 |
| 22:05.12 | stryngs | It's in your hand |
| 22:05.19 | Jack64 | hehe |
| 22:05.23 | Jack64 | I like it |
| 22:05.34 | stryngs | It needs work though, evidently speedpatch is stupid |
| 22:05.38 | stryngs | Yet, u and i both have it... |
| 22:05.40 | *** join/#maemo robink_ (~quassel@unaffilated/robink) |
| 22:05.44 | stryngs | he said/ she said nonsense... |
| 22:05.49 | Jack64 | right |
| 22:06.10 | Ras_Older | Yes but what is minimum here? Is it that devide boots to desktop and absolutely nothing else? Does it have basic connectivity capabilites like internet browsing etc. |
| 22:06.14 | Jack64 | you should make it a real list though, so people can start chiming in |
| 22:06.16 | stryngs | Jack64: Truth be told, I'm sure we could slim it down even further than what script-1.sh does tbh. |
| 22:06.44 | stryngs | Jack64: I'm going to do that this weekend, flashing to stock. |
| 22:07.06 | stryngs | Ras_Older: Bare minimum in my mind, would be taking the n900, purging all nonsense from it: facebook, games, etc... |
| 22:07.09 | Jack64 | well I suggest all hardware should be installed and ready to use |
| 22:07.18 | stryngs | Ras_Older: But not so bare minimum as to remove the file manager |
| 22:07.38 | Jack64 | ^^ |
| 22:07.57 | stryngs | Jack64: When I flash to stock this weekend, I'm going to dpkg --list and notate whats there, then compare against script-1.sh and what it purges, start making my list from there. |
| 22:08.10 | Ras_Older | Yeah exactly so and there must be some packages that will need voting as what stays and what goes |
| 22:08.10 | stryngs | Stock pr1.3 everything works |
| 22:08.16 | stryngs | Ras_Older: Agreed |
| 22:08.27 | stryngs | Ras_Older: Also, some packages, are hard to come by |
| 22:08.30 | Jack64 | yep sounds good |
| 22:08.38 | stryngs | Ras_Older: afaik, if u apt-get purge em, they're gone, gotta reflash to get em back. |
| 22:08.53 | Ras_Older | Oh, okeyyy I didn't actually know that :D |
| 22:08.55 | stryngs | Part of the "nokia" issue |
| 22:08.56 | ZetaR | stryngs: I really like the proposal. I have one question: could the filesystem layout / installation be set up with LUKS/cryptsetup in mind? AFAIK, right now you need to move your installation to the microSD in order to encrypt it. I am not saying "install with encryption by default", but rather "encryption is possible without major filesystem changes". |
| 22:09.22 | stryngs | ZetaR: MicroSD works great for those who can use it, me though, my reader is busted. |
| 22:09.53 | stryngs | ZetaR: However, I like the "option" and it wouldnt be hard to give a user the option in the "install script" either. Chose A for encryption, B for normal |
| 22:10.11 | stryngs | ZetaR: If pivoting was done, the whole filesystem will work on the SD card. |
| 22:10.22 | stryngs | ZetaR: There are so many possibilities with the n900 |
| 22:11.08 | ZetaR | What do you mean by "pivoting"? |
| 22:11.31 | stryngs | Boot normally, and at some point in the process you are chrooted over to your sd card with full / layout on the sd card |
| 22:11.38 | Ras_Older | Weren't there some issues back in the day with full encryption of the file system? Can't remember for sure but I just recall something that it was problematic at the time atleast. |
| 22:11.44 | stryngs | ZetaR: Almost like my rbind mount tricks, but fully /'d on SD |
| 22:11.54 | ZetaR | Ah, okay. I haven't heard that word used for that before. |
| 22:12.15 | stryngs | ZetaR: I stopped entertaining the idea with the Pwnie guys after we settled on bind mounts |
| 22:13.10 | stryngs | Also, for those who contribute, HOW COOL would it be, if this takes off. To put your contributions on something like a resume. |
| 22:13.38 | stryngs | Blah blah... Helped to contribute to the Nokia n900 revitilazation process, Was intricate to doing x, y and z. 30,000 verified users. etc...... |
| 22:14.19 | stryngs | Also, for the fools crazy enough to spend the loot for the neo900 (myself included here), it'll be a good baseline for the neo. |
| 22:14.25 | ZetaR | I just think it would be great to start having Maemo "distros" outside of the default flash process. IMO, that is a major part of Linux that is missing on the N900. |
| 22:14.36 | stryngs | That's the gist ZetaR =) |
| 22:14.52 | Ras_Older | You know what would be truly great? Not having this ******* helpdesk job that tears your soul apart and to actually have time for projects like this one discussed today. To do something meaningful for a chance.. |
| 22:14.54 | stryngs | Jack64: Alright man, you did it; backing up my n900 and flashing |
| 22:15.04 | stryngs | Ras_Older: Where do u live? |
| 22:15.23 | Jack64 | stryngs: didmit? |
| 22:15.31 | Jack64 | did it*? |
| 22:15.34 | Ras_Older | In the North where winter is coming... Finland, Jyväskylä. |
| 22:15.43 | stryngs | u mentioned baseline packages; to get it, i must flash =) But, imho, your idea IS the first step towards this. |
| 22:16.01 | stryngs | Ah, nvm; was going to offer you a job if u had the experience, but it's uhm, a puddle jump away |
| 22:16.14 | Jack64 | yep, let's go for it :) |
| 22:16.17 | Ras_Older | Ah yes the little pond in between us? |
| 22:16.22 | stryngs | Yep |
| 22:16.29 | stryngs | apt-get install puddlejump |
| 22:16.40 | Jack64 | hey I want that too |
| 22:16.50 | stryngs | nope, it's all mine! |
| 22:17.00 | stryngs | puddlejump --Amsterdam |
| 22:17.08 | stryngs | shoots up and hits the red light district |
| 22:17.20 | Jack64 | haha meet you there |
| 22:17.25 | stryngs | =) |
| 22:17.41 | Jack64 | stryngs: how about CCC? |
| 22:18.01 | stryngs | I'd love to visit that. |
| 22:18.25 | Jack64 | time to save up |
| 22:18.32 | Jack64 | or pwn united for miles |
| 22:18.36 | Jack64 | haha |
| 22:18.37 | stryngs | I'm more worried about bsidescharleston |
| 22:18.39 | stryngs | fuck united |
| 22:18.41 | Ras_Older | Same here. Was just today talking about it with my gf that we would want to go check it out. |
| 22:18.41 | stryngs | grumbles |
| 22:19.02 | Ras_Older | about CCC that is |
| 22:19.18 | ZetaR | stryngs: Another thought: It might be a good idea to have some sort of diagnostic/CLI mode possible with a MMC/partition problem. Some of the things moved around (e.g. /lib) will break basic systems and CLI utilities if the MMC is unavailable (unless they are statically linked). |
| 22:19.29 | stryngs | ZetaR: Already done |
| 22:19.38 | stryngs | ZetaR: Backup menu && ssh && go |
| 22:19.48 | stryngs | ZetaR: Used it when i was first figuring out how to rbind mount |
| 22:20.16 | stryngs | ZetaR: As it stands now, the dirs you see in that post; 100% stable |
| 22:20.21 | ZetaR | Okay, so that works with /lib and /sbin being moved? |
| 22:20.24 | stryngs | ZetaR: It's things like /etc I'm curious of |
| 22:20.39 | stryngs | ZetaR: 100% |
| 22:20.45 | ZetaR | Cool. |
| 22:20.46 | Jack64 | Ras_Older: how much is a CCC ticket? |
| 22:21.08 | Jack64 | I'd love to go too |
| 22:26.08 | Ras_Older | I'm not sure about that but for me the travel & accommodation will be way more than the actual ticket :D |
| 22:26.26 | Jack64 | no ryanair over there? |
| 22:26.49 | Jack64 | accomodation might be pricy tho |
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| 22:31.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~optification |
| 22:31.08 | infobot | optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3" |
| 22:32.45 | Jack64 | damn looks like 31C3 is sold out |
| 22:33.01 | *** join/#maemo filosofem_ (~filosofem@5.18.82.241) |
| 22:33.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: why not do it the FHS way and mount /usr from eMMC? |
| 22:36.05 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Not following, plz elaborate? |
| 22:36.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and get rid of all that /opt nonsense |
| 22:36.24 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I did get rid of the /opt nonseense |
| 22:37.02 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Lines 64-69 of the proposal |
| 22:37.37 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Only "requirement" is neutralizing pymaemo-optify, which is hardcode "Depended" to a lot of files. |
| 22:38.02 | stryngs | 64-68 rather, disregard 69 |
| 22:38.22 | stryngs | mmmm 69 =) |
| 22:42.06 | stryngs | Whoa....... The following directories, or symbolic links to directories, are required in /. |
| 22:42.11 | stryngs | It mentions /etc |
| 22:42.12 | stryngs | ! |
| 22:42.18 | stryngs | And var... |
| 22:42.36 | stryngs | wants to perform open heart surgery on his n900 tonight |
| 22:48.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's all bindmounts |
| 22:48.46 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Right, are you saying there is a true better FHS way? |
| 22:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | get a eMMS partition for /usr |
| 22:49.21 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: What about /lib /sbin, etc..? |
| 22:49.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | those should stay on /, according to FHS |
| 22:50.21 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: But then we have to worry about .debs filling up / |
| 22:50.26 | stryngs | i.e. things under /etc |
| 22:51.11 | stryngs | Not that you would ever have that many configuration files, but it could happen with X ammnt of .debs |
| 22:51.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | why's that? any decent deb that's not relevant for emergency-booting into singleuser mode is supposed to live in /usr/* |
| 22:51.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | and /etc should be small |
| 22:51.47 | stryngs | So you're a fan of /usr/etc stuff then |
| 22:51.58 | stryngs | I've read FHS a couple times, but it can be mindnumbing |
| 22:52.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# du -hs /etc |
| 22:52.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | 6,4M /etc |
| 22:52.23 | stryngs | ! |
| 22:52.25 | stryngs | 7.3m here |
| 22:52.30 | stryngs | wow, i underestimated |
| 22:52.42 | stryngs | over rather |
| 22:52.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's quite small enough for a 200MB rootfs |
| 22:53.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | FHS is about decent system 'architecture" |
| 22:53.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 |
| 22:54.16 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: ./configure --prefix=/usr, that mostly will conform to FHS for a decent program, yes? |
| 22:55.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE18 |
| 22:55.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, seems to me that's correct |
| 22:56.35 | stryngs | Mmmmkay. so DocScrutinizer05, to get eMMC partition for /usr, what's the method? |
| 22:56.52 | *** join/#maemo Kabouik (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net) |
| 22:57.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have a few critters that are in /usr/sbin or /usr/libs etc despite they are needed during early boot. Nokia ignored the fuckup and made that optification botch while keeping /usr/sbin et al on rootfs. The correct fix is to move those packahes from /usr/*/* to /*/* |
| 22:59.05 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Without being a certified linux sysadmin, how do we figure out which ones they are? |
| 22:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: I guess we could hack the config file in VANILLA that makes softupd or what's the name create the partitions on eMMC |
| 22:59.14 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: This is also why I never went further with the bindmount hack |
| 22:59.42 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: I don't know enough about initial bootup of linux, to determine what's truly needed, or I would have moved everything to ext3 possible. |
| 23:00.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: there are ways to trace which files in /usr/sbin et al are getting accessed at which point during boot |
| 23:00.36 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: As a good starting point, if I gave you a list of packages that come on stock pr1.3, could you point out which ones are not needed from a "bloat" perspective? |
| 23:01.05 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: i.e. imho, facebook is bloat |
| 23:01.30 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: At the same time, I don't want to call X bloat, and it be a truly needed package that I just don't know about |
| 23:01.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | a funny one was gstreamer plugins or somesuch getting optified and that resulted in audio permanently broken since during boot the shaking hands video couldn't load the plugin and that was sticky |
| 23:02.06 | stryngs | murdered the shaking hands video |
| 23:02.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | me too |
| 23:02.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | see |
| 23:02.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools |
| 23:02.18 | infobot | [jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
| 23:02.54 | stryngs | All the stuff you #'d, thats due to CSSU invoking it, no? |
| 23:03.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I could point to a few packages that are not strictly needed in a base config |
| 23:03.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | like modest, and a dozen other apps and stuff |
| 23:03.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, most of it |
| 23:03.45 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: Ok. I gotta wrap up here and head home. Got some backups I need to do, but I'll be stock flashing tonight and have a list handy soon |
| 23:03.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | it comes with CSSU now |
| 23:05.33 | stryngs | DocScrutinizer05: To verify we're on same page. The files I currently flash with are: |
| 23:05.36 | stryngs | RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 23:05.40 | stryngs | RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 23:05.57 | stryngs | ^^ Again, I'm asking because there are evidently other options I could have gone with. |
| 23:12.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | go with ~flashing |
| 23:12.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~flashing |
| 23:12.42 | infobot | i heard maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh |
| 23:13.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess what? I dunno the exact filenames anymore, since I coded them into that script ;-) |
| 23:13.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr131 |
| 23:13.40 | infobot | combined is probably the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ |
| 23:13.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr13 |
| 23:13.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr1.3 |
| 23:13.59 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update |
| 23:14.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | stryngs: get http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz |
| 23:15.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's tiny, and convenient |
| 23:16.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can also have a look into the script in http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir |
| 23:16.25 | *** part/#maemo Kabouik (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net) |
| 23:16.27 | *** join/#maemo Kabouik (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net) |
| 23:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir/flash-it-all.sh |
| 23:32.44 | *** join/#maemo lxp (~lxp@unaffiliated/lxp) |
| 23:42.38 | stryngs | Word, DocScrutinizer05 grabbing those files. I'm hoping everythign aligns, I already have a stock_debs file handy from previous work. Let me grab yer stuff and see what ya got |
| 23:44.49 | stryngs | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz 404 error |
| 23:45.36 | stryngs | but... Indexing is on |
