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| 06:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN!! http://monitor.maemo.org/ganglia/graph_all_periods.php?h=www&m=load_one&r=hour&s=by%20name&hc=4&mc=2&st=1380866537&g=mem_report&z=large&c=maemo |
| 06:04.13 | freemangordon_ | www hits swap? |
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| 06:16.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hit swap is an euphemism |
| 06:16.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | 12063 1739 www-data 20 0 7872M 5097M 17716 R 37.0 86.3 203 18.5 05:14 13:46.92 /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start |
| 06:17.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:17.34 | psycho_oreos | 5GB on res, that's huge. |
| 06:17.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 06:18.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's idiotic |
| 06:18.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | I killed it |
| 06:18.26 | psycho_oreos | wonders if switching to a more lighter httpd might help, something like nginx for instance. *shrugs* |
| 06:18.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
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| 06:19.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a class of madness where no tuning helps |
| 06:19.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is fundamentally wrong |
| 06:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw usually our apache processes are memlimited to some 100s of meg |
| 06:20.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | only exception: php jobs |
| 06:20.48 | psycho_oreos | I guess if httpd cannot be lightened, it's whatever the underlying processes that depends on www-data to be using that much memory. |
| 06:21.09 | psycho_oreos | Hmm.. then I guess it's PHP that is making it bloat? *shrugs* |
| 06:21.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | some php jobs lift that limit |
| 06:21.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | explicitly |
| 06:21.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | midgard "memleaks" |
| 06:22.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | objects with circular pointers (self-referential), so GC can't clean out destroyed objects |
| 06:22.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what the cracks told me |
| 06:23.28 | psycho_oreos | So in other words there needs to be one who can find out and eliminate those circular pointers. |
| 06:23.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | in midgard-ONE, yes |
| 06:24.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | or simply rewrite the php jobs to use different midgard links than exactly php |
| 06:24.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | thransscribe to python, bashscript, whatever |
| 06:25.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | when the php interpreter ends, all memory gets free'd |
| 06:25.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | but no sooner than that |
| 06:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | nemein "fixed" that problem by throwing a dedicated physical server (with 64GB RAM?) just on the jobs |
| 06:27.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | incredible |
| 06:27.37 | psycho_oreos | I wonder which one is easier. Probably the latter one maybe easier to implement. From there on it's just a matter of tracking down broken PHP bits and pieces and rectify them. |
| 06:28.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just that PHP in itself is broken by design, and midgard using a lot of PHP |
| 06:29.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik the midgard core is C, but all the rest is a bunchof PHP wrappers around that |
| 06:29.16 | psycho_oreos | Throwing more memory at it doesn't necessarily solve the issue in the long term, but it sure does save the un-necessary headaches with the initial term of migration/ownership transferral. |
| 06:29.24 | psycho_oreos | Ahh. |
| 06:29.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | we would need non-PHP bindings for the functions used in those scripts, then rewrite the scripts from PHP to sth sane |
| 06:30.41 | psycho_oreos | Heck, that would sound like a nightmare. |
| 06:30.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't own sufficient amounts of RAM to "solve" this madness that way. We can't even plug enough RAM into our server to do this |
| 06:31.16 | psycho_oreos | Yeah and besides adding more RAM even if it |
| 06:31.27 | psycho_oreos | it's doable isn't going to solve it in the long run.* |
| 06:31.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 06:31.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | not at all |
| 06:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's simply inacceptable that a 200 lines linear(!) script that simply goes "for Obj in $maemo-objects; do bla bla midgard bla; done" is eating 8GB of memory |
| 06:33.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not recursive in any way |
| 06:33.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | !!! |
| 06:34.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | so the number og objects to process is a few 100 or a very few 1000, one after the other |
| 06:34.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/og /of / |
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| 06:36.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd unscrupulously replace that PHP loop by a bashscript loop that calls PHP for each single obj, and PHP ends after the object got processed and thus memory free'd |
| 06:37.16 | psycho_oreos | Seems like lots of globbing (in programming sense). For (whatever amount there is) in (all of this area); do (all this for each). |
| 06:38.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, it's really a nightmare of poor coding |
| 06:38.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | or ok coding using a poor tool |
| 06:38.56 | psycho_oreos | Some interesting factoids (maybe old, fictitious, outdated by now) that I found whilst looking to see what was midgard's role in *.m.o seems like its mainly wiki stuff: http://www.ohloh.net/p/7485/factoids |
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| 06:39.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, midgard is basically our main DB |
| 06:39.53 | psycho_oreos | o.O |
| 06:40.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | every project in repo is a midgard object |
| 06:41.33 | psycho_oreos | So for the objects that are doing circular references are done none other than project's hosted on the site? |
| 06:43.25 | Kaadlajk | net use \\%HTCSIP%\c$ /user:%USERNAME% %PASSWORD% |
| 06:43.25 | Kaadlajk | IF exist \\%HTCSIP%\c$\%HTCSFOLDERSUBBED%\testset\addshuttles\auto (echo folder exists ) ELSE (mkdir \\%HTCSIP%\c$\%HTCSFOLDERSUBBED%\testset\addshuttles\auto) |
| 06:43.32 | Kaadlajk | oops |
| 06:44.47 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: I'll look at midgard memleaks as soon as I have SSI driver working |
| 06:48.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | psycho_oreos: yeah, or users, groups, whatnot else |
| 06:48.18 | psycho_oreos | *nods* ahh ok. |
| 06:48.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | *everything* is a midgard object |
| 06:49.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | except maybe garage |
| 06:49.20 | psycho_oreos | Yeah I was thinking about wiki "objects", i.e. each wiki entry on w.m.o are deemed as objects to midgard. |
| 06:50.00 | psycho_oreos | I dunno, some google results keep cropping up showing that it's wiki.maemo.org stuff. |
| 06:51.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | wiki is not related to midgard, that's wikimedia |
| 06:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | everything except (wiki|bugs).m.o is midgard though |
| 06:52.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | starting with |
| 06:52.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg |
| 06:52.37 | infobot | pkg is probably http://maemo.org/packages/ |
| 06:52.54 | psycho_oreos | My bad. Speaking of wikimedia, that name does ring a bell in my head. I was looking into mirroring awhile ago. |
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| 06:53.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | all http://maemo.org/ is midgard actually |
| 06:55.04 | psycho_oreos | Ouch, if that's the case then I guess the cleanup won't be any easier. |
| 06:55.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | only garage is some other CMS of which the name I never can recall, sth with p* |
| 06:56.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | or maybe the p* is from postgreSQL that's used in garage by that other CMS |
| 06:56.40 | inz | Isn't garage run by forge |
| 06:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 06:56.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | *forge |
| 06:57.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | gforge, pforge sth |
| 06:57.25 | inz | er, gforge, yeah |
| 06:58.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | this stuff works mostly flawlessly |
| 06:59.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | mut it starts to become a nightmare as soon as garage users are synced from gforge to www midgard |
| 06:59.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | but* |
| 07:01.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | this job which also been a php script like scetched above "for u in users;... done; for g in groups ... done;" used to use 6 or more GB as well. Users: ~50k, groups a few 1000 or even <1000, can't recall |
| 07:01.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's sinply idiotic |
| 07:02.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | simply* |
| 07:03.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's also idiotic is the concept to sync *all* users from garage to www every 3h. even when ZILCH changed |
| 07:03.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and since it's done that way, and often failed, the removal of users got removed, since otherwise every now and then 90% of user accounts would get deleted |
| 07:05.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | the not even funny minor deatil in all this: *garage* *knows* about each change in project/user/group db, and could ask www to simply update that particular change: ONE user to update, ONE group to add... You see where I'm aiming at |
| 07:07.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | they use "dd" where they should've used "rsync", to use a technical metaphor |
| 07:08.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and since "dd" takes ages (hours) it's triggered by cronjob a few times a day, instead of being event-triggered by changes in garage |
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| 07:10.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | garage *could* simply invoke a www.m.o webpage and fill in the changed data, as soon as user actually changes something in his account. NFC why the architects of maemo.org decided to poll garage and sync whole user/group db each time |
| 07:12.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly why that script has to run on www and not on garage |
| 07:12.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | broken by design |
| 07:12.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we got 2 dozen of those |
| 07:13.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | update download statistics etc pp |
| 07:14.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | one of them more "WTF?!" than the other |
| 07:15.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course zilch docs abozt what exists, why it exists and what and how it's supposed to do |
| 07:15.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | about* |
| 07:16.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea which of those 2 dozen caused today's RAM madness http://monitor.maemo.org/ganglia/graph_all_periods.php?h=www&m=load_one&r=hour&s=by%20name&hc=4&mc=2&st=1380866537&g=mem_report&z=large&c=maemo |
| 07:18.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | we sanitized the garage sync script by a bit of refactoring and cleanup so it now is relatively humble and needs less than 1GB usually. I guess it's what you see as regular sawtooth pattern in above link |
| 07:27.13 | divVerent | 19:37:01 ShadowJK | Modern good SD have portions of the flash running as SLC, and caches stuff there before flushing to main MLC |
| 07:27.15 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:27.28 | divVerent | sure, that is why I suggested writing the full disk first, then comparing :P |
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| 07:47.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
| 07:48.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | 32462 1739 www-data 20 0 1232M 945M 20280 R 11.0 16.0 0 0 07:29 2:18.92 │ ├─ /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start |
| 07:48.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | 32462 1739 www-data 20 0 1247M 960M 20280 S 11.0 16.3 0 0 07:29 2:21.80 │ ├─ /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start |
| 07:49.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly garagesync script |
| 07:49.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | 32462 1739 www-data 20 0 1301M 1017M 20280 S 14.0 17.2 0 0 07:29 2:32.12 │ ├─ /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start |
| 07:52.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | all other apache processes are limited to ~300MB, as we have configured it: http://privatepaste.com/2c7ffe36fe |
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| 07:59.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | 32462 1739 www-data 20 0 1687M 1424M 22448 R 61.0 24.1 15.8 18.5 07:29 4:31.57 │ ├─ /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start |
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| 09:15.57 | gormux | hi all |
| 09:16.22 | gormux | I have a little problem on my n900 |
| 09:16.43 | gormux | in the sqlite db where sms are stored, I try to get unread messages |
| 09:17.13 | gormux | but the problem is, something marks the message as read in the db 2-3 secs after it is received |
| 09:17.48 | gormux | does someone have an idea on what it could be, or how to find the program responsible for this ? |
| 09:20.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | 12835 1739 www-data 20 0 2151M 1820M 20760 S 3.0 30.8 0 2.63 08:30 16:05.58 /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start DAMN! |
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| 09:29.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | gormux: hard to tell |
| 09:30.57 | gormux | it seems thi sis because the messaging ui was running in the background |
| 09:31.37 | gormux | so it means the "read" status means messaging ui saw it, and not the human user :/ |
| 09:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd bet you installed some app that's somehow related to SMS. Maybe some remote control that reacts on special SMS (to e.g. erase the data or locate the device)? |
| 09:31.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
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| 09:32.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's hard to tell if user actually *reads* the SMS, so it is tagged as "read" when it got displayed |
| 09:32.45 | gormux | yeah... even if the screen is off |
| 09:33.18 | gormux | it'll be harder to make what I wanted then |
| 09:33.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's actually a design flaw, if not actually a bug |
| 09:34.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | should only get tagged when in foreground and screen unblanked |
| 09:34.45 | gormux | yeah, that's how it works on android |
| 09:35.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | but this is a known age old bug in SMS/messages UI |
| 09:35.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it also doesn't sound proper SMS alarm when message UI is open when SMS comes in |
| 09:36.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | unclear if that's a bug or a feature |
| 09:41.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | so best practice: close you messaging ui as soon as you don't actively use it anymore |
| 09:42.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | (btw same applies to browser windows as well as basically all other apps) |
| 09:44.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | interactive apps running idle in background at best cause only RAM usage, but as well can cause extreme battery drain and a lot of other strange effects like the missing alarm and the tagging of SMS despite they never really got displayed on screen |
| 09:57.08 | gormux | yeah, maybe i could kill sms ui when screen is powered off |
| 10:01.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | good plan, and probably quite easy to implement. dbus is your friend |
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| 10:08.03 | jonwil | if rtcom-messaging-ui wasn't closed, it could be fixed to not suck (i.e. not mark it as read if the screen is off, not suppress the SMS notification if the screen is off etc) |
| 10:08.21 | jonwil | but unfortunately its closed so we cant do that :P |
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| 10:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly |
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| 10:19.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 10:21.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia's differentiation ;-P |
| 10:27.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders wtf been the idea behind that "differentiation" mantra |
| 10:27.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe ask Jolla, I bet it will resurrect in their business policies |
| 10:27.55 | jonwil | At least we are slowly replacing those bits of software that are mission critical with open versions (Pali |
| 10:28.03 | jonwil | (Pali's BME replacement for example) |
| 10:28.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 10:28.24 | jonwil | or my replacement for wl1251-cal (which no-one seems to care about) |
| 10:28.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, nobody implemented it yet |
| 10:29.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't have the CFOSSU distro |
| 10:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | though several peeps seem to think CSSU *is* CFOSSU |
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| 10:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | but for CSSU primary goal of rock solid quality it's not relevant if a component is FOSS and replacing a blob by FOSS is detrimental to quality and reliability as long as there's no better reason than just the FOSS property of the replacement |
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| 10:34.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW FOSS is a means but no reason to replace some blob |
| 10:34.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | fixing bugs though definitely is a good reason |
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| 10:38.31 | jonwil | yeah makes sense |
| 10:38.56 | jonwil | There are parts where being FOSS would help though like MCE or cellular services daemon or dialer/messaging UI |
| 10:39.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: nevertheless I think gormux' approach to "kill" (actually: close) the rtcom-messaging-ui whenever it goes to background or screen gets locked is a good workaround |
| 10:39.47 | jonwil | yeah :) |
| 10:40.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: sure. Thus your wl1251-cal FOSS replacement is a pretty nice option as soon as somebody needs to fix a bug in it, or for those who are interested in getting every blob off their system |
| 10:41.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | for MCE I already have ~3 or 7 bugs I'd really like to fix as soon as we get a FOSS replacement |
| 10:41.29 | jonwil | if we ever get one :P |
| 10:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I heard there are already working replacements allegedly |
| 10:42.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm eagerly waiting |
| 10:42.56 | jonwil | Reason #1 for writing wl1251-cal and things was for alt-os-on-N900 (i.e. meego/mer/nemo/etc) where they only have a few remaining binary blobs left (having ditched closed pulseaudio blob etc) |
| 10:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 10:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | might as well come in handy for Neo900 where we need to deal with a different WLAN chip |
| 10:45.01 | jonwil | well Neo900 will have its own kernel driver |
| 10:45.05 | jonwil | and its own firmware blob |
| 10:45.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | we want to make that look like wl1251 as much as we can - this includes wl1251-cal i'd think |
| 10:45.15 | jonwil | and its own means of doing whatever init is needed for the device |
| 10:45.53 | jonwil | I dont think we need to make it look too much like wl1251, anything that is specific to that chip is already oss |
| 10:46.05 | jonwil | i.e. wlancond |
| 10:46.37 | jonwil | I dont think osso-wlan-security is in any way tied to the hardware specifically |
| 10:48.12 | jonwil | neither is icd-network-* |
| 10:48.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, but stuff like setting of allowed channels is probably a good idea to keep similar to stock fremantle |
| 10:48.53 | jonwil | wifi chip is the same as in gta04? |
| 10:49.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | unclear yet |
| 10:49.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | that plan been to use same, yep |
| 10:49.33 | jonwil | My understanding was that the plan was to use the same unless a better option can be sourced |
| 10:49.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | but maybe that's already a EOL component and we need to find a new module anyway |
| 10:49.50 | jonwil | maybe |
| 10:50.52 | jonwil | in any case whatever chip ends up being used (which will not be a wl1251) will have its own way of setting the settings |
| 10:50.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | also this WLAN module attached via SPI, and we might need the SoC interface for sth different in Neo900 |
| 10:52.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | the concept is to adapt kernel drivers to mimic "old" N900 hw whenever possible |
| 10:52.39 | *** join/#maemo triggerhappy (~quassel@112.209.114.217) |
| 10:52.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | so no changes in userland are needed |
| 10:55.04 | *** join/#maemo Pali (~Pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 10:55.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | only when that's absolutely not feasible we will ponder what userland bits need to get (RE'd and) adapted to work with new changed kernel API for that subsystem |
| 10:56.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | when both not feasible, we go for hw changes to adapt GTA04 to N900 |
| 10:56.42 | Gh0sty | its way too expensive |
| 10:56.48 | Gh0sty | saw that neo900 thing |
| 10:56.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 10:56.54 | Gh0sty | clicked on the gta04 link |
| 10:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gh0sty: thanks, we know |
| 10:57.07 | Gh0sty | saw a price of 600$ to replace the hw :( |
| 10:57.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | *shrug* |
| 10:57.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | donate 50k$ and we may reduce the price |
| 10:57.40 | jonwil | I dont see a reason why we need to try to copy old kernel interfaces if we dont have to (i.e. if we can just change userland bits to talk to however mainline kernel devs would like it done) |
| 10:57.52 | Gh0sty | and that means you have an n900 bulky phone with some 'newer' hardware inside |
| 10:57.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | or buy 10k devices and we also may reduce the price |
| 10:58.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gh0sty: THANKS we know |
| 10:59.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: the concept is to keep maximum compatibility to stock maemo fremantle |
| 10:59.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | thus kernel adaptions have priority over userland adaptions |
| 11:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when userland is hard or impossible to adapt |
| 11:01.02 | jonwil | it makes sense to support kernel interfaces where userland is too hard to change (e.g. audio stuff thanks to pulseaudio-nokia) |
| 11:01.28 | jonwil | but it doesn't make sense to make special hacked kernel modules if changing userland is better (e.g. in the case of cellular services daemon) |
| 11:01.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | audio is a case where we need to do hw adaption since nothing else will fly |
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| 11:02.04 | jonwil | yeah I think its going to be impossible to get audio working unless we are using the same audio chip as N900 |
| 11:02.15 | jonwil | and the same speakers, microphone etc |
| 11:02.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 11:02.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, speakers, phone etc are not critical, as long as they work similar |
| 11:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | micro-phone :-) |
| 11:03.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | speakers will be same just for mechanical reasons |
| 11:03.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | mic will be similar in that we'll use a digital one |
| 11:03.48 | jonwil | speakers need to be the same because of stuff in pulseaudio-nokia that rely on specifics of Nokia speakers (i.e. xprot etc) |
| 11:04.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | not really |
| 11:04.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | xprot is pretty universal |
| 11:04.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | it wouldn't break even for Bose501 speakers |
| 11:05.36 | jonwil | will we keep using the same BL-5J as Nokia? |
| 11:05.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | mix actually is just an alsa card input for the system |
| 11:05.57 | jonwil | I think we have to if we are using the same shell parts |
| 11:06.10 | jonwil | i.e. battery compartment bits |
| 11:06.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wouldn't know which other battery would fit |
| 11:07.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | we might provide options for a DIY smart battery like the GTA02-battery |
| 11:07.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | where the BQ27000 is built into the battery like it really makes sense |
| 11:08.02 | janemba | hi |
| 11:08.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi |
| 11:08.51 | janemba | I have an issue with maemo. Since 1 hour I can't read my conversations (or sms). When I open a conversation nothing is displaying, did you encounter this kind of issue ? |
| 11:09.00 | jonwil | Try restarting your phone |
| 11:09.10 | jonwil | i.e. turn it off then on again |
| 11:09.17 | janemba | well...I did it several times |
| 11:09.21 | jonwil | hmnm ok |
| 11:09.24 | jonwil | no idea then :) |
| 11:09.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | then probably cleaning events-db is next |
| 11:10.07 | janemba | DocScrutinizer05: how can I do this ? |
| 11:10.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | start with some checks |
| 11:10.38 | jonwil | obviously screen will be exact screen of N900 (because it has to be so it fits the case and because we want to keep n900 screen attributes like resistive and stylus compatibility) |
| 11:11.20 | janemba | DocScrutinizer05: ?? |
| 11:11.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | janemba: pastebin the result of `ls -l /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/*` |
| 11:12.25 | jonwil | btw, I suspect my software development and reverse engineering work more than makes up for my non-ability to donate to maemo.org etc :) |
| 11:12.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: don't worry |
| 11:13.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo.org currently isn't short of money, only short of manpower |
| 11:13.49 | janemba | DocScrutinizer05: ==> http://pastebin.com/0Jk8TgNf |
| 11:13.52 | jonwil | I would donate manpower but I lack the system admin skills to do that :P |
| 11:14.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh! 6MB |
| 11:14.35 | janemba | el-v1.db |
| 11:14.39 | janemba | well |
| 11:15.08 | janemba | sqlite file |
| 11:15.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | `cp -a /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/ /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger-backup/; rm /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/*` |
| 11:15.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | then reboot |
| 11:15.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | hard |
| 11:16.04 | janemba | ok |
| 11:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | all your conversations will be "lost" (in backup) |
| 11:16.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | but it should start to work again |
| 11:17.26 | janemba | ok |
| 11:18.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | everything >1MB for el-v1.db is considered too much to allow proper operation of device |
| 11:18.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | the sqlite engine will eat too much RAM and CPU and time for everything |
| 11:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | delay on inbound calls, problems with displaying messages, and eventually even corruption of the db |
| 11:19.29 | janemba | ok I will remember that |
| 11:20.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | after boot your rtcomm stuff should auto-create an empty el-v1.db |
| 11:20.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you moved away or deleted the monster file |
| 11:21.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | funny enough Nokia never considered what may happen to this stuff after a few years |
| 11:21.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | so no auto-cleaning or whatever got implemented, no filesize limits or whatever |
| 11:23.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a `mv /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/ /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger-backup/; mkdir /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/` is even the better method |
| 11:23.42 | janemba | yes but now I can do it myself |
| 11:23.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 11:32.44 | janemba | nice it works fine thx ;) |
| 11:33.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) great. thanks for feedback |
| 11:34.42 | janemba | ;) |
| 11:44.00 | jonwil | btw DocScrutinizer05, if Neo900 cant run Nokia Maps app, I dont consider it compatible enough with Fremantle :P |
| 11:44.48 | jonwil | best way to handle GPS is to just reverse-engineer and implement the GPS dbus interfaces :) |
| 11:45.00 | Defiant | who needs Nokia Maps? |
| 11:45.26 | jonwil | I use it :P |
| 11:45.32 | Defiant | srsly? |
| 11:45.38 | jonwil | Is there a better GPS app out there which has offline storage? |
| 11:46.34 | jonwil | I have yet to find one |
| 11:46.41 | Defiant | I liked tangogps back in the days of the freerunner, but currently on the n900 I use maep |
| 11:47.38 | jonwil | maep doesn't seem to support offline maps |
| 11:47.51 | jonwil | which is feature I need so I dont have to use up so much of my expensive mobile data |
| 11:48.01 | jonwil | or can make it work even if for some reason I cant get cell signal |
| 11:48.21 | Defiant | maep caches the map and doesn't ask every 5 minutes for a connection like nokia maps does |
| 11:48.49 | jonwil | in any case I am happy with nokia maps :) |
| 11:49.02 | Defiant | I'm not.. |
| 11:49.10 | jonwil | About the only feature that I really want but Nokia Maps is missing is the ability to use the Google Transit public transit data |
| 11:49.19 | Defiant | nokia maps is missing too much streets |
| 11:49.20 | jonwil | but I cant find ANY N900 maps app that can use that data |
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| 11:49.31 | jonwil | Nokia Maps isn't missing any streets in my area |
| 11:50.31 | jonwil | or even the new housing estate where one of my family members now lives |
| 11:50.56 | Defiant | Also OSM has all forest paths |
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| 11:52.49 | jonwil | If I had the skills I would write something for the N900 that can use Google Transit data |
| 11:53.09 | jonwil | both mapping and route planning |
| 11:53.18 | jonwil | but I dont have the skills |
| 11:53.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ps: I think we (GolDeliCo) might hand out some Neo900 prototypes for free, for the most active fremantle porters to test the fremantle adaption |
| 11:55.23 | Defiant | btw Did I already ask if GolDeliCo still gets Omap support? Since a lot of Linux devs had to leave TI... |
| 11:56.08 | jonwil | btw re cellular modem I think the way to go is to figure out all the dbus calls and write support into ofono or gsmd or whatever so they talk to the existing N900 backend (i.e. make ofono or fsogsmd a drop-in replacement for cellular services daemon on N900) then once that is working, rewrite backend to talk to Option modem. Easier to verify by comparing stock and new cellular daemon bits. |
| 11:56.32 | jonwil | Thats just my opinion though and others may have other thoughts :) |
| 11:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Omap support? Never knew GolDelico ever got any |
| 11:57.05 | jonwil | bonus is that we get a usable open CSD replacement for whatever someone might want one for :) |
| 11:58.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: ack |
| 11:58.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: and I already suggested to start such project right away, using an USB UMTS stick on N900 |
| 11:59.52 | jonwil | Better to be talking to N900 stock cellular modem than to try to talk to USB stick. Most of the relevant bits of the N900 cell modem is documented enough to figure out or can be figured out from reverse engineering :) |
| 12:02.34 | jonwil | I recon the most difficult parts of the Neo900 FPTF project are going to be (in order) Cellular audio, Cellular Modem, GPS in that order |
| 12:03.08 | jonwil | OMAP DSP may also be an issue depending on how compatible the Neo900 OMAP and the N900 OMAP are in that area |
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| 12:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon_: http://privatepaste.com/89bd7e5ff9 |
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| 12:58.37 | NeutrinoPower | why I cannot reach https://duckduckgo.com/ with sudo ping and opera on N900 anymore but on PC in same network and why has Maemo a dns running? WTF |
| 12:59.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | spilling the beans: headroom on each side of N900 PCB: max 1.6mm. Height of Option modem module: 2.1mm |
| 13:00.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | ( PCB thickness: 0.8mm ;-D ) |
| 13:01.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | NeutrinoPower: huh? |
| 13:01.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | NeutrinoPower: maemo is using dnsmasq for routing |
| 13:02.17 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: thats gonna be too tight a fit :-/ |
| 13:03.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | wait and see what we might come up with, Neo900 not dead yet |
| 13:03.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~1.5 + 1.5 + 0.8 |
| 13:03.38 | infobot | 3.8 |
| 13:03.41 | jake42 | I'd be surprised if you wouldn't |
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| 13:04.52 | jonwil | I for one intend to do whatever reverse engineering and programming work I can towards the Neo900 project |
| 13:04.55 | jonwil | and the porting effort |
| 13:05.16 | jonwil | and FPTF :) |
| 13:06.05 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: do you know the height without the rf-can? |
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| 13:06.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | of the module? we can't do that |
| 13:06.59 | jake42 | yeah, I know, just hypothetically |
| 13:07.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | just hypothetically I see a modem module sitting in a hole of the PCB |
| 13:08.07 | jake42 | right, that's first thing that comes to ones mind.. |
| 13:08.30 | jake42 | not pretty, though |
| 13:08.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | on its own tiny support PCB, with B2B connectors to simply plug into the mainmoard |
| 13:08.40 | jake42 | but what is |
| 13:10.10 | jake42 | swapable modem |
| 13:10.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually it *might* even fit on last PCB layer when we just remove 7 of the 8 layers. But I think the remaining 0.1mm PCB are not rigid enough |
| 13:11.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | and not sufficient for heatsink |
| 13:13.12 | jake42 | haven't seen the inside of a n900-case, but may it be possible to move the point where the PCB sits? |
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| 13:13.36 | jake42 | on the gta04 most of the components on one side |
| 13:14.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I pondered that, particularly to have own PCB for kbd (to avoid mechanical stress to FBGA chips when kbd pressen and PCB bends) - evaluation not finalized |
| 13:14.55 | jake42 | good :) |
| 13:15.09 | jake42 | I'm sure I can't tell you anything new |
| 13:15.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I'm doing that job a few years ;-) |
| 13:15.58 | jake42 | looks like :P |
| 13:16.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, I think Nikolaus won't kill me when I disclose his 80% done feasibility study pdf |
| 13:19.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo.cloud-7.de/hidden/Feasibility.key.pdf |
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| 14:02.28 | jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: not found |
| 14:02.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | too late ;-) |
| 14:03.17 | jake42 | damnit, was getting some groceries |
| 14:07.27 | jake42 | looks alot harder than I thought.. |
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| 14:36.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah |
| 14:38.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | note that some components are fixed, especially camera (which is also "thru-hole") |
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| 14:58.39 | jake42 | judging from the already setplacement of sim-card holder, battery contacs, vibra and the space in between |
| 14:58.49 | jake42 | it looks hard to find a place where the option modem will fit just considering the area it needs |
| 15:02.29 | jake42 | that is for the GTM801, which is considerably bigger than the GTM601 |
| 15:03.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | a tad bigger, yep |
| 15:05.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | think anthroposophic aka forget about 90° angles, then it might fit |
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| 15:06.03 | jake42 | ah, you got me |
| 15:06.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least that's what Nikolaus told me |
| 15:08.09 | jake42 | as he's got the modem and the n900, I'm pretty sure he did some puzzling |
| 15:08.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | he did :-) |
| 15:10.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | and he was positive about my suggestion to remove a few layers of PCB to embed the 2.1mm some 0.6mm into the PCB |
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| 15:10.37 | jake42 | sounds crazy |
| 15:10.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | as long as we can route that, with only 4 layers |
| 15:11.14 | jake42 | cost isn't an issue I guess |
| 15:11.23 | jake42 | PCB-cost |
| 15:11.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | cost becomes an isse after feasibility got accomplished |
| 15:11.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | might cost twice as much |
| 15:12.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | but hey |
| 15:12.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | still cheaper than building a new case |
| 15:12.31 | jake42 | :) |
| 15:13.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | another really crazy idea: lift the LCD from kbd half a few mm |
| 15:13.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | but THAT will get BUTT UGLY |
| 15:14.35 | jake42 | don't fiddle to much with the case.. |
| 15:15.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | option #3: no modem module but direct chipset-on-PCB. Downside: no more FCC approval at all |
| 15:15.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | no calibration done, no nuttin |
| 15:15.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | no tempting alternative |
| 15:17.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and not even shielding, since those cages/cans are not exactly sourceable |
| 15:18.30 | jake42 | the comunity needs a factory ;-) |
| 15:18.48 | jake42 | community even |
| 15:21.59 | jake42 | shows how lucky we were that OM could use FIC's stuff |
| 15:23.55 | jake42 | at least that's what I gathered over the years |
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| 16:17.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, without FIC Openmoko wouldn't even have been thought of |
| 16:21.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually it's unclear if Sean or his Sher's nephew student peer room mate had the idea for OM |
| 16:23.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | just tries to figure a 0.4mm wider gap between kbd and screen body |
| 16:24.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe 0.4mm aren't even noticeable? |
| 16:26.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | (cans) I think tooling for the cans is ~1000EUR, so it *might* even be feasible for one metal object |
| 16:35.16 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: goddammit now that you said it we're all going to notice |
| 16:35.33 | kerio | (also, won't stuff get in?) |
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| 16:58.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's already a gap of >0.5mm |
| 16:59.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, stuff already gets in |
| 16:59.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | inserting a credit card can even break your FPC |
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| 17:23.29 | cybertheque | i am having a tough time locating discussions about setting framerate capability for /dev/video0 v4l2camsrc on the n900 -- experiments so far have only worked with 60 and 499/100. gst-inspect says 0/1, 100,1 -- wiki says nothing... |
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| 18:37.10 | Tekk_ | has anyone tried running non-linux oses on the n900? |
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| 18:57.10 | sixwheeledbeast | like? |
| 19:05.17 | Tekk_ | a bsd or something homebrew |
| 19:05.29 | Tekk_ | I mainly just like the idea of dual booting my phone |
| 19:05.58 | Tekk_ | doesn't have to have access to camera or much of the hardware aside from display/keyboard. I just want to mess around with stuff |
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| 21:20.11 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: A poster to community@lists.openmoko.org had NetBSD running on the Openmoko GTA02, which usually runs a Linux kernel. |
| 21:20.36 | Tekk_ | brolin_empey: yeah, I'm unsurprised about running stuff on openmokos |
| 21:20.43 | Tekk_ | but I don't have one of those :P |
| 21:22.41 | brolin_empey | has at least 4 or 5 GTA02s but not all of them are fully functional. |
| 21:25.39 | brolin_empey | used QtMoko on a GTA02 before he switched to Maemo 5 on a Nokia N900. |
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| 21:34.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | brolin_empey: 6 at least, here ;-P |
| 21:34.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | Tekk_: I think at very least SHR and gentoo were ported to N900 |
| 21:34.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and nitdroid of course :-S |
| 21:35.00 | Tekk_ | shr? |
| 21:35.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~shr |
| 21:35.05 | infobot | i guess shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed. |
| 21:35.37 | Tekk_ | hmm |
| 21:35.43 | Tekk_ | also why would anyone want to run android on the n900? O.o |
| 21:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | No Fsckng Clue! |
| 21:36.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 21:36.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know the guys who ported SHR and gentoo ;) |
| 21:37.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | in SHR I even helped a little bit |
| 21:37.20 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: check the backscroll on #maemo-ssu :) |
| 21:37.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | seen it :-D \o/ |
| 21:37.56 | freemangordon | I guess this is good news :D |
| 21:38.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I planned to wait with my answer until I had build up sufficient enthusiasm |
| 21:38.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | GL as well? |
| 21:38.25 | Tekk_ | hmm |
| 21:38.26 | freemangordon | everything |
| 21:38.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | cooooolshit |
| 21:38.35 | Tekk_ | just realized that he could probably run the enlightenment phone ui on his n900 |
| 21:38.38 | Tekk_ | anyone done that already? |
| 21:38.42 | Tekk_ | I know people have done lxde |
| 21:38.54 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: this is the same driver and userspace as stock |
| 21:38.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | SHR based on enlightenment |
| 21:39.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 21:39.15 | Tekk_ | but that's not maemo |
| 21:39.28 | Tekk_ | this is a different problem from dual booting :p |
| 21:39.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, no, you asked for non-maemo distros though |
| 21:40.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | running enlightenment makes little sense under maemo |
| 21:40.28 | Tekk_ | well actually I asked about non-linux oses that run on the n900, of which there are apparently none |
| 21:40.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | WTF?? |
| 21:40.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | SHR, Nitdroid, gentoo |
| 21:41.02 | Tekk_ | all of which use linux... |
| 21:41.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, non-linux |
| 21:41.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | cough |
| 21:41.09 | Tekk_ | :) |
| 21:41.21 | freemangordon | Tekk_: actually you can boot win95 in emulator :D |
| 21:41.31 | Tekk_ | freemangordon: that sounds fun :P |
| 21:41.38 | Tekk_ | DocScrutinizer05: it's not necessarily about what makes sense |
| 21:41.51 | Tekk_ | I've just been curious about how enlightenment's phone ui mode works on phones |
| 21:41.59 | Tekk_ | and actually using it on a phone would be a sensible way to test that |
| 21:42.01 | freemangordon | not sure if it was dosbox or other, there are videos in youtube, google for it |
| 21:42.19 | Tekk_ | I don't think win95 would run in dosbox. probably used qemu or smth |
| 21:42.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, here you are: http://www.tuug.fi/~toni/serendipity/index.php?/archives/9-Windows-NT-4.0-running-on-N900!.html :-P |
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| 21:43.06 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: :nod: |
| 21:43.17 | freemangordon | there is a similar video for win95 |
| 21:44.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.itpro.co.uk/609997/video-two-operating-systems-on-one-phone |
| 21:45.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFjl3Ob3VpU |
| 21:45.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the latter one is golden, watch the clock!! |
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| 21:46.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2h later...] |
| 21:46.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | [5h later.....] |
| 21:46.56 | freemangordon | but it boots :D |
| 21:47.07 | kerio | does it ever get to 2:10? |
| 21:47.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2 weeks later....................] |
| 21:52.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMYuCHxBgE |
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| 22:08.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | gpspm? |
| 22:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, gPSpM |
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| 22:21.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | God gracious, this will be a long night, with the new intelligence about N(eo)900 component placement and volume/real-estate restrictions/problems |
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| 22:35.22 | brolin_empey | Can LOADLIN.EXE boot a Linux kernel in DOSBox? :-D |
| 22:35.41 | Tekk_ | brolin_empey: that'd be cool |
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| 22:38.48 | brolin_empey | Mac OS X for PowerPC can run in the PearPC PowerPC architecture emulator on Debian GNU/Linux for m68k on an MC680x0 Apple Macintosh. :-D |
| 22:44.55 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: Maybe you could run the “DOOM Operating System” [1] in DOSBox on your Nokia N900? [1] http://toastytech.com/dooma/doom099.html |
| 22:47.27 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: QUAKE.EXE runs with software rendering at up to 1280×1024 in DOSBox. :-D |
| 22:48.35 | brolin_empey | At least using my DJGPP build of QUAKE.EXE from 2005. |
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| 22:52.10 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: http://brolin.be/graphics/screens/desktop/Windows_for_Workgroups_in_SoftPC_on_BasiliskII_on_Win95_in_VMware_on_Windows_XP.png :-D |
| 22:53.24 | Tekk_ | brolin_empey: such a lack of foresight |
| 22:53.32 | Tekk_ | not putting msdos inside windows for workgroups.. |
| 23:01.28 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: Windows for Workgroups is run from MS-DOS. |
| 23:01.44 | Tekk_ | brolin_empey: yes, but he could've still had a cmd.com window open |
| 23:01.51 | Tekk_ | command.com* |
| 23:03.01 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: Can COMMAND.COM run in a window instead of full-screen on Windows 3.x ? |
| 23:03.22 | Tekk_ | hmm, maybe not |
| 23:03.29 | Tekk_ | ever used it. I thought that cmd.exe existed back then though |
| 23:04.13 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: s/he/you/ because that is my screenshot. |
| 23:04.25 | Tekk_ | ah |
| 23:06.48 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: Reportedly, some form of (GNU/)Linux can be installed on at least an Apple iPhone 3G to multiboot with Apple iOS. |
| 23:07.21 | Tekk_ | I think I saw something about that years ago |
| 23:08.36 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: If you had an Intel AZ210, maybe you could run some other x86 OS than the Android OS as the host OS. |
| 23:11.17 | wmarone | brolin_empey: all of those devices had locked and signed bootloaders |
| 23:11.58 | Tekk_ | wmarone: dos used a bootloader? |
| 23:12.10 | wmarone | Tekk_: dos won't run on the phone he noted |
| 23:12.22 | wmarone | unless you're stuffing it in DOSBox on top of another OS |
| 23:13.21 | brolin_empey | Tekk_: The Xolo X1000, X910, and X900 all run an Android OS on x86. |
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| 23:18.46 | wmarone | you might have luck with the RAZR i, same hardware as the X1000 but apparently there's a bootloader unlock for it |
| 23:18.55 | wmarone | though you'll still be crippled by the PowerVR graphics |
| 23:25.15 | brolin_empey | wmarone: Crippled? |
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| 23:32.48 | wmarone | yes, as in GPU drivers that only work for Android |
| 23:33.07 | wmarone | though you -might- be able to make them work with Xorg/Wayland via libhybris, though I don't think it's been vetted on x86 |
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| 23:35.40 | Psi | anyone know of a cheap bluetooth serial module i can use to easily connect the n900 to a remove serial device? |
| 23:39.07 | brolin_empey | Incidentally: http://toys.usvsth3m.com/binary/ |
| 23:39.29 | Psi | sorry, remove=remote |
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