| 00:05.23 | *** join/#maemo mvp (~mvp@209.117.47.248) |
| 00:12.22 | *** join/#maemo mad-dev (~mad-dev@174.123.158.98.client.dyn.strong-in21.as13926.net) |
| 00:26.58 | darodi | DocScrutinizer05: so... to summarize |
| 00:26.58 | darodi | 1. uninstall multiboot |
| 00:26.58 | darodi | 2. install uboot |
| 00:26.58 | darodi | 3. upgrade kp51 to kp52 |
| 00:26.58 | darodi | 4. create bootmenu items |
| 00:26.59 | darodi | 5. run update boot menu |
| 00:26.59 | darodi | 6. reboot |
| 00:26.59 | darodi | i am right? |
| 00:27.41 | darodi | 0. backup everything :P |
| 00:29.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, to me that lloks good, but that doesn't mean a thing. I'm no expert |
| 00:30.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | though... upgrade KP nukes uBoot |
| 00:30.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need to install KP-uimage |
| 00:32.47 | darodi | that's what i meant with the point 3 |
| 00:32.48 | darodi | install uimages for kp and create valid bootmenu items |
| 00:32.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idea is that uBoot loads different uImages depending on kernel you want to boot. But the one "built-in" kernel that ships with uBoot is a stock maemo kernel that doesn't work with thumb. So you need the kp52-uimage in place before you install uBoot |
| 00:33.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 00:34.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/install/flash/ |
| 00:35.18 | darodi | I guess I found something to do tomorrow |
| 00:44.51 | *** join/#maemo pcfe (~pcfe@91-66-48-81-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 00:44.52 | *** join/#maemo pcfe (~pcfe@redhat/pcfe) |
| 00:48.46 | darodi | thanks again DocScrutinizer05 |
| 00:48.47 | darodi | good night every one |
| 00:58.35 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@80.250.181.195) |
| 00:58.36 | *** part/#maemo valerius2k (root@80.250.181.195) |
| 00:58.44 | *** join/#maemo DHR (~hugh@CPE00606767ed59-CM000f9fa81660.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 01:00.14 | *** join/#maemo Neutron115 (~neutron@142.85-200-55.bkkb.no) |
| 01:04.49 | *** join/#maemo Neutron115 (~neutron@142.85-200-55.bkkb.no) |
| 01:05.24 | *** join/#maemo LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@14.151.253.181) |
| 01:15.51 | *** join/#maemo mvp (~mvp@209.117.47.248) |
| 01:33.51 | *** join/#maemo fmunozs (~fmunozs@pdpc/supporter/active/fmunozs) |
| 01:38.24 | *** join/#maemo mvp (~mvp@209.117.47.248) |
| 01:42.54 | *** join/#maemo tg (~irc@eu.tgbit.net) |
| 01:43.24 | *** join/#maemo hardfalcon1 (~hardfalco@f048198199.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 02:03.46 | *** join/#maemo maybeHere (~cl@p5B1658BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:25.42 | *** join/#maemo uen| (~uen@p5DCB0E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:43.39 | *** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 02:58.24 | *** join/#maemo cyborg-one (~cyborg-on@130-0-56-212.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua) |
| 02:58.58 | *** join/#maemo SmilybOrg (Smily@BSN-176-187-176.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 03:01.18 | *** join/#maemo lxp (~lxp@188-22-218-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 03:03.54 | *** join/#maemo DocScrutinizer05 (~HaleBopp@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 03:05.33 | *** join/#maemo dockane (~dockane@dsdf-4db5d0af.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 03:11.03 | *** join/#maemo Termana (Termana@outback.nsw.au.panicbnc.net) |
| 03:18.33 | *** join/#maemo ALoGeNo (~alogeno@unaffiliated/alogeno) |
| 03:35.46 | *** join/#maemo npm (~npm@cpe-198-72-183-90.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 04:11.01 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@icq.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 04:43.06 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 05:57.17 | *** join/#maemo FlameReaper (~assassin@175.144.204.194) |
| 06:06.11 | *** join/#maemo qwazix (~qwazix@78.87.14.177) |
| 06:37.34 | *** join/#maemo LauRoman (~LauRoman@5-14-93-43.residential.rdsnet.ro) |
| 06:39.52 | *** join/#maemo hell (~hell@sb28.hellamps.ru) |
| 06:40.31 | *** join/#maemo FlameReaper (~assassin@175.138.126.168) |
| 06:40.54 | hell | hi, folks |
| 06:41.03 | *** join/#maemo Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 06:41.49 | hell | does anybody affiliated with repository.maemo.org present? |
| 06:56.07 | *** join/#maemo discopig (~discopig@2001:5c0:1400:a::115) |
| 06:56.07 | *** join/#maemo discopig (~discopig@unaffiliated/discopig) |
| 07:15.24 | *** join/#maemo futpib (~futpib@89.106.197.44) |
| 07:20.55 | *** part/#maemo valerius2k (root@icq.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 07:21.08 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@80.250.181.195) |
| 07:28.05 | *** join/#maemo zammy (~sammy@ppp-2-82.98-62.inwind.it) |
| 07:29.47 | *** join/#maemo utanapischti (~username@p4FF2F025.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:33.50 | *** join/#maemo TNZ_ (~quassel@2a01:e35:2e0e:3290:9cb2:8ebf:723e:621b) |
| 07:36.59 | *** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 07:54.14 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:59.32 | *** join/#maemo sLumPia (~sLumPia@114.121.114.154) |
| 08:15.23 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@bzq-84-108-185-31.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 08:15.23 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@funtoo/user/ZogG) |
| 08:31.03 | *** join/#maemo andre__ (~andre@ip-213-127-161-46.ip.prioritytelecom.net) |
| 08:31.03 | *** join/#maemo andre__ (~andre@wikimedia/aklapper) |
| 08:33.10 | *** part/#maemo valerius2k (root@80.250.181.195) |
| 08:33.22 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@sms.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 08:57.10 | *** join/#maemo dhbiker (~dhbiker@95.87.145.172) |
| 09:03.04 | *** join/#maemo OkropNick (kuba@host-n2-75-80.telpol.net.pl) |
| 09:10.01 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 09:13.37 | *** part/#maemo valerius2k (root@sms.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 09:29.45 | divVerent | before I waste 30minutes to code my own: is there already an "align to grid" tool for hildon-desktop? |
| 09:29.49 | *** join/#maemo lost_atlantis (~atlantis@109.230.217.151) |
| 09:29.57 | divVerent | if not - it looks like I'll do it as shell script then |
| 09:34.08 | joga | hmm, I think some theme manager thingy allowed to configure grid snap... |
| 09:34.43 | *** join/#maemo Martix (~martix@static-84-242-103-180.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 09:35.33 | joga | divVerent, I have something in Settings called Theme Customizer (I forget the package name), it allows to define the snap etc |
| 09:36.29 | divVerent | odd, as there is no gconf setting for that |
| 09:37.01 | divVerent | wonder where it sets that then :) |
| 09:37.19 | joga | dunno :) but I have it set on 8 pixels and when I drag stuff around they align themselves according to that |
| 09:38.24 | divVerent | OH, so maybe the snap size is part of the theme |
| 09:38.29 | divVerent | that'd explain why I don't find it in gconf |
| 09:39.32 | divVerent | thanks, that did it |
| 09:40.16 | divVerent | no snap to grid shell script then :) |
| 09:45.34 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:50.07 | Macer | ok. i thought the old ibm mechanical keyboard was cool up until i realized how much noise it makes when you type |
| 09:50.28 | Macer | i wonder if i can find custom keys for it heh |
| 09:53.58 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@217.237.167.133) |
| 09:53.58 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 09:58.10 | joga | some of my more special keyboards have this 'plunk' sound they make when you release a key, it sorta echoes inside it also |
| 09:58.55 | joga | hard to type quietly with those :) |
| 10:17.35 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 10:24.39 | *** join/#maemo arcean (~arcean@aada106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 10:37.11 | *** join/#maemo otep (~quassel@AP-203.167.4.11.sysads.com) |
| 10:37.54 | *** join/#maemo sq-one (~sq-one@p549A9D70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:41.40 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 10:46.59 | *** join/#maemo qwazix_ (~qwazix@77.69.2.93) |
| 10:59.04 | *** join/#maemo Vanadis_ (~Vanadis@77-56-136-140.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 11:01.20 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 11:06.46 | *** join/#maemo Vanadis (~Vanadis@77-56-136-140.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 11:13.48 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 11:24.21 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178224057.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 11:26.00 | *** join/#maemo sardini (~halXI@2a01:e35:1386:4120:d974:6bf7:420d:c481) |
| 11:31.34 | *** join/#maemo sardini (~halXI@2a01:e35:1386:4120:d974:6bf7:420d:c481) |
| 11:39.45 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 11:54.32 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 11:56.16 | Apic | A wonderful splendid Towel Day. |
| 11:57.27 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p57B9E973.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:58.34 | inz | dammit, didn't bring my towel |
| 12:00.51 | *** join/#maemo andre__ (andre@conference/wikimedia-hackathon/x-cntmrvihxlolozhw) |
| 12:00.52 | *** join/#maemo andre__ (andre@wikimedia/aklapper) |
| 12:01.32 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 12:02.32 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@bzq-84-108-185-31.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 12:02.32 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@funtoo/user/ZogG) |
| 12:07.49 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@sms.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 12:10.08 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:11.18 | *** part/#maemo hell (~hell@sb28.hellamps.ru) |
| 12:19.22 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 12:23.04 | *** join/#maemo lizardo (lizardo@nat/indt/x-tivacayvoymqtadw) |
| 12:31.19 | *** join/#maemo Cor-Ai (~cor-ai@212.112.62.30) |
| 12:49.35 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 12:49.39 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@217.237.167.133) |
| 12:49.40 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 12:58.26 | *** join/#maemo flo_lap (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 13:11.38 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 13:14.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | Apic: a wonderful (UGT) good morning |
| 13:14.54 | *** join/#maemo arcean (~arcean@aada106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 13:15.25 | Apic | tnx |
| 13:17.28 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (~quassel@p5DCA668C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:25.00 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:26.01 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:31.47 | divVerent | BTW, just saw with NetStory... I need only about 100 MB per month of mobile traffic with the N900 |
| 13:31.55 | divVerent | by setting it to only use mobule internet when asked to |
| 13:32.01 | divVerent | good it has options to e.g. only |
| 13:32.07 | divVerent | check email on wifi automatically, and such |
| 13:32.18 | divVerent | iPhone in same usage pattern took about 500 MB |
| 13:32.41 | divVerent | 100 MB however only due to Opera's Turbo server... otherwise it'd be about 200 MB |
| 13:34.24 | *** join/#maemo arcean_ (~arcean@aacr58.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 13:42.42 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-161-98.as13285.net) |
| 13:45.45 | *** join/#maemo OkropNick (kuba@host-n2-75-80.telpol.net.pl) |
| 14:04.19 | *** join/#maemo ron0062000 (~ron006200@cpe-72-181-242-49.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 14:05.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but that usage pattern is mostly irrelevant to me, thanks xchat ;-) |
| 14:06.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | the whole idea and purpose behind irc and maemo unique awesome multitasking being the always-online aspect |
| 14:07.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW the fact that I get audible and vibra notification on every highlight and inbound /query in realtime |
| 14:07.44 | divVerent | that would be too much for me... due to some other channels |
| 14:08.11 | divVerent | thing is, Maemo simply needs a lot less traffic than iOS |
| 14:08.19 | divVerent | because you have more control on what you enable and what not |
| 14:08.27 | divVerent | I also use AutoDisconnect, for example |
| 14:08.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the only optimization I could think of is a smart proxy that does the highlight detection serverside and thus buffers "irrelevant" traffic until a realtime "event" happens |
| 14:09.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: auto-disconnect is a poor idea and a terrible botch/hack that messes up your connectivity sooner or later |
| 14:09.46 | divVerent | messes up? |
| 14:09.57 | divVerent | I know it isn't really implemented right... but what is the worst that can happen? |
| 14:09.59 | divVerent | that it disconnects |
| 14:10.01 | divVerent | so what |
| 14:10.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | being associated to aPN doesn't mean any increased power usage or traffic per se |
| 14:10.18 | divVerent | sure |
| 14:10.25 | divVerent | but it means that the next program wanting a data connection will ask me |
| 14:10.32 | divVerent | (or fail) |
| 14:10.45 | divVerent | AutoDisconnect's main issue is that its detection logic is flawed |
| 14:10.52 | divVerent | it checks once per $INTERVAL for the amount of traffic since start |
| 14:11.04 | divVerent | so if just at the end of $INTERVAL I open the browser... |
| 14:11.12 | divVerent | it may still disconnect me right after fetching some data |
| 14:11.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I seen like half a million user complaints about mysterious defects in connectivity that were impossible to fix even by deinstallation of auto-disconnect -> reflash for those poor lads |
| 14:11.29 | divVerent | I can live with that though, it never hit me, but it's an obvious flaw nevertheless |
| 14:11.44 | divVerent | that I did not have yet |
| 14:11.56 | divVerent | what weird stuff does it do other than checking traffic amount and disconnecting? |
| 14:12.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah it kicks in at random, eventually |
| 14:12.29 | divVerent | yes, it does kick in at random, by its flawed design... for the reason I described |
| 14:12.33 | divVerent | but that issue I can live with |
| 14:12.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | auto-disconnect is messing with icd config and logic in a way that doesn't get deinstalled by postrm |
| 14:12.54 | divVerent | why would it even need to do that |
| 14:12.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | eventually icd breaks on that mess |
| 14:13.13 | divVerent | and do you have any other software to suggest for that purpose? |
| 14:13.22 | divVerent | all I REALLY want is automatic disconnection from GPRS/3G when locking |
| 14:13.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I never did an in-depth evaluation, just episodic wisdom |
| 14:13.53 | divVerent | also, if the bug is known, why isn't it fixed |
| 14:13.57 | divVerent | (the bug in postrm, that is) |
| 14:14.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: for THAT I'd suggest dbus-scripting plus some smart dbus message to ICD2 |
| 14:14.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | see |
| 14:14.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~phone-control |
| 14:14.35 | divVerent | I wouldn't know which message, though |
| 14:14.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~phonecontrol |
| 14:14.39 | infobot | from memory, phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control |
| 14:14.40 | divVerent | and on which event |
| 14:14.46 | divVerent | but also |
| 14:14.50 | divVerent | now that I know postrm has a bug |
| 14:14.54 | divVerent | should I really dare to deinstall it? |
| 14:15.08 | divVerent | or would that even CAUSE issues due to now dangling references? |
| 14:15.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, deinstall of auto-disconnect is prone to COMPLETELY mess up stuff |
| 14:15.38 | divVerent | why is it in extras BTW then |
| 14:15.41 | divVerent | if it is that broken |
| 14:15.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, exactly |
| 14:15.46 | divVerent | shouldn't such stuff remain in extras-devel then? |
| 14:15.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 14:16.07 | divVerent | I sure can't afford reflashing it |
| 14:16.12 | divVerent | it'd take me ages to get set up aghain |
| 14:16.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | auto-disconect would be a fine candidate to join crappatch's fate |
| 14:16.26 | divVerent | EVEN with backup of all gconf stuff |
| 14:16.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | in my book |
| 14:16.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas I have no time to follow up on it |
| 14:16.58 | divVerent | actually... is there a tool that identifies all modified system files (including config), and creates a diff from the original version? :) |
| 14:17.00 | *** join/#maemo ieatlint (~ieatlint@tehinterweb.com) |
| 14:17.05 | divVerent | debsums is sort of that |
| 14:17.08 | divVerent | but not packaged for Maemo |
| 14:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, you know the path to go... ;-D |
| 14:17.27 | divVerent | if I have the list of files modified from the original version, all else I need is the original .debs and diff |
| 14:17.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | seen your application |
| 14:17.36 | divVerent | yes, but it'd take me still a few weeks to be able to run the SDK |
| 14:17.43 | divVerent | I still only have my eeepc 701 |
| 14:18.03 | divVerent | and yes, debsums should be somewhat easy to port |
| 14:18.08 | divVerent | although the debian binary does not run on Maemo |
| 14:18.13 | divVerent | too many library dependencies for crypto hash stuff |
| 14:18.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 14:18.26 | divVerent | but such libs tend to be quite portable |
| 14:18.36 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:18.41 | divVerent | actually, if I had a Debian system here... I could run debsums remotely :) |
| 14:18.53 | divVerent | debsums can use another root, and sshfs exists |
| 14:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | or you ask somebody with a proper system to run that stuff for you ;-D |
| 14:19.21 | divVerent | hehe |
| 14:19.23 | divVerent | actually |
| 14:19.25 | divVerent | debsums may be a good idea |
| 14:19.32 | divVerent | it may even find what AutoDisconnect screwed up |
| 14:19.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, absolutel<y |
| 14:19.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ping merlin1991! |
| 14:19.54 | divVerent | once you know the file, it probably can be fixed by a few dpkg commands |
| 14:19.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | he might be very interested |
| 14:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | he also might be willing to help on getting debsums pkg built for maemo |
| 14:20.25 | divVerent | too bad it's still ugly to download every single .deb, and extract the one file to compare with |
| 14:20.48 | divVerent | also, I recently noticed that LOTS of stuff from community is not in the mp-community-*-pr metapackage |
| 14:20.50 | divVerent | not even apt is |
| 14:21.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 14:21.02 | divVerent | or the notes app is not either |
| 14:21.11 | divVerent | I had wondered why my deborphan keepers file is so big :) |
| 14:21.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's base package that comes by flashing |
| 14:21.15 | divVerent | I created it from a fresh install |
| 14:21.35 | divVerent | some of the packages in that list SURE don't look like I could safely remove them |
| 14:21.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 14:21.49 | divVerent | so mp-*-pr does not protect all that should be protected from "accidental" removal |
| 14:22.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why apt-get upgrade is forbidden (well, one of the reasons, and not really exactly fitting this case, but anyway) |
| 14:22.24 | divVerent | upgrade does not remove stuff |
| 14:22.27 | divVerent | you mean dist-upgrade :) |
| 14:22.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 14:22.40 | divVerent | but even dist-upgrade doesn't "just do" it |
| 14:22.44 | divVerent | it lists what it would do, and asks |
| 14:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | and auto-remove |
| 14:22.47 | divVerent | something one should ALWAYS read |
| 14:22.53 | divVerent | even on Ubuntu this broke stuff sometimes |
| 14:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and other weird commands on apt cmdline |
| 14:23.04 | divVerent | like, I had it once want to remove bash on Ubuntu |
| 14:23.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 14:23.21 | divVerent | autoremove is not even broken... |
| 14:23.27 | divVerent | it does what it is designed for... and its design is bad |
| 14:23.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably deinstalled 90% of system |
| 14:23.30 | divVerent | it's equally bad on Debian |
| 14:23.50 | divVerent | just that Debian does a better job at marking packages "essential" |
| 14:23.55 | divVerent | which apt generally refuses to remove |
| 14:24.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 14:24.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | nokia been terribly lazy on dependcy-definitions |
| 14:24.37 | divVerent | I actually hate the autoremove function of packaging systems |
| 14:24.41 | divVerent | I mean, does it even do any good? |
| 14:24.52 | divVerent | I install stuff, try it out... and later want to remove it |
| 14:24.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | they cut edges there, assuming they were in full control of every PR that rolls out |
| 14:24.53 | divVerent | but when I installed like 50 crazy things to try out |
| 14:24.58 | divVerent | then I don't remember any more which they were |
| 14:25.09 | divVerent | so basically, I do not even WANT automatic marking as "wanted" when installing stuff |
| 14:25.24 | divVerent | I know you can tell apt to not do that, but the default is bad and leads to clutter in that list |
| 14:25.31 | divVerent | that's why I use debfoster/deborphan |
| 14:25.45 | divVerent | my workflow is to rather install lots of stuff |
| 14:25.47 | divVerent | try it out |
| 14:25.50 | divVerent | mark as good what I want to keep |
| 14:25.52 | divVerent | then remove all else |
| 14:25.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | you seem pretty savvy regarding that stuff |
| 14:26.12 | divVerent | using Debian, Ubuntu for ages... |
| 14:26.21 | divVerent | as for debsums, I will now try to run that over WLAN then Internet then my server :) |
| 14:26.29 | divVerent | the flash image isn't THAT big, so it may even work |
| 14:26.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | all it needs is a proper lesson on all the broken stuff in maemo packaging and we have a new maintainer ;-) |
| 14:26.46 | divVerent | isn't the lesson of what is NOT broken shorter? :) |
| 14:26.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed ;-P |
| 14:27.45 | divVerent | regarding the phone control page... I was not into telephony much |
| 14:27.51 | divVerent | what is the difference between "ICD" and "ICD2" |
| 14:28.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's face it: apt never been meant to get used without HAM wrapper around it, on maemo |
| 14:28.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think there is no difference, except lazy typing |
| 14:28.39 | divVerent | I somewhat doubt the HAM wrapper does it a lot better... it does other things worse |
| 14:29.05 | divVerent | is the icd2 documented anywhere? |
| 14:29.20 | divVerent | that bitmask field looks intriguing... like, can it be told to not touch wifi? :) |
| 14:29.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | (HAM) well, it adds another layer of abstraction, some filtering, and a new concept of traust/security |
| 14:29.55 | divVerent | ah, no |
| 14:29.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | trust* |
| 14:30.00 | divVerent | it is documented, and does nothing useful |
| 14:30.12 | divVerent | they should rather have done this trust concept as part of apt |
| 14:30.25 | *** join/#maemo brzys (~brzys@5.231.5.10) |
| 14:30.37 | divVerent | hm... "network type" is one of the args of that request. That sounds neat. |
| 14:30.45 | divVerent | so disconnect GPRS on lock is actually quite easy |
| 14:30.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | it sure is |
| 14:31.04 | divVerent | oh wait, also noticed something else |
| 14:31.07 | divVerent | I want to conserve battery life |
| 14:31.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | would take me max 15 min to implement |
| 14:31.24 | divVerent | so maybe what I really want is to disconnect GPRS _and_ wifi as soon as I am on battery AND locked |
| 14:31.31 | divVerent | yes, probably |
| 14:31.44 | divVerent | only this checking for both things... is not that trivial using just dbus-script |
| 14:31.51 | divVerent | unless I store data in files, which I would not want to |
| 14:32.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | get dbus-scripting pkg, run dbus-monitor and find out about the relevant events/messages, implement the dbus-scripting-script |
| 14:32.14 | divVerent | so I would rather want to check lock state and charging state... in worst case, using bnf's way, and lock is sure in the process table :) |
| 14:32.23 | divVerent | dbus-scripting however is somewhat stateless... or not? |
| 14:32.26 | divVerent | it nonly responds to messages |
| 14:32.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | why not store data in temporary files? |
| 14:32.42 | divVerent | but if I only want to react when TWO events are true, and no matter which one came last |
| 14:32.47 | divVerent | that is error prone :) |
| 14:32.58 | divVerent | I'd rather check the respective other state on each state change |
| 14:33.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | or, even better: find our about sttaes by more dbus messages or rads from sysfs? |
| 14:33.15 | divVerent | yes, that would be it |
| 14:33.36 | divVerent | just means more badly doucmented dbus stuff to figure out |
| 14:33.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | damn, my typing sucks today even worse than usually |
| 14:34.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | dbus-monitor is your friend |
| 14:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and dbus-introspections (which is non-existant for all genuine nokia dbus objects >:-( ) |
| 14:35.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | check out mdbus aka mickey#s dbus monitor |
| 14:35.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | awesome |
| 14:35.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | tan expansion on dbus methods and addr |
| 14:35.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | tab* |
| 14:35.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | based on introspection |
| 14:36.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | AAAWEESOME! |
| 14:37.04 | divVerent | that is nice |
| 14:37.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.google.de/search?q=mdbus+mickey |
| 14:39.12 | divVerent | 0root@v220120211684756499:~# debsums -r /mnt -l > no-md5sums.txt; debsums -r /mnt -c -a > changed-md5sums.txt |
| 14:39.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc it's python! ;-) |
| 14:39.16 | divVerent | wonder how slow that will be :) |
| 14:39.30 | divVerent | probably a few hours |
| 14:39.44 | divVerent | 1Mbit/s upstream |
| 14:40.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should get a proper account on a net box with some cpu grunt and fat backbone |
| 14:40.44 | divVerent | the server I use basically has that |
| 14:40.52 | divVerent | the 1MBit/s is the limit of my ADSL the N900 is connected to |
| 14:41.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 14:41.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | k |
| 14:41.32 | divVerent | all PC I have here is the eeepc with 4 GB SSD |
| 14:41.37 | divVerent | and 2 GB RAM |
| 14:41.47 | divVerent | a typical case where the rule "swap = 2 * ram" would be REALLY bad |
| 14:41.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I finally should upload a complete virgin maemo5 fs to $somewhere |
| 14:41.59 | divVerent | so I used an alternate rule: "swap = 0" |
| 14:42.18 | rikanee | divVerent: 2GB RAM for a Linux system is a /lot/ |
| 14:42.29 | divVerent | yes |
| 14:42.32 | divVerent | but I sometimes used it |
| 14:42.35 | divVerent | I had to run Java stuff... |
| 14:42.55 | divVerent | typically in my daily use, up to 1GB get used |
| 14:43.04 | divVerent | some web sites eat a lot of RAM |
| 14:43.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't ever try to run crazy PHP jobs on it! ;-) |
| 14:43.07 | rikanee | actually, unless I were to build/link large programs, e.g. Android/Firefox/Chrome/etc., I'd have swap off |
| 14:43.21 | divVerent | on SSD I never use swap... except on the N900 where it can't be avoided |
| 14:43.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | we got one on garage.m.o that used to use 5GB of ram, for nuttin |
| 14:43.32 | divVerent | but there I moved swap to an old micro SD card |
| 14:43.39 | divVerent | if it breaks from write cycles, so be it |
| 14:43.50 | divVerent | there is BTW a neat trick to "move" swap on N900 |
| 14:43.56 | divVerent | just swapon -p 1 /dev/elsewhere |
| 14:44.00 | divVerent | it will take priority over the default swap |
| 14:44.14 | *** join/#maemo fastlane` (~weezy@115.186.65.190) |
| 14:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | just that messybox original swapon doesn't take any parameters |
| 14:44.28 | divVerent | I have the swapon with parameters |
| 14:44.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly not prio |
| 14:44.30 | divVerent | no matter where from |
| 14:44.34 | divVerent | but the prio is set in /proc/swaps |
| 14:44.44 | rikanee | divVerent: with bb-power, I edited the init scripts to automatically swap to SD card if a swap partition is detected there |
| 14:45.06 | divVerent | rikanee: that I didn't dare :) |
| 14:45.30 | divVerent | the swapon I have here is from busybox, and only supports -a and -p prio options |
| 14:45.40 | divVerent | but that may be only in bb-power |
| 14:46.00 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:46.08 | rikanee | swapon -p is broken on PR1.3 busybox ;) |
| 14:46.12 | divVerent | broken how? |
| 14:46.14 | divVerent | debsums: missing file /mnt/opt/maemo/usr/share/doc/an-droid-theme/copyright (from an-droid-theme package) |
| 14:46.24 | divVerent | do I really like that error? |
| 14:46.39 | divVerent | ah, right |
| 14:46.44 | divVerent | there is this /usr/share/doc deleting hack |
| 14:46.57 | divVerent | but why is it then in the .deb in the first place? |
| 14:47.02 | divVerent | why not build the .debs with that stuff removed? |
| 14:47.17 | rikanee | divVerent: they didn't patch the packager to do so |
| 14:47.29 | rikanee | instead, it's done by a postinst cleanup script |
| 14:48.17 | divVerent | ah, and debsums doesn't apply the root to absolute symlinks |
| 14:48.21 | divVerent | explaining some other missing filles |
| 14:48.45 | divVerent | that is unfortunate |
| 14:49.41 | *** join/#maemo NIN101 (~NIN@p57B9E973.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:49.51 | divVerent | so, restarting with sshfs now using -o transform_symlinks |
| 14:50.32 | divVerent | rikanee: that sounds stupid |
| 14:50.58 | divVerent | shouldn't one rather do this on the build server creating the .debs? |
| 14:50.58 | rikanee | divVerent: just one hack in the pile of hacks that is Maemo |
| 14:51.14 | divVerent | that part should be fixable on the upload server, though |
| 14:51.17 | rikanee | ideally, it should be done as a config option in every single package |
| 14:51.28 | divVerent | in a Debian world, yes, but that is asking too much |
| 14:51.42 | divVerent | maintainers having to fix every single package to not installing docs, I do understand why that is asking too much |
| 14:51.57 | divVerent | but it isn't hard to unpack a .deb, remove the doc files AND their references in the file list, then repack it |
| 14:52.32 | divVerent | in a Debian world, packages with "big" doc already solve this by splitting it up in foo and foo-doc packages |
| 14:54.44 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 14:56.01 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 14:57.34 | divVerent | do I really WANT to see that debsums report... |
| 14:57.42 | divVerent | debsums: missing file /mnt/usr/share/man/man1/aseqdump.1.gz (from alsa-utils package) |
| 14:57.46 | divVerent | so the ALSA MIDI crap is compiled in |
| 14:57.58 | divVerent | easily wastes 500kb... |
| 15:00.51 | *** join/#maemo eddyb9 (~eddyb@unaffiliated/eddyb) |
| 15:01.38 | eddyb9 | I want to install g++-4.6 and I need libc6-dev and that also needs linux-kernel-headers |
| 15:02.12 | eddyb9 | the only way I can find to get these packages is to search for them and uses maemo.org to get a direct link |
| 15:03.34 | eddyb9 | oooh I see, the pool thing confused me. so I am indeed looking at the freemantle free sdk repo |
| 15:11.01 | eddyb9 | yay installing with the new repos |
| 15:12.18 | eddyb9 | I wanted C++ mostly for installing fish |
| 15:12.54 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: I see the issue with debsums again |
| 15:13.07 | divVerent | right, it is in Perl - and starts with a screenful of "use" statements |
| 15:13.11 | *** join/#maemo netkat (~me@80.79.126.176) |
| 15:13.20 | divVerent | no chance to port that to Maemo... even if you do succeed, you need like 10 more packagves |
| 15:13.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh backlog, tl;dr |
| 15:13.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | wazzup? |
| 15:14.38 | divVerent | I have up running debsums over this pipe... does take way too long |
| 15:14.58 | divVerent | will do it when my real PC is there... which has big enough disk to run a debian chroot :) |
| 15:15.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: you're aware that we, when pondering how to add karma from IRC, conisdered to give *negative* karma for more than 3 consecutive posts from same guy without anybody answering? |
| 15:16.09 | divVerent | no, was not aware... I normally prefer to break lines early |
| 15:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | users tend to ignore long monologues |
| 15:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | (I know I'm not the one who's always aware of that truth either) |
| 15:17.49 | *** join/#maemo FlameReaper (~assassin@175.138.126.168) |
| 15:18.20 | divVerent | anyway, now trying to run debsums on my eeepc... which runs Arch linux though |
| 15:18.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 15:19.08 | divVerent | it looks like File::FnMatch isn't even packaged for Arch |
| 15:20.18 | eddyb9 | apt-get dist-upgrade with that sdk repo wants to remove most of my packages :( |
| 15:21.21 | divVerent | no, it heavily assumes to be able to call the dpkg binary |
| 15:21.32 | divVerent | eddyb9: known issue, don't dist-upgrade |
| 15:21.38 | eddyb9 | dammit |
| 15:21.57 | divVerent | but normally dist-upgrade just fails resolving conflicts at all :) |
| 15:21.58 | eddyb9 | I want to switch over to a cssu (maybe thumb) repo |
| 15:22.08 | divVerent | oh, THAT is not to be done via dist-upgrade anyway |
| 15:22.14 | divVerent | please undo your previous reposiotry adding |
| 15:22.19 | eddyb9 | hmm? |
| 15:22.21 | divVerent | and follow the documentation on cssu/cssu-thumb directly |
| 15:22.25 | divVerent | it works totally different |
| 15:22.30 | eddyb9 | what do you mean? |
| 15:22.38 | divVerent | you are supposed to use some .install file |
| 15:22.38 | eddyb9 | how different? |
| 15:22.44 | divVerent | which then will graphically bring your system to CSSU |
| 15:22.49 | divVerent | via HAM |
| 15:23.06 | divVerent | if you do it just by apt means, it won't do some reconfiguring required by the upgrade |
| 15:23.13 | eddyb9 | but that uses apt sources, doesn't it? |
| 15:23.30 | divVerent | not only that |
| 15:23.38 | eddyb9 | well, ham wasn't doing anything last time I tried |
| 15:24.19 | eddyb9 | maybe it was, but this darn debian crap isn't transparent enough |
| 15:24.48 | eddyb9 | apt-get is so bad compared to zypper, and aptitude doesn't do much better |
| 15:25.10 | divVerent | you just aren't supposed to add a repository at all for this |
| 15:25.20 | divVerent | you install a specific file you get on the page explaining CSSU (don't have the link here) |
| 15:25.46 | divVerent | this will add the repository, and set up some other stuff |
| 15:25.51 | eddyb9 | yes |
| 15:26.01 | divVerent | also, there is a so-called CSSU Enabler you will have to run |
| 15:26.04 | divVerent | see the step by step instructions |
| 15:26.11 | eddyb9 | but it's not transparent and I can't even see what happened afterwards |
| 15:26.17 | divVerent | you can read the scripts |
| 15:26.20 | divVerent | it indeed is not transparent |
| 15:26.22 | eddyb9 | derp |
| 15:26.23 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 15:26.29 | divVerent | you should just do it like the docs say |
| 15:26.58 | eddyb9 | sudo zypper se | grep thumb |
| 15:27.09 | eddyb9 | that would tell me which packages are thumb |
| 15:27.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 15:27.30 | infobot | cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 15:27.33 | eddyb9 | or with -s, I can also see which packages have thumb versions that aren't installed |
| 15:28.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo doesn't work like any other usual debian distro, when it comes to repostiories and package management |
| 15:29.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | not like any RPM based distro either |
| 15:29.33 | eddyb9 | so it's even worse. I like to know what state my packages are in |
| 15:30.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | loom into HAM and there on "uninstall" - all packages meant to maybe get uninstalled by user are listed there |
| 15:30.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | that'S about as much as you can get to know about 2state of packages" |
| 15:30.49 | eddyb9 | if a package gets a thumb version after I do this, I can't just automatically upgrade to that |
| 15:30.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | plus of course there's apt-cache policy |
| 15:31.25 | eddyb9 | also ham is the slowest thing ever |
| 15:31.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, there's some reason for that |
| 15:31.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | it does stuff apt-get doesn't |
| 15:32.01 | *** join/#maemo xmlich02 (~imlich@20.158.broadband10.iol.cz) |
| 15:32.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's usually nothing wrong in apr-get install |
| 15:32.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you never should touch any of the other apt-get commands |
| 15:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | as a rule of thumb (except apt-get update ;-D ) |
| 15:33.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you should also never edit the catalog/repo files directly |
| 15:34.05 | eddyb9 | I changed sources.list to add the sdk repos |
| 15:34.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | BZZZ already a mistake |
| 15:34.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally |
| 15:34.48 | rikanee | eddyb9, DANGER! DANGER! |
| 15:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | even two mistakes |
| 15:35.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | sdk repo isn't meant for target platform |
| 15:35.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | you might replace maemo5 core stuff by emulations for scratchbox/qemu |
| 15:36.27 | eddyb9 | :/ |
| 15:36.38 | eddyb9 | but I wanted g++ |
| 15:36.53 | eddyb9 | and you can't install it without sdk |
| 15:36.55 | rikanee | eddyb9: do it in a chroot |
| 15:37.02 | eddyb9 | srsly? |
| 15:37.03 | rikanee | GCC doesn't like being optified |
| 15:37.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, then build a proper deb pkg on SDK, with all dependencies, and install it on N900 |
| 15:38.08 | eddyb9 | gcc works fine, but g++ has a broken secondary dependency |
| 15:38.29 | eddyb9 | which is like bad package maintenance |
| 15:38.46 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 15:40.50 | eddyb9 | why does everyone screw up linux on mobile? |
| 15:56.54 | ShadowJK | The sdk repo is not compatible with device repos |
| 15:57.38 | divVerent | eddyb9: because they can |
| 15:57.45 | ShadowJK | I wish someone would package gcc though, compile it with --prefix=/opt/gcc/ or something :) |
| 15:57.49 | divVerent | why doesn't any real linux distro make a mobile OS? |
| 15:57.59 | divVerent | (no, Ubuntu Phone does not count, that is still Android) |
| 16:05.46 | eddyb9 | ubuntu are doing the craziest shit |
| 16:05.58 | Sc0rpius | why an Ubuntu Phone is still Android????? |
| 16:06.25 | eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: because they cheated |
| 16:06.29 | eddyb9 | and maybe lied |
| 16:07.29 | eddyb9 | openSUSE has releases for ARM boards, and I wouldn't be surprised if I could get it working on N900, but the nokia closed source stuff would be a PITA |
| 16:08.44 | Sc0rpius | I still don't get why people say Ubuntu Phones are Androids when they are clearly not |
| 16:10.03 | eddyb9 | you clearly not know the crap canonical is doing |
| 16:10.25 | Sc0rpius | NOBODY knows |
| 16:10.37 | Sc0rpius | there are just rumors |
| 16:10.46 | eddyb9 | what? |
| 16:12.22 | Sc0rpius | nobody has seen an Ubuntu phone so nobody knows how they really are |
| 16:12.39 | Sc0rpius | and people is way misinformed |
| 16:12.44 | Sc0rpius | people say "Ubuntu phones can't make calls right now" |
| 16:12.53 | Sc0rpius | WHICH Ubuntu phone if there is NONE available |
| 16:13.04 | Sc0rpius | Canonical already said by the end of March they are going to show a fully-functional phone |
| 16:13.10 | eddyb9 | http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ubuntu-for-android |
| 16:13.16 | Sc0rpius | THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!! |
| 16:13.27 | Sc0rpius | DON'T YOU EVER confuse Ubuntu for Android with Ubuntu Phone!! |
| 16:13.42 | Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android is something you can install in Android phones |
| 16:13.50 | eddyb9 | oh my, aren't you mad |
| 16:13.52 | Sc0rpius | Ubuntu Phone is a whole new device with NATIVE Linux running on it and NO JAVA |
| 16:14.03 | Sc0rpius | see? |
| 16:14.07 | Sc0rpius | I knew you were misinformed. |
| 16:14.28 | GeneralAntilles | Except there's no Ubuntu Phone yet |
| 16:14.33 | GeneralAntilles | So how can you know? |
| 16:14.41 | Sc0rpius | those are my lines!! |
| 16:14.50 | Sc0rpius | http://www.zdnet.com/canonical-to-dogfood-ubuntu-smartphones-before-end-of-may-7000015204/ |
| 16:15.10 | Sc0rpius | and that's not a Samsung running Ubuntu for Android (a total different SOFTWARE product) |
| 16:15.10 | GeneralAntilles | Yeah, I'll believe it all when I see it. |
| 16:15.18 | GeneralAntilles | Canonical being Canonical |
| 16:15.23 | Sc0rpius | yeah well everybody said the same about Jolla and Jolla showed their phone |
| 16:15.29 | Sc0rpius | now it's Canonical's turn |
| 16:15.34 | Sc0rpius | they will show the phone |
| 16:15.46 | eddyb9 | http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ |
| 16:15.51 | Sc0rpius | have you see polls? worldwide people is more likely to support an Ubuntu phone (known brand, etc) than a Jolla phone |
| 16:16.13 | eddyb9 | between the weasel words it says android |
| 16:16.13 | Sc0rpius | eddyb9, now that's the link you should be reading :) |
| 16:16.13 | eddyb9 | it's obvious what they're doing |
| 16:16.13 | Sc0rpius | it is NOT Android. |
| 16:16.20 | eddyb9 | ubuntu for android is a subpage of that |
| 16:16.29 | Sc0rpius | it's a different product |
| 16:16.53 | eddyb9 | they're running a mutated linux on top of android |
| 16:17.09 | Sc0rpius | that's the Ubuntu for Android which you can install since ages in your Android phone |
| 16:17.09 | eddyb9 | you'll see |
| 16:17.11 | Sc0rpius | that exists since AGES |
| 16:17.23 | Sc0rpius | it's not the same thing |
| 16:17.34 | Sc0rpius | Ubuntu Phone uses a whole different OS called Ubuntu Touch |
| 16:17.51 | Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android runs on a phone running Android. It's an APP, it's not a whole OS. It's just an app |
| 16:18.19 | eddyb9 | loool wtf? |
| 16:18.25 | Sc0rpius | before June 1st Canonical will show the phone |
| 16:18.28 | eddyb9 | QML? |
| 16:18.36 | *** join/#maemo mvp (~mvp@194.182.142.5) |
| 16:19.03 | Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android is like that EasyDebian in the N900 |
| 16:19.05 | Sc0rpius | exactly the same |
| 16:19.14 | Sc0rpius | but for Android phones of course |
| 16:19.19 | eddyb9 | ubuntu, using Qt? |
| 16:19.24 | eddyb9 | popcorn |
| 16:19.35 | Sc0rpius | yes. The Ubuntu Phone using Ubuntu Touch OS uses Qt. |
| 16:20.55 | eddyb9 | but won't they get all the hate in the world as they are the largest gnome userbase? |
| 16:21.28 | Sc0rpius | having the "ubuntu" name on it, it's pretty unlikely it'll get hate |
| 16:21.34 | Sc0rpius | except for purist geeks |
| 16:21.48 | GeneralAntilles | I don't think Canonical actually has a device |
| 16:21.49 | Sc0rpius | and let's be hones purist geeks is like 0.056% of the potential buyers. |
| 16:21.55 | GeneralAntilles | They're chasing OEMs |
| 16:22.18 | eddyb9 | lol, purist geeks |
| 16:22.24 | eddyb9 | and ubuntu in the name |
| 16:22.24 | GeneralAntilles | And their hardware support has some relation to linhybris. |
| 16:22.48 | eddyb9 | they want to abuse android drivers |
| 16:22.48 | Sc0rpius | maybe they'll show the OS in an existing device |
| 16:22.58 | eddyb9 | of course they will |
| 16:23.04 | Sc0rpius | but not OVER Android |
| 16:23.15 | Sc0rpius | totally replacing it instead. |
| 16:23.20 | eddyb9 | that's what it says on the front page, between the weasel words |
| 16:23.25 | eddyb9 | not totally |
| 16:23.47 | Sc0rpius | Android hardware without dalvik VM = WIN |
| 16:25.18 | eddyb9 | good luck getting QML JITed |
| 16:25.27 | Sc0rpius | it is not running Java... |
| 16:25.42 | eddyb9 | not sure what QtScript is using right now behind the scenes |
| 16:25.45 | Sc0rpius | you're just being stubborn and hateful against something you have yet to see |
| 16:25.54 | eddyb9 | dude |
| 16:25.55 | Sc0rpius | we need to be open |
| 16:26.00 | eddyb9 | QML is JavaScript |
| 16:26.04 | Sc0rpius | open to Jolla, open to Ubuntu Phone |
| 16:26.09 | eddyb9 | with some syntax changes |
| 16:26.19 | Sc0rpius | it is JavaScript based but it is not JavaScript. |
| 16:26.59 | eddyb9 | I know because I use kde4. I like Qt, and if anything good comes out of this ubuntu fuckup is a win for Qt |
| 16:27.02 | Sc0rpius | the thing is, like I said in the forums |
| 16:27.14 | Sc0rpius | Jolla is destined to die if the software companies don't support it |
| 16:27.19 | eddyb9 | yes and they use a JS engine |
| 16:27.27 | Sc0rpius | but they will blindly support something that has "ubuntu" on it |
| 16:27.29 | eddyb9 | let me check exactly which one |
| 16:27.42 | Sc0rpius | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:27.52 | eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: that's almost as bad as windows mobile |
| 16:28.10 | eddyb9 | I don't want support for a shitty linux distro, I want generic support |
| 16:28.17 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:28.32 | Sc0rpius | I know you want a Linux distro but |
| 16:28.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: are you available for a short test? |
| 16:28.42 | Sc0rpius | if you're objective a Windows Phone is great for the general phone user |
| 16:28.45 | Sc0rpius | (not for the geek) |
| 16:28.57 | Sc0rpius | and Windows Phone have support, every app exists for Windows Phone |
| 16:29.08 | Sc0rpius | will every app exist for Jolla? I doubt it will get a WhatsApp. |
| 16:29.14 | eddyb9 | we can't have progress without hackers |
| 16:29.19 | Sc0rpius | I doubt it will get an Instagram |
| 16:29.28 | ShadowJK | instagram doesn't exist on windows phone ;-) |
| 16:29.34 | Sc0rpius | and those kind of apps are the apps that make the phone sell |
| 16:29.38 | Sc0rpius | and if the phone don't sell, the phone dies,. |
| 16:29.44 | eddyb9 | pfft |
| 16:29.45 | ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; well, at bbq party with refreshments |
| 16:29.48 | eddyb9 | fuck consumerism |
| 16:30.24 | Sc0rpius | there's something called Itsdagram for Windows Phone hehehe |
| 16:30.33 | Sc0rpius | which is a fully functional Instagram client |
| 16:30.43 | Sc0rpius | eddyb9, we're talking about a business |
| 16:30.51 | Sc0rpius | and Jolla wants to make a business out of it |
| 16:30.59 | Sc0rpius | not just make happy 50.000 geeks around the world |
| 16:31.47 | Sc0rpius | when there are 500 million iOS devices around the world <--- that's the number they want |
| 16:31.53 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:31.53 | Sc0rpius | that's the number everybody wants (even Ubuntu Phones) |
| 16:32.41 | eddyb9 | you don't start a revolution like that |
| 16:32.53 | eddyb9 | silly silly half-assed penguins |
| 16:33.06 | Sc0rpius | if Jolla knows something about this is that if they make a phone 100% targetted to geeks they will be out of business in less than a year |
| 16:33.15 | Sc0rpius | like the N900/N9 |
| 16:33.30 | Sc0rpius | they have to make something good for both worlds: the geeks and the average phone user |
| 16:33.43 | Sc0rpius | that's why by the way they have to ditch hardware keyboard. |
| 16:33.55 | ruskie | they are somewhat dodgy when talking about a keyboarded jolla device |
| 16:33.59 | Sc0rpius | even if we would love a hardware keyboard, that would cut the sells in 75% |
| 16:34.13 | Sc0rpius | they know they have to ditch the keyboard. |
| 16:34.21 | eddyb9 | o_O QML switched to v8 |
| 16:34.22 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 16:34.28 | ruskie | there apparently is some work being done on "other half" for a keyboard option |
| 16:34.36 | eddyb9 | which means crazy fast even on ARM |
| 16:34.37 | Sc0rpius | the device won't be appealing with a hardware keyboard. |
| 16:34.54 | Sc0rpius | I want the hardware keyboard |
| 16:34.58 | Sc0rpius | but I know it's very unlikely. |
| 16:35.06 | ruskie | I don't really see why it wouldn't be appealing with a HW kb |
| 16:35.21 | ruskie | if done correctly it could be good |
| 16:35.23 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:35.34 | Sc0rpius | ask your 15 years old daughter if she would want one with a hw keyboard |
| 16:35.40 | eddyb9 | wait, what, they're replacing v8? |
| 16:35.52 | Sc0rpius | and the way she thinks, it's the way 500 millions iOS users think, and you want to sell your phone to 500 million users. |
| 16:36.01 | ruskie | Sc0rpius, if I had one the most shou would have would be a nokia s40 device |
| 16:36.20 | Sc0rpius | she would say "I want an iPhone 5" :/ like all teenagers say. |
| 16:36.23 | ruskie | unless she bought it with her own money |
| 16:36.27 | Sc0rpius | hahaha |
| 16:36.28 | ruskie | Sc0rpius, not really |
| 16:36.38 | ruskie | Sc0rpius, someone's kid in this building bought a lumia |
| 16:36.44 | ruskie | ~15 or so years old |
| 16:36.46 | Sc0rpius | Lumia's are GREAT |
| 16:36.49 | Sc0rpius | (for kids) |
| 16:36.58 | Sc0rpius | dude I saw a Nokia Lumia 920 in action |
| 16:37.03 | Sc0rpius | and it's great for those kids |
| 16:37.07 | Sc0rpius | but then you install SSH client |
| 16:37.09 | Sc0rpius | you connect |
| 16:37.16 | Sc0rpius | you switch application let's say somebody messaged you |
| 16:37.19 | Sc0rpius | ---- connection dropped |
| 16:37.23 | Sc0rpius | and that sucks. |
| 16:37.33 | *** join/#maemo sardini (~halXI@2a01:e35:1386:4120:c867:6692:d059:45f8) |
| 16:37.38 | ruskie | well atleast with android that has a chance of surviving |
| 16:37.38 | Sc0rpius | since there's no real multitasking and not even event handlers for sockets they can't stay connected |
| 16:37.44 | eddyb9 | seriously |
| 16:37.46 | Sc0rpius | everything has to be coded "push oriented" |
| 16:37.55 | Sc0rpius | they save hours of battery like that |
| 16:37.59 | Sc0rpius | but that frustrates me |
| 16:38.16 | eddyb9 | what's wrong with a device where you can use the hw keyboard, but it's optional? |
| 16:38.26 | ruskie | absolutely nothing |
| 16:38.39 | Sc0rpius | you'll have to carry the keyboard around = annoying |
| 16:38.42 | ruskie | if they can make the "other half" a sliding keyboard option it would be fantastinc I'd say |
| 16:38.44 | eddyb9 | wat |
| 16:38.45 | Sc0rpius | unless it's something you can dock in the device |
| 16:39.01 | ruskie | Sc0rpius, you are aware they have this "other half" thingy with jolla |
| 16:39.01 | eddyb9 | carry around the keyboard? |
| 16:39.05 | ruskie | basically a custom back cover |
| 16:39.19 | Sc0rpius | yeah they invade twitter with "other half" ads |
| 16:39.20 | ruskie | I'd say a keyboard for that isn't out of the question |
| 16:39.31 | eddyb9 | N900 only needs to be slimmer |
| 16:39.39 | Sc0rpius | if they find an appealing way to do it, I hope they will. |
| 16:39.40 | eddyb9 | and it's already touch or hw kb |
| 16:39.52 | ruskie | http://jollatides.com/2013/05/23/share-your-ideas-your-dream-other-half/ |
| 16:40.02 | eddyb9 | what would be wrong with a slimmer N900? |
| 16:40.39 | eddyb9 | there's this "leaked" design for the succesor of N9, best phone I've ever seen |
| 16:41.52 | eddyb9 | http://mynokiablog.com/2012/09/04/leaked-prototype-nokia-lauta-rm-742-cancelled-immediate-n9-successor/ |
| 16:42.07 | eddyb9 | the keyboard is non-intrusive |
| 16:42.16 | eddyb9 | what would be wrong with that? |
| 16:42.34 | ruskie | that looks nice |
| 16:42.38 | ruskie | I'd grab one of those |
| 16:42.43 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:42.59 | eddyb9 | seriously, more design, less corporate crap (like closed source), less forced user pleasing |
| 16:43.34 | eddyb9 | the things geeks would like also affect a large share of the market, but less visibly |
| 16:44.31 | eddyb9 | android is kinda good because it gives you more freedom (if rooted) and even if I despise Java, the dalvik thing is working good for them |
| 16:45.54 | eddyb9 | if I could do everything I've ever wanted (or at least the simple things), the world would be a better place :-< |
| 16:46.39 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:46.47 | eddyb9 | I know how to run windows phone apps alongside android and native PC linux apps |
| 16:47.00 | Sc0rpius | that Lauta is nice |
| 16:47.10 | *** join/#maemo mikki-kun (~mikki-kun@unaffiliated/mikki-kun) |
| 16:47.22 | Apic | eddyb9: The World _is_ a good Place, just the _People_ suck. |
| 16:47.36 | eddyb9 | it needs some work, but less work than each of those platforms needs |
| 16:49.11 | eddyb9 | I've been knowing some magic for a while now, and I've been trying to do some things, like break crypto (that failed and is postponed until NP=P), write an web IDE or a decompiler |
| 16:49.59 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:50.05 | eddyb9 | the last one is the current one, but I have a track record of not finishing things and also being crappy at doing more than a week of work in the time of a few months |
| 16:50.16 | Sc0rpius | decompiler for what? |
| 16:50.25 | eddyb9 | everything executable |
| 16:50.40 | Sc0rpius | good luck with that |
| 16:51.05 | eddyb9 | best choice right now is to spend $4k for IDA Pro and HexRays, which are useless most of the time |
| 16:51.14 | Sc0rpius | IDA pro is great |
| 16:51.18 | eddyb9 | hahaha |
| 16:51.21 | eddyb9 | noob |
| 16:51.37 | divVerent | eddyb9: you do know that you can solve any NP problem in polynomial time by making use of Moore's Law? |
| 16:51.41 | Sc0rpius | I've been using it for ages, specially for ARM |
| 16:51.48 | *** join/#maemo dreamer (~henk@melange.soleus.nu) |
| 16:51.49 | Sc0rpius | IDA is not a decompiler, but a disassembler/debugger, not the same thing |
| 16:52.12 | eddyb9 | hexrays claims to be |
| 16:52.20 | eddyb9 | but they're both crap |
| 16:52.24 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 16:52.44 | Sc0rpius | all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ |
| 16:53.01 | Sc0rpius | since it really depends on the compiler how you can decompile things |
| 16:53.21 | eddyb9 | I had a x86 backend in a couple of days, and in another few days I had working stack analysis |
| 16:53.28 | eddyb9 | which IDA doesn't have |
| 16:53.37 | eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: common misconception |
| 16:53.41 | Sc0rpius | now a decompiler for Android or .NET (like Windows Phone apps) will show perfect codes but there are already way too many decompilers for that |
| 16:54.20 | Sc0rpius | well I'm not sure if you know how compilers work |
| 16:54.28 | eddyb9 | that's because those have bytecode formats that require type information |
| 16:54.53 | Sc0rpius | but at least you should agree that a single C line of code will be assembled different in gcc compared to other compiler |
| 16:55.16 | eddyb9 | it will be assembled differently in different versions of gcc |
| 16:55.22 | Sc0rpius | a decompiler would have to guess which compiler was used and guess what was the original C line |
| 16:55.23 | Sc0rpius | exactly |
| 16:55.29 | Sc0rpius | and if you use -O options in gcc |
| 16:55.36 | eddyb9 | and in the same version with different optimization levels |
| 16:55.56 | eddyb9 | ok, you're not dumb, but I'm slow because xchat on N900 |
| 16:56.23 | eddyb9 | but the thing is... |
| 16:56.45 | eddyb9 | the processor will do similar operations no matter the compiler |
| 16:56.50 | eddyb9 | or the platform |
| 16:57.27 | eddyb9 | you only have a problem if you have legacy disasm, which is what IDA gives you for two thousand dollars |
| 16:58.07 | Sc0rpius | well since most people that use IDA don't use it for legal reasons most people don't get IDA in legal ways ;) |
| 16:58.52 | eddyb9 | if I wasn't this fucked up with school & stuff, I would've had a web interface with more of C-like output, already |
| 16:59.35 | Sc0rpius | like Bill Gates said (or shoud have said9 |
| 16:59.46 | Sc0rpius | "assembler ought to be enough for everybody" |
| 16:59.57 | Sc0rpius | :) |
| 17:00.02 | Sc0rpius | so you don't really need a decompiler |
| 17:00.18 | eddyb9 | so you're ignorant |
| 17:01.14 | eddyb9 | wIDE would be finished already, too. awesome code manipulation :-< |
| 17:01.40 | Sc0rpius | an ignorant because I can read assembler and don't need C code? |
| 17:01.51 | Sc0rpius | I've been cracking software since I'm 8 years old and I'm almost 40! |
| 17:02.07 | Sc0rpius | even before x86 processors were out |
| 17:02.20 | eddyb9 | you're ignorant because you think you can do things in assembly |
| 17:02.20 | Sc0rpius | disassembling for Z80, MC6502, MC6809E, etc the real processors at the time :) |
| 17:02.25 | Sc0rpius | I can |
| 17:02.30 | Sc0rpius | want a demo? |
| 17:02.36 | eddyb9 | I'll give you a binary |
| 17:02.54 | Sc0rpius | I can show you an uTorrent with several new options everything done in assembler. |
| 17:03.08 | Sc0rpius | and actually the original uTorrent executable was encrypted. |
| 17:03.13 | eddyb9 | find me where it reads a .lyc file and tell me what it does with it |
| 17:03.21 | eddyb9 | hah, encrypted |
| 17:03.21 | *** join/#maemo fastlane` (~weezy@115.186.66.52) |
| 17:03.23 | Sc0rpius | you NEVER recompile and executable you want to modify |
| 17:03.35 | Sc0rpius | NEVER |
| 17:03.51 | Sc0rpius | you patch it in assembler, always. |
| 17:04.13 | Sc0rpius | actually introducing the op code in an hex editor, not really "assembling" |
| 17:04.34 | eddyb9 | patching is easy |
| 17:04.48 | eddyb9 | figuring out where to patch can be hard |
| 17:04.50 | Sc0rpius | if you have unobfuscated/unencrypted code: yes |
| 17:05.06 | eddyb9 | you go through 4 levels of factories and vtables |
| 17:05.12 | Sc0rpius | the problem comes when the executables are encrypted |
| 17:05.18 | eddyb9 | without a decompiler to help you |
| 17:05.25 | eddyb9 | encryption is a minor annoyance |
| 17:05.41 | eddyb9 | as they always need to be decrypted by something to work |
| 17:06.02 | eddyb9 | same for unpackers |
| 17:07.09 | Sc0rpius | but if you need C code |
| 17:07.18 | Sc0rpius | then there must be something wrong in you |
| 17:07.24 | Sc0rpius | reading assembler is more than enough if you're a real cracked |
| 17:07.26 | Sc0rpius | cracker |
| 17:07.58 | eddyb9 | no it isn't |
| 17:08.12 | eddyb9 | it's actually trivial to screw with you |
| 17:08.52 | eddyb9 | a few characters of C code can generate more than a hundred instructions with -O3 |
| 17:09.03 | Sc0rpius | do you really think the people that are patching games and software for PC everyday are using decompilers? |
| 17:09.12 | eddyb9 | mix in some real operations in there and you'll need a blackboard |
| 17:09.15 | Sc0rpius | because they aren't. |
| 17:09.30 | eddyb9 | they're using shitty stuff like hexrays and they're miserable |
| 17:09.40 | Sc0rpius | they don't use hexrays. |
| 17:09.46 | Sc0rpius | they don't even use IDA if it's x86. |
| 17:09.51 | Sc0rpius | they use something called ollydbg |
| 17:10.13 | eddyb9 | lol that older PoS |
| 17:10.26 | Sc0rpius | still unbeatable in Windows :) |
| 17:10.28 | Sc0rpius | not even by IDA |
| 17:10.40 | eddyb9 | I reverse engineered the Battle.Net2 protocol in one day with IDA |
| 17:10.46 | eddyb9 | found out how much it sucks |
| 17:11.25 | eddyb9 | and I know a community of real reverse engineers, I know for sure there's a need for a real decompiler |
| 17:11.34 | Sc0rpius | I don't think so. |
| 17:11.53 | Sc0rpius | unless it's a higher level language like .NET or Java but there are already way too many decompilers for that. |
| 17:12.52 | eddyb9 | why am I even talking to you... |
| 17:13.26 | divVerent | ollydbg is a debugger, but not a full flow analyzing disassembler |
| 17:13.29 | eddyb9 | because of people like you, we don't have tools |
| 17:13.30 | divVerent | different tools,different purpose |
| 17:13.49 | Sc0rpius | true |
| 17:13.54 | Sc0rpius | eddyb9, we don't need them |
| 17:13.57 | divVerent | used ollydbg a lot even for open source |
| 17:14.03 | divVerent | because windows' own crash reports suck |
| 17:14.06 | Sc0rpius | that's why they don't exist |
| 17:14.13 | eddyb9 | you don't need them |
| 17:14.14 | divVerent | but telling people to use ollydbg and make screenshot tends to help |
| 17:14.16 | Sc0rpius | ollydbg is great |
| 17:14.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and because of statemements like this, we have no calm and productive mood in IRC channels |
| 17:14.26 | Sc0rpius | I still use it |
| 17:14.47 | eddyb9 | you go ahead and find vulns in chromium. in assembly |
| 17:14.54 | Sc0rpius | why would I? |
| 17:14.59 | Sc0rpius | they won't pay me a single cent for that |
| 17:15.17 | eddyb9 | then shut up |
| 17:15.30 | Sc0rpius | I don't think you understand how the world works |
| 17:15.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: behave! |
| 17:15.42 | Sc0rpius | if there's a need -> then became the solution, not backwards |
| 17:15.43 | divVerent | also, I doubt a good decompiler for modern compiled C will ever exist |
| 17:15.49 | divVerent | but if anyone wants to try, I won't stop them |
| 17:15.59 | Sc0rpius | divVerent, it's not possible is the first thing I said |
| 17:16.06 | divVerent | it may be POSSIBLE |
| 17:16.15 | divVerent | brute force any possible C files, compile with all possible flags, compare :) |
| 17:16.26 | eddyb9 | divVerent: I'm not talking "I want source code" decompilation |
| 17:16.27 | Sc0rpius | 31<Sc0rpius>30 all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ |
| 17:16.38 | eddyb9 | I'm talking practical decompilation |
| 17:16.39 | divVerent | but current C/C++ compilers do so crazy optimizations |
| 17:16.45 | Sc0rpius | you would have like a library of all compilers behaviors somehow coded in your decompiler. |
| 17:16.46 | divVerent | it's near impossible to get back to even similar source |
| 17:16.56 | eddyb9 | most of the optimizations are easy to revert |
| 17:16.58 | divVerent | but if anyone succeeds, it'd be very interesting |
| 17:17.05 | Sc0rpius | yeah |
| 17:17.09 | Sc0rpius | and that's why I insist: |
| 17:17.15 | Sc0rpius | <Sc0rpius> good luck with that |
| 17:17.36 | Sc0rpius | but now swaying there's a NEED for a C/C++ decompiler... that's wrong. |
| 17:17.55 | divVerent | actually |
| 17:18.02 | divVerent | there is more need of a nice annotating disassembler |
| 17:18.06 | divVerent | that not just does what IDA does |
| 17:18.08 | Sc0rpius | I agree |
| 17:18.13 | divVerent | but also shows explanations of obscure instructions |
| 17:18.22 | divVerent | basically IDA + google |
| 17:18.25 | Sc0rpius | saying there's a need of a C/C++ decompiler only shows lack of experience in assembly, that's all. |
| 17:18.31 | eddyb9 | academics and people who do RE for a living agree with me |
| 17:18.36 | Sc0rpius | get more experience, practice more, read more. Buy books. |
| 17:18.44 | eddyb9 | divVerent: I already have something much better than that |
| 17:18.52 | eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: but a human can fail |
| 17:19.02 | Sc0rpius | the decompiler will fail more :) |
| 17:19.23 | eddyb9 | ISAs are quite complex, and malware writers abuse this a lot |
| 17:20.07 | eddyb9 | the decompiler won't fail |
| 17:20.22 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:20.32 | Apic | ISA? |
| 17:20.41 | eddyb9 | instruction set architecture |
| 17:20.43 | Apic | ic |
| 17:22.27 | eddyb9 | IDA (and disassemblers in general) can't even tell you if a function ever returns |
| 17:22.45 | eddyb9 | or where it can return |
| 17:22.57 | Apic | *nod* |
| 17:23.02 | Apic | So Live-Debugging is to prefer. |
| 17:23.16 | Apic | But IDA does have a Debugger integrated also since quite some Time. |
| 17:23.17 | eddyb9 | but you can't debug everything |
| 17:23.21 | Apic | True. |
| 17:23.21 | Sc0rpius | well back to Yappari, which by the way was created reversing official WhatsApp clients. |
| 17:23.24 | Sc0rpius | so bbl |
| 17:23.54 | eddyb9 | you can do so many things with executable code |
| 17:24.09 | eddyb9 | it's just silly to throw away the potential |
| 17:24.28 | eddyb9 | a free, open-source, decompiler |
| 17:24.39 | eddyb9 | not perfect, but correct |
| 17:25.09 | *** join/#maemo APTX (APTX@unaffiliated/aptx) |
| 17:25.23 | eddyb9 | with a clean, easy to interact with, interface |
| 17:26.07 | eddyb9 | if only I wasn't this big fuckup that never gets anything done |
| 17:26.43 | eddyb9 | and I may fail this year of highschool because geography (geopolitic crap, mostly) |
| 17:31.43 | divVerent | You know what we need a LOT MORE than a C decompiler? |
| 17:31.50 | divVerent | a C binary vs source code comparer :) |
| 17:31.59 | divVerent | to see if gcc screwed up again |
| 17:33.10 | divVerent | haha, a "not perfect, but correct" decompiler is also known as disassembler... just change every "mov a, b" into "a = b;" |
| 17:34.03 | Apic | B-) |
| 17:34.13 | Apic | I love Assembly. |
| 17:34.47 | divVerent | in fact, for QuakeC I wanted to make such a thing... I already have a binary analyzer that does quite some static analysis, detect unused/uninitialized values, etc. |
| 17:35.04 | divVerent | and it prints out QCVM assembly... I did want to write a second output that transforms the instruction 1:1 into QC |
| 17:35.39 | divVerent | so the analyzer is also useful to people who don't want to learn in which argument order STORE_F works :) |
| 17:36.56 | Sc0rpius | so you want a translator |
| 17:37.05 | Sc0rpius | and that would be cool if it's multiprocessor |
| 17:37.21 | Sc0rpius | that is translate assembly code from several processors to a standard "more human readable" code |
| 17:37.23 | Sc0rpius | not necessary C |
| 17:37.24 | divVerent | the main issue why people want a decompiler is that Intel assembly got so convoluted |
| 17:37.28 | Sc0rpius | something more easily to understand |
| 17:37.32 | divVerent | especially the MMX/SSE instructions can get quite obscure |
| 17:37.32 | Sc0rpius | that would be nice |
| 17:37.52 | Sc0rpius | you define a standard "assembly" code human readable with things like "a = b" and stuff |
| 17:38.06 | Sc0rpius | and then you make translators for x86, ARM, etc to THAT standard human code you just defined |
| 17:38.13 | Sc0rpius | that's a very good idea |
| 17:38.21 | divVerent | even better if it has some heuristics to read SSE code, e.g. notices dot products and matrix multiplications |
| 17:38.34 | Sc0rpius | of course it will not be a 1 instruction = 1 line of code |
| 17:38.49 | Sc0rpius | but something like 10 MMX instructions = 1 line of simple human readable math code |
| 17:39.29 | Sc0rpius | that's a very good idea |
| 17:39.42 | divVerent | even 1:1 would work |
| 17:40.12 | Sc0rpius | yeah but simple loops would be nice to be read as "fors" and "whiles" and the like |
| 17:41.11 | Apic | I love QEMU |
| 17:41.22 | Apic | Emulators in general |
| 17:41.25 | Apic | DosBox rules too |
| 17:42.34 | Sc0rpius | these very lines I'm typing are being sent through an X-Chat running on a VMWare VM with Ubuntu 12.04.01 full screen in the second monitor of a Windows 8 host |
| 17:42.50 | Sc0rpius | runs both worlds at the same time |
| 17:45.50 | Apic | I type inside a UserModeLinux-VM |
| 17:48.09 | divVerent | even 1:1 would work |
| 17:48.13 | divVerent | sorry |
| 17:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: ooh! "a = b" is not assembler? |
| 17:50.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | Well, maybe not ARM assembler |
| 17:51.19 | kerio | Sc0rpius: neat idea |
| 17:51.21 | kerio | we could call it C |
| 17:53.46 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: look at id software's quake code |
| 17:53.54 | divVerent | their compiler was so buggy, theybasiclaly wrote in C-like assembler |
| 17:53.59 | divVerent | only one operation in each line |
| 17:57.14 | divVerent | https://github.com/RobSis/quake-portal-gun/blob/master/src/weapons.qc#L420 just look at this function |
| 17:57.50 | divVerent | and observe two bugs right at the top (the normalize() call is a bug too, as QuakeC has no pass by reference) |
| 17:59.07 | *** part/#maemo valeriusN (root@sms.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 18:00.00 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:11.32 | *** join/#maemo ron0062000 (~ron006200@cpe-72-181-242-49.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 18:16.03 | *** join/#maemo zammy (~sammy@ppp-28-149.98-62.inwind.it) |
| 18:17.42 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (~quassel@p5DCA668C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:17.54 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: probably list of all changed files: http://paste.debian.net/6528/ |
| 18:18.10 | divVerent | I don't see anything autodisconnect related here yet |
| 18:18.31 | divVerent | but some things are weird |
| 18:18.34 | Sc0rpius | I would really see promoting to extras-testing work :( |
| 18:18.59 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 18:23.01 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:26.36 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:31.17 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:32.04 | *** join/#maemo arcean_ (~arcean@aacr58.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 18:36.11 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:36.12 | *** join/#maemo xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 18:37.25 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar_ (~quassel@p5DCA668C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:39.41 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 19:12.38 | *** join/#maemo brolin_empey (~brolin@brolin.be) |
| 19:15.31 | *** join/#maemo _rd (~rd@p57B49F99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:16.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | [techstaff notice] we're cleaning up a huuuuge db table, and that blocks www.m.o and possibly other services too. Sorry for the inconventience |
| 19:17.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | (if you're interested: purging 25mio records from repligard table, keeping 9mio) |
| 19:29.08 | *** part/#maemo valeriusN (root@jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 19:37.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | [techstaff notice] the sql commands been too mighty, blocking our db for undefined extended periods of time. So we aborted the job and will restart it later when we found a way to "renice" it |
| 19:53.02 | *** join/#maemo kolp (~quassel@85.60.47.33) |
| 19:56.19 | *** join/#maemo chadi (chadi@unaffiliated/chadi) |
| 19:57.00 | *** join/#maemo q_plaz (~q_plaz@198.61.226.208) |
| 19:58.18 | *** join/#maemo ashley (~ashley@MediaWiki/Jack-Phoenix) |
| 20:05.08 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@yahoo.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 20:05.15 | *** part/#maemo valerius2k (root@yahoo.jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 20:06.14 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@80.250.181.195) |
| 20:07.26 | *** join/#maemo kolp (~quassel@85.60.47.33) |
| 20:12.46 | *** join/#maemo qwazix (~qwazix@Maemo/community/council/qwazix) |
| 20:21.20 | *** join/#maemo luke-jr_ (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr) |
| 20:28.21 | *** join/#maemo kerio (~kerio@Maemo/community/contributor/kerio) |
| 20:28.46 | *** join/#maemo LauRoman (~LauRoman@5-14-93-43.residential.rdsnet.ro) |
| 20:35.04 | *** join/#maemo ccxCZ (~ccxCZ@156.200.broadband11.iol.cz) |
| 20:42.42 | *** join/#maemo sLumPia (~sLumPia@182.1.226.158) |
| 21:08.29 | *** join/#maemo Vanadis_ (~Vanadis@84-73-15-21.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 21:30.24 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 21:36.12 | *** join/#maemo eijk (~eijk@e178205246.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:37.11 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 21:46.56 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 22:05.30 | *** join/#maemo GogoPogo (~chatzilla@host147-51-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 22:05.50 | GogoPogo | hello everyone |
| 22:06.14 | GogoPogo | anyone there? |
| 22:08.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 22:08.43 | GogoPogo | :D |
| 22:08.51 | GogoPogo | hi |
| 22:09.21 | GogoPogo | what's this chat for? Maemo suggestions or just talking? |
| 22:09.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | good morning (UGT) |
| 22:09.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is the general maemo chat here |
| 22:10.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | axcept maemo6 aka meego-harmattan which is a tiny bit OT here |
| 22:10.45 | GogoPogo | I'm a new Maemo user and I have to meet its community |
| 22:10.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | you alread met it ;-) |
| 22:11.07 | GogoPogo | just to see how alive it still is you know |
| 22:11.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, we still no zombies |
| 22:11.51 | GogoPogo | as a N900 owner may I be interested in harmattan too? Is it going to work on older devices as well? |
| 22:11.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I heard over at tmo there are still a few 1000 posts per day |
| 22:12.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, harmattan only works on N9 |
| 22:12.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | (and N950) |
| 22:12.30 | GogoPogo | mmm... a pity |
| 22:13.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you hardly find many users here that would swap fremantle for harmattan on their N900 |
| 22:13.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | those who love harmattan got a N9 to use it |
| 22:14.08 | GogoPogo | I guess that even though maemo5 may become a little outdated my N900 is still a great device and I'd endorse it with another OS rather than switching to N9 |
| 22:14.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it's useless anyway on a device that can't do swipe properly |
| 22:14.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ever heard of cssu? |
| 22:14.58 | GogoPogo | heard of yeah, haven't looked into it yet |
| 22:15.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 22:15.04 | infobot | [cssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 22:15.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | you maybe should do that |
| 22:15.15 | GogoPogo | I've had my phone for like.. three days :) |
| 22:15.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, then just enjoy it for now, and stay away from any weird stuff that promises to optimize anything in maemo for you |
| 22:16.06 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@bzq-79-179-183-133.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 22:16.07 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_laptop (~ZogG_lapt@funtoo/user/ZogG) |
| 22:16.21 | GogoPogo | I bought a used phone just to feel comfortable tampering with it :D |
| 22:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | fremantle is absolutely optimal as is. Not much you'd want to boost or fix in it |
| 22:17.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | you however should flash it to a factory state |
| 22:17.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~flash |
| 22:17.03 | infobot | i guess maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware |
| 22:17.12 | GogoPogo | I actually find it very hard that Onion button has been developed but no way to encrypt pidgin has instead.. |
| 22:17.29 | GogoPogo | oh thanks, that would be great.. |
| 22:17.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | since... you never know what last owner did to the device and particularly to the software/system on it |
| 22:18.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr131 |
| 22:18.17 | infobot | i heard combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 22:19.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | and |
| 22:19.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tabletsdev |
| 22:19.06 | infobot | rumour has it, tabletsdev is http://repository.maemo.org/tabletsdev/ |
| 22:19.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tabletsdev is also http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev |
| 22:19.59 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 22:20.22 | GogoPogo | mmmm... a lot to know |
| 22:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tablets-dev is <reply>see tabletsdev |
| 22:20.31 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 22:20.39 | GogoPogo | I'm going to flash it I guess |
| 22:20.53 | GogoPogo | I actually would like to get to know it and its terminal first |
| 22:21.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 22:21.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | start with getting http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin and flasher-3.5 from tabletsdev |
| 22:21.38 | GogoPogo | I'm trying all the linux commands I know and they don't work.. I guess I need some documentation over it |
| 22:22.03 | GogoPogo | ok, I'll download it now and store till I make up my mind |
| 22:22.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | then follow instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, which you should read completely twice, before starting |
| 22:22.27 | GogoPogo | mmm.. risky? |
| 22:22.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end usually flashing is mere fun |
| 22:22.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | no risk at all |
| 22:22.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | you always can recover |
| 22:22.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | N900 is basically unbrickable |
| 22:22.58 | GogoPogo | which is awesome |
| 22:23.25 | GogoPogo | I have to dig into encryption tools developed for Maemo5, any heads-up? |
| 22:23.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | just make sure you never forget your towel, err to charge your battery |
| 22:24.01 | GogoPogo | full loaded battery of course |
| 22:24.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, double check that |
| 22:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | since sometimes N900 doesn't charge when you messed up something in software |
| 22:25.12 | GogoPogo | I noticed! That's so damn strange of a phone.. |
| 22:25.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is quite unfortunate since with depleted battery you can't fix the software, and without proper software you can't charge the battery |
| 22:25.25 | GogoPogo | never seen anything like that before |
| 22:26.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, probably almost all phones work in a similar way. Just on other phones you hardly can mess up the software ;-) |
| 22:26.40 | GogoPogo | I really believed the battery was there waiting to get filled by electric power as a mere energy container... |
| 22:26.48 | GogoPogo | indeed :D |
| 22:27.37 | GogoPogo | what are your favorite apps? |
| 22:27.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, welcome! |
| 22:27.49 | GogoPogo | thanks a lot |
| 22:27.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afk for some TV now# |
| 22:28.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | but this channel is worth staying |
| 22:28.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | for you ;-) |
| 22:28.28 | *** join/#maemo CaCO3 (~gruinelli@172-45.194-178.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 22:28.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | lots of nice helpful people here |
| 22:28.34 | GogoPogo | ok! bye |
| 22:28.38 | GogoPogo | thanks for your help |
| 22:33.02 | *** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 22:40.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and take care about your USB, it's flimsy |
| 22:41.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should tread it like it was made of thin glass |
| 22:41.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | treat* |
| 22:50.53 | *** join/#maemo FIQ (~FIQ@unaffiliated/fiq) |
| 22:51.47 | GogoPogo | yeah, I read so... I'm trying to be as careful as possible |
| 23:07.11 | GogoPogo | anyone there? |
| 23:15.24 | *** join/#maemo discopig (~discopig@2001:5c0:1400:a::115) |
| 23:15.24 | *** join/#maemo discopig (~discopig@unaffiliated/discopig) |
| 23:25.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | still 224, incl you |
| 23:27.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey, do I know you from some other chan or other nick, or do you use a client that has user name "New Now Know How" per default? |
| 23:27.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, chatzilla |
| 23:28.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever that is |
| 23:32.39 | GogoPogo | yes |
| 23:33.12 | GogoPogo | maybe you're into drupal? |
| 23:33.14 | *** join/#maemo futpib (~futpib@89.106.197.23) |
| 23:33.59 | *** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@78.134.48.65) |
| 23:36.09 | *** join/#maemo hurbu__ (~hurbanza@78-134-98-134.v4.ngi.it) |
| 23:39.25 | GogoPogo | is it possible to have a program developed for linux run on your maemo5? |
| 23:40.16 | rikanee | GogoPogo: as long as it's linked to glibc, and built for ARM, why not |
| 23:41.26 | GogoPogo | well.. that would require much better skills than I currently do anyway |
| 23:41.42 | rikanee | GogoPogo: search for Easy Debian |
| 23:41.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually commandline programs usually compile right away in scratchbox |
| 23:42.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | most of them |
| 23:42.33 | GogoPogo | I'm looking up Easy Debian |
| 23:42.52 | GogoPogo | Doc, source code would be enough ? |
| 23:43.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | except such special stuff like.... cron, xev maybe, rtcwake for sure |
| 23:43.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | GogoPogo: yes |
| 23:43.31 | rikanee | don't forget dependencies ;) |
| 23:43.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a whole lot of nice stuff in tools repo |
| 23:44.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | like strace |
| 23:44.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and whatnot else |
| 23:45.05 | GogoPogo | I'm better off showing you what I'd like to run maybe |
| 23:45.24 | GogoPogo | http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/ as a Pidgin plugin |
| 23:45.43 | GogoPogo | I can't understand if it is feasible |
| 23:46.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 |
| 23:47.09 | GogoPogo | you can download source code and library.... |
| 23:47.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think somebody asked about otr some months ago in here |
| 23:49.09 | GogoPogo | it would be so cool.. I use it with my contacts, among PCs and portable devices as well |
| 23:50.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I faintly seem to recall sth about onion and tor |
| 23:50.13 | GogoPogo | yeah! |
| 23:50.19 | GogoPogo | I already used it, it's great |
| 23:50.24 | GogoPogo | just a little outdated |
| 23:50.26 | rikanee | GogoPogo: your friends use OTR? |
| 23:50.31 | GogoPogo | yes |
| 23:50.47 | *** join/#maemo futpib_ (~futpib@89.106.197.60) |
| 23:50.48 | rikanee | man, sigh, people at uni are switching to the new hotness, WeChat |
| 23:51.11 | GogoPogo | WeChat, never heard of it :\ |
| 23:51.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-04-01.log.html#t2013-04-01T18:16:33 |
| 23:51.37 | rikanee | GogoPogo: IM client owned by Tencent, which I'm 99.9999% sure is a Chinese backdoor |
| 23:53.12 | GogoPogo | oh... that's disgusting |
| 23:53.37 | GogoPogo | http://maemo.org/packages/view/pidgin-otr/ |
| 23:53.45 | Sc0rpius | WeChat is a chinese thing |
| 23:53.59 | GogoPogo | I really need to learn my way to this community and its resources |
| 23:54.03 | Sc0rpius | isn't WeChat extremely popular in China? |
| 23:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=otr&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same sorry no shorter URL |
| 23:54.36 | GogoPogo | I swear I had searched the website for it |
| 23:54.39 | rikanee | Sc0rpius: Tencent owns QQ, which is /the/ IM client in China |
| 23:54.49 | Sc0rpius | I see |
| 23:55.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | this however is shorter http://maemo.org/packages/view/pidgin-otr/ |
| 23:55.07 | rikanee | not quite sure about WeChat, but it looks like it's targeted at more international users |
| 23:55.26 | GogoPogo | russian people us jabber a lot |
| 23:55.50 | GogoPogo | but few encrypt their convos |
| 23:55.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | GogoPogo: you still want to compile it from scratch? |
| 23:56.27 | GogoPogo | Doc, even if I was able to do such a thing I wouldn't be so silly :D |
| 23:57.15 | GogoPogo | I'm trying to understand how to get it |
| 23:57.29 | GogoPogo | i'll try through terminal |
| 23:57.48 | rikanee | GogoPogo: have you installed rootsh? |
| 23:58.06 | GogoPogo | not yet .. do I need it ? |
| 23:58.35 | GogoPogo | I usually use "sudo gainroot" |
| 23:58.44 | rikanee | oh, that works well enough, then |
| 23:59.00 | rikanee | next, have you activated extras-revel? |
| 23:59.06 | rikanee | *devel |
| 23:59.06 | GogoPogo | I still fear it doesn't gain root though... |
| 23:59.26 | GogoPogo | are they the maemo.org app repositories? |