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| 00:09.20 | M4rtinK | well, there are already dozens of Debian forks |
| 00:09.29 | M4rtinK | like Ubuntu :) |
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| 00:35.46 | Pali | M4rtinK: but there is no fork without systemd |
| 00:38.49 | M4rtinK | Pali: that is a good point |
| 00:39.34 | M4rtinK | Pali: but still, I think all the systemd hate recently is more or less a needless witchhunt |
| 00:40.06 | M4rtinK | Pali: and really dislike how they basically chased away the debian Systemd maintainer |
| 00:41.20 | Pali | M4rtinK: one thing is systemd itself and other is what happened in debian (and with systemd maintainer) |
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| 00:42.15 | Pali | and if there is a distribution without systemd I will switch to it |
| 00:42.49 | M4rtinK | any specific things about systemd you don't like ? :) |
| 00:43.38 | Pali | yes, first thing which I do not like is that it is big package of lot of applications which I do not need |
| 00:44.27 | Pali | in package with init daemon there is dhcp server... no thanks I do not need dhcp server on desktop |
| 00:45.21 | Pali | there is udev... again I want to use other netlink based event reciver |
| 00:46.29 | Pali | binary logs in non ACID database... I think that I do not need to comment this stupid idea |
| 00:46.53 | Pali | massive paralelism... ehm... I do not need this on my server |
| 00:52.13 | M4rtinK | indeed, I think some would appreciated it to be split to more packages |
| 00:52.26 | M4rtinK | it is built from quite distinct components anyway |
| 00:53.20 | M4rtinK | hmm, the main package seems to have about 12 MB |
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| 00:54.15 | M4rtinK | not small, but at least storage vise not problematic |
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| 00:56.37 | M4rtinK | as for the dhcp server, I guess that is probably for containers/VMs ? if you don't have those it would indeed be useless |
| 00:58.22 | M4rtinK | as for udev - that has some serious architectural issues in itself that one can't really blame on systemd (huge event spam when you have a lot of devices, race conditions, etc.) |
| 00:59.08 | M4rtinK | as for the binary logs - works good enough for me so far and I really like the systemd - journald integration |
| 00:59.42 | M4rtinK | so you can do stuff like journalctl -u <unit name> and get log messages from the given unit |
| 00:59.49 | M4rtinK | that is quite the time saver |
| 01:00.30 | Pali | I hate that idea of only one systemd and for everyone |
| 01:00.36 | M4rtinK | but it is not perfect for sure - IIRC when you enable compression, it does not compress whole log database files but individual records |
| 01:00.47 | M4rtinK | so it is not very effective |
| 01:00.48 | Pali | why they are forcing me to use only those systemd components? |
| 01:01.36 | M4rtinK | well, I would not really say they are forcing anyone |
| 01:01.58 | Pali | yes, they force me... lennart want to have systemd everywhere |
| 01:02.02 | M4rtinK | they just have some roadmap in mind and are working towards it |
| 01:02.05 | Pali | he already said that |
| 01:02.25 | Pali | I can understand that they create *stable* API for components and they provide one implementation of each component |
| 01:02.28 | M4rtinK | well, every developer wants his software everywhere |
| 01:02.36 | Pali | not every! |
| 01:03.05 | M4rtinK | or at least that it is widely used - that's kinda why most people are doing it in the first place |
| 01:03.10 | M4rtinK | in my opinion |
| 01:03.47 | M4rtinK | hmm, having an API between the component sounds good |
| 01:04.43 | M4rtinK | BTW, the components all talk over DBUS IIRC, but the API is probably not officially stable |
| 01:05.21 | Wizzup | of course not |
| 01:05.30 | Wizzup | that's part of the political trick |
| 01:05.33 | M4rtinK | of course that means more work for developers |
| 01:05.39 | sixwheeledbeast1 | ~uselessd |
| 01:05.44 | Pali | before systemd I was able to use any dhcp server, any http server, any init daemon, any udev-like program (which watch netlink), any other daemon... |
| 01:05.45 | Wizzup | don't document it, make heavy dependencies |
| 01:05.55 | Pali | now with systemd I'm forced to use only one |
| 01:05.59 | Wizzup | result: noone can compete with your ever changing api |
| 01:06.02 | M4rtinK | probably like the internal kernel API - it is not stable on purpose |
| 01:06.05 | sixwheeledbeast1 | covers all of the arguement against systemd |
| 01:06.11 | Wizzup | M4rtinK: no,no,no |
| 01:06.17 | Wizzup | that's completely different |
| 01:06.31 | Wizzup | there no competing internal kernel apis, makes no sense |
| 01:06.34 | M4rtinK | sixwheeledbeast1: those are the people rewriting unit files back into init scripts ? |
| 01:06.37 | Wizzup | there are* |
| 01:07.23 | sixwheeledbeast1 | ~systemd |
| 01:07.24 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced the linux kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or see http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ |
| 01:10.36 | M4rtinK | at least uselessd & OpenRC are doing something to demonstrate their case |
| 01:11.31 | M4rtinK | but most of the hate feels kinda like unsubstantiated trolling |
| 01:12.43 | M4rtinK | or outright "we like something because it is not systemd" not "we like something because it does X better than systemd" |
| 01:14.19 | sixwheeledbeast1 | boycottsystemd also explains the issues well. I think the issue is not just systemd, more the fact there is no option to run something else. |
| 01:14.51 | M4rtinK | well I see two options: 1) keep the old thing 2) develop an alternative |
| 01:15.17 | sixwheeledbeast1 | I would rather ubuntu stick with upstart myself |
| 01:15.38 | sixwheeledbeast1 | It's not like there aren't other init options. |
| 01:17.55 | M4rtinK | sure, but then you have to keep maintaining it |
| 01:18.07 | M4rtinK | as more or less only user |
| 01:18.34 | M4rtinK | and the Canonical CLA might prevent some people from contributing to it |
| 01:29.08 | sixwheeledbeast1 | upstart was the way forward before systemd, fedora used upstart for a short period. So would you prefer that systemd took over so everybody contributed to one init system? |
| 01:30.53 | M4rtinK | IIRC there were talks between the future Systemd devs and the Upstart devs about contributing to Upstart |
| 01:31.04 | M4rtinK | but it was blocked by the canonical CLA |
| 01:31.18 | M4rtinK | so a separate project (systemd) was started |
| 01:31.41 | M4rtinK | BTW, upstart was the init in fedora before systemd IIRC |
| 01:31.54 | M4rtinK | and is till the init used in RHEL6, 7 has systemd |
| 01:38.44 | sixwheeledbeast1 | maybe this was to stop upstart becoming upstartd :P |
| 01:41.44 | M4rtinK | BTW, there is a discussion about the system & upstart CLA situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7639714 |
| 01:42.35 | M4rtinK | looks like I remembered it correctly :) |
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| 12:52.34 | sec | Is there an update OpenSSH package lying around with someone? |
| 12:54.28 | freemangordon | sec: update as in? |
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| 12:55.09 | freemangordon | as in CSSU there is openssh with some CVEs fixed |
| 12:55.19 | freemangordon | oh, wai |
| 12:55.33 | freemangordon | there is openssl :), my bad |
| 12:56.39 | sec | Yep, no OpenSSH |
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| 13:03.05 | sec | Dropbear is still at a slightly updated version, but no SFTP with it :( |
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| 13:28.06 | NIN101 | yeah, you must compile openssh yourself. |
| 13:28.14 | NIN101 | for an updated version |
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| 13:38.21 | sec | It spews out erros about OpenSSL headers that I can't get my head around atm |
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| 15:13.27 | Wizzup | is happy he finally got sip to work decently on the n900 |
| 15:13.33 | Wizzup | iptel works quite well |
| 15:13.41 | Wizzup | (iptel.org) |
| 15:14.13 | Openbot | Wizzup: great |
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| 15:19.25 | Sicelo | :) |
| 15:19.54 | Sicelo | iirc (of the major ones), only ekiga doesn't work on N900 |
| 15:20.19 | Openbot | Sicelo why ? |
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| 15:21.13 | Sicelo | something about REGISTER command .. see their wiki .. they mention it as well |
| 15:21.33 | Sicelo | actually i did get ekida to work, but that was only once and thereafter it never worked |
| 15:22.04 | Openbot | Any internet telephony that provides free calls to ph numbers or ultra cheap ? |
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| 15:24.04 | Sicelo | Openbot: you got me confused there .. i'm talking about Ekiga.net sip service |
| 15:25.31 | Openbot | Sicelo ah m asking if anything that provides cheap calls to regular numbers |
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| 15:37.49 | Wizzup | Sicelo: Yeah I mainly tried ekiga... |
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| 17:13.44 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 20:20.25 | bencoh | freemangordon: have you tried maemo with omapdrm (kms) ? |
| 20:21.02 | sec | \o bencoh |
| 20:21.54 | bencoh | o/ |
| 20:23.19 | bencoh | sec: regarding your irssi-perl package, try building on current irssi debsrc, and once everything works (no regression :) contact current maintainer, and push to extras-devel |
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| 20:41.22 | sec | Everything works! I'll get in touch with the dev. Lets hope he's active. |
| 20:42.01 | Sicelo | didn't look like. iirc i tried to contact him. |
| 20:42.04 | Sicelo | but do check :) |
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