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| 10:55.18 | Sicelo | so i have just found that i can apply for a free 'unrestricted apn' from my operator, which allows incoming connections |
| 10:55.37 | Sicelo | noy sure if i should go for it or not :-/ |
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| 10:59.03 | Sicelo | i do have iptables running, allowing onlyincoming ssh traffic. ping is blocked |
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| 16:46.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: inbound traffic *always* makes moden answer on layer1 with an ACK (or NAK) aiui. Which means somebody cna keep your TX busy even with hammering on the door of closed ports |
| 16:47.25 | Sicelo | that's what has stopped me applying for now |
| 16:47.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | you seriously want to consider if you wanna do this |
| 16:48.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ideally your carrier allows you to configure the carrier-site NAT remotely, e.g. via uPnP |
| 16:49.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it's up to you and your apps to define which inbound traffic is welcome and which shall bounce at NAT already |
| 16:50.26 | Sicelo | nope. they just open up everything |
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| 16:52.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I duno of any carrier that offers this service. Unless you become your own carrier ;-), resp POP |
| 16:52.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | VPN to your own server |
| 16:52.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | NAT on server |
| 16:53.28 | Sicelo | anyway, i guess i'll let go of the offer for now |
| 16:53.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry? |
| 16:53.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | go for? |
| 16:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah let go |
| 16:54.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, prolly best |
| 16:54.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | though, you can change APNs as you like, unless it's an either-or offer |
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| 16:55.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I still have to wrap my head around what frals did for fmms alternative APNs |
| 16:56.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc usually a modem offers up to 4 concurrent/alternative AP configs, and you simply switch between them |
| 16:56.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I bet ISI doesn't support that, or at least libisi doesn't |
| 16:57.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I wonder if fmms actually reconfigures the modem each time it needs to access a MMS, and beck to default after it's done |
| 16:57.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | back even |
| 16:57.50 | Sicelo | which reminds me to check progress on http://elinux.org/N900 |
| 16:58.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | whicj reminds me I planned to have a walk in the big bluebox ~3h ago |
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| 18:56.58 | Tekk_ | is there some way to select multiple messages in the mail app? |
| 18:57.08 | Tekk_ | having to delete each individual message is a massive pain |
| 19:00.51 | freemangordon | Tekk_: ctrl-A |
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| 19:01.02 | freemangordon | and then start typing to filter |
| 19:01.51 | Tekk_ | hm |
| 19:01.56 | Tekk_ | I tried ctrl+a before and it didn't work |
| 19:02.04 | Tekk_ | just tried again(and ctrl+A), still nothing :/ |
| 19:02.16 | Tekk_ | looks like my inbox is refreshing though, I'll try again once that's finished |
| 19:04.24 | freemangordon | it works (ctrl-A) |
| 19:04.27 | freemangordon | :) |
| 19:04.37 | freemangordon | oh, wait |
| 19:04.55 | freemangordon | you should first select what you want to do (delete, move, etc) |
| 19:05.00 | Tekk_ | ah |
| 19:05.05 | freemangordon | and then ctrl-A |
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| 19:12.24 | Tekk_ | thanks freemangordon |
| 19:15.24 | freemangordon | np |
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| 20:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course deliting the whole damn database file was an alternative way |
| 20:55.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | deleting* |
| 20:56.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, mail, sorry |
| 20:56.22 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer: yes, but deleting the mail db would work as well :) |
| 20:56.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | NFC about modest and its db's and whatnot |
| 20:57.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | all I know is: mail body isn't stored in a db, unlike SMS body |
| 20:57.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 20:57.51 | Tekk_ | ah |
| 20:57.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | in HARM they allegedly changed that, a terrible idea |
| 20:58.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | poor friggin tracker |
| 20:58.14 | Tekk_ | oh, with all of the neo900 stuff are there any plans to improve maemo itself? |
| 20:58.20 | Tekk_ | maybe a new launcher which actually lets you search your apps |
| 20:58.27 | Tekk_ | (as I understand it the current one is proprietary, isn't it?) |
| 20:58.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr, dunno, shouldn't be too hatd to write a new one, this is braindead stuff afzer all |
| 20:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr, dunno, shouldn't be too hard to write a new one, this is braindead stuff after all |
| 20:59.21 | Tekk_ | okay |
| 20:59.47 | Tekk_ | is still torn between jolla and neo900 |
| 21:00.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | but as mentioned at several places, Neo900 group is strictly about hardware. It's the community - particularly FPTF - rthat takes care about porting (and maybe improving) maemo |
| 21:00.30 | Tekk_ | yeah |
| 21:00.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | jolla is fine when it's "free enough for you" |
| 21:01.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | they again do that "we provide it for you" nonsense. And they even CANNOT provide all it needs to at least reflash the device |
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| 21:02.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | not my way |
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| 21:03.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so much not my way that I even didn't bother yet to "root" my jolla device |
| 21:04.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. I can only tell you about its idiosyncrasies from hearsay. One of those hearsays is: it has 25 partitions of which only 5 are documented and FOSS |
| 21:04.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thus flashable |
| 21:05.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | nuke any of the other 20 and you're doomed |
| 21:05.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly this sounds almost worse than N9 |
| 21:06.52 | nox- | :( |
| 21:06.55 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: you actually have a jolla ? |
| 21:07.11 | bencoh | waitwaitwait o.O |
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| 21:07.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you say "as long as I may code my QML apps, I don't care what the system does" - then it's for sure a fine device for you |
| 21:08.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: yep, I do. As well as I got a N950, a N9, even a few winphones from ~6 years ago |
| 21:08.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never get around to sell any of them, since selling is too much hassle |
| 21:08.56 | bencoh | n950 I can understand why ;) |
| 21:09.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually for N950 I can't understand at all why I ignored/rejected those ~2k bucks a sale could have earned me |
| 21:10.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I also can't understand why I not already disassembled it to the bones |
| 21:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, why I not disassembled N9 |
| 21:10.41 | bencoh | because it is still a pretty nice thing after all ? :) |
| 21:10.45 | bencoh | oh, n9, yeah |
| 21:11.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | N950 disassmbly is no gain on any level, since it's a poorly tested hw and I can't learn much from it |
| 21:11.45 | bencoh | dont we have specs anyway ? |
| 21:11.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | then OTOH for N9 I have schematics, so... |
| 21:17.55 | Tekk_ | oh yeah, with qml writing a new launcher probably wouldn't be much of a pain at all |
| 21:18.03 | Tekk_ | relative to doing it in hildon at least |
| 21:23.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see any problem in "writing it in hildon" either |
| 21:24.17 | Tekk_ | not that it's problem, just that qml makes things a bit easier than writing it in C I imagine |
| 21:24.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually, I might be mistaken but I thought there actually already *are* alternative launchers |
| 21:24.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | for fremantle |
| 21:25.16 | Tekk_ | nice |
| 21:25.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | (qml vs C) that depends a lot on what you wanna do. dirt simple things are most simple in QML. Complex things are most complex and probably impossible in QML |
| 21:26.06 | Tekk_ | ah |
| 21:26.17 | Tekk_ | I've actually not had the chance to play with either yet. I only got the sdk set up recently :/ |
| 21:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tend to thin of QML coding like writing a webpage |
| 21:26.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | think* |
| 21:27.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure it's simple, as long as you don't need real good stuff |
| 21:27.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | you wouldn't code doom or whatever first person shooter in HTML, eh? |
| 21:27.38 | Tekk_ | mhm |
| 21:27.51 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer05: that would be a good example if people weren't doing exactly that these days :/ |
| 21:28.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, a pity |
| 21:28.10 | Tekk_ | you probably have to move to Rage |
| 21:28.17 | Tekk_ | since mozilla got unreal engine 3 working in js |
| 21:28.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | too many webcoders, too few real programmers |
| 21:28.50 | Tekk_ | hey, there can be hybrids at the fun intersections :P |
| 21:28.58 | Tekk_ | once wrote a web thing in assembly because a friend said that you couldn't |
| 21:29.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 21:29.52 | bencoh | :] |
| 21:29.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you can't do it in FORTRAN, do it in ASSEMBLER. When you ca't do it in assembler, it#s not worth getting done at all |
| 21:30.47 | Tekk_ | actually I have to say that assembly on linux is not bad at all |
| 21:30.54 | Tekk_ | it was more or less just C with more boilerplate |
| 21:31.03 | Tekk_ | and most of that boilerplate was because I was avoiding linking against libc :P |
| 21:31.26 | bencoh | int0x80 all the way |
| 21:31.30 | Tekk_ | yep |
| 21:31.41 | Tekk_ | writing all the string manipulation stuff from scratch was definitely fun |
| 21:32.01 | bencoh | wouldn't call that 'fun' but yeah :) |
| 21:32.12 | bencoh | (its fun for the first time) |
| 21:32.27 | Tekk_ | oh yeah, I'm sure it gets boring after your 5th time |
| 21:34.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you're writing such stuff 5 times, you should get punished by doing windows administration for at least 1 year |
| 21:34.36 | bencoh | noo~ |
| 21:34.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | without mouse, only keyboard |
| 21:35.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | even in assembler you can write modular and even OO code |
| 21:35.22 | bencoh | ahem |
| 21:35.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, the tools are not that great for doing so |
| 21:36.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | but macro assemblers been invented before anybody knew what's fortran |
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| 21:37.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | modern risk architecture makes it a tad more cumbersome to re-use code |
| 21:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | but basically it still works all the same |
| 21:41.05 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer05: I don't remember who |
| 21:41.11 | Tekk_ | but someone used to sell an "object-oriented" macro assembler |
| 21:41.20 | Tekk_ | borland maybe? |
| 21:41.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about real |
| 21:41.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | borland would be the first candidate for that |
| 21:41.54 | Tekk_ | https://monate.codeplex.com/ that's one |
| 21:42.37 | Tekk_ | can't seem to find the particular one he was looking for |
| 21:45.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | and after all c itself is a glorified assembler language ;-) |
| 21:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | writing c you almost can feel what the opcodes will be that will get generated by the compiler |
| 21:48.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | and some idiotic property of c is based on exactly this original principle of simply creating a opcode macro for ever c syntactical element |
| 21:49.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | think "case", think "for" loops |
| 21:50.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | think pointer arithmetic and arrays |
| 21:50.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | strings |
| 21:50.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | boolean errr |
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| 21:51.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wait for the moment when machine code is more advanced and abstract than c sourcecode. Then it gets really funny |
| 21:53.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | "sorry, c programs are really unbearably slow on this new architecture. The CPU executes native python code" |
| 21:53.17 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer05: it's already sort of like that |
| 21:53.32 | Tekk_ | mmx and stuff provide native vector things, for example |
| 21:53.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 21:53.46 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: :D |
| 21:53.53 | Tekk_ | plus your python cpu already sort of exists in the jazelle arm extension :) |
| 21:53.57 | Tekk_ | except that's java bytecode, not python |
| 21:54.09 | bencoh | it's almost the case for embedded jvm |
| 21:54.29 | Tekk_ | wonders why people haven't come out with that for dalvik yet |
| 21:54.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe because jazelle is broken crap? |
| 21:54.55 | bencoh | they dont ? |
| 21:55.02 | bencoh | I actually thought they did |
| 21:56.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess jazellle is like DMA in 486, the CPU does it faster natively than the DMA(/jazelle) controller can do it |
| 21:57.23 | bencoh | maybe |
| 21:58.43 | Tekk_ | :/ |
| 21:58.52 | Tekk_ | all of the nokia docs for qt4 on maemo are dead |
| 21:59.13 | RST38h | Which jazelle? |
| 21:59.22 | bencoh | arm jazelle jvm |
| 21:59.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | Tekk_: ouch |
| 21:59.37 | RST38h | There are multiple jazelles |
| 21:59.49 | RST38h | The original one, which was deprecated |
| 21:59.50 | Tekk_ | actually |
| 21:59.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | Tekk_: wondered when it will happen |
| 21:59.55 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer05: worse |
| 22:00.02 | RST38h | And the new one which is not exactly java cpu,afaik |
| 22:00.06 | Tekk_ | qt.nokia.com and trolltech.com are entirely gone |
| 22:00.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 22:00.48 | bencoh | RST38h: the "new" one as ThumbEE ? |
| 22:01.01 | RST38h | Also, it might be worth pondering on why you need a special "CPU" to run your designer language of choice, rather than switch to a real compiled language like C or C++ |
| 22:01.15 | RST38h | bencoh: correct |
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| 22:02.21 | bencoh | hmm, does maemo sdk works on wheezy (I don't care about the graphical part) ? |
| 22:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | RST38h: (compiled lang) that's what we came from, evetually the CPU intruction set will be more complex and abstract than C sourcecode |
| 22:02.58 | RST38h | Doc: Sorry, not getting your comparison. |
| 22:03.11 | bencoh | (wiki mentions squeeze) |
| 22:03.17 | RST38h | Doc: CPU ISA and C syntax are two completely different entities |
| 22:03.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.45 | RST38h | Doc: You can't call one more complex than the other because they essentially mean different things |
| 22:03.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | uhuh |
| 22:04.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | except for jazelle, right? |
| 22:04.17 | RST38h | Doc: Are you comparing them based on the number of keywords? Or the number of builtin functions? Or something else? |
| 22:04.19 | RST38h | Doc: No |
| 22:04.32 | RST38h | Doc: Jazelle is just that - a semi-hardware JVM |
| 22:04.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 22:04.46 | RST38h | Doc: But JVM byte code is not the same thing as Java |
| 22:05.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | dozble-meh |
| 22:05.12 | RST38h | Doc: It is a rather arbitrarily chosen stack-based ISA |
| 22:05.34 | RST38h | Doc: Which cannot be efficiently implemented in hw because whoever has chosen it did not target hw |
| 22:05.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I'm neither interested in an argument nor a lesson |
| 22:06.03 | RST38h | Doc: Well, it is a rather good example of how NOT to design an ISA :) |
| 22:06.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 22:06.22 | RST38h | Doc: + you can endlessly troll remaining Java adepts with it =) |
| 22:11.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you wanna argue with me, tell me what's so great about QML |
| 22:11.31 | RST38h | Ahhahahaha |
| 22:11.35 | bencoh | :) |
| 22:11.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how it makes sense to support only QML for developing apps |
| 22:11.55 | RST38h | Doc: My favorite topic as well =) |
| 22:12.29 | RST38h | Doc: Usually makes them sheepishly say that "yes, it takes way more code to do it in QML, but I get feature X not available with QWidgets" |
| 22:14.19 | RST38h | Doc: Based on how messed up the QML stuff is and how adamantly the top trolls insist on using it, it must have been invented by some lonely top cheese at Trolltech, who later made it a company policy |
| 22:14.50 | Tekk_ | the idea of a declarative ui isn't a bad one |
| 22:14.54 | Tekk_ | I can't speak to the implementation yet though |
| 22:14.59 | RST38h | The idea is years old |
| 22:15.05 | Tekk_ | but it is kinda nice in gtk to be able to just use glade and fill in the hooks |
| 22:15.10 | RST38h | Freaking MOTIF had declarative UI |
| 22:15.23 | Tekk_ | yeah, the idea is ancient |
| 22:15.35 | RST38h | Gtk is another can of worms |
| 22:16.23 | RST38h | liked how gnomes invented their own object-oriented language, which looked exactly like C++ or C#, but avoided any references to C++/C# in their web pages and documentation |
| 22:20.10 | merlin1991 | bencoh: I run the sdk on wheezy |
| 22:21.45 | bencoh | did you need any change to the wiki howto ? |
| 22:21.55 | bencoh | (except s/etch/wheezy/ instead of squeeze) |
| 22:27.05 | Tekk_ | hm, weird |
| 22:27.24 | Tekk_ | I'm getting "Script is not a type" for the qml example |
| 22:34.19 | Tekk_ | did they seriously throw every non-layout widget into a single "Rectangle" type....? |
| 22:34.48 | Tekk_ | is starting to see why qml is problematic |
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