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| 06:27.41 | Apic | A wonderful splendid Boomtime to You all. |
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| 06:39.06 | XATRIX | Hi guys, how can i tell HAM, not to check for updates, everytime i connect any GSM/Wi-fi network ? |
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| 06:39.22 | XATRIX | I need it to check it manually , only when i press "check for updates" |
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| 09:02.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a wiki page "maemo customization" OWTTE |
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| 09:08.45 | tadzik | hello #maemo |
| 09:09.10 | tadzik | I just flashed a "new" n900, installed cssu-t and thumb, and I don't see the extras repo anywhere in HAM, does that sound familiar? |
| 09:15.59 | XATRIX | DocScrutinizer05: gconftool -s --type int /apps/hildon/update-notifier/check_interval NEW_VALUE ? |
| 09:16.40 | tadzik | oh, right, that's important |
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| 09:25.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | XATRIX: yes |
| 09:28.56 | XATRIX | DocScrutinizer05: is it ok ? |
| 09:29.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 09:29.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't go to extremes with NEW_VALUE |
| 09:29.18 | XATRIX | <entry name="blink-after" mtime="1362399756" type="int" value="1440"/> |
| 09:29.19 | XATRIX | <entry name="check_interval" mtime="1362331808" type="int" value="2628000"/> |
| 09:30.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | something equivalent to one year should be more than sufficient |
| 09:31.59 | XATRIX | what about 'blink-after' ? |
| 09:32.06 | XATRIX | Should i set it equal to ? |
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| 09:35.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, that's completely irrelevant |
| 09:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik it says when blinking shall stop and go to steady signal |
| 09:36.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | you want blinking never to start |
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| 09:37.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably setting blink-after set to 20 would save about 20mAh per year, if update checks weren't diabled anyway |
| 09:38.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | make an icon flash/blink costs some CPU cycles |
| 09:38.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess that's why Nokia decided to switch to steady after 1440 seconds (minutes?) |
| 09:38.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | for sure seconds |
| 09:42.25 | jaska | it also consumes brain cycles seeing it blink |
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| 09:58.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe right |
| 09:58.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the tmo thread somebody claims there was a way to stop update checks completely in HAM red pill mode settings menu - I can't find such option |
| 09:59.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a good feature request for CSSU HAM? |
| 09:59.27 | tadzik | uhh. Where did "" |
| 09:59.32 | tadzik | .."Mac OS" directory come from? |
| 09:59.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | been always there |
| 09:59.58 | tadzik | really? I don't recall this on my previous device |
| 10:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and before you ask: yes you can delete it but it's not really recommended since it's tiny and might eventually be useful |
| 10:00.27 | tadzik | sure |
| 10:03.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | """"'"'"'' " '"' ''"''' ' ' ' " ' |
| 10:03.19 | XATRIX | I think when i press Reload button on system menu, it simply resets the device, like if i press ALT+SysRq |
| 10:03.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | err sorry |
| 10:03.31 | XATRIX | can i configure it to do "#reboot" ? |
| 10:03.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | reload button? |
| 10:04.10 | XATRIX | Yea |
| 10:04.39 | XATRIX | I enabled it in systemui |
| 10:04.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | tries to recall any reload button anywhere |
| 10:07.07 | XATRIX | Arrgh... it's not enabled by default |
| 10:07.21 | XATRIX | Press your "Power button" you'll see Shutdown there |
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| 10:07.46 | XATRIX | If you enable Restart/Reload button inside the systemui.xml |
| 10:07.53 | XATRIX | You'll be able to use it |
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| 10:28.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | (re update) useful: alarmclient -L |
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| 11:14.00 | tadzik | hm. Is changing the ordering of icons in app menu supposed to Just Work? |
| 11:14.22 | tadzik | here I was able to reorder things not the way I wanted, and now it's stuck that way. Maybe it's because of catorise :/ |
| 11:16.00 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: I now got AutoDisconnect properly uninstalled... or rather |
| 11:16.06 | divVerent | I see no issues even after reboot |
| 11:16.18 | divVerent | I did make sure to first set AD to be "never" active, and reconnected WLAN, before uninstalling it |
| 11:16.51 | divVerent | also, I used dpkg --purge to deinstall, not dpkg -r, if that matters |
| 11:17.35 | divVerent | (the steps before uninstalling served to make as many as AD's potential changes undone) |
| 11:18.02 | divVerent | as for people whose system got screwed up by AD, wouldn't reinstalling AD have helped? |
| 11:18.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | tadzik: moving icons in app menu with apmefo installed just breaks about everything, I guess for catorise it's the same. apmefo at least has a generic way to move icons in (sub)menus |
| 11:19.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: unclear |
| 11:19.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never touched it (for obvious reasons) so never investigated |
| 11:20.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: many thanks for the update on how to cleanly uninstall |
| 11:20.34 | divVerent | well, it was merely common sense to uninstall this way... worked for me, but no guarantee for others |
| 11:20.44 | divVerent | I did it with having a backup of / made before, though |
| 11:20.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 11:21.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: you checked your extras access? |
| 11:21.13 | divVerent | now designing my autodisconnect logic I actually want... basically "no GPRS when locked" will do for me |
| 11:21.20 | divVerent | no, still have no SDK running anywhere |
| 11:21.31 | divVerent | if only I could create a package any other way... |
| 11:21.46 | divVerent | actually... is it very evil to try to upload packages "blindly"? |
| 11:21.56 | divVerent | i.e. take original debian sources, modify without test building, then uploading that? |
| 11:22.07 | divVerent | and then "seeing if the build server succeeds" |
| 11:23.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think that's exactly what this pypackager (or what's the name) is meant for |
| 11:23.55 | tadzik | DocScrutinizer05: apmefo? |
| 11:26.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | the better catorize |
| 11:26.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | UI a tad clumsy, but 'just works' |
| 11:29.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tested catorize, thought "SCREW DAT! WTF is calculator under system?" or sth like that, cursed it for not allowing to sort stuff your own way, and thankfully dumped it for apmefo when that came out |
| 11:29.11 | tadzik | I see. Catorise plus just worked for me usually, but now I tried to reorder stuff and shit hit the fan |
| 11:29.51 | tadzik | I tried looking at xmls in /etc/xdg-something, but they either look fine or have no effect on the ordering whatsoever |
| 11:29.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | dragging icons in appstarter is a HD thing that doesn't know of the tweaks done by any such stuff like catorize/apmefo |
| 11:30.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so dragging icons is forbidden when you have submenus |
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| 11:31.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | either your catorize/apmefo/whatever offers a generic method to do icon sorting, or you're screwed |
| 11:31.21 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: pypackager is somewhat... odd to use for binaries though :) |
| 11:31.33 | tadzik | apparently. Let's see if reinstalling catorise changes anything |
| 11:33.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for apmefo it helps to edit and safe the config |
| 11:34.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno if cacorise even has such thing like "edit" |
| 11:35.01 | tadzik | catoriseplus doea |
| 11:35.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | apmefo rewrites all the xml HD files according to own internal config, when you edit&save it |
| 11:35.46 | tadzik | I'll try it |
| 11:36.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/apmefo/ |
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| 11:40.22 | tadzik | it seems that I have to arrange everything manually with that, no? |
| 11:42.31 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: is there a way to find out which packages the build server has? e.g. if "po4a" exists |
| 11:42.41 | divVerent | it is a build dependency of deborphan, but I could patch around if it needed |
| 11:43.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr |
| 11:43.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what SDK is meant for |
| 11:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, SDK is meant to provide that (among other purposes of SDK) |
| 11:44.36 | divVerent | yes, but I would have to wait one or two weeks till I can use the SDK again |
| 11:44.44 | divVerent | it sucks to be constrained by a Celeron 630 and 4G HDD |
| 11:45.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure it does. scratchbox alone is 5GB iirc |
| 11:45.33 | divVerent | that's why I wanted to ask how much damage I do if I upload a package of which I don't know if it will build properly or not |
| 11:45.46 | divVerent | if it's ok to do this, I'd just try it and see what happens |
| 11:45.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally buold should just fail |
| 11:46.03 | divVerent | and would I get an error message or just a generic "build failed" |
| 11:46.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | throw error and send a mail to you |
| 11:46.23 | divVerent | po4a is used for i18n stuff in deborphan, I could patch i18n out if needed |
| 11:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | on web you can access the logs |
| 11:47.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I never really used autobuilder, so no expert here |
| 11:48.07 | divVerent | hehe, patching out the po4a use is trivial :) |
| 11:48.12 | divVerent | removing doc from SUBDIRS = |
| 11:48.17 | divVerent | as doc is removed ANYWAY... |
| 11:48.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 11:48.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | though i *hate* that detail |
| 11:48.52 | divVerent | so if I patch this out right, the .deb won't contain the doc in the first placre |
| 11:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | never got the reasoning behind docpurge on a system with 100 times the storage of my first linux system that had proper full manpages |
| 11:50.37 | divVerent | it makes the flash images illegal |
| 11:50.39 | divVerent | that is the point :) |
| 11:50.55 | divVerent | (as it gets rid of possibly required license documents) |
| 11:51.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | SEE ALSO |
| 11:51.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:51.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# man alarmd |
| 11:51.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | No manual entry for alarmd |
| 11:51.11 | divVerent | right |
| 11:51.19 | divVerent | at least the manpages could have been kept |
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| 11:52.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: (illegal) HAHAHARRHARRRHRRR gooooood point! why didn't you come up with that in 2009? |
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| 11:53.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSCK docpurge! |
| 11:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ alarmclient --help; if you're wondering |
| 11:55.13 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: I had no N900 in 2009 :) |
| 11:55.24 | divVerent | and I do somewhat see the point of docpurge... some packages are bigger in doc than in content |
| 11:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | great pun! google for "man alarmd" to see how good |
| 11:56.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, for a distro maintainer who prefers messybox over proper unix shells&tools, this might actually be an issue |
| 11:57.13 | divVerent | I recently had namcap complain on an arch linux package I made |
| 11:57.18 | divVerent | that the doc part is bigger than the rest |
| 11:57.20 | divVerent | cause: LOTS of pngs |
| 11:57.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | for a distro maintainer maintaining a distro meant exclusively for a target platform that has 32GB(!) storage, it's so utterly silly though |
| 11:57.50 | divVerent | no, I want to use the 32GB |
| 11:57.57 | divVerent | I actually like the N900's partitioning |
| 11:58.01 | divVerent | and would not want to waste an extra G for the OS |
| 11:58.11 | divVerent | having said that - / and /home just never gets full anyway |
| 11:58.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? you're free to purge the manpages any time |
| 11:58.33 | divVerent | better idea - linking manpages to MyDocs :) |
| 11:58.36 | divVerent | then anyone can delete them |
| 11:58.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 11:59.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, back in PR1.0 times, they had not even any /opt |
| 11:59.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they thought they should fit everything into the 240MB of NAND |
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| 11:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and thus docpurge might have made sense, for histerical raisins |
| 12:01.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | however what *really* sucks is that it seems mandb-n900 pkg also lacking those fremantle-specific manpages like alarmd(8) |
| 12:01.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I really wonder where to find that alarmd(8) page, when even aunt google fails |
| 12:03.43 | divVerent | ok, deborphan uploaded now... let's see what happens |
| 12:03.58 | divVerent | BTW, by what I did, I only removed the manpages, but not the other docs... weird |
| 12:04.05 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 12:04.06 | divVerent | but deborphan needs no manpages anyway, --help is sufficient |
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| 12:05.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo autostart is /etc/X11/Xsession.d/* |
| 12:05.04 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
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| 12:23.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | (http://maemo.org/packages/view/nelisquare/) hmmm, seems the 0.5.0 version somehow forgot it consists of a i386 as well as an armel |
| 12:30.02 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: ah, interesting :) as for autostart |
| 12:37.28 | GogoPogo | hello |
| 12:38.17 | GogoPogo | I'm wondering... according to the flashing guide there may be issues with win 64bit editions |
| 12:38.38 | GogoPogo | does it mean linux 64bit may have issues as well? |
| 12:39.03 | GogoPogo | I have plenty of linux distros to use for this operation but most of them are 64bit |
| 12:39.57 | GogoPogo | and only windows 7 64bit otherwise.. |
| 12:40.30 | divVerent | looks like my deborphan build worked |
| 12:41.04 | divVerent | GogoPogo: yes, there can be issues on linux 64bit, from how I read it |
| 12:41.07 | divVerent | I did it anyway and it worked |
| 12:41.12 | GogoPogo | I may use virtualbox as well, but I'm not sure I can get the usb connection to work inside the virtualmachine as well.. I always get some error.. |
| 12:41.15 | divVerent | just be prepared - if your N900 gets "bricked" and you see no way out |
| 12:41.21 | divVerent | try booting Ubuntu 32bit live CD and flash from there |
| 12:41.24 | divVerent | as a last resort |
| 12:41.27 | divVerent | no, do not use a VM for that |
| 12:41.35 | GogoPogo | ok |
| 12:41.51 | divVerent | also, you better have a backup of the device anyway |
| 12:41.58 | divVerent | flashing eMMC erases MyDocs, AFAIK |
| 12:42.11 | GogoPogo | old linux distros I still have around come with 32bit architecture... too old maybe?? |
| 12:42.22 | divVerent | ubuntu live cd should work |
| 12:42.26 | divVerent | but try your 64bit distro first |
| 12:42.49 | GogoPogo | I still have to understand if I have to flash combined + vanilla right after, or the contrary |
| 12:43.01 | divVerent | both work, but have different caveats from how I read |
| 12:43.18 | divVerent | follow the current docs exactly as written |
| 12:43.32 | divVerent | there is both kinds of instructions, both work, if you make sure you do nothing weird |
| 12:43.39 | divVerent | the biggest issue is if you flash emmc only, the device won't boot any more |
| 12:44.00 | divVerent | but that is then fixable by flashing the other part, AND emmc again |
| 12:44.52 | divVerent | so I suggest to just take whichever docs you find next, and follow them to the letter. That will work. |
| 12:46.08 | GogoPogo | mmm... ok! I really hope I'm not going to brick my phone, even if Doc said to me N900 is almost unbrickable |
| 12:46.52 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: N900 (with working USB) is unbrickable |
| 12:47.13 | GogoPogo | good to know.. |
| 12:49.41 | *** join/#maemo valerius (~user@95.153.164.145) |
| 12:54.14 | GogoPogo | a question I have is.. will I be automatically re-signed up to MyNokia once rebooting? |
| 12:54.22 | GogoPogo | I really hope not |
| 12:55.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: finally register with nickserv please! |
| 12:55.42 | GogoPogo | I 'm not willing to share my SIM contract data with Nokia at all, and they surely store some even after unsubscription. I had to e-mail Nokia the first time this happened. |
| 12:56.09 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: will do when have some spare tme |
| 12:56.13 | freemangordon | *time |
| 12:56.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | it takes 30s |
| 12:56.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | /msg nickserv help register |
| 12:56.34 | freemangordon | sure, but I won't do it over RD over gprs ;) |
| 12:56.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | /msg NickServ REGISTER bar foo@bar.com |
| 12:57.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Syntax: REGISTER <password> <email-address> |
| 12:58.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks! |
| 12:59.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | you now have to answer verification mail |
| 12:59.16 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: where do you see that? |
| 12:59.22 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: i did it |
| 12:59.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | /ns info freemangordon |
| 13:00.04 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: now I am registered, anything else I need to do? |
| 13:00.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | /ns info freemangordon |
| 13:00.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops |
| 13:00.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | /ns id <password> |
| 13:01.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks fine to me |
| 13:01.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-05-27 15:01:10] [Whois] freemangordon is logged in as freemangordon. |
| 13:02.56 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: "##maemo-admin Cannot join channel (+i) - you must be invited" |
| 13:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | retry |
| 13:03.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just fixed it |
| 13:10.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | this: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/04devlock-blocker *might* be interesting for some |
| 13:11.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | to break devlock, it should suffice to remove that file via rescueOS |
| 13:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | to lock file you might start that executable called in that file (though there are other - dbus-based - methods for that iirc) |
| 13:12.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/file/device/ |
| 13:13.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | similar: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/05connui-conndlgs-cellular -> /usr/bin/startup-pin-query |
| 13:15.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | very educative: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/10hildon_welcome |
| 13:16.01 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 13:19.14 | jonwil | hi |
| 13:24.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi jonwil, long time no see |
| 13:25.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:25.20 | jonwil | yeawh |
| 13:25.30 | jonwil | wonders whats new in the community these days |
| 13:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, a lot of mess |
| 13:25.59 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178231172.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:25.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and worries, with infra |
| 13:26.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | and with elections, and whatnot |
| 13:28.38 | *** join/#maemo fastlane` (~weezy@115.186.66.7) |
| 13:34.30 | *** join/#maemo mike__ (~mike@host-2-97-29-154.as13285.net) |
| 13:34.35 | *** join/#maemo SmilyOrg (Smily@BSN-176-182-173.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 13:36.07 | mike__ | hello,got a strange problem,my n900's imei is blank and can't connect to any network |
| 13:36.12 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 13:42.55 | GogoPogo | mmm... I can't complete my backup with PC Suite... at some stage of the copy it loses the connection with the phone. Ever happened to you? |
| 13:45.51 | *** join/#maemo MohammadAG_ (~MohammadA@Maemo/community/contributor/MohammadAG) |
| 13:50.02 | *** join/#maemo heroux (~heroux@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) |
| 14:00.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG: http://mywiki.wooledge.org/ParsingLs |
| 14:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | mike__: that's bad |
| 14:02.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | mike__: might be modem chip hw error. Try removing battery, removing SIM, insert battery again, and test again |
| 14:03.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | mike__: try cmd "pnatd" and see if modem answers to "AT<enter>" |
| 14:04.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | (to stop pnatd you either close the shell or killall pnatd from a second shell) |
| 14:07.04 | *** join/#maemo VDVsx (~VDVsx@a88-114-88-95.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 14:11.32 | mike__ | thank you! |
| 14:12.57 | mike__ | if it is the radio,is it repairable? |
| 14:21.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's that hack with springs inside the cans, which is the only thing that *might* help (if you don't consider reflow of the chips) |
| 14:22.09 | mike__ | is reflowing a temporary or a final solution? |
| 14:23.11 | rikanee | mike__: it's most likely permanent, considering how 90% of N900 failures can be attributed to cold solder |
| 14:23.44 | mike__ | great :) |
| 14:24.36 | *** join/#maemo konelix (~konelix@190.143.170.64) |
| 14:24.38 | mike__ | is it possible to do with a soldering station,or a rework station is essential? |
| 14:24.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | good question |
| 14:24.52 | rikanee | mike__: hot air evenly around the board may be enough |
| 14:25.35 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: it'd be a bad idea to simply aim a hot air gun on the board, right? |
| 14:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd suggest preheating the whole board in oven to ~80°C, then hotair gun to the chips in question |
| 14:26.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | where "hot air" is a proper reflow station, nit a monster looking like a hairdryer |
| 14:26.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | not* |
| 14:26.34 | mike__ | what about to apply some flux with soldering tip? |
| 14:26.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | chops are BGA |
| 14:26.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | chips, dang |
| 14:27.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is part of the problem |
| 14:29.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | frowns at http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1346993&postcount=1225 |
| 14:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | wonders why he bothers at all to answer |
| 14:30.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>I think freemangordon should not try to pester that lady via skype without prior email giving better info about what "we" are and what's our "project" and waiting for the (unlikely) invitation form Anne COUVIDAT to give her a call. To her freemangordon calling is similar to a video-club giving you a phonecall trying to convince you to become a member.<< |
| 14:30.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | tl;dr? |
| 14:33.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | mike__: you want to get the schematics (with component placement pics), and my highres scans of PCBA and PCB on maemo.cloud-7.de/N900-gallery |
| 14:33.13 | *** join/#maemo luke-jr_ (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr) |
| 14:33.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~schematics |
| 14:33.28 | infobot | i guess schematics is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic |
| 14:33.37 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: HiFo has enough cash to buy IP? |
| 14:33.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | pfff |
| 14:33.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry |
| 14:34.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's outright ridiculous |
| 14:34.25 | rikanee | yeah, there's no way they're just going to hand out the video decoder. |
| 14:34.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | even IF they buy the IP, they may not share it to any community member with sufficient knowledge to do sth with it |
| 14:34.49 | jonwil | what video decoder is this people are talking about? |
| 14:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | silly 720p |
| 14:35.03 | rikanee | jonwil: 720p codecs, episode 9 |
| 14:35.10 | jonwil | oh ok |
| 14:36.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | look, those ittiami (or whatever) guys *might* hand out the IP even without charge, but only under strict NDA and for sure not to a group of "3 stooges" like HiFo |
| 14:37.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, until now HiFo not even been able to negotiate and sign contracts with Nokia |
| 14:38.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm 99.9% sure that's not Nokia's fault |
| 14:39.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | if somebody wants that 720p codec so badly, why not ask those guys to sell it to *him*? |
| 14:40.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I for one don't need such 720p |
| 14:40.48 | *** join/#maemo sLumPia (~sLumPia@39.219.123.112) |
| 14:41.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd be really puzzled when HiFo would decide they want to waste a few kilobucks on such peripheral feature, while more pressing stuff around maemo.org infra at large gets neglected |
| 14:42.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, we probably could get a fulltime sysop paid for one year instead that 720p stuff |
| 14:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | anticipates whining "Now we have that awesome leete pretty 720p, and masterhacker can't build the gstreamer plugin since autobuilder is fsckdup" |
| 14:45.23 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: that'll just entice someone to make HDPatch.sh, and distribute it via Rapidshare, through Adf.ly links. |
| 14:45.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | great |
| 14:48.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | while I pull my hair about stuff like http://maemo.org/packages/view/pierogi/ |
| 14:52.01 | *** join/#maemo Guest36392 (~NIT@74.61.223.51) |
| 14:53.34 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 14:56.52 | *** join/#maemo at1as (~at1as@kurios.r4780y.com) |
| 14:57.39 | jonwil | I for one can think of far more useful things for Maemo than 720p video decode |
| 14:59.15 | *** join/#maemo mlong (~mlong@ip98-178-173-137.tu.ok.cox.net) |
| 15:00.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 15:01.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly given the fact that not even AV-out can actually do 720 |
| 15:01.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 15:02.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what for we need it anyway? |
| 15:02.17 | jonwil | like a better conversations app without the annoying scrolling issue I keep bumping into |
| 15:02.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc the screen of N900 is 800*480 |
| 15:02.42 | jonwil | where it will randomly scroll to the start of the conversation for no reason |
| 15:02.54 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: simple: to avoid re-encoding videos |
| 15:02.56 | peetah | hi, apart from iptables, is there a simple way to forbid any data transfer when the n900 is connected to my provider MMS APN ? |
| 15:03.07 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: but, there is more to be done for that... |
| 15:03.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | peetah: ? |
| 15:03.43 | peetah | by any, I mean other than data targeted to the MMS access point |
| 15:03.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 15:04.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask frals |
| 15:04.28 | divVerent | hm... gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg is installed, yet I cannot play .ape music files |
| 15:04.36 | divVerent | where to fix? |
| 15:04.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc |
| 15:05.03 | peetah | DocScrutinizer05: ok thuttu77 |
| 15:05.06 | jonwil | it would also be nice to have some new games to play on the N900 that are actually a good fit for mobile devices and not just a port of some desktop game that doesn't fit well in a touchscreen environment |
| 15:05.13 | peetah | DocScrutinizer05: ok thanks (sorry) |
| 15:05.32 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: renaming file from .ape to .ogg fixes it |
| 15:05.39 | divVerent | so, where are the file type assocations? :) |
| 15:06.00 | divVerent | (this works because ffmpeg doesn't care for the extension at all - it always probes) |
| 15:06.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | peetah: I don't know if MMS APN IF is supposed to get used by anything except fmms anyway |
| 15:06.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: haha |
| 15:06.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | so probably an issue of minetypes? |
| 15:07.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | check mediaplayer .desktop! |
| 15:07.25 | peetah | when the only connection available is MMS APN, and modest or telepathy starts looking for mail or xmmp account, won't they try to use this connection ? |
| 15:07.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends on route |
| 15:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and whatnot else |
| 15:08.14 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: ok, know where to look then |
| 15:08.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g no maemo app is using USB network connection per default |
| 15:08.24 | divVerent | also, it probably is a bug of the gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg package... |
| 15:08.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, might not ship a comprehensive set of mimetypes |
| 15:09.01 | divVerent | no, no bug in that package |
| 15:09.07 | divVerent | it has no mimetypes at all shipped... these go elsewhere |
| 15:09.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 15:09.36 | divVerent | it's the original debian gstreamer ffmpeg package, why should it ship mimetypes? |
| 15:10.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, the original pkg probably doesn't work too well on maemo anyway |
| 15:10.07 | divVerent | BTW, .ape decoding is... somewhat broken |
| 15:10.15 | divVerent | it barely works on non overclocked CPU |
| 15:10.20 | divVerent | do ANYTHING, and it stutters |
| 15:10.33 | divVerent | didn't know .ape was that CPU intense |
| 15:10.57 | divVerent | so... I take back anything I said, and will NOT suggest adding the mime type |
| 15:11.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 15:11.15 | divVerent | renaming hack is good enough for me |
| 15:11.48 | divVerent | also, this CD sucks anyway :) |
| 15:12.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah |
| 15:13.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDzUG-bno6Q |
| 15:24.38 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: haha, this is SO pointless |
| 15:24.55 | divVerent | as if ANY N900 could reach the end of a DVD on battery |
| 15:25.12 | divVerent | hostmode after all means the USB port is taken, and can't be used for the charger |
| 15:25.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~hostmode-powered |
| 15:25.33 | infobot | from memory, hostmode-powered is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=921203#post921203 |
| 15:26.28 | divVerent | haha, insane |
| 15:28.04 | *** join/#maemo sunny_s (~sunny_s@business-092-079-020-027.static.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:29.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | insane??? |
| 15:29.51 | divVerent | yes, but I can see that it would work |
| 15:30.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | N900 USB is insane, H-E-N hacks been my best contribution to maemo ever |
| 15:30.36 | divVerent | yes, doing hostmode on the N900 is already insane enough :) |
| 15:30.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | a lot of people like USB hostmode in N900 |
| 15:30.48 | divVerent | is is an interesting feature, but the N900 clearly was not made for it |
| 15:31.05 | divVerent | making it even more interesting that it works at all |
| 15:31.53 | divVerent | of course, this USB cable is dangerous... but that's a different story :) |
| 15:32.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, took me only ~6 months of investigations and developing to make it work |
| 15:32.11 | divVerent | basically, an A-A cable is something that should never have been made... but it has |
| 15:32.42 | divVerent | yes... it is a cool feature to have, but it's the kind of thing I'd never do |
| 15:32.49 | divVerent | the cables alone are enough for me to object to |
| 15:33.08 | divVerent | even though the N900 does not power the port (so in the speciifc case of the N900 the "danger" part does not exist) |
| 15:33.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | err wut? |
| 15:33.33 | divVerent | or is it able to also power the USB port? |
| 15:33.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 15:33.44 | divVerent | the "danger" is when you accidentally use hostmode, AND are connected to a PC |
| 15:33.50 | divVerent | two USB hosts is normally no big deal |
| 15:33.58 | divVerent | but if both try to power the bus, that can get dangerous |
| 15:34.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd more think it gets dangerous when one of them is *not* powering the VBUS lines |
| 15:34.41 | divVerent | so in a "proper" world, hostmode should require special host side connectors, and not abusing a USB device socket for host |
| 15:35.17 | divVerent | that's also how USB was designed to avoid this issue |
| 15:35.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why N900 officially can't support hostmode or OTG, it has a USB-micro-b receptacle |
| 15:36.03 | divVerent | and I have seen the same hack on Android devices... and hate it equally there |
| 15:36.14 | divVerent | to me it looks as bad as an AC plug-AC plug adaptor |
| 15:36.26 | divVerent | (that one admittedly is a lot MORE dangerous) |
| 15:36.57 | divVerent | and no, please don't find a google images link where someone has actually made this adaptor I DON'T WANT TO SEE IT :) |
| 15:38.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 15:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | your argumentation isn't based on good facts |
| 15:38.57 | *** join/#maemo konelix (~konelix@190.143.170.91) |
| 15:39.25 | divVerent | it is, you just can't have two power sources on the same bus... unless the bus/the devices are designed for it |
| 15:39.30 | divVerent | in case of USB that is not the case |
| 15:39.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | connecting two USB-hosts together first instance does nothing at all |
| 15:39.49 | divVerent | apart from the power issue |
| 15:40.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | what power issue? |
| 15:40.22 | divVerent | the devices may disagree on their definition of GND :) |
| 15:40.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 15:40.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | not more than any other two sevices |
| 15:40.50 | divVerent | also, they may simply not be build to expect another device already powering the bus, possibly causing harm |
| 15:41.36 | divVerent | basically, the circuits are "allowed" by the standard to take damage if there is already a higher voltage on the bus than what they would provide... and be it 5.1 V vs 4.9 V |
| 15:41.50 | divVerent | and I really don't trust PC motherboards more than I can throw them |
| 15:42.08 | *** join/#maemo Guest36392 (~NIT@74.61.223.51) |
| 15:42.28 | divVerent | e.g. assume the voltage regulator tries to short any excess voltage (like a zener diode does) |
| 15:43.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 15:43.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't argue with an EE ;-) |
| 15:43.56 | divVerent | e.g. assume the voltage regulator tries to short any excess voltage (like a zener diode does) |
| 15:44.00 | divVerent | sorry |
| 15:44.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | the only "dangerous" case I could think of is plugging a powered host to a PC that's off |
| 15:44.04 | divVerent | thing is, ARE normal conforming USB host sockets designed to deal with that kind of abuse, or not? |
| 15:44.11 | divVerent | yes, that can be even worse |
| 15:44.16 | divVerent | if it then shorts the pins (which it may |
| 15:44.18 | divVerent | ) |
| 15:44.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | short is no problem at all |
| 15:44.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB is short-resilient |
| 15:44.53 | divVerent | haha |
| 15:44.56 | divVerent | I've seen the opposite |
| 15:45.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | N900 *is* |
| 15:45.10 | divVerent | someone forcing a USB plug in the wrong way round, even causing a spark and reboot of the system |
| 15:45.13 | divVerent | (but the USB device survived) |
| 15:45.20 | divVerent | the N900 side I trust a lot more here :) |
| 15:45.27 | divVerent | I mean, there is only so much current the battery can yield |
| 15:45.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | the battery? |
| 15:46.01 | divVerent | where else should the N900 get the current from when it powers the port? |
| 15:46.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | from mars? |
| 15:46.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
| 15:46.16 | divVerent | that could work |
| 15:46.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | battery is 3.7V, USB is 5.0V |
| 15:46.45 | divVerent | yes |
| 15:46.50 | divVerent | voltage convertors exist |
| 15:46.59 | divVerent | thing is, if the N900 is in host mode AND powers the port on its own, shorting the pins there should still be pretty safe, mainly because the current is at the very least limited by what the battery can do |
| 15:47.00 | *** join/#maemo dos11 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 15:47.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk |
| 15:47.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | too silly discussion |
| 15:47.46 | divVerent | well, you said the N900 can power the port, so I assumed a voltage up-convertor somewhere inside |
| 15:50.50 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD28AB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:51.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you think this step-up converter was designed in a way so it could blow the overcurrent protection in battery? |
| 15:51.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like a pretty poor design |
| 15:52.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | bq24150 in boost mode can provide 200mA@5V, then overload protection kicks in and it throws error on status |
| 15:52.56 | peetah | frals: several questions for you when you'll have time: 1/ when the MMS APN IF is activated, does modest or telepathy attempt to send data through this connection ? 2/ if yes is there a simple way to forbid data transmission other than from fmms to the MMS access point ? 3/ I activate a VPN with a /etc/network/if-up.d script when the Wifi AP I'm connected to is not one that I control: I guess that the VPN is activated when the MMS APN IF |
| 15:53.25 | *** join/#maemo pigeon (~pigeon@eth5284.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) |
| 15:54.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | your post got trunkated? |
| 15:55.02 | peetah | it may be: I tried to ask everything on a single line, but it was quite long |
| 15:55.14 | peetah | lets try again |
| 15:55.18 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: no, I did assume there is ALSO an overcurrent protection there |
| 15:55.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a max-line-length enforced by freenode |
| 15:55.27 | divVerent | just was saying that even in worst case, not too much damage can happen |
| 15:55.37 | peetah | frals: 1/ when the MMS APN IF is activated, does modest or telepathy attempt to send data through this connection ? |
| 15:55.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | we got that, peetah |
| 15:55.56 | divVerent | because the battery also has an overcurrent protection (that then breaks the battery for good) |
| 15:55.57 | peetah | frals: 2/ if yes is there a simple way to forbid data transmission other than from fmms to the MMS access point ? |
| 15:55.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...ted when the MMS APN IF |
| 15:56.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | was last that arrived |
| 15:56.34 | peetah | frals: 3/ I activate a VPN with a /etc/network/if-up.d script when the Wifi AP I'm connected to is not one that I control: I guess that the VPN is activated when the MMS APN IF is activated; how can I detect in my script that the MMS APN IF is activated ? |
| 15:56.36 | divVerent | while I've seen PCs just connect the +5V line of the PSU directly to USB |
| 15:56.55 | divVerent | thus quite large currents can happen on the USB port, way overloading the mainboard or cable |
| 15:57.22 | peetah | DocScrutinizer05: thanks for noticing, and sorry to every one for the noise |
| 15:58.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: I just don't like to defend H-E-N against that poorly based accusations. H-E-N been properly evaluated in every possible aspect and considered safe |
| 15:58.29 | divVerent | I do believe H-E-N's side of things is safe |
| 15:58.40 | divVerent | I accuse the mere existance of the cables because they can be abused elsewhere |
| 15:59.49 | divVerent | I mean, it is quite easy to engineer the N900 side of things so that no matter what happens (and which direction), the current flowing is bounded somewhere sanely |
| 16:00.02 | divVerent | I mainly fear PC-PC connections |
| 16:00.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | which are safe except when one PC is in off state |
| 16:00.45 | divVerent | especially if the other PC does not limit current on USB |
| 16:00.52 | divVerent | like I have seen before (thus the spark and reboot) |
| 16:01.21 | divVerent | when both PCs try to power the bus, USUALLY the current is still limited by the inner resistances and the small voltage difference |
| 16:01.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 16:01.41 | divVerent | it can still be like 1 or 2 A, but nothing that melts cables |
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| 16:02.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly since a power supply usually isn't any kind of power sink, even when you feed a few volts more than it's set to provide |
| 16:02.20 | divVerent | thing is, I just don't like the existence of such cables with which you have to be VERY careful to not misuse them |
| 16:02.31 | divVerent | thus, a hostmode cable with USB micro on one side and USB-A on the other is still quite safe |
| 16:02.48 | divVerent | as USB micro is typically used for small devices which won't take large amperages anyway |
| 16:03.08 | divVerent | but the USB A-USB A adaptor idea offends me |
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| 16:03.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | shrugs and idly wonders if freenode has a #usb channel |
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| 16:04.10 | divVerent | also, I mentioned this because none of these cables are in any USB spec, for a good reason |
| 16:04.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, do you think I didn't ever heard of that? |
| 16:04.33 | divVerent | and I wouldn't oppose if the USB consortium used all lawyer forces available to get rid of all nonconforming cables |
| 16:04.40 | divVerent | no, I don't |
| 16:04.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what are you telling us? |
| 16:05.05 | divVerent | I consider these cables/adaptors evil and risky. That is all. |
| 16:05.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | we already heard and got that |
| 16:05.30 | divVerent | that's all I wanted to say |
| 16:05.44 | divVerent | and it's why I'll never use hostmode on such a device, no matter how convenient |
| 16:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | DDTT |
| 16:06.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | up to you |
| 16:06.22 | divVerent | having said that, I did read about that hack where they used a AC plug-AC plug cable to insert a UPS into a running circuit without breaking it at any time |
| 16:06.35 | divVerent | I'd never do such a thing, but yes, it was neat that they could do that |
| 16:06.55 | divVerent | insert an UPS into the circuit without interrupting it by clever use of power strips and that dangerous plug-plug AC cable |
| 16:08.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think this is going from bashing H-E-N as silly useless dangerous to sth completely OT now |
| 16:09.18 | divVerent | yes, sorry |
| 16:09.42 | divVerent | to be a bit more ontopic - I'd like to see a photo of all the cabling for that external DVD drive setup if we also power the N900 using an external power supply :) |
| 16:09.58 | divVerent | it probably would remind me of the mac mini... it's just too small to hide all the cabling mess behind it |
| 16:13.03 | divVerent | as for the hostmode issues, maybe the USB consortium should sort out that issue for USB 3.1... basically some kind of safety measures to fix hostmode |
| 16:13.25 | divVerent | actually enforcing negotiated current limits would probably suffice :) |
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| 16:18.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | there *is* a safety limit of 500mA/port |
| 16:18.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | always been |
| 16:19.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | if your crappy mainboards don't even provide a blow-fuse for the USB port, that's not USB-cert's fault |
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| 16:20.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I told you USB is supposed to be short-resilient |
| 16:21.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | per definitionem |
| 16:22.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not mandatory to enforce the possibly lower supply current negotiated durin ENUM |
| 16:23.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | and while some borads do it under windows OS, it's usually not done at all under linux |
| 16:23.15 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: oh, you say these mainboards are non conforming? THAT is good to know |
| 16:23.35 | divVerent | the mainboards where USB V+ is connected to +5V from the PSU directly |
| 16:23.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | as evil as it gets |
| 16:24.26 | divVerent | since which USB standard is this the case, BTW? |
| 16:24.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | they're abusing the PCB copper traces as blow-fuse |
| 16:24.33 | divVerent | hehe |
| 16:24.40 | divVerent | in the specific case, the PSU turned off first :) |
| 16:24.41 | divVerent | thus the reboot |
| 16:25.00 | divVerent | so at least the PSU was good |
| 16:26.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, the specs afaik say: short-resilient, must support 500mA |
| 16:26.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | for standard PC USB hosts |
| 16:27.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the plug specs are rated at 1...2A max |
| 16:27.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | so it's pretty clear how the short protection has to work |
| 16:27.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's been like this since 1953 |
| 16:27.57 | frals | peetah: depends on the connection mode and if the carrier supports multiple apn contexts open at once - if its the "ugly hack handler" (or whatever i called it), it brings up a parallell connection and sets up a route to the mmsc so in that case it *should* only route the mms packages over that connection |
| 16:28.51 | frals | peetah: you could probably check what the gprs0 apn context is - but i can provide any example from the top of my head |
| 16:29.29 | frals | peetah: or you could hack around in the fmms scripts to add a tmp file or whatever when it brings up the iface, its just a shell script anyway |
| 16:29.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ifconfig and route should give some data |
| 16:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | bb5 supports usual 4 apn contexts? |
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| 18:45.15 | madduck | hello, any reason why the maemo mail client on my n900 cannot authenticate with the SMTP server (LOGIN) after issuing STARTTLS? |
| 18:45.35 | madduck | According to the mail server logs, it advertises "AUTH LOGIN PLAIN" to the client, but the client then doesn't do anything. |
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| 19:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm |
| 19:06.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ipv6? (far shot) |
| 19:06.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | check cssu changelogs if there's sth mentioned about TLS |
| 19:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | somehow TLS rings a bell here, but I can't recall what it was |
| 19:07.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | or I might be mistaken on it |
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| 19:17.13 | peetah | frals: ok thanks |
| 19:17.36 | tadzik | gah, catorise is insane |
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| 19:49.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | get apmefo, I seen "catorize compatibility" in a changenote |
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| 19:57.20 | fastlane` | whats catorise |
| 19:57.40 | fastlane` | oh ok |
| 20:01.19 | gregoa | &g 25 |
| 20:01.27 | gregoa | *grr* |
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| 20:06.24 | tadzik | is http://maemo.merlin1991.at/light/extras-devel/ still updated |
| 20:06.27 | tadzik | ? |
| 20:06.47 | tadzik | or there's just nothing new in extras-devel since mar 27? |
| 20:06.58 | merlin1991 | check http://maemo.merlin1991.at/light/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/free/binary-armel/Packages.diff/ |
| 20:07.04 | merlin1991 | and you'll see last update happened today |
| 20:07.30 | tadzik | oh, awesome |
| 20:07.39 | tadzik | Last modified doesn't refer to files inside, that confused me |
| 20:07.47 | tadzik | http://maemo.merlin1991.at/light/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/ shows may 27 alright |
| 20:07.56 | tadzik | thanks merlin1991 |
| 20:08.24 | merlin1991 | it's because it's a nested folder structure |
| 20:08.35 | merlin1991 | right below dists nothing gets touched ever |
| 20:08.46 | tadzik | right |
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| 20:31.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | SDK et al: http://privatepaste.com/e4a5b13fad |
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| 20:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo SDK is http://privatepaste.com/e4a5b13fad or "wget http://repository.maemo.org/tabletsdev/explicit/maemo-dev-env-downloads/downloads/Readme_Ubuntu_Lucid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image_Final.txt" |
| 20:41.25 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
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| 20:55.17 | GogoPogo | hi... quick question.. alternative to ifconfig for maemo x-terminal? |
| 20:55.33 | GogoPogo | or is ifconfig installable maybe? |
| 20:55.59 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: what? |
| 20:56.21 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: did you try to type ifconfig in the terminal? |
| 20:56.28 | GogoPogo | yes it doesn't find it |
| 20:56.44 | *** join/#maemo FIQ (~FIQ@unaffiliated/fiq) |
| 20:57.02 | tadzik | go root? |
| 20:57.05 | freemangordon | BusyBox v1.10.2 (Debian 3:1.10.2.legal-1osso31+0cssu0) multi-call binary |
| 20:57.12 | freemangordon | Usage: ifconfig [-a] interface [address] |
| 20:57.37 | GogoPogo | ok, it is supposed to work then |
| 20:57.38 | GogoPogo | thank you |
| 20:57.51 | GogoPogo | I haven't checked /bin |
| 20:58.04 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: it is part of busybox |
| 20:58.26 | freemangordon | and BB is surely pre-installed |
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| 20:59.23 | GogoPogo | yes it is |
| 20:59.30 | GogoPogo | of course :) |
| 21:00.15 | GogoPogo | ok ok, it was a user permission related issue |
| 21:00.35 | GogoPogo | it still behaves strangely |
| 21:00.41 | GogoPogo | I want to reflash my phone |
| 21:02.17 | GogoPogo | the file /etc/network/interfaces lists 3 network cards: lo, eth0, usb0 |
| 21:02.30 | GogoPogo | but ifconfig finds way more interfaces |
| 21:02.32 | GogoPogo | normal? |
| 21:02.39 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: and what do you expect? |
| 21:03.06 | freemangordon | phonet0 is GPRS |
| 21:03.22 | GogoPogo | I'm trying to learn |
| 21:03.29 | freemangordon | ooh, ok :) |
| 21:04.32 | GogoPogo | upnlink0 is wifi? |
| 21:04.44 | freemangordon | hmm, no idea |
| 21:05.19 | GogoPogo | if they are listed inside ifconfig results I should be able to edit their parameters somewhere inside the root shouldn't I? |
| 21:05.43 | GogoPogo | make believe I want to edit mac addresses? |
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| 21:06.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | why would you want to do that? |
| 21:07.31 | GogoPogo | I'm used to changing my MAC addresses on and off on PC |
| 21:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | .oO(???) |
| 21:08.26 | GogoPogo | Doc! I can't complete my Backup.. is there another way to copy all the /home folder at least? |
| 21:08.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm used to shooting my foot with a frozen cherry every now and then |
| 21:08.51 | GogoPogo | PC Suite always fails |
| 21:09.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | whf pc suite? sounds like windows. sorry no idea what's on windows |
| 21:09.28 | GogoPogo | Doc.. why ? I change my ethernet netcard mac... |
| 21:10.12 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: you don;t need to use PC Cuite to make backups |
| 21:10.13 | GogoPogo | I thought you were referring to backing it all up with Nokia PC Suite... how do you suggest I back it up? |
| 21:10.24 | freemangordon | BUT... |
| 21:10.45 | freemangordon | backup does not mean "copying the whole /home" |
| 21:11.01 | GogoPogo | yeah I know |
| 21:11.12 | freemangordon | if you want to copy that on yoiyr PC, install WinSCP and use that |
| 21:11.12 | GogoPogo | at least that would be good to me |
| 21:11.30 | freemangordon | *your |
| 21:11.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bm |
| 21:11.39 | infobot | it has been said that backupmenu is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 |
| 21:11.50 | freemangordon | and there is "backup" application |
| 21:12.02 | freemangordon | and what DocScrutinizer05 said, BM |
| 21:12.54 | GogoPogo | backup application works smoothly |
| 21:13.07 | GogoPogo | I'll go for backupmenu |
| 21:13.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | they serve complementary purposes |
| 21:13.58 | GogoPogo | yeah I got it |
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| 21:15.16 | GogoPogo | Doc, is there a list of network interfaces names correspondences? like phone0 = GPRS? |
| 21:15.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 21:15.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think most of them are pretty self-explaining |
| 21:16.08 | GogoPogo | not to me :\ |
| 21:16.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, you don't usually bother about them anyway |
| 21:16.39 | GogoPogo | but I do! |
| 21:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | last time I had to *do* sth about that been ~3 years ago when I traced phonet IF with wireshark |
| 21:18.13 | GogoPogo | well the mac address I'll be messing with is the wlan0 anyway |
| 21:18.36 | GogoPogo | so I recognize that name corresponds to wifi card |
| 21:18.53 | GogoPogo | but there are plenty more and I'm so curious :) |
| 21:18.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway there are only 4: lo phonet0 wlan0 wmaster0 |
| 21:18.57 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: iirc wlan and BT MAC addresses are kept in CAL ;) |
| 21:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and probably gprs when you're logged in to GSM |
| 21:19.34 | GogoPogo | CAL stands for? |
| 21:19.37 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: usb0 may appear too as some other if connected to pc suite |
| 21:19.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 21:19.48 | GogoPogo | yeah indeed it appears |
| 21:20.01 | freemangordon | ~CAL |
| 21:20.02 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, cal is a calendar. try $(cal 1752) |
| 21:20.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | all pretty self-explanatory |
| 21:20.08 | freemangordon | hmm :( |
| 21:20.28 | GogoPogo | I have others though |
| 21:20.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~liskeys cal |
| 21:20.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | won't fly |
| 21:20.46 | freemangordon | yep :) |
| 21:20.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys cal |
| 21:21.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalue talk.maemo.org |
| 21:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues talk.maemo.org |
| 21:21.40 | GogoPogo | I have: lo, e:0, ier:0, phonet0, er:0, upnlink0, :0, me:0, rier:0, wmaster0, :0 again |
| 21:22.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc, never seen |
| 21:22.10 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: "Configuration Access Library" |
| 21:22.37 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/libcal/blobs/27df167a08103f060f297cbdfec2a360e5d1eec4/src/cal.c#line4 |
| 21:22.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, I dunno if changing wlan MAC is that easily done |
| 21:23.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: eh? |
| 21:23.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 21:23.18 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: in case you want CAL in the factoid |
| 21:23.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know that |
| 21:23.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 21:23.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo CAL is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465 |
| 21:23.58 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 21:25.28 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: AFAIK wlan MAC is read from CAL end send to kernel via a netlink socket or whatever was it called |
| 21:25.33 | freemangordon | *and |
| 21:25.59 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: not sure how easy is to be changed |
| 21:26.16 | GogoPogo | I usually set a line inside /etc/network/interfaces |
| 21:26.40 | GogoPogo | below the card namehwaddress <address> |
| 21:26.40 | freemangordon | well, try it, it might work |
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| 21:27.01 | freemangordon | chances are low, but still |
| 21:27.07 | GogoPogo | hwaddress <address> |
| 21:27.22 | GogoPogo | where do I exactly find the CAL? |
| 21:27.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cal |
| 21:27.32 | infobot | i guess cal is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465 |
| 21:27.40 | freemangordon | ^^^ :) |
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| 21:28.08 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: you need libcal |
| 21:28.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you don't want to do that, honestly |
| 21:28.29 | freemangordon | and some code to use it |
| 21:28.39 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: :nod: |
| 21:28.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's actually the only way to thoroughly brick your N900 |
| 21:29.09 | GogoPogo | HAM hasn't got it |
| 21:29.19 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: which one, libcal? |
| 21:29.28 | GogoPogo | yeah |
| 21:29.32 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: you have that preinstalled |
| 21:29.41 | freemangordon | but need some code to use it |
| 21:29.57 | freemangordon | libcal is closed source and no documentation is available ;) |
| 21:30.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm honestly failing to get the approach GogoPogo is taking on a new unknown system |
| 21:30.18 | GogoPogo | sh*t :) |
| 21:30.31 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: honestly, you'd better follow DocScrutinizer05's advice ant not play with CAL |
| 21:30.35 | GogoPogo | Doc, is there a good approach? |
| 21:30.40 | freemangordon | *and |
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| 21:31.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, maybe one: don't use root or sudo for first 6 months |
| 21:31.22 | freemangordon | :) |
| 21:31.28 | GogoPogo | non sense! :) |
| 21:32.16 | tadzik | unless you're adventurous ;) |
| 21:32.19 | GogoPogo | maemo is linux and linux is fun... I should sell it back otherwise :D |
| 21:32.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know what su tells you? with great power comes great responsibility |
| 21:32.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should know your shit before you mess with it |
| 21:32.34 | GogoPogo | so ? It's my phone.... |
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| 21:32.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's our nerves |
| 21:33.08 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: really, the only way to make your n900 unusable is to mess with CAL, everything else can be fixed |
| 21:33.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I honestly fail to see why you would need to change MAC, to start with |
| 21:34.08 | GogoPogo | I'll try not to touch it /angel face/, I haven't found it yet anyway /devil face/ |
| 21:34.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | not even experienced users/devels ever asked for it |
| 21:34.43 | GogoPogo | doc... mac address can be retrieved by packets deep analysis |
| 21:34.56 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: on the other hand you're right, it is your device, here is libcal replacement source code https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/libcal |
| 21:34.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr .....k |
| 21:35.09 | GogoPogo | it usually can be changed.. |
| 21:35.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably even by not-so-deep "analysis" |
| 21:35.49 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: You have to figure out what needs to be done to change tha MAC address in CAL |
| 21:35.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | your statements make no sense |
| 21:35.55 | GogoPogo | so what? You agree with me it can be found, and it can be used to identify your machine |
| 21:36.20 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: use iptables |
| 21:36.32 | freemangordon | if you think your MAC needs to be changed |
| 21:36.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, an APN would be able to associate your MAC to your device |
| 21:36.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what a MAC is used for |
| 21:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | AP |
| 21:36.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | not APN |
| 21:37.38 | GogoPogo | freemangordon: iptables is an app? |
| 21:37.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | but so what again? the AP/hotspot will need to authenticate you anyway, unless you're using public open hotspots |
| 21:38.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and - just in case you suffer a misconception here - the traffic from AP to internet at alrge does _not_ carry your MAC |
| 21:38.42 | freemangordon | :nod: |
| 21:39.14 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: ask google for iptables |
| 21:39.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I completely fail to see the purpose of this stuff you plan to do |
| 21:39.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you're an evil blackhat |
| 21:40.04 | GogoPogo | Doc, you're not supposed to. I don't understand why you want me to justify.. |
| 21:40.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | that plans to penetrate some company's WLAN and still you don't want to throw away your N900 after having committed the crime |
| 21:40.56 | GogoPogo | ahahaha |
| 21:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | GogoPogo: simply because you're asking nonsensical questions that nobody else would ever benefit from if we waste hours to explain all that stuff to you |
| 21:42.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that latter is what you plan: forget it, IT forensics can identify your device even when you changed the MAC |
| 21:42.28 | GogoPogo | :D |
| 21:43.03 | GogoPogo | that's paranoia Doc, something I suffer from and can't help doing |
| 21:43.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are other ways than simple MAC addr to identify a platform and even a particular wlan chipset |
| 21:43.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly suggest to color your hair twice a day and waer another sunglasses every 10 min |
| 21:44.09 | GogoPogo | you got it :D |
| 21:44.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | changing MAC is mere nonsense |
| 21:44.33 | GogoPogo | well, many would disagree |
| 21:44.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | completely useless for anything I could think of |
| 21:45.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's exactly one usecase for MAC change: when you want to fake another WLAN client, on an AP with MAC filter |
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| 21:46.30 | freemangordon | GogoPogo: it is useless, MAC lives only in LAN, the first router you're connected to changes your MAC with its own (to put it simplified) |
| 21:46.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I said that |
| 21:47.33 | freemangordon | yep, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_spoofing |
| 21:48.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you hope to stay anonymous when you use same public hotspot several times, then forget it as well. Your traffic patterns will expose your identity |
| 21:49.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | so changing your MAC onkly shows you're rogue but silly and hope to hide something |
| 21:49.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | unlike MAC, your traffic patterns _will_ propagate to larger internet |
| 21:50.01 | Pali | sometimes you need to change MAC if ipv6 priv address not working in open network (and you do not want to use calculated public ipv6 address from mac) |
| 21:50.38 | freemangordon | Pali: n900 does not have ipv6 (by default) :) |
| 21:51.15 | GogoPogo | Doc, you're indirectly saying that I'm silly, like I offended you.. really.. chill out. That's getting kinda tiresome. |
| 21:51.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, i say what you plan to do is silly, unless there's some very obscure sound rationale that we all fail to see |
| 21:53.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | so far your reasoning why you want to change MAC wasn't convincing |
| 21:53.33 | GogoPogo | I don't need to convince you in order to talk on here |
| 21:53.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's plain useless for all purposes you gave hint towards and we tried to figure |
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| 21:54.14 | Pali | freemangordon: mine has :-) |
| 21:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, you don't. But you will lose my support (and probably everybody else's) when you ask for stuff that nobody sees a good reason it should get done at all |
| 21:54.29 | GogoPogo | it's not plain useless, you can find many good and bad reason, and Pali wrote down one |
| 21:55.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and now I'm done with that, and afk |
| 21:55.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | just one last advice: don't touch CAL, you lack the mandatory skills for that |
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| 21:57.19 | GogoPogo | lol, all boils down to skills ownership.. like it wasn't obvious I lack them.. it's good to stress it isn't it? |
| 21:57.36 | Pali | btw, if you want to change mac address, why not to use ifconfig/ip or udev script? |
| 21:57.43 | GogoPogo | thanks for your time, I won't bother with nonsense anymore |
| 21:58.15 | GogoPogo | Pali, I was trying in fact :) |
| 21:58.54 | Pali | $ sudo ip link set dev "$interface" address "$mac_address" |
| 21:59.18 | Pali | install package iproute2 from extras-devel which contains command ip |
| 21:59.34 | Pali | this *should* work for changing mac address |
| 21:59.40 | GogoPogo | thanks a lot! I'll try right away |
| 22:00.24 | ecc3g | will mosh (mobile shell) be accepted into the repo at some point? |
| 22:01.11 | Pali | ecc3g, is there debian source package for that application? |
| 22:01.19 | ecc3g | or is it just the usual 'needs a maintainer'... |
| 22:01.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ecc3g: maybe, maybe not. Might have immanent power consumption issues |
| 22:01.49 | ecc3g | no clue... haven't seen one, just raw src |
| 22:02.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | which should rule it out on testing. So it wouldn't go to extras, and stay in extras-devel |
| 22:04.28 | ecc3g | curious how it does, say vs straight ssh, for power drain... |
| 22:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc mosh protocol specs rely on very frequent keep-alive pings, that are by design a bug/flaw for mobile apps |
| 22:05.32 | ecc3g | yow |
| 22:05.39 | Pali | why to use mosh instead ssh?? |
| 22:05.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 22:06.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it cuts thru your battery in no time, when on 3G |
| 22:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | mosh is broken by design |
| 22:06.51 | ecc3g | yes that would suck... was hoping it would do the opposite - sendling chunks vs individual characters like ssh |
| 22:07.15 | cehteh | i'd wish for a ssh with a local readline option |
| 22:07.34 | ecc3g | thats what mosh sounded like... |
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| 22:07.47 | ecc3g | false advertising? |
| 22:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | a big hoax |
| 22:08.02 | cehteh | only tab and return and certain control command send data and it watches when the terminal is switched into raw mode |
| 22:08.38 | cehteh | i tried mosh from a laptop to server, its useful if you have high latency links, but it is not power efficient |
| 22:08.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, afaik that's what ssh does, when configured correctly |
| 22:08.53 | cehteh | there are uses for it |
| 22:09.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | which results in ^C or ^D not working until you hit enter |
| 22:09.08 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer05: tell me how please |
| 22:09.31 | cehteh | iirc it can not do it |
| 22:09.52 | cehteh | ssh sends each and every keystroke |
| 22:10.06 | cehteh | (maybe it batches a few milliseconds together) |
| 22:10.21 | Pali | it depends on your pts and terminal emulator what will be sent |
| 22:10.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask aunt google for "^C not working via ssh" OWTTE, and then see what they recommend to avoid. That's what you want to _do_ then ;-) |
| 22:10.38 | Pali | and shell |
| 22:11.39 | Pali | I think that there is no better protocol for remote shell |
| 22:11.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can define buffer fill threshold, buffer expiry time, and transmissions initiation chars, iirc |
| 22:12.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | today's standard config is buffer-fill-treshold=0 |
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| 22:13.04 | ecc3g | would be nice if there was something that would auto goto line mode in readline apps, and eat power in vim... but remote echo still works when in line mode (faked) |
| 22:13.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | or = 256 or sth and a timeout os 0.1s |
| 22:14.20 | ecc3g | it is not always easy to detect... but always wishes out there. |
| 22:16.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: yes, exactly. Mosh is for high-latency situations |
| 22:17.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably invented in times of GSM CSD |
| 22:17.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | or acoustic couplers ;-P |
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| 22:17.49 | ecc3g | shell over satellite |
| 22:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | the beloved "datenklo" |
| 22:17.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that, good point |
| 22:18.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | they still have datarates of 4800baud usually |
| 22:18.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and a RTT of >1s |
| 22:19.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | (via sat phones and the like) |
| 22:19.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | barely sufficient to poll your email |
| 22:25.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | here you are: https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2012-04-18.log.html#t2012-04-18T18:39:03 |
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| 22:35.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | on hindsight, my final verdict on mosh back when should've been "yes, mosh acts almost like ssh - when you press backspace in ssh every 3s" |
| 22:36.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | wcdma/3G never will stop sending, the timeout is longer than 3s iirc |
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| 22:48.34 | miniyo | hi, anyone has debian chroot with testing? it wants to upgrade libc6, which says it needs a more recent kernel |
| 22:49.31 | miniyo | and upgrading it seems a must for some essential packages |
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| 22:57.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: >>Mosh doesn't fill up network buffers, so Control-C always works to halt a runaway process<< -- and see `man stty` |
| 23:05.38 | Pali | hahahahaha |
| 23:06.11 | Pali | somebody does not know about pts and terminal emulator, so creating mosh? |
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| 23:55.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: man 3 cbreak |
| 23:56.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: we're getting closer |
| 23:56.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: my suggestion about aunt google was a tad... unspecific |