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| 03:58.48 | jon_y | I got some 2450 mAh batteries, I remember the N900 needs some hacks in order to properly use the capacity |
| 03:58.58 | jon_y | anybody remember it? |
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| 08:12.06 | *** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet |
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| 08:59.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: never heard of hacks needed |
| 08:59.51 | rZr | hi DocScrutinizer05 |
| 09:00.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | you will need several learning cycles for bq27200 to calibrate it to the new battery capacity. But then bq27200 is mostly irrelevant and orphaned |
| 09:00.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi RzR |
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| 09:10.47 | jonwil | hi |
| 09:12.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi jonwil |
| 09:12.39 | APic | goldkatze: *plush* |
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| 10:23.12 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it's not orphaned if you use pali's stuff |
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| 10:50.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | hm? |
| 10:51.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, my context stack got cleared since whatever you refer to |
| 10:51.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah |
| 10:51.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, pali's "bme" is using bq27200 |
| 10:53.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas it seems it's sometmes relying on bq27200 a tad too much |
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| 11:43.07 | goldkatze | APic: :-) |
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| 12:19.34 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: untrue :v |
| 12:19.47 | kerio | hell, it relies on it too little |
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| 12:20.10 | kerio | it "prefers" the bogus data from rx51-battery if it's available |
| 12:25.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe. I haven't had a too close look into all that |
| 12:27.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's agree on "it doesn't care too much about status of data being bogus, irrespective of the data source"? |
| 12:31.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I seem to recall I suggested an embedded aka in-band flag for tagging probably bogus data, by e.g. setting least significant digit of capacity-now to an impair value (aka "set LSB to 1") |
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| 12:32.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | and vice versa set LSB to 0 as long as data source is considered accurate |
| 12:33.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc the reporting unit is µAh, so you could actually encode a 999 different error codes into least significant three decimals |
| 12:35.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | an "error" of 0.999mAh introduced by such sheme for sure is negligible |
| 12:35.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | scheme* |
| 12:37.04 | bencoh | mAh ? |
| 12:37.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ? |
| 12:37.21 | bencoh | hm nevermind, misread something |
| 12:41.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | a "educated" battery applet or whatever could use such in-band flag to adapt the capacity display accordingly - e.g. change color from green to yellow or orange when data source got reported as unreliable/bogus/inaccurate aka least significant bit = 1 |
| 12:42.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | while an "ignorant" stock battery applet will happily display the value no matter if LSB=1 or 0 |
| 12:43.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | with a tad of luck it shows the complete numeric value to user who then can get educated and see that this value is uneven |
| 12:46.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | while such approach isn't exactly nice and clean, it has a big advantage of being 100% backward compatible |
| 12:46.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | and doesn't introduce any nasty API changes |
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| 14:29.53 | jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: can the stock n900 battery manager work with the 2450mAh batteries? |
| 14:31.25 | kerio | "work with" |
| 14:31.45 | kerio | it's not like the standard fuel gauge is better than an educated guess |
| 14:37.04 | jon_y | kerio: I mean I can at least tell when it needs charging |
| 14:37.11 | jon_y | or when it is full |
| 14:37.15 | kerio | i guess so, yeah |
| 14:37.23 | kerio | it should detect when it's full |
| 14:37.42 | kerio | it will probably show it's a lot emptier than it actually is, however |
| 14:38.23 | jon_y | hmm ok, will it kill the battery when charged way too often? |
| 14:42.25 | kerio | it shouldn't |
| 14:42.31 | kerio | but, you know |
| 14:42.39 | kerio | you lose the benefits of the bigger battery |
| 14:45.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | basicaly no *real* problems with bigger battery |
| 14:46.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | your battery remaining capacity indicator might be terribly off, but that doesn't have any impact on neither charging nor discharging to empty |
| 14:46.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | worst case you get recurring "battery empty" warnings for hours |
| 14:47.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | which can annoy a lot but usually doesn't really break anything |
| 14:47.12 | bencoh | sounds terrible :D |
| 14:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | both charging termination as well as system shutdown on battery empty are based on monitoring the voltage of the battery, and that will work regardless of the battery capacity that any chip estimates |
| 14:51.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | (charging termination actually gets detected from charging current the battery takes. When charging current drops under a certain threshold, the bq24150 charger chip detects that and changes state and operation mode to "battery full")) |
| 14:51.59 | jon_y | well, I like to have some emergency backup :) |
| 14:52.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
| 14:52.11 | jon_y | so empty battery doesn't actually mean empty |
| 14:53.13 | jon_y | I guess charge time would also take longer |
| 14:53.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, of course |
| 14:53.34 | kerio | jon_y: just calibrate bq27k |
| 14:53.43 | kerio | and install the bme replacement |
| 14:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: or don't |
| 14:54.32 | kerio | do eeet |
| 14:54.55 | jon_y | does bq27k calibration affect software or hardware? |
| 14:55.02 | kerio | yes |
| 14:55.09 | jon_y | both? |
| 14:55.39 | kerio | neither, really |
| 14:55.49 | kerio | it can affect optional software |
| 14:56.02 | jon_y | just wondering if the calibration is permanent |
| 14:56.53 | kerio | nope |
| 14:56.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | bq27200 just monitors how much capacity the cell delivers, and it may store the amount of capacity delivered by battery when battery discharge voltage gets reached |
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| 14:57.06 | kerio | hardware-mandated deprecation |
| 14:57.17 | kerio | you're supposed to calibrate it ~regularly |
| 14:57.25 | jon_y | oh ok |
| 14:57.42 | jon_y | is that the script you run from a special boot up mode? |
| 14:57.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such thing like calibration, it just adapts its idea of how much capacity the battery might have |
| 14:57.55 | jon_y | or am I confused with something else |
| 14:58.05 | kerio | no no |
| 14:58.40 | kerio | calibration is just charging until full, then discharging until empty |
| 14:58.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:59.21 | kerio | D: |
| 14:59.31 | kerio | wat |
| 14:59.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | "calibration" just stores the measured capacity after a continuous discharge of a fully charged battery |
| 15:00.14 | jon_y | so, can I do this while keeping the phone online? |
| 15:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:00.37 | jon_y | oh ok, can't know when urgent calls come in |
| 15:01.00 | jon_y | where's the calibration script? |
| 15:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | it basically happens automatically, though often bme shuts down the device before battery got discharged far enough for bq27200 chip to detect full discharge |
| 15:01.48 | jon_y | how far off does the bq27200's idea of a full discharge go? |
| 15:01.58 | jon_y | 2000mAh? |
| 15:02.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | my script disables bme and waits for bq27200 to "learn", then re-enables bme so your phone's battery gets charged again |
| 15:02.13 | jon_y | iirc the stock batteris are ~1300mAh |
| 15:02.17 | kerio | EDV1 is assumed to be 6% of the full charge |
| 15:03.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you don't really need such script to make bq27200 learn. Eventually it will learn while you pretty normally use up your battery until phone shuts down |
| 15:03.58 | jon_y | oh, so I do have to wait for it to power off from low battery? |
| 15:04.21 | kerio | not necessarily |
| 15:04.29 | kerio | but it's the simplest way |
| 15:04.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, yes, when you don't use my script, that is the best and probably only way to make bq27200 learn the battery capacity eventually |
| 15:05.58 | jon_y | ok, where is the link to your script? |
| 15:06.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if there's maybe a trick to teach bq27200 about assumed capacity, via commands from software side |
| 15:06.28 | jon_y | ~bme |
| 15:06.28 | infobot | somebody said bme was http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME |
| 15:06.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/calibrate-bq27k.sh |
| 15:07.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | will need a few other packages |
| 15:07.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly |
| 15:07.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bq27k-detail |
| 15:07.48 | infobot | somebody said bq27k-detail was http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27k-detail2 |
| 15:08.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thatz one needs i2ctools |
| 15:08.23 | jon_y | ok, thanks |
| 15:08.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | and iirc they all need bash |
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| 15:09.03 | jon_y | are the 2 scripts similar? |
| 15:09.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh wait, prolly it needs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27200.sh |
| 15:09.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | which shouldn't need bash |
| 15:10.54 | jon_y | how do I use bq27200.sh? |
| 15:11.01 | jon_y | let it run in the background? |
| 15:11.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't need to "use it", the http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/calibrate-bq27k.sh does |
| 15:12.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can use it to read out the data from bq27200 chip in shell |
| 15:12.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | just invoke it |
| 15:12.47 | jon_y | fastcharger as in wallwart? |
| 15:12.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you give a numeric parameter then it will run in a loop with those seconds of delay |
| 15:13.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:13.21 | jon_y | ok |
| 15:14.20 | jon_y | right now, my stock battery lasts ~6 days if I squeeze it |
| 15:14.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's pretty decent |
| 15:14.56 | jon_y | probably 1.5 weeks with the new battery after calibration |
| 15:15.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | calibration doesn't change how long the battery lasts |
| 15:15.33 | jon_y | well, at least it won't be mistakenly shutdown :) |
| 15:16.12 | jon_y | I do put the phone into offline mode during the night |
| 15:16.57 | dos1 | jon_y: it's never "mistakenly shutdown" |
| 15:17.22 | jon_y | < DocScrutinizer05> it basically happens automatically, though often bme shuts down the device before battery got discharged far enough for bq27200 chip to detect full discharge |
| 15:17.29 | jon_y | isn't that what doc warned? |
| 15:17.32 | dos1 | it's "mistakenly displaying 0% and low battery signs hours before shutdown" |
| 15:18.46 | dos1 | jon_y: that warning only holds during the calibration itself |
| 15:19.21 | jon_y | hmm ok, so basically, nothing to worry about once the chip is calibrated |
| 15:19.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: nope. The bq27200 needs a - say - 60 seconds of battery voltage below 3450mV to learn the new capacity of battery. However the battery must not drop to 3400mV during that time, or BME will shut down hard the complete device |
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| 15:20.11 | jon_y | that's a tiny margin |
| 15:20.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | so when you discharge "too fast" then the device may shutdown before the bq27200 has completed the learning cycle |
| 15:20.31 | jon_y | yes, that explains |
| 15:20.40 | dos1 | jon_y: calibration will only bring you more accurate percentage values - it won't change how long the battery lasts or when the device shutdowns |
| 15:20.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | the margin resp voltages are random ballpark numbers to explain what happens. They are defferent in reality |
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| 15:21.11 | jon_y | dos1: I know, I was under the impression that the chip misdetects the levels if not calibrated |
| 15:21.25 | jon_y | and thusly shut it down before it has discharged fully |
| 15:21.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, the shutdown done by BME is not even related to bq27200 afaik |
| 15:21.52 | dos1 | it does, but the shutdown is voltage based, so it's not related |
| 15:23.12 | jon_y | ok, bme is responsible to safe shutdown if voltages are too low |
| 15:23.30 | jon_y | but bq27200 is responsible for showing battery levels in the UI |
| 15:23.35 | jon_y | did I get that right? |
| 15:24.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:24.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically correct |
| 15:25.07 | jon_y | ok, thanks for the explanation |
| 15:25.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | for stock maemo. Pali's BME replacement may behave differently |
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| 15:26.15 | jon_y | uname says I'm on power52, not sure if that matters |
| 15:26.27 | jon_y | haven't upgraded in awhile |
| 15:26.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | (it's not exactly bme itself which shuts down, but some chain starting at bme and ending in some osso or hildon stuff, I guess) |
| 15:26.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter |
| 15:27.27 | jon_y | ok |
| 15:27.58 | jon_y | hopefully my n900 can last until the end of the decade |
| 15:30.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~usbfix |
| 15:30.14 | infobot | usbfix is, like, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL2862BF3631A5C1AA&feature=player_detailpage&v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1861, you will basically need two irons: a small good one and a 60+ Watt |
| 15:30.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | strongly recommended |
| 15:31.05 | jon_y | yeah, I heard of that, but opening up my phone is kind of risky |
| 15:31.27 | jon_y | the damned impossible to reconnect ribbon cables speak volumes |
| 15:32.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, connecting felx to that friggin 64pin B2B connector can be tricky |
| 15:32.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | flex* |
| 15:32.16 | jon_y | also, I'm too far from the UK :( |
| 15:34.35 | jon_y | I wonder if the USB receptacle walls actually do anything |
| 15:35.15 | jon_y | if not, we could just make a smaller USB connector that just fit over the pins inside |
| 15:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140721_002.mp4 should help a lot for not damaginbg the USB |
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| 15:36.08 | kerio | jon_y: haters gonna hate |
| 15:36.13 | kerio | install pali's bme, it's good |
| 15:36.37 | jon_y | kerio: link? :) |
| 15:36.48 | kerio | ~bmerep |
| 15:36.55 | kerio | nope |
| 15:37.52 | kerio | ~bme-replacement |
| 15:37.52 | infobot | i guess bme-replacement is http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/rx51-bme-replacement http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/projects/maemo/bme-replacement.html See also: http://wiki.maemo.org/Bme_replacement . Please, use wiki page to report bugs/problems and/or solutions to them! |
| 15:38.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I really dispise pali's habit to host such stuff on his own server |
| 15:38.51 | kerio | doctors gonna scrutinize |
| 15:40.13 | jon_y | kerio: more like if pali meets an accident someday or forgets to pay the bills, server is gone for good |
| 15:40.27 | kerio | nah, it's a university webserver |
| 15:40.34 | jon_y | all the dead links |
| 15:40.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | even worse |
| 15:40.47 | kerio | :D |
| 15:40.54 | jon_y | heh, that makes it even more iffy, uni can decide to pull the plug any time |
| 15:41.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 15:41.13 | kerio | meanwhile, acehack.de has 100% uptime |
| 15:41.23 | kerio | whenever i'm not dicking around with stuff |
| 15:42.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey, we got garage for stuff like some "pali's bme replacement" |
| 15:43.22 | kerio | well i think the source is on github at least |
| 15:43.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we got github or gitorious or whatever, for cssu related stuff |
| 15:44.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we got zilch backup strategy for some random university server |
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| 15:52.27 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: wget -r |
| 15:56.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? |
| 15:56.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | cat /dev/random |
| 15:56.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | fortune |
| 15:57.09 | Sicelo | https://gitorious.org/rx51-bme-replacement |
| 15:57.59 | Sicelo | :) |
| 15:58.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, then infobot is wrong |
| 15:58.27 | Sicelo | maybe this can be added to infobot |
| 15:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | ffor users to pick which is the right one? |
| 16:00.24 | Sicelo | i think those of us who don't know much about programming will benefit from Pali's uni page ... at least to get an idea what's going on |
| 16:01.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | why isn't it at http://rx51-bme-replacement.garage.maemo.org/ ? |
| 16:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh wait, prolly because it would rather go to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/jrbme/ ? |
| 16:08.24 | bencoh | "One step closer to a 100% free and open maemo" / 2010 ... that was optimistic :( |
| 16:11.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking // Racing around to come up behind you again. // The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, // Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. << |
| 16:12.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/day/step/ |
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| 17:44.38 | T_X | anyone having an idea how packages can vanish from extras-devel? |
| 17:44.56 | T_X | this package here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/sflphone-common/0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10/ |
| 17:45.10 | T_X | has a broken link to http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10_armel.deb |
| 17:45.55 | T_X | (and now I can't install sflphone, wanted to have a look at it) |
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| 18:40.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | this might be the result of devels using too leete special chars or versioning scheme in their packages (' names) |
| 18:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | eeerrrrrr nope, that's pretty simple: Old version cleaned by repository managementSystem2010-07-24 12:11 UTC |
| 18:42.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | watch http://maemo.org/packages/view/sflphone-common/ |
| 18:45.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | the pity is that the messing arond with package names made the autobuilder/ repository -management also clean the just built sflphone-common package |
| 18:47.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo1_armel.deb seems to exist |
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| 18:51.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo3_armel.deb also exists |
| 18:52.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's obviously the last one |
| 18:54.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean... |
| 18:54.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuild succeededSystem2010-07-24 11:42 UTC |
| 18:58.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo9Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuild succeededSystem2010-07-24 11:22 UTC |
| 18:58.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuildingSystem2010-07-24 11:36 UTC |
| 18:59.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo9Fremantle Extras-devel free armelPackage importedSystem2010-07-24 11:39 UTC |
| 18:59.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | A) is maemo10 really > maemo9 ? |
| 19:00.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | B) devels really shouldn't upload two versions in 10 minutes, so the older one got not imported yet while the newer once succeeds to build |
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| 19:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | slono, tztztz |
| 19:02.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then |
| 19:02.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | sflphone-commonFremantle Extras-devel free armelPackage importedSystem2011-12-02 14:43 UTC |
| 19:03.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | which seems to lack any proper versioning |
| 19:05.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess to clean up this mess you should start a new package sflphone-common2 |
| 19:09.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask merlin1991 what to do to sanitize this confusion |
| 19:09.36 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: every year is getting shorter |
| 19:09.42 | kerio | never seem to find the time |
| 19:09.55 | kerio | plans that either come to naught, or half a page of scribbled lines |
| 19:10.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | thought I'd something more to say |
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| 23:14.26 | bencoh | is there a hildon/gtk widget to display web content ? |
| 23:14.54 | bencoh | (to display web content in an app) |
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| 23:40.05 | dima5` | Is anybody still using an n900 with maemo as their main phone? I'm finding that the packages in the community APT repo now often have persistent issues, which makes sense since the user base isn't particularly high. Currently (and for the last few months) my n900 no longer has a working alarm clock. What does everybody do? Should I simply revert to some older set of packages and not touch them? |
| 23:49.36 | RiD | Everything seems to work here, except the FM transmitter in one of them |
| 23:49.54 | ecc3g | I just dont use many applications on my phone and yes it's my main phone... |
| 23:53.31 | bencoh | same here |
| 23:57.08 | dima5` | oh, that's interesting |
| 23:57.43 | dima5` | Maybe I'm simply seeing some bug that's not very common. There was a series of bad bugs, and I just assumed that this was the new normal |
| 23:58.23 | dima5` | I click on the clock on the desktop, the menu comes up. I click on "clock & alarms" and the alarm window simply doesn't come up. This works for yall? |
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