IRC log for #maemo on 20130608

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00:45.44Win7Macgeek news extra! RAID 1 available for CF-cards: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=18394
00:46.20Win7Macme says good night
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01:51.04sombragrishi there
01:51.11sombragrisI have a question...
01:51.22sombragrisI have trouble authenticating to Twitter with TwimGo
01:51.37sombragrisis there any help or hint on how to overcome the problem?
01:51.46sombragristhanks in advance
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02:11.06sombragrisswitching clients
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02:13.27sombragrishi again...
02:13.58sombragrisanyone who could figure out how to login to twitter with TwimGo? I use the N900
02:14.45GeneralAntillesProbably an API update broke it.
02:15.18sombragrisindeed :/
02:19.58DocScrutinizer05hi GeneralAntilles
02:20.04GeneralAntilles'lo
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03:54.15divVerentjust installed yesterday's CSSU upgrade and now it is bricked... as in, it boots to black screen with backlight (after nokia logo stuff etc.)
03:54.25divVerentI can still start backupmenu
03:54.37divVerentso how to recover? I really have no time for reflash and get ALL setup again
03:54.47divVerentthat'd take me like a few days :(
03:55.29divVerentI did it when HAM offered it yesterday... so one thing that'd help me is which components actually were replaced (as HAM hides that info)
03:56.52divVerentI also tried adding modprobe fbcon to /sbin/preinit to see boot messages, but the problem happens after graphical startup
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04:05.03divVerenthm... also, backupmenu's serial console does not let me log in
04:55.15DocScrutinizer05I heard removal of uSD card might fix stuff. Only info from a cursory read
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06:53.40Wizzup_Seems my package was uploaded to extras-devel, cool, so something worked :)
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07:10.48divVerentDocScrutinizer05: tried, did not
07:11.05divVerentsyslog says that The name com.nokia.system_ui was not provided by any service file
07:11.08divVerentTHAT sounds VERY critical
07:11.30divVerentI think I'll go with Android, I really don't have the time to fix this kind of stuff in my free time :(
07:12.00divVerentas THAT sure means reflash, lose all settings, lose all packages...
07:12.14divVerentand unlike ANdroid and iOS, N900 has no means to preserve this stuff on an OS reflash
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07:38.36sixwheeledbeastdivVerent: BM will backup most and default backup app will do package list/contacts etc
07:38.54sixwheeledbeastAlso the update is being worked on
07:40.05sixwheeledbeastthis is testing CSSU update it's called CSSU Testing for a reason...
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08:59.26divVerentsixwheeledbeast: I never activated CSSU Testing
08:59.34divVerentonly CSSU and (supposedly stable) CSSU Thumb
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09:30.34divVerentoh, CSSU-Thumb is based on testing, not stable... stupid. Will never use that crap again then.
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11:50.00freemangordonhi, anyone here that was hit by the "boot loop" issue in the latest CSSU-T?
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12:40.24DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: one line up
12:41.43freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: so?
12:42.00freemangordonis someone CBA to read, it is not my fault
12:42.41DocScrutinizer05sorry then. But don't ask when you don't want an answer
12:43.09freemangordonhmm? I was asking for someone with stock kernel
12:43.19DocScrutinizer05no
12:43.31freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: seems I am missing something
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12:43.41DocScrutinizer05[2013-06-08 13:50:00] <freemangordon> hi, anyone here that was hit by the "boot loop" issue in the latest CSSU-T?
12:43.49freemangordonyes
12:43.50DocScrutinizer05[2013-06-08 05:54:15] <divVerent> just installed yesterday's CSSU upgrade and now it is bricked... as in, it boots to black screen with backlight (after nokia logo stuff etc.)
12:44.18freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: this should be something different
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12:44.53freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I am trying to find someone who is hot by "can't boot with CD card in"
12:44.58freemangordon*hit
12:48.10freemangordonwonders where is merlin1991
12:49.02DocScrutinizer05wonders where's mgedmin (and povbot, for that matter)
12:49.18DocScrutinizer05FFS
12:49.23freemangordonseems today is MIA day
12:49.28DocScrutinizer05where are netsplits when you need them
12:50.02DocScrutinizer05~log
12:50.02infobotfrom memory, log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
12:50.12DocScrutinizer05~logs
12:50.12infobotAll conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.
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13:41.59Skry~flashing
13:42.00infobotsomebody said maemo-flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
13:44.16Skryahh, nice, page wont even load
13:50.13DocScrutinizer05WUT?
13:50.35DocScrutinizer05loads like thunder lightling here
13:50.42DocScrutinizer05lightning even
13:51.24DocScrutinizer05actually wiki is faster than any single time I tested it during last 4 weeks
13:53.37DocScrutinizer05http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/wiki.maemo.org  -> It's just you. http://wiki.maemo.org is up.
13:54.18Skrywell, everything else seems to be working ok. Doesnt matter though, google cache.
13:55.39DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter? ok, then I shut down the servers
13:56.42DocScrutinizer05why waste 19h/d into keeping infra alive when it doesn't matter anyway?
13:57.41DocScrutinizer05techstaff will love to hear that they finally can have a long holiday
13:59.27DocScrutinizer05shakes head
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14:01.23SkryYour problem is? If wiki is not working for me, and I can get the info I need from cache, so this problem does not matter for me currently, sure go ahead power off everything if you like and bitch as much you ever want if you feel it's good behavior.
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14:04.03DocScrutinizer05Skry: go ahed and ponder your behaviour regarding being a community member that cares
14:05.04DocScrutinizer05if wiki doesn't work for you but you don't care to even find out why, then pretty please don't come here ranting about it
14:05.31Skryok
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14:05.41DocScrutinizer05since you made me waste 10min of my time to check what's wrong with the infra I'm supposed to keep alive for YOUR convenience
14:05.46DocScrutinizer05sucker
14:06.46DocScrutinizer05("sucker" been for him parting the channel)
14:09.54DocScrutinizer05ok, he honestly made my day already
14:12.14DocScrutinizer05ponders adding a 24h IP block in maemo firewall on adsl-77-109-215-222.kymp.net
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14:19.47DocScrutinizer05homestly, when majority of users think it doesn't matter if *.maemo.org works or not, just let me know. I honestly got other ways to avoid getting bored than taking care about that infra 24/7
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14:26.55GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, relax, man.
14:27.05GeneralAntillesIt's not a personal attack against you.
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14:31.12DocScrutinizer05sure. When the guest dining at Paul Bocuse asks for the Ketchup, that's also no personal attack against the cook. Still I heard guests been threatened with huge kitchen knifes for that
14:31.50DocScrutinizer05sorry, found no better analogy ;-)
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14:33.59DocScrutinizer05it's just that I get upset when users don't give a flying F about helping to diagnose problems or the guys keeping stuff alive, as long as those lusers just find a way to get they current problem solved
14:38.28DocScrutinizer05if somebody had vandalized complete wiki, those users wouldn't care as long as google cache or archive.org has what they search for. once archive.org goes down they come here whining why wiki not available *anywhere* anymore, not relizing that maybe 4 weeks earlier we still might have restored the wiki but now all backups are damaged too and no way to fix the problem they happily worked around when they first noticed it
14:39.49DocScrutinizer05general CBA attitude that annoys me
14:41.29DocScrutinizer05sure I could dns lookup adsl-77-109-215-222.kymp.net now, then check the access.log and error.log of w.m.o to find out what might have been the issue
14:41.51DocScrutinizer05but then, there starts *my* CBA
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14:48.30DocScrutinizer05on a second thought, it *is* kind of a personal attack, since I take pride in *.m.o availability and uptime
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15:26.42merlin1991freemangordon: nah today was sleep in day
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15:47.13divVerentfreemangordon: I had tried removing SD card, has nothing to do with it
15:47.29divVerentreflashed now, but no longer using cssu-thumb OR testign
15:47.57divVerentand it sure was no reboot loop, as I had rebooted yesterday evening and syslog spammed lots of -- MARK -- over night
15:48.05divVerentand screen was black and backlit during that time
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17:17.21GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, yes, I understand that you're irritated, and why, but it's not productive to rant at these people.
17:17.29GeneralAntillesQuite the opposite, in fact.
17:17.41DocScrutinizer05obviously
17:17.56DocScrutinizer05sorry, he cought me during my first coffee
17:18.59DocScrutinizer05also the last 3 days were a nightmare, which made me wonder if it's really worth it
17:19.29DocScrutinizer05not his fault, sure
17:21.03GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, we're going to install a client plugin that makes you wait 10 seconds to reply. :P
17:21.21divVerentDocScrutinizer05: BTW the wiki actually works better than ever... don't even know why, I do remember it was slow at times...
17:21.41freemangordondivVerent: so, it was working after the update, correct?
17:21.51divVerentfreemangordon: no
17:22.00divVerentfreemangordon: or rather, it booted, but only to black backlit screen
17:22.08divVerentso the OS itself works, and did not enter reboot loop
17:22.09freemangordonI see
17:22.11divVerentonly the UI was missing
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17:22.33freemangordondivVerent: do you have Nitdroid installed by chance?
17:22.34divVerentI still have a full rootfs dump of the "failure" done with backupmenu... wonder if it can be any help
17:22.38divVerentno
17:22.45freemangordondivVerent: it will be
17:22.46divVerentnow I switched to CSSU, no thumb, no testing
17:23.11divVerentand only two system files manually modified :P
17:23.20freemangordonpastebin/upload the contents of /var/log
17:23.28divVerent1. a fontconfig fix for a weird fontconfig bug not happening on other systems... and affecting only a single font
17:23.29freemangordondivVerent: ^^^
17:23.34divVerentyes, will try
17:23.38divVerent2. modified xkb keymap
17:24.04divVerentbefore I did a bit more mess, so MAYBE it even was my fault... but well, if I had seen what the update actually entalis, I may have known how to proceed before
17:24.07divVerentbut HAM doesn't show that...
17:24.30divVerentok, sshd still missing... fixing :)
17:24.52freemangordondivVerent: I suspect FS corruption, "fixed" by maemo's old e2fstools
17:25.11divVerentyes, that may be
17:25.25divVerentI did have some FS corruption before on this device, when also using dm-crypt
17:25.26freemangordonand that will become clear from the logs
17:25.31divVerentbut this stopped when no longer using dm-crypt
17:25.31DocScrutinizer05divVerent: backup APP should allow you to install basically all apps you had installed when you did the backup
17:25.42divVerentDocScrutinizer05: "sort of"
17:25.52divVerentdoes it run the CSSU enabler? :)
17:26.05DocScrutinizer05obviously not ;-)
17:26.11divVerentor rather, how can I see in advance what it will restore
17:26.14divVerentthe whole apt state?
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17:26.42DocScrutinizer05it gives you a long checkmark list to select which apps to "restore"
17:26.48divVerentno, I mean
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17:26.58divVerentI did not do this kind of backup, because I read its restore is quite flaky anyway
17:27.06divVerentonly my own full FS backups
17:27.34divVerentI mean, does it also restore programs installed via apt-get install from extras?
17:27.42divVerentand does it also restore the extras repo info?
17:27.51DocScrutinizer05well, that's unfortunate. backup+resore *app* is quite helpful for a few special procedures like installing a selection of apps
17:27.55freemangordondivVerent: it is preinstalled
17:28.26freemangordonand yes, it restores both the repos and applications iirc
17:28.30divVerentI mean
17:28.36divVerentonly applications installed via HAM
17:28.39divVerentor also those installed via apt?
17:28.51divVerentbecause I install most additional stuff via apt... less waiting for stupid HAM
17:29.15freemangordononly those in "user" section iirc, no mater HAM or apt
17:29.21DocScrutinizer05yes, nackup+restore has a list of repos to activate to get the apps to install from. You however have no link of particular app to a particular repo iirc
17:29.29divVerentbut extras repo is sections free and non-free
17:29.53freemangordonso?
17:30.00divVerent19:29:15     freemangordon | only those in "user" section iirc, no mater HAM or apt
17:30.07divVerentthat would mean it'd restore nothing from extras
17:30.16DocScrutinizer05and it *probably* won't restore any apps that never show up in HAM to start with
17:30.31freemangordondivVerent: most of the applications in extras fall in that
17:30.32divVerentwhat defines what shows up in HAM BTW?
17:30.41divVerentyes, like my own encfs build
17:30.43freemangordonthe "user" section ;)
17:30.46divVerentso what did I do wrong?
17:31.00divVerentwait, section as in?
17:31.04freemangordondivVerent: who said you did something wrong?
17:31.12divVerentthis free non-free stuff in sources.list
17:31.15freemangordonno
17:31.15DocScrutinizer05o/ bbl
17:31.24divVerentoh, only the dpkg attribute
17:31.50divVerentok, ssh started...
17:32.08freemangordondivVerent: Section: in debian/control
17:32.12divVerentis there btw be a status applet showinf IP addresses?
17:33.42freemangordondivVerent: there might be one, but I guess ipconfig is faster
17:34.01divVerentipconfig is what I use now, but if I could just open the status pulldown, that'd be faster
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17:36.35freemangordondivVerent: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/personal-ip-address/
17:36.49freemangordondivVerent: though there was something wrong wit it iirc
17:36.57divVerentfreemangordon: yes, it is a widget
17:37.00divVerentso it eats battery
17:37.09freemangordonwhat?
17:37.16divVerentwidgets always run as process
17:37.25divVerentand get expose events and all such stuff when you open the desktop
17:37.25freemangordonwhy do you think that widgets eat battery?
17:37.28freemangordonwrong
17:37.29divVerentand lots of other X11 events
17:37.34divVerentbecause they always run as processes?
17:37.37freemangordonwidgets run in hildon-home
17:37.48freemangordon(process)
17:37.57divVerentodd... some widgets I tried are extra processes
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17:38.21freemangordonwell, nothing stops widgets starting external processess
17:38.31divVerentbut good to know it is not always like that
17:38.35divVerentsome weather widget e.g. did that
17:39.04freemangordondivVerent: contact widgets too, but this is implementation specific
17:39.27freemangordonbut by design h-h load an .so
17:39.32freemangordon*loads
17:39.41divVerentgood
17:39.52divVerentthat way it should not add any extra processing when desktop is not viewed
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17:40.00divVerent(while an X11 window would)
17:41.03freemangordondivVerent: I have lots of widgets enabled, didn;t see any difference in battery usage. Not saying there are not some that will eat the battery
17:41.52divVerentBTW, I had noticed qtmobilehotspot is broken
17:41.53freemangordonbut in general thay should not increase the battery life. even if they run external process
17:41.56divVerentas in, breaks charging via USB
17:42.04freemangordonsometimes yes
17:42.11divVerentcharging via charger tends to work
17:42.14divVerentbut via notebook not
17:42.28divVerentso is there an alternate tool with less breakage?
17:42.29freemangordonwell, report a bug to the maintainer
17:42.50freemangordondivVerent: for me it is the best tool for its job
17:43.30divVerenthm... logging in via sshd is VERY slow, can't even get a shell before it times out... maybe my WLAN is at fault here
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17:43.54divVerentyes, it is... damn
17:44.02divVerentISP line faster than WLAN...
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17:46.30divVerentBTW I also have a reboot loop in my log, but that may be a different issue
17:46.42divVerentas I was plugged in via USB and that sometimes does that
17:46.55freemangordondivVerent: should not do
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17:50.12divVerentthe "reboot loop" was in ACT_DEAD state BTW
17:50.34freemangordonweird
17:51.30divVerenthttp://bpaste.net/show/105517/ - one of the "loop"
17:52.24merlin1991~rescueos
17:52.25infobot[rescue-os] http://206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/
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17:52.49divVerenthttp://bpaste.net/show/105518/ - the boot right after the upgrade
17:53.23divVerentthis is how it ended up after the reboot the upgrade did
17:53.37freemangordoninit: rcS-late main process (969) terminated with status 1
17:54.27freemangordonweird
17:54.28divVerentnow if it were to say WHY it failed...
17:54.58freemangordondivVerent: upload e2fs logs please
17:55.00divVerentBTW, I had multiple boots before actually undone my changes to rcS-late by --reinstall install <package>
17:55.06divVerentwhere are these?
17:55.16freemangordon"/var/log"
17:55.39freemangordonPali: ^^^ ?
17:56.49divVerentfreemangordon: not there
17:56.58divVerentI have maemo-optify-boottime.log, pycentral.log, syslog, syslog.old
17:57.17divVerentmaemo-optify-boottime.log and pycentral.log two days older, though
17:57.40freemangordondivVerent: could you paste the next boot log after http://bpaste.net/show/105517/
17:57.50freemangordonas ^^^ is ok
17:58.11Palifreemangordon: fsck logs are in /var/log
17:58.38freemangordonPali: for come reason there are no such log on divVerent's device
17:58.43Paliin pr1.0 (and maybe pr1.2/3) was fsck log in /var/lib/
17:58.44freemangordon*logs
17:59.05Palibut cssu patches rcS-late storing all logs to /var/log/
17:59.20freemangordonPali: btw who cleans tose logs?
17:59.27freemangordon*those
17:59.55Palinobody
18:00.13Palior at least I do not know that something cleaning them...
18:00.17Palimaybe temp-reaper?
18:01.47divVerentvar/lib/what?
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18:02.14divVerentAH, I see the issue
18:02.22divVerentdespite me having restored rcS-late...
18:02.29divVerentby apt-get --reinstall
18:02.36divVerent(and verifying it did get restored)
18:02.42freemangordondivVerent: you need --purge
18:02.43divVerentit installed the new rcS-late with .dpkg-dist suffix
18:02.46divVerentso it caused a frankensystem
18:03.12divVerent--purge with --reinstall?
18:03.22divVerentI actually had moved away the file then did --reinstall
18:03.26divVerentand verified that it came back
18:03.27freemangordonwell, not exactly :)
18:03.31divVerentso I had thought this should do it
18:03.48*** join/#maemo FIQ (~fiq@unaffiliated/fiq)
18:04.08divVerentok, so at least we now know what it was...
18:04.12freemangordondivVerent: you see the problem I guess
18:04.16freemangordonyep
18:04.20divVerentalso, pulseaudio's script got also updated with a .dpkg-new suffix
18:04.24divVerentdespite me never having touched it
18:05.19freemangordondivVerent: PEBCAK?
18:05.22freemangordon:P
18:05.28divVerentsure not regarding PA
18:05.46divVerentand regarding rcS-late - no
18:05.54divVerentthe old version is the orginal one, and it came from a dpkg install process
18:05.57divVerentso dpkg screwed up here
18:06.03divVerentstill, not Maemo...
18:06.06divVerentshould try this on a debian box
18:06.17freemangordondivVerent: could you do diff of PA config files?
18:06.35freemangordonmaybe it'll give some clue
18:06.42divVerentno, not now... closed mc now
18:06.57divVerentnow rather checking why the rcS-late changes not applied caused an unbootable system
18:07.04divVerent+      dd if=$RANDOM of=/dev/urandom bs=$URANDOM_POOLSZ count=1
18:07.12freemangordondivVerent: BTW I remember that apt asks whether to "install maintainers version..." etc
18:07.16divVerentthis BTW is scary... hope busybox sh never tries to become more bash compatible
18:07.32divVerentin bash, $RANDOM is special
18:08.17divVerentah, the new script builds a fstab
18:08.20divVerentthe old script did not
18:08.23divVerentI see why that broke then
18:08.33freemangordonso, no fstab?
18:08.33divVerentsomething later apparently relies on this fstab
18:08.51divVerentbecause, otherwise these two versions of the script do essentially the same
18:09.13divVerentwonder if the old script always exited with status 1 and it just was no issue before
18:09.22divVerent-    osso-product-info > /sys/kernel/debug/panic_info_buff
18:09.27divVerentit did do this at all times at the end
18:09.37freemangordondivVerent: this can be seen in syslog
18:09.46freemangordon(rcS-late exiting with 1)
18:09.52divVerentyes, just don't care... rather need to find out where dpkg went wrong and why
18:10.53divVerentdamn, screwing with fuse.conf for this was a bad idea... reinstalling it calls update-initramfs which takes long :P
18:12.09divVerentcurrent dpkg is even worse... it even remembers when a config file was removed, and won't even restore it then
18:12.59freemangordondivVerent: on a side note - it was you wating for a PC to come?
18:13.03divVerentyes
18:13.05freemangordonok
18:13.25divVerentPC is mostly there, BTW... some wiring has to be done though
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18:13.42divVerentswiss plugs and such stuff :P
18:13.43freemangordontime for the soldering iron?
18:13.48freemangordon:P
18:13.51divVerenthaha
18:14.01divVerentI just never ever BOUGHT PC cables
18:14.03divVerentthey came with the PC
18:14.11divVerentand now I don't even know where to get them for an ok price...
18:14.31freemangordondivVerent: computer stores?
18:14.50freemangordonBTW which cables?
18:15.08freemangordonyou should have the powering cables attached to the power module
18:15.17divVerentfreemangordon: AC cables...
18:15.20freemangordonoh
18:15.22divVerentyes, but the other side is a german plug
18:15.33freemangordongerman?
18:15.37divVerentcurrently have it SOMEWHAT running with a power adaptor
18:15.41divVerentI moved from germany to switzerland
18:15.48divVerentbut also I need ethernet still...
18:15.52freemangordonisn;t it all EU?
18:15.55divVerentno
18:16.00freemangordonwtf?
18:16.01divVerent1. Switzerland isn't in EU
18:16.11divVerent2. EU countries still have their own grounded national plugs
18:16.20divVerentfun fact: Germany and Ukraine share the plug
18:16.24divVerentGermany and France don't
18:16.27freemangordonoh, so they don;t use shuko(or whatever it is called)?
18:16.31divVerentnope
18:16.37freemangordonfunny
18:16.40divVerentbut "Euro plug" (the 2-pin one) is EU-wide universal
18:16.42divVerentAND switzerland too
18:17.56divVerentso THIS is the proper way to restore a config file:
18:17.58divVerentrm configfile
18:18.02divVerentapt-get -o=Dpkg::Options::=--force-confmiss --reinstall install package
18:18.14divVerentsimpler stuff doesn't work, dpkg sucks :(
18:18.21merlin1991afaik dpkg has a simpler way
18:18.27divVerentyes, --force-confmiss :)
18:18.48divVerentbut then the command line gets longer due to the /var/cache/apt/... path :)
18:19.13divVerentand on Maemo, a simple reinstall did something that LOOKED like what it should be doing... except that it did not
18:19.18divVerentDebian fixed this later :)
18:20.03divVerentthe actual proper option BTW is --force-confask
18:20.13divVerentthen one doesn't need to delete the file to be restored first
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18:32.07DocScrutinizer05never occured to me that France doesn't use schuko plugs
18:35.26DocScrutinizer05meh! http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schukostecker vs (french) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stecker-Typ_E. All newer Schuko should fit to Typ_E as well
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18:36.01DocScrutinizer05CEE 7/7
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18:38.36DocScrutinizer05lart Swiss http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stecker-Typ_J
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18:55.24divVerentDocScrutinizer05: swiss plug is actually a lart
18:55.26divVerentthe old one
18:55.34divVerenthttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:LethalSocket.jpg
18:55.50DocScrutinizer05yeah
18:56.06DocScrutinizer05the new ones are not much better
18:56.32DocScrutinizer05particularly the 10A vs 16A issue
18:56.40divVerentnew devices must have isolation at the pins, though
18:56.41divVerentto fix this issue
18:56.48divVerentyes, the 10A vs 16A issue is bad
18:57.20divVerentin Switzerland, multi sockets actually CAN be dangerous
18:57.26DocScrutinizer05yes
18:57.34divVerentin Germany, not so much (but the urban legend is spread around anyway)
18:57.36divVerenthttp://pics.ricardostatic.ch/2_672658434_Big/elektromaterial/dreier-steckdose.jpg
18:57.41divVerentthe typical swiss wall socket BTW
18:57.45divVerentI like these...
18:57.48keriowtf
18:57.51keriothat's horrible
18:57.54divVerentexcept for STUPID EURO PLUG POWER SUPPLIES THAT COVER ALL THREE SOCKETS
18:58.08divVerentkerio: it is 3 sockets on the space of one
18:58.10divVerentit is quite neat
18:58.19keriosurely not, a single socket is much smaller than that
18:58.26divVerentnot much
18:58.42divVerentthe wall socket/switch "slots" in walls are the same size in germany and switzerland
18:59.18DocScrutinizer05kerio: btw you should hush - you're Italian ;-P
18:59.26keriothe superior plug
18:59.30divVerentwhat IS weird with this socket...
18:59.35divVerentyou also can plug devices in the wrong way
18:59.35keriohttp://www.global-electron.com/plugs/italian_plug.jpg
18:59.46divVerenteuro plugs fit on all six sides of the hexagon, sometimes
18:59.53divVerentsoemtimes not, though, sometimes the hexagon is not regular
19:00.14divVerentkerio: basically the same, except these can be turned around
19:00.21divVerentbasically, swiss plug done right :)
19:00.30kerioindeed
19:00.38divVerentI never understood why the swiss plug has to enforce polarity
19:01.01DocScrutinizer05enforcing polarity is a nice thing, technically speaking
19:01.01divVerentthere already IS separate ground, and thus why should polarity of AC matter then
19:01.07divVerentfor AC? why?
19:01.24DocScrutinizer05since even AC has a live and a neutral
19:01.29divVerentsure
19:01.42divVerentbut when does it make sense for a device to rely on their order
19:01.57DocScrutinizer05and cheap appliances can switch the live wire
19:02.06DocScrutinizer05instead of the neutral
19:02.07divVerentthat is forbidden in germany AND switzerland
19:02.18divVerentone always has to switch both
19:02.27DocScrutinizer05haha
19:02.42divVerentI actually know ONE AC device for which polarity matters
19:02.46divVerentbed lamps with touch switch
19:02.52divVerentyou touch metal, it toggles
19:03.03divVerentit works better in one polarity than in the other
19:03.08divVerentbut IMHO that is a design mistake in the lamp
19:03.09DocScrutinizer05sure
19:03.21divVerentsuch a device should never have an euro plug anyway, but use a proper ground
19:03.35divVerentbasically, that this happens basically proves the metal part is not galvanically separated from the AC
19:03.37DocScrutinizer05eerr yep
19:04.03DocScrutinizer05it is *galvanically* separated
19:04.04divVerentit probably is a huge resistance
19:04.17divVerenta huge non-ohmic resistance then :)
19:04.24divVerentnot really much difference, safety wise, though
19:04.36divVerentwhether it is a capacitor on AC or a resistor
19:04.50DocScrutinizer05:nod:
19:04.55DocScrutinizer05usual crap
19:04.56divVerentactually... aren't capacitors for that even MORE dangerous, as they can fail short?
19:05.14divVerentwhile high ohmic resistors tend to not do that?
19:05.23DocScrutinizer05that's why only certain builds of capacitor are allowed for that purpose
19:05.38divVerentI see
19:06.00DocScrutinizer05the ones always mared with that triange with ! inside, in schematics ;-)
19:06.03divVerentstill... this device probably SHOULD rather have been built with a separated circuit for the switching that works relative to "real ground"
19:06.05DocScrutinizer05marked
19:07.05divVerentit's still fun... but it is until now the only AC device I have seen for which polarity even matters
19:07.15divVerentBTW, I discovered another hazard of swiss AND italian plugs :P
19:07.39kerio?
19:07.39divVerenthttp://0.tqn.com/d/goitaly/1/0/W/4/-/-/socket-normal.jpg
19:07.43divVerentassumign this socket
19:07.52divVerentnot the one that sits deeper in the wall
19:07.53kerioyeah, that's about standard
19:08.11divVerentnow, clip off one of the side prongs of your plug :)
19:08.21kerio...why would i do that?
19:08.25divVerentand then you can insert it so that protective earth (case) is connected to live
19:08.32divVerentbecause some moron clipped it off and you didn't look?
19:08.42divVerentthis can't happen with schuko
19:09.08keriowhat if that moron connected the live wire to the ground part of the plug inside the wall?
19:09.12divVerentI quite like Schuko's principle that the protective earth is connected a LOT different from the prongs with actual current on them
19:09.23divVerentthat takes the moron a lot more work :)
19:10.31divVerenthttp://0.tqn.com/d/goitaly/1/0/X/4/-/-/plug-expander.jpg this one is neat
19:10.42divVerentwe have these in .ch too, but not as slim as this one
19:10.47divVerentthis shows what's good with the italian plug
19:11.57DocScrutinizer05safety standards: http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/c85e.pdf
19:12.50keriodivVerent: most of those have a shuko socket on the front and two normal sockets on the sides
19:13.01kerioi mean, nowadays
19:13.20DocScrutinizer05kerio: sth I found on several schuko outlets in Spain ;-P
19:13.38divVerentbut still... AC is better than DC, discuss
19:14.38divVerentmy argument to add to the AC vs DC trolling from old ages: AC is more dangerous, because if you take 230 V AC, a diode and a capacitor, you get 325 V
19:16.23DocScrutinizer05divVerent: is this how your lamp looks inside? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MKP_Capacitor_P10705333b.jpg#
19:17.07DocScrutinizer05actually DC is way more dangerous than AC
19:17.30*** join/#maemo bef0rd (~bef0rd@unaffiliated/beford)
19:17.43DocScrutinizer05since your nerves have no 100 opportunities per second to do sth to drop that wire, on DC
19:18.26DocScrutinizer05also AC tends to neutralize the electrolytic effects of previous half sine
19:19.05ShadowJKfinland and sweden have schuko + euro too
19:19.09DocScrutinizer05while with DC you get a bubble filled with O2 on one spot of your body, and a bubble filled with H2 on the other contact spot
19:19.22ShadowJKSome old outlets exist that look like schuko without grounding
19:20.09divVerentDocScrutinizer05: there are arguments against AC too
19:20.21divVerentDC's main issue is indeed the electrolysis
19:21.28DocScrutinizer05nah, it's scientifically and empirically proven that DC is doing more damage and is more dangerous than similar voltage AC
19:22.15DocScrutinizer05no electrician ever would test DC 22V with fingertip. Many do on AC 220V
19:22.22divVerentI read arguments for both sides...
19:22.30divVerentDC 22V? I would... but would not feel it anyway :)
19:22.31DocScrutinizer05s/22V/220V/
19:22.45ecc2gthey should use high frequency AC distribution, then it won't electrocute people, it would just fry their skin... (ok, that was intended to be a joke...)
19:22.47divVerentI consider testing AC 220V with fingertip insane too
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19:23.11divVerentI mean... do you always KNOW how well you are isolated?
19:23.11DocScrutinizer05sure
19:23.17divVerentstanding on iron ladder...
19:23.42divVerentsure, it is connected to nothing, but it increases the capacitance a lot
19:23.42DocScrutinizer05meh, I did it many time
19:23.51divVerentI felt 220V often enough, don't want to again
19:24.03DocScrutinizer05no worries about how well I'm isolated, except for flase negatives
19:24.07divVerentit's especially bad when not expecting it... e.g. when touching a NIC's back panel in a PC
19:24.13divVerentyes, really that happened to me before
19:24.27DocScrutinizer05:nod:
19:24.31divVerentthat PC then got moved to a new case and new power supply
19:24.46divVerentdidn't even bother to figure out what went wrong there... I am an IT guy, not an electrician
19:25.03divVerentbut having 220V on a touchable thing is BAD
19:25.05DocScrutinizer05flicking a copper end with fingertip isn't anything I'm particularly worried about
19:25.29divVerentsure, USUALLY, if you expect it, you can touch that and you won't e.g. fall down the ladder
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19:25.49divVerentoften the electric shock isn't that bad compared to the accident following after, e.g. falling off the ladder
19:26.06DocScrutinizer05leaning against that drill-hammer to drill a 45mm hole into that concrete wall, and then suddenly the case is live - that's sth you should worry about
19:26.22divVerentindeed
19:26.30divVerentbut that "can't happen" :)
19:26.54divVerentas in, THEORETICALLY there are spaces in walls where wires can be, and spaces where they can't be
19:27.11divVerentand there are testers for metal/AC voltage in walls (not perfect, obviously)
19:27.31divVerentthese testers may not be perfect, but if nothing else, they tell you how insane the guy wiring the house was
19:27.38DocScrutinizer05particularly the drill should usually either be PE or non-conductive
19:27.41divVerentspeaking of voltage... this touch-sensitive lamp BTW
19:27.50divVerentconnected multimeter between me and the lamp's metal surface
19:27.53divVerentmultimeter showed 180V
19:28.26DocScrutinizer05you can probe up to 500V from 2m dead end wire hanging in the air, that way
19:28.38divVerentDocScrutinizer05: AH, this is why my drilling machine uses the grounded plug :)
19:28.47divVerentnever thought about it from that perspective
19:30.02DocScrutinizer05actually I made LEDs shine from dead end 10m wire
19:30.07ShadowJKacts electrician at work from time to time and finds anything over 40V ac/dc scary to touch
19:30.24divVerenthow that? what voltage was on the wire?
19:30.29DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: it is
19:30.53divVerentor did you just amplify.. and amplify...
19:31.05divVerent42V is actually the limit in germany
19:31.10divVerentnot sure if inclusive or exclusive :)
19:31.17DocScrutinizer05I haven't tested that particular situation, but it been rather near to a railway line with electric power
19:32.41DocScrutinizer05icl/excl what?
19:32.57DocScrutinizer05it's 42Veff iirc
19:34.30DocScrutinizer05near high voltage powerlines you have field gradients like 10kV/m
19:35.29DocScrutinizer05a 10cm wire held in 1m above ground can give you 10kV via a virtual 0.1pF series or whatever
19:35.41divVerentso to make the LED shine, all you did was to bend the two wires away, holding one side, pointing other at the wire?
19:35.51divVerentfield is stonger near sharp tips, etc.
19:36.01DocScrutinizer05increasing the wire length (parallel to ground) just increases the virtual series capacitor
19:37.02divVerentactually, using a LED there is quite clever... they usually fail open
19:37.05DocScrutinizer05but indeed you can make CF-lamps glow under HV-lines, by simply holding them up into the air
19:37.14divVerentso if you just get SLIGHTLY too close, the LED goes dim and nothing happens to you
19:37.36divVerentjust don't think the LED is dark because you weren't close enough yet then :)
19:38.14divVerentissue: if the LED does fail, the current is usually above 50mA...
19:38.51DocScrutinizer05nah, simple test: open up your next wall mounted light switch. You most likely find a 3*1.5NYM used to contact it, where only L and N are connected to the switch. PE usually dead end on both ends
19:38.51divVerenthehe, CF-lamps... now THAT is energy saving
19:38.53divVerentnot connecting it
19:39.42divVerentbest way to save energy is using someone else's :)
19:40.21DocScrutinizer05contact PE with a LED voltage tester like http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LED_Spannungspruefer.JPG
19:40.39DocScrutinizer05touch a water tap with the other probe
19:40.55DocScrutinizer05you'll see one or two of the LEDs shine up
19:41.12divVerentyes, if the PEs on the switch are unconnected
19:41.17divVerentis that actually correct wiring to do that?
19:41.21DocScrutinizer05FL lamps, sorry
19:41.37DocScrutinizer05yes
19:41.56divVerentoh right
19:42.04divVerentthe PE wires typically pass by the switch
19:42.10divVerentso they are connected even if the switch is off
19:42.16divVerentbut the switch still pas pins for them
19:42.39divVerentso you test at the unused PE pins of the switch... indeed, against infinite resistance I would expect 110V on them
19:42.42DocScrutinizer05in a wall mounted light switch no PE contact even exists
19:43.41divVerentit is kinda a stupid idea to switch PE... so why are these 3x switches anyway?
19:43.44*** join/#maemo GogoPogo (~chatzilla@host74-224-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
19:43.53GogoPogohi everyone
19:44.42GogoPogowhere can I get the last vanilla image available? the only link I found doesn't work
19:44.51GogoPogohttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php
19:46.29PaliGogoPogo: http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/nokia_N900/
19:46.41GogoPogothank you
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19:49.39GogoPogois "latest version" a reliable statement on that mirror link as well?
19:51.46ShadowJKit's been valid for 3 years now or so
19:53.16GogoPogoRX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin should be the latest then
19:53.59ShadowJKthat's emmc image, you also want the other image
19:54.12GogoPogoyes
19:54.30DocScrutinizer05divVerent: there are no 3 switches, there's just a NYM cable with 3 wires: blue, black, and gree-yellow
19:54.34GogoPogoRX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM is the latest FIASCO, but it's not available on that link
19:54.53GogoPogodo you confirm?
19:55.04DocScrutinizer05GogoPogo: what doesn't work on http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php ?
19:55.16GogoPogoI get a blank page
19:55.33DocScrutinizer05DAMN!
19:55.58GogoPogoI double checked my script filters and so.. it just sends back a white page
19:56.01DocScrutinizer05anyway
19:56.05DocScrutinizer05~pr131
19:56.06infobotfrom memory, combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin  or  http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
19:56.40DocScrutinizer05GogoPogo: yes, it's obviously broken again
19:56.50GogoPogook great I have the latest then
19:56.59DocScrutinizer05nope, probably not
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19:57.23GogoPogoyes RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM
19:57.29DocScrutinizer05you probably have pr13
19:57.39DocScrutinizer05wow
19:58.16DocScrutinizer05then yes, you have the newest latest :-)
19:58.27*** join/#maemo bef0rd_ (~bef0rd@186.154.189.140)
19:58.31GogoPogo\m/
19:59.35DocScrutinizer05the latest 'official' is pr1.3 aka 20.2010.36-2 or sth like that
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20:00.52DocScrutinizer05http://tabletsdev.maemo.org/ is an alternative source for  http://tablets-dev.nokia
20:01.02GogoPogothanks guys, I have to wait for the vanilla download to complete now
20:01.49GogoPogonokia domani, + 2 mirrors, + cloud-7?
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20:05.38DocScrutinizer05hmm?
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20:06.58PaliDocScrutinizer05: not 21.2010 but 21.2011...
20:06.58Paliis last
20:07.03DocScrutinizer05http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php *should* work, but obviously it doesn't today (yesterday it did)
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20:07.43DocScrutinizer05http://tabletsdev.maemo.org/ is an alternative source, skeiron is a fallback if neither works.
20:07.44*** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian)
20:08.12DocScrutinizer05cloud-7 only has the pr131 which none of the "official" sources has
20:08.24DocScrutinizer05Pali: :nod:
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20:10.53DocScrutinizer05Pali: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is latest official though
20:11.34Paliok, official on maemo is only 20.2010, but official in pc suite is 21.2011
20:12.07*** join/#maemo totalizator (~totalizat@89-79-239-132.dynamic.chello.pl)
20:12.31DocScrutinizer05no, since pc suite itself is... a POS and nothing official in my book
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20:13.13DocScrutinizer05since GogoPogo asked for download links, PC suite is probably irrelevant anyway
20:13.51DocScrutinizer05that's why I pointed him to
20:13.54DocScrutinizer05~pr131
20:13.54infoboti guess combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin  or  http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
20:14.10DocScrutinizer05the second link in there is what PC suite probably uses
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20:44.00DocScrutinizer05anyway, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php works again
20:55.49*** join/#maemo Mike11 (~Mike@5.0.63.74)
20:56.40Mike11hey everybody :)
20:56.58Mike11I bought an old n900 a few days ago
20:57.30Mike11it says "all telephony functions are disabled due to . . ."
20:57.35Mike11when booting
20:57.52Mike11when I dial *#06# it gives me no imei
20:58.56Mike11I tried reflashing the device (both Vanilla and combined), but it says at the end CMT flashing failed
20:59.57Mike11when searching for that on google, I found some people reporting the cmt flashing issue but with "erasing cmt " twice failing before it fails
21:00.08Mike11In my case it does not say that
21:00.33Mike11so what does that mean???? please help me :)
21:01.31DocScrutinizer05Mike11: alas that's a hw defect
21:01.33SpeedEvilit is likely you have a hardware failure
21:01.58Mike11do u think it can be fixed in Nokia care?
21:01.59*** join/#maemo bef0rd (~bef0rd@unaffiliated/beford)
21:02.04DocScrutinizer05hardly
21:02.16jaskathey wont bother doing anything to n900s even if you had warranty
21:02.23DocScrutinizer05SpeedEvil: do you have a link to springfix?
21:02.31SpeedEvilno
21:02.35SpeedEvilalas not
21:02.55Mike11I heard about some people putting papers under the battery
21:03.00DocScrutinizer05Mike11: the modem chips probably have defect solder points on BGA
21:03.08*** join/#maemo RoDi (~DaRoDi@109.88.64.137)
21:03.11DocScrutinizer05paper under battery hardly helps
21:03.34Mike11sorry for my ignorance but what is BGA?? :)
21:03.47DocScrutinizer05opening device and placing springs or elastic foam or whatever on top of the chips is reported to help
21:03.58DocScrutinizer05ball grid array
21:04.34Mike11are the springs just to push the chips on each other??
21:04.38DocScrutinizer05chips that have a lot of solder balls on the bottom side
21:04.52DocScrutinizer05push chip on circuit board
21:05.06Mike11or they have other electrical function??
21:06.04*** join/#maemo frafl (~Thunderbi@e178070072.adsl.alicedsl.de)
21:06.10Mike11do u think I can do it by myself???, I am afraid of breaking the whole device :(
21:06.16Mike11and thanks for ur help :)
21:07.20Mike11DocScrutinizer05
21:07.57DocScrutinizer05Mike11: it's a demanding mechanical rework
21:08.17*** part/#maemo frafl (~Thunderbi@e178070072.adsl.alicedsl.de)
21:08.26Mike11thanks for ur help :)
21:08.32DocScrutinizer05you should be familiar with working on delicate electronic devices
21:08.51Mike11just to be sure, then the IMEI is still stored safely
21:08.58Mike11no need to change it then??
21:09.11Mike11unfortunately I am not :(
21:09.12DocScrutinizer05no need to change (btw you can't afaik)
21:09.39Mike11very thanks for ur help :D
21:09.44DocScrutinizer05yw
21:10.56SpeedEvilhttp://dx.com/p/n900-gsm-projector-tv-touch-phone-w-3-1-resistive-screen-dual-sim-quadband-and-fm-black-107462
21:10.58SpeedEvilhah
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21:19.58DocScrutinizer05hah indeed
21:20.23DocScrutinizer05they're marketing this dualsim crappy chipset to death
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21:20.59DocScrutinizer05GSM only
21:21.22DocScrutinizer05OS: proprietary (no smartphone) HAHA
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23:37.09OpenSpacehello all, my system crashes and phone reboots when copying large or many files over ssh, any idea why?
23:37.49rikaneeOpenSpace: swap hell leading to watchdog timeouts
23:38.19OpenSpacewhat can I do about it?
23:38.50rikaneetweak maemo, swap on SD, tweak swappiness, tweak VM settings, etc.
23:38.56freemangordon:nod:
23:39.26freemangordontweak your nr_requests (google for it)
23:39.46OpenSpaceok, I'll try
23:39.54OpenSpacethanks
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