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| 05:44.06 | Addison_ | Can someone help me just a little with trying to boot from an SD Card? |
| 05:44.22 | Addison_ | I'm following the directions on this page. |
| 05:44.23 | Addison_ | http://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card |
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| 06:03.13 | kerio | Addison_: boot what from an sd card? |
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| 06:10.55 | Gear_ | hey |
| 06:11.09 | Gear_ | somehow the IR sensor? burned a hole in the screen |
| 06:11.37 | Gear_ | it melted a sort of little bump, how the hell did this happen? has anyone heard of this before? |
| 06:12.20 | Gear_ | it's not a hole, more like a tiny barely raised blister, but I'm not sure the sensor works anymore and I have NO idea how this happened overnight |
| 06:12.27 | freemangordon_ | Gear_: IR LED is next to camera buttton, I can't see a wa it to "burn" the screen ;) |
| 06:12.35 | freemangordon_ | *way |
| 06:12.46 | Gear_ | the one on the front of the screen |
| 06:13.15 | Gear_ | IR sensor, for the phone to be next to your face, whatever it is |
| 06:13.17 | freemangordon_ | it is either fron camera, ambient light sensor or proximity detector |
| 06:13.21 | freemangordon_ | *front |
| 06:13.31 | Gear_ | yeah one of those things |
| 06:13.37 | Gear_ | it melted a little blister |
| 06:15.03 | Addison_ | Never mind kerio. I just decided to start all over again. |
| 06:18.04 | Gear_ | has anyone ever heard of this happening? |
| 06:19.17 | Gear_ | I'm nearly going to retire this n900 and use the new one, but I'd like another 6 months at least before doing that |
| 06:19.54 | Gear_ | I don't know how to test what happened. the ambient light sensor works |
| 06:20.24 | freemangordon | what about proximity? |
| 06:20.50 | freemangordon | Gear_: ooh, there is another LED, the RGB one :) |
| 06:21.22 | Gear_ | no it's right by teh speaker hole |
| 06:21.57 | Gear_ | proximity sensor works |
| 06:22.20 | freemangordon | proximity sensor is right to the speaker hole |
| 06:23.34 | Gear_ | shit, actually it's that |
| 06:23.40 | Gear_ | how the hell does that burn out. |
| 06:24.32 | Gear_ | now I'll be pushing buttons with my face |
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| 06:45.50 | Apic | A wonderful splendid Sweetmorn to You all. |
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| 08:15.46 | Gear_ | the contacts in my phone are dialling wrong |
| 08:16.05 | Gear_ | the proximity sensor somehow burned a hole in the screen now the contacts are wrong? |
| 08:16.17 | Gear_ | seems like this phone is dead :( |
| 08:21.32 | rikanee | Gear_: burned a /hole/ in the screen? |
| 08:21.43 | rikanee | it's adjacent to the screen and relatively low power though |
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| 08:27.50 | Gear_ | yes |
| 08:28.01 | cehteh | show pic |
| 08:28.10 | Gear_ | it' smore like a blister than a hole |
| 08:28.15 | Gear_ | but it's definitely burnt |
| 08:28.18 | Gear_ | from the inside |
| 08:28.24 | cehteh | you are smoker? |
| 08:28.28 | Gear_ | I don' thave any picture hosting crap |
| 08:28.35 | Gear_ | the prox sensor is broken too |
| 08:28.36 | cehteh | imgur.com |
| 08:28.43 | Gear_ | I'm telling you it's burned from the inside |
| 08:28.55 | Gear_ | the proximity sensor somehow burned a blister into the plastic above it |
| 08:29.07 | cehteh | would be odd |
| 08:29.10 | Gear_ | and some of my contacts are dialling the wrong ones |
| 08:29.17 | Gear_ | something is really screwed up |
| 08:29.27 | cehteh | looks like that |
| 08:29.30 | Gear_ | it's not like I've dropped this or anything recently |
| 08:29.57 | rikanee | time to add this to "N900 Hardware Defects". |
| 08:30.25 | rikanee | cooking itself is pretty odd, though. |
| 08:30.27 | Gear_ | any scan I should run? |
| 08:30.38 | Gear_ | I wouldn't have thought it was possible for the prox sensor to do that |
| 08:30.47 | Gear_ | but it is a small IR emitter with an ir reciever |
| 08:30.50 | rikanee | Gear_, back it up, export contacts to VCF, etc, then reflash it |
| 08:31.04 | Gear_ | I mean for the hardware defect report |
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| 08:31.28 | Gear_ | is there anything I can scan the hardware with? |
| 08:31.31 | rikanee | I don't think it's the IR sensor doing it, it would probably be hot air and a digitizer that had material defects |
| 08:31.53 | Gear_ | no this phone has performed flawlessly for a long time |
| 08:31.56 | Gear_ | since new. |
| 08:32.02 | Gear_ | I've kept it in really good condition |
| 08:32.08 | rikanee | Gear_: what's the ambient temp in your part of the world? |
| 08:32.30 | Gear_ | about 10 degrees celcius |
| 08:32.50 | Gear_ | probably 6 at night. |
| 08:33.00 | Gear_ | up to 18 in the day at the moment |
| 08:33.24 | Gear_ | its' possible angry birds was on standby for like 10 hours |
| 08:33.47 | rikanee | yeah, but the N900 gets warm at the back, not towards the screen |
| 08:34.07 | Gear_ | its' definitely the ir emitter for the proximity sensor that has burned the screen from the inside out |
| 08:34.25 | jaska | some sort of short-circuit? |
| 08:35.01 | Gear_ | how |
| 08:35.10 | Gear_ | it hasn't been wet or dropped or anything |
| 08:35.21 | Gear_ | it's a weird short circuit. |
| 08:35.32 | Gear_ | I have a new one on standby |
| 08:35.41 | Gear_ | I'll export this stuff to that one |
| 08:35.48 | Gear_ | but also I only recently changed to CSSU |
| 08:35.58 | Gear_ | is it possible this could be a bug |
| 08:36.18 | Gear_ | because realistically this is the end of the phone |
| 08:36.39 | Gear_ | wouldn't want other poeple to have theirs spontaneously combust or whatever |
| 08:36.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed a funny idea that proxy sensor IR LED gone apeshit and lazored a blister/bubble into digitizer plastic |
| 08:37.40 | Gear_ | yeah I didn' tknow it could output that much |
| 08:37.44 | Gear_ | but it happened |
| 08:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno if the component *could* (physically) do such thing, at least once |
| 08:38.27 | Gear_ | trust me, it did. |
| 08:38.45 | Gear_ | I know it's that component only from video of the unit |
| 08:38.52 | Gear_ | the tiny flashes it pulsed |
| 08:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly, the IR light it emits is supposed to go _thru_ the digitizer plastic, not warm it up |
| 08:39.24 | Gear_ | what if it was upside down |
| 08:39.38 | Gear_ | though I don't think it was |
| 08:39.40 | Gear_ | anyway it happened |
| 08:39.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | if however the component emitted blue magic smoke and became a heating during the process, _that_ could cause such effect |
| 08:40.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | not LED IR but component surface IR radiation, and hot air |
| 08:40.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | in *theory* that could happen |
| 08:40.58 | Gear_ | no PROBABLY not IR so intense that it burns a hole |
| 08:41.23 | Gear_ | but if something malfunctioned, the emitter goes apeshit and burns itself out |
| 08:41.27 | Gear_ | it took the plastic with it |
| 08:41.34 | Gear_ | that's how hot it got |
| 08:41.39 | Gear_ | and this stuff is what |
| 08:41.41 | Gear_ | 2mm thick? |
| 08:41.44 | ShadowJK | It can't.. also, it goes right through the plastics, because otherwise if the plastic absorbed the IR, the sensor would be useless |
| 08:41.47 | ShadowJK | so it'd burn hole in your head insgtead |
| 08:41.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah |
| 08:41.50 | ShadowJK | Considering the crazy stuff you're saying, this holr im head theory sounds more plausible to me :D |
| 08:42.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | not 2mm |
| 08:42.19 | Gear_ | 1.5mm |
| 08:42.22 | Gear_ | it's more than 1mm |
| 08:42.34 | Gear_ | anyway, whatever. I don't care about your speculation |
| 08:42.55 | Gear_ | if there is any hardware scan I can run I'll give you the results |
| 08:43.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and when the component got internal short, it will draw arbitrary power directly from Vcc and component will heat up to several 100°C |
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| 08:43.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's <<1mm, see earpiece apperture |
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| 08:44.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that apperture adds the black stuff which is aperture on proximity detector too |
| 08:45.23 | ShadowJK | pics anyway |
| 08:45.23 | ShadowJK | Gear_; do you smoke? |
| 08:45.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you don't care about my speculation, then please don't spam the channel with yours |
| 08:45.45 | Gear_ | I was talking to shadow |
| 08:45.47 | Gear_ | not you |
| 08:45.49 | Gear_ | you're talking sense |
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| 08:46.50 | cehteh | the truth is prolly that elop equipped the n900's with brain zapping lasers which can be remote controlled :) |
| 08:46.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gear_: could you take a mocro snapshot? and publish? I'd be eager to _see_ how it looks |
| 08:47.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | cehteh: LOL |
| 08:47.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-P |
| 08:47.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | macro even |
| 08:47.28 | Gear_ | I could |
| 08:47.35 | Gear_ | but I'm not goign to anymore. |
| 08:47.35 | rikanee | cehteh: "BUY LUMIAS" |
| 08:48.00 | Gear_ | I'm over this shit, later |
| 08:48.18 | dhbiker | rage quit ? |
| 08:48.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gear_: anyway, testing proximity sensor is easy |
| 08:48.50 | Gear_ | "make a call" |
| 08:49.08 | Gear_ | did that, also installed and ran "healthcheck" but that just said the prox sensor was open |
| 08:50.14 | Gear_ | some kind of short, pullup state, and the component burning out with an unknown amount of current is what happened, I'd like to know why |
| 08:50.33 | cehteh | btw you seen the first google-glass impressions: https://twitter.com/jzellis/status/335460563469627392/photo/1/large |
| 08:50.53 | dhbiker | lol cehteh |
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| 08:52.14 | rikanee | cehteh: 10/10 would buy, if it meant all the ads I'd see on the streets would be replaced by ones styled by Google |
| 08:53.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gear_: watch cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state |
| 08:53.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | as root |
| 08:54.19 | cehteh | btw http://i.imgur.com/DzUn2YI.jpg |
| 08:54.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | rikanee: luckily it's not yet a replacing AR-goggles |
| 08:55.38 | Gear_ | some obese dude with a fat chick? |
| 08:56.39 | cehteh | you dont know that dude? |
| 08:57.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I haven't seen such awesome goggles yet, not even as prototype. I probably should file a patent for my design of combined selectively dim'able sunglasses plus full view-angle projector. So you could a) dim selectively the spot in your view that the sun comes in and blinds you, and b) even superimpose a warning "sun here, don't look into that direction!" |
| 08:58.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-D |
| 08:58.32 | rikanee | cehteh: better version: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9arnte287q7ghw/1363459074016.jpg?v=1mcis |
| 08:59.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | wtf got gnu to do with that now? |
| 09:01.24 | rikanee | ah whoops, forgot this wasn't an imageboard. |
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| 11:02.40 | vi__ | super capacitor to replace mobile phone batteries? PUH-LEASE. |
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| 11:08.05 | LinuxCode | you are missing the really exciting bit |
| 11:08.12 | vi__ | which is? |
| 11:08.14 | LinuxCode | a girl made it |
| 11:08.30 | vi__ | From what I can see she hooked a cap upto an LED. |
| 11:08.31 | LinuxCode | and, she has an interest in nano-tech |
| 11:08.51 | LinuxCode | http://www.itechpost.com/articles/9488/20130520/new-supercapacitor-developed-18-year-old-charge-cell-phones-20.htm |
| 11:08.57 | LinuxCode | sounds a bit more involved than that |
| 11:09.35 | vi__ | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:09.40 | vi__ | ^ not really. |
| 11:09.58 | trx | seems to me like a marketing scheme |
| 11:10.13 | trx | no way in hell she did anything except take a picture :) |
| 11:10.33 | LinuxCode | Intel seems to think it is worth something |
| 11:10.47 | vi__ | They thought will.i.am is worth something. |
| 11:10.48 | trx | i am not questioning the technology |
| 11:10.56 | LinuxCode | I hope she got patents on it |
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| 11:11.07 | vi__ | You cant patent a capacitor! |
| 11:11.09 | LinuxCode | I know there is loads of r&d going on in the battery sector |
| 11:11.28 | LinuxCode | vi__, you have a very simplistic view |
| 11:12.06 | vi__ | cap+resistor+led==NEW KIND OF MEGA FONE BATTERY THAT WILL LAST FOREVER. |
| 11:12.15 | trx | :)) |
| 11:12.20 | Gear_ | reeks of bullshit |
| 11:12.57 | Gear_ | india pumps out kids with PhD's at 20 years old |
| 11:13.25 | joga | yeah, surely as qualified as any other PhDs |
| 11:13.28 | Gear_ | US kids are borderline retarded compared to virtually every other developed country |
| 11:13.31 | LinuxCode | joga, lol |
| 11:13.35 | vi__ | haha |
| 11:14.19 | Gear_ | and some 18 year old girl develops nanotech capacitors in her spare time that holds a charge for 18 years |
| 11:14.29 | Gear_ | "oh US is doing amazingly well too, look at this" |
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| 11:15.01 | Gear_ | the whole of the united states scores LOWER in english tests than dutch teenagers in teh equivalent of SATs |
| 11:15.08 | LinuxCode | Gear_, I don't particularly think our education system is much better either |
| 11:15.11 | Gear_ | and dutch is their second language |
| 11:15.15 | LinuxCode | meaning UK/OZ/NZ |
| 11:15.19 | Gear_ | much beter than what |
| 11:15.40 | Gear_ | NZ is a dump and anyone educated leaves |
| 11:15.41 | LinuxCode | compared to many continental European countries |
| 11:15.57 | Gear_ | compared to continental european countries no, they're still pathetic |
| 11:16.03 | LinuxCode | but then again, I have been through the German education system |
| 11:16.08 | LinuxCode | I think that is overrated |
| 11:16.11 | Gear_ | nowhere NEAR as bad as the US |
| 11:16.16 | LinuxCode | hehe |
| 11:16.43 | Gear_ | the dutch education system is good, but highly class based |
| 11:17.00 | Gear_ | they stream you according to aptitude/intelligence |
| 11:17.08 | LinuxCode | they do that in Germany too |
| 11:17.14 | Gear_ | but still, if you end up a bricklayer, you are BRILLIANT at laying bricks |
| 11:17.24 | Gear_ | but you're never going to rise any higher than that your entire life |
| 11:17.29 | LinuxCode | 3 tears of school, although now with the new comprehensives, you dont get that as much |
| 11:17.33 | Gear_ | that is your life, FOREVER |
| 11:17.43 | joga | until they just 3d print our houses heh |
| 11:17.48 | Gear_ | holland had 4 tiers |
| 11:17.50 | vi__ | Yeah, but we will ALWAYS need skilled bricklayers. |
| 11:18.00 | LinuxCode | but even there they still have a lower aptitude group system |
| 11:18.05 | Gear_ | everywhere will need skilled labourours |
| 11:18.06 | LinuxCode | vi__, and lawyers |
| 11:18.11 | LinuxCode | lol |
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| 11:18.44 | vi__ | art critics and journalists? Not so much. |
| 11:18.47 | Gear_ | when I was in the netherlands it was 4 tiers |
| 11:18.58 | Gear_ | 3 of technical school and then university |
| 11:19.01 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar_ (~quassel@wlan-53-129.wlan.uni-wuppertal.de) |
| 11:19.22 | LinuxCode | Gear_, ohh I meant |
| 11:19.27 | Gear_ | but that whole place is held together at the seams by engineering |
| 11:19.28 | LinuxCode | as in Secondary schooling level |
| 11:19.35 | LinuxCode | they have 3 aptitude levels |
| 11:19.47 | Gear_ | in holland you'll end up in one of 4 tiers |
| 11:19.49 | LinuxCode | Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium |
| 11:20.02 | LinuxCode | and now new, comprehensives, which are a mash up |
| 11:20.11 | LinuxCode | secondary+tertiary levels combined |
| 11:20.14 | fizzie | http://bestmag.co.uk/news/052013-492/ is the first article I've seen that actually mentions any details ("Her design incorporated a novel core-shell nanorod electrode with a hydrogemated TiO2 (H-TiO2) core and polyaniline shell. -- Good conductivity of H-TiO2 combined with the high pseudo-capacitance of polyaniline results in significantly higher overall capacitance and energy density --") ... |
| 11:20.18 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (~quassel@wlan-53-129.wlan.uni-wuppertal.de) |
| 11:20.20 | fizzie | ... though even that doesn't bother with actual numbers. |
| 11:20.35 | Gear_ | fizzie |
| 11:20.50 | vi__ | No indication of the actual capacitance? |
| 11:21.01 | Gear_ | there are all sorts of pathetic "ted" speeches showing "amazing US teens" doing all sorts of bullshit |
| 11:21.02 | dhbiker | why is HAM so sloow :< |
| 11:21.12 | vi__ | ted can go eat a bag of dicks. |
| 11:21.16 | Gear_ | 15 year old builds electric car that's more efficient than cycling!!! |
| 11:21.31 | vi__ | 3 YEAR OLD SHITS THE CURE TO CANCER! |
| 11:21.41 | LinuxCode | lol |
| 11:21.41 | vi__ | HER DOCTORS HATE HER. |
| 11:21.44 | Gear_ | 16 year old makes a 100 dollar replacement to border security scanning systems! |
| 11:21.49 | LinuxCode | you are such a bunch of haters |
| 11:21.51 | LinuxCode | lol |
| 11:21.51 | Gear_ | all these prodigys |
| 11:22.03 | jaska | hate keeps a man alive. |
| 11:22.04 | Gear_ | no, TED is mostly like watching infomercials |
| 11:22.09 | LinuxCode | ohh is there a channel for sawfish on freenode ? |
| 11:22.09 | vi__ | jaska: ! |
| 11:22.19 | Gear_ | they try to repackage some sort of grille as the new miracle cooking device |
| 11:22.40 | Gear_ | and they try to repackage some pathetic old science project as the next incredible breakthrough by an american teenager |
| 11:23.08 | vi__ | Can some one please tell what the capacity and physical dimensions of this capacitor are? At the very least give some indication of the energy density per volume? |
| 11:23.21 | Gear_ | no, because it's probably just a drawing |
| 11:23.25 | LinuxCode | sory sailfish |
| 11:23.33 | Gear_ | the potato powers the LED |
| 11:23.34 | fizzie | vi__: "203.3 mF/cm^2 (238.5 F/g) compared to the next best alternative supercapacitor in previous research of 80 F/g", says the abstract. |
| 11:23.35 | LinuxCode | I keep thinking of sawfish |
| 11:23.41 | vi__ | Gear_: Dont be such a hater, it lit an LED. |
| 11:24.05 | Gear_ | the potato was a metaphorical representative of the capacitor |
| 11:24.24 | fizzie | http://www.usc.edu/CSSF//History/2013/Projects/S0912.pdf <- said abstract. |
| 11:24.25 | Gear_ | the nanotechnology was drawn with coloured pencils |
| 11:24.33 | vi__ | fizzie: Thank you. |
| 11:24.35 | Gear_ | the abstract relies on what |
| 11:24.36 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (~quassel@wlan-53-129.wlan.uni-wuppertal.de) |
| 11:24.55 | Gear_ | in depth knowledge of the "nanotech" in question? |
| 11:25.03 | Gear_ | it just reeks of some marketing shit |
| 11:25.23 | Gear_ | the education system there is pumping out retard after retard, there is never any press about anyone excelling at anything |
| 11:25.42 | Gear_ | because they never do. |
| 11:26.07 | Gear_ | they'll be in a recession for another decade |
| 11:26.28 | fizzie | I would assume the numbers in the abstract came from a thing called "measurements", but I have no idea how much peer review the California state science fair involves, so who knows. |
| 11:26.51 | Gear_ | some mystery capacitor comes from a female highschool student made in her spare time can power iphones for 18 years? |
| 11:26.58 | Gear_ | WOW |
| 11:27.06 | Gear_ | they really are producing geniuses there |
| 11:27.12 | Gear_ | let's all believe it |
| 11:27.42 | vi__ | While the cap may have a high density, how much of that power is usable? |
| 11:27.45 | Gear_ | and change our minds |
| 11:27.54 | vi__ | After all there is spare heat energy in an ice cube. |
| 11:28.24 | Gear_ | compared to something colder than an ice cube |
| 11:28.40 | vi__ | Gear_: Yes. |
| 11:28.53 | vi__ | But it is all in how you say it :) |
| 11:29.16 | Gear_ | so an 18 year old girl (not that realistically gender has any role to play, but in the press a girl looks WAY better) |
| 11:29.25 | vi__ | There is 5000j of heat energy in this ice cube! (above absolute zero). |
| 11:29.27 | Gear_ | produces nanotechnology in her spare time |
| 11:29.40 | Gear_ | and creates a battery that will last longer than any electronic device |
| 11:29.42 | joga | if she was chinese she would be 11 years old |
| 11:29.56 | Gear_ | probably |
| 11:30.03 | fizzie | I'd assume the "18 years" figure is something derived from the (extrapolated?) cycle life number given. |
| 11:30.21 | vi__ | In the context of the report, what does the word 'synthesized' mean? |
| 11:30.31 | Gear_ | nothing |
| 11:30.35 | Gear_ | drew with crayons |
| 11:30.39 | Gear_ | printed a picture of |
| 11:30.52 | vi__ | Gear_: you hate harder than me. |
| 11:31.06 | *** join/#maemo valerius (~user@85.26.180.141) |
| 11:31.13 | Gear_ | I'm not hating |
| 11:31.17 | vi__ | Gear_: and mrs vi_ says I am a functioning Haterholic. |
| 11:31.19 | Gear_ | it' sjust marketing and lies |
| 11:31.42 | *** join/#maemo valerius2k (root@jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 11:31.42 | Gear_ | they're constantly lowering passing grades so they can say more kids pass |
| 11:31.43 | vi__ | There is clearly a lot of spin here but there must be some merit to it. |
| 11:31.52 | joga | if someone already paid $50000 or so for it they probably checked if it had any merit |
| 11:32.03 | Gear_ | MARKETING |
| 11:32.05 | joga | maybe even asked a physicist or something |
| 11:32.20 | Gear_ | this is hte lady gaga of science |
| 11:32.23 | fizzie | "The new electrode was fabricated into a flexible solid-state device -- Used lab equipment at [UCSC] under the supervision of Dr. Yat Li"; I suppose you could ask Dr. Li about what it meant. |
| 11:32.57 | vi__ | HERE I HAVE SYTHESIZED A SUPER CAPACITOR WITH A POTATOE AND SYTHESIZED A MOBILE PHONE WITH A LCD CLOCK. |
| 11:33.15 | *** join/#maemo muelli (~muelli@port-8471.pppoe.wtnet.de) |
| 11:33.16 | Gear_ | they need a positive spin on the education system because of how incredibly badly it is failing compared to even the least developed countries |
| 11:33.22 | vi__ | That means the led was connected to the cap. |
| 11:33.29 | *** join/#maemo thp (~thp@Maemo/community/contributor/thp) |
| 11:33.51 | Gear_ | why not create the boyband equivalent of a "scientist" |
| 11:33.54 | Gear_ | full scholarship etc |
| 11:34.04 | Gear_ | "under the supervision of dr whoever" |
| 11:34.28 | *** join/#maemo at1as (~at1as@kurios.r4780y.com) |
| 11:34.33 | Gear_ | "um, put this there adn that there, OH LOOK YOU'VE CREATED SOMETHING" |
| 11:34.34 | jaska | dr kuma |
| 11:34.50 | Gear_ | "WE'RE PRODUCING GENIUSES!" |
| 11:34.56 | *** join/#maemo jeverling (~quassel@jeverling.de) |
| 11:34.57 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (~quassel@wlan-53-129.wlan.uni-wuppertal.de) |
| 11:35.23 | Gear_ | why not market the education system as working with some "autotuning" except just in the science field? |
| 11:35.50 | Gear_ | they've been doing it to sell records forever |
| 11:36.07 | Gear_ | sell the idea that child prodigys are coming out of the ghetto in new york |
| 11:36.13 | joga | I don't mind even if it was just some marketing on top of the supposed achievement |
| 11:36.23 | Gear_ | how can it POSSIBLY not be |
| 11:36.52 | fizzie | Given that Dr. Li's latest "selected publication" is "Hydrogen-treated TiO2 nanowire arrays for photoelectrochemical water splitting" (esp. compared with the title of this supercap project) and his research interests involve "-- development of novel functional nanomaterials -- rational design and synthesis of functional nanomaterials, especially one-dimensional nanostructures --", you could ... |
| 11:36.58 | fizzie | ... sort of guesstimate there's been some amount of guidance involved. |
| 11:37.13 | Gear_ | I already guesstimated that |
| 11:37.23 | vi__ | fizzie and there is the punchline. |
| 11:38.02 | vi__ | Perhaps this is a clever plan to get some much needed cash for science research. |
| 11:38.12 | Gear_ | or for the school |
| 11:38.17 | fizzie | Gear_: I thought your guesstimation was "it's just a drawing". |
| 11:38.33 | Gear_ | read up |
| 11:38.38 | vi__ | Hey kid, pretend you invented my thing and get a bunch of money and shit so we can research it more. |
| 11:39.14 | joga | I don't really see the problem, so this person may be a normal person after all. does having a proper lab and supervisor turn the to-be-supercap into a disappointment? |
| 11:40.08 | Gear_ | the instant we get phones that last for 18 years I will be proven wrong |
| 11:40.23 | Gear_ | no single person "invents" anything anymore |
| 11:40.41 | Gear_ | especially not a kid out of some ghetto |
| 11:40.46 | joga | why not? |
| 11:40.49 | Gear_ | it's the boyband of science |
| 11:41.01 | Gear_ | let's use occam's razor on this one |
| 11:41.30 | Gear_ | A: she synthesised nanotechnology in her spare time and it works exactly as marketed |
| 11:41.42 | *** join/#maemo MikaT (~mtapoja@projects.sse.fi) |
| 11:41.44 | joga | does it bother you that it's a she? |
| 11:41.59 | Gear_ | no, in reality it's probably more likely to be a she |
| 11:42.10 | Gear_ | but for the public |
| 11:42.13 | Gear_ | that's HUGE |
| 11:42.42 | *** join/#maemo `0660 (olli@oosny.net) |
| 11:42.59 | Gear_ | look at forensics classes or biology or vetinary sciences or anything else |
| 11:43.12 | Gear_ | the bulk are chicks |
| 11:43.51 | Gear_ | mech engineering or electronics engineering you get far less |
| 11:43.54 | *** join/#maemo jeverling (~quassel@jeverling.de) |
| 11:44.35 | vi__ | On the positive side, this is a motivated young student who has been given a scholarship who will probably make the most of it. |
| 11:44.44 | Gear_ | or else |
| 11:44.58 | vi__ | At 19 I was hitchhiking and getting high. |
| 11:45.23 | Gear_ | she has to make the most of it |
| 11:45.32 | vi__ | No she does not. |
| 11:45.38 | Gear_ | it's in the spotlight now |
| 11:45.39 | vi__ | But she probably will. |
| 11:45.41 | vi__ | So. |
| 11:45.43 | Gear_ | she has corporate backing |
| 11:45.48 | Gear_ | it's probably in her contract |
| 11:45.50 | joga | there have been many spotlights, never heard of again |
| 11:45.55 | vi__ | You think they will shoot her if she does not? |
| 11:46.11 | Gear_ | I bet she'll be penalised |
| 11:46.17 | joga | eh :) |
| 11:46.51 | joga | there's a bit of a pessimistic tone here heh |
| 11:47.24 | Gear_ | they're not gonna black bag her, but if she's signed a contract with someone, there'll be repercussions, the aptitude test for this one was probably drug use and all kinds of other psychological profiling |
| 11:48.07 | *** join/#maemo robink (~quassel@unaffilated/robink) |
| 11:48.19 | Gear_ | the cia select people straight out of highschool, why not start marketing nanotech and other bullshit with a similar selection process? |
| 11:48.31 | vi__ | Gear_: are you USA? |
| 11:48.55 | Gear_ | if I wasn't? |
| 11:49.31 | vi__ | was 9/11 a hologram? |
| 11:49.53 | Gear_ | no, elvis flew the plane |
| 11:49.57 | LinuxCode | lol |
| 11:50.02 | LinuxCode | shakes head |
| 11:50.32 | Gear_ | it's right there in the bible |
| 11:50.37 | vi__ | You are aware Vietnam was a false flag operation orchestrated to implicate the French as partially responsible for faking the moon landings? |
| 11:50.50 | vi__ | also, lizard people. |
| 11:51.01 | Gear_ | vietnam isn't officially a "war" |
| 11:51.36 | vi__ | wait, are we talking about Vietnam 1 or 2 |
| 11:51.39 | vi__ | ? |
| 11:51.49 | Gear_ | rocky 5 |
| 11:51.59 | Gear_ | time for sleep |
| 11:52.38 | *** join/#maemo Macer (mace@scientiam.org) |
| 11:53.19 | *** join/#maemo FlameReaper (~assassin@175.144.201.76) |
| 11:54.52 | *** join/#maemo darodi (~Thunderbi@mail.flc.be) |
| 11:55.10 | Macer | wow.. i found my first original n900 bag |
| 11:55.18 | Apic | Cool. |
| 11:55.19 | Macer | the other 2 never had the bags |
| 11:55.23 | Macer | what's up with that? :) |
| 11:55.23 | Gear_ | bag? |
| 11:55.31 | Macer | yeah... early models from nokia had a bag |
| 11:55.37 | Gear_ | what's up with my proximity sensor going supernova |
| 11:55.53 | Gear_ | macer was it the one with the magnetic closing thing |
| 11:55.58 | Macer | no |
| 11:56.08 | Macer | looks like a ancient coin bag heh |
| 11:56.20 | Macer | with teh string you pull to close it... like a crown royal bag :) |
| 11:56.25 | Gear_ | I have the boxes |
| 11:56.32 | Gear_ | in mint condition |
| 11:56.42 | Gear_ | maybe I could sell them to a hong kong distributor |
| 11:56.45 | Gear_ | of the fake ones |
| 11:56.48 | Macer | i didn't care much for the boxes.. especially after n900 #2 broke heh |
| 11:56.59 | Macer | lol |
| 11:57.22 | Macer | i always wondered if my N900s were fake. no idea how to tell tho tbh. maybe hk does just that good of a job of replicating |
| 11:57.33 | Gear_ | you'd know |
| 11:57.39 | Macer | then again.. it isn't like nokia made them very sturdy anyways.. with usb ports that fall off |
| 11:57.48 | Macer | and modems that stop working randomly |
| 11:57.56 | Macer | what a shame. the os is so awesome heh |
| 11:58.20 | Gear_ | my usb port has been fine |
| 11:58.38 | Gear_ | actually my first n900 has only just started to malfunction |
| 11:58.57 | Gear_ | the reserve one is probably going to have to become active |
| 12:03.32 | Macer | heh |
| 12:03.38 | Macer | my 1st one had the usb port fall off |
| 12:03.44 | Macer | 2nd one had the modem just stop working |
| 12:03.49 | Macer | known issues for both |
| 12:04.05 | Macer | nokia literally told me to shove paper into the battery compartment |
| 12:04.12 | Macer | AWESOME QA lol |
| 12:11.30 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (M4rtinK@nat/redhat/x-sgrpfxkakuurpmei) |
| 12:16.54 | rikanee | Macer: it's rumored that N900s were wave-soldered under the sun in winter ;) |
| 12:17.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | N900 100% clones can't be done - BB5 chip not available |
| 12:19.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so anything that runs maemo5 *is* a genuine Nokia N900 |
| 12:20.11 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: albeit it may have a fake housing, B-grade screen, and shoddy assembly. |
| 12:20.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes. The so called refurbished ones |
| 12:21.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: who's "Nokia" in your "Nokia told me..." |
| 12:21.46 | rikanee | honestly, if chinese factories started actually pumping out RX-51 /board/ clones, with real OMAPs and Maemo 5 on them, I'd contact them immediately. |
| 12:22.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, sure |
| 12:23.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | but, as said above, BB5 cmt chip not available |
| 12:23.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 12:24.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | NB it also needs proper filesystem (the "mass storage" flash content inside modem, which holds data like IMEI, calibration, etc) |
| 12:24.31 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: well, unless they're also into recycling other Nokia phones, at which point they might try pulling BB5s off them (this would be co$$$tly though…) |
| 12:24.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you probably could flash that, if you have the needed software and prommer hw |
| 12:27.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | the term "filesystem" for the config storage in cmt chips is rather ridiculous, it's rather something similar to CAL, with block addr hardcoded to firmware |
| 12:27.35 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: the GSM radio calibration data is stored in BB5? |
| 12:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 12:27.49 | rikanee | hmm, the more you know, I guess. |
| 12:28.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a friggin lot of calibration to be done to GSM/UMTS radio |
| 12:29.05 | *** join/#maemo valerius (~user@95.153.173.123) |
| 12:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and none of the "I want a free and open GSM radio stack!!1!!" fools has the slightest idea of any of that calibration |
| 12:30.00 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: Nokia has a service tool that does it semi-automagically though, and it seems that it's not all that hard to acquire on the grey market. |
| 12:30.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | does what? |
| 12:30.17 | rikanee | Radio calibration. |
| 12:30.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | calibration? you'll need a R&S CMU200 for that at very least |
| 12:30.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | good luck in finding a used one that can do UMTS calib, for <100k bucks |
| 12:31.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | (SIC!) USD even |
| 12:31.47 | rikanee | wasn't there mention of a radio jig in the service manual? |
| 12:32.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | possible |
| 12:32.33 | *** join/#maemo Martix (~martix@static-84-242-103-180.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 12:33.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need a well defined and calibrated contraption to attach CMU200 to the DUT, for RF calibration |
| 12:33.36 | *** join/#maemo cityLights (~nivw@bzq-218-29-26.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 12:35.39 | *** part/#maemo valeriusN (root@jabber.tsure.ru) |
| 12:36.49 | *** join/#maemo tanty (~agomez@cs78210056.pp.htv.fi) |
| 12:42.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously quadcore |
| 12:42.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops ECHAN |
| 12:43.48 | Macer | DocScrutinizer05: nokia tech support |
| 12:44.09 | Macer | when they said they wouldn't honor my warranty in the US because the device was from GB |
| 12:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | poor fools citing a database |
| 12:44.11 | Macer | go figure |
| 12:44.25 | Macer | i couldn't even see that being in the database |
| 12:44.40 | Macer | they probably got that from a forum |
| 12:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, and added it to their db |
| 12:46.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | similarly to the "reset your router to factory settings, pull the power plug for 1 minute" advice you get from your ISP when you complain about poor datarates on DSL |
| 12:46.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't even think about arguing with them about S/N-ratio etc |
| 12:48.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | they will ask you the always same 6 initial questions and if you don't confirm you did that, you won't get any useful answer to your actual problem (not that you usually ever get such useful answer anyway, from 1st level helpdesk) |
| 12:49.29 | *** join/#maemo ShadowJK (~jk@212.7.198.194) |
| 12:51.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | once you passed this initial dummy test and the flowchart in the service drone's screen (which is same as in your user manual under "faq") shows up "call service hotline", they come up with that collected nonsense that 2nd level helpdesk or back-office digged up in foum and other google search, as well as some tips that actually originated in the R&D or tech service department. Papaer probably isn't one of the latter category |
| 12:54.50 | joga | fortunately my isp will happily adjust line levels if I ask them to and can also do it over irc |
| 12:58.14 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: hehe, DSL. A local telco here is sick of repeatedly replacing copper and fixing exposed lines, so now they're migrating users slowly to fiber. |
| 12:59.00 | rikanee | poor people love stealing phone lines - they're not HV, easy to identify, and usually bundled pretty thick. |
| 13:00.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | omg |
| 13:00.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | here those cables are dug deep in the ground, so stealing them isn't exactly simple |
| 13:01.07 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: well, city planning here isn't exactly stellar, so it's overhead spaghetti land for us. |
| 13:01.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | what they steal here are railway power cables (particularly the GND cabling from rail to power station) |
| 13:02.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's getting increasingly annoying, since these idiots stop all railway traffic on that line for several hours or longer, and only every second idiot fries himself during that action |
| 13:03.15 | rikanee | wow, that blows. |
| 13:03.47 | rikanee | the railways here are fenced off and the power line endpoints are buried, so they don't even try. |
| 13:03.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just waiting for them to steal the rails instead of the cables |
| 13:05.51 | rikanee | when phone lines are stolen (they usually beat up the DSLAM or exchange), you can expect zero service for at least 3 days while they string up the wires, again. |
| 13:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm sad I sound like a nationalist or racist when I have to state that this shit started with end of soviet union and opening of frontiers to the easern european countries |
| 13:06.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't help, it's the truth |
| 13:07.38 | *** join/#maemo maybeHere (~cl@p5B165C32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:07.40 | rikanee | as a result, their fancy new fiber backbone is completely buried, with amplifier points in electric-fenced buildings, conveniently also placed near new LTE cell towers |
| 13:09.06 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: hey, when immigration is lax and social services are plentiful, you can't really expect much. |
| 13:09.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the syria refugee camps in turkey etc the watertanks get stolen!! |
| 13:10.14 | rikanee | Wow. |
| 13:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean... what a unique class of asshole you have to be to steal the water tanks in a camp? |
| 13:10.52 | *** join/#maemo konelix (~konelix@190.143.211.83) |
| 13:13.43 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05, weren't there tales of ex-USSR immigrants cooking with firewood in a flat? |
| 13:14.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 13:14.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are also tales of vietnamese or koreans cooking with C4 |
| 13:14.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | which seems to burn quite nice |
| 13:17.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what's the idiocy you could think of, you can bet on finding it being done somewhere by some idiot |
| 13:18.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | WTF?? http://jolla.com/ |
| 13:18.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | gives me a really nonsensical rather empty page |
| 13:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly again "optimized for MSIE" |
| 13:19.38 | rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: their CDN probably doesn't like you at this time - loads fine here. |
| 13:20.03 | rikanee | the images load dynamically though, so if you have JS disabled, you may need to enable it |
| 13:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, the page has an ugly (not even9 photoshopped *side* view of a device |
| 13:20.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | idiots |
| 13:20.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | who got JS enabled? |
| 13:22.04 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, when you enable JS ist a kindof nice idea, but having no fallback is FAIL |
| 13:22.34 | jaska | yeah its pretty blank apart from a black top bar |
| 13:22.36 | *** join/#maemo eijk_ (~eijk@e178226171.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:23.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | not even enabling JS, Java, and plugins, makes that page do anything meaningful on reloading. Neither does opening it in FF |
| 13:23.23 | cehteh | with JS it works for me in ff |
| 13:23.39 | jaska | enabling js works for me, and starts the cpu fan on the laptop :) |
| 13:23.55 | cehteh | huh .. wtf cpu ... here not :) |
| 13:24.16 | cehteh | flash loaden pages do that |
| 13:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | FF _has_ JS enabled |
| 13:24.50 | cehteh | you scrolled down? |
| 13:25.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | OHHFUCK!!! |
| 13:25.12 | cehteh | lmao :) |
| 13:25.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | failwhale |
| 13:25.24 | cehteh | avantgarde web page design :) |
| 13:26.04 | cehteh | progressive :) |
| 13:26.59 | cehteh | as i saied, i kinda like the style, gives some surprise *but* having no fallback is FAIL .. and discoverability, hey you need to pass the entry exam :) |
| 13:27.22 | cehteh | anyways the device look ok, but no more |
| 13:27.42 | cehteh | from the very sparse things we know so far |
| 13:27.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | so WTF are they telling me (except "we are 7331 web programmers who invented another fuckedup way to garble webpages")? Do they actually take off on a colored swappable back cover for case??? OMG! |
| 13:28.08 | rikanee | cehteh: for a EUR400 off-contract device, it's okay, but not mind-blowing. |
| 13:28.24 | cehteh | my hopes for sailfisch on a note2 like device have not come true,but well, that was a wet dream |
| 13:29.07 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer05: yeah ignore that backcover thing .. wtf :P |
| 13:30.00 | cehteh | but still reasonable ok device, price ok, sailfish will likely perform well on it (i hope for more specs .. 1GB ram? what display res? what battery?) |
| 13:30.08 | rikanee | man, the Jolla would've been more exciting if they had a bezel-less screen to highlight the fact that it's all swi-- sweep, and no HW buttons. |
| 13:30.19 | rikanee | * except for power and volume, of course. |
| 13:30.46 | cehteh | my n900 still works, unless it dies i will not become a early adopter this time |
| 13:30.49 | rikanee | cehteh: IIRC they've released no HW specs aside from what's on http://join.jolla.com |
| 13:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | WHERE IS THE HW KBD, JOLLA?? |
| 13:31.26 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer05: bluetooth kb from amazon :P |
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| 13:31.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm about as amazed of this jolla device as I was about the lumia |
| 13:31.48 | cehteh | i made my mind .. hardware keyboards are out, i'd go for a BT one |
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| 13:32.26 | cehteh | its definately *not* the most amazing feature stuffed geek compliant gross hardware |
| 13:32.38 | cehteh | its just mainstream and ok .. take that |
| 13:33.27 | rikanee | cehteh: I'm holding my breath for what kind of expansion bus the Other Half is, exactly |
| 13:33.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I rather get a android device with really nice specs, and root it, then |
| 13:33.38 | SpeedEvil | it's unclear |
| 13:33.39 | cehteh | but hey bigger heavier expensiver .. would prolly not as good for 80% of their customers |
| 13:33.54 | SpeedEvil | the other halves pictured are thin plastic shells with NFC |
| 13:34.18 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer05: i really cant stand android, buyed that note2 for my wife, nice hardware, but android, bullshit |
| 13:34.20 | rikanee | right now it smells, and looks like NFC (there is what seems to be a tag on the cover), but if they have fancy things like i2c or whatnot, then the Jolla would be real exciting. |
| 13:34.23 | SpeedEvil | so, at the very worst there is a nice clip to attach a BT keybvoatd to |
| 13:34.44 | cehteh | its not that intuitive to use .. and then all the crap, spam, nag, adware |
| 13:34.53 | SpeedEvil | ideally, there would be bidirectional power and USB, and API/i2c |
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| 13:35.08 | SpeedEvil | spi |
| 13:35.30 | cehteh | clip on keyboard over nfc would do as well |
| 13:35.31 | SpeedEvil | even just bidirectional USB and power would be food |
| 13:35.33 | SpeedEvil | good |
| 13:35.42 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: or magnetometer even |
| 13:35.52 | teotwaki | I'm looking for a project name for an email server. |
| 13:35.53 | teotwaki | Ideas? |
| 13:36.04 | cehteh | lameduck? |
| 13:36.12 | SpeedEvil | serverus |
| 13:36.45 | teotwaki | that's actually pretty nifty |
| 13:37.08 | cehteh | whats an email server? SMTP, IMAP? |
| 13:37.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | cya |
| 13:37.30 | teotwaki | cehteh: email distribution server. |
| 13:37.43 | cehteh | so smtp? |
| 13:37.44 | teotwaki | cehteh: provides advanced programming abilities for email routing. |
| 13:37.56 | cehteh | you mean like .. |
| 13:38.00 | cehteh | sendmail? :) |
| 13:38.07 | teotwaki | No, not at all like sendmail. |
| 13:38.09 | cehteh | m4 ftw :P |
| 13:38.16 | rikanee | oh, regarding the SoC of the device, I'm guessing it's a 50/50 split either between Qualcomm and ST-Ericsson. |
| 13:38.27 | cehteh | jk |
| 13:38.52 | cehteh | bit anyways existing email servers can do that .. exim, postfix |
| 13:38.55 | SpeedEvil | wrote a sendmail.cf once by hand. He has never fully recovered. |
| 13:39.22 | cehteh | sendmail can do that even more, but people fail the configuration step |
| 13:39.50 | cehteh | SpeedEvil: back in times people did that w/o the m4 frontend |
| 13:40.00 | cehteh | thats pretty hardcore |
| 13:40.12 | SpeedEvil | yes, without m4 |
| 13:40.21 | teotwaki | cehteh: I don't believe there's any FS that enables to do what we need. I've been studying the subject since Septembre, FYI. |
| 13:40.39 | cehteh | ok have fun |
| 13:40.47 | vi__ | what about 1112112? |
| 13:41.00 | vi__ | also, what is that jolla thing? |
| 13:41.16 | vi__ | Is there an actual data bus going to the back? |
| 13:41.26 | cehteh | i am happy with the postfix/dovecot combo |
| 13:41.42 | SpeedEvil | vi__: not reveled |
| 13:41.50 | SpeedEvil | revealed |
| 13:42.03 | SpeedEvil | vi__: hints have been yes |
| 13:42.09 | cehteh | at worst only some contacts or notches :) |
| 13:42.20 | SpeedEvil | at worst just the notches |
| 13:42.26 | SpeedEvil | hopefully |
| 13:42.26 | SpeedEvil | l |
| 13:42.38 | SpeedEvil | at least USB both ways and power |
| 13:43.02 | SpeedEvil | in some ways I'm more interested in software stack than hw |
| 13:43.06 | vi__ | Because I had a colour changing front on my Ericsson 628 12 years ago. |
| 13:44.05 | rikanee | vi__: we can only hope the Other Half amounts to more than Xpress-On covers. |
| 13:44.18 | vi__ | polyphonic ringtones? |
| 13:44.21 | cehteh | the swipe UI is at least something outstanding, and i think its really intuitive and useable, but for the truth, time will tell |
| 13:44.49 | vi__ | snake 3d? |
| 13:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | 100EUR preorder credit for a “The Other Half” mystery thing?? WTF Jolla |
| 13:46.46 | rikanee | vi__, I was thinking more along the lines of a polyphonic ringtone /editor/ |
| 13:46.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | for all I can tell “The Other Half” could be a registration to their website as well |
| 13:49.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I honestly fail to see how I'm going to dial a number or a contact (even one out of 8 speeddial contacts, as on old simple Nokia featurephones) on that jolla device "without even looking at it" |
| 13:50.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd be surprised if at least REdial would be possible without looking at the screen to press the right button |
| 13:50.23 | vi__ | DocScrutinizer05: Have you not heard? Buttons are for old men! |
| 13:50.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | old and proud of it. I'm older than you ever will get |
| 13:50.50 | vi__ | rofl |
| 13:51.08 | vi__ | Every year I catch up, you get another year on me. |
| 13:51.39 | vi__ | But we must face facts. Buttons are an artefact of the past. |
| 13:51.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 13:51.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously |
| 13:52.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | but they abandoned buttons prematurely, without any proper alternative in the bottom drawer |
| 13:52.27 | vi__ | Despite the fact tactile controls allow one to use a device without vision. |
| 13:52.44 | vi__ | i.e. changing the volume of your music player while it is in your pocket. |
| 13:53.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | that would be true for really advanced texture or shape changing surfaces |
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| 13:53.38 | rikanee | vi__, don't worry, in time both volume and power buttons will be obsolete, and devices will always and forever be on (*) |
| 13:53.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, misinterpreted what you said |
| 13:54.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | volume buttons get useless as youth gets deaf with their 20th birthday the latest |
| 13:54.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | which conveniently solves the phonecall problem as well |
| 13:55.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 13:55.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ringtones getting replaced by vibrator patterns and electroshocks |
| 13:55.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody doing phonecalls in times of twitter |
| 13:56.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | goes searching for a rope |
| 13:56.26 | SpeedEvil | I for see buttons coming back when someone works out how to do the live extrudable buttons |
| 13:56.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah. see above |
| 13:57.07 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 13:57.16 | rikanee | I really doubt the longevity of what is essentially bubble wrap on a screen. |
| 13:58.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | nano can do wonders |
| 13:58.24 | SpeedEvil | rikanee: quite |
| 13:58.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | piezo plastic transparent film, whatever |
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| 15:12.53 | norayr | hey, I have installed community ssu for my friend on his n900, but we cannot see the rotation applet and enable autorotation |
| 15:13.01 | norayr | it's stable, may it be that's the reason? |
| 15:13.19 | norayr | before I have installed SSU on my n900 and it seemd to work |
| 15:13.24 | norayr | just after installation |
| 15:13.40 | norayr | but I guess I have installed testing version on my n900 |
| 15:20.29 | Sc0rpius | yeah I think if it's stable the applet is a different package |
| 15:20.36 | Sc0rpius | but you can still install it |
| 15:21.26 | Sc0rpius | status-area-orientationlock-applet |
| 15:21.28 | Sc0rpius | that's its name |
| 15:21.36 | norayr | thank you |
| 15:21.41 | Sc0rpius | you're welcome |
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| 15:50.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | sighs and envisions the pretty instructive text on cssu wiki frontpage |
| 15:50.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu |
| 15:50.41 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 15:51.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Note that both videos show installation (and features) of CSSU-T - for (on first glance missing) features of CSSU-S see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#Features<< |
| 15:51.57 | divVerent | BTW, I noticed that after installing cssu-t... |
| 15:52.01 | divVerent | cssu's repo is still active |
| 15:52.18 | divVerent | so apparently, if CSSU upgrades before CSSU-T, it'll pull CSSU's version then at first |
| 15:52.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>You find there how to use new features such as Thomas Perl's hildon-desktop improvements and the status of applications in Portrait Mode with forcerotation.<< |
| 15:52.25 | divVerent | will it later replace by a thumb version again? |
| 15:52.45 | divVerent | or should I better manually disable the CSSU repo? |
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| 15:53.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | err what now? cssu-t or thumb? |
| 15:53.15 | divVerent | cssu-t is not thumb? |
| 15:53.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | not at all |
| 15:53.22 | divVerent | oh, testing |
| 15:53.26 | divVerent | both start with t ;) |
| 15:53.41 | divVerent | but anyway... I am on cssu-thumb, and noticed that cssu's repo is still active |
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| 15:53.46 | divVerent | so I wonder if that is right or not |
| 15:53.53 | freemangordon | divVerent: it is |
| 15:54.02 | divVerent | good then |
| 15:54.03 | freemangordon | you need cssu-t repo enabled |
| 15:54.13 | freemangordon | along with cssu-thumb repo |
| 15:54.16 | divVerent | okay |
| 15:54.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, ask freemangordon, I never really wrapped my head around that particular problem of cssu-thunmb maintenance |
| 15:54.18 | divVerent | then all is right |
| 15:54.28 | divVerent | so if cssu-t upgrades a package and thumb lags behind |
| 15:54.36 | divVerent | I'd just get for the time being the non-thumb version? |
| 15:54.45 | divVerent | and it'll later upgrade to the thumb version when it is ready? |
| 15:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:54.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 15:55.22 | divVerent | BTW, I recently got the case of packages being offered for upgrade by apt that HAM does not... |
| 15:55.26 | divVerent | stuff like oss-wifi |
| 15:55.37 | divVerent | I then upgraded them all one by one, except for libhildon1... that one I did not dare to ;) |
| 15:56.16 | divVerent | but now I know why that's the case, so all is good |
| 15:56.49 | divVerent | I especially updated the CA certificates thing... that one sounded most important to upgrade ASAP |
| 15:56.54 | freemangordon | divVerent: did you enable cssu-devel by chance? |
| 15:57.05 | divVerent | not intentionally |
| 15:57.15 | divVerent | but let me check |
| 15:57.57 | divVerent | community-devel is in HAM's config, but disabled |
| 15:58.11 | divVerent | it has this nice <disabled/> tag |
| 15:59.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* seems Falk is torturing our db with that 13GB repligard table import ;-P |
| 16:00.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice load-test on whole maemo infra XD |
| 16:01.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | still not a ingle ALARM mail |
| 16:01.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | single even |
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| 16:01.44 | divVerent | that's what DB servers are for |
| 16:01.47 | divVerent | 13GB is nothing |
| 16:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I'm really wondering what made tmo VM load hit the roof |
| 16:01.54 | divVerent | even MySQL can handle that ;) |
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| 16:03.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly since for all I know tmo VM runs its own private mysqld |
| 16:04.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | ponders to throw another 2 CPUs into db VM |
| 16:08.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, won't help on 99.5%wa |
| 16:09.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | which also explains why other VMs go up in load |
| 16:09.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | they share the same strorage after all |
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| 18:30.39 | ShadowJK | the little I've run webservers, which is almost 0, usually the defaults for mysql/apache and so on assumes the machine has infinite ram |
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| 18:35.24 | Drathir | mysql depends of data trafic but can have high resource usage... |
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| 18:50.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL æ jolla CEO: >>The phone will be a smart phone for mass market. It will not be a tech phone intended for Linux hackers. Consumers are not able to hack kernel or flash new software for the device. |
| 18:50.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | - We are however planning on creating a development version of the phone for open source community, those interested in Linux and open systems and for partners.<< |
| 18:51.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | suuuuure |
| 18:51.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | like N950? |
| 18:51.15 | divVerent | in other words, the device you actually CAN get will be locked down to death? |
| 18:51.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, obviously |
| 18:51.29 | divVerent | well, I'd even bet that someone here in the channel will "jailbreak" the non-development version |
| 18:51.42 | divVerent | and put Maemo on it, haha |
| 18:51.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd not bet on any of that |
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| 18:52.07 | divVerent | that is, assuming it will get any sales at all ;) |
| 18:52.16 | divVerent | and not be as successless as a CERTAIN OTHER PHONE OS |
| 18:52.32 | divVerent | Windows Phone devices will be actually bought the very day one can install Android on them |
| 18:52.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | tivoization is thoroughtly understood and tested, and so far no way to "jailbreak" even N9 has been found |
| 18:52.46 | divVerent | then why does Apple fail every single time? |
| 18:53.06 | divVerent | it's just a matter of how much energy is put into it |
| 18:53.07 | Aoyagi | wait wait |
| 18:53.16 | Aoyagi | You're talking about WP here, let me join. |
| 18:53.22 | divVerent | yes, in the iPhone 4S and up they finally got the boot loader right... |
| 18:53.33 | divVerent | but every single OS release had again a root exploit |
| 18:53.53 | divVerent | I highly doubt Nokia is better there, or Jolla |
| 18:54.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: nonsense, a proper crypo-signed locked bootloader isn't breakable, no matter how much 'energy' you invest in it |
| 18:54.05 | divVerent | I mean... you even can use a Linux kernel exploit of the stone age kernel these devices tend to get shipped with |
| 18:54.18 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: except that you can start working AFTER the boot loader |
| 18:54.23 | divVerent | like the iPhone 4S and higher jailbreaks do |
| 18:54.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 18:54.39 | divVerent | the weakest link is what matters |
| 18:54.43 | divVerent | it doesn't HAVE to be the boot loader |
| 18:54.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not interested in a crippled hardware |
| 18:54.53 | divVerent | nobody is... hopefully |
| 18:55.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | see N9 and locked CAL in openmode, there you got your "jailbreaked" hw platform |
| 18:55.31 | Aoyagi | You know, if you could install Maemo/Meego to Lumia 920 and actually control it... well, that would be awesome. (and I hate that word) |
| 18:56.56 | thedead1440 | DocScrutinizer05: where did you get that quote? |
| 18:57.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | to have root access doesn't mean you control the complete hw, on a system that has shit like aegis on it / in it |
| 18:57.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ossimantylahti.com/2012/07/interview-of-jussi-hurmola-jolla-mobiles-managing-director/# |
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| 18:58.14 | thedead1440 | That interview is 10 months old; things have dramatically changed after that from what they have been saying |
| 18:58.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, indeed |
| 18:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | got fooled by somebody posting that link on a ML today |
| 18:59.05 | thedead1440 | i remember reading on IRC some quotes about how they didn't expect the backlash etc hence they decided to refocus their priorities and goals |
| 18:59.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hahaha |
| 19:00.01 | thedead1440 | that is why their SDK was delayed too so that they didn't have as many closed bobs as they initially thought was ok or whatever... can't remember their exact quotes though |
| 19:00.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I buy it nevertheless |
| 19:00.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | (your story) |
| 19:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm still afraid they have a culture of thinking "commercial == closed" |
| 19:01.55 | thedead1440 | the proof is in the pudding; like teotwaki said yesterday they have been upgraded from vapourware to droplet(mist)ware with the unveiling of the device. When the balance is unveiled we'll know for sure what they actually are doing |
| 19:03.00 | thedead1440 | an interview yesterday with Marc mentioned that they won't be opening up code till they ship their device mainly because they are afraid of someone using their code and pre-empting them |
| 19:03.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | this whole aegis shit been the wrong idea (tivoization, just done right), and it seems those Nokians who moved to jolla are still loving the idea |
| 19:03.48 | thedead1440 | hence why limited specs info was revealed so that they are not held to ransom for components |
| 19:04.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, maemo even *started* better than that, afaik |
| 19:04.58 | thedead1440 | re aegis; they have expressly answered "No DRM" when asked directly about aegis. I think if they do implement something similar it might be a watered-down version or something new but with the same locked-down issues |
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| 19:06.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's still the concept to rape open source, steal all you need and cook it in sulfuric acid in your secret labs in the souterrain, then eventually throw a "product" over the wall. That's not a community driven OS |
| 19:06.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: Nokia *always* said that aegis was NOT about DRM |
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| 19:07.26 | thedead1440 | i'm not well-versed with reading code from git but a number of people on TMO have said that nemo seems to be getting substantial contributions from Jolla |
| 19:07.44 | thedead1440 | code contributions* |
| 19:08.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, in my book nemo == jolla, for any relevant metrics |
| 19:09.54 | Aoyagi | I hear Jolla heavily based on Android... |
| 19:10.17 | thedead1440 | then that code is public; from what i understand the middleware of sailfish is the same as mer/nemo with jolla contributing their changes back. sailfish's ux and the bells+whistles have not yet been contributed back due to their fears |
| 19:10.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | as enthusiastic I've been about the N900 when it got announced, after already being in love with N810, as sceptical I've been for N9 and that never changed, and that jolla stuff doesn't change it either |
| 19:11.00 | thedead1440 | Aoyagi: nope; its linux based with android apps being available too |
| 19:11.31 | divVerent | one thing I wonder BTW |
| 19:11.41 | divVerent | if it is so easy to lock down an OS... why has Apple failed every single time? |
| 19:11.57 | divVerent | I mean, the jailbreakers always have to replace the kernel by a custom one (or add a kernel extension) |
| 19:12.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | Aoyagi: they have a dalvik emulator or sth |
| 19:12.10 | divVerent | in order to get rid of the signature verification |
| 19:12.30 | divVerent | so why doesn't Apple "simply" prevent loading of not signed kernels/kernel extensions? |
| 19:12.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc, I never looked into apple |
| 19:13.23 | divVerent | there can be two reasons: 1. Apple does, but there's always a buffer overrun somewhere, or 2. Apple for some reason doesn't even try |
| 19:13.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui they just rely on classical unix permissions and missing root account |
| 19:13.33 | divVerent | I had an iPhone, they do more |
| 19:13.39 | divVerent | the kernel verifies executable integrity |
| 19:13.51 | divVerent | so you can run non-signed scripts but not binaries |
| 19:14.16 | divVerent | also, there is a "sandbox" that is SEEMINGLY unrelated and prevents applications from accessing data of other applications, or do "evil" syscalls |
| 19:14.32 | divVerent | however, all the jailbreaks I've seen ALSO turn off the sandbox, making even apps from the Store possibly dangerous |
| 19:14.42 | Aoyagi | Oh, I see, thanks. |
| 19:14.46 | divVerent | confirmed this by placing a symlink in a FTP server app |
| 19:14.59 | divVerent | which then allowed browsing into other apps ONLY if jailbroken |
| 19:15.32 | divVerent | now, how do people actually "apply" jailbreaks? By somehow screwing up the boot process as root |
| 19:15.33 | *** join/#maemo xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 19:15.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | there you are |
| 19:15.39 | divVerent | be it via a manipulated backup file |
| 19:15.39 | Aoyagi | Ah, I misread that... "Sailfish uses a lightweight flavour of Linux, called the Mer operating system, and has the ability to run Android applications via a compatibility layer. Open-source Mer is based on MeeGo, Nokia's doomed mobile Linux project that Jolla's software engineers used to work on." |
| 19:15.50 | divVerent | or (older devices) by breaking the boot loader |
| 19:16.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, and meego IS aegis-infested |
| 19:17.00 | divVerent | basically, it LOOKS like the hardest part of an Apple jailbreak is replacing the kernel or kernel extensions |
| 19:17.21 | divVerent | once you're root AND unsandboxed, nothing prevents replacing the kernel any more |
| 19:17.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and despite the initial hopes you can't rip out aegis from kernel and hope for a "rooted" meego. You basically had to write everything anew if you'd plan to do that |
| 19:18.04 | divVerent | basically, such a thing CAN be done right - e.g. by closely auditing any unsandboxed root processes |
| 19:18.14 | GeneralAntilles | Assuming Aegis will be in Sailfish is a big damn assumption. |
| 19:18.26 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: why can't you? What would happen if aegis were just ripped out? |
| 19:18.34 | divVerent | it then won't run any signed binaries/blobs any more? |
| 19:18.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | and loading a patched kernel is possible on meego/harmattan only because Nokia allows it |
| 19:18.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and they didn't from beginning |
| 19:19.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | they changed the XLoader to allow that, after community bitched about the promissed openmode missing |
| 19:19.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: everything using aegisfs on N9 |
| 19:20.17 | divVerent | I mean... can't one "just" patch aegis to say yes to all access requests? |
| 19:20.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | to store stuff like SSL certs, mail accounts, whatnot else |
| 19:20.28 | divVerent | it SOUNDS like standard software cracking |
| 19:20.43 | divVerent | is also how the iOS jailbreakers break the kernel binary verification |
| 19:21.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so yes, you can rip out aegis of all the closed blobs of dialer, mailer, callendar, contacts, younameit |
| 19:21.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's worse than writing *everything* anew from scratch |
| 19:21.48 | divVerent | even if all you do is patching the kernel side of aegis to still allow "forbidden" requests? |
| 19:21.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and still stuff like CAL flash area stays locked once CPU mode gone secure->open |
| 19:22.22 | divVerent | thing is, I do wonder how Nokia can possibly get this working when Apple fails every single time |
| 19:22.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, apple took a way simpler approach |
| 19:22.43 | divVerent | Apple's main issue is so many unsandboxed root system services that do read data from flash |
| 19:22.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no aegisfs on apple |
| 19:23.04 | dos1 | Apple does not care that much about jailbreaking |
| 19:23.09 | divVerent | dos1: THAT may be it |
| 19:23.17 | divVerent | buit why do they "fix" it in every single iOS release then? |
| 19:23.36 | dos1 | because it's easy for them and they just want it to be some kind of PITA |
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| 19:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: patching kernel either makes device go into openmode, or will break boot all together |
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| 19:25.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | dependng on policy the coder of XLoader implemented |
| 19:25.14 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: assumign you already HAVE a runtime root exploit... |
| 19:25.22 | divVerent | which is also the assumption iOS jailbreaks require |
| 19:25.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | root is irrelevant |
| 19:25.32 | divVerent | I mean a runtime kernel space exploit |
| 19:25.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | your kernel will not get loaded by xloader |
| 19:25.51 | divVerent | once you can run code at kernel level, you can patch the kernel at runtime |
| 19:25.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | period |
| 19:26.01 | dos1 | divVerent: you'd have to find exploit to bootloader |
| 19:26.10 | divVerent | dos1: why doesn't a kernel exploit suffice? |
| 19:26.16 | divVerent | an exploit to run user code from kernel space |
| 19:26.24 | divVerent | Linux sometimes has one of these |
| 19:26.26 | divVerent | but not TOO often |
| 19:26.42 | divVerent | that SHOULD allow runtime patching the kernel |
| 19:26.59 | dos1 | ouch, runtime patching |
| 19:27.14 | divVerent | yes, patching a few bytes of aegis to say yes to all access attempts |
| 19:27.23 | dos1 | but what about CAL? |
| 19:27.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | first version of HARM had such exploit, you could load a kernel module (with tricks) and that module gave you full control over what aegis did, without switching device hw into openmode |
| 19:27.46 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: exactly |
| 19:27.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | they fixed that in second release of HARM |
| 19:27.54 | divVerent | and kernel level user code execution hole allows that |
| 19:28.03 | divVerent | of course, they are usually fixed easily |
| 19:28.07 | divVerent | and quickly by Linux kernel devs |
| 19:28.32 | divVerent | so basically it's counting on Nokia to not release an upgrade fast enough |
| 19:28.40 | divVerent | vendors tend to be slow at third party software upgrades |
| 19:29.04 | divVerent | basically, if device is 2 years old, AND had no kernel update during the time |
| 19:29.09 | divVerent | I would just ASSUME there is such a hole |
| 19:29.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but gaining control over execution permissions and file permissions still doesn't mean you can do what you want, since on next boot aegis will checksum all init.d/* files and whatnot else, and if any of those got touched, you get ~malf |
| 19:29.29 | divVerent | the hard part is finding it, Linux kernel changelogs tend to not mention these things |
| 19:29.34 | divVerent | or tend to mention them simply as crash fixes |
| 19:29.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~malf |
| 19:29.55 | infobot | well, malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg |
| 19:29.57 | divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: yes, this kind of "jailbreak" would need to be re-executed from e.g. SD card after every boot |
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| 19:30.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha, good luck |
| 19:30.16 | divVerent | also common for many Apple exploits |
| 19:30.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm definitely not interested in such crippled devices |
| 19:30.36 | divVerent | like, often you only had a "tethered" jailbreak because the jailbreakers had no way yet to store it persistently |
| 19:30.41 | divVerent | (as doing THAT requires a further exploit) |
| 19:31.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~aegis |
| 19:31.13 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 19:31.32 | Aoyagi | Sounds suspiciously like UEFI. |
| 19:31.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | aegis my ass |
| 19:31.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | Aoyagi: it is |
| 19:31.44 | Aoyagi | :( |
| 19:31.57 | divVerent | Aoyagi: yes, you can build that same thing on top of UEFI Secure Boot |
| 19:33.10 | divVerent | I just don't believe Nokia, out of all those who tried, got such a thing to work flawlessly |
| 19:33.21 | divVerent | yet still don't want to buy such a device |
| 19:33.45 | Aoyagi | So that Aegise'd device, it was bricked? |
| 19:34.08 | divVerent | that's what aegis does if it sees a problem... PROABBLY can be reflashed somehow, but that's it |
| 19:34.25 | divVerent | but a VM running aegis AND an old linux kernel COULD be interesting for playing around :) |
| 19:34.42 | Aoyagi | Hah, would you consider minefield a playground? |
| 19:34.58 | Aoyagi | At least those are my impressions about the whole thing so far :D |
| 19:35.07 | divVerent | Aoyagi: I talked about a VM :) |
| 19:35.15 | divVerent | that can be snapshotted, reverted, etc. |
| 19:35.49 | Aoyagi | Yeah, still tho. Oh well, I guess it could be considered a game, heh. |
| 19:35.57 | divVerent | the part that makes this hard BTW is that one would need to go right from sandboxed userspace to kernel space... quite MANY barriers to break |
| 19:36.26 | divVerent | so even if a hole is found, quite likely aegis (or is polciies whereever it gets these from) may be adjustable to fix the hole |
| 19:36.49 | divVerent | e.g. if the exploit involves mmap(), you could just ban mmap() |
| 19:37.44 | Aoyagi | Isn't that kind of a duct type solution? |
| 19:37.50 | divVerent | (Linux actually at some point restricted mmap() for that very reason... the null address is no longer mmap()able so one can't that easily exploit kernel NULL pointer dereferences) |
| 19:38.04 | divVerent | Aoyagi: frameworks like Aegis are great for implementing duct tape |
| 19:38.06 | divVerent | even the OS X sandbox is |
| 19:38.14 | Aoyagi | hah |
| 19:38.16 | divVerent | (i.e. the iOS sandbox OS X recently got too) |
| 19:38.45 | divVerent | like, the old Linux mmap+NULL pointer dereference exploits would probably be a simple syscall argument match rule for such a framework |
| 19:39.16 | divVerent | the easiest way, but also most likely to be impossible, would be a buffer overrun in parsing those manifest files :) |
| 19:39.22 | divVerent | but I expect that THIS part is actually coded right |
| 19:39.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't do a proper aegis VM |
| 19:39.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | aegis asks for the certs in a secure region of flash that you can't read out |
| 19:40.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | everything in HARM does that, e.g. for all the aegisfs |
| 19:40.10 | divVerent | there is no reason why e.g. VirtualBox or VMWare could not emulate such a region |
| 19:40.29 | divVerent | it may involve however rekeying |
| 19:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, but how would you *copy* it? |
| 19:40.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 19:40.39 | divVerent | as you can't read out the actually "correct" vendor keys |
| 19:40.47 | divVerent | you can't, you'd have to generate your own keypair |
| 19:40.54 | divVerent | and only test against applications signed by that |
| 19:41.00 | divVerent | (or possiby re-sign other apps) |
| 19:41.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that keypair won't work for OVI, for * and for ** |
| 19:41.17 | divVerent | right |
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| 19:41.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you reinvented aegis, just without the core functions |
| 19:41.41 | divVerent | it'd be merely an experiment to find a hole in Aegis + old kernel... which, once it worked, could be tried on an actual device |
| 19:41.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather, you re-invented HARM |
| 19:42.06 | divVerent | no, I would not even care for any applications |
| 19:42.19 | divVerent | the only goal would be to have enough of the sandbox working so one can try breaking out of it |
| 19:42.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | there is no sandbox |
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| 19:42.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | the OS is the sandbox |
| 19:42.46 | divVerent | Aegis basically is that |
| 19:42.48 | divVerent | sure |
| 19:43.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk o/ |
| 19:43.04 | divVerent | it still is a Linux kernel "with some extra code", and the goal of "breaking out" is, say, /dev/mem access |
| 19:43.34 | divVerent | but even succeeding there is far from an actual jailbreak |
| 19:44.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, discuss it over at #harmattan, with jonni and djszapi |
| 19:44.15 | divVerent | BTW, do any platforms do per-page executable memory signatures? |
| 19:44.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that guy who wrote inception |
| 19:44.24 | divVerent | so a manipulated code in RAM will no longer be executed? |
| 19:44.47 | divVerent | because, THAT would actually block the common ways to "jailbreak" such a system |
| 19:45.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik ARM security concept already allows that |
| 19:45.19 | divVerent | oh, OK... THEN it may ACTUALLY be unbreakable |
| 19:45.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's actually used in some phones that share RAM between AP and modem |
| 19:45.30 | divVerent | but again, why doesn't Apple then... performance :P |
| 19:46.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know Thor modem chips do that, when using ram bridge |
| 19:46.08 | divVerent | because, if the whole kernel lives on such signature-protected memory pages, changing access checks in the kernel at runtime is hopeless |
| 19:46.39 | divVerent | changing kernel DATA stays possible, but... hard to achieve a jailbreak solely by that |
| 19:47.15 | divVerent | especially if Aegis works like a good sandbox system SHOULD work |
| 19:47.40 | divVerent | (and e.g. keep the policies on same way protected pages) |
| 19:47.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, i'm not interested in jailbreaks. I'm interested on an OPEN platform that *invites* me to mess with it, not tries to block me |
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| 19:47.55 | divVerent | agreed |
| 19:48.06 | divVerent | I was mainly saying that IF such a thing gets popular, it eventually WILL get broken |
| 19:48.15 | divVerent | not that I would automatically want to buy it then |
| 19:48.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I got better targets for my creativity than jailbreaks and "who's got the longer..." with aegis developers |
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| 19:49.31 | divVerent | right |
| 19:49.49 | divVerent | I find it mainly interesting from the security perspective... as some things such a system does could also help e.g. servers |
| 19:49.56 | divVerent | you do not WANT exploit code to be able to run |
| 19:50.41 | divVerent | a "properly TCPA'd" platform could be nice for a server... IF the keys are in the hands of the admins |
| 19:50.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | when HARM's security team in their eternal wisdom decide that it's "too dangerous" to allow any app developer to make the indicator LED flash, then that's it for you. You're restricted with your new leete app to a customer base that's willing to "jailbreak" their N9 |
| 19:51.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's *not* a made-up example |
| 19:51.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's the hard bitter truth |
| 19:51.21 | divVerent | sure, same with Apple |
| 19:51.26 | divVerent | this is what I hated about iOS most |
| 19:51.32 | divVerent | no app can access data of other apps... |
| 19:51.45 | divVerent | which means you don't just need one MP3 player app and one FTP server app and one file manager app |
| 19:51.48 | divVerent | but you need ONE that does all of these |
| 19:51.58 | divVerent | so that you can FTP MP3s to the iPhone then copy/rename them there |
| 19:52.11 | *** join/#maemo konelix__ (~konelix@190.143.200.28) |
| 19:52.13 | divVerent | so the wheel is reinvented by every app |
| 19:52.21 | divVerent | and no two apps with integrated file manager have this file manager work the same way |
| 19:52.24 | Apic | What. Me worry? |
| 19:52.38 | divVerent | Apic: no, that was only a rant about iOS :) |
| 19:52.45 | divVerent | Maemo is great because it does NOT have this flaw |
| 19:53.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course there is ZILCH documentation that says "sorry dude, no access to indicator LED". You have to learn about that the hard way, possibly at end of your development when you test the final product on customer devices instead of your developer device |
| 19:53.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | which happened exactly like that to MohammadAG |
| 19:53.52 | divVerent | ouch |
| 19:54.05 | divVerent | OK, Apple does the "same thing"... use of "undocumented APIs" is forbidden |
| 19:54.19 | divVerent | guess what happens often to devs who developed for OS X first? |
| 19:54.27 | divVerent | they use some API they knew from OS X, and it works on iOS... |
| 19:54.35 | divVerent | then their app gets rejected because this particular function is not on the iOS docs |
| 19:55.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that day my HARM devices collect dust |
| 19:55.39 | divVerent | and OF COURSE Apple provides no ways for developers to check their apps for use of "bad" functions |
| 19:55.43 | divVerent | before submitting them to the Store |
| 19:55.56 | divVerent | so it's basically the same... |
| 19:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 19:56.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | unbearable |
| 19:56.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | so, I'm afk |
| 19:56.22 | divVerent | add to this that the search on apple.com is abysmal... |
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| 20:04.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((a "properly TCPA'd" platform could be nice for a server... IF the keys are in the hands of the admins)) ... is what I always hear from a lot of aegis defendants. In my book there's no added security in any TCPA compared to what you can achieve with file permissions, user rights, posix permissions and e.g. selinux |
| 20:05.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | au contraire, such a setup is easier to understand, easier to maintain, and thus inherently safer |
| 20:05.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | once you find an exploit in either of both, you're busted anyway |
| 20:06.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no TCPA will help to avoid exploits. TCPA is for one sole purpose: NOT give the keys to the admins |
| 20:07.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~trust |
| 20:07.01 | infobot | from memory, trust is safe |
| 20:07.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 20:09.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg |
| 20:09.56 | Aoyagi | Do you know what I love about Germany? The way they (you) are trying to protect personal privacy. |
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| 20:21.15 | *** join/#maemo konelix (~konelix@190.143.170.76) |
| 20:21.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~trust |
| 20:21.35 | infobot | trust is, like, safe, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg |
| 20:22.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | which been quite an interesting fight with that b*tch, to teach her about "trust" |
| 20:22.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | since: |
| 20:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~trust is something else |
| 20:22.47 | infobot | ACTION looks at is something else suspiciously |
| 20:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 20:23.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~trust is also something else |
| 20:23.24 | infobot | ACTION looks at is also something else suspiciously |
| 20:23.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys trust |
| 20:24.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem of "grammar free" syntax |
| 20:24.58 | Aoyagi | hah |
| 20:25.25 | Aoyagi | "trust me you really" sounds interesting |
| 20:25.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal trust me you reall |
| 20:25.47 | infobot | ACTION looks at me you reall suspiciously |
| 20:25.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal trust me you really |
| 20:25.57 | infobot | ACTION looks at me you really suspiciously |
| 20:26.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | F U!! |
| 20:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~factinfo trust me you really |
| 20:26.42 | infobot | trust me you really -- created by geiseri <geiseri@209.83.63.64> at Fri Dec 8 21:50:07 2000 (4546 days); it has been requested 2 times, last by pcj at Fri Nov 21 10:46:58 2008. |
| 20:27.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | factinfo cmd: trust (.*?) |
| 20:27.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~factinfo cmd: trust (.*?) |
| 20:27.56 | infobot | cmd: trust (.*?) -- created by maquis <n=maquis@c-24-17-72-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net> at Tue Sep 11 14:43:12 2007 (2079 days); it has been requested 10 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 1m 59s ago. |
| 20:28.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~forget cmd: trust (.*?) |
| 20:28.11 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: i forgot cmd: trust (.*?) |
| 20:28.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal trust me you really |
| 20:28.18 | infobot | "trust me you really" is "<REPLY> are a hot pile of steaming man flesh..." |
| 20:29.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry maquis (whoever that is), your factoid (cmd) collided with ~13 others |
| 20:30.56 | Aoyagi | The bot sounds full. |
| 20:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | full like drunk? |
| 20:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | she sometimes sounds and acts like that |
| 20:31.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~attack Aoyagi |
| 20:31.43 | infobot | ACTION grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing Aoyagi |
| 20:31.50 | Aoyagi | Full of information nearing critical overflow thresholds :D |
| 20:31.55 | Aoyagi | nooo |
| 20:32.02 | Aoyagi | runs around the channel in panic |
| 20:32.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~status |
| 20:32.23 | infobot | Since Thu May 16 18:12:47 2013, there have been 38 modifications, 263 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 125 commands. I have been awake for 5d 2h 19m 36s this session, and currently reference 119057 factoids. I'm using about 24152 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 1385.83/27.08 child 0/0 |
| 20:32.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, only 119057 factoids |
| 20:32.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess the mysql db can handle a few more |
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| 20:34.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | it seems more like somebody didn't consider that "cmd: xy $parameter" fill cause headaches when overriding factoids and even commands of the form "xy ab cd" |
| 20:34.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/fill/will/ |
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| 20:39.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | bot should _first_ check if "xy ab cd" is a valid internal command, _then_ check if it's a 100% match on any simple factoid, and only _then_ match against cmd factoids, and even there it shoud try best match of number of parameters between defined cmd factoid and input. So that a input of "xy ab cd" matches "cmd: xy $1 $1" before it matches "cmd: xy $1" or "cmd: xy $1 $2 $3" |
| 20:40.13 | Aoyagi | @_@ |
| 20:42.04 | ab | DocScrutinizer05: could you please mangle that input which mentions my nickname? :) |
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| 20:46.47 | RST38h | ab: He did write "xy" and "cd" around it! |
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| 21:02.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ab: sorry |
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| 21:03.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ab: I guess you never join any German channels, eh? ;-) |
| 21:03.12 | ab | DocScrutinizer05: :) |
| 21:03.33 | ab | DocScrutinizer05: I used to work in a company that had 'ab <place>' in its name |
| 21:03.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if there's a user nick "is" |
| 21:04.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | or "it" |
| 21:04.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~seen the |
| 21:04.44 | infobot | the <ba3034cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.48.52.204> was last seen on IRC in channel #sporewiki, 3h 59m 41s ago, saying: 'Hello'. |
| 21:05.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I bet this guy had lots of fun |
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| 21:05.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki the the |
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| 21:27.29 | Woody14619a | Le sigh...32G micro-sd/hc cards, class 10. $24. |
| 21:28.28 | Apic | *shrug* |
| 21:30.03 | Woody14619 | Just odd to see micro-cards breaking the $1/G limit... bound to happen, but... |
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| 21:51.39 | SpeedEvil | quite. |
| 21:52.32 | SpeedEvil | if your not keeping up, you tend to have the 'wait, that's got to be a mistake' reaction |
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| 23:46.53 | Gear_ | I paid at least a buck per gig 9 months ago |
