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| 07:10.45 | Apic | A wonderful nice splendid gorgeous Thursday Morning (UGT) on this fine Boomtime! |
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| 08:33.54 | narcos | Hi all. I seem to remember a recent power-kernel has support for enabling monitor mode on the wlan without loading 3rd party drivers. Can't seem to find the script on the maemo website though |
| 08:35.32 | narcos | found it - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89823 |
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| 09:08.43 | NIN101 | wow, somebody is providing 1.0.1g of openssl TMO. Distributed over dropbox. Definitly gonna install it, no concerns :-). |
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| 10:02.58 | chem|st | NIN101: somebody? it's niel... |
| 10:06.14 | NIN101 | yeah. |
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| 11:14.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 11:15.11 | Apic | What? |
| 11:16.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | did he at least publish the md5sum via tmo? |
| 11:16.45 | Apic | Ok |
| 11:17.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and why the heck via dropbox? is it too large for a tmo attachment? Not to mention the "very fne" autobuilder |
| 11:17.23 | Apic | =) |
| 11:18.20 | NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: no, no sums. |
| 11:18.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 11:25.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't such ssl bugfix a 1120% clear candidate for CSSU? |
| 11:26.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and CSSU the *only* correct way to deploy it |
| 11:26.45 | NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: maemo uses 0.9.8 and an upgrad eto 0.9.8y should happen, not 1.0.1 as compatibility is not guaranteed. Since CSSU already did some OpenSSL updates and it is part of the bases system, yes, CSSU. |
| 11:27.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | mhm, was't aware. |
| 11:27.40 | NIN101 | OpenSSH which is also outdated otoh is not CSSU business but god knows who, probably packaged by nokia initially and forgotten by all. |
| 11:28.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, it's on extras |
| 11:28.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 11:28.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | or tools/SDK/whoknows |
| 11:29.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ssh is a normal package. -> extras. ssl is system core? -> CSSU |
| 11:29.30 | NIN101 | yep. |
| 11:30.22 | MrPingu | ssh is on extras |
| 11:30.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it has (or had) a maintainer |
| 11:30.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and almost everybody is free to take over and update it |
| 11:31.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | procedure is simple: contact maintainer CC council. After a week - if no answer - pester council to transfer maintainership to you |
| 11:32.01 | MrPingu | could be in tools/sdk too, but I am 100% sure it's also in extras |
| 11:32.24 | Maxdamantus | isn't openssl still 0.98somenthing in CSSU? |
| 11:32.37 | NIN101 | Maxdamantus: yes, but an outdated one |
| 11:32.40 | Maxdamantus | Dunno. Maybe I'm not using the right repositories. |
| 11:33.16 | Maxdamantus | but one that doesn't have one of the known major bugs. |
| 11:33.17 | NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: well with what I read about maemo's infrasturcutre/politics I am sure not many have the motivation to go through this pain. |
| 11:33.30 | Maxdamantus | it's in-between two of them. |
| 11:33.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
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| 11:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are no politics entangled with infra/builder |
| 11:34.17 | NIN101 | hmm ok. |
| 11:34.20 | MrPingu | No but the SDK settup is a mess |
| 11:34.56 | MrPingu | Maemo toolchain for qt has vanished |
| 11:34.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see a lot of packages getting updates every day |
| 11:35.06 | NIN101 | Maxdamantus: The current version as shipped by CSSU is not affected by heartbleet but other vulnerabilities, upgrading to 0.9.8y should be done. |
| 11:35.30 | Maxdamantus | ah, okay. |
| 11:36.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | and with a bit of "politics" (like talking about it here in IRC) even promotion from -devel to extras-proper works |
| 11:36.08 | Maxdamantus | there was a significant bug introduced by Debian maintainers in an earlier version. |
| 11:36.42 | MrPingu | DocScrutinizer05: Yeah, but I am talking about setup not about a running installation |
| 11:36.59 | NIN101 | Maxdamantus: that was PRNG issue in 2008. |
| 11:37.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | get the VM! |
| 11:37.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~sb |
| 11:37.43 | infobot | from memory, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, or hosted by maemo.org now, maintainer thedead1440, or at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB/ |
| 11:38.18 | MrPingu | I 'have' the VM but it doesn't include qtcreator and such but scratchbox is working fine, yes |
| 11:38.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal sb |
| 11:38.31 | infobot | "#maemo sb" is "<reply>see scratchbox" |
| 11:38.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal scratchbox |
| 11:38.57 | infobot | "scratchbox" is "a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, or hosted by maemo.org now, maintainer thedead1440, or at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB/" |
| 11:39.22 | MrPingu | for compiling/making it works |
| 11:39.32 | Maxdamantus | hmm.. speaking of VMs, I wonder if anyone's experimented with qemu/kvm on N900. |
| 11:39.51 | okias | Maxdamantus: haha, where you take memory for that? |
| 11:39.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB |
| 11:39.51 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 11:40.24 | Maxdamantus | okias: you could balloon the memory. |
| 11:40.39 | MrPingu | Would love to upload updated openssh but I just can't get around making a proper build-package |
| 11:40.55 | Maxdamantus | so it would use a bit more than a Linux instance itself. |
| 11:40.58 | MrPingu | It's just my skills are too low ;) |
| 11:41.07 | Maxdamantus | which doesn't necessarily need a lot. |
| 11:41.36 | MrPingu | replace openssh with x ;) |
| 11:41.41 | NIN101 | MrPingu: well in theory you could use the current package and update its source. |
| 11:41.45 | Maxdamantus | probably way less than running a Gecko-based browser. |
| 11:42.11 | okias | Maxdamantus: well, then just try power-kernel + kvm |
| 11:42.13 | Maxdamantus | so is the normally-included iommu module actually used for anything? |
| 11:42.36 | Maxdamantus | actually, dunno if it's included in nokia's kernel. |
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| 11:43.02 | Maxdamantus | it is. |
| 11:43.07 | MrPingu | NIN101: Yes that could but some guide for doing this, wouldn't hurt me |
| 11:43.27 | zGrr | moin :) |
| 11:44.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | okias: still thinking maemo community is dead? |
| 11:45.06 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: ok, fine :D |
| 11:45.19 | okias | btw. I wonder, I seen qt5 effort |
| 11:45.37 | okias | if it could be included in some official repos? |
| 11:45.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, some nerd for sure tackled that |
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| 11:45.49 | MrPingu | I will take a look on mud-builder, I believe it does what I want... |
| 11:45.54 | okias | http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt5-Maemo5 |
| 11:46.04 | okias | which seems fine |
| 11:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | but our 2official repos" are "frozen" |
| 11:46.15 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: what do you mean? |
| 11:46.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean there's no switch to a new Qt happening for fremantle |
| 11:46.48 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: well, what about estabilish new repos_ |
| 11:46.50 | okias | ? |
| 11:46.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're free to install Qt5 on your system, from extras(-devel) |
| 11:47.43 | okias | actually, I feel like pretty mess with repos on N900.. i disabled few download.nokia, which has that gpg error |
| 11:47.49 | okias | and of course it works |
| 11:48.12 | okias | s/error/warning/ |
| 11:48.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have ONE "repo" that we barely can keep up to date, despite it per definitionem is meant to just deploy bugfixes, not complete system changes like Qt4->Qt5: it's called CSSU |
| 11:49.18 | okias | that's next thing, I noticed cssu cssu-testing cssu-dev & cssu-thumb.. I know for what is cssu-thumb & cssu-testing... should they be combined? |
| 11:49.33 | okias | so cssu + cssu-testing + cssu-dev together ? |
| 11:49.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | *nobody* will rewrite whole maemo incl all apps to change Qt4 to Qt5 |
| 11:49.50 | MrPingu | I will break my head around packaging another time, g2g |
| 11:49.51 | MrPingu | bye |
| 11:49.52 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: well, it's not that hard |
| 11:50.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | still *nobody* will do it |
| 11:50.11 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: on desktop, few apps compiled pretty out-of-box (except some small tweaks in cmake) |
| 11:50.22 | okias | I could do it |
| 11:50.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 11:50.33 | okias | at least for apps I use |
| 11:50.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOLOL |
| 11:50.57 | okias | don't be se skeptic :D |
| 11:51.29 | okias | once I even though about porting few pygtk apps to qt |
| 11:51.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | then go ahead, but for maemo at large we'd need somebody to port all ~2000 packages in extras(-devel) to Qt5 which I don't see to happen *ever* |
| 11:52.12 | okias | well, Qt4->Qt5 transition should be pretty easy.. .you say we have community |
| 11:52.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and *why*? |
| 11:52.20 | okias | 1) qtwebkit |
| 11:52.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | dream on! :-) |
| 11:52.48 | okias | well, I don't see anyone care much about gecko :D |
| 11:52.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | fremantle is basically in maintenance mode |
| 11:53.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | add whatever you like but don't hope for a new updated core system |
| 11:54.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, we're still on 2.6.28-omap1 kernel |
| 11:54.22 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: can be created some official repo for that? |
| 11:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 11:54.29 | okias | DocScrutinizer05: well, that changes soon |
| 11:54.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 11:54.45 | okias | why not? (1 question) |
| 11:55.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | because of the same reasons why it didn't change the last 4 years |
| 11:55.54 | okias | well, as I see, there is still living eco-system, I think there could be people who contribute |
| 11:56.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are too many blobs that depend on the 2.6.28 API/ABI |
| 11:56.18 | okias | oh, I meant repository |
| 11:56.27 | okias | not kernel, I'm aware of actual kernel state :) |
| 11:57.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | there IS a repo! even 3. They are called extras-devel, extras-testing, extras |
| 11:58.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | plus there's CSSU-Testing and CSSU-Stable for updates to the core system |
| 11:59.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that won't push the whole maemo to a new incompatible configuration |
| 12:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it's by definition just deploying bugfixes, but not a complete system |
| 12:04.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think Qt4 and Qt5 can coexist. So if you wanna play with Qt5, go and create a Qt5 package to install it to fremantle, deploy it via maemo-extras(-devel|-testing) repo, make sure it doesn't mess up the stock fremantle system for those who install your Qt5 package. Then you can try to port stuff like microB or whatever you feel needs your love most, maybe eventually such update even has chances to get deployed via CSSU if it actually |
| 12:04.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | fixes stuff that needs fixing |
| 12:04.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | fremantle won't switch to Qt5 and deprecate Qt4 since that will definitely kill fremantle for 99% of users |
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| 12:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need more contributors to currently existing fremantle, not a split of forces into those who maintain "old" fremantle and a few who think they need to develop an incompatible "fremantle-2.0" |
| 12:09.07 | LjL-Tablet | wasn't microB closed-source |
| 12:09.26 | okias | LjL-Tablet: it's "firefox" |
| 12:09.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | we seen this, been there, before: when everybody got told "why do you want to develop that app for maemo fremantle? Why not go for meego already? meego is da noo shite" |
| 12:09.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | LjL-Tablet: GUI closed, core FOSS |
| 12:10.10 | LjL-Tablet | right but Qt4 vs 5 would concern the GUI, no? |
| 12:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc |
| 12:10.34 | LjL-Tablet | fair enough |
| 12:10.36 | bencoh | oh, and I thought microB gui went opensource too ... :( |
| 12:11.39 | LjL-Tablet | i, for one, would like to see my N900 keep up with things, while staying usable (in other words: not some newfangled OS that's slow as heck and very experimental, but not a completely static Maemo with just tiny bugfixes, either) |
| 12:11.46 | LjL-Tablet | but i don't get a vote, i'm just a user |
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| 12:13.24 | bencoh | same for me, but with less closed-source stuff :) |
| 12:13.50 | LjL-Tablet | oh yes, that too |
| 12:14.04 | LjL-Tablet | actually swap the priorities for me, full open-source is a higher one |
| 12:14.17 | bencoh | yup :) |
| 12:14.32 | LjL-Tablet | but i guess i didn't mention that because i was under the impression it was slowly being done |
| 12:14.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | LjL-Tablet: we're working on it, you're welcome to join the team! :-) |
| 12:15.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
| 12:15.18 | infobot | methinks fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 12:15.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 12:15.22 | infobot | methinks cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 12:15.42 | LjL-Tablet | oh i'm an awful programmer, the best thing i ever did for a mobile device was a thingie to change the backlight according to light sensor on an old iPaq ;( |
| 12:16.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | until those efforts aren't "mission accomplished" yet, no "new repos for Qt5 fremantle" or anything like that wil make any sense at all |
| 12:17.05 | Apic | Cruel Word… |
| 12:17.06 | Apic | +l |
| 12:17.30 | LjL-Tablet | eh, i'm unlikely to be getting the Neo900... plus what does "mission accomplished" mean on the CSSU case, will there ever be a point when it's "perfect"? |
| 12:17.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, not really |
| 12:18.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | but i'd consider a complete replacement of all blobs by FOSS rev-eng versions a significant point in time, from which on we cna adjust our policies a bit |
| 12:19.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | however rhat's not CSSU goal, that's fptf goal |
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| 12:21.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | any such FOSS-only fremantle will never be 100% feature-complete, and thus there are a lot of users who bought N900 because of the original fremantle OS that comes with it, and they *don't want* to switch to something that's a new OS in the end, no matter what you call it |
| 12:22.08 | Apic | True. |
| 12:22.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | they don't care if it is fullof blobs, or if it has qt4 or Qt5 |
| 12:24.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have to admit I sympathize with this approach, for my daily phone |
| 12:24.27 | Apic | I have not yet dared to switch to pure free Debian either |
| 12:24.40 | Apic | Somehow i've gotten to like Maemo |
| 12:24.47 | Apic | Even the closed quirky Parts… |
| 12:25.02 | bencoh | err :] |
| 12:25.03 | bencoh | :) |
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| 12:26.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you want a new OS, there are quite a few to choose from, starting with debian, and FF-OS, and prolly not ending at sailfish getting ported by somebody |
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| 12:27.22 | Apic | ic |
| 12:27.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | why the heck would we *nuke* original fremantle for something new that pretends to be fremantle as well? |
| 12:27.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | only inferior, but FREEEEE |
| 12:28.00 | bencoh | why inferior ? |
| 12:28.16 | LjL-Tablet | because i would never use Debian on a phone, i don't like FF-OS, and afaik Sailfish is hardly free |
| 12:28.19 | Apic | Nukes are mostly bad. |
| 12:28.21 | HtheB | meow |
| 12:28.25 | bencoh | mreow |
| 12:28.26 | Apic | Me-ow… |
| 12:28.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | because of feature-completeness, amount of testing, and so on |
| 12:28.43 | HtheB | :3 |
| 12:29.18 | bencoh | most of those features are/can be accomplished with oss |
| 12:29.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly because of the lack of apps available, since nobody is going to port the thousands of apps in extras |
| 12:30.04 | LjL-Tablet | the apps would need to work out of the box (or after a painless reompile), no doubt |
| 12:30.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want such thing, go contribute to FPTF. Do *NOT* suggest to nuke original fremantle to meet your preferences |
| 12:31.12 | LjL-Tablet | but you said you didn't want a split of forces |
| 12:31.18 | LjL-Tablet | what is it you want :P |
| 12:31.32 | bencoh | :)) |
| 12:31.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | FPTF is exactly about such "new fremantle" that could be thumbified, maybe even come with Qt5 per default (while still keeping compatibility for Qt4-apps), aso |
| 12:32.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | FPTF however is all about keeping compatibility, so we do NOT need to rebuild all thosands of apps, we do NOT need to RE the dialer etc |
| 12:33.17 | LjL-Tablet | well when it's called an effort to port it to the Neo900, i'm not so confident its people will care about it working acceptably on my N900, but eh |
| 12:33.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise we wouldn't call it fremantle porting, but razher "our-leete-new-OS-for-N899-and-the-like" |
| 12:34.00 | Apic | I'm glad to get a N900-like Phone with LTE, even when there exist some Disadvantages. |
| 12:34.20 | Apic | Maybe one could even plug in an LTE-USB-Stick via hostusb ;-) |
| 12:34.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | LjL-Tablet: you are missing the point. Let me tell you that people +will* care, even a lot |
| 12:35.24 | LjL-Tablet | DocScrutinizer05: well, the point isn't made very cogently in the introductory post to it... |
| 12:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is obvious to the devels, and it's discussed somewhere around post#8 or somesuch |
| 12:36.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | an OS that's free so you can port it to $arbitrary-platform of course can get ported to N900 as well |
| 12:37.59 | LjL-Tablet | eh |
| 12:38.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | however the FPTF thread clearly discusses all the non-portable things we never will be able to liberate |
| 12:38.23 | LjL-Tablet | i used the word "acceptably". i can port Android to the N900 (it's been done), that doesn't mean it can seriously be used |
| 12:38.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 12:39.10 | LjL-Tablet | ah sorry, i was under the mistaken impression i cared about my N900 being usable |
| 12:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | please read the damn FPTF thread |
| 12:39.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm feeling tired discussing this here, to explain development 101 |
| 12:40.27 | LjL-Tablet | i always love this newfangled thing of roadmaps being in forum "threads" one has to sift through rather than, you know, a wiki or something. it's basically Usenet except done wrong and used for the wrong thing |
| 12:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the FPTF nor CSSU devels are not Santa Claus |
| 12:41.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can't change reality so it meets your requirements, just to make you happy |
| 12:41.56 | LjL-Tablet | then don't, but don't tell me what i'd actually like to have |
| 12:42.11 | bencoh | talking of which, would having a TMO2news gateway seem reasonable ? |
| 12:42.18 | LjL-Tablet | i can accept "i'd like to have X" "you won't get X from us" |
| 12:42.54 | bencoh | (not asking anyone to actually do it, just know whether it feels reasonable to some of you) |
| 12:42.54 | LjL-Tablet | but "i'd like to make X" "i don't want you to split efforts" "but i'd like X" "you don't get it, X is what the devs will do" "but it's not" "you don't get a free lunch, split if you want"... |
| 12:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
| 12:43.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk |
| 12:43.27 | Apic | cya |
| 12:49.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1420525#post1420525 |
| 12:51.05 | Apic | B-) |
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| 12:52.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | #1: This thread is dedicated to discussion about concepts and details of how to port maemo fremantle OS to Neo900 (Neo900 - finally a successor of N900) - ***or more generally to new hw platforms*** |
| 12:53.45 | Apic | ic |
| 12:54.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Everybody who wants to contribute in porting (and ***during that step by step "freeing"***) fremantle, please don't hesitate...<< |
| 12:55.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1372710&postcount=2 |
| 12:56.06 | Apic | I do not like Forums, sry ;-) |
| 12:56.10 | Apic | IRC > * |
| 12:57.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91399 |
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| 13:18.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1375859&postcount=21 |
| 13:19.04 | Apic | Thanks for relaying the Forum into here. B-) |
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| 13:21.07 | Apic | Neo900 has a Compass? Way kewl! |
| 13:24.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | Apic: (thanks for relaying) http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91399 has a dang lot of what been argued here during last 2h |
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| 13:25.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I'm tired to discuss all that again |
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| 13:25.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thus I relay the relevant links to here |
| 13:25.22 | Apic | Ok |
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