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| 03:51.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | congrats the new BoD members and thanks all those of electroate who bothered to vote |
| 03:53.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=32 |
| 03:53.16 | *** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 03:53.59 | *** topic/#maemo by DocScrutinizer05 -> Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet | congratulations and welcome to new BoD |
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| 04:34.41 | chainsawbike | needs to make more noise so he is considered "active enough" to vote :( |
| 04:35.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? |
| 04:36.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | when "more noise" means some posts and ideally thanks on TMO then yes |
| 04:36.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | when "more noise" means some wiki edits then yes |
| 04:38.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | when "more noise" means creating a garage account and sending a mail to council to accept the fact that 3 months quarantine have successfully been passed then DEFINITELY yes |
| 04:39.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I'm sure for next election term, in 6 months, you will not have to bother about the mail thing at least |
| 04:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, 113 voters is not bad at all |
| 04:41.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | from a certain PoV |
| 04:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | it IS bad considering we sent out >6000 ballots |
| 04:42.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | poor polling: 2% |
| 04:44.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | considering we have 6000 out of 83000 garage users eligible to vote, that's even more depressing |
| 04:47.15 | chainsawbike | now there is 83001 :P |
| 04:47.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
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| 05:13.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly ponders to set up a Tor Onion router on maemo.org |
| 05:14.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe in company with a freenode server |
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| 07:09.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: congrats |
| 07:09.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: were you involved, or do you at least understand the vote counting process? |
| 07:12.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we have 2 out of 4 vote, and ballots a,d a,d a,d b,a b,d c,d - will the winners be a,b or a,d ? |
| 07:14.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afraid all but #1 votes are completely meaningless |
| 07:14.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | and result of above vote will be a,b |
| 07:15.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is kinda completely flawed and also misleading and counterintuitive |
| 07:16.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ^^^ |
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| 07:20.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | IMHO after election of one candidate that candidate should get eliminated from candidates list and get scrapped from all ballots, and then a new counting gets started with the remaining candidates and all the modified ballots |
| 07:24.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | so after election of 'a' in above example, the list of remaining candidates is b,c,d and the modified ballot batch is -,d -,d -,d b,- b,d c,d. HMM for this to make sense we need to count #1 *and* #2 from each ballot during counting #2 |
| 07:25.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and consequently #1..#N for counting for candidate #N |
| 07:27.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | this "single transferable vote" system is completely inappropriate in my book - if I even understood how it works |
| 07:28.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly our voting web interface is completely inappropriate for single transferable vote system |
| 07:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | when *always* only first vote counts, then the voting interface MUST NOT allow multiple votes on a single ballot |
| 07:30.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | since this is almost cheating on electorate |
| 07:31.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | if e.g. *I* was aware of what I seem to know _now_, I most likely had voted different in all past votes |
| 07:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we have 3(!) out of 4 vote, and ballots a,d a,d a,d b,a b,d c,d - will the winners be a,b,c or a,d,b ? |
| 07:38.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: you may copy this ^^^ to next MWKN |
| 07:45.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm suggesting to discuss a possible change in election counting algo and eventual referendum to implement a more intuitive such algo |
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| 07:49.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | HAH |
| 07:51.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we have 3 out of 4 vote, and ballots a,d a,d a,d a,c a,d a,d - how will that single transferable vote counting look like? |
| 07:51.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how if in same example we have a 2 out of 4? |
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| 08:12.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, maybe forget about all that above, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote at least suggests that transfer of surplus votes is >>is transferred to other candidates according to the voter's stated preferences<< |
| 08:13.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yet to find out how exactly that transfer according to voter's preferences happens |
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| 08:25.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry for the noise, I'm short on caffeine ;-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote#Example finally was simple enough so even I was able to grok it. My above concerns are without sound base |
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| 08:31.19 | fw190 | congrats to new BoD ;) |
| 08:31.32 | kerio | so is it finally over? |
| 08:31.44 | fw190 | I saw the voting chart - someone made a mistake and voted for me |
| 08:31.58 | fw190 | kerio: it seems that the struggle is over |
| 08:33.12 | kerio | yay for no more patent lawyers in our BoD! |
| 08:33.13 | kerio | ^_^ |
| 08:34.35 | fw190 | well I'm somehow afraid that |
| 08:34.46 | fw190 | someone will pop out with a paragraph |
| 08:34.55 | fw190 | that the election is not valid |
| 08:35.02 | fw190 | end of paranoid mode :P |
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| 08:42.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, not likely to happen |
| 08:44.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | there might be arguments that while we have new BoD members elected now, there's nothing stating clearly that old members have to step down now. But no worries, I'm sure the new members know how to handle such case |
| 08:45.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | fw190: cong^Hsorry for you losing the elections :-) |
| 08:46.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | fw190: and damn sute a big thank you for running |
| 08:46.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure* |
| 08:47.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | you faciliated a BoD of 5 |
| 08:49.18 | fw190 | DocScrutinizer05: now as I got one vote I wonder what can I do to help BoD - maybe there will be a simple task which I can do |
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| 08:49.51 | fw190 | I can not belie that one voter |
| 08:50.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm sure the other guys will appreciate your offer and find sth for you |
| 08:50.09 | fw190 | splendid |
| 08:51.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw you for sure got more than one vote |
| 08:52.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that friggin STV algo doesn't consider anything lower than #1 vote until the #1 vote of that ballot got elected or kicked out |
| 08:52.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think we should discuss this STV thing and maybe find sth more intuitive and fair |
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| 08:53.23 | fw190 | one way or the other I think that the future looks more optimistic right now |
| 08:53.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep \o/ |
| 08:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5th ballot has you on #3, 7th on #4, 9th on #5 a.s.o |
| 08:55.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas with STV hardly anything but #1 and #2 counts ever |
| 08:56.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | so even if all voters would place you on #3 of their ballot, you probably wouldn't make it into elected crew |
| 08:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-06-29 09:20:18] <DocScrutinizer05> IMHO after election of one candidate that candidate should get eliminated from candidates list and get scrapped from all ballots, and then a new counting gets started with the remaining candidates and all the modified ballots |
| 08:58.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-06-29 09:24:25] <DocScrutinizer05> so after election of 'a' in above example, the list of remaining candidates is b,c,d and the modified ballot batch is -,d -,d -,d b,- b,d c,d. HMM for this to make sense we need to count #1 *and* #2 from each ballot during counting #2 |
| 08:58.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-06-29 09:25:17] <DocScrutinizer05> and consequently #1..#N for counting for candidate #N |
| 09:00.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | you have to admit at very least that algo was more understandable than that friggin STV |
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| 09:01.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | you could even simplify that: count all votes from #1 to #5 (so 5 votes per ballot), then pick the 5 candidates with highest number of votes |
| 09:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ultrasimple, ultraclean, and IMHO more fair |
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| 09:07.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui in this election only the #2 votes of those who voted for woody, andrew, or ryan are considered at all. all the other voters' ballots count only for their #1 vote |
| 09:08.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | since hardly anybody placed you on #1 or #2 even, you dropped completely out of the picture |
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| 09:13.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | could *anybody* explain THAT http://maemo.org/vote/blt.php?election_id=32 gibberish to me, please? |
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| 09:16.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | incredibly obfuscated crap |
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| 09:20.42 | fw190 | Doc I just steeped out so we could have 4 and vote so I'm not interested in the number of votes ;) |
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| 09:21.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, seems first col (A) is bogus, cols 2/B to 7/G contain the candidates one ballot per row, and last col is always 0 for whatever termination reasons |
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| 09:24.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the voting machine states >>Ballot file contains 6 candidates and 113 ballots.<< but I clearly see 114 ballots in the CSV download |
| 09:25.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | one-off origon-0 error? |
| 09:25.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | origin even |
| 09:27.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | fw190: but I'm interested in how that crap actually works, and I have to say I'm not amused about the way it obviously does |
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| 09:31.11 | fw190 | DocScrutinizer05: well you have a point but this is the smallest of our small problems ;) |
| 09:33.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | fw190: I kinda gave up on assigning magnitueds to problems |
| 09:34.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have just 3 classes of problems here: showstoppers, big big problems, other stuff |
| 09:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | clearly this one is of category "other stuff" |
| 09:35.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's in huge company there |
| 09:35.22 | Mr_Stupid | merlin1991: can you please bless https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2013-June/118298.html for me? |
| 09:36.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ is one of category "big big problems" :-/ |
| 09:37.11 | Mr_Stupid | Oorgle? |
| 09:37.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | uh? |
| 09:38.04 | Mr_Stupid | What's the big big problem? |
| 09:38.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | the fux0red autobuilder/repo-mgmt |
| 09:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | or particularly >>ERROR running /etc/buildme.d/check_build: Unknown user.(root)<< I guess |
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| 09:42.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and in first derivative the fact that merlin1991 doesn't report in ##maemo-admin about his actions he's doing regarding and related to this |
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| 09:44.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I have no clue what's currently the recommended procedure to "bless", not what's the root problem, nor what's the suggested solution and what is actually about to be done. Nor has any other of the maintainers and sysops |
| 09:45.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | except merlin1991 |
| 09:45.54 | Mr_Stupid | Yeah, i'll just wait for merlin1991 to show up. He made it work yesterday |
| 09:46.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | all that sums up for this one to make it to category "big big problem" |
| 09:46.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | lately I had more showstoppers though |
| 09:47.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | like vcs VM apache SSL creating >100MB logs per day, which filled our storage and brought everything to a grinding halt |
| 09:50.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | or the garage-sync job which suddenly stopped working due to user admin magically got fsckdup |
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| 12:09.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | looking at http://monitor.maemo.org/ganglia/?r=week&cs=&ce=&c=maemo&h=www&tab=m&vn=&mc=2&z=medium&metric_group=ALLGROUPS with goose pimples |
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| 12:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_Single_Transferable_Votes#Gregory and ponders instant nuking of the STV mess, asking for a referendum to replace STV by simple majority voting, each electorate member has N votes for a body of N (in last election: 5 [or less]), and then all votes (max 5 per ballot) are counted with no weighting and the 5 candidates with most votes make it |
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| 12:52.06 | GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer05, I read it at the time, but didn't really understand it particularly well. |
| 12:52.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a nightmare |
| 12:52.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | bottom line from my side 2 lines up ^^^ |
| 12:53.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | even wikipedia and STV website mention known problems with STV |
| 12:54.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly for low numbers of ballots and/or very low or very high number of candidates |
| 12:55.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and calculation of double-transferred votes is a nightmare of its ofn category |
| 12:55.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | own* |
| 12:56.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the whole concept seems to discriminate those who placed "losers" on #1 of their ballots |
| 12:57.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | while voting with the mainstream gets rewarded by offering you "a second vote" |
| 12:58.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I completely fail to see why we'd need that overly complicated and obfuscated algo for vote counting |
| 13:00.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: aah, and congratulations! :-) |
| 13:01.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think these been some of the best elections we ever had, when looking at the results |
| 13:02.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm positively surprised how many votes jaffa gathered |
| 13:03.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | already pondered if that's worth a master thesis, what determines the number of votes a certain person can achieve |
| 13:04.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, jaffa for sure earns it, but I'm surprised how many community members actually knew that, given the relatively sparese activity of jaffa during last several months |
| 13:05.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I wonder if majority of electorate are old school members who still remember "the good times", or if it just been our appropriately euphoric welcome to jaffa that pushed him |
| 13:06.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | or was it his introduction? |
| 13:12.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: please consider joining #maemo-meeting in 2:45h |
| 13:12.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: and maybe you know how to contact jaffa, to let him know about that meeting as well |
| 13:13.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | council wants to welcome new BoD :-) |
| 13:14.44 | *** join/#maemo brzys (~brzys@77-92-38-176.cable-modem.tkk.net.pl) |
| 13:14.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ^^^^ |
| 13:15.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: ^^^^ |
| 13:15.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 13:17.25 | GeneralAntilles | 0617 for him. |
| 13:17.40 | GeneralAntilles | I'll ping him on Twitter, though. |
| 13:17.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh? AM? |
| 13:17.59 | GeneralAntilles | Yeah, PDT. |
| 13:18.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn |
| 13:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, maybe another two hours help ;-) |
| 13:18.42 | GeneralAntilles | 1600 UTC meeting time? |
| 13:18.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 13:19.05 | GeneralAntilles | OK |
| 13:19.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:19.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | 30min late probably no problem either |
| 13:20.19 | *** join/#maemo sardini (~halXI@2a01:e35:1386:4120:a0d4:d717:fd4d:1127) |
| 13:20.59 | GeneralAntilles | I was pulling for RRV when the debates were going on. |
| 13:22.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't even feel like checking what's RRV in wikipedia now. Another 60min of reading to understand that I probably didn't want to learn about it |
| 13:23.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's wrong with "N votes per electorate member for a body of N, then pick the 5 guys with the most votes"? |
| 13:24.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | we *might* augment that for "each vote not assigned is a vote for a virtual candidate <nobody> that can get elected" |
| 13:25.18 | GeneralAntilles | Reweighted Range Voting |
| 13:25.25 | GeneralAntilles | 0-100 for each candidate |
| 13:26.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | might make sense for a body with hierarchy |
| 13:26.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | which we don't have |
| 13:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty much for a "YAY or NAY" black or white vote. either you think some candidate is the right one for a body, or you don't wnat to see him / her in the body |
| 13:29.28 | GeneralAntilles | RRV lets voters describe their full preference. |
| 13:30.11 | *** join/#maemo sunny_s (~sunny_s@business-092-079-020-027.static.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:30.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | with amendment/augment <nobody> you even can vote out candidates resulting in a list of >6 candidates not necessarily giving a council body of 5 but maybe only 3 |
| 13:32.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, seems to me both concepts >> STV |
| 13:33.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that it would've changed any of the last 3 or 4 or 5 elections in any way |
| 13:34.34 | *** join/#maemo freemangordon_ (~freemango@130-204-50-168.2074221835.ddns.cablebg.net) |
| 13:52.31 | *** join/#maemo CutMeOwnThroat (~boo@unaffiliated/iridos) |
| 14:06.28 | *** join/#maemo Superpelican (~Superpeli@D97817A8.cm-3-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl) |
| 14:07.06 | *** join/#maemo eddyb9 (~eddy@unaffiliated/eddyb) |
| 14:07.15 | eddyb9 | why can't I install aptitude? |
| 14:08.26 | eddyb9 | I wanted it to search the names of the non-busybox tools I want |
| 14:08.45 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p57B9E56D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:09.43 | eddyb9 | also, why does HAM have to be so slow? and it needs me to trigger a refresh to even get out of the black screen that simulates loading |
| 14:10.15 | *** join/#maemo npm_ (~npm@cpe-198-72-191-253.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 14:11.41 | *** join/#maemo Drathir (~kamiljk8@s51.linuxpl.com) |
| 14:12.46 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p57B9E56D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:14.27 | GeneralAntilles | damnit |
| 14:14.31 | GeneralAntilles | DCed |
| 14:15.04 | eddyb9 | did I have any weird repos before? |
| 14:15.06 | GeneralAntilles | STV was chosen mostly on the basis of less voter confusion and simpler algorithms compared to RRV |
| 14:15.23 | eddyb9 | there's no aptitude and no *utils* at all |
| 14:15.34 | GeneralAntilles | RRV strikes me as much more intuitive. |
| 14:15.36 | Drathir | hi all, maybe someone know what causing that error when import private gpg key https://gist.github.com/drathir/5891221 isnt a bug in maemo gpg? |
| 14:16.00 | GeneralAntilles | eddyb9, apt-cache search |
| 14:16.13 | eddyb9 | GeneralAntilles: oh wow. thanks |
| 14:18.45 | Shapeshi1ter | I've been having trouble with bad battery life and a hot phone for a while now and was"mt able to figure out what process caused the problems. I have since discovered that I get very good battery life when disabling cellular internet. On wifi it can easily last all day. When enabling cell internet (2.5G only, no 3G), it gets hot very quickly and drains the battry in a matter of hours. I only check mail and use 1 jabber and 1 SIP account. ... |
| 14:18.51 | Shapeshi1ter | ... Any ideas how to diagnose what is wrong with the cell internet? |
| 14:19.20 | ShadowJK | well, disable those 3 one by one |
| 14:19.46 | Sicelo | this SIP account is not 'Skype' perhaps? |
| 14:20.41 | ShadowJK | irc on 2.5g (and 3g) in poor signal (anyhing less than full bars) drains my batt fast too |
| 14:20.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: indeed STV is absolutely counterintuitive and almost cheating on those who vote |
| 14:20.59 | ShadowJK | but in good signal, 2.5g irc lasts two days |
| 14:21.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: HAM has to be so slow to teach you some ZEN ;-D |
| 14:21.58 | eddyb9 | hi |
| 14:22.04 | eddyb9 | what's up, doc? |
| 14:22.06 | *** join/#maemo Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 14:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshi1ter: make sure you get no unsolicited inbound packets |
| 14:22.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | like pinggs |
| 14:23.13 | Drathir | Shapeshi1ter: its normal i think the same to my device... |
| 14:23.19 | Shapeshi1ter | Sicelo: no, skype is a bad drainer in my experience. I never had problems with the other protocols. |
| 14:23.36 | GeneralAntilles | We could probably start another discussion about changing if we got buy-in from a maintainer to deal with the voting software. |
| 14:23.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 14:24.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is Woody14619 ;-) |
| 14:24.08 | eddyb9 | wtf, does busybox contain binutils? |
| 14:24.21 | Drathir | btw mail is checked by periods and jabber keeding a session to not be dead... |
| 14:24.59 | GeneralAntilles | Seems like we should figure out how to do binary votes again, too. |
| 14:25.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshi1ter: I recommend tschark |
| 14:25.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | tshark even |
| 14:26.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshi1ter: anyway I blame your carrier for sending inbound traffic. Probably you're not protected by a NAT |
| 14:26.42 | eddyb9 | DocScrutinizer05: what's busybox-symlinks-binutils for? |
| 14:27.04 | Shapeshi1ter | I'll try that. Maybe modest is fucking up. I see connections to 1n100.com even though I'm not online in gtalk... |
| 14:27.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: for messybox' binutils, I guess |
| 14:27.38 | Shapeshi1ter | DocScrutinizer05: could be... I also see traffic from cache05.sunsrise.ch which is my provider... |
| 14:27.47 | Shapeshi1ter | *sunrise |
| 14:28.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | check for inbound unsolicited traffic |
| 14:28.09 | eddyb9 | DocScrutinizer05: but how do binutils fit in there!? |
| 14:28.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: I don't get your question |
| 14:28.38 | eddyb9 | binutils are pretty big |
| 14:28.51 | eddyb9 | how/why did they put them in busybox |
| 14:28.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | except maybe, you're confusing messybox-genuine with messybox-power related stuff |
| 14:29.02 | kerio | by halfassing, it |
| 14:29.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't ask me about messybox |
| 14:29.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not a known fan of it |
| 14:30.00 | Drathir | Shapeshi1ter: transparent proxy maybe from isp? |
| 14:30.10 | eddyb9 | me neither, I just saw that and I was baffled |
| 14:30.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | saw it where? |
| 14:30.33 | eddyb9 | in the search for "utils" |
| 14:30.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, that doesn't mean you got it installed |
| 14:31.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I used gnu-utils for a long time without much trouble, until procps caused conflicts with base busybox |
| 14:32.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I still use all that, but now my installation is fux0red to the degree where no normal cssu-t upgrades possible |
| 14:32.40 | eddyb9 | and apt-cache doesn't tell you if something is installed already, so that's a bit annoying |
| 14:33.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | err yep, dpkg -*(lL?) does |
| 14:33.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | or dpkg -s or sth |
| 14:33.35 | Drathir | eddyb9: that not a pacman ^^ |
| 14:33.37 | Sicelo | eddyb9: it does (somehow) :P |
| 14:33.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yeah actually it does |
| 14:34.08 | Sicelo | apt-cache policy 'package' |
| 14:34.47 | eddyb9 | DocScrutinizer05: I reacted to the binutils thing because it implies that busybox has binutils in it. doesn't matter which *box, it still sounds ridiculous to me |
| 14:34.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# apt-cache policy binutils |
| 14:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | binutils: |
| 14:34.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:35.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# apt-cache policy busybox-symlinks-binutils |
| 14:35.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | busybox-symlinks-binutils: |
| 14:36.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:36.21 | eddyb9 | apt-cache show busybox-symlinks-binutils |
| 14:37.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# apt-cache showpkg busybox-symlinks-binutils |
| 14:37.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | err yes |
| 14:38.15 | eddyb9 | it says it replaced binutils, with symlinks |
| 14:38.19 | eddyb9 | *replaces |
| 14:39.01 | eddyb9 | that implies busybox contains all of binutils in its main binary |
| 14:40.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, you can test that via "busybox <cmd>" |
| 14:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | like "busybox gcc" |
| 14:41.01 | eddyb9 | no objdump, no as |
| 14:41.03 | eddyb9 | hmm... |
| 14:41.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks like a fsckdup pkg to me |
| 14:42.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask Maintainer: Yauheni Kaliuta <yauheni.kaliuta@nokia.com> ;-P |
| 14:44.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | dependencies look non-plausible to me (noob talking here) |
| 14:45.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | might have leaked from sb-x86 tools |
| 14:45.52 | eddyb9 | it has no deps or I didn't look right |
| 14:45.53 | Drathir | ^ looks like no idea about gpg :/ is any chance of official update gpg in maemo? |
| 14:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | right, it seems to have no deps |
| 14:46.38 | eddyb9 | apt-cache search gnu # gives me results with no gnu in them. good thing we have grep |
| 14:47.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | apt-cache search searches whole pkg description incl dependencies or somesuch |
| 14:47.47 | eddyb9 | lol. where's aptitude, anyway? |
| 14:48.05 | eddyb9 | some packages just fell off the face of the earth |
| 14:48.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | apt-cache search .*-gnu |
| 14:48.47 | eddyb9 | that's what I just gave to apt-get install. it works :P |
| 14:48.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | YAY there's a sed-gnu |
| 14:49.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | FU messybox! |
| 14:49.41 | Drathir | missing zsh on maemo :/ |
| 14:49.48 | eddyb9 | I'm contemplating trying this on my N900 http://en.opensuse.org/HCL:BeagleBoard |
| 14:50.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | waves and tries to head out and get some breakfast |
| 14:50.35 | eddyb9 | I'm expecting no acceleration and maybe broken wifi |
| 14:50.46 | eddyb9 | but the SoC is almost the same |
| 14:51.07 | Drathir | DocScrutinizer05: shortly lets kidnap the fridge? :p |
| 14:51.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas the gnomes are on strike, so I have to fill the fridge myself |
| 14:53.52 | eddyb9 | wait... if BeagleBoard (the original) uses the sam GPU, can't we just boot stuff meant for the BeagleBoard? |
| 14:55.25 | Sicelo | lol. no |
| 14:56.15 | eddyb9 | what is actually different? |
| 14:56.36 | eddyb9 | the power management, the wifi chip, the broadband stuff |
| 15:00.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | power is twl4030 |
| 15:00.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | display is rather proprietary |
| 15:01.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course all the other peripherals |
| 15:01.54 | eddyb9 | is the fb/pvr part different from the SoC (3530) used in BeagleBoard? |
| 15:02.41 | eddyb9 | from what I know, the internals of 3430 and 3530 are almost identical |
| 15:02.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not |
| 15:03.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui they are completely identical |
| 15:03.18 | eddyb9 | is there anything external related to the display that's specific to N900? |
| 15:03.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | except maybe the HS stuff (which luckily isn't used on N900) |
| 15:03.41 | eddyb9 | high-speed USB? |
| 15:03.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, the display controller is specific |
| 15:04.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | High Security |
| 15:04.18 | eddyb9 | oh. that could've been bad |
| 15:04.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask freemangordon_ for details regarding all that |
| 15:05.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | he made kernel 3.x.x run on n900 iirc |
| 15:05.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | for sure he knows a bit about HS |
| 15:05.30 | eddyb9 | so the display controller, power management and USB PHY or whatever are external |
| 15:05.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | power is standard twl4030 chip |
| 15:06.04 | eddyb9 | does it do PHY, also? |
| 15:06.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | TPS65950 |
| 15:06.21 | eddyb9 | I once read about all that stuff |
| 15:06.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | not on N900 |
| 15:06.32 | eddyb9 | I remember about a multi-purpose chip |
| 15:06.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's 65950 aka twl4030 |
| 15:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | companion chip |
| 15:07.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | 65951 on N9 |
| 15:07.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | PHY on N900 is 1770 |
| 15:08.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | PHY on first silicon rev of 65950 been flawed |
| 15:08.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | or sth like that |
| 15:08.52 | eddyb9 | is it just me, or the specs I've seen on wikipedia for N9 aren't that much better than N900? |
| 15:09.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just you |
| 15:09.22 | eddyb9 | then just the GPU? |
| 15:09.49 | eddyb9 | ooh, so Nokia worked around it instead of waiting for a new revision? ok, that explains that |
| 15:10.42 | eddyb9 | well, I'll try it if I can. if it doesn't boot, it's fine. I think I'll need uboot or bootmenu for it, are they both generic enough? |
| 15:10.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | twl4030 1. rev wasn't able to handle d+/- short detection for unattended fastcharging, or sth |
| 15:11.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they got 1770 which reliably detects D+/- short |
| 15:11.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a 1740 with inverted D-/- (aka OTG?) signal |
| 15:12.00 | eddyb9 | interesting |
| 15:12.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | have a look at the schematics! ;-) |
| 15:12.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~schematics |
| 15:12.32 | infobot | i guess schematics is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic |
| 15:13.13 | eddyb9 | I think I was looking for them at some point and couldn't find the interesting parts |
| 15:13.34 | eddyb9 | thanks for all the fish... err I mean info :P |
| 15:13.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | the only interesting parts missing atre parts labels ;-P |
| 15:14.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and JTAG and UART3 |
| 15:14.44 | eddyb9 | the pins on the back? |
| 15:14.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | yup |
| 15:15.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | >50% of thise still unclear |
| 15:15.22 | eddyb9 | btw, at some point I realized I could just connect the battery with my breadboard wires |
| 15:15.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly F-bus, JTAG, for sure UART3... |
| 15:15.37 | eddyb9 | I'm not sure I managed to pull that off, though |
| 15:16.07 | eddyb9 | I only remember I tried :)) |
| 15:16.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | glares at his phoemix flasher "battery" plug |
| 15:16.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | phoenix even |
| 15:16.40 | eddyb9 | I should just buy one big electronics begginers kit or something |
| 15:16.59 | eddyb9 | a pair of crocodiles would've worked fine with the battery, I think |
| 15:17.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | power to battery won't pan out unless you care for proper BSI R or shutdown bme |
| 15:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~hotswap |
| 15:17.49 | infobot | hotswap is probably http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=57734 |
| 15:19.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | BSI R is 75k iirc |
| 15:20.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | (except for mugen and "test battery") |
| 15:20.42 | eddyb9 | I wanted to hook the battery to the pins without it being in place |
| 15:21.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn, I should've been shopping slready, to make it to meeting in 40min |
| 15:21.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: I got you |
| 15:21.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | take care about BSI or device will shut down |
| 15:22.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | either attacj 75kR from BSI to GND or "stop bme" |
| 15:22.25 | Mr_Stupid | eddy9 i made a cable to connect the battery out of an old cdrom audio cable |
| 15:22.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | nifty |
| 15:23.03 | *** join/#maemo eMHa (~mh@HSI-KBW-149-172-0-168.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 15:24.55 | eddyb9 | Mr_Stupid: hah, cool |
| 15:25.26 | eddyb9 | DocScrutinizer05: nah I didn't want to do it with the device on |
| 15:25.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | recalls the "battery plugs" they had at openmoko to feed device via lab PSU: made of 20 red and 20 black wires 1mm^2 each and laced to a pigtail |
| 15:26.04 | Mr_Stupid | yeah :) |
| 15:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ESR of "battery" <50mR mandatory |
| 15:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least for lap testing purposes |
| 15:27.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | lab* |
| 15:27.16 | Mr_Stupid | what's 50mR? |
| 15:27.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | 0.05R |
| 15:27.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka Ohm |
| 15:27.43 | Mr_Stupid | ahhhh, i see |
| 15:28.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | max allowed ripple on VDD for modem rather low, while modem eats spikes of >>2A |
| 15:29.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | GSM TX can't meed regulatory specs when ripple too high |
| 15:29.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | meet, damn |
| 15:30.05 | Mr_Stupid | Modem get's destroyed or just can't TX? |
| 15:30.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | TX looks like dogshit |
| 15:30.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | will still work but carriers are unhappy |
| 15:31.21 | Mr_Stupid | Carriers won't recognize, because they are just banks now |
| 15:31.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | TX quality has to meet certain standards to get approval for device |
| 15:31.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway |
| 15:31.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | ..... |
| 15:32.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I might be late to meeting, sorry |
| 15:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | will try to join via N900 |
| 15:37.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh useless |
| 15:37.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'll leave meeting after max 45min |
| 15:38.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I dunno how to stand that meeting without milk for my coffee |
| 15:38.33 | Mr_Stupid | Kein Wirkungstrinker? |
| 15:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: you might find some usefull stuff on |
| 15:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools |
| 15:38.54 | infobot | from memory, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
| 15:40.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | Mr_Stupid: yep indeed I am, but effect is calories as much as caffeine |
| 15:40.29 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-179-21.as13285.net) |
| 15:40.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | and black coffe (or no coffe) makes me grumpy |
| 15:41.35 | Mr_Stupid | I want to go shopping, too. But it's raining all the time. |
| 15:41.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | Mr_Stupid: you could come by and bring me some milk ;-D |
| 15:41.59 | Mr_Stupid | I don't have milk ;) |
| 15:42.37 | Mr_Stupid | But i have got alot of formic acid |
| 15:43.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
| 15:43.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks out the window |
| 15:43.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | UGH, indeed started raining again |
| 15:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~weather eddn |
| 15:44.18 | Mr_Stupid | I want to make conductive silver ink and i need formic acid for that. I wanted to order 250 ml but now i have 25l. |
| 15:45.59 | Mr_Stupid | Hmmm i could rly bring you some milk, i'm in Fürth :) |
| 15:47.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | takes too long to come here, meeting starts in 15min |
| 15:48.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | heats up some Ravioli, prepares a tea |
| 15:48.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 15:49.04 | Mr_Stupid | Tea without milk is ok for you? |
| 15:49.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | better than coffee w/o milk |
| 15:55.14 | *** join/#maemo AndrewX192 (~andrew@unaffiliated/andrewx192) |
| 15:58.39 | GeneralAntilles | considers getting the jump on forcing somebody else to be chair. |
| 15:59.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | HAHAHA already?! |
| 16:01.53 | *** join/#maemo Win7Mac (Win7Mac@e177203164.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:03.30 | GeneralAntilles | 1-2-3 |
| 16:03.34 | GeneralAntilles | NOT IT! |
| 16:06.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 16:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | play that game on #maemo-meeting ? |
| 16:14.56 | CutMeOwnThroat | didn't know you could substitute formic acid for milk |
| 16:15.48 | *** join/#maemo Mr_Stupid (~marshall_@nrbg-4dbfd2a1.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 16:26.12 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p57B9E56D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:26.16 | chem|st | pong |
| 16:27.51 | *** join/#maemo mkaindl (~test83487@ama-dablam.markus-kaindl.de) |
| 16:29.20 | *** join/#maemo Mike11 (~Mike@5.0.160.218) |
| 16:29.34 | mkaindl | hello, does anyone here have the current maemo-flasher-3.5 for linux (tar.gz) laying around? the downloadlink on teblets-dev.nokia.com is not working :( |
| 16:32.54 | Mike11 | mkaindl: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php working here |
| 16:33.26 | Mike11 | if u get Content Corrupted Error on firefox, use another browser |
| 16:33.33 | mkaindl | the .tar.gz one? |
| 16:33.57 | Mike11 | yes, just downloaded it |
| 16:34.18 | Mike11 | what error do u get?? |
| 16:35.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | mkaindl: it should be working |
| 16:35.20 | mkaindl | i get the corruptet content with firefox |
| 16:35.51 | mkaindl | and if i download it with wget and try to untar it, gzip complains about it not beeing a gzip-file |
| 16:36.14 | mkaindl | file says, ists assembler source text |
| 16:36.17 | Mike11 | I'm on windows, used internet explorer and worked fine |
| 16:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're aware you can't directly go to the link? |
| 16:36.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need to nod off the eula |
| 16:36.52 | Mike11 | not sure about what causes this Content Corrupted error |
| 16:37.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, flasher-3.5.tgz also available on maemo.cloud-7.de |
| 16:37.12 | Mike11 | it downloaded fine from internet explorer and can be unzpped |
| 16:38.36 | mkaindl | yes, i did nod of the eula in ff, in wget not really possible ;) |
| 16:39.04 | mkaindl | and it uses some scripting stuff, so its not possible to use links or so either |
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| 16:45.19 | Drathir | mkaindl: downkoad manager any using? |
| 16:47.09 | mkaindl | nope |
| 16:47.36 | mkaindl | but i got the file now, passing the cookie to wget, then it worked ;) |
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| 17:12.32 | GeneralAntilles | Former Nokian in the store with his family |
| 17:12.48 | GeneralAntilles | Overwhelmingly negative about them. |
| 17:12.56 | GeneralAntilles | Even I was impressed by the negativity. |
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| 17:26.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:27.41 | Win7Mac | GA, you work in a phone store? |
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| 17:28.27 | GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, book store |
| 17:28.37 | GeneralAntilles | Overheard a Finnish family |
| 17:28.46 | GeneralAntilles | so I asked them if that was Finnish |
| 17:29.30 | GeneralAntilles | The mother was surprised that I recognized it and I said I had worked with Nokia on a few occasions. |
| 17:30.25 | Win7Mac | ah, ok |
| 17:31.06 | Mr_Stupid | merlin1991: Please have a look at: https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2013-June/118300.html |
| 17:31.29 | Mr_Stupid | merlin1991: And i want to become a maintainer of: http://maemo.org/packages/view/dropn900/ |
| 17:39.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't there a button, ask to become maintainer" owtte? |
| 17:39.35 | Mr_Stupid | yes, i pressed this button |
| 17:40.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | when? |
| 17:40.31 | Mr_Stupid | 2 h ago |
| 17:40.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 17:41.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're aware the we first need to try and contact the original maintainer? |
| 17:41.41 | Mr_Stupid | no i wasn't aware, i contacted him 1.5 months ago when i fixed dropn900 |
| 17:41.47 | Mr_Stupid | but he didn't answer to me |
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| 19:10.55 | Drathir | in my invastigation what i checked maemo try to edit a private key and write it wit new date... |
| 19:12.36 | Drathir | date when edited... but strange still dont know why try to eidt imported private key :/ |
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| 19:18.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I scrolled back in #maemo-ssu til 26th and didn't find any mkaindl |
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| 19:18.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | please discuss *-thumb related stuff there |
| 19:19.37 | mkaindl | DocScrutinizer05: it was "mk" there, i was using the webclient ;) |
| 19:19.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | unsolicited queries are generally not appreciated that much |
| 19:20.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh I see |
| 19:20.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry |
| 19:20.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, afk |
| 19:21.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | (read: anyway ay-ef-kay) |
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| 21:18.03 | GI_Jack | it really is too bad that golden delicious refuses to port their GTA04 to the n900 case |
| 21:18.25 | GI_Jack | (and with that, I guess it should have to use an n900-like battery) |
| 21:18.41 | GI_Jack | because I got a new n900 case sitting in my garage with a fresh layer of paint on it |
| 21:33.42 | Apic | Good Night to You all. |
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| 23:00.56 | Drathir | gpg is broke ar mcabber is broken in worst case booth :/ |
| 23:01.10 | Drathir | broken or* |
| 23:02.03 | Drathir | on chroot alarm works both of them :/ |
| 23:03.08 | Win7Mac | me/ says good night all, see you tomorrow o/ |
| 23:06.14 | Luke-Jr | The best thing about UDP jokes is that you don't have to care if nobody gets them. |
| 23:06.25 | Sc0rpius | :D |
| 23:06.43 | Sc0rpius | that was funny actually though I felt a little nerd |
| 23:12.44 | GI_Jack | lol |
| 23:12.45 | GI_Jack | good one |
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