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| 01:31.37 | bjv | Anyone else checking out Ubuntu Touch? |
| 01:40.25 | bjv | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1354713 decided to check it out yesterday |
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| 01:45.39 | bjv | lesson #1) Android drivers seems to be compiled in, could not rmmod wlan module |
| 01:48.02 | bjv | *i disable wifi/etc. daily while driving around a military post, had to settle for ifconfig wlan0 down |
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| 02:32.09 | GI_Jack | no |
| 02:32.14 | GI_Jack | uggbuntu |
| 02:32.39 | GI_Jack | ubuntu is going to be a semi-open platform like android |
| 02:32.54 | GI_Jack | I'd give it a second look if it had some sort of vertical intergration with ubuntu desktop |
| 02:33.04 | bjv | only limiting factor appears to be qt5 |
| 02:33.11 | GI_Jack | why QT5? |
| 02:33.48 | bjv | all GUI in ubuntu touch is qt5, there is no support for X11 or GTK at all yet |
| 02:33.51 | GI_Jack | it is going to be MIR, and other non-standard bits it has, and whatever compromises they have to make |
| 02:34.07 | GI_Jack | XMir |
| 02:34.24 | bjv | no mir yet on this 24June build |
| 02:34.37 | GI_Jack | they did announce XMir, that will run x11 apps and legacy desktops |
| 02:34.53 | GI_Jack | which is going to be worthless, when modern systems start targeting wayland, and X11 becomes legacy |
| 02:34.55 | bjv | oh did they? |
| 02:35.01 | GI_Jack | yes |
| 02:35.05 | GI_Jack | do you even /. |
| 02:35.30 | bjv | i was expecting them to use mir as an inbetween step to wayland |
| 02:35.35 | GI_Jack | I wonder if ubuntu touch is even going to include glibc or something compatable |
| 02:35.53 | GI_Jack | bjv, no, just like upstart wasn't an inbetween to systemd |
| 02:35.59 | GI_Jack | mabey redhat should make a phone |
| 02:36.23 | GI_Jack | that I'd be intrested in, redhat enterprise cell phone |
| 02:36.41 | bjv | this ubuntu touch is running.. libc6:armhf 2.17-0ubuntu5 |
| 02:36.50 | GI_Jack | no shit |
| 02:36.50 | bjv | GNU C |
| 02:36.52 | GI_Jack | xterm? |
| 02:36.55 | bjv | yeah |
| 02:37.02 | GI_Jack | it shouldn't be too hard to port gtk then |
| 02:37.13 | bjv | ubuntu-terminal-app 0.5bzr15saucy0 |
| 02:37.17 | bjv | ehh |
| 02:37.25 | bjv | i'm more likely to write a qt5 frontend |
| 02:37.28 | bjv | for anything i want GUI |
| 02:37.32 | GI_Jack | of course |
| 02:37.37 | bjv | because it's all hinged on Mir |
| 02:37.39 | GI_Jack | the rest of the world is leaning towards Qt in general |
| 02:37.42 | bjv | or waiting for xMir |
| 02:37.48 | GI_Jack | but I am talking about getting existing GTK+ apps to work |
| 02:37.52 | bjv | yeah |
| 02:38.03 | GI_Jack | the big draw of the n900 is it was debian compatible |
| 02:38.07 | GI_Jack | it had GTK+ AND Qt |
| 02:38.19 | GI_Jack | I want it to be able to pull dependencies like a regular linux distro |
| 02:38.41 | GI_Jack | and contain all the tool kits and interpreters that it needs to pull to make the full linux experiance happen |
| 02:38.46 | GI_Jack | python? does it have a python port? |
| 02:38.51 | GI_Jack | especially pyqt |
| 02:38.55 | bjv | i just installed python27 |
| 02:39.00 | GI_Jack | python2 and 3 |
| 02:39.03 | GI_Jack | and qt bindings |
| 02:39.11 | bjv | yeah, it's full armhf ubuntu |
| 02:39.19 | bjv | qt5, yeah |
| 02:39.37 | GI_Jack | what about qt4 and 3, like GTK, its going to be needed to run legacy apps |
| 02:40.05 | GI_Jack | and perl |
| 02:40.34 | bjv | i see... python-qt4* stuff is in their stock repo |
| 02:40.42 | GI_Jack | nice |
| 02:40.43 | bjv | pthon and python3 |
| 02:40.52 | GI_Jack | mabey I should give ubuntu some credit |
| 02:40.55 | GI_Jack | instead of being so harsh |
| 02:41.23 | bjv | not certain if all qt4 functionality is supported by qt5? |
| 02:41.37 | bjv | there's python-qt4-gl though |
| 02:41.45 | GI_Jack | bjv, of course, but not every app is written for Qt5 |
| 02:41.49 | bjv | true |
| 02:41.58 | GI_Jack | same with GTK, I am sure all functionality is repeated in Qt5, and Qt5 is AWESOME |
| 02:42.17 | bjv | it does seem.. comprehensive |
| 02:42.30 | bjv | we'll see how much it hurts to not have X11/gtk though |
| 02:42.33 | GI_Jack | but the point of linux cell phone is that shit written for general purpose linux computing runs |
| 02:42.54 | GI_Jack | bjv, it doesn't need X11, it needs XMir to run X11 apps |
| 02:43.03 | bjv | or wayland |
| 02:43.11 | GI_Jack | eventually, but most apps are X11 |
| 02:43.37 | GI_Jack | the point of a linux cell phone is that it runs general purpose linux apps |
| 02:43.49 | GI_Jack | if I justed wanted the linux kernel, and some random other shit, I'd be on android |
| 02:44.02 | GI_Jack | but not only do I want linux,I want GNU as well |
| 02:44.13 | GI_Jack | I want its enitrity avialble |
| 02:44.21 | GI_Jack | what about a terminal emulator? |
| 02:44.40 | bjv | the 24June nightly came with a stock terminal emulator |
| 02:45.05 | bjv | ubuntu-terminal-app 0.5bzr15saucy0 |
| 02:46.00 | bjv | the small screen, and weak N900, plus the overhead of administering your .img filesystem makes debian chroot ... not as useful as it could be |
| 02:46.16 | bjv | basically, ive had access to full linux desktop on a phone now for years |
| 02:46.26 | bjv | but, it's not as smooth and nice as it could be |
| 02:46.54 | GI_Jack | no, I don't want a "full linux desktop", I too own an n900 |
| 02:47.03 | GI_Jack | I want something like hildon |
| 02:47.10 | bjv | i just mean software selection |
| 02:47.33 | GI_Jack | I want the same type of software |
| 02:47.40 | GI_Jack | not just the infotaintment platform |
| 02:47.52 | bjv | right, |
| 02:48.14 | bjv | now, Samsung sounds like they are turning their Tizen into a lock-in infotainment |
| 02:48.35 | bjv | removing native Enlightenment libs from their SDK v2,etc. |
| 02:48.44 | bjv | weak |
| 02:49.56 | GeneralAntilles | There'a so much regulatory overhead and legal exposure in developing and selling a communication device. |
| 02:50.45 | bjv | GeneralAntilles: agreed. |
| 02:51.38 | GeneralAntilles | Government interference in the market tends to lead to massive firms and limited choice |
| 02:52.05 | bjv | GeneralAntilles: the unity8 UI reminds me enough of Harmattan/Swipe, that it makes me wonder just how much Canonical is risking litigation |
| 02:52.17 | bjv | make a swipe based UI, great. |
| 02:52.31 | GeneralAntilles | Patents are a mess |
| 02:52.50 | GeneralAntilles | The various government certifications are a mess |
| 02:53.08 | bjv | put a Swipe like UI "on a phone" ... *bam* patent infringement circus |
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| 04:42.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | tbh that's just because all the manufacturers are silly and think they can patent their GUI, rather than offer a truly open GUI to user |
| 04:44.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd build a GUI that simply can recognize arbitrary gestures and user can assign a certain makro to each gesture, let's call that customization or user defined skin. Add to that a few desktops that can take arbitrary widgets and you're done. "SWIPE? Hell no! that's my customization of MyDesktop!" |
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| 05:34.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | allow 1, 2, and 3-dimensional graphs with arbitrary sensor input incl first and 2nd derivative against the other dimensions, for each coordinate of such graphs. Then define areas that such graphs have to stay inside (obviously for 0 order derivative of time such gesture detection is a bit meaningless, since it would allow a gesture only at one certain moment, while 2st order allows to define gestures of a certain range of duration) |
| 05:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, that stuff in brackets been BS for second half, the 1st order derivative of time is a constant |
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| 05:36.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | we actually need to allow absolute and relative for all dimensions I guess |
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| 07:22.47 | Shapeshifter | Is there any way of making the n900 autoconnect to WPA enterprise wlans (other than pthimon/autoconnect from github which has to be compiled and requires qt-mobility)? |
| 07:24.13 | Shapeshifter | And how can I scan for available networks on the cli as well as connect to networks from the cli? |
| 07:24.31 | Shapeshifter | Then I could just script a cron job |
| 07:25.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
| 07:25.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | sth around ICD2 |
| 07:27.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have a WLAN-off/on queenbeecon, and I know somewhere in wiki next to usb connectivity or tethering/BT-PAN there's sth mentioned regarding priority of connections used |
| 07:28.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | iwconfig scan; to start with? |
| 07:31.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | check phonecontrol, it also might have sth |
| 07:32.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and finally, the usual advice: dbus-monitor both buses and then select disconnect from current network and pick a new network in the GUI |
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| 08:27.12 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: thanks, I'll check out those things. |
| 08:27.20 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: what's your opinion on smart reflex? |
| 08:35.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: I'm very reluctant to use it, since I still don't think it is a huge achievement regarding power conservation, and the saying is that SR is instable on hw level |
| 08:36.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | my top priority is a rock solid stable phone |
| 08:37.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm charging once per day anyway, while - when I go to tablet mode (GSM disabled) - my device has a standby time of ~5 days, *without* SR |
| 08:37.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | so why should I use it? I wouldn't even notice the difference |
| 08:41.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | this however is applicable for my very own usage pattern that doesn't include much of mp3 listening, gameplay, or any other non-internet-related usage. So each time my CPU awakes, it does so when the modem already burned a magnitudes higher quantum of energy for transmitting/acknowledging data |
| 08:42.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | YMMV |
| 08:43.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | some tests I recently read seem to suggest that power savings by SR&certain undervolting/overclocking profiles during mp3 playback might be up to 16% |
| 08:44.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | for me this wouldn't be a convincing argument even when I'd listen to mp3 all day long |
| 08:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | again YMMV |
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| 08:46.39 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: Do you think it's true that an old SIM card (bad connectors) could impact battery life? |
| 08:47.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | in theory yes, but that's a really bizarre scenario |
| 08:48.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | kinda like "it's possible to build a AM radio with a cooking pot and a spoon" |
| 08:51.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | let me put it this way: as long as you don't notice other problems (like missing connectivity or "no SIM detected"), it's hard to come up with a story how the SIM and bad contacts there would have any impact on your battery standby time |
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| 09:00.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: sorry, iwlist scan |
| 09:00.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | not iwconfig |
| 09:01.17 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: well I do get "no sim detected" from time to time but I'd suspect the chips coming of the pcb or something... |
| 09:01.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually >> iwlist wlan0 scan << is the better |
| 09:01.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: check *#06# as soon as you encounter 2no sim detected" |
| 09:02.36 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: I'll remember that. I don't have iwlist on my n900... |
| 09:02.39 | Shapeshifter | or so it seems |
| 09:02.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | this shall display you IMEI if the modem still working |
| 09:03.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: iwlist might be from a supplementary pkg which you need to install |
| 09:06.34 | Shapeshifter | By the way I have another annoying problem. The notes application doesn't auto-save and doesn't load the previous notes file after a reboot. I.e. I have to manually save the notes or else they are lost when the phone shuts down and I also have to manually load the notes file, since Notes opens with an empty notes file. |
| 09:07.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
| 09:08.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | tbh I despise notes app, so I dunno how it works nowadays and if that changed "officially" |
| 09:09.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | or if there's a catch how you shall handle storing and opening of texts |
| 09:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't this the shit that stores the textx in tracker? |
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| 09:10.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that's true, than any changes you done to tracker config might have caused that issue |
| 09:10.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | then* |
| 09:12.24 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: mh, no I think it stores it in a text file in .documents |
| 09:12.36 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: what do you use for quick notes? |
| 09:12.52 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: I sometimes simply use vim but I haven't configured it for autosaving. I could do that. simple enough |
| 09:14.02 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: it's quite odd I can't find iwlist/iwconfig. They're not installed. There's an iw package in the repos but it's a different tool and can't scan (operation not supported -95). |
| 09:15.24 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: And I can't find a matching package via dpkg -S |
| 09:15.45 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: could you please run whereis iwconfig so I can at least know the right path where it's supposed to be? |
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| 09:18.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | all iw* tools in /sbin/ |
| 09:18.09 | Shapeshifter | >.> dpkg -S iwconfig only shows me a bunch of man pages in the man-db-pages package. |
| 09:18.22 | Shapeshifter | strange. |
| 09:18.40 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: does dpkg -S /sbin/iwconfig give you any output? |
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| 09:19.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | wireless-tools: /sbin/iwconfig |
| 09:20.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | wireless-tools: |
| 09:20.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:20.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:21.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | CAN ANYBODY PLEASE FIX apt-cache?!? So it shows whole URL and not only base URL |
| 09:22.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: I bet it's nokia's tools repo |
| 09:24.22 | Shapeshifter | mh... |
| 09:24.48 | Shapeshifter | Isn't that repo offline? |
| 09:26.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Wireless_Tools |
| 09:27.05 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: thanks! |
| 09:27.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/repositories.install |
| 09:28.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Installation |
| 09:29.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | beware, my .install installs THREE repos, you might want to delete two of them in HAM catalogs after you clicked on the .install |
| 09:29.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | see |
| 09:29.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools |
| 09:29.13 | infobot | methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
| 09:31.01 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: Mh. I get "Err https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release" and later "W: GPG error: http//downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED ..." when doing apt-get update. There still must be something wrong with my repos... |
| 09:31.24 | Shapeshifter | I searched the forum and I guess it has something to do with the dns migration away from Nokia but I can't find a solution... |
| 09:31.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, that's the well known fsckng exired nokia signature key |
| 09:32.16 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: so it's a non critical warning? |
| 09:32.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | most easy workaround I heard of: set your system date to 2012-01-01 temporarily |
| 09:32.28 | Shapeshifter | >.> |
| 09:32.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that's a showstopper anyway - I think it's only a warning |
| 09:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | please report about your findings |
| 09:33.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | so next time I have better info to share |
| 09:34.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I *think* "W:" means "noncritical Warning" |
| 09:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | it just lowers trustlevel of that source |
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| 09:36.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you couldn't replace or update packages that been formerly installed to your system from same repo when the key was valid, since then the notorious "third party policy" would forbid replacing the existing package by a lower-trusted version |
| 09:36.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | for fresh installs however it shouldn't matter AIUI |
| 09:38.06 | Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer05: nah I don't mind the warning. In any case, installing wireless-tools from the tools repo worked. thanks |
| 09:38.22 | Lava_Croft | is there actually a mirror for http://repo.pub.meego.com/ |
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| 09:42.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter: thanks for reporting |
| 09:42.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | Lava_Croft: ask on #harmattan, over there the info is more up to date |
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| 09:50.26 | Shapeshifter | whohoo! it's quite easy to connect to WPA2 (even enterprise) from the cli without having to mess with iw* tools by running "dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.icd /com/nokia/icd com.nokia.icd.connect string:"IAP_ID" uint32:0" with an IAP_ID found in gconftool. Nice. |
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| 09:53.19 | Shapeshifter | now if I could monitor wlancond scans using dbus-scripts, that would be brilliant... |
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| 09:56.09 | Shapeshifter | it's also funny that the WPA auth passwords are stored in gconf as plain text ... |
| 09:56.12 | Shapeshifter | great job Nokia |
| 09:56.19 | Shapeshifter | as always |
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| 10:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, how else would you stpore them? |
| 10:05.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need the plaintext password, everything else doesn't work for authenticating against any AP |
| 10:06.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | or are you referring to that insane "concept" to obfuscate the local password store so that hackers still easily can read it out but *user* can't read it anymore without using hackertools? |
| 10:09.05 | divVerent | Shapeshifter: not much secure on iPhone :P |
| 10:09.20 | divVerent | Shapeshifter: iPhone encrypts it with LOTS OF KEYS which are stored in plain on the device itself |
| 10:09.39 | divVerent | the only security there is - and which the N900 maybe should do - is encrypting it with the lock code (indirectly) |
| 10:09.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, something has to be "plain text", if only it's the algo for rot13 ;-P |
| 10:09.54 | divVerent | however, look at your lock code and how easily it is guessed... |
| 10:10.04 | divVerent | most people use just a few digits |
| 10:10.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | since after all eventually some app needs the plaintext password back to use it |
| 10:10.27 | divVerent | you actually can brute force the lock code ON a jailbroken iPhone in a few mins |
| 10:10.39 | divVerent | it only takes so long because the CPU is so slow :P |
| 10:11.00 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: well, encrypting by the lock code is SOMETHING... but really not much |
| 10:11.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, all that is not meant to protect a device against real attacks |
| 10:11.11 | divVerent | it also would mean the freshly booted, not yet unlocked, phone would not connect to a WLAN |
| 10:11.22 | *** join/#maemo triggerhappy (~quassel@58.69.194.133) |
| 10:11.31 | divVerent | one can argue whether that would be good or bad, there is arguments for both sides |
| 10:11.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want a secure device, you'll need cryptfs |
| 10:11.51 | *** join/#maemo brzys (~brzys@77-92-38-176.cable-modem.tkk.net.pl) |
| 10:11.54 | divVerent | sort of |
| 10:11.58 | divVerent | as I said... iPhone does all that |
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| 10:12.02 | divVerent | yet isn't much secure |
| 10:12.08 | divVerent | it all stands or falls with the security of the unlock code |
| 10:12.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even that doesn't help against device getting stolen in uncrypted/unlocked state |
| 10:12.17 | divVerent | and nobody uses a long code there |
| 10:12.51 | divVerent | for most devices: because on screen keyboard sucks, so all people use is few digits or a pattern (similar security) |
| 10:13.02 | divVerent | for N900: because nokia didn't implement keyboard password entry :P |
| 10:13.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | you however can implement a erase-all function that kicks in on too many false unlock tries |
| 10:13.13 | divVerent | not really... |
| 10:13.16 | divVerent | on iOS, yes |
| 10:13.23 | divVerent | this is the main thing what the cryptfs is for |
| 10:13.35 | divVerent | so "wiping" the device is a single sector write to clear the key |
| 10:13.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 10:14.14 | divVerent | but it is true, the N900 really offers no security for passwords at all... not even pseudo security like iOS :P |
| 10:14.24 | divVerent | which is why I did a hack to make modest never store email passwords to disk |
| 10:14.51 | divVerent | the gconf files contain the empty string for the password, and before using modest, I run a shell script remounting this dir as a ramdisk, copying the files in, and asking and inserting the passwords |
| 10:15.18 | divVerent | same hack probably can be applied to WLAN too |
| 10:16.22 | divVerent | the only actually somewhat secure device is the Blackberry |
| 10:16.52 | divVerent | and even that (at least the Bold 9000) I can "crack open" with a little help from the owner... |
| 10:17.06 | divVerent | i.e. trojan some system files (you CAN replace OS files via USB) |
| 10:17.13 | divVerent | then give it back :P |
| 10:17.40 | divVerent | but design wise, Blackberry did it best... lock code is mandatory before opening the whole user file system, mainly |
| 10:17.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | my staement stands: once your device is "unlocked", and "security" by additionally obfuscating any passwords is a false friend that makes matters worse instead of better |
| 10:17.49 | divVerent | AND actually good support for long and alphanumeric lock codes |
| 10:17.55 | divVerent | i.e. real keyboard and working PW entry |
| 10:18.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/and/any/ |
| 10:18.14 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: so? this is why you always lock it :P |
| 10:18.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/ and/ any/ |
| 10:18.44 | divVerent | the lock screen of the N900 is actually a LOT more secure than the competition's... |
| 10:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | Shapeshifter complained about cleartext passwords he can see on his unlocked device |
| 10:18.50 | divVerent | due to not having so many features :P |
| 10:19.12 | divVerent | basically, I do not expect any hacks to break the N900 lock screen |
| 10:19.32 | divVerent | the only real chance you have is probably doing something tricky via USB |
| 10:19.45 | divVerent | the lock screen has ONE issue though... |
| 10:19.53 | divVerent | when the phone turned off the screen, then auto locked |
| 10:19.55 | divVerent | and you later unlock it |
| 10:20.04 | divVerent | you see for a split second the window below the lock screen |
| 10:20.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, yeah |
| 10:20.22 | divVerent | but that is just a minor information leak |
| 10:20.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | we could call that a bug |
| 10:20.29 | divVerent | yes |
| 10:20.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | on unlock the screen should get enabled only *after* refreshing it |
| 10:21.03 | divVerent | Blackberry did most of the security right, but its lock screen is bound to have the same vulns as Apple's or iOS's |
| 10:21.14 | divVerent | regarding full user data on crypto FS, there is more challenges |
| 10:21.22 | divVerent | e.g. what if you receive a SMS right after boot, before unlock |
| 10:21.42 | divVerent | Blackberry then stores the message in a temporary unencrypted location, to be moved to proper storage on unlock |
| 10:22.41 | divVerent | also... everyone knows this freezing RAM hack :P |
| 10:23.09 | divVerent | basically, an attacker who invests about like $1000 per targeted device type can easily crack disk encryption on any powered on device |
| 10:23.37 | divVerent | by freezing the RAM, removing the frozen RAM, and reading it out on another device |
| 10:24.09 | divVerent | of course, if I were such an attacker, I would rather invest these $1000 into cracking a specific iOS or Android device type than into cracking N900s... |
| 10:24.30 | divVerent | or actually, rather into Blackberry, as I can read most stuff from iPhones and Android anyway :P |
| 10:24.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually the modem stores the SMS until the AP/userland fetches it. Obviously not applicable for those crappy devices that don't even have an AP but run all processes on modem processor |
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| 10:24.59 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: sort of, but the user interface wants to show the SMS text on the lock screen :P |
| 10:25.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 10:25.12 | divVerent | which BTW is a security hole by itself |
| 10:25.13 | jaska | but.. if you open a blackberry, liquid feces will pour out. |
| 10:25.15 | divVerent | but ALL the current devices do it |
| 10:25.49 | divVerent | this is how you crack open an Apple device, knowing the email address of the guy: |
| 10:26.02 | divVerent | go to apple.com, ask for password reset... |
| 10:26.14 | divVerent | the powered on and networked iPhone will happily display a confirmation code on the lock screen :P |
| 10:26.31 | divVerent | they probably fixed THAT part, though... by putting more crap before the code |
| 10:26.43 | divVerent | but still, anything with SMS based confirmation will likely work |
| 10:27.30 | divVerent | while bashing competitioon phone security: Android |
| 10:27.37 | divVerent | it has security systems comparable to iOS... |
| 10:27.46 | divVerent | BUT: the SD card is always unencrypted |
| 10:27.50 | divVerent | and that is where all the photos go |
| 10:28.28 | divVerent | only Blackberry actually is capable of encrypting the SD card content out of the box... |
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| 10:51.14 | wnd | seems that my n900's internal memory(card) is busted. filesystems on mmcblk0p[12] keep breaking. :-( |
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| 10:58.40 | Lava_Croft | :< |
| 10:59.33 | Shapeshifter | I'm not sure why people use a lock screen... |
| 10:59.37 | Shapeshifter | i don't use one |
| 11:00.01 | Lava_Croft | i disable lockscreens on any device i can, if possible |
| 11:00.11 | Lava_Croft | if i have to count all the time ive spent looking at useless lockscreens.... |
| 11:01.17 | Shapeshifter | lock screen on androids are funny. You can spy on someone entering it from a mile away thanks to the connecting bars |
| 11:01.56 | orson | it is enough if you wipe the touchscreen before some unlocks it |
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| 11:02.18 | orson | then you will have quite clear traces of finger movement visible |
| 11:03.28 | orson | of course, depending on how greasy are fingers of the user ;) |
| 11:05.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | wnd: what exactly are the symptoms you see? |
| 11:05.14 | *** join/#maemo SAiF (73f9ca82@gateway/web/freenode/ip.115.249.202.130) |
| 11:05.54 | wnd | two consecutive fscks detect and repair errors (but only in interactive mode) |
| 11:06.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | wnd: *IF* your eMMC was flawed on hw level, you would face plenty of system panics due to swap getting corrupted |
| 11:06.46 | wnd | the thing no longer even boots to ui as init can't mount mydocs |
| 11:07.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | mydocs is not needed for booting |
| 11:07.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | /home is needed |
| 11:07.35 | wnd | well, the same happens with optfs (which I believe holds /home) |
| 11:07.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, home contains /opt |
| 11:08.02 | wnd | my mistake, I mentioned mydocs first because that's what I fscked twice (with errors) |
| 11:08.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsck more often than not fails when started on device to fix the VFAT on MyDocs |
| 11:09.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | your best option is to do a complete reflash |
| 11:09.16 | wnd | mmcblk0p[12] on this device are ext3 |
| 11:09.36 | wnd | I suppose I should give that a try |
| 11:10.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly suggest you test the device with a plain vanilla stock fremantle system |
| 11:10.07 | wnd | and perhaps run dd on those devices to see if I get io errors |
| 11:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | data corruption on flash rarely ever is related to IO errors |
| 11:12.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and on my side jury is still out on ext3 and its journalling, on flash. It easily might be worse than plain ext2 |
| 11:13.18 | wnd | that's probably correct |
| 11:13.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | since unlike on HDD, on flash you can't write single sectors |
| 11:13.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | physically you always have to rewrite complete erase-pages |
| 11:15.04 | *** join/#maemo BCMM (~BCMM@unaffiliated/bcmm) |
| 11:15.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw BWAHAHAHA @ USA: "he doesn't own a valid passport anymore since the USA canceled it" - I *never* heard of remote invalidation of a valid passport. That's the whole point of a passport |
| 11:16.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | (sorry for OT, but I had to say that) |
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| 11:31.41 | Raimu | :) |
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| 11:37.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsckng US-government always thinks they can bend or invent new laws just like they seem fit |
| 11:38.24 | Raimu | Bad thing is they usually get away with it |
| 11:38.35 | Raimu | Through sheer weight |
| 11:38.46 | jaska | might makes right |
| 11:38.56 | Raimu | haha |
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| 11:39.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, we didn't murder that guy, we eliminated a unlawful combattant / terrorist / <up-to-you>, which is perfectly legal according to that new US law anywhere on this globe |
| 11:40.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSCKYOU according to MY law it's perfectly legal to blast you off my lawn when you ever dare to show up here |
| 11:41.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | heats up the MTHEL |
| 11:41.55 | rikanee | the kind of mass-collection and analysis power they have is /scary/. |
| 11:42.22 | Raimu | Thankfully any collection of insane amounts of data is ultimately impossible to process, therefore relatively safe |
| 11:42.46 | Raimu | That is, unless someone invents something straight out of science fiction. |
| 11:42.47 | rikanee | backed with fiber taps and ZBs of storage and counting, the only thing missing is processing power for all of it |
| 11:43.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, though as soon as they want to know about *your* sexula preferences or whatever, it's the easiest thing to grep thru that insane amount of random data for your IPs, mail addr, and whatnot |
| 11:43.52 | Raimu | Yes, that's right though. |
| 11:45.07 | rikanee | speaking of which, makes me interested to feed an Accumulo instance raw wireshark caps of my home network. |
| 11:46.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | wich is the exact problem with that shit: it's useless for what they claim they do it for, but it is *easily* abused to e.g. allow/deny a visa based on you-dunno-what-they-gep'ed-the-data-for |
| 11:47.13 | Raimu | DocScrutinizer05: Yeaaaah |
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| 11:56.32 | SAiF | They can break any password with a dictionary attack using all that info. HAHA |
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| 13:10.56 | Iridos | DocScrutinizer05, well... traveling to the US and I had to answer the question if I "was involved in genocide" ... hmmm, now was I? Or if I'm entering with the goal to commit terrorist activities.... well, no, but what if I change my mind until then? |
| 13:17.46 | Lava_Croft | Iridos: When my brother visited the USA they were so welcoming |
| 13:17.51 | Lava_Croft | with automatic rifles |
| 13:18.00 | Lava_Croft | treating him like a terrorist |
| 13:20.15 | SAiF | Yet they say it is a Free Country |
| 13:23.43 | Lava_Croft | i guess once you are inside! :D |
| 13:29.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's probably indeed a free country. In the sense that everybody does whatever they like. Including the three-letter-agencies and down to the last dumbass countryside sheriff or flatfoot police officer |
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| 13:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | when police there wants to charge you for speeding, it's not about your car plate and photos of your steering the car, it's about police needing a faster car than you have, to catch you right away |
| 13:32.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | in a certain aspect they still have wild west cowboy regulations over there |
| 13:32.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they act globally exactly like that |
| 13:39.31 | Lava_Croft | they looked very closely at their european forefather |
| 13:39.35 | Lava_Croft | and realized: we can do this much better |
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| 13:39.54 | Lava_Croft | europe is also becoming much a fortress like the USA is |
| 13:40.25 | Lava_Croft | at least the USA doesnt put immigrant children in jail while awaiting to be deported |
| 13:40.28 | Lava_Croft | NL does:) |
| 13:40.58 | Lava_Croft | and those 3 letter agencies in the USA can only dream of the powers that Dutch agencies have |
| 13:41.17 | jaska | oh, here.. the police can grant themselves search warrants. |
| 13:41.19 | Lava_Croft | (over their own citizens of course) |
| 13:41.25 | Lava_Croft | oh, they dont need warrants here |
| 13:41.29 | Lava_Croft | they can just wiretap all they want |
| 13:41.39 | Lava_Croft | cameras at the roads take pics of my license plate and store it for 2 years at least |
| 13:41.53 | Lava_Croft | DPI and checking surfing behaviour is all common practice here |
| 13:42.08 | Lava_Croft | that why NL is the second country to put net neutrality into law |
| 13:42.22 | Lava_Croft | that way you can point at it and say: "look, we embrace freedom!" |
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| 13:56.49 | GeneralAntilles | One nice thing that had been keeping the effectiveness of a lot of that stupid shot at bay in the US was the lack of interagency communication. Especially between state and Fed level agencies. |
| 13:57.01 | GeneralAntilles | Now it's all going into massive databases. |
| 13:57.22 | GeneralAntilles | The DEA has quietly been installing highway license plate cameras. |
| 14:00.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: the point probably is you don't really need a licence plate at all for driving around with your car in USA |
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| 14:01.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, you probably better had one, but if you don't - does it matter? |
| 14:02.39 | GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer05, no, a cop or sheriff or highway patrol will stop you at some point. |
| 14:03.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah sure, they stop you. and then? |
| 14:04.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you have any documents along with such licence plate? |
| 14:04.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | or could you use an arbitrary plate on your car and no cop would even notice when checking you |
| 14:05.21 | Lava_Croft | here they just check your license plate in the dbase right away |
| 14:05.30 | Lava_Croft | and if something is not in order, you have problems |
| 14:05.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 14:05.35 | Lava_Croft | be it tax debt, fines, whatever |
| 14:05.43 | Lava_Croft | usually they put everybody in one parking lot |
| 14:05.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | right |
| 14:05.49 | Lava_Croft | from the IRS to cops to whatever |
| 14:05.54 | Lava_Croft | and hold razzia's along the highway |
| 14:06.00 | Lava_Croft | checking up on everyone they deem suspicious |
| 14:06.20 | Lava_Croft | its great spending 2h at a police station because a friend of yours is in the army |
| 14:06.26 | Lava_Croft | and has empty bullet casings in his car |
| 14:06.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I heard in USA you sell the car with all the tickets *the car* collected over time, that not yet been paid |
| 14:07.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | so sometimes you have to pay for getting rid of the car ;-P |
| 14:07.06 | Lava_Croft | tying fines to the license plate is an awesome idea:D |
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| 14:09.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | "Nice car! why do you sell it? and THAT cheap!" <opens glove box - 200 tickets ooze out> "UGH! Yeah that's why" |
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| 14:10.12 | ecc3g | huh? fines are tied to the registration tied to the tags... car sold, fines stay with the previous registrar... |
| 14:10.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | in USA? |
| 14:10.31 | ecc3g | yes... |
| 14:10.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, maybe that's obsolete or incorrect info then on my side |
| 14:10.50 | ecc3g | I get new tags every time I buy a car... |
| 14:11.27 | ecc3g | they "are" tied to tags of course but they go back to whoever registered the car. |
| 14:11.28 | GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer05, don't trust information about the US you get in Europe. :) |
| 14:11.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, usually the truth is much worse X-P |
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| 14:13.14 | GeneralAntilles | More like, completely unrelated. ;) |
| 14:13.40 | GeneralAntilles | And don't forget the US is a federation of states. |
| 14:13.54 | GeneralAntilles | So rules are often quite different from state to state. |
| 14:15.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I *think* I got this as a story from a good friend, 20 years or somesuch ago, after he visited US to get his PP licence |
| 14:16.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | PP? whatever pilot license |
| 14:17.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | curses his spellchecker for not knowing correct English |
| 14:18.22 | ecc3g | provisional pilot license? |
| 14:18.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 14:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought it's called PP, but I'm not sure about it |
| 14:19.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~seen Woody14619 |
| 14:19.44 | infobot | woody14619 is currently on #maemo #maemo-ssu. Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 18h 52m, last said: 'I'd say, yes, that's a great reason to advertise it (and to hopefully garner a bit more of appreciation to those who volunteer their time for such).'. |
| 14:22.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so the story is a) pretty old, and b) from SF area, if it's actually been told by my friend |
| 14:24.06 | HtheB | DocScrutinizer05, do you have any knowledge of extracting rootfs |
| 14:24.26 | HtheB | (tarring it) |
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| 14:26.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | HtheB: err, please elaborate |
| 14:27.16 | HtheB | i have a proto device laying here |
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| 14:27.38 | HtheB | just want to extract the rootfs to try it on the regular N950 |
| 14:27.45 | HtheB | (maybe using ubiboot) |
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| 14:37.25 | Shapeshifter | fucking modest!! it regularily eats 100% CPU and my battery... |
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| 14:42.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | HtheB: well, I'd think a normal tar -czvf should do, unless you run into troubles with all the virtual filesystems |
| 14:43.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | stuff like /dev and /sys for sure is sth you usually/mostly don't want to add to your tarball |
| 14:44.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | HtheB: I feel like I can't give good advice, please ask somebody with better knowledge |
| 14:44.45 | kerio | you probably want to mount the root device on a separate directory |
| 14:44.50 | kerio | and tar from there |
| 14:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, this sounds good |
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| 14:53.06 | HtheB | kerio, I coulnd't |
| 14:53.11 | HtheB | keeps asking if I was root |
| 14:53.13 | HtheB | which I was -_- |
| 14:53.16 | kerio | ~aegis |
| 14:53.17 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 14:57.50 | HtheB | kerip, afaik, there is no aegis in the proto devices |
| 14:59.04 | HtheB | kerio * |
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| 15:14.45 | Haro | How do you install the SSL certificates on the N900 to use wget with https? |
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| 15:33.17 | Haro | How do you install the SSL certificates on the N900 to use wget with https? |
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| 15:43.06 | orson | Haro: I know it's not the direct answer to your questions, but maybe you don't need certificates and simply use the --no-check-certificate parameter? |
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| 15:55.39 | kerio | you don't /need/ certificates |
| 15:55.43 | kerio | but they are somewhat good |
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| 16:04.01 | orson | I agree, it just depends on the situation - it occurred to me a few times that I wanted to download a script from https website, but I could not as the certificate could not be verified |
| 16:04.37 | orson | and it was not highly secured data, so the simplest solution worked the best |
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| 17:32.15 | discopig | hi |
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| 19:09.38 | Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, would love to read your comment: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86207&page=3 |
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