| 00:00.12 | ecc3g | no, there are x86 smartphones out there... not in the US or Europe however... |
| 00:01.05 | RST38h | has fondled an x86 smartphone |
| 00:01.24 | RST38h | Nothing to write home about, really, at least not that initial device |
| 00:01.35 | ecc3g | probably not |
| 00:02.00 | ecc3g | that it sucks battery power like mad is still something that would be interesting to know however... |
| 00:02.20 | RST38h | yes and no |
| 00:02.37 | ecc3g | I just don't know how x86 will get ram on chip... |
| 00:03.00 | RST38h | why does it need to contain ram on chip? |
| 00:03.09 | ecc3g | reduce costs? |
| 00:03.13 | RST38h | sorry? |
| 00:04.27 | RST38h | in a standard PoP, RAM is combined with Flash, not with the CPU |
| 00:04.53 | RST38h | Most "serious" ARM chips do not contain RAM in the same package |
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| 00:14.15 | RiD | heyheyhey! anyone knows how to have better controll over screen brightness on n900? |
| 00:14.39 | RiD | i'd like to set it to the most dim possible, dont know if there's a way |
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| 00:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | rid should stay a lil longer to listen to the extremely wise and insightful answers he might have gotten |
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| 00:38.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is about /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-functions and /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-system-lcd-set-brightness, about /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-*.so, and about /sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/*brightness |
| 00:39.22 | RiD | oh by the way i didn't read anything before I left (ran out of battery) |
| 00:39.33 | RiD | before i joined again* |
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| 01:52.38 | ShadowJK | motorola has a x86 phone |
| 01:52.56 | ShadowJK | There are tons of x86 tablets, mostly running windows 8. |
| 01:55.11 | wmarone | and most of those x86 tablets are running powervr graphics *gag* |
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| 02:35.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't say "there are no x86 tablets", I said "I don't know of any..." |
| 02:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | And I know there even been a few (dozen?) x86 phones even years ago. Epic fail. Never heard of them again, so: a big hoax. |
| 02:38.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | all i recently hear is "tablets go ARM. Win8 goes ARM" |
| 02:39.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that i'd care much to stay up to date. I'm not really interested in tablets. And for sure I'm not interested in x86 phones for another few years at least |
| 02:40.08 | ShadowJK | Win8 on ARM became a massive flop |
| 02:40.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh? good! ;-P |
| 02:40.35 | ShadowJK | (so naturally Elop is going to do Win8-Arm tablet) |
| 02:41.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that I'd think win8 had any chances to _not_ become a flop on anything, under any circumstances whatsoever |
| 02:42.47 | ShadowJK | iirc, microsoft manufactured w8-arm tablets worth 4 BILLION dollars, and managed to sell a fifth of them after discounting to half the BOM cost. |
| 02:43.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here) |
| 02:43.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are massively pondering how to migrate to FOSS now |
| 02:44.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | municipality often all the same |
| 02:45.48 | ShadowJK | is at work now overseeing one of the fancier pieces of equipment |
| 02:45.53 | ShadowJK | it runs WinCE |
| 02:47.35 | ShadowJK | Windows 8's metro is worse than MS Bob |
| 02:47.52 | ShadowJK | Atleast Bob had a exit button to switch it off |
| 02:49.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | who's Bob? zje friggin paperclip? |
| 02:49.42 | ShadowJK | MS Bob was microsoft's previous big attempt at revolutionizing computer interfaces |
| 02:50.52 | ShadowJK | And yeah, paperclip, except 9 of them, in different shapes. And instead of having windows and programs, it was a 3D "Home". To write a document, you navigated to the HomeOffice room, sat down at the desk, and a Dog would come help you write a letter |
| 02:52.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | OMG that nonsense |
| 02:52.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | runs screaming |
| 02:52.38 | beford | http://freewarewiki.com/f/msBob.jpg |
| 02:52.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | second life for clerks |
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| 02:55.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw, what became of 2nd life? Huge tsunami? |
| 02:55.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | killer bats? |
| 02:55.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | supernova? |
| 02:55.50 | ShadowJK | People said "no thanks, I'll stick with Windows 3.0", and it flopped so badly, it was pretty quickly withdrawn, and few people have heard of it |
| 02:59.21 | robbiethe1st | ShadowJK, what, MS BOB? |
| 02:59.41 | ShadowJK | yes |
| 02:59.49 | Macer | 2nd life? |
| 02:59.56 | robbiethe1st | Wait, few people have heard of it? |
| 03:00.08 | ShadowJK | yeah it seems pretty unknown? |
| 03:00.19 | Macer | like... the thing where you walk around some world doing nothing? |
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| 03:02.08 | robbiethe1st | Macer, I thought you made money off of it by designing in-game items and selling them |
| 03:02.32 | Macer | like... real money? |
| 03:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: yep, the thing with linton dollar |
| 03:02.38 | Macer | who buys shit like that? |
| 03:03.05 | robbiethe1st | Bored people |
| 03:03.10 | Macer | if it had a porn theme it would be a mega hit |
| 03:03.24 | robbiethe1st | hehe... Are you thinking it /doesn/t? |
| 03:03.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh it FOR SURE has |
| 03:03.27 | Macer | world of whackcraft |
| 03:03.39 | Macer | it does? |
| 03:03.41 | Macer | lol |
| 03:04.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | there already been trials in real world, trying to prosecute real porsons for doing prostittution and worse in SL |
| 03:04.22 | robbiethe1st | ...I once ran into a tech support story(wrong number etc)... The user calling in had a bluetooth-enabled, SL-connected dildo. |
| 03:04.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | persons* |
| 03:04.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | exhibitionism in SL |
| 03:05.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | jail in RL |
| 03:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 03:07.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | but recently I heard nuttin about SL anymore.Thought it might have vanished in a supernova somebody injected to the main servers via some malware |
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| 03:12.36 | ShadowJK | people moved to twitter |
| 03:12.50 | ShadowJK | and facebook |
| 03:20.46 | drathir | lol http://allthingsd.com/20130902/microsoft-to-buy-nokias-device-business-for-7-17-billion-euros/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter |
| 03:22.32 | robbiethe1st | ...Yup |
| 03:22.51 | robbiethe1st | Elop was a shill, and everyone knew it! |
| 03:23.23 | robbiethe1st | brought in to give MS a phone company, and kill a major competetor(Maemo & symbian) who could have threatened things. |
| 03:23.54 | robbiethe1st | Oh, and guess what, Mr. Elop might well get to take over MS, after gutting Nokia |
| 03:24.17 | robbiethe1st | I can only hope what's left of Nokia gets some balls back |
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| 03:29.15 | wmarone | fare thee well Nokia, exactly what I expected to happen has |
| 03:29.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | MS-Nokia? old news, everybody expected err *knew* this when MrFlop started |
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| 03:32.44 | robbiethe1st | Yeah |
| 03:33.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | MrFlop the new Uncle Fester though is *really* funny |
| 03:35.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like the mafia boss asking his worst most sadistic killer to now babysitting the boss' children |
| 03:37.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, probably MS actually is the first and maybe one of only 10 companies worldwide that's really just too big to fail |
| 03:38.15 | robbiethe1st | Are they? |
| 03:38.27 | robbiethe1st | What would happen if MS went out of business? |
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| 03:38.45 | robbiethe1st | The rights to Windows would be sold off, someone else would take on supporting current versions |
| 03:38.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think yes, they are. Otherwise they wouldn't exist anymore since years |
| 03:39.48 | robbiethe1st | Even if MS just disappeared, windows licences stopped being sold... |
| 03:39.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | the question "what would happen if..." is basically meaningless, since they simply CANNOT go out of business |
| 03:40.09 | robbiethe1st | things would go on. There'd be a lot of porting of software; probably a massive econemy boom |
| 03:40.55 | robbiethe1st | Well, to be fair, they /do/ have enough money in the bank that if they stopped selling any new licenses, they'd not go out of business for years |
| 03:41.10 | robbiethe1st | they could be losing money slowly for decades and still be OK |
| 03:41.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 03:42.43 | robbiethe1st | That being said, I do think that if they aren't careful, this NSA stuff will quickly render them obsolete anywhere but the US |
| 03:42.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even form a market perspective they can't go out of business, just like exxon or BP can't stop producing oil |
| 03:43.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | NSA? LOL! in 12 months MS comes up with WinSecure, now absolutely safe |
| 03:44.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they will earn even more money |
| 03:45.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I rather guess NSA will get bought by MS. That's called outsourcing |
| 03:46.08 | robbiethe1st | Yeah. And will any government outside the US(and perhaps UK) trust them? |
| 03:46.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | NSA fires 99% of their employees, and MS does all the jobs of NSA |
| 03:46.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, since they are not the NSA, they are "the good ones" |
| 03:47.36 | robbiethe1st | I sure hope not |
| 03:47.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the heck, prolly they are. After all they won't be that much intrested in spying any other industries except their direct competitors |
| 03:48.08 | robbiethe1st | The NSA, however, will be interested in spying on everything |
| 03:48.18 | robbiethe1st | and so, they will have orders to find such things |
| 03:49.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | nonono, you don't get it. NSA gets bashed by US public, and the US residents rather trust in MS than in NSA. They don't like thaat spying either |
| 03:49.42 | robbiethe1st | Well, US residents, I don't hold much stock in them knowing much of anything |
| 03:49.49 | robbiethe1st | I'm thinking everyone outside |
| 03:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 03:50.01 | robbiethe1st | EU -- whom we've been spying on |
| 03:50.14 | robbiethe1st | China, russia, who really don't want to be spied on |
| 03:50.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | but don't hope on NSA and prism/tempora having any negative impact on MS business. Rather the opposite, if any |
| 03:51.03 | robbiethe1st | It might help in the US, but I'm thinking their global numbers will fall |
| 03:51.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | hardly noticeable. |
| 03:51.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | what might kill their international business is win8 crap |
| 03:52.10 | robbiethe1st | And, I'm still waiting to see what happens with XP |
| 03:52.19 | robbiethe1st | Considering 35% marketshare, still |
| 03:52.33 | robbiethe1st | We're still running XP in various places at work, no plans to upgrade |
| 03:53.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | when really the last noob shouts in the coputer shop "WHATS *THAT*? I don't want that please give me some alternative" |
| 03:53.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-09-03 04:43:07] <DocScrutinizer05> Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here) |
| 03:54.12 | robbiethe1st | Well, here, it's half Win 7, half XP |
| 03:54.40 | robbiethe1st | ...Though, while Win 7 is generally nice and up-to-par with Debian KDE, I do get frustrated with it some times |
| 03:54.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | at my last 2 companies it been 99% XP, and 70% XP |
| 03:54.57 | robbiethe1st | I open my 'downloads' folder, and it takes like 20s just to display the contents. |
| 03:55.37 | robbiethe1st | I've opened much larger folders on my various Debian installs, and it doesn't take more than 1s, if that! |
| 03:56.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | the 99% XP company struggled hard to find a way to migrate all their tools and stuff to FOSS |
| 03:57.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they had a *lot* of tools and proprietary apps to port to a new OS. That's probably why |
| 03:58.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you already have to port all that cruft to a new OS, then pretty please an OS where you got full control over updates and lifespan |
| 03:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | any win-only apps? so what, we got VMware |
| 03:59.15 | robbiethe1st | Yeah |
| 03:59.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Lauterbach will notice eventually, and offer a linux version of their tools |
| 04:00.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | as will all those ITIL-system companies |
| 04:00.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah, lauterbach. Haven't checked for a year what they're doing |
| 04:01.26 | robbiethe1st | when Autodesk and Catia offer a Linux version |
| 04:01.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, now it's official: MS buys Nokia core business for 5.4 billion USD |
| 04:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | today I'll actually watch NBC news |
| 04:02.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly the NYSE |
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| 04:03.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | farewell Nokia |
| 04:03.42 | *** join/#maemo Ex-Opesa (~Ex-Opesa@unaffiliated/ex-opesa) |
| 04:07.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | *lol* call me a fool - I just registered ##maemo |
| 04:11.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | just in case you wonder what's "lauterbach": http://www.lauterbach.com/frames.html?country=de%3fhome_d.html |
| 04:14.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.lauterbach.com/frames.html?country=de%3fhome_d.html |
| 04:15.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, of course they already have linux support |
| 04:16.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | Qt and Motif |
| 04:30.44 | jpinx | Hello msn-nokia :s |
| 04:32.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops, EUR, not USD |
| 04:33.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | well 5.4 billion EUR or USD, not much of a difference |
| 04:34.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | wonders if we will again be able to buy NOKIA rubberboots finally |
| 04:34.19 | jpinx | waders maybe :) |
| 04:35.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, probably Nokia will again be really big business in 30 years, with all that global warming ;-) |
| 04:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ruberboats, boots, waders, tents, waterbags... I see a bright future for Nokia |
| 04:37.54 | jpinx | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:43.16 | jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: how many n900's do you have now ? ;) |
| 04:43.40 | jpinx | they'll have antique value soon :) |
| 04:44.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, not enough. But honestly, the today's hot news won't have any impact on that. |
| 04:44.59 | Macer | today's hot news? |
| 04:45.07 | Macer | n900s cure cancer? |
| 04:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | farewel Nokia |
| 04:45.16 | Macer | heh |
| 04:45.24 | Macer | farewell nokia? |
| 04:45.31 | Macer | did i miss something? |
| 04:45.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | bought by MS |
| 04:45.38 | Macer | oh |
| 04:45.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5.5E9 EUR |
| 04:45.48 | Macer | kinda saw that coming didnt we? ;) |
| 04:45.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 04:45.59 | beford | http://press.nokia.com/2013/09/03/nokia-to-sell-devices-services-business-to-microsoft-in-eur-5-44-billion-all-cash-transaction/ |
| 04:46.06 | Macer | wow thats it? |
| 04:46.15 | Macer | cheap buy for ms :) |
| 04:46.37 | Macer | what is a € worth us nowadays? |
| 04:46.49 | Macer | $2.50? |
| 04:46.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah |
| 04:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1.20? |
| 04:47.07 | Macer | wow fell that low? |
| 04:47.11 | Macer | nice |
| 04:47.27 | Macer | well... maybe ms is going to make nokia their iphone ;) |
| 04:47.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe 1.40, I honestly don't know |
| 04:47.35 | Macer | win8 phones arent too bad |
| 04:47.43 | Macer | lumia 1020 is a beast |
| 04:48.14 | Macer | then again tho.. google bought motorola and havent done anything with it |
| 04:48.33 | Macer | probably just to pocket patents |
| 04:48.37 | jpinx | sony have arguably the best phones atm |
| 04:48.47 | jpinx | but that's a moving finishing line |
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| 04:49.32 | Macer | sony? |
| 04:49.48 | Macer | i cant say i see too many sony phones out and about tbh. not here at least |
| 04:50.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't mean they are crap |
| 04:50.21 | Macer | i didnt say they were |
| 04:50.33 | Macer | just saying |
| 04:50.38 | Macer | it is rare to see one |
| 04:50.59 | jpinx | Sony Xperia Z Ultra 6.4" phablet |
| 04:51.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, you get xperias in evry shop here |
| 04:51.09 | jpinx | very cool big phone |
| 04:51.11 | Macer | if i take a route tho i think i will be going the ms route next |
| 04:51.29 | Macer | is that the sony answer to a note? |
| 04:51.52 | jpinx | depends on whether the not was a question :p |
| 04:51.54 | Macer | if my n900 ever dies. heh. i still have a brand new e7 on standby too |
| 04:52.05 | Macer | haha |
| 04:52.38 | jpinx | Macer: and take a look at samsung mega 6.3" |
| 04:52.40 | Macer | looks like 3 types of phones from here on out |
| 04:52.54 | Macer | ad-droid, windows, and ios |
| 04:53.07 | jpinx | will go for a phablet next |
| 04:53.10 | Macer | maybe ms will use symbian code to create true multitasking |
| 04:53.13 | Macer | :) |
| 04:53.32 | Macer | i can noly imagine a windows phone with a symbian base on today's hardware |
| 04:53.46 | Macer | using a windows ui |
| 04:53.51 | jpinx | what about the ubuntu phone ? |
| 04:53.54 | Macer | that would be insanely good heh |
| 04:54.03 | Macer | ubuntu fell short 19M :-P |
| 04:54.19 | jpinx | is not writing them off just because of money |
| 04:54.34 | Macer | i would |
| 04:54.42 | Macer | unless they got something out from a major manufacturer |
| 04:54.59 | Macer | unity is an ugly interface tho |
| 04:55.18 | jpinx | they have a good chance and the market is begging for anopen source phone |
| 04:55.19 | beford | on the phone it seems to be more usable than on a laptop though |
| 04:56.06 | Macer | yah |
| 04:56.18 | Macer | werent they going to use wayland too? |
| 04:56.24 | Macer | like. no more xorg? |
| 04:57.09 | Macer | im sure that may improve performance. but realistically the ubuntu phone is far from reality |
| 04:57.27 | Macer | ms is actually starting to shape up to take a good position in the market |
| 04:57.28 | jpinx | Macer is a negative thinker ? |
| 04:57.30 | beford | Mir, no wayland and no X |
| 04:57.45 | Macer | jpinx: no. i am a realist ;) |
| 04:57.57 | beford | they'll use Mir on desktop too, I think the next release will include it |
| 04:58.23 | Macer | wow |
| 05:00.16 | jpinx | Macer: reality is relative . it's a question of perception :) |
| 05:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | good! one linux distro less I have to service on any of my friends' computers. If they want me to service their junk, they better stay away from buntkuh with mir. |
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| 05:12.31 | Sc0rpius | hmm |
| 05:12.45 | Sc0rpius | Microsoft buys Nokia's devices & services so what's left ? |
| 05:14.11 | jpinx | welly boots :) |
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| 05:15.21 | Sc0rpius | I don't see the difference between "Microsoft buys Nokia's devices & services" and "Microsoft buys Nokia and bye bye for good" |
| 05:16.43 | jpinx | don't forget the wellies :) |
| 05:16.54 | jpinx | MS didn't buy them :) |
| 05:17.22 | Sc0rpius | hehe |
| 05:18.06 | Kaadlajk | what is left still has revenue of over 15billion so there is something left :P |
| 05:19.52 | Sc0rpius | what Nokia has besides "devices & services" ? |
| 05:20.16 | Sc0rpius | the building and employees? so that's left, they are not part of the deal |
| 05:21.09 | frals | networks is a separate org from devices and services, at least |
| 05:22.05 | jpinx | about 32,000 Nokia employees will transfer to Microsoft |
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| 05:22.43 | jpinx | the deal will be finalised in early 2014 |
| 05:23.01 | jpinx | subject to approval by Nokia shareholders and regulators |
| 05:23.24 | beford | nokia will keep the HERE map bussiness, microsoft just paid to use it in the phones |
| 05:24.11 | Sc0rpius | the whole board of directors of Nokia will accept the deal, they have to |
| 05:24.51 | Sc0rpius | are you sure of that beford? |
| 05:24.58 | Sc0rpius | that looks like it is part of the "services" deal |
| 05:25.01 | beford | that's how I read it, not sure |
| 05:25.24 | jpinx | Sc0rpius: yep - the patents and mapping ae going to be good earners for what is left of Nokia |
| 05:25.59 | jpinx | Nokia will also license its patents and mapping services to Microsoft |
| 05:26.07 | jpinx | not "sell" |
| 05:26.21 | Sc0rpius | and who uses Nokia maps anyway... |
| 05:26.36 | Sc0rpius | I thought everybody used Google maps for navigation in their phoens |
| 05:26.38 | Sc0rpius | phones |
| 05:26.40 | jpinx | MS will :) |
| 05:26.59 | jpinx | MS will be glad of a way to cut googlemaps out |
| 05:28.52 | Sc0rpius | at least Elop is stepping down for what's left of Nokia |
| 05:29.02 | Sc0rpius | that's like a tiny bit of light in all these darkness hehe :) |
| 05:29.25 | Sc0rpius | this was all a dirty plot |
| 05:29.37 | Sc0rpius | Elop will go back to Microsoft after the acquisition closes |
| 05:29.51 | Sc0rpius | this was all a plot from the very beginning Elop came to Nokia |
| 05:30.58 | jpinx | Sc0rpius: everyone has seen this coming for a year or so now |
| 05:31.06 | Sc0rpius | not me! |
| 05:31.54 | jpinx | ever since Elop was appointed ;) |
| 05:36.48 | ruskie | well nokia it was nice knowing you |
| 05:36.56 | Sc0rpius | heh |
| 05:40.27 | Wulfe | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:41.17 | jpinx | has a spare working n900 for sale :) |
| 05:41.30 | Wulfe | how much? |
| 05:42.27 | ruskie | I'm still happy with mine *knock on wood* |
| 05:42.51 | ruskie | and my backups include sailfish, firefoxos and tizien(or whatever you spell it like) |
| 05:43.14 | jpinx | Wulfe: $150 US ? |
| 05:43.43 | Wulfe | meh, i am good. i have found them for a bit cheaper. |
| 05:43.52 | Wulfe | but decent price all the same |
| 05:44.57 | jpinx | yea and postage from here would make it more |
| 05:45.07 | jpinx | Wulfe: make me an offer ;) |
| 05:45.13 | Wulfe | yeah S&H really gets ya |
| 05:45.41 | Wulfe | unless you can beat $110 free S&H i wont be interested. |
| 05:45.54 | jpinx | where are you ? |
| 05:45.59 | Wulfe | place i am looking at has a very limited supply so i may jump on it. |
| 05:46.11 | Wulfe | midwest usa |
| 05:46.46 | jpinx | gimmie a city I can google S&H to ;) |
| 05:46.59 | Wulfe | kansas city, mo |
| 05:47.15 | jpinx | ok |
| 05:47.47 | jpinx | what's the favourite S&H people there ? DHL or who ? |
| 05:47.49 | Wulfe | dont rely on me as a buyer though only reason i have not bought one yet is i am waiting to sell off a tablet for the money first |
| 05:48.02 | Wulfe | UPS or USPS |
| 05:48.07 | jpinx | Wulfe: what tablet you selling ? |
| 05:48.12 | jpinx | Wulfe: pm me ;) |
| 05:48.21 | Wulfe | deal streak 7 with modified charging port |
| 05:48.40 | Wulfe | i removed the propriatary 30 pin for a mini usb one |
| 05:48.57 | Wulfe | dell* |
| 05:49.44 | jpinx | never heard of dell streak 7 -- googlng nw |
| 05:49.48 | Wulfe | main reason i am looking to get a n900 is for developing on it |
| 05:50.01 | Wulfe | its an okay tablet but it has its downsides |
| 05:50.07 | Wulfe | mainly being a dell |
| 05:50.32 | Wulfe | dell is like the apple of pc's..... |
| 05:50.46 | Wulfe | so damn propriatary with everything they do |
| 05:51.01 | jpinx | what OS |
| 05:51.10 | Wulfe | android 3.2 |
| 05:51.19 | jpinx | possible to upgrade ? |
| 05:51.34 | Wulfe | yeah XDA has custom roms to take it to jellybean |
| 06:00.56 | jpinx | Wulfe: ok - no sale :) I can buy new tablets with jellybean for $100 here and not have to put up with Dell's oddities (non-removeable battery - wtf is that?) |
| 06:01.25 | Wulfe | i completely understand lol |
| 06:01.46 | Wulfe | although the battery can be changed out you just have to open the thing up. |
| 06:01.56 | Wulfe | but yeah dell blows |
| 06:02.19 | Wulfe | no biggie though i am sure someone on craigslist will want one |
| 06:02.20 | jpinx | Samsung Mega 6.3" here is about $75 |
| 06:02.28 | Wulfe | christmas coming up and all |
| 06:02.59 | Wulfe | yeah samsung makes a decent tablet |
| 06:03.08 | Wulfe | good price to |
| 06:04.05 | jpinx | <PROTECTED> |
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| 06:22.45 | Apic | DocScrutinizer05: Yes, 1983 in Christian Date |
| 06:24.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | Apic: I just think it's extremely funny that ddate binary is bart of core tools and thus on *every* linux ;-D |
| 06:24.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | part* |
| 06:24.29 | Apic | Yes, thanks to Slackware, the very first Distro, and the Church of the Subgenius. Praise Bob! |
| 06:25.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | love it :-) |
| 06:25.25 | Apic | 2 |
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| 06:28.35 | doc|mobile | who didn't see this coming: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/03/microsoft-buys-nokia-handset/2756653/ ? |
| 06:29.43 | Gh0sty | nobody ever did :P |
| 06:29.56 | Gh0sty | it was not a question of 'if' but rather 'when' |
| 06:30.09 | doc|mobile | exactly |
| 06:30.22 | doc|mobile | he was always seen as a trojan |
| 06:30.25 | doc|mobile | horse |
| 06:30.31 | doc|mobile | heh |
| 06:40.27 | doc|mobile | seems he did the same thing with Macromedia, joined as ceo three months before they were bought by Adobe |
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| 07:04.58 | XATRIX | Hi, i still need help to solve some dependency issue |
| 07:05.05 | XATRIX | HAM + CSSU package update |
| 07:05.31 | XATRIX | where can i get HAM logs ? |
| 07:05.42 | XATRIX | Does it write some file ? |
| 07:07.49 | XATRIX | DocScrutinizer05: hi |
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| 07:24.50 | jaska | heh |
| 07:24.58 | jaska | i knew this the day they announced elop |
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| 07:25.30 | doc|mobile | yeah |
| 07:25.56 | Apic | B-( |
| 07:25.59 | doc|mobile | so many deals with microsoft ends up with the other party getting screwed |
| 07:26.41 | doc|mobile | I wonder if this will get any regulatory bodies interested |
| 07:27.03 | Veggen | For Microsoft, I think it's too late actually. |
| 07:27.11 | doc|mobile | hmm? |
| 07:27.37 | Veggen | ...though they have been very good at turning around in earlier days. Not so the last 10+ years. |
| 07:28.21 | doc|mobile | I dunno, look at the xbox |
| 07:28.31 | doc|mobile | and Ballmer on his way out may help |
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| 07:55.15 | Wizzup | Embrace, Extend, Extinguish |
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| 08:20.36 | ruskie | apparently Elop is now a favorite as the monkeys replacement |
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| 08:23.58 | Wizzup | developers! |
| 08:24.43 | ruskie | but yeah interested if any of the regulators will stick their nose in this as well |
| 08:25.21 | jaska | embrace, extend, extinguish, elop |
| 08:25.39 | Wizzup | jaska: LOL |
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| 09:07.54 | jon_y | So Microsoft-Nokia is now reality :) |
| 09:09.59 | fizzie | And Finnish news sites have amusing front pages as a result. It's all Nokia this and Nokia that as far as the eye can see. |
| 09:12.01 | Macer | well. there arent a lot of things in finland to talk about is there? |
| 09:12.15 | Macer | at least in the US we murder each other all day long |
| 09:15.12 | jon_y | 150 years of Nokia undone in 3 years |
| 09:15.21 | jon_y | good job guys |
| 09:16.04 | jon_y | so are they releasing th N950 owners from their obligation now? |
| 09:18.21 | LauRoman | this is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex |
| 09:18.58 | FIQ | MS buys Nokia |
| 09:19.09 | FIQ | saw this coming 2 years ago already |
| 09:20.59 | jon_y | so now, there are basically 2 choices for consumer phones, Samsung and Apple |
| 09:21.14 | jon_y | they both look the same that I can't tell them apart |
| 09:23.47 | LauRoman | the difference is that one is made in china and the other is made in korea and chine, one has samsung chips and screens, the other has samsung screens and chips |
| 09:25.03 | FIQ | haha |
| 09:25.14 | FIQ | the only thing that actually matter is your OS of choice |
| 09:25.23 | FIQ | and then you choose device based on that |
| 09:26.19 | FIQ | [11:18:22] <LauRoman> this is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex |
| 09:26.34 | FIQ | yes but usually it dies slowly or gets obsoleted by something else |
| 09:26.41 | FIQ | nokia basically went suicidal |
| 09:27.01 | LauRoman | for a second time FIQ |
| 09:28.27 | FIQ | LauRoman: ? |
| 09:28.43 | LauRoman | fiq first is when they signed the WP deal |
| 09:28.53 | LauRoman | exclusivity |
| 09:28.56 | FIQ | oh I counted this all as a single action |
| 09:29.32 | FIQ | as it was bound to be absorbed by MS the moment elop ruined nokia back in feb 2011 |
| 09:30.18 | LauRoman | nokia shareholders wanted money now and promises of more coming later, that's what they got from MS, and what they got from google was zero money now and aassurances of money later, they just chose "money now" |
| 09:31.01 | jon_y | how much are all the shares worth? |
| 09:31.18 | jon_y | MS has 86 billion in the bank iirc |
| 09:31.44 | jon_y | if this bites MS hard, so much the better :) |
| 09:32.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 |
| 09:32.12 | LauRoman | 8 bil is nothing compared to the motorola deal or the verizon vodafone one |
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| 09:38.32 | discopig | hi |
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| 09:56.03 | jonwil | I wonder what the merger laws are in Finland and whether there is a government agency that will need to give blessing to the Nokia-MS deal in the way it is here in Australia |
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| 10:00.24 | edheldil | Good job, Elop, mission accomplished :/ |
| 10:00.57 | Veggen | jonwil: very likely. |
| 10:01.49 | Veggen | however, since Google and Android are the two largest player, and MS share will not be that large at all, I doubt anyone will deny this. |
| 10:02.06 | Veggen | eh, Google and Apple, I meant. |
| 10:07.17 | LauRoman | jonwil, there is no merger, one company is selling a divison to another company. Theoretically it should only be regulated if MS already had a hardware division (or a homonym to whatever other part is included in the deal) in Finland, or if the State held a big enough stake in Nokia that allwoed it to make some decisions based on how many shares it had or if there was an aditional agreement |
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| 10:08.02 | LauRoman | since navteq and many other divisons are not being sold, thre shouldn't be regulation backlash |
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| 10:10.15 | LauRoman | the only thing i fear is that the Lumia division could end up a writeoff in 3-4-5 years |
| 10:17.59 | jonwil | if Microsoft buying the Nokia phone division hurts Microsoft, that's a good thing (I have no great love for Microsoft) |
| 10:19.02 | divVerent | LauRoman: and why is that bad? :) |
| 10:20.25 | LauRoman | divVerent, people being layed off because of corporate machinations is what will be attached to that writeoff |
| 10:20.40 | jonwil | About the only things I use from Microsoft are Windows (because only Windows can run things I want/need to run like games) and Visual Studio (because I write code that will only be usable in Visual C++ due to ABI issues) |
| 10:20.50 | divVerent | well... and where is the difference? Lumia wasn't exactly a success |
| 10:21.04 | divVerent | Nokia was struggling anyway, I don't really think it gets WORSE from this for the employees |
| 10:21.09 | divVerent | maybe not better either, though |
| 10:21.35 | divVerent | jonwil: have to admit MSVS is the best IDE there is... if only it had decent compilers :) |
| 10:21.58 | jonwil | What would you consider a better compiler than MS? |
| 10:22.05 | divVerent | ANY other compiler |
| 10:22.12 | divVerent | e.g. for starters, a C compiler that doesn't STILL ignore C99 |
| 10:22.30 | jonwil | The new Visual C++ 2013 compiler supports quite a few parts of C99 |
| 10:22.39 | divVerent | does it FINALLY allow variables inside blocks? :P |
| 10:23.25 | divVerent | also, a compiler that comes with a runtime that doesn't warn because code is portable and not Microsoft vendor-lock-in code |
| 10:23.53 | divVerent | e.g. fopen() is forbidden apparently, need to use the MUCH MORE SECURE fopen_s(). Why is it more secure? Because it DETECTS WHEN YOU PASS NULL AS FILENAME. |
| 10:25.22 | divVerent | I wouldn't complain if it were actually more secure, but SOME of the functions in the _s set are just ridiculous |
| 10:25.58 | jon_y | divVerent: those are C++ template tricks |
| 10:26.18 | jon_y | I know because I worked on adding those _s to mingw-w64 |
| 10:26.28 | jonwil | You can turn off all those warnings |
| 10:26.35 | jonwil | I do it all the time my in C++ code |
| 10:26.41 | jon_y | it really needs to be automated, added half of it in only |
| 10:26.54 | divVerent | jon_y: SOME are |
| 10:26.56 | divVerent | fopen_s is not |
| 10:27.14 | divVerent | many of these actually do some sizeof() tricks to find array sizes, and add a compile time check for buffer overflows |
| 10:27.20 | divVerent | kinda like _FORTIFY_SOURCE does in gcc/glibc |
| 10:27.32 | jon_y | actually, gcc already has non_null attribute that warns on possible null |
| 10:27.59 | jon_y | gcc still best for C99 and the proposed C11 |
| 10:28.04 | divVerent | and via fortify (also some nasty template and macro tricks) it adds an extra function arg of the array size if you pass an array buffer |
| 10:28.20 | jon_y | yup, I know those |
| 10:28.21 | divVerent | if it cannot detect an overrun at compile time already |
| 10:28.35 | divVerent | just, MS insisted on breaking a standard just so they can lock-in |
| 10:28.41 | jon_y | it directs unsafe to "safe" |
| 10:28.58 | divVerent | while glibc managed to do it ALMOST without issues without any compatibility breakage |
| 10:29.06 | jon_y | also, RT apparently has nothing to do with security |
| 10:29.12 | divVerent | but anyway |
| 10:29.17 | jon_y | according to the VLC guys |
| 10:29.18 | divVerent | so MS finally has a major part of C99 done? Nice. |
| 10:29.23 | divVerent | Took them only... 15 years |
| 10:29.27 | jon_y | it does? |
| 10:29.27 | divVerent | so I know when they will have C++11 done |
| 10:29.38 | jon_y | I thought it does stdint.h only? |
| 10:29.42 | divVerent | oh, still? |
| 10:29.46 | divVerent | was just told they added more :P |
| 10:29.54 | jonwil | Visual C++ 2013 does implement a bunch of the C99 libs |
| 10:30.01 | jon_y | afaik, it is just stdint.h |
| 10:30.04 | divVerent | does it also add the C99 syntax enhancements? |
| 10:30.11 | jon_y | jonwil: what libs? |
| 10:30.14 | divVerent | like being allowed to declare variables in the middle of a block? |
| 10:30.29 | divVerent | (yes, that enhancement C++ had from the start) |
| 10:30.45 | jon_y | I remember my C lecturer keeps insisting that you CANNOT DECLARE variables in the middle of the block |
| 10:30.59 | jon_y | then again I've been using gnu89 since forever |
| 10:31.00 | divVerent | regarding C11, that is mostly pointless... it adds very little. But also is very easy to implement then. |
| 10:31.05 | jonwil | it adds complex.h, stdbool.h, fenv.h and inttypes.h |
| 10:31.13 | divVerent | I mainly like that there is finally a standard way for thread local variables |
| 10:31.20 | jon_y | that is the whole point of C :) |
| 10:31.30 | jonwil | along with new functions in math.h, ctype.h, wctype.h, stdio.h, stdlib.h and wchar.h |
| 10:31.41 | jon_y | does ms finally have long double? |
| 10:31.44 | divVerent | oh, and gets() FINALLY gone :P |
| 10:31.46 | divVerent | in C11 |
| 10:31.52 | divVerent | jon_y: huh, it did not? |
| 10:32.04 | divVerent | fun fact about long double: it'll soon be gone from the CPUs |
| 10:32.05 | jonwil | Visual C++ current version does not have that |
| 10:32.12 | divVerent | AMD and Intel decided to get rid of it |
| 10:32.14 | jon_y | no, it did not, sizeof(double) == sizeof(long double) |
| 10:32.22 | divVerent | of the 80bit float type |
| 10:32.23 | jonwil | The new one that has been released as a beta has this new header support |
| 10:32.27 | divVerent | because SSE doesn't support it |
| 10:32.30 | jon_y | mingw* had mingwex extensions to do 80bit float |
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| 10:32.39 | divVerent | yes, via x87 FPU instructions |
| 10:32.45 | divVerent | which are deprecated and announced to break "soonish" |
| 10:32.53 | divVerent | so that OS kernels will have to SW emulate 80bit floating point |
| 10:33.00 | bennypr0fane | is it normal that I can't edit the settings for maemo.org repo in HAM? |
| 10:33.06 | jon_y | ehm I don't think SW is going to break |
| 10:33.15 | jonwil | ok, found the URL from the MS blog with the details of C99 support in Visual C++ 2013 |
| 10:33.15 | divVerent | jon_y: not break per se |
| 10:33.16 | jonwil | http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/07/19/c99-library-support-in-visual-studio-2013.aspx |
| 10:33.23 | divVerent | OS kernels will have to implement "assists" for it |
| 10:33.27 | divVerent | basically, emulate them |
| 10:33.29 | jon_y | well, Intel isn't going to break CPU support that is |
| 10:33.37 | divVerent | they will raise illegal instruction, then the kernel steps in and the application won't notice |
| 10:33.42 | divVerent | is how they want it to be |
| 10:33.52 | jon_y | yes, I know about trapping errors |
| 10:34.07 | divVerent | just... a precondition for that is breaking support for old OSes :P |
| 10:34.09 | divVerent | like DOS |
| 10:34.16 | jon_y | normally, MSVC long double functions are exactly the same as double |
| 10:34.19 | divVerent | so I would suppose a CPU that will do this will also be UEFI-only |
| 10:34.23 | divVerent | while at it, let's kill real mode plz? |
| 10:34.43 | jon_y | so mingw* has a different ABI than msvc with floating points |
| 10:34.53 | jonwil | Does GCC support static thread-local-storage on Windows (i.e. __declspec(thread) or whatever GCC has decided to call it) |
| 10:34.59 | jon_y | divVerent: it will only execute signed code :) |
| 10:35.07 | jon_y | yes it does |
| 10:35.07 | jon_y | __thread |
| 10:35.30 | jon_y | __thread int aaa; |
| 10:35.36 | jonwil | ok, great, I remember many years ago I got a copyright assignment for GCC expressly with the intent of trying to add that support |
| 10:35.45 | divVerent | yes |
| 10:35.48 | divVerent | BTW, I only recently had to use long double in new code |
| 10:35.48 | divVerent | I wanted to do some float math on 64bit integers |
| 10:35.48 | divVerent | they JUST fit into 80bit long doubles |
| 10:35.51 | jon_y | it relies on libgcc and windows tls slots |
| 10:35.59 | divVerent | but, that code won't complain if it were to be SW emulated |
| 10:36.22 | jon_y | on MSVC, long double is just double |
| 10:36.26 | jon_y | really just 64bit afaik |
| 10:36.47 | divVerent | fun, C11 allows conforming implementatiosn to have no variable length arrays? interesting |
| 10:37.01 | jon_y | that would be MSVC |
| 10:37.08 | divVerent | does this also imply no alloca()? |
| 10:37.12 | divVerent | as otherwise it's pointless to do that |
| 10:37.14 | jon_y | probably |
| 10:37.29 | jon_y | if you want C, use gcc :) |
| 10:37.34 | divVerent | admittedly, a C++ compiler can emulate alloca() by other means :P |
| 10:37.45 | jon_y | oh no, new[] |
| 10:37.51 | divVerent | i.e. on the heap, and with an automatic destructor |
| 10:38.06 | jon_y | auto_ptr? |
| 10:38.10 | divVerent | i.e. turn char *a = alloca(1234) into unique_ptr<char> a = new char[1234] |
| 10:38.20 | divVerent | basically, yes |
| 10:38.46 | jon_y | yeah, C++ is still looks pretty scary to me |
| 10:39.02 | jon_y | implementation sucks |
| 10:39.04 | divVerent | one other thing I really don't get in C11 |
| 10:39.05 | divVerent | is quick_exit() |
| 10:39.10 | divVerent | do we really need a third exit path? |
| 10:39.13 | jon_y | hmm, what does it do? |
| 10:39.26 | divVerent | like exit() but with a second atexit() function chain |
| 10:39.28 | bennypr0fane | freemangordon, is it normal that I can't edit the settings for maemo.org repo in HAM? |
| 10:39.56 | divVerent | so it doesn't run the regular atexits, but a normally shorter chain of at_quick_exit functions |
| 10:40.01 | jon_y | probably added by some embedded manufacturer |
| 10:40.45 | jon_y | there is also the C11 decimal floating point fun |
| 10:40.57 | jon_y | decoding 128bit decimals is fun |
| 10:41.10 | jon_y | *binaries |
| 10:41.38 | jon_y | I burnt out a bit after writing the decoder for printf* |
| 10:41.53 | *** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 10:42.02 | jon_y | %x was the hardest, 3bits at a time, really!? |
| 10:43.07 | jon_y | I don't even get how float %A even works |
| 10:45.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | bennypr0fane: yes |
| 10:45.42 | LjL-Alps | is it normal for the N900's bundled headphones to sound wrong when connected to other stuff (stuff that doesn't use the microphone contacts at least)? and strangely, it sounds right again if i keep the headphones' button pressed |
| 10:47.03 | jonwil | Hmmm, it sounds like the TLS support is not done the way Visual C++ does it |
| 10:47.26 | jon_y | how does tls do it? |
| 10:47.35 | jonwil | Visual C++ does it using the TLS directory in the PE file |
| 10:47.40 | jon_y | using .tls section yes? |
| 10:47.41 | jonwil | and a field in the TEB |
| 10:47.51 | jonwil | oh ok so it does do it the same way as Visual C++ then? |
| 10:47.52 | jon_y | ah ok, mingw* does it too |
| 10:48.11 | jon_y | except just using it for ctor/dtor to run libgcc TlsAlloc |
| 10:48.11 | jonwil | what does it need from libgcc then? |
| 10:48.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | could soembody help me out with the printing on the SoC of OMAP3630 !GB RAM boards? |
| 10:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1GB even |
| 10:48.44 | jonwil | hmmm ok |
| 10:48.58 | jon_y | libgcc will be responsible for the actual initialization, mingw* just provides the ctor/dtor to do it |
| 10:49.17 | jon_y | I mean, all that code was already in libgcc, no sense to rewrite it |
| 10:50.58 | jonwil | The way I was trying to do it way back when was to basically copy what Visual C++ does and store each thread local variable in the .tls segment and access each variable via TEB->0x2C |
| 10:51.22 | jonwil | Where I got stuck was finding a way to make GCC output the correct ASM (which uses the FS or GS segment IIRC) |
| 10:53.06 | bennypr0fane | oh, goody! I installed kernel-power 52, no I'm unable to boot! looks like another reflash is in order... so close... |
| 10:53.13 | divVerent | BTW |
| 10:53.17 | *** join/#maemo shentey (~shentey@g229119212.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 10:53.30 | divVerent | is there a "trick" to make a ThinkPad/Nexus4/iPhone headphone set work with the N900? |
| 10:53.53 | divVerent | by default, it sounds AWFUL because apparently it confuses mic/gnd pins and puts voltage on the gnd, which even changes a lot (about 10hz tone) |
| 10:53.53 | bennypr0fane | divVerent, you mean a wired one? |
| 10:53.56 | divVerent | yes |
| 10:54.01 | divVerent | I want only the headphone part to work... |
| 10:54.10 | divVerent | so is there a way to turn off mic voltage feed (which I suppose is the cause)? |
| 10:54.37 | divVerent | other than by using duct tape :P that actually MIGHT work |
| 10:55.02 | bennypr0fane | afaik wired headsets can't remote control N900, but I've never heard about the headphone function being off |
| 10:55.17 | bennypr0fane | I only ever use bluetooth ones with n900 |
| 10:55.31 | jonwil | I do note though that MingW still doesn't support SEH (as implemented by the kernel on Win32) without extra patches or libs |
| 10:55.31 | divVerent | I only want to hear audio :) |
| 10:55.40 | jonwil | Or has that changed too anyway? :) |
| 10:55.49 | divVerent | jonwil: SEH isn't :P |
| 10:56.09 | *** join/#maemo quackquack (~testuser@unaffiliated/quackquack) |
| 10:56.12 | divVerent | or rather, never understood what is "structured" in it |
| 10:56.13 | LjL-Alps | divVerent: did you see my question above? it looks like the complement of what you asked |
| 10:56.26 | bennypr0fane | divVerent, what is gnd? |
| 10:56.55 | divVerent | bennypr0fane: trying to figure out |
| 10:57.03 | divVerent | which pin is SUPPOSED to be ground, and which IS, on these headphones vs n900 |
| 10:57.21 | divVerent | because I suspect the issue is that there are two ways to assign Ground and Mic to the pins :P |
| 10:57.35 | divVerent | so if I can make the N900 ground the Mic pin, it should work |
| 10:57.49 | bennypr0fane | so you guys say, n900 has the pins set up, so only headphones with the same confusion can work right with it? :-D |
| 10:58.17 | bennypr0fane | *n900 has the pins set up wrong |
| 10:58.44 | bennypr0fane | aha, "gnd" stands for ground |
| 10:58.49 | divVerent | ah, yes |
| 10:59.00 | divVerent | N900 has left right mic ground order |
| 10:59.04 | divVerent | US standard is left right ground mic |
| 10:59.21 | divVerent | N900 isn't "special" here, Nokia did use the same order on 2.5mm plugs for ages |
| 10:59.40 | divVerent | so basically I wonder if there is a software way to turn off the mic voltage |
| 11:00.00 | bennypr0fane | so is that like standard for europe, or just standard for Nokia? |
| 11:00.03 | jon_y | jonwil: SEH as in exceptions? |
| 11:00.16 | jon_y | or do you mean calling __try explicitly? |
| 11:00.56 | jon_y | as for the former, like C++ exceptions, is supported in 64bit |
| 11:01.07 | jon_y | as for 32bit, just waiting for patents to expire |
| 11:02.07 | *** join/#maemo gry (~gry@freenode/staff/gry) |
| 11:02.11 | divVerent | bennypr0fane: I doubt a standard even existed before |
| 11:02.27 | gry | (for those who didn't notice: microsoft bought nokia, it seems, today.) |
| 11:04.42 | divVerent | HAHA, just MAYBE answered my own question |
| 11:05.10 | divVerent | alsamixer has a "jack function" item |
| 11:05.20 | divVerent | it was TV-Out when I plugged the headset in |
| 11:05.33 | divVerent | any other setting doesn't have that buzzing |
| 11:06.31 | *** join/#maemo valerius (~user@95.153.170.207) |
| 11:07.20 | divVerent | don't know if it'll actually play though |
| 11:08.03 | jonwil | Yet another thing to add to the list of things being held back by software patents... |
| 11:08.11 | jonwil | (win32 SEH in GCC) |
| 11:08.31 | jon_y | it expires in 2014 |
| 11:08.38 | jon_y | so, soon |
| 11:11.42 | divVerent | wait, really? Win95 had SEH? |
| 11:11.49 | divVerent | or did they patent it then not use it for ages? |
| 11:11.58 | jonwil | Microsoft doesn't hold the patent IIRC |
| 11:12.10 | jonwil | IIRC its Borland that does |
| 11:12.35 | jonwil | or whoever inherited it from the corpse of Borland |
| 11:12.55 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178227121.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 11:12.57 | jonwil | As a software developer I think software patents are stupid period for all sorts of reasons. |
| 11:13.06 | divVerent | "depends" but usually this is the case |
| 11:13.18 | divVerent | especially patents on file format reading just shouldn't exist, ever |
| 11:13.19 | joga | go NZ |
| 11:13.36 | bennypr0fane | gry MS didn't buy all of Nokia, just their "devices&services" |
| 11:14.00 | joga | I wonder if rubber boots are "devices" or not |
| 11:14.08 | jaska | wading device |
| 11:14.20 | jaska | but tires and such were spun off much earlier |
| 11:14.26 | gry | bennypr0fane: yes, that's what I meant. sorry for being vague. (that was the main part of it that I knew of.) |
| 11:14.42 | jonwil | The patents on things like MPEG or Elliptic Curve Cryptography are definatly one of the kinds of patents that really need to go away |
| 11:15.42 | bennypr0fane | divVerent, jonwil , SEH is this? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/swezty51%28v=vs.90%29.aspx |
| 11:16.08 | divVerent | jonwil: sort of, indeed |
| 11:16.27 | jonwil | SEH in this case is this |
| 11:16.28 | divVerent | I understand that patents on encoding algorithms MIGHT be useful. Decompression of videos however MUST be free. |
| 11:16.29 | jonwil | http://www.microsoft.com/msj/0197/Exception/Exception.aspx |
| 11:16.38 | jon_y | jonwil: yes, borland patents |
| 11:16.40 | divVerent | But even if they are useful, 20 years is INSANE in this field. |
| 11:16.48 | jon_y | though they promised not to sue |
| 11:18.45 | bennypr0fane | divVerent, I'm interested in that "patents on file format reading" area. It seems to me that Linux (-applications) cannot read all the metadata of MS office files, specifically author, keywords,... the classic set also attached to all PDFs |
| 11:19.02 | bennypr0fane | you guys know anything about that? |
| 11:20.02 | bennypr0fane | I keep wonderin if that's anything to do with the closed file MS formats, or rather with the file systems |
| 11:20.20 | bennypr0fane | *closed MS file formats |
| 11:21.14 | bennypr0fane | divVerent, I think the way patents are handled by the US jurisdiction is just generally insane overall |
| 11:21.16 | divVerent | bennypr0fane: no, that isn't a patent issue |
| 11:21.21 | divVerent | more of a lack of useful documentation issue |
| 11:21.27 | bennypr0fane | hmmm |
| 11:21.38 | divVerent | bennypr0fane: especially bad are "unavoidable patents" for supporting a file format |
| 11:21.39 | divVerent | e.g. S3TC |
| 11:21.49 | divVerent | I wonder if the final one of the S3TC patents is finally killed? |
| 11:21.56 | divVerent | three out of four were down'd by Apple |
| 11:22.11 | jonwil | Patents on file SYSTEMS are the lowest of the low and really need to go |
| 11:22.23 | jon_y | FAT is still patented |
| 11:22.29 | jon_y | MS trying to push exFAT |
| 11:22.30 | divVerent | you mean VFAT :P |
| 11:22.33 | jonwil | i.e. all the various FAT type patents Microsoft is so fond of using to kill their competitors |
| 11:22.37 | divVerent | original FAT is expired |
| 11:22.44 | divVerent | but the long file name extensions aren't |
| 11:22.50 | jon_y | well, exFAT going to go another 20 years |
| 11:22.55 | bennypr0fane | WUT? FAT is patented? |
| 11:22.55 | divVerent | yes |
| 11:23.00 | divVerent | FAT was, but is too old now |
| 11:23.09 | divVerent | only the Win95-introduced LFN extension still has SOME validity time left |
| 11:23.18 | jon_y | yeah, original DOS FAT is no longer under patent |
| 11:23.27 | jon_y | VFAT aka long file names is |
| 11:23.37 | jon_y | FAT32 also, probably |
| 11:23.45 | kerio | who the hell would *want* a patent for vfat |
| 11:23.48 | divVerent | no, FAT32 did not add anything vs FAT |
| 11:23.52 | divVerent | nothing to patent there |
| 11:23.54 | kerio | i'd be ashamed of it |
| 11:23.55 | divVerent | VFAT is the issue, though :P |
| 11:23.57 | divVerent | kerio: hehe |
| 11:24.04 | jonwil | It seems like Microsoft will continue to have device makers and memory card makers over a barrel because they will never support any filesystems on Windows that they dont own and control |
| 11:24.14 | jonwil | therefore device makers have to use the MS file systems (i.e. fat and now exfat) |
| 11:24.17 | jonwil | and pay MS the royalties |
| 11:24.26 | divVerent | jonwil: that's the idea |
| 11:24.38 | divVerent | the only ones who would have a chance to achieve something else is Apple... |
| 11:24.42 | divVerent | but then it's THEIR patented crap |
| 11:24.49 | kerio | not only that |
| 11:24.53 | kerio | apple sucks at file systems too |
| 11:25.05 | kerio | HFS+ is such a bad filesystem |
| 11:25.09 | bennypr0fane | how long have all you guys been in programming? I'm starting IT school right now, yesterday was my first day |
| 11:25.09 | divVerent | that too |
| 11:25.18 | divVerent | kerio: fun fact: you can make working .dmg files on Linux |
| 11:25.21 | divVerent | tool: mkisofs :P |
| 11:25.24 | jon_y | bennypr0fane: 4 years? :) |
| 11:25.28 | divVerent | OS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine if renamed to .dmg |
| 11:25.36 | divVerent | even WITHOUT the HFS extensions |
| 11:25.37 | bennypr0fane | I'm really excited |
| 11:25.40 | kerio | OS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine, period |
| 11:25.47 | kerio | the default action for .iso files is to mount them |
| 11:25.58 | divVerent | kerio: oh right... still .dmg is needed so the apple fanboys are happy |
| 11:25.59 | jon_y | bennypr0fane: make sure you learn C, don't give a crap about those hipsters that say C is outdated |
| 11:26.16 | jon_y | it is the very foundation to understand what is going on behind the JVM |
| 11:26.20 | divVerent | C is outdated, but so? Doesn't make it not useful. |
| 11:26.21 | bennypr0fane | jon_y you mean 4 years work, or 4 years ago you started your education? |
| 11:26.22 | kerio | jon_y: he's starting IT school, he's not going to learn how to program |
| 11:26.22 | divVerent | Exactly. |
| 11:26.36 | jon_y | 4 years since I learned programming |
| 11:26.38 | divVerent | You won't write a whole web forum in C, for example :P |
| 11:26.41 | kerio | he'll probably learn how to program in spite of his IT school |
| 11:26.43 | divVerent | you COULD, but it'd be stupid |
| 11:26.47 | bennypr0fane | heard real men code in C :-D |
| 11:26.50 | kerio | divVerent: and by stupid, you mean AWESOME |
| 11:26.56 | divVerent | that too |
| 11:26.56 | jon_y | of course you won't do it in C, you get the basics in C |
| 11:26.59 | divVerent | but total waste of time |
| 11:27.00 | joga | first time I programmed some 23 years ago or something, but never really worked as a programmer (I'm concerned I would be too stressful for me) ;p |
| 11:27.14 | jon_y | and for goodness sake, read the linkers and loaders pdf too |
| 11:27.18 | divVerent | yes |
| 11:27.23 | divVerent | the knowledge is important |
| 11:27.27 | divVerent | of how stuff actually works |
| 11:27.31 | jon_y | understand wtf is going on when you run programs |
| 11:27.34 | jonwil | I am a programmer by profession although I have not been able to find a job in my area for a while |
| 11:27.35 | divVerent | or you e.g. use C++ then don't understand why something weird is happening |
| 11:27.36 | bennypr0fane | linkers and loaders pdf? |
| 11:27.54 | jon_y | it is free, find it on google |
| 11:27.58 | divVerent | like "why can't I just return a reference to a local variable?" |
| 11:28.02 | joga | it's good to know low-level stuff |
| 11:28.09 | jon_y | teach you about executable file formats |
| 11:28.18 | joga | if only to remind you there's something else under all that crap |
| 11:28.23 | bennypr0fane | jonwil, that is unusual, no? |
| 11:28.31 | jon_y | so far it covers linux a.out, elf, win32 PE, and DOS exe and COM |
| 11:29.07 | jon_y | oh, if you have the time, learn about CPU architecture design too |
| 11:29.22 | jon_y | know it when sales people are bullshitting you on hardware |
| 11:29.22 | bennypr0fane | It's always seemed to me (from the outside, so far) that low-level programming is the most highbrow studd to understand |
| 11:29.36 | jon_y | highbrow how? |
| 11:29.39 | jonwil | The problem I am finding is that all the people offering programming jobs in my area are asking for 2 or 3 or 5 years experience in technologies I dont really understand |
| 11:29.44 | bennypr0fane | *stuff |
| 11:29.59 | jon_y | jonwil: opensource doesn't count? :( |
| 11:30.07 | bennypr0fane | jonwil, which technologies? |
| 11:31.03 | bennypr0fane | is it this one? http://norfs.sourceforge.net/linkers_and_loaders.pdf |
| 11:31.07 | jonwil | Stuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some others I cant remember off the top of my head |
| 11:31.07 | jon_y | yes |
| 11:31.20 | jon_y | ew, J2ME |
| 11:31.27 | jon_y | *J2EE |
| 11:31.33 | jonwil | oh and Sharepoint too |
| 11:31.45 | divVerent | 13:31:06 jonwil | Stuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some |
| 11:31.46 | bennypr0fane | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:31.47 | divVerent | hehe |
| 11:31.48 | jon_y | I worked on this Java codebase before, it was so enterprisy |
| 11:31.59 | divVerent | of these, I would probably not admit the J2EE part :P |
| 11:32.16 | jon_y | class inheriting classes |
| 11:32.20 | divVerent | I never list Java related stuff on my resume because I hate the Java runtime library |
| 11:32.25 | jon_y | base class did not have any prublic methods |
| 11:32.36 | divVerent | don't want to code Java all day\ |
| 11:32.38 | jon_y | and using instanceof() in derived classes |
| 11:32.43 | jon_y | egads |
| 11:32.49 | jon_y | why do you even do that |
| 11:32.52 | divVerent | using instanceof explicitly? |
| 11:32.56 | jon_y | yes |
| 11:33.00 | divVerent | well, first... SOME uses are there |
| 11:33.06 | jon_y | this code should be on thedailywtf |
| 11:33.08 | divVerent | e.g. if you have a derived method taking another object |
| 11:33.20 | jon_y | divVerent: it was doing if-else instanceof |
| 11:33.21 | divVerent | you may want to know if the other object is of your derived class or if you only can assume the base class |
| 11:33.26 | divVerent | hehe |
| 11:33.32 | divVerent | instanceof of ANOTHER than your current class is weird |
| 11:33.45 | divVerent | but e.g. derived Equals methods tend to do check for the other object to be instanceof your own class |
| 11:33.52 | jon_y | if(instanceof) dothis else if(instanceof) dosomething ..... |
| 11:34.04 | divVerent | I hope they didn't do this in the base class, even |
| 11:34.08 | jon_y | long long chains for each branch of the inheritance |
| 11:34.16 | jon_y | base class didn't have anything |
| 11:34.20 | divVerent | the base class containing an instanceof chain mention all subclasses... |
| 11:34.23 | jon_y | no public methods |
| 11:34.23 | divVerent | that would be DailyWTF worthy |
| 11:34.33 | bennypr0fane | In your opinion, what is the best channel to hang out in for getting help with newbie issues? And the kind of questions I asked above? |
| 11:34.40 | divVerent | more DailyWTF score if the subclasses are all empty |
| 11:34.40 | *** join/#maemo goldkatze (~nobody@unaffiliated/goldkatze) |
| 11:34.44 | jon_y | all this was just a tree structure implementation |
| 11:34.45 | divVerent | and all logic is done by instanceof in the base class :P |
| 11:35.01 | divVerent | this is almost as good as the for-case paradigm then :P |
| 11:35.13 | jon_y | also, it had add() but no remove() in the derived classes |
| 11:35.19 | divVerent | haha, really? |
| 11:35.22 | jon_y | yes |
| 11:35.31 | divVerent | well, remove() not defined in the parent then, I hope |
| 11:35.33 | jon_y | oh we're agile, we don't need it yet |
| 11:35.51 | jon_y | as I said, base class had nothing |
| 11:35.51 | divVerent | then it's actually SOMEWHAT ok... |
| 11:35.56 | divVerent | except for the base class has nothing part |
| 11:35.59 | divVerent | why have that class then |
| 11:36.02 | jon_y | just a child array of objects |
| 11:36.10 | jon_y | I asked the same thing |
| 11:36.27 | divVerent | that also means the abstract base class didn't implement an interface defining the methods, right? |
| 11:36.30 | jon_y | got no response other than because it was there already |
| 11:36.32 | bennypr0fane | not that I think you guys can't help me, but it's obviously more for experienced people in here :-) (besides the fact that we've been off topic for hours) |
| 11:36.58 | jon_y | it only had a private array of object called "child" |
| 11:37.08 | jon_y | or was it protected I can't remember |
| 11:37.12 | divVerent | jon_y: haha... maybe anonymize that in a few months and post to dailywtf? |
| 11:37.28 | jon_y | yeah, I don't even want to dig it up |
| 11:37.38 | jon_y | thankfully I don't work on it anymore |
| 11:38.14 | jon_y | the program was a monstermash of TCSH, BASH, Java, Perl and C |
| 11:38.14 | divVerent | speaking of dailywtf: recently sent this to them: view-source:http://www.led24.ch |
| 11:38.20 | divVerent | but probably won't make it to the frong page |
| 11:38.40 | jon_y | the program was converted from C++, so I heard |
| 11:38.53 | jon_y | but half way through they found out Java had no fork() |
| 11:39.10 | divVerent | they apparently wanted to make sure that the newline at the bottom of the HTML source is in Arial 20, and not in Times 24 like the rest |
| 11:39.17 | jon_y | nor did it have any PID/process management calls |
| 11:39.20 | divVerent | jon_y: haha, Java and fork()... |
| 11:39.27 | divVerent | reminds me of something :P Android-related... |
| 11:39.30 | divVerent | and OpenSSL-related |
| 11:39.30 | jon_y | you know what they did? :) |
| 11:39.51 | divVerent | it's public, the android openssl thing that led to bitcoins being stolen |
| 11:40.00 | jon_y | ran a process starter on itself and restarted itself again |
| 11:40.01 | divVerent | long story short: Android loads OpenSSL, then uses fork(). |
| 11:40.05 | divVerent | And OpenSSL is not fork-safe |
| 11:40.21 | divVerent | as in, the random number generator state is just cloned too |
| 11:40.26 | divVerent | so all apps had the same RNG state |
| 11:40.45 | jon_y | well duh, static structures are cloned |
| 11:40.50 | divVerent | yes |
| 11:40.53 | divVerent | and the best part |
| 11:41.00 | jon_y | that would be the whole point of fork() |
| 11:41.00 | divVerent | this very same bug also hit PostgreSQL and Ruby |
| 11:41.16 | divVerent | yes, there was in all of them lack of special handling for invalidating the state on fork |
| 11:41.21 | divVerent | e.g. by adding more randomness from /dev/urandom |
| 11:41.43 | jon_y | >counting on urandom for anything serious |
| 11:41.45 | jon_y | what. |
| 11:41.50 | divVerent | that's kinda ok in this case |
| 11:41.56 | divVerent | it only matters that the mixed in state is different :P |
| 11:42.03 | divVerent | in this specific case, that is, not in general |
| 11:42.20 | divVerent | even using the PID would be secure enough, assuming a cryptographically secure PRNG |
| 11:42.31 | divVerent | well... and what did OpenSSL do? It DID use the PID... |
| 11:42.39 | divVerent | however, PIDs can repeat, which is why exactly this does not suffice |
| 11:42.45 | divVerent | an ever increasing counter would have done then |
| 11:42.49 | divVerent | or using the PID at the right time |
| 11:42.57 | divVerent | e.g. mixing in the child process's PID when the parent forked |
| 11:43.14 | jon_y | oh, there is another wtf from the java program, well on the current maintainer anyway |
| 11:43.19 | divVerent | thing is, if a RNG is cryptographically secure, and you fork the state |
| 11:43.25 | divVerent | and one process mixes in 1, the other mixes in 0 |
| 11:43.26 | jon_y | for-loops and parallelism, oh boy |
| 11:43.35 | divVerent | then an attacker still can't infer anything about the other process's RNG from its own one |
| 11:44.05 | jon_y | unlooping the for loops so each elements can be fed into a parallel scheduler is apparently bad |
| 11:44.09 | divVerent | for-loops and parallelism, how is that a wtf? |
| 11:44.19 | divVerent | oh, wait... a tight for loop handld THAT way? |
| 11:44.35 | jon_y | because multithreaded code is hard to read and we need the UI to block to show the user it is doing something |
| 11:44.50 | jon_y | why!!!!?? you call yourself a phd and you say that!!! |
| 11:44.55 | divVerent | why not just #pragma omp for |
| 11:45.04 | jon_y | it is a java program |
| 11:45.07 | divVerent | I know |
| 11:45.11 | divVerent | just saying... one CAN do it right |
| 11:45.20 | jon_y | more like looping down a tree structure |
| 11:45.28 | divVerent | oh wait, parallel tree traversal? |
| 11:45.30 | divVerent | THAT sounds... insane |
| 11:45.37 | jon_y | unlooping involves flattening it first |
| 11:45.48 | divVerent | which is already a full tree traversal |
| 11:45.51 | jon_y | and the feeding all the elements into a job scheduler |
| 11:45.54 | jonwil | I wish more people would take security (including cryptography, SQL injection etc) more seriously |
| 11:46.01 | divVerent | jonwil: indeed |
| 11:46.01 | jon_y | that was my idea anyway |
| 11:46.07 | divVerent | but in this case, I have a hard time blaming anyone |
| 11:46.10 | divVerent | regarding OpenSSL vs fork |
| 11:46.18 | jon_y | nope, lead developer insists on using for loops and recursive calls |
| 11:46.27 | divVerent | OpenSSL guys say they want portable code, no unixisms like doing something odd to catch fork use (and be it by pthread_atfork) |
| 11:46.54 | divVerent | and Android/Postgres/Ruby guys... well |
| 11:47.02 | divVerent | OpenSSL kinda HID the issue by mixing in the PID on each random call |
| 11:47.13 | jon_y | granted I'm not majoring in compsci, but guys, why you hate multithread so much? |
| 11:47.14 | divVerent | so they quickly tested, saw "ah, the state differed", and were happy |
| 11:47.25 | divVerent | jon_y: I don't hate it |
| 11:47.27 | divVerent | I hate ugly code from it |
| 11:47.32 | divVerent | but one can write it well too |
| 11:47.38 | jon_y | divVerent: I mean the lead developer |
| 11:47.43 | divVerent | I know |
| 11:47.45 | kerio | openssh abuses every cute little feature of openbsd, on the other hand |
| 11:47.51 | divVerent | he has once seen really bad threaded code |
| 11:47.58 | divVerent | and then hated threads in general |
| 11:48.12 | jon_y | how hard can flattening a tree structure be? |
| 11:48.18 | kerio | jon_y: what's wrong with urandom? :o |
| 11:48.22 | divVerent | JUST the flattening? Easy. |
| 11:48.25 | kerio | isn't it guaranteed to be crypto-secure? |
| 11:48.32 | divVerent | kerio: "sort of" |
| 11:48.34 | divVerent | it's still a PRNG |
| 11:48.41 | jon_y | kerio: urandom is not guaranteed to have enough randomness |
| 11:48.43 | divVerent | but I would still trust it over whatever some library provides - and be it OpenSSL |
| 11:48.50 | divVerent | jon_y: neither is any other PRNG |
| 11:48.52 | divVerent | like OpenSSL's |
| 11:48.56 | divVerent | P stands for pseudo after all |
| 11:49.01 | jon_y | random would block if there isn't enough randomness |
| 11:49.04 | divVerent | yes |
| 11:49.07 | divVerent | if you want that, do that |
| 11:49.17 | jon_y | yeah |
| 11:49.34 | divVerent | in this specific case, I probably would rather have read 16 bytes of /dev/random on fork |
| 11:49.38 | jon_y | urandom is "give me something, I don't care how random it is" |
| 11:49.41 | divVerent | 128 bits of extra entropy per process is probably enough |
| 11:49.45 | divVerent | and usually doesn't block |
| 11:49.46 | jon_y | even if it is not |
| 11:49.49 | kerio | jon_y: but it's crypto-secure! |
| 11:49.53 | kerio | :c |
| 11:49.57 | kerio | it says so |
| 11:50.02 | divVerent | urandom is about as crypto secure as OpenSSL's :P |
| 11:50.08 | divVerent | both shouldn't claim it |
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| 11:50.45 | jon_y | oh, btw, the java program calls a small C program that read timestamps etc |
| 11:50.57 | jon_y | the lead programmer said the java code did it too slowly |
| 11:51.04 | jon_y | really, you wonder why |
| 11:51.24 | jon_y | unfortunately, the C code was written by an intern that has long left |
| 11:51.55 | jon_y | using glib because he didn't know how to do malloc/free memory management |
| 11:51.57 | ccxCZ | what video formats/codecs are supported on maemo? |
| 11:52.07 | jon_y | nor know how to concaternate strings in C |
| 11:52.21 | Macer | ccxCZ: i think only h2xx is supported video hw decoding |
| 11:52.47 | Macer | but you can always install mplayer for everything albeit at the expense of cpu |
| 11:53.16 | ccxCZ | kthnx |
| 11:53.22 | jon_y | I have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to system() |
| 11:53.27 | Macer | ccxCZ: there is a site about it |
| 11:53.28 | ccxCZ | so I guess avi for the container |
| 11:53.29 | Macer | uhm... |
| 11:53.35 | Macer | ~video |
| 11:53.35 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, video is interrupt 10h for the video BIOS |
| 11:53.40 | Macer | ok that's not it |
| 11:53.56 | Macer | https://wiki.maemo.org/Video_encoding |
| 11:53.58 | Macer | there it is |
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| 11:59.57 | ccxCZ | thanks |
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| 12:29.14 | divVerent | 13:51:55 jon_y | using glib because he didn't know how to do |
| 12:29.16 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:29.23 | divVerent | jon_y: wait |
| 12:29.26 | divVerent | glib doesn't solve this either |
| 12:29.31 | divVerent | so you SURE have a leak there :P |
| 12:30.36 | divVerent | 13:53:22 jon_y | I have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to |
| 12:30.38 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:30.46 | divVerent | jon_y: ARGH... TOTALLY reminds me of an old project |
| 12:30.58 | divVerent | task: they are in PHP, and want to send a command to a serial port |
| 12:31.28 | divVerent | problem: they don't know that fopen() works on devices too, and can't access it from PHP anyway |
| 12:31.41 | divVerent | their solution: run apache process as root, and PHP code like this: |
| 12:31.52 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:32.02 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:32.09 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:32.12 | divVerent | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:32.26 | divVerent | do I have to mention that $stuff also came from the user and was not sanitized... |
| 12:33.13 | divVerent | also, obviously there was nothing to prevent the obvious race condition(s) |
| 12:33.43 | divVerent | the only GOOD part: this stuff isn't connected to the internet, usually. Only to a home automation network. |
| 12:34.21 | divVerent | but it does beat the "internet cafe" I r00ted via netscape (to get rid of the restrictions and timer of free use) |
| 12:34.56 | divVerent | they had restrictions via a proxy setting in netscape... but there was ONE trick. ONE link on the mainpage opened in new window. That window had a menu bar, so I could turn off the proxy. Voila, free access. |
| 12:35.28 | divVerent | then used the window's address bar to look around... essentially associated *.sh with the shell in netscape settings, and used JavaScript:'some text' then File/save as to create scripts I could run |
| 12:35.47 | divVerent | the timer daemon ran as another user... not bad |
| 12:35.51 | divVerent | but as root... a bit worse |
| 12:36.03 | divVerent | but the kiosk user had kiosk ALL=(ALL) ALL in /etc/sudoers... THAT was bad |
| 12:36.21 | divVerent | so having found that, kill -STOP timerpid and the thing was free :P |
| 12:36.27 | divVerent | (with sudo) |
| 12:37.12 | divVerent | oh, I forgot the NOPASSWD: part :P |
| 12:39.46 | jon_y | divVerent: oh now I remember |
| 12:39.51 | LjL-Alps | am i supposed to confirm somewhere (and if so, where) that the cssu-devel fix for SUPL works? |
| 12:40.01 | jon_y | wait, glib does do some momory management stuff |
| 12:40.16 | jon_y | a long with some utility code |
| 12:41.14 | freemangordon | LjL-Alps: oncssu-devel thread? |
| 12:41.21 | freemangordon | ~cssu-devel |
| 12:41.22 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, cssu-devel is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84292, or extremely deprecated for any non-developer |
| 12:42.09 | LjL-Alps | freemangordon: ok, i didn't know whether an influx of "me too" would be welcome there |
| 12:42.23 | jon_y | divVerent: well, I did not have your level of exploit :) |
| 12:43.09 | jon_y | most of this stuff was written by guys used to writing shell scripts |
| 12:43.32 | jon_y | I'm tempted to give "script kiddie" another meaning |
| 12:44.28 | jon_y | alt meaning is "guys who write shell scripts, should not be trusted with anything compiled" |
| 12:44.47 | freemangordon | LjL-Alps: hmm? wouldn't be wecomed by whom? |
| 12:45.26 | LjL-Alps | freemangordon: by TMO at large. anyway i guess maybe if i just say "it works" here in your presence, that'll be enough feedback? :P |
| 12:45.30 | freemangordon | the whole point of that thread is to report cssu-devel related stuff |
| 12:45.40 | LjL-Alps | fair enough |
| 12:45.50 | LjL-Alps | i'll try supl.google.com and then give it a post |
| 12:46.06 | freemangordon | no change for google supl |
| 12:46.14 | freemangordon | it still doesn;t work |
| 12:46.20 | LjL-Alps | ah, no change? some people on the thread said it started working too |
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| 12:46.36 | freemangordon | NFC, it has never stopped working for me :D |
| 12:46.44 | LjL-Alps | oh :P |
| 12:47.06 | freemangordon | but that might by just my MNO supl working, not google |
| 12:47.24 | LjL-Alps | your what, freemangordon? |
| 12:47.38 | freemangordon | mobile network operator |
| 12:47.42 | LjL-Alps | oh |
| 12:47.59 | LjL-Alps | i thought Maemo only used the one specified in the settings |
| 12:48.07 | freemangordon | no |
| 12:48.32 | freemangordon | it uses network supplied supl server too, if any |
| 12:48.46 | freemangordon | but first tries the one in the settings |
| 12:49.25 | LjL-Alps | i wonder if carriers charge for data usage (assuming you don't have a flat plan) when connecting to their own supl |
| 12:50.41 | freemangordon | nfc, i have data plan |
| 12:50.54 | LjL-Alps | me too, just idly wondering |
| 12:51.14 | freemangordon | I guess it is similar to MMS |
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| 13:14.24 | LjL-Alps | i wish i had brought a usb hub with me, or whatever would work to connect to the RTLSDR |
| 13:16.10 | LjL-Alps | except, i have!!! |
| 13:16.28 | LjL-Alps | host mode here i come |
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| 13:18.21 | LjL-Alps | yayayay it works |
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| 13:22.18 | divVerent | news about my trying to make an unsupported headset work via alsamixer: |
| 13:22.23 | divVerent | the mic just can't be used, as expected |
| 13:22.34 | divVerent | the headphones work, but the mic port can only be set to float, not ground |
| 13:22.47 | divVerent | by that alsamixer setting that decides what type of device is plugged in |
| 13:23.00 | divVerent | basically means no stere, but I hear difference of L and R |
| 13:23.15 | edheldil | LjL-Alps: do you use DVB-T dongle with it? |
| 13:23.17 | divVerent | still... not bad, works as "emergency headphones" that way |
| 13:24.41 | divVerent | BTW, hint to those who don't know: alsamixer -c 0 is the trick to get useful settings and not pulseaudio crap :P |
| 13:24.44 | LjL-Alps | edheldil: that's the idea, but so far i've only checked that the DVB-T dongle powers up, and that some MP3 player goes into mass storage mode. still not tried anything else |
| 13:26.13 | edheldil | ah, I thought you were interested in the RTLSDR part :) |
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| 13:29.10 | LjL-Alps | edheldil: i am |
| 13:29.25 | LjL-Alps | edheldil: i'm just saying, so far i didn't get RTLSDR working. only hostmode. but that's a start1 |
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| 13:29.37 | LjL-Alps | especially since i didn't think i had a cable that could do USB-OTG |
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| 15:30.01 | Sicelo | ugh.. |
| 15:30.15 | Sicelo | so it's happened :( |
| 15:31.02 | Sicelo | Micro-Nokia-soft |
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| 15:35.12 | jonwil | Me, I will continue to use (and hack on and play with) my N900 until it either dies and becomes unusable, until something happens at my carrier that renders it unusable (e.g. if my carrier stops using frequencies the N900 supports) or until a better phone comes along (which at this point is highly unlikely) |
| 15:36.11 | Sicelo | me too jonwil. my N900 is my daily device. i still have a working n-gage too, and a 9300i communicator which i gave away, but it's found it's way back to me. |
| 15:36.30 | Sicelo | feels like removing the nokia logo from the bezel |
| 15:36.36 | jonwil | My N900 is also my daily (and only) phone. |
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| 15:37.18 | Sicelo | and good to see you jonwil :) |
| 15:38.17 | jonwil | I fear that no company will have the willingness to make a high-end smartphone with a full physical QWERTY again anytime soon |
| 15:38.49 | jonwil | which means if my N900 dies, my only options are to buy a used N900 as a replacement or give up my love of physical keyboards :( |
| 15:38.55 | Sicelo | even if they did, might just be so closed that you can't do anything on such a phone |
| 15:39.22 | jonwil | yeah that would suck |
| 15:42.58 | jonwil | Seems like all the interest in reverse engineering this phone and figuring out how it works seems to have died off, even I cant get inspired to get back into reverse engineering if no-one out there cares about my results |
| 15:43.25 | Sicelo | what makes you feel that way? |
| 15:43.41 | jonwil | just general observations from what I see on tmo etc |
| 15:43.50 | Sicelo | as far as i can tell, from user POV, interest is still high |
| 15:45.01 | jonwil | I have noticed that in the past there was a sort of "hey, if we can replace <closed source subsystem x> with something better, that's a good thing" (e.g. ICD or MCE) but now the attitude I observe from the technical people is "forget about it, if it works, why bother trying to replace it" |
| 15:45.16 | Sicelo | hmm. :( |
| 15:46.03 | Pali | jonwil: probably you means me: I wrote that about closed source ipv6 module for icd2 |
| 15:46.10 | Sicelo | well, i know for sure that some (Pali, FMG) are still pushing to have stuff replaced, incl. the kernel |
| 15:46.22 | Sicelo | ah, there's Pali to speak for himself :) |
| 15:46.49 | Pali | I wrote that because it really does not make sense to RE only one closed plugin in big ICD2 |
| 15:47.23 | Pali | and it really does not make sense to RE ICD2 |
| 15:47.46 | Pali | better network daemon should be written from scratch and only needs to have icd2 i2c interface |
| 15:47.51 | Pali | which is of cource public |
| 15:48.24 | jonwil | It matters to reverse engineer ICD2 and its plugins as other things talk to it via not just dbus |
| 15:48.33 | jonwil | but also via other methods that are not documented |
| 15:48.47 | Pali | so only RE API |
| 15:49.17 | Pali | (documented/undocumented dbus/IPC) |
| 15:49.30 | jonwil | Thats what I have been doing over time |
| 15:49.42 | jonwil | reverse engineering the interfaces to ICD and its plugins |
| 15:49.44 | jonwil | but its hard |
| 15:49.49 | Sicelo | \o/ jonwil |
| 15:49.50 | jonwil | especially when dealing with things like gconf |
| 15:50.03 | Pali | jonwil: freemangordon and ade wanted to RE some hildon code |
| 15:50.09 | Pali | maybe you can help |
| 15:50.19 | jonwil | what hildon code specifically? |
| 15:50.31 | Pali | hildon code for notification or something similar |
| 15:50.45 | Pali | bad that he is offline now :-( |
| 15:50.52 | Pali | will try to look at chanlog |
| 15:51.40 | jonwil | sounds like hildon-plugins-notify-sv package |
| 15:51.53 | Pali | I think yes |
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| 15:52.25 | jonwil | I have tried to re that but its too hard :( |
| 15:52.34 | Pali | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:53.53 | Pali | jonwil: it is really hard to RE this? ^ |
| 15:54.21 | jonwil | last I checked it was annoying to RE, yes |
| 15:54.36 | Pali | ok |
| 15:54.54 | Pali | and systemui or clockd daemon? |
| 15:55.00 | dos11 | I guess Microsoft-Nokia news has been already mentioned here gasilion times |
| 15:55.02 | jonwil | both also hard to RE |
| 15:55.10 | dos11 | but have you seen the true story behind it? https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/1170764_623665574332364_1926310099_n.jpg |
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| 15:57.04 | Sicelo | yes dos1. i'm late to the party. but the news is still scary enough. anyways |
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| 15:58.34 | shentey | what about using connman as icd2 replacement? |
| 15:59.27 | Orgul | jonwil, Pali: while on one hand I don't mind to get meamo more open if it's RE'd but on the other hand didn't you already do a lot and upstream pretty much everything? shouldn't you be at the point where you could simply compile a new os without maemo closed bits? |
| 15:59.50 | jonwil | We are nowhere near that level |
| 15:59.59 | jonwil | Plenty of key parts that have not been REd or replaced |
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| 16:01.12 | Orgul | jonwil: if you want to stay compatible with maemo or generaly spoken? |
| 16:02.00 | jonwil | If you just want "an OS" on the N900, there are ways to do it with minimal binary blobs (GPU driver being one of the few that still remain) |
| 16:02.05 | Sicelo | Orgul: also N900 hardware itself.. afaik, we don't yet have good power-savings out of Maemo for example |
| 16:02.18 | kerio | that's just a matter of correct configuration though |
| 16:02.24 | kerio | it's not dependent on any closed blob |
| 16:02.43 | Sicelo | ok. |
| 16:05.51 | Orgul | okay, let's set GPU aside. Is it still impossible to do a meamo like os for n900? based on upstream software? I mean I still don't get modem to work in debian but you guys are probably got this. |
| 16:06.42 | Sicelo | i did do GPRS/D3G in Debian.. that part is easy |
| 16:07.14 | Sicelo | s/D3/3/ |
| 16:08.26 | Orgul | so from my point of view all that missing is a nice gui for phone calls. okay, I nice gui in general in debian but I keep wondering why still maemo. |
| 16:08.43 | jonwil | someone with greater RE skills than me could probably reverse engineer the x86 versions of hildon-plugins-notify-sv, systemui or clockd |
| 16:08.51 | jonwil | but I lack the skills to RE those binaries |
| 16:09.21 | kerio | Orgul: you're actually missing programs that don't drain your battery by using the cpu when backgrounded, for instance |
| 16:10.41 | Sicelo | not to disturb your train of thought jonwil .. question: what uses the x86 version of the binaries? surely in scratchbox arm binaries are used.. |
| 16:10.59 | jonwil | no, x86 is used in scratchbox |
| 16:11.45 | Orgul | kerio: ok, yes. debian wise. in case you guys do something new, and use a recent kernel you could implement upstreamed android bits, like wakelocks and stuff. I mean it's there, it could as well be used. |
| 16:11.59 | kerio | yeah, shit like that is the reason android sucks |
| 16:12.16 | Sicelo | interesting. 10 times wanted to setup scratchbox already.. but each time stopped because i don't really know 'what then?' |
| 16:12.24 | kerio | programs might have a valid reason to do stuff in background |
| 16:12.36 | kerio | i'd expect them to do that stuff, were i using one of those programs |
| 16:14.26 | Orgul | kerio: I don't know much about it, but I don't think it impossible to have background application running. It's a matter of configuration. other then that it's a power saving feature. Sorry if I am wrong or imposing. |
| 16:14.57 | jonwil | I do wonder what libhildon-plugins-notify-sv is doing though and why it needed to be closed-source |
| 16:14.59 | Sicelo | not imposing at all :) |
| 16:15.25 | kerio | the thing is, (most) current maemo programs already know how to behave |
| 16:15.35 | Sicelo | but Orgul, android's way is clearly 'feature-phone' like :p |
| 16:15.46 | kerio | programs installed straight from the debian repos are much less guaranteed |
| 16:16.59 | jonwil | Seems mostly to be related to playing sounds and things (e.g. vibra) for events like incoming phone call, incoming SMS, alarm, incoming IM etc. |
| 16:19.42 | Orgul | Sicelo: true, but it does save power, doesn't it? it was just an Idea. I am not competent enough to give help anyway. Just thinking. |
| 16:20.17 | kerio | Orgul: the thing is, it implies a lack of trust in the programmer |
| 16:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | FYI: first hand info about smartreflex aka SR: >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<< |
| 16:22.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~sr |
| 16:22.29 | infobot | ACTION grabs a SteamRoller flag and cuddles up to docscrutinizer05 |
| 16:22.42 | Orgul | kerio: you mean trust in programmer to design their application to use little power ? |
| 16:22.47 | kerio | eyup |
| 16:23.14 | Orgul | ah, ok. that was a bit difficult. glad I got it. |
| 16:23.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo sr is <reply>[SmartReflex] >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<< |
| 16:23.35 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
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| 16:25.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: possible |
| 16:26.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | a nice new puzzle for you ;-) |
| 16:27.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: how about giving infraction points to a process for each call to usleep() ? |
| 16:28.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | on 666 infraction points the kernel sends a mail to debian repo to nuke the package off the planet |
| 16:30.36 | kerio | lol |
| 16:30.57 | kerio | also lol regarding the sr quote |
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| 16:47.36 | ecc3g | [/clear |
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| 16:53.41 | SAiF | what is the practical download speed limit in n900 |
| 16:53.57 | kerio | how blue is the sky? |
| 16:54.55 | SAiF | kerio was that a reply to me? |
| 16:55.02 | kerio | yep |
| 16:55.17 | SAiF | sky is kinda blue.. and now its black here |
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| 16:56.11 | SAiF | I think there is a limit at somewhere around 500kbps? |
| 16:56.25 | SAiF | in practice.. |
| 16:56.32 | kerio | i don't see why that would be |
| 16:57.10 | SAiF | Well, I may try local now..\ |
| 17:08.12 | SAiF | Kerio, Well I got it, 1350kbps right. Is there something wrong now on my device? This time its from a local PC via Wlan, |
| 17:08.24 | SAiF | The other was my downloads speeds.. |
| 17:10.28 | SAiF | actually KB/s |
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| 17:22.22 | freemangordon | qwazix: the front camera is actually VGA, I won;t call that crappy :P |
| 17:22.35 | freemangordon | it is the way it is used that sucks |
| 17:23.13 | freemangordon | both skype and gtalk are not using VGA, but 320x240 (QVGA?) |
| 17:23.15 | LjL-Alps | it seems to have a number of dead pixels for me |
| 17:24.58 | freemangordon | qwazix: nikocam can use front cam, try it someday and play a bit with brigtness, contrast, etc. You'll see it is far from "that bad" :) |
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| 17:29.50 | LjL-Alps | wait what is nikocam now, other name for camera-ui2? |
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| 18:23.46 | qwazix | freemangordon, I admit i haven't used nikocam with the front camera, but i played a bit with mirror and I could barely see myself |
| 18:24.45 | qwazix | VGA is not bad, not even QVGA, it was the brightness that I thought crappy, but maybe that's software too |
| 18:33.08 | sixwheeledbeast | freemangordon: tracker-cfg has enough votes for promotion but no maintainer.... I thought I'd mention this as you pushed it to testing IIRC. http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/tracker-cfg/0.3.2-4/ :) |
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| 18:36.06 | raccoon_ | hey, is it allowed to request for used n900 in here? just got mine stolen... |
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| 18:41.34 | joga | raccoon_ oh no :( |
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| 18:42.13 | joga | I've been looking for some backup or two or three of them too...but should've bought them when they were still around in auctions, not so much anymore |
| 18:42.37 | raccoon_ | same here... i managed to find it on a local web based flea market |
| 18:42.38 | joga | fortunately my gf also has one, maybe she'll get something else eventually ;p |
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| 18:42.53 | raccoon_ | for an awesome price, previous owner thought it was useless and sub-par technology wise |
| 18:43.13 | joga | yeah, I got the second one essentially free |
| 18:44.00 | raccoon_ | not saying i assume to score one like that again though, i'll happily pay $whatever for one as long as the usb port is ok |
| 18:44.18 | joga | hmm...seems like one n950 on auction heh |
| 18:44.28 | joga | 210 euros upwards :P |
| 18:46.24 | raccoon_ | yeah, figures... :-P |
| 18:47.00 | joga | hmm... so there's something called Neo900 ._o |
| 18:47.26 | joga | squees |
| 18:49.02 | raccoon_ | yeah it's the new open source prototype codename |
| 18:49.11 | raccoon_ | it's been discussed in here quite a bit |
| 18:49.17 | raccoon_ | or one of the codenames, i guess |
| 18:50.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: nope, that's evidently frontcam that needs _much_ light to be barely usable at all |
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| 18:54.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | no sw issue |
| 18:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | terribly noisy even with good light |
| 18:54.32 | qwazix | that's what I thought too |
| 18:54.40 | qwazix | fmg suggests otherwise |
| 18:55.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw much the same like on N810 |
| 18:57.11 | qwazix | never even tried the N810 cam |
| 18:57.29 | qwazix | I don't know if my unit's camera even operates |
| 18:57.33 | qwazix | :) |
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| 19:18.11 | Earthwings | DocScrutinizer05: is http://maemo.org/packages/repository/qa/fremantle_extras-testing/ updated automatically? |
| 19:19.52 | Earthwings | DocScrutinizer05: or rephrased: i just promoted marble-maps and voted for marble, but neither change appears there. should i worry about that? |
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| 19:38.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | it can take several hours I guess. |
| 19:40.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | please recheck tomorrow and if nothing happened (or sth bad happened) then ask freemangordon or merlin1991 about it. I'm not experienced in repository management and package interface and autobuilder |
| 19:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it seems the guys yesterday found some flaws/bugs introduced be the mess that came with fremantle-1.3 repo which basically never should have existed at all. |
| 19:43.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon yesterday said he'll go to fix stuff today, but iirc he later on realized that this might not be exactly easy to fix, or at least needs further evaluation and investigation to assure we don't break 80% of users' auto-update when we replace fremantle-1.3 true repository by a symlink to fremantle repository |
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| 19:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | when fremantle-1.3 ever had some sound rationale, then as a symlink to fremantle (or maybe fremantle a symlink to fremantle-1.3) until eventually we move on to fremantle-1.4 |
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| 19:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | the concept probably being: devices update from fremantle-1.3 while packages go from builder to (symlink) fremantle. When fremantle-1.4 gets released, we create a new repository fremantle-1.4, link fremantle symlink to it and copy the "old" stuff from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle. Then upgrade the fremantle-1.4 repo with new packages and particularly a new catalogs-setting that changes users' catalogs list from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle-1. |
| 19:49.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | 4 during the system update. |
| 19:50.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | thos users who DON'T update to fremantle-1.4 can then still install (app) package versions - e.g. during osso-backup resore process - that match their OS, since they would fetch them from fremantle-1.4 repo, not from fremantle-1.4 |
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| 19:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas during migration#1/consolidation (or even earlier than that) somehow the symlink mutated into a real directory aka separate repository, so we now have a fremantle-1.33 and a fremantle repo and both are not in sync and nobody has a clue what gets done where |
| 19:52.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/33/3/ |
| 19:54.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | current concerns raised are: will fremantle repo work with fremantle-1.3 Packages.gz? |
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| 20:08.28 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: no |
| 20:09.41 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: fremantle repo contains many more packages than fremantle-1.3 (so these packages are not listed into fremantle-1.3's Packages.gz) |
| 20:11.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: it's not primarily about the differences in content between the two repos. It's about if a Package.gz built for fremantleA/ repo can work when user uses the symlink fremantleB/ to access the package |
| 20:12.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | the differneces need to get merged I'd guess, so the final merged repo contains all the newest freshest packages of both |
| 20:12.58 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: common packages are inside the same structure |
| 20:13.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: actually that "many more packages in fremantle than in fremantle-1.3" supports my above made assumtion that autobuilder builds into fremantle but devices update from fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:14.56 | xes | if i'm not wrong, latest package in fremantle-1.3 reports well know date of 20121228 |
| 20:15.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about conclusive |
| 20:15.35 | LjL-Alps | hold on a second, is the fact basically everything i have comes from extras-devel and little to none from extras because i have extras enabled as fremantle-1.3? ;( |
| 20:16.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | for extras-devel there should no such thing like fremantle-1.3 or fremantle-1.2 at all |
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| 20:16.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | should be no* |
| 20:17.27 | LjL-Alps | yeah i have fremantle on extras-devel, but i had fremantle-1.3 on extras |
| 20:17.28 | xes | one more thing: fremantle-1.2 == fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:17.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | since extras-devel is considered rolling release |
| 20:17.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's fine, xes |
| 20:19.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need to keep fremantle-1.2 as is. We need to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3. We need to create a symlink from fremantle to fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:19.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | (tha latter mainly for autobuilder) |
| 20:20.43 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: sorry you lost me.. why do we need to preserve fremantle-1.2? |
| 20:25.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, actually we probably don't, since it got corrupted a long time ago when it is identical to fremantle-1.3 as of end of last year |
| 20:26.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | so it's useless for users still running pr1.2 on their devices anyway, and we as well can nuke it all together |
| 20:27.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | but not before we checked for any packages in there that by bad luck are fresher than the corresponding pkg in fremantle |
| 20:30.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's actualy no surprise that we see extremely low load on our uplink after initial burst for a week. 98% of devices check maemo-extras_fremantle-1.3 and that aiui hasn't seen *any* updates or changed Packages.gz since last new year |
| 20:31.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | prepares for complete congestion of network uplink after we fixed that fremantle-1.3 issue |
| 20:32.18 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: i would expose here the sqlite db about fremantle/xx comparison so everyone could give his opinion (it could also be a nice tool to search for packages) |
| 20:32.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | sqlite db? |
| 20:33.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you mean the files on cloud-7? |
| 20:33.10 | xes | yep |
| 20:33.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | go ahead, that's why I uploaded them to this location |
| 20:34.28 | xes | so, this is the db containing the fremantle/fremantle-1.2/fremantle-1.3 comparison until 20130617: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo_repository_lists/pkg.db.bz2 |
| 20:38.25 | xes | bunzip pkg.db.bz2, and for example: sqlite3 pkg.db "select * from fremantle where fremantle.name not in (select fremantle13.name from fremantle13);" Will list the packages present in fremantle but not in fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:39.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: could you create a symlink from fremantletest -> fremantle and then find a few users willing to test the fremantletest catalog/repo in apt and HAM? |
| 20:42.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that works, and we don't find any pkgs in fremantle-1.[23] which are newer than same pkg in fremantle, then I think we are good to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3 and create a symlink fremantle->fremantle-1.3 (and nuke resp move away for now the fremantle1.2 repo) |
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| 20:43.40 | xes | i think that to make a test we don't need fremantletest. It's enough that the betatesters remove every repo containing fremantle-1.2 or fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:44.46 | xes | and they should try to install one of the latest deb just built from autobuilder |
| 20:46.52 | xes | ..at the end, my opinion is that renaming and not linking fremantle-1.2 and fremantle-1.3 would force everyone to use only fremantle (doing so we obtain also a bandwidth usage of 1/3 compared to actual situation and a faster apt-get update into the devices) |
| 20:47.13 | kerio | are those official repos? |
| 20:47.17 | kerio | if not, fuck em |
| 20:47.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: no! we need to make sure that a renaming of the repo doesn't conflict with any "hardcoded" repo names inside Packages.gz or other signature files etc |
| 20:48.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we can't "force" users to do anything like that, since we don't reach them to tell them what to do |
| 20:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | fact is that we have a mixed set of clients: 90+% have fremantle-1.3 for extras repo. Some 10% maybe, have fremantle for extras repo. We can't break stuff for any of them |
| 20:51.09 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: ok. But, in this moment, everyone without /fremantle/ repos can't pick new packages |
| 20:51.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 20:51.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why we need to fix this |
| 20:52.18 | kerio | ln -s fremantle fremantle-1.3 |
| 20:52.59 | xes | sure. Does freemangordon has some thought about all this? |
| 20:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | thus, again: after testing with fremantletest repo, and after checking for no newer packages in fremantle-1.3, we do: mv fremantle1.2 fremantle-1.2-obsolete; rm fremantle-1.3; mv fremantle fremantle-1.3; ln -s fremantle-1.3 fremantle |
| 20:55.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: ( freemangordon ) I don't know |
| 20:55.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | his last concern been "will renaming of a repo break apt resp Packages.gz?" |
| 20:56.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | thus we do a test with fremantletest repo symlinking to fremantle |
| 20:57.28 | xes | talking again about the sqlite db, sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle13;" will count fremantle-1.3 packages, while: sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle;" will count the fremantle packages. Results: fremantle-1.3= 72843 fremantle-1.2=72843 fremantle=83579 |
| 20:59.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about right. Now we just need to check if any of the packages in fremantle12 or fremantle13 is newer than the pkg with same basename in fremantle |
| 21:00.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we could actually do this by conparing fremantle-1.2-obsolete (the ex fremantle-1.3) to fremantle or fremantle-1.3 after we fixed stuff |
| 21:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | would probably be easier since we can do it on server |
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| 21:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | with up-to-date data, even exploiting find or rsync |
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| 21:07.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think an updating rsync from (ex)fremantle-1.3 to fremantle shall do a fine job to make sure we nuke no new packages? |
| 21:09.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have no clue though how this will impact on package interface aka midgard(-db), but since all packages are still available under unchanged pathnames, either fremantle/*/*/packagename or fremantle-13/*/*/packagename, since after the fix fremantle-1.3 is a symlink to fremantle, I don't expext any side effects |
| 21:10.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, step one: test with a fremantletest repo which is a symlink to fremantle |
| 21:11.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | xes: could you please do that? at least create the needed symlinks so fremantletest is available on repository.m.o, similar to our real repos |
| 21:11.41 | xes | DocScrutinizer05: fremantletest is ready |
| 21:11.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow, that was fast ;-D |
| 21:12.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: how about a new repo on your device? |
| 21:12.54 | kerio | i have no wifi :c |
| 21:12.56 | kerio | what do i have to test? |
| 21:14.29 | kerio | missing packages? |
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| 21:18.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | see if you can update and install cleanly from extras fremantletest free nonfree |
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| 21:19.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | simply change extras data from fremantle-1.3 to fremantletest |
| 21:20.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | then same step disable -testing and -devel, and see if HAM behaves and if you can install resp upgrade a package |
| 21:20.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | from extras (via fremantletest) |
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| 21:33.54 | ashley | anyone here got the N950 manual as a .pdf or a working link to one? the two links (FCC.gov one and another one found via a Google search) I've found so far are both defunct :-/ |
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| 22:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | umm |
| 22:10.44 | Macer | hello |
| 22:29.15 | LjL-Alps | err, is there a reasonably handy way of making the rtlsdr tarballs work, or would i have to chase and symlink each lib/ directory to /usr/lib? |
| 22:33.38 | Sc0rpius | very interesting post about the little Lion cell battery |
| 22:33.52 | Sc0rpius | but as long as I remember my N900 has always lost the clock settings even brand new |
| 22:34.29 | xes | LjL-Alps: which is the problem? |
| 22:36.22 | LjL-Alps | xes, i just don't know how to go about this. i've only had an N900 for a few weeks. i extracted everything to /opt (like, /opt/rtlsdr, /opt/gnuradio, etc), now things complain about missing libraries (obviously, i guess), so is the idea that i should "ln -s /opt/rtlsdr/lib /usr/lib/rtlsdr", etc etc for every directory? |
| 22:38.07 | xes | gqrx probably needs to link gnuradio libs into a standard path. All the bin into /opt/rtlsdr/bin/* don't need any link |
| 22:38.26 | LjL-Alps | ah |
| 22:39.12 | jon_y | or fix ld.so.conf or something |
| 22:39.13 | xes | if you want to avoid to specify the full path when running: /opt/rtl-sdr/bin/rtl_fm -f 96600000 -W -s 200000 -r 48000 - | aplay -r 48k -f S16_LE -t raw -c 1 |
| 22:39.15 | LjL-Alps | xes: uhm, /opt/rtlsdr/bin/rtl_fm does however say it can't load librtlsdr.so.0 |
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| 22:41.58 | xes | LjL-Alps: you are right, you need also those links |
| 22:42.38 | jon_y | xes: why not just fix ld.so.conf? |
| 22:43.04 | jon_y | add the search path to it |
| 22:43.10 | LjL-Alps | yeah, i'm going to try ld.so.conf first. but i imagined since my ld.so.conf is virtually empty (just two entries), the "proper" way to do it was another |
| 22:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: what do you think does 'brand new' mean, production time wise |
| 22:43.26 | xes | jon_y: sure |
| 22:44.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: also, some of those critters break even faster than others. It's just that after 12months it seems 99% are dead |
| 22:44.24 | Sc0rpius | good question, I wonder if I can find the production date |
| 22:44.37 | LjL-Alps | ok now rtl_fm gives me a "no supported device found", which sounds good (i don't have the dongle connected). now... here goes nothing! |
| 22:53.59 | nox- | wonders if the poor arm cpu is even fast enough for sdr |
| 22:56.00 | LjL-Alps | hmm, i guess this USB hub isn't really doing a proper job of pretending to be an OTG cable... |
| 22:56.12 | LjL-Alps | since "lsusb" hangs up when in host mode |
| 22:56.40 | xes | swith host mode off/on and try high/full speed |
| 22:56.59 | xes | ..with h-e-n |
| 23:03.03 | LjL-Alps | nope, doesn't seem to work. on "full", lsusb comes up empty, on "high", lsusb freezes until i disable hostmode |
| 23:03.14 | LjL-Alps | but, really, a USB hub is not made for this |
| 23:03.16 | LjL-Alps | i should get a proper OTG cable |
| 23:05.10 | xes | LjL-Alps: this sometimes happens also with a proper OTG cable. Try connecting the key, with h-e-n, swithc on full host mode, boost, enumarate, then try the lsusb |
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| 23:17.41 | LjL-Alps | no luck, lsusb keeps only giving the root if on "full" mode, and locks up if on "high" |
| 23:20.56 | xes | LjL-Alps: are you using h-e-n? |
| 23:21.29 | LjL-Alps | yes xes, i did it as you said, full, boost on, enumerate, lsusb |
| 23:23.56 | xes | probaly your device wants too much current... in my test i saw that the device with the E4000 fails more often to be detected if compared to the one with r820t. I think that the current absorption is really near the limit for the host mode |
| 23:25.36 | xes | you could also try to connect the device after the host mode switch on and boost |
| 23:25.37 | LjL-Alps | i thought that too. i do have an E4000. although i tried using the "booston" script that was linked, and also connecting the USB hub to a charger (but i think the USB system may get confused by that) |
| 23:28.39 | LjL-Alps | xes: still nope, although if i do that, "full" makes lsusb freeze too (like "high"). also, i noticed now that "lsusb" only freezes if i do "enumerate"; if i don't do "enumerate", lsusb just returns empty ("Bus 001 Device 001: 1d6b:0002") |
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| 23:32.12 | xes | while lsusb is hanged, stop boot and host mode, then swith both on again and enumerate a few times... I have just done this steps and lsusb has passed the "hang" reporting the deviced listed |
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| 23:32.29 | xes | Bus 001 Device 013: ID 0bda:2838 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. |
| 23:32.43 | xes | Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 |
| 23:33.34 | xes | ...i'm just repeating the tests with the E4000 |
| 23:34.19 | xes | i mean, the previous steps has been verified with the E4000 |
| 23:35.23 | LjL-Alps | i think it's the hub. it's a piece of junk, i think i remember it not working well with flash drives either (stuff got corrupted). |
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| 23:36.13 | LjL-Alps | wonders... could i possibly use my computer instead of the hub? *tries* |
| 23:36.29 | xes | i can't say that these steps are always easy, but, after 2/3 times the device appears |
| 23:37.16 | xes | LjL-Alps: ahem... |
| 23:37.40 | LjL-Alps | guess not |
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