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| 02:44.23 | Maxdamantus | Hm. I think I'm going to write a 9P/Styx contacts/SMS/call manager for ofono. |
| 02:45.02 | Maxdamantus | afaict, basically the only other thing that lets you manage that is telepathy-ring/what's-that-crazy-gnome-project-called-again. |
| 02:46.17 | Maxdamantus | then there'll be a small GUI program for displaying chat windows and another small GUI program to handle calls and a small program to play with the LEDs/vibrator when stuff happens. |
| 02:48.36 | Maxdamantus | s/what's-that-crazy-gnome-project-called-again/empathy/ |
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| 04:45.32 | Sicelo | Maxdamantus: what will you be using your sms manager with? maemo? |
| 04:46.45 | Maxdamantus | Sicelo: no. |
| 04:47.06 | Maxdamantus | Sicelo: it won't be used with anything in particular. |
| 04:47.12 | Sicelo | ok |
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| 07:52.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, ofono |
| 07:52.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're aware of fso? |
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| 07:53.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fso |
| 07:53.01 | infobot | i guess fso is the freesmartphone.org mobile devices middleware. http://www.freesmartphone.org// |
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| 08:03.42 | zGrr | moin :) |
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| 08:12.17 | Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: ofono seems more mature, and seems to serve a more precise purpose. |
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| 08:56.39 | Apic | Help: My Camera App hangs up at the 2nd Photograph… i have to kill it… what shall i do to resolve this Issue? |
| 08:57.01 | Apic | It shows the Photograph before hanging |
| 08:57.05 | Apic | And during |
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| 09:35.17 | Maxdamantus | Apic: I think it's because it's still busy saving the first photo. |
| 09:35.57 | Maxdamantus | Apic: try mounting a tmpfs over the DCIM directory you're using. |
| 09:36.15 | Maxdamantus | (to see if the problem goes away) |
| 09:36.34 | Apic | Ok, mompls |
| 09:36.58 | Maxdamantus | (it's not an actual solution, because they'd just be saved to memory) |
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| 09:40.23 | Apic | Yes, with the tmpfs i can save 2 in a Row… |
| 09:40.26 | Apic | How to solve it? |
| 09:41.01 | Maxdamantus | do you get the problem using the eMMC or an SD card? |
| 09:41.29 | Apic | Internal eMMC |
| 09:41.51 | Apic | Maybe the Firmware sees Bad Blocks and is continually resolving? |
| 09:43.22 | Maxdamantus | Dunno. |
| 09:43.59 | Maxdamantus | How big are the actual image files? |
| 09:44.37 | Maxdamantus | Wonder if the camera application does a sync after writing the file. |
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| 14:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | Maxdamantus: hmm, more mature? fso is older than ofono. precise purpose? that's a way to state what ofono initially blamed fso for "it's only an AT cmd interface - ofono will be more". seems now it's like exactly the opposite way and fso is the truly broad middleware and ofono the "AT interface" |
| 14:32.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, ofono has the "more precise purpose" if you want to put it that way |
| 14:33.23 | Maxdamantus | it doesn't have interfaces for an LED or a vibrator or a GPS thing etc |
| 14:33.40 | Maxdamantus | afaik |
| 14:33.58 | Maxdamantus | ie, it's a bunch of drivers for modems. |
| 14:34.35 | Maxdamantus | Dunno. Does FSO have another advantage? |
| 14:39.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ofono? right this might not have interfaces for LED and GPS |
| 14:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSO definitely has interfaces for all that |
| 14:42.29 | Maxdamantus | the LEDs/vibrator are easy enough to control just using /sys. |
| 14:42.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:43.16 | bencoh | the main idea behind fso is "dbus-driven" |
| 14:43.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't even do that on maemo, you need to talk to mce for that |
| 14:43.28 | bencoh | you're missing this very point with /sys |
| 14:43.42 | Maxdamantus | doesn't particularly like dbus. |
| 14:43.50 | bencoh | I don't either to be honest ;) |
| 14:44.00 | Maxdamantus | I mean, I think something like dbus is important. |
| 14:44.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody does, not even the original author of fso |
| 14:44.13 | Maxdamantus | but I think dynamic filesystems already solved what dbus tries to. |
| 14:44.31 | Maxdamantus | kind of like /sys, though that's not particularly neat either. |
| 14:46.52 | Maxdamantus | wonders if cat-v lists dbus as harmful. |
| 14:47.03 | Maxdamantus | because of 9p's precedent. |
| 14:47.13 | bencoh | :) |
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| 14:47.40 | Maxdamantus | It doesn't. |
| 14:48.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway fso just resurrected from a 3 year baby-break of main developer, while ofono... dunno. |
| 14:48.25 | Maxdamantus | ofono seems to have recent commits. |
| 14:48.32 | bencoh | it does |
| 14:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow |
| 14:48.55 | Maxdamantus | Yeah, lots of commits this year. |
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| 14:53.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, whatever. I prefer fso since it has the more educated and evolved middleware approach, while ofono really just focuses on modem and those guys never were any cooperative or welcoming |
| 14:54.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course it might also be I'm a little biased since I helped with FSO |
| 14:55.12 | bencoh | might be :) |
| 14:56.04 | bencoh | hmm do with have anything yet on neo900 modem btw ? any software plan ? |
| 14:56.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | but it's a really funny story that ofono guys, when micky suggested to them to join the new project to already existing FSO, blamed FSO to abe an "AT interface" and never answered again after that |
| 14:56.13 | Maxdamantus | likes the modem driver approach better. |
| 14:56.58 | Maxdamantus | doesn't run much under X on his computers other than xmonad, a web browser, mplayer, urxvt, mupdf and sonata. |
| 14:57.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | THEN you're actually better off with simple /sys and /day/ttyACM interfaces |
| 14:57.37 | bencoh | :)) |
| 14:57.55 | Maxdamantus | with the N900 I'd like to run basically the same stuff (maybe not mplayer), plus some simple thing for SMS/calls. |
| 14:58.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | get the AT-cmdlist of 3GPP, it has all the needed AT cmds for SMS, to send over such /dev/ttyACM |
| 14:59.16 | Maxdamantus | Heh. |
| 14:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | or - for silly maemo - pnatd |
| 15:00.00 | bencoh | wonder wether gammu would work out of the box |
| 15:00.40 | Maxdamantus | sounds like the stuff in ofono/test |
| 15:00.55 | Maxdamantus | which works out-of-the-box on Debian on the N900 |
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| 15:02.48 | Maxdamantus | I'll just write the main part around ofono first in Python, copying the dbus calls from test. |
| 15:03.13 | Maxdamantus | then if I can be bothered, maybe I'll look into changing it to use /dev/ttyACM directly |
| 15:03.35 | Maxdamantus | http://git.kernel.org/cgit/network/ofono/ofono.git/tree/test |
| 15:12.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | a pity that nobody understands the paramount importance of a proper middleware for embedded |
| 15:13.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia in maemo pushed for a frankenstein zoo of middleware-crippleware |
| 15:14.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | like liblocation, mce, mafw aso |
| 15:14.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | for some of them they opted for universal dbus interface, for others... not |
| 15:14.56 | Maxdamantus | I feel like it would be more successful if there weren't "a middleware" |
| 15:15.18 | Maxdamantus | just interfaces for various things. |
| 15:15.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | where "it" being what? |
| 15:15.47 | Maxdamantus | so you have competition for the best GSM/whatever interface and so on. |
| 15:15.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | wut? |
| 15:16.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | all you get is competition between apps trying to concurrently use same GSM/whatever interface |
| 15:16.47 | Maxdamantus | Temporarily. |
| 15:16.58 | Maxdamantus | Then one will become dominant. |
| 15:17.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 15:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | you missed the point. *completely* |
| 15:17.25 | Maxdamantus | Instead, company X will decide it doesn't like the way middleware Y handles feature Z. |
| 15:17.31 | Maxdamantus | so they'll make a new one. |
| 15:18.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not talking about 2market", I talk about "runtime" |
| 15:18.08 | bencoh | Maxdamantus: you're talking about "competition", DocScrutinizer05 is talking about concurrency |
| 15:18.16 | Maxdamantus | Linux, glibc, coreutils, Xorg .. typical combinations of software, none dependent on the other. |
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| 15:19.01 | Maxdamantus | Yes, I know. |
| 15:19.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | GSM, GPS, battery, terman management: typical subsystems NOT independent of each other |
| 15:19.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | thermal* |
| 15:19.51 | Maxdamantus | I've been running `acpi -bi` on my laptop for years without GSM or GPS. |
| 15:20.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | again MEH |
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| 15:20.58 | Maxdamantus | I can see another interface in /sys for the N900's battery, which doesn't require GSM or GPS at least above the kernel level. |
| 15:20.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that tells me... you're missing the point |
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| 15:21.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | *completely* |
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| 15:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | good luck with controlling your vibrator device for realtime feedback in a game like 2maze" and then phone stack wants to use vibrator to signal inbound call concurrently |
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| 15:23.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | with initiating a 911 call despite battery too hot for normal calls |
| 15:24.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | with using GPS when it's part of the modem actually |
| 15:24.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | with doing that from several concurrently running location-aware apps |
| 15:26.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | app A using your apecial curly to enable GSM to access GPS. Then app B does same, since you patched both to know about the mix of GSM and GPS. but when you stop app A, will it shut down GSM, or will it magically know about app B using GPS still? |
| 15:27.18 | Maxdamantus | another thing about small interfaces is that they can easily be adapted. |
| 15:27.47 | Maxdamantus | I haven't paid too much attention to the sound system wars in Linux, but I remember things like oss/arts/esd/alsa/pulseaudio probably other random stuff. |
| 15:27.58 | Maxdamantus | you could usually adapt. |
| 15:28.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I feel like this discussion is leading nowhere. we're speaking different languages or live on different planets |
| 15:28.19 | Maxdamantus | there's a pulse output in alsa, there's an alsa output in pulse. |
| 15:28.29 | Maxdamantus | Maybe. |
| 15:29.39 | bencoh | Maxdamantus: right, and it's a bit like when we had no alsa, plain oss with no muxer, and had to mux several apps |
| 15:29.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | there will prolly be a ofono adapter for GSM in FSO. There will not be any such thin in ofono to use FSO. But there might be a compatibility layer in FSO to allow ofono interface for apps to FSO GSM subclass |
| 15:30.17 | bencoh | either use one single app at a time, or use a sound system (pa, esd, whatever) on top of oss |
| 15:30.42 | Maxdamantus | Most applications nowadays aren't limited to oss. |
| 15:30.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | headdesks |
| 15:31.03 | Maxdamantus | They might be limited to pa or alsa though, but those can output to oss or the other thing. |
| 15:31.19 | bencoh | it was just a metaphor |
| 15:31.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: the concept of midlware aka soundserver completely eludes him |
| 15:32.07 | Maxdamantus | "there will prolly be a ofono adapter for GSM in FSO. There will not be any such thin in ofono to use FSO." |
| 15:32.10 | bencoh | Maxdamantus: how would you have two concurrent app playing sound at that time (10 years ago) |
| 15:32.13 | Maxdamantus | isn't this exactly what I've been saying? |
| 15:32.14 | bencoh | . |
| 15:32.19 | Maxdamantus | small interface, easy to adapt. |
| 15:32.27 | bencoh | (at the *same* time I mean) |
| 15:32.41 | raccoon_ | i think the design concept "just interfaces for various things" is what eludes Maxdamantus idea of software design on a given set of chips and hardware design, other 3rd party software and any other of numerous gotchas DocScrutinizer05 already mentioned |
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| 15:33.03 | raccoon_ | that we have to comply with on the n900 |
| 15:33.53 | Maxdamantus | I didn't really understand that sentence. |
| 15:34.33 | bencoh | me neither, I think a cat ate a few words :) |
| 15:35.41 | raccoon_ | nevermind, i realize i was just trying to repeat what already has been said. and not in a successful way |
| 15:35.45 | raccoon_ | did someone say food? |
| 15:36.27 | bencoh | if you usually eat cats, then yeah |
| 15:37.03 | raccoon_ | i try to avoid that, got enough fur to cough up as is |
| 15:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you *are* a cat and cats actually eat words, then too |
| 15:40.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | Maxdamantus: it's pretty simple: libisi (is subset of) /dev/tty* (is subset of) ofono (is subset of) fso |
| 15:41.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | the more platform independant and cuncurrency-safe you want your app to be, the more to the right a solution you want to pick |
| 15:41.46 | Maxdamantus | and ofono is the suitable level for concurrent access. |
| 15:42.09 | bencoh | it is ... but for gsm stuff only |
| 15:42.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but only to modem, while FSO has a holistic approach |
| 15:42.29 | bencoh | (I'd be fine with that though) |
| 15:42.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | with FSO you also can make your APP controll backlight-always-on and GPS and.... |
| 15:45.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I wonder if ofono has any concept of resource sharing on multi-user environments, while I'm sure FSO at least has thought about how to integrate this aspect. And no, multi-user doesn't mean multipe humans use one phone, it means for example secure namespace separation |
| 15:48.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | it means running dialer in a chroot for example |
| 15:48.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | or simply under another user |
| 15:49.15 | Maxdamantus | so the restriction will be that it can only dial, so only has the dial interface? |
| 15:49.48 | Maxdamantus | chroots are kind of ugly for restriction in Linux |
| 15:50.07 | Maxdamantus | if you have a procfs mounted, you can just look at /proc/1/root/ |
| 15:50.18 | Maxdamantus | (or some other process) |
| 15:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, this doesn't sound coherent to me |
| 15:51.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | lost in translation, different planets, you know |
| 15:52.12 | Maxdamantus | If you're in a chroot and have the same uid as a process outside the chroot, you can open the other process' root directory through a procfs. |
| 15:53.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | if the one setting up the chroot was a dummy then yes |
| 15:53.51 | Maxdamantus | orcus:~# sha1sum /go |
| 15:53.51 | Maxdamantus | a435818c5b375b81e38c3c78c958af645c9eab16 /go |
| 15:53.51 | Maxdamantus | orcus:~# chroot /home/debian-armel-root sha1sum /proc/1/root/go |
| 15:53.51 | Maxdamantus | a435818c5b375b81e38c3c78c958af645c9eab16 /proc/1/root/go |
| 15:54.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw on the usual chroot there's only ONE namespace systemwide for process ids |
| 15:54.39 | Maxdamantus | You can also just ptrace other processes. |
| 15:54.53 | Maxdamantus | if you have the same uid. |
| 15:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | there CANNOT be a different process in chroot with same process numeric id like another process ourside chroot |
| 15:55.30 | Maxdamantus | I'm aware. |
| 15:55.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | then you *completely* lost me on what you're telling here |
| 15:55.53 | Maxdamantus | The only thing that's different is the "root directory" of a process. |
| 15:56.12 | Maxdamantus | A process has a current working directory and a root directory. |
| 15:56.22 | Maxdamantus | when you chroot, you just change what the root directory is. |
| 15:56.29 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: he said same uid, not pid |
| 15:56.38 | Maxdamantus | like how when you chdir, you just change what the current working directory is. |
| 15:56.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks, I know how chroot (and pivot_root) works |
| 15:56.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, sorry |
| 15:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | heads out to get some breakfast coffee |
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| 15:57.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea anyway why we're discussing chroots now |
| 15:57.56 | Maxdamantus | Plan 9 solved all this namespace stuff properly ages ago. |
| 15:58.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, plan9 is fine, alas not very popular |
| 15:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | this however doesn't mean it was a asmart thing to apply plan9 architectural paradigms to linux apps |
| 15:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | on plan9 you might even get away without any middleware |
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| 16:00.05 | bencoh | p9 on n900 ? yay ! |
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| 16:02.05 | Maxdamantus | They even removed chroot from POSIX because it was silly. |
| 16:04.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | POSIX is a subset of linux api, always been |
| 16:04.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | not all that's in linux but not in POSIX is silly |
| 16:04.45 | Maxdamantus | not Linux. |
| 16:04.53 | Maxdamantus | but glibc etc |
| 16:05.03 | Maxdamantus | and bash, and gcc |
| 16:05.16 | Maxdamantus | but the POSIX library interface is basically glibc. |
| 16:06.27 | Maxdamantus | was experimenting with some POSIX function before and glibc complained at runtime that it wasn't implemented. |
| 16:06.35 | Maxdamantus | execat, iirc |
| 16:06.47 | Maxdamantus | er, fexec or fexecv or whatever |
| 16:07.17 | Maxdamantus | Hm. What's it called? |
| 16:07.25 | Maxdamantus | fexecve -_- |
| 16:07.50 | bencoh | "but the POSIX library interface is basically glibc." nope. |
| 16:07.53 | bencoh | definitely not. |
| 16:08.15 | Maxdamantus | Which bits aren't covered by glibc? |
| 16:08.46 | Maxdamantus | unless you're talking about how glibc is just a simple wrapper for some system calls. |
| 16:09.09 | bencoh | no I mean, lots of thing in glibc arent posix at all |
| 16:09.11 | Maxdamantus | like open/close/read/write, as opposed to pthreads, which the kernel doesn't know anything about. |
| 16:09.14 | Maxdamantus | Ah. |
| 16:09.37 | Maxdamantus | I just meant the POSIX library interface is all handled by glibc. |
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| 16:09.48 | Maxdamantus | rather than by Linux or something else. |
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| 16:13.46 | Maxdamantus | sleeps. |
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| 18:15.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | goddamn nepomuk sematic desktop ate 12GB(!) of RAM and brings my system close to a collapse |
| 18:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, who needs such crap. but without it I can't even search/filter for "new mail" in kmail/kontact, thanks akonadi==nepomuk it seems |
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| 18:35.42 | Apic | Maxdamantus: The Images are about 423KiB |
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| 21:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | [notice] from this very moment, I'm no longer maemo-admin-coordinator/manager |
| 21:59.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN THAT FEELS GOOD! |
| 22:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | many thanks to the whole techstaff team, been a real pleasure to help you with your tasks. And good luck to whomever will replace my tiny part in it, if anybody |
| 22:02.16 | ShadowJK | heh |
| 22:02.21 | silviof | DocScrutinizer05: GRATULATIOOOOOONNN! :-) |
| 22:02.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course good luck to maemo at large |
| 22:02.47 | ShadowJK | What's your current plans= |
| 22:02.51 | Maxdamantus | whoever* btw |
| 22:02.52 | ShadowJK | Got beer? |
| 22:03.03 | Maxdamantus | (the clause is "whoever will ..") |
| 22:03.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | forget about all the abuse I suffered during last few months |
| 22:03.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | Maxdamantus: "to whom...", no? |
| 22:03.56 | Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: depends. |
| 22:04.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, pardon my french then |
| 22:04.13 | ShadowJK | currently works maintenance at $work and can sure relate to not being liked :) |
| 22:04.19 | Maxdamantus | "to whom the bell tolls" |
| 22:04.23 | Maxdamantus | "to who tolls the bell" |
| 22:04.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, thanks a lot |
| 22:04.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | think I got it |
| 22:05.29 | Maxdamantus | np |
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