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| 02:35.18 | lyka | happy new year! :) |
| 02:36.36 | SAiF | happy new year, |
| 02:36.45 | SAiF | isnt it a little late.. |
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| 02:57.21 | lyka | never too late |
| 02:57.22 | lyka | :D |
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| 03:13.11 | SAiF | :) |
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| 12:36.49 | sixwheeledbeast | checks scrollback regarding smartreflex. |
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| 12:50.29 | sixwheeledbeast | SR is considered unstable by TI and Nokia for stock kernel. Whereas SR is considered stable by KP team on kp50> up to ~900Mhz I believe. I would like to hear KP teams opinion on SR, myself. |
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| 12:58.14 | ArkanoiD_ | I had one n900 that ran fine with SR and one that failed miserably when SR and OC were both enabled |
| 12:58.30 | ArkanoiD_ | so it is unpredictable |
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| 13:09.13 | hxka | ArkanoiD_: When that was? |
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| 13:16.28 | hxka | ArkanoiD_: IIRC you swithed to N950 in 2011, that's before kp50 was released |
| 13:20.25 | ArkanoiD_ | it think it was 2012. at least i remember i spent some time playing with OC and power saving options |
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| 13:26.32 | TheCakeIsAlive | Even in 2012 it could be kp49 |
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| 13:50.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: KP team is rejecting/ignoring the Nokia/TI finding, based on own assumptions about why SR got disabled as well as a general WFM rationale |
| 13:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | so: based on essentially nothing |
| 13:50.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-D |
| 13:51.41 | ArkanoiD_ | we were told OC is dangerous all the time, but for all years passed not a single toasted n900 yet to be seen |
| 13:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 13:52.03 | jaska | 55.5% oc seems a lot. |
| 13:52.40 | jaska | the most ive done on a pc was 59%, and that was a l2-cacheless celeron266 to 450 |
| 13:52.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, the gallery labeled "look this device fails on video playback all the time, i probably cooked it by OC" is empty for sure |
| 13:52.50 | ArkanoiD_ | and Nokia's default OS tuning (swappiness, scheduler etc) proved to be all wrong |
| 13:53.18 | jaska | erm hmm |
| 13:53.27 | jaska | wrong %s |
| 13:53.29 | jaska | stupidme |
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| 13:53.49 | jaska | 80% oc that is |
| 13:54.04 | jaska | and the celeron is 69% |
| 13:55.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | fact is: TI checked life expectation of their chips and declared it to be 100k-hours on 500MHz and 15kh on 600MHz |
| 13:55.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | no extrapolate that |
| 13:55.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | now* |
| 13:55.45 | jaska | could use a couple more data points there :) |
| 13:55.53 | ArkanoiD_ | but they did not take lower voltage and more sleep state into account |
| 13:56.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | what will it be at 800MHz? 1500h? 500h? |
| 13:57.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | lower voltage is another gambling |
| 13:57.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | and sleep states are not related to the above figure |
| 13:57.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | except for inplicitly not applying |
| 13:57.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~omap-oc |
| 13:57.51 | infobot | omap-oc is, like, http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-08-01.log.html#t2010-08-01T22:16:05 read that!, or and this http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-03-11.log.html#t2011-03-11T03:04:11 |
| 13:59.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I simply say that TI's and nokia's statements on OC make sane and are yet to get proven wrong. While all the "we haven't seen yet" is an age old moot statement |
| 13:59.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/sane/sense/ |
| 14:01.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | sur you can OC omap, when you are willing to take compromises on stability and endurance of the product. Nokia opted for the former rather than the OC |
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| 14:03.28 | ArkanoiD_ | I am yet to see a single n900 that is unstable at 900MHz |
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| 14:10.47 | freemangordon | ArkanoiD_: the question is - at what voltage? |
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| 14:11.29 | freemangordon | most oh them need voltage that is above that for 600MHz without SR |
| 14:11.45 | freemangordon | like 1375mV and above |
| 14:14.25 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I am not speculating on the reason why SR is not enabled, it is a fact of life that OMAP in n900 has calibration screwed (by TI I guess) for OPP 3 4 and 5 |
| 14:15.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is the whole point of the core volatge reglation, it's not meant for user to pick what looks most pretty to him7her, but for adjusting CPU voltage to the needs of that clock frequency. Higher clock needs _higher_ core voltage, not lower |
| 14:15.41 | freemangordon | sure |
| 14:16.09 | freemangordon | but without SR CPU runs on overvoltage most of the time |
| 14:16.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 14:16.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly on the seldomly used 250MHz |
| 14:17.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless some smartass implemented "manual" core voltage adjustment into freq-governor |
| 14:17.24 | freemangordon | hmm, which reminds me, I should send a patch to Pali to increase a slope of SR calibration recalculation function in KP |
| 14:18.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | SR is just about *automatic* adjustment. "manual" adjustment can be done any time |
| 14:18.27 | freemangordon | I'd trabe 1-2% of battery life to be on the safe side |
| 14:18.37 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure |
| 14:19.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | tel4030 using a dedicated I2C link to CPU/SoC for SR exclusively |
| 14:19.14 | freemangordon | but what SR driver in KP does is not a blind "manual adjustment" |
| 14:19.22 | freemangordon | :nod: there is |
| 14:19.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that link has data integrity issues |
| 14:19.40 | freemangordon | why do you think that? |
| 14:20.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't suggest it has, I'm just showing possibilities |
| 14:20.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's quite a bunch of possible issues that made SR instable |
| 14:21.17 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: there is exactly 1 reason why SR is unstable on n900 - the calibration values of OPP 3 4 and 5 are bogus. period |
| 14:21.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and when Nokia and TI(!) detected a problem they didn't know how to fix nor where's the root cause, I'd consider that a lost case |
| 14:22.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you realy say TI is not expereinced enough to detect and fix that obvious issue? |
| 14:22.36 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I would really love some of the ex-Nokians hanging on the channel to prove me wrong re screwed calibration |
| 14:22.46 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: it is in efuse ;) |
| 14:22.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody doubts the calibration is wrong |
| 14:23.00 | freemangordon | when it is detected, I'd say it is too late |
| 14:23.31 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: so why you search for some other hipothetical "integrity issues" etc when there is an obvious reason |
| 14:23.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you can enable and fix it, you think Nokia and even TI couldn't? |
| 14:23.47 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: did they care? |
| 14:23.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, they did |
| 14:24.00 | freemangordon | is is the same as with thumb IMO |
| 14:24.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~sr |
| 14:24.05 | infobot | [SmartReflex] >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<< |
| 14:24.15 | freemangordon | noone took the risk |
| 14:25.09 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure you'll have memory corruption if CPU is undervolted |
| 14:25.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | when wrong SR calibration would have been the clearly spotted culprit, then there wouldn't be *any* risk in fixing it the same way you did |
| 14:26.19 | freemangordon | again - why do you think anyone did care enough to fix it? |
| 14:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is a proof that your fix is NO valid fix for the original issue, just catching up on some fallout from not caring about SR after it got aboandoned and deprecated due to another problem TI and NHokia spotted. At least in my book |
| 14:27.28 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: "my" fix is not different from the "USB host mode" IMO |
| 14:27.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, because I talked to the guy who stated the above quote |
| 14:27.41 | freemangordon | they said the same for the host mode, ain't? |
| 14:27.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:27.52 | freemangordon | ok |
| 14:28.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they been right about hostmode |
| 14:28.11 | freemangordon | I think we already had that conversation :) |
| 14:28.17 | freemangordon | several times :D |
| 14:28.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't work the way it's supposed, in N900 |
| 14:28.27 | freemangordon | the point is - it works |
| 14:28.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is, it doesn't, really |
| 14:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | what you see *looks* like hostmode, but isn't |
| 14:28.57 | ShadowJK | looks at output of first line of cpustat.sh.. |
| 14:29.06 | ShadowJK | 92% cpu off :) |
| 14:29.17 | ShadowJK | (over 4 days uptime) |
| 14:29.27 | TheCakeIsAlive | ArkanoiD_: My N900 is unstable at anything above 600 MHz |
| 14:30.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | so much for "I've yet to see any device that..." |
| 14:30.26 | freemangordon | and I am sure my SR recalibration outputs a slighly higher voltages than those if TI didn't screw it |
| 14:30.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's easy to not see any poor man when you have a habit to look the other direction whenever you pass by at one |
| 14:31.04 | freemangordon | ShadowJK: with SIM card in it? |
| 14:31.30 | freemangordon | TheCakeIsAlive: what voltages? |
| 14:31.53 | ShadowJK | freemangordon; with sim |
| 14:31.54 | TheCakeIsAlive | freemangordon: default profile of k-p-s |
| 14:32.09 | freemangordon | afk |
| 14:33.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | thinks that all statements like "I am yet to see a single n900 that is..." are generally just rhetorical |
| 14:34.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm yet to see any N900 besides my 8 and a maybe 5 from freinds |
| 14:34.36 | ShadowJK | hm.. so if CPU had lifetime of 1000h, and 92% was true for longer periods than 4 days, the cpu would still last longer than the modem has in my 4 previous N900 |
| 14:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 14:35.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's what I think is pretty much exactly what we see in RL regarding all the OC stuff |
| 14:38.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly CPU life expectation is actually reduced to 500...2000h, and just the idle/OPP800 ratio spreads that time over a reasonable lifespan of device usage - **under standard usecase conditions** |
| 14:38.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | doing a lot of VoIP calls or whatever can significantly change that picture |
| 14:40.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the same low active/idle ratio makes for a significantly lower chip temperature, which again mitigates the electromigration |
| 14:42.11 | ShadowJK | I don't remember seeing the cpu temp meter react at all unless I make extra efforts |
| 14:43.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | otoh a 800MHz OC on a device that's running on 100% CPU busy will probably not only burn out the CPU from overtemperature after 30min, but as well cause the chip temeprature exceed the 105°C specified for the OPP numbers TI stated, and thus you start with a life expectation that's way lower than those 10kh resp 50kh TI claimed for normal operation |
| 14:43.34 | ShadowJK | hm |
| 14:44.45 | ShadowJK | where is that spreadsheet... I did work/watt figures well into OC range to find the "sweet spot" of the cpu |
| 14:45.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that been a bit fuzzy. lemme retry: TI statements as of http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-03-11.log.html#t2011-03-11T03:04:11 are for a max die temp of 105°C (A chip) |
| 14:46.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you run OC and the CPU is 100% busy and not idling a lot, then you for sure exceed that temperature, making the lifetime of CPU even shorter than it would be for mere OC alone |
| 14:46.51 | ShadowJK | sacrifices device |
| 14:47.09 | ShadowJK | ok, 900MHz, 100% busy, how long to hit 50C do you think? |
| 14:47.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | thus the summed up CPU actibe time @800MHz will be considerable shorter when CPU idles less in between |
| 14:47.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends on what else the device does |
| 14:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | thermal design is pretty complex |
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| 14:48.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | last 2 @ ShadowJK |
| 14:48.17 | ShadowJK | well, xchat on wifi, 3g standby, screen on |
| 14:48.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think device heats up most from WWAN traffic |
| 14:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and CPU/SoC has a TDP of maybe <1W |
| 14:49.18 | ShadowJK | yep |
| 14:49.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | this will get easily dissipated by PCB groundplane, unless it gets heat from other components as well |
| 14:49.42 | ShadowJK | My first got to 65C without OC or even 100% cpu |
| 14:50.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's all a very complex equation to evaluate |
| 14:52.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | will you get away with 800MHz OC for 3 years? yes, probably. Will this guarantee that the device doesn't burn out in 4 weeks under certian usage conditions? definitely not |
| 14:53.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | watching video for 8h a day during your holiday could already suffice to kill the device for good |
| 14:53.46 | ShadowJK | video for me seems to be mostly 500MHz, with occasional 550 and 250 |
| 14:53.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | or whatever else usecase, the ebove I made up without good backup from numbers |
| 14:54.48 | ShadowJK | 5min, bq27200 gone from 33C to 37C, SoC still reporting 27 |
| 14:54.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | so make that 3 months of manager hassle with a 6h of phonecalls per day, or whatever |
| 14:55.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | SoC temp sensor freezes eventually |
| 14:55.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fubar |
| 14:55.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | SiErr, known |
| 14:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | OC is not about "it's safe / not safe", it's all about "what amount of reliability and lifetime reduction I'm willing to accept. And particularly whicj ammount of uncertainty regarding the aforementioned parameters?" |
| 14:59.09 | ShadowJK | 10min 39C, 413-420 mA |
| 14:59.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | without OC, the device is probably guaranteed to stay alive for 3 years continuous usage, no matter what you do to it |
| 15:00.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | with OC... up to everybody's guess, but defintely magnitudes less |
| 15:01.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | magnitudes literaly |
| 15:01.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | like /10 or /100 |
| 15:01.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | even /1000 |
| 15:01.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | depending on your usecase |
| 15:02.08 | ShadowJK | 300mA @ 600MHz, 39C |
| 15:02.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm yeah, I've however seen bq27k logs where device ate >1A |
| 15:03.00 | ShadowJK | I've managed 1.3A :) |
| 15:03.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and most of that in the end converted to heat to dissipate |
| 15:03.45 | ShadowJK | can't do that anymore, 3g signal too good everywhere now |
| 15:03.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 15:03.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah |
| 15:04.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a complex equation with a lot of variables you can't control |
| 15:04.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | especially WWAN |
| 15:04.59 | ShadowJK | xchat on gsm out at sea is a pretty good power hog too |
| 15:05.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | we had a good share of lessons regarding that, when trying to reproduce buzz issue at openmoko |
| 15:06.11 | ShadowJK | Did I tell you I overclocked an AC induction motor at $work? :) |
| 15:06.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | "when I hold the device out the window, buzz is gone. When I get it back into room, touching the window, buzz returns after 5 seconds like somebody switched it on" |
| 15:07.05 | ShadowJK | The plastic fan blade disintegrated at 115 Hz :o( |
| 15:07.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | the joy of you not controlling the complete testbed - here: BTS |
| 15:07.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL at motor-OC |
| 15:08.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | finally I found that placing the Freerunner on a steel table was a good method to make it ramp up TX power and thus start buzz |
| 15:08.58 | ShadowJK | It's running happily at 50Hz now though, with a tribladed fan that used to be four-bladed :D |
| 15:09.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-o |
| 15:09.32 | jaska | wobble wobble |
| 15:10.26 | ShadowJK | the desk I used to place my n900 on for service as modem, had bunch of papers, and underneath a shielded usb cable that acted as antenna booster for 3g |
| 15:10.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 15:11.03 | ShadowJK | only found out when speed collapsed from 5Mbit/s to .5 when I needed the cable |
| 15:11.09 | kerio | lmao |
| 15:11.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | good USB cable |
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| 18:22.32 | ShadowJK | enjoys a beer from Nokia Brewery |
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| 18:58.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia brewery ?? o.O |
| 18:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | no more rubberboots? |
| 19:03.03 | jaska | rubberboot malts |
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| 20:01.42 | ShadowJK | (Brewery in the city Nokia) |
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| 21:54.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | city Nokia? OMG |
| 21:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | the heck! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia,_Finland |
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| 23:16.46 | sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: I must thank you for your wisdom :) |
| 23:17.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
| 23:18.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | do I sense sarcasm? |
| 23:18.39 | sixwheeledbeast | I have added initial first startup information to FlopSwap |
| 23:18.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 23:19.02 | sixwheeledbeast | and in the process found a bug and fixed that too ;) |
| 23:19.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah! |
| 23:19.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
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