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| 02:35.30 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 05:25.39 | Oksana | sixwheeledbeast: Yes, I got later version from extras-devel. http://maemo.org/packages/view/strace/ The one in SDK links to maemo5.0 repository - is it normal, or not? Looks like it's normal, just the naming is a tad confusing: Fremantle SDK vs maemo5.0 |
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| 08:29.34 | L29Ah | https://git.kernel.org/cgit/network/ofono/ofono.git/log/ i wonder what devices are they targeting |
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| 08:47.54 | bencoh | https://git.kernel.org/cgit/network/ofono/ofono.git/tree/drivers/isimodem rings a bell ? ;) |
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| 09:04.13 | L29Ah | mkay, i got qemu-user working on a haswell thing; screw distcc, screw musl, all hail paludis |
| 09:04.38 | L29Ah | tho the glibc patch from easydebian doesn't look promising |
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| 10:20.27 | L29Ah | yeah the patch doesn't work for 2.20 |
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| 12:47.32 | JamesJRH | Hello. |
| 12:47.47 | JamesJRH | Can I write Maemo programs in Haskell? |
| 12:48.04 | L29Ah | yeah if you succeed at compiling ghc |
| 12:48.41 | JamesJRH | Okay, so basically if I compile GHC for ARM, I'm good? |
| 12:49.15 | bencoh | roughly (apart from the potentially missing sw deps) |
| 12:49.18 | Wizzup | JamesJRH: maemo is just debian linux with some added bits |
| 12:49.22 | L29Ah | for a particular arm for a particular glibc for a particular float abi |
| 12:49.36 | JamesJRH | Okay. |
| 12:49.40 | Wizzup | the n900 does neon doesn't it |
| 12:49.45 | L29Ah | ~scratchbox |
| 12:49.45 | infobot | it has been said that scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB |
| 12:49.45 | bencoh | it does |
| 12:49.47 | L29Ah | it does |
| 12:49.51 | Wizzup | then just target armhf neon |
| 12:49.54 | Wizzup | not too hard |
| 12:49.54 | L29Ah | JamesJRH: â |
| 12:50.00 | bencoh | Wizzup: no hf |
| 12:50.04 | Wizzup | what |
| 12:50.05 | bencoh | maemo is softfp |
| 12:50.27 | Wizzup | well, you can run armhf binaries on the maemo kernel in a chroot at least, afaik, but ACK @ softfp |
| 12:50.30 | Wizzup | tmyk |
| 12:51.26 | JamesJRH | L29Ah: Cool!!! |
| 12:52.16 | JamesJRH | L29Ah: That could help me in trying to port NixOS to ARM maybe (for the BeagleBone Black, initially). |
| 12:52.21 | L29Ah | report your results, i wondered about ghc on maemo as well |
| 12:52.35 | L29Ah | port nixos to openrc plz :] |
| 12:53.17 | JamesJRH | What's that? |
| 12:53.18 | bencoh | checking for ghc... no |
| 12:53.19 | bencoh | configure: error: GHC is required. |
| 12:53.23 | bencoh | trying to build ... ghc. |
| 12:53.57 | bencoh | I dont like the sound of it |
| 12:54.01 | bencoh | and it's not even funny |
| 12:54.15 | L29Ah | yeah you need ghc to build ghc |
| 12:54.20 | L29Ah | because it is written in ghc |
| 12:54.43 | bencoh | yeah, but ... not including a way to build a minimal ghc to bootstrap it is silly |
| 12:54.57 | JamesJRH | L29Ah: Okay, that's not something I'd be able to do. I'm a novice. You could ask on the nix-dev mailing list if you want OpenRC support. |
| 12:54.59 | L29Ah | you can cross-bootstrap it |
| 12:55.17 | bencoh | L29Ah: sure, but meh |
| 12:55.19 | JamesJRH | I know practically nothing about init systems. |
| 12:55.23 | bencoh | wont work with scratchbox |
| 12:56.04 | L29Ah | why not? |
| 12:56.15 | bencoh | wont work with autobuilder* |
| 12:56.16 | L29Ah | https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/CrossCompilation |
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| 13:13.55 | JamesJRH | 12:49:18 < Wizzup> JamesJRH: maemo is just debian linux with some added bits â Sure, but what I'm not so sure about it how to move beyond console applications written in Haskell. What APIs is a âMaemo applicationâ allowed to assume, and how to I interface those from Haskell? |
| 13:14.29 | L29Ah | anything that works on your device is allowed |
| 13:14.43 | L29Ah | maemo is dead so you shoudn't matter about such stuff ;) |
| 13:14.50 | L29Ah | s/matter/worry/ |
| 13:17.15 | JamesJRH | That's cool what infobot just did, though if it's going to take up an extra line, why not correct the full line in the first place? |
| 13:17.55 | L29Ah | in my brain or how? |
| 13:18.34 | bencoh | JamesJRH: cant do that with irc :) |
| 13:21.16 | JamesJRH | L29Ah: Like rather than me saying âs/APIs is/APIs are/â, only for infobot to then go and repeat the whole lot again, I could save a line by just doing it myself straight-off: ⦠What APIs are a âMaemo applicationâ allowed to assume, and how to I interface those from Haskell? |
| 13:21.17 | bencoh | JamesJRH: maemo's main GUI framework is hildon, which is heavily based on gtk |
| 13:21.24 | JamesJRH | Okay! |
| 13:21.31 | bencoh | qt4 is also available on the platform |
| 13:21.54 | JamesJRH | I see. Is Hildon preferred? |
| 13:21.55 | bencoh | (actually hildon is roughly gtk with some specific stuff) |
| 13:22.13 | bencoh | hildon is "native", and has a smaller memory footprint |
| 13:22.34 | JamesJRH | I remember now that at some point in the past there was a switch from Qt to Gtk. |
| 13:22.40 | JamesJRH | Okay. |
| 13:22.52 | bencoh | but a lot of apps use qt, so you can go for it as well |
| 13:22.59 | JamesJRH | I like Gtk. |
| 13:23.27 | bencoh | qt is the main framework for meego/harmattan |
| 13:24.36 | JamesJRH | Though even then, I haven't yet made a GUI application in Haskell in Gtk or anything, so I should probably start with a desktop Gtk application and then see if it'll work for Hildon, or what I need to do to make it work. |
| 13:25.28 | L29Ah | ah so you actually wanted to say "stfu" |
| 13:25.50 | JamesJRH | What? |
| 13:26.43 | JamesJRH | Oh. To what? |
| 13:26.49 | JamesJRH | To who, sorry? |
| 13:26.56 | JamesJRH | To infobot? |
| 13:27.33 | JamesJRH | I guess so. |
| 13:27.48 | JamesJRH | But I still think it was cool. :-] |
| 13:31.28 | JamesJRH | But I was saying that, if anything, it's actually easier to up-arrow and edit my previous message than to type âs/old thing/new thing/â, so I might as well do it myself, if the substitution is preferred, because, say, not everyone understand sed notation. |
| 13:31.49 | JamesJRH | understands* |
| 13:32.52 | JamesJRH | I only do the sed notation to avoid clutter; personally I'd rather edit the line. But then I guess this is just something I don't like about IRC. |
| 13:33.57 | JamesJRH | But there are many things I do like about IRC, otherwise I wouldn't have been using it for years. :-) |
| 13:35.13 | L29Ah | s/././g |
| 13:35.19 | L29Ah | ah so you actually wanted to say "stfu" |
| 13:35.20 | L29Ah | s/././g |
| 13:35.24 | L29Ah | infobot: come on |
| 13:36.48 | JamesJRH | What are you trying to do? Make it repeat everything? |
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| 13:40.37 | JamesJRH | Huh, I've just notice that there's another mistake in that corrected line (âhow to Iâ) that I could have corrected at the same time if I'd have seen it. I hate mistakes. >:-( |
| 13:41.03 | L29Ah | move to agda |
| 13:41.07 | JamesJRH | noticed* damn'[4~it! |
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| 13:42.28 | JamesJRH | I give up. My Internet's being too slow right now and using Irssi over SSH don't deal with bad Internet very well at all. |
| 13:42.56 | JamesJRH | doesn't* |
| 13:49.19 | JamesJRH | My WAN latency is averaging twice as long as normal right now, but with sustained peaks of a few seconds. It's probably just because I'm awake in the day for once, whereas I'm usually nocturnal. Looking at the pings, I can practically see when someone else on the network downloads something for a few seconds. :-/ |
| 13:50.46 | JamesJRH | Well, nearby in the network, that is; this side of wherever the bottleneck is. |
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| 13:58.10 | kerio | JamesJRH: might wanna try mosh |
| 13:58.51 | JamesJRH | So, in theory, I should be able to port NixOS to ARM for the Neo900, port Hildon and Dalvik to NixOS, and rewrite my application, Hexiano, in Haskell and Hildon. |
| 13:59.24 | JamesJRH | Sorry, this is following on from a conversation that started in #neo900. |
| 13:59.35 | JamesJRH | With some but not all people here. |
| 13:59.42 | JamesJRH | Hexiano is: https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.gitorious.jamesjrh.isokeys |
| 13:59.49 | JamesJRH | kerio: Yes, I plan to. |
| 14:00.13 | kerio | JamesJRH: anything that brings us away from scratchbox is welcome |
| 14:00.31 | L29Ah | why do you hate scratchbox? |
| 14:00.31 | JamesJRH | What? |
| 14:00.59 | JamesJRH | I was just told about Scatchbox, and, at a glance, it looks like a good thing. |
| 14:01.12 | JamesJRH | Scratchbox* |
| 14:01.12 | kerio | if would be a good thing if it was even remotely maintained |
| 14:01.35 | kerio | a huge part of what it does is replicate the running environment of the n900 on a computer |
| 14:01.44 | kerio | which is something that we'd get "for free" with nix, right? |
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| 14:02.09 | L29Ah | huh? |
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| 14:02.23 | bencoh | not entirely true |
| 14:02.23 | L29Ah | you get this for free everywhere |
| 14:02.42 | L29Ah | with qemu-user (: |
| 14:02.56 | bencoh | and some work |
| 14:03.02 | kerio | *lots of work |
| 14:03.02 | bencoh | ("""some""") |
| 14:03.12 | bencoh | ;) |
| 14:03.16 | L29Ah | what work? |
| 14:03.21 | L29Ah | i don't see no work |
| 14:03.26 | kerio | whereas nix *guarantees* that you'll have the same versions of everything |
| 14:03.32 | bencoh | bringing everything together |
| 14:04.00 | L29Ah | like make a tarball and move it or what? |
| 14:07.17 | bencoh | L29Ah: toolchain integration (at the very least) |
| 14:07.42 | L29Ah | huh? |
| 14:08.04 | L29Ah | you have a toolchain available in virtually any distro |
| 14:08.24 | JamesJRH | kerio: I don't know how much that applies to architectures though unfortunately. I've met-up with the core Nix developers at the last 2 FOSDEMs and I'm not convinced about the determinism wrt. architectures. Nevertheless, Nicolas Pierron in particular advocates not cross-compiling, but I don't understand why cross-compiling has to be any worse than native. Scatchbox may be the missing piece here. |
| 14:08.48 | bencoh | it's not worse |
| 14:08.58 | bencoh | I strongly believe it's "better" by the way, but meh :) |
| 14:08.58 | JamesJRH | Scratchbox* |
| 14:09.13 | bencoh | I dont understand this "native build" trend |
| 14:09.34 | L29Ah | JamesJRH: check out http://exherbo.org/docs/multiarch.html (; |
| 14:09.52 | JamesJRH | bencoh: Me too, in terms of efficiency on another architecture. Are there other reasons for cross-compiling being better? |
| 14:10.02 | L29Ah | er, wrong link |
| 14:10.03 | L29Ah | http://exherbo.org/docs/multiarch-pr.html |
| 14:10.04 | bencoh | well I do understand that some people are lazy and dont want to mess with the complications of a crossbuild (and a suitable crossbuild system), and that now that they're given powerful devices, they just want to build on it, but ... |
| 14:10.08 | bencoh | still, *meh* |
| 14:10.26 | kerio | compiling *on* a n900 is definetely a lot more painful than compiling on a modern pc |
| 14:11.09 | L29Ah | yeah it's a stopper for modern huge C++ apps |
| 14:11.15 | bencoh | compiling on debian/n900 is slow, but "easy". compiling on maemo/n900 is slow and painful because SDK has never been integrated properly |
| 14:11.27 | bencoh | s/slow/dead slow/ |
| 14:13.02 | L29Ah | hmm, glibc-2.20 calls uname and looks if it sucks |
| 14:13.27 | L29Ah | and a gentoo ebuild says the 2.6.32 requirement is due to nptl |
| 14:13.35 | JamesJRH | 14:10:03 < L29Ah> http://exherbo.org/docs/multiarch-pr.html â Hey, yeah! Nix needs to catch-up in this area!!! Again, this could be the missing link. |
| 14:13.41 | L29Ah | i wonder if everything will break apart if i just remove it |
| 14:15.14 | bencoh | removing what ? |
| 14:15.21 | L29Ah | the check |
| 14:15.35 | bencoh | read the patches |
| 14:16.04 | L29Ah | i've read the url that was posted there, it's no good at worst or does effectively the same at best |
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| 15:24.17 | ecc3g | oh weird.. how is the earphone speaker connected on the n900, it looks like it's just touch contected to the main flex cable or something and not soldered? |
| 15:24.33 | ecc3g | s/contected/contacted/ |
| 15:28.20 | L29Ah | yeah it's on spring contacts |
| 15:28.47 | ecc3g | fsck this is probably why my earphone doesnt work anymore |
| 15:30.13 | ecc3g | "sounds" like a fairly common problem just like the usb port breaking. |
| 15:34.05 | L29Ah | sounds like a lot easier one |
| 15:38.27 | ecc3g | true |
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| 17:05.32 | kerio | ~pr131 |
| 17:05.33 | infobot | hmm... combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ |
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| 17:43.37 | sixwheeledbeast | Oksana: Probably not normal, (I would assume it should only be in SDK) but best to ask someone more in the know, fmg or merlin. |
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| 17:44.46 | sixwheeledbeast | looks at the time and realises it's probably 3am in Oksanaland |
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| 18:03.52 | ecc3g | my n900 has a few screws loose. |
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| 18:32.49 | L29Ah | zsh: segmentation fault chroot . /bin/bash |
| 18:32.49 | L29Ah | fuck yeah no free glibc-2.20 for me |
| 18:36.17 | L29Ah | 2.19 seems like the last one supporting older kernels |
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