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| 01:52.34 | Apic | msg I just lost the Game. |
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| 06:23.02 | Apic | Morning. |
| 06:28.18 | kerio | moin |
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| 06:33.55 | shape | Hello, I installed the huge easy-debian file and iceweasel and openoffice won't launch. I simply get the desktop again after trying to launch them (the image was debian-m5-estel.img.ext3.lzma). Any ideas? |
| 06:36.11 | kerio | do they do the same from within lxde? |
| 06:36.26 | shape | no |
| 06:37.04 | shape | kerio in lxde there is no openoffice tho. only libre, which works |
| 06:39.21 | shape | kerio: ive also installed the debian-m5-v3e.img.ext2.lzma and still no avail :( |
| 06:39.47 | kerio | so that means that openoffice won't launch because, yknow, it's /not there/ |
| 06:40.00 | shape | is that bad or should i just install only one image |
| 06:40.37 | kerio | idk, do whatever feels right i suppose |
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| 06:41.05 | kerio | if the image doesn't have certain programs and it has other programs, you might want to change the .desktop files to match |
| 06:41.42 | shape | kerio: oh i see. |
| 06:42.39 | Macer | are there any email servers that do server side gpg/pgp encryption? |
| 06:43.48 | shape | kerio: so OpenOffice and Iceweasel, even tho they appear in Applications, they would still be launched through the Debian chroot. Correct? Which means, since they have not been installed with the image, those are just bad shortcuts |
| 06:43.56 | kerio | yep |
| 06:44.34 | shape | kerio: was that answer for me or for the other person? |
| 06:44.44 | kerio | yep |
| 06:44.58 | kerio | :D |
| 06:45.31 | shape | kerio: so you say I can somehow bring libreoffice into the Applications menu of the phone? |
| 06:45.46 | shape | out of the Debian LXDE, and make a shortcut just like the OpenOffice broken shortcut is? |
| 06:45.50 | kerio | yeah |
| 06:46.10 | shape | kerio: is there any documentation for that? I really don't know how to do it :( |
| 06:46.25 | kerio | look at /usr/share/applications/hildon |
| 06:46.41 | kerio | only files with the .desktop extension count |
| 06:46.59 | kerio | so copy the one from openoffice, move it away, and change the name of the binary inside of it |
| 06:47.12 | kerio | it's partially self-explanatory |
| 06:50.19 | shape | kerio: Oh, i just have to change the exec right? i.e. exec= debbie iceweasel. I can change it to exec=debbie chromium |
| 06:54.39 | kerio | yeah |
| 06:54.51 | kerio | well, you might want to change the name too :) |
| 06:55.33 | shape | kerio: but i like the weasel :( |
| 06:55.43 | kerio | but it's chromium, not iceweasel |
| 06:55.53 | shape | kerio: I know haha, and icon as well |
| 06:56.43 | shape | kerio: I couldn't find documentation about the 3 images I get to choose from. I am confused which packages they contain, etc. any ideas? |
| 06:56.55 | kerio | beats me, i don't use easy debian |
| 06:57.03 | shape | kerio what do you use? |
| 06:57.04 | kerio | just know the general principles on how it works |
| 06:57.10 | kerio | ...idk, nothing |
| 06:58.15 | shape | kerio: btw thanks for your help! Much appreciated <3 |
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| 07:00.17 | kerio | yw, glad to help |
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| 10:07.26 | merlin1991 | heh this could start a new flamewar: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMzNjg |
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| 10:09.59 | Hurrian | merlin1991: uhh, wow. |
| 10:11.09 | Hurrian | Well, that is another way to build a Linux system. |
| 10:11.22 | Apic | B-) |
| 10:12.08 | Hurrian | It's not exactly modular, but it is more integrated, which mimics Launchd (OSX) and smss+kernel (WinNT). |
| 10:25.14 | kerio | >:( |
| 10:25.26 | kerio | i *really* hope linus starts treating udev as hostile |
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| 10:27.04 | Hurrian | kerio: I predict that Pulseaudio will show up as a systemd component. |
| 10:36.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukes a bit |
| 10:37.01 | jacekowski | udev isn't as half as bad as pa |
| 10:37.35 | jacekowski | and besides, now kernel has management features in it so udev isn't really that important again |
| 10:37.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh c'mon. what really scares me is dbus in PID:1 |
| 10:37.44 | kerio | hehe |
| 10:37.51 | jacekowski | ? |
| 10:37.55 | kerio | you mean pid 2 |
| 10:37.55 | jacekowski | systemd has no dbus in it |
| 10:38.03 | jacekowski | it just starts dbus as soon as possible |
| 10:38.22 | jacekowski | oh, you mean dbus communication? |
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| 10:39.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>The libsystemd-bus module is a minimalist yet complete D-Bus client library that doesn't aim to be portable, abstract, and tries to be nice in C. This systemd implementation is much leaner than upstream libdbus.<< says it all |
| 10:39.56 | kerio | *client* |
| 10:40.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, I bet in 3 years Lennart has finished his secret plan to integrate kernel into systemd |
| 10:41.51 | kerio | i doubt anyone except linus actually *wants* to maintain the kernel |
| 10:41.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | since, how else could you get voice alarm shoutings via network audio during kernel init |
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| 10:47.05 | jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: also, a web browser in the kernel |
| 10:47.26 | jon_y | after all users don't want to use the internets |
| 10:47.36 | jon_y | s/don't// |
| 10:49.19 | jon_y | alternatively boot the kernel of the cloud |
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| 10:53.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | why kernel, systemd can provide those remaining 5 functions too (the rest will have migrated to systemd anyway in a few years) |
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| 10:57.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders when Linus will kick out that shit from Linux and declare that Linux is not a windows clone |
| 10:57.54 | Apic | 2 |
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| 11:17.53 | jacekowski | DocScrutinizer05: if linux is to have any real marketshare on desktop it will have to be |
| 11:19.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | jacekowski: then lennart and company may spawn a this-once-been-linux-now-its-a-commercial-crap-product |
| 11:19.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>doesn't aim to be portable, abstract,<< GTFO |
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| 11:22.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't want a system init that requires PA and framebuffer and d-bus, since that's absolute bullshit for my embedded controller on my microwave. And one of the huge advantages of linux been that it's NOT been specialized so it only works on x86 workstations |
| 11:22.36 | jon_y | jacekowski: there is already a windows |
| 11:22.40 | jon_y | leave that to MS |
| 11:22.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 11:22.46 | jon_y | or ReactOS |
| 11:23.17 | jon_y | stupid shit don't go on where Linux is prevalent |
| 11:23.25 | jon_y | embedded systems |
| 11:24.13 | jon_y | too often, these people forget the desktop isn't the only computer system |
| 11:24.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ubuntu and lennart-OS can do whatever they want, but stop pushing shit into linux! |
| 11:26.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | hell, Michel de Boer (developer of twinklephone) refused to use dbus for IPC, since it not been available on all *nix platforms, he used pipes instead. What does Lennart with his systemd shit? The opposite |
| 11:26.56 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: why pipes and not unix sockets? :( |
| 11:27.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: why not candy |
| 11:27.45 | kerio | because candy can't be used to do IPC on unix |
| 11:27.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's wrong with named fifos? |
| 11:28.00 | kerio | less access control |
| 11:28.08 | jacekowski | dbus is pipes |
| 11:28.28 | kerio | unix sockets let you identify who's the user connecting, afaik |
| 11:28.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ???? |
| 11:28.47 | kerio | yes, it's kinda useless for twinklephone |
| 11:28.52 | jacekowski | let's use tcp sockets for ipc |
| 11:29.13 | jacekowski | and oident |
| 11:29.18 | kerio | hahaha |
| 11:29.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I'm not interested in this noise right now |
| 11:29.42 | jacekowski | you will know who's connecting, it's portable to pretty much any platform |
| 11:29.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, probably my fault |
| 11:30.00 | jacekowski | and, well, IMO, OpenRC is the way to go |
| 11:30.24 | jacekowski | it's sysv compatible, fast, and has parallel dependency based start |
| 11:30.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | IMO retiring Lennart and hiring a few decent system architects is the way to go |
| 11:30.51 | jacekowski | but saying that, systemd is fastest at the moment |
| 11:30.53 | kerio | you mean... "retire" lennart? |
| 11:30.57 | jon_y | so, systemd REQUIRES dbus? |
| 11:31.00 | jacekowski | no |
| 11:31.01 | kerio | grabs his baseball bat |
| 11:31.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: yes |
| 11:31.14 | jaska | *click clack* |
| 11:31.17 | jacekowski | full fedora starting in 1s from grub to working gnome |
| 11:31.38 | kerio | you know what's even faster than that? a system that doesn't boot |
| 11:32.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | "woring gnome" BWAHAHAHAHA - sorry uhm |
| 11:32.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | working even |
| 11:32.32 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: systemd is so good it can warp you back in time to 5 years ago, when gnome wasn't shit |
| 11:32.43 | kerio | and, as a bonus, there's also no systemd |
| 11:33.10 | jon_y | does debian upstream uses systemd? |
| 11:33.13 | kerio | no |
| 11:33.18 | jon_y | good |
| 11:33.38 | jacekowski | i think debian is moving towards upstart |
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| 11:34.01 | jon_y | as long as it doesn't require /usr mounted magically at boot |
| 11:35.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, the most brainfucked rationale I heard during 20 years |
| 11:36.08 | jon_y | somehow TB sized disk on desktops mean TB sized disk available on embedded boards too |
| 11:36.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | "originally /usr been meant to get mounted late (or not at all), but we ignored that so often now that it makes sense to drop this requirement and instead define /usr to be mandatory during early boot" |
| 11:36.26 | jon_y | don't get me started on those "disk space is cheap" arguments :( |
| 11:37.07 | jacekowski | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:37.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | again a idiotic focus on x86 workstations only |
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| 11:37.37 | jacekowski | but messed up /usr should still allow basic system to boot with tools required to recover /usr |
| 11:37.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~optification |
| 11:37.58 | infobot | optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3" |
| 11:38.14 | jon_y | can system boot without systemd malfunctioning? |
| 11:38.22 | jon_y | s/without/with/ |
| 11:38.34 | jacekowski | no |
| 11:38.41 | jacekowski | but it's the same for any other init system |
| 11:38.41 | jon_y | wellshit |
| 11:38.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~lart systemd |
| 11:38.45 | infobot | lowers systemd's priority |
| 11:38.47 | jacekowski | it's just that systemd has more things to go wrong |
| 11:39.03 | jon_y | that's the joke |
| 11:39.37 | jacekowski | thing is, average user will not be able to fix it anyways |
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| 11:39.53 | jon_y | really |
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| 11:39.56 | jacekowski | if it's systemd that went wrong, or something during boot process that prevented X from starting |
| 11:40.18 | jacekowski | all you will get is "i have black screen and nothing is working" |
| 11:40.24 | jon_y | is there anything wrong with making it easier for users to fix it? |
| 11:41.01 | jon_y | windows has safemode |
| 11:41.09 | jacekowski | systemd has safemode |
| 11:41.09 | jon_y | does linux safemode work? |
| 11:41.22 | jacekowski | but thing is, linux safemode means commandline |
| 11:41.23 | jon_y | does it work with a missing /usr? |
| 11:41.32 | jacekowski | yes it does |
| 11:41.42 | jon_y | windows has safemode with commandline |
| 11:41.55 | jacekowski | sort of |
| 11:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | who the heck cares about wndows?? |
| 11:42.13 | jacekowski | normal safemode still gives you gui |
| 11:42.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | linux IS NOT a windows clone |
| 11:42.27 | jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: average user == windows |
| 11:42.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | buntkuh is |
| 11:42.39 | jon_y | yeah that |
| 11:42.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | so lart canonical, lart buntkuh, lart lennart |
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| 11:43.07 | jacekowski | linux is an operating system, and as that there are some requirements for it |
| 11:43.16 | jacekowski | and those requirements are very similiar for windows and linux |
| 11:43.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHAHA |
| 11:43.28 | jon_y | not making /usr mandatory is good |
| 11:43.33 | jacekowski | provide user with usable interface (for most people it means gui) |
| 11:43.56 | jacekowski | if that fails, in most cases someone is going to get a phone call "my computer is not working" |
| 11:43.57 | jon_y | please, these days, the CLI is most user friendly |
| 11:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | BZZZZ you're out - unallowed restricting focus to desktop workstations |
| 11:44.17 | jacekowski | bs |
| 11:44.21 | jon_y | I get to walk through Windows 8 "metro" with my mom |
| 11:44.52 | jon_y | sure as hell can't find my way until the sales person came |
| 11:45.08 | jacekowski | well, my sisters had no problems with metro |
| 11:45.11 | jacekowski | sister* |
| 11:45.34 | deepy | I still have problems with "metro" and I've used it for quite a while now |
| 11:45.38 | jon_y | that makes one of them |
| 11:46.24 | jacekowski | well, i don't have problems with it |
| 11:46.41 | jacekowski | i don't use start menu myself |
| 11:46.58 | jacekowski | if it has more than 20 programs in it takes less to type the name of the app into search box |
| 11:47.29 | jon_y | average joe does |
| 11:47.54 | jon_y | too, by pinning frequently used programs |
| 11:48.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody cares about average joe |
| 11:48.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's MS to take care about those guys |
| 11:48.24 | jon_y | I'll get OSX when I want it |
| 11:49.16 | jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: point is, Windows isn't user friendly these days |
| 11:49.26 | jon_y | no longer the defining term |
| 11:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | jacekowski: now that's for sure the most poor and non-thought argument you issued today. even I don't know the name of my 50 or 100 apps I have in my startmenu |
| 11:50.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | the least joe avergae does |
| 11:50.44 | jacekowski | if you don't know the name of it, how do you find it in classic start menu? |
| 11:50.54 | jon_y | by browsing it? |
| 11:51.13 | jacekowski | that takes time |
| 11:51.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | by looking at all the options/entries in eg submenu "games" |
| 11:51.25 | deepy | it's still faster than the search for me |
| 11:51.31 | deepy | though I have I/O issues |
| 11:51.40 | jon_y | how else would you find it if you don't know the name? |
| 11:51.53 | jacekowski | search for me takes 1s including typing few leters of the name |
| 11:52.07 | jacekowski | and i can do it without even touching the mouse |
| 11:52.13 | deepy | search for me takes 5s on average, 30s on a bad run |
| 11:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey hotkeys!! \o/ what an innovative concept |
| 11:52.40 | jon_y | jacekowski: you are still evading the question |
| 11:52.56 | deepy | jon_y: there's an app list in the dashboard, no? |
| 11:53.57 | jon_y | isn't that called a start menu list by definition? |
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| 11:56.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:57.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | not 'Application Lancher Style' |
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| 11:59.52 | thedead1440 | Metro is just a waste of time; why should I have to face the Metro menu everytime instead of the StartMenu. Yes there are plugins to fix this but why break it |
| 12:00.34 | Hurrian | thedead1440, apparently they didn't want multiple UIs for touch and desktops. |
| 12:00.36 | thedead1440 | I switched to Linux thanks to Win8; its just so much more easier to use without the nonsense of W8... Have put W7 on VB to use Office |
| 12:01.22 | thedead1440 | Hurrian: yup and its so stupid trying to navigate the metro menu using a trackpad on the laptop... very inefficient |
| 12:01.30 | Hurrian | ouch, don't bother. |
| 12:01.36 | Hurrian | it's inefficient even with a mouse. |
| 12:01.41 | thedead1440 | hehe |
| 12:02.02 | Hurrian | the times I had to use Metro, thankfully it inherited the Start menu behavior of "type to search". |
| 12:02.39 | thedead1440 | yeah i used to use type to search but many times you just want to browse the menu to get to your app |
| 12:03.02 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, kerio: https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/3/26/580 |
| 12:03.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | and to those who maybe never have noticed or forgot about it: classical shartmenu has hotkeys (the underlined keys you use with <alt>+key), thus I have onscreen help with first keystroke that opens startmenu, I type <alt>+G for "games", again I have a convenient list of options onscreen, and with 3rd keystroke I start my app already |
| 12:03.09 | thedead1440 | its like unlearning regular patterns to fit with M$' philosophy... |
| 12:04.22 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, what do you think about I2C_SLAVE_FORCE flag? |
| 12:05.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: what does that flag do? |
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| 12:08.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's that lars clausen guy supposed to "guess" about what that flag does? |
| 12:11.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | either he knows exactly what that flag means and has a comprehensive understanding about how it works and what it casues, or he dang doesn't touch it |
| 12:12.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | > >I don't think this will caus edamage to the hardware << is ... W*T*F??!! |
| 12:13.14 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, I tried to understand what kernel doing with that flag, but I was not able to trace it |
| 12:13.47 | Pali | it allow opening i2c device from userpace if some kernel driver has assigned that i2c address |
| 12:14.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | the more a good reason this lars guy shall explain to gory detail what it does and why he needs it and why it's proven save |
| 12:14.45 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, I think that *you* should write mail what to ask, because you know more about i2c buses |
| 12:14.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: aah OK. Then how TF can lars say "I think access is still serialized"? |
| 12:15.37 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, I think that i2c functions exported by kernel to drivers are serialized... but really I'm not sure too |
| 12:16.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | will kernel driver lock such userland access till kernel access is finished? will userland block kernel to interfere with any userland-borne I2C data transfer to a particlar device? |
| 12:16.33 | Pali | because I really do not know what happen if two kernel threads (with more core boards) will call i2c kernel get/set function from kernel driver on same i2c bus |
| 12:17.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly |
| 12:17.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither do I |
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| 12:17.50 | Pali | I think that above problem is fixed in kernel (otherwise all multi cpu devices can be damaged) |
| 12:18.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, since that nonsensical flag usually isn't used. Or am I mistaken here? |
| 12:18.27 | Pali | and FORCE flag only allow you to use i2c kernel funcions for same device which is already assigned to some kernel driver |
| 12:19.12 | Pali | so in that case (with FORCE flag) it will be same situation as for two kernel threads with calling kernels i2c funcions for same i2c bus |
| 12:20.38 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, that FORCE flag is for userspace and it allow userspace to call kernel i2c funcions. And that i2c funcions can be called without any restrictions by *any* kernel driver |
| 12:21.40 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, it is really up to you to ask technical questions about that kernel api and hw i2c access |
| 12:22.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | so which level are those i2c functions? are they bundling several transfers? are they even locking a range of chip addresses on a i2c bus until the process who opened the i2c interface will close it again? |
| 12:25.12 | Pali | in kernel there is i2c_transfer function which will get more messages and will transfter it |
| 12:25.23 | Pali | there is no open/close |
| 12:26.39 | Pali | each message for i2c_transfer needs: address, flags, buffer and length |
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| 12:27.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | if that's atomic then it's basically OK |
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| 12:28.32 | Pali | "a more complex version can be used to transmit an arbitrary number of messages without interruption." |
| 12:28.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you mustn't interrupt one transmission, since there are i2c devices that have reg0:cmd,reg1:data |
| 12:29.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that more complex version is needed for chips that have states/modes |
| 12:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | where 1st transmission changes state, and subsequent transmissions depend on that state being set |
| 12:31.08 | Pali | Ok, now I found in kernel code that i2c_transfer calling i2c_trylock_adapter and i2c_unlock_adapter |
| 12:31.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g TPS65950 has an unlock sequence you need to issue before you can mess with regulators (os sth like that). You don't want some other process to interfere with your unlocked TPS65950 |
| 12:31.47 | Pali | adapter is kernel struct for specific i2c bus |
| 12:32.30 | Pali | both bq27x and bq24 using i2c_transfer funcion, so this is OK |
| 12:32.48 | Pali | now going to look what using /dev/i2c interface |
| 12:32.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly why is that flag needed? |
| 12:33.27 | kerio | to push through the exclusive access claimed by the module? |
| 12:33.49 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, kernel module can be set it is using some device at specific i2c address on some i2c bus |
| 12:34.36 | Pali | this can prevent two two different kernel drivers to set access to that device |
| 12:34.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: hmm, that doesn't fit into any void in that puzzle |
| 12:35.11 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, kernel using "alias:i2caddr" for modules |
| 12:35.32 | Pali | and udev/whatever can load correct driver when kernel sent info that needs driver for that alias |
| 12:35.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I'm aware that kernel modules lock direct i2c-interface access (e.g. via i2cget tool) to the chip they service |
| 12:36.02 | Pali | no kernel drivers does not lock i2c bus |
| 12:36.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* what is that flag about, then? |
| 12:37.04 | Pali | to block i2c communication from userspace to some i2c device which has kernel driver loaded (myabe via alias) |
| 12:37.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | why can't I i2cget values from lp5523 then? |
| 12:37.18 | Pali | but rather ask kernel devs about it |
| 12:37.40 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, because there is kernel driver for lp5323 loaded |
| 12:37.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | YES!!! |
| 12:38.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | so why do you say >>no kernel drivers does not lock i2c bus<< |
| 12:38.13 | Pali | but you can write your own kernel module which will call i2c_transfer function |
| 12:38.28 | Pali | and you can then sent commands to lp52 device |
| 12:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 12:38.43 | Pali | also when lp5323 kernel driver is loaded |
| 12:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 12:39.20 | Pali | kernel (!not drivers) locking i2c access from userpace |
| 12:40.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | is this an answer to my question >>honestly why is that flag needed? (to get used in that context of lis302 driver)<<? |
| 12:40.51 | Pali | now I really do not know why is that flag needed, there is no info in kernel doc and no info in source code... |
| 12:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: are you trolling me? I don't give a F* who's locking the i2c bus, if that's kernel or a driver using a kernel function |
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| 12:47.10 | Pali | ok, found it, i2c-dev driver using i2c_transfer function too |
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| 12:48.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | look, there's a standard locking mechanism in place on i2c stuff. there's a flag overriding that mechanism. If somebody wants to use that flag, he has to deliver a damn good rationale why A) he needs it first instance (there usually are better ways to accomplish same task), and B) why it's considered safe to use it (means an in depth evaluation on the impacts and risks of using the flag, and why they don't apply or are tolerable for |
| 12:48.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | this particular usecase - a task that needs pretty good knowledge of how stuff works, and is mandatory exactly because of that) |
| 12:48.53 | Pali | so I2C_SLAVE_FORCE allow you to send (without interrupt) i2c messages to some i2c device, also when kernel driver "using" that i2c device |
| 12:49.31 | Pali | both bq drivers and i2c-dev using i2c_transfer which deliver messages without interrupt |
| 12:49.47 | Pali | so I think it is safe to use I2C_SLAVE_FORCE flag for bq devicesä |
| 12:51.10 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, ok now? |
| 12:51.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I still don't see why a driver needs that flag |
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| 12:51.55 | Pali | kernel driver does not have any FORCE flag |
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| 12:52.11 | Pali | there are no flags for kernel drivers |
| 12:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless there are two drivers concurrently servicing same chip, which would feel kinda *totally broken by design* |
| 12:52.42 | Pali | if you will write kernel driver using aliases then it will not be possible |
| 12:53.32 | Pali | only one kernel driver can register to struct device with specified alias |
| 12:53.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
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| 12:54.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | is this an answer to >>why is that flag needed here?<< |
| 12:54.38 | Pali | yes, still you do not see it? i2c-dev driver is not alias driver |
| 12:55.00 | Pali | it does not "connect" to some device struct exported by some board code |
| 12:55.48 | Pali | i2c-dev driver calling i2c_transfer function and is not autoloaded and autoattached to i2c device |
| 12:56.18 | Pali | so for this reason i2c-dev driver looking if some kernel driver has registred that i2c address |
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| 12:57.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, that's not an explanation |
| 12:57.13 | Pali | but because bq drivers using i2c_transfer, it is safe to "force" i2c-dev to access bq i2c device when bq kernel drivers are loaded |
| 12:57.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | i2c-dev isn't supposed to be available for devices that have a dedicated kernel driver |
| 12:58.22 | Pali | yes, but if if device kernel driver using atomic transfer function, then it is safe |
| 12:58.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe |
| 12:59.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's not a sufficient rationale to override a standard policy in linux kernel/drivers |
| 12:59.39 | Pali | yes, but if you know what drivers doing, it is ok |
| 12:59.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's not |
| 12:59.56 | Pali | why? |
| 12:59.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | i2c-dev isn't supposed to be available for devices that have a dedicated kernel driver |
| 13:00.19 | Pali | yes |
| 13:01.07 | Pali | but for our situation with bq27x00_battery and i2c-dev it should be safe because of atomic transfers |
| 13:01.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | with same rationale you could use this overriding policy on 99% of device drivers |
| 13:01.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | yet it isn't |
| 13:02.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | because it's not supposed to get used this way |
| 13:02.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | the standard policy is: |
| 13:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | i2c-dev isn't supposed to be available for devices that have a dedicated kernel driver |
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| 13:02.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | no matter if it's considered safe |
| 13:02.44 | Pali | first is policy and second is what driver *really* doing |
| 13:02.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need a better rationale why you *need* to override that standard policy |
| 13:03.29 | Pali | I'm not overriding default policy, I found that it is safe to use i2cget when bq27x00_battery is loaded |
| 13:03.56 | Pali | so if you want to access i2c registers in bq27200 device, you can use i2c-get without problems on n900 |
| 13:04.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 13:04.35 | Pali | (of cource if you do not change kernel driver and i2c driver and that atomic functions...) |
| 13:06.28 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, so is i2c access to bq27k values on maemo kernel via i2c-get ok now (when bq27x kernel driver loaded)? |
| 13:06.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's not since it's not supposed to be possible |
| 13:07.14 | Pali | what is not possible? |
| 13:07.42 | Pali | you can look into kernel source that doing this is safe for bq27x device |
| 13:07.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | bq27x kernel driver shall expose "raw" sysnodes to access registers read/write |
| 13:08.18 | Pali | yes, it could export them via debugfs regmap api |
| 13:08.26 | Pali | (this is standard way) |
| 13:08.34 | Pali | but nobody until now written patch for that |
| 13:08.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I don't give a fsck what's considered safe. I told you it's *supposed* to be *not allowed/possible/supported* |
| 13:09.20 | Pali | and I told you that it is safe to use I2C_SLAVE_FORCE for bq27x device |
| 13:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | per definition you can't access a chip via /dev/i2c when that chip has a dedicated kernel driver |
| 13:10.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: I don't give a fsck what's considered safe. <Pali> and I told you that it is safe |
| 13:10.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
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| 13:10.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's also save to rename /opt to /foobar |
| 13:11.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't mean we should do it |
| 13:11.36 | Pali | ah, what has /opt with i2C?? |
| 13:11.40 | freemangordon | hmm, wait, what is the problem to export regs via sysfs, so the driver could verify if written values are sane? |
| 13:12.00 | freemangordon | we are just missing the code or what? |
| 13:12.28 | Pali | freemangordon, 1) somebody must write that code and 2) correct way is to use debugfs regmap api |
| 13:12.49 | freemangordon | ok, so we are missing the code. |
| 13:13.12 | Pali | 3) I do not want another big patch to kernel-power which cannot be upstreamed |
| 13:13.15 | kerio | debugfs? |
| 13:13.57 | Pali | kerio, regmap api is for accessing registers (some layer) and it is also for i2c registers |
| 13:14.01 | freemangordon | Pali: sorry, didn't read the backscroll, is that in the context of BME replacement? |
| 13:14.14 | Pali | and regmap api has debugs interface for raw access |
| 13:14.58 | Pali | freemangordon, it is safe to tell i2cget to access i2c registers of (and only of) bq27200 i2c device also when bq27x00_battery driver is loaded |
| 13:15.46 | Pali | i2c transfers from userpace and bq27x kernel driver are atomic |
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| 13:24.03 | freemangordon | Pali: but why should this be allowed? juct because kernel power interface does not support some specific bq functionality? |
| 13:24.19 | freemangordon | so we can't export the via sysfs? |
| 13:24.23 | freemangordon | *them |
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| 13:25.01 | freemangordon | who and why is supposed to touch bq using i2c-dev? if there is a kernel driver |
| 13:25.21 | Pali | freemangordon, because some users have scripts which depends on i2cget and does not want to use sysfs "registers" file exported by bq27x00_battery kernel driver |
| 13:26.40 | freemangordon | Pali: and why do they refuse to use the standart kernel interface? |
| 13:26.55 | Pali | it is not standard kernel interface |
| 13:27.25 | Pali | "registers" sysfs entry was added by me for testing bme replacement and testing kernel driver |
| 13:28.00 | freemangordon | oh, I see. so, upstream refuses to export registers through sysfs, we don't have code fr debugfs. And you are trying to find a way for this scripts co continue work with upstream kernel. correct? |
| 13:28.16 | freemangordon | s/co/to |
| 13:28.38 | freemangordon | Pali: ^^^ |
| 13:28.56 | Pali | I find out that using i2c-get for bq27x is safe |
| 13:30.05 | freemangordon | Pali: did you check what is atomic - the communication, or the commands? |
| 13:30.37 | Pali | function i2c_transfer cannot be interrupted |
| 13:30.53 | freemangordon | as if former, I'd not assume that safe |
| 13:30.54 | Pali | this function is used by bq27x driver and also by i2c-dev |
| 13:31.11 | freemangordon | Pali: so, we have atomic communication |
| 13:31.21 | freemangordon | agree? |
| 13:31.25 | Pali | plus bq27x driver only reading values |
| 13:31.47 | Pali | freemangordon, in this situation with bq27x and i2c-dev drivers - yes |
| 13:31.48 | freemangordon | Pali: sometimes reading a register affects is value |
| 13:32.02 | freemangordon | s/is/its/ |
| 13:32.54 | Pali | no for registers which kernel bq27x driver reading |
| 13:33.46 | freemangordon | Pali: sure, but what about the stuf i2cget reads? |
| 13:33.58 | freemangordon | can you assure it will never read such register? |
| 13:34.24 | freemangordon | having in mind it is the script that issues ther real commands |
| 13:34.29 | freemangordon | *the |
| 13:34.44 | Pali | freemangordon, bq27200 has no register which change something after somebody read its value |
| 13:35.20 | freemangordon | Pali: but your "hack" to i2c will allow reads for the whole i2c bus, not only for bq |
| 13:35.23 | Pali | also bq27 kernel driver only export some properties, it does not configure anything |
| 13:35.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly dounbt upstream refusues to export registers via sysfs |
| 13:35.38 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: they do |
| 13:35.44 | freemangordon | iirc |
| 13:35.57 | Pali | freemangordon, which my hack? |
| 13:36.09 | Pali | i2cget has -f param forever |
| 13:36.26 | freemangordon | aah, ok |
| 13:36.33 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, you did not read that email?? |
| 13:36.35 | freemangordon | I though a modification is needed |
| 13:36.43 | Pali | no, no, no modification |
| 13:36.52 | freemangordon | ok, got it :) |
| 13:37.09 | Pali | I2C_SLAVE_FORCE flag is supported by all kernels |
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| 13:37.45 | freemangordon | Pali: how hard it will be to export those regs through debugfs? |
| 13:38.01 | freemangordon | afaik it shouldn't be much |
| 13:38.06 | Pali | freemangordon: rewrite bq27x driver to use regmap api |
| 13:38.15 | freemangordon | ooh |
| 13:38.24 | Pali | and regmap api automatically export them via sysfs |
| 13:39.09 | Pali | and really I do not need it |
| 13:39.20 | Pali | so I have no reasons to do it |
| 13:39.58 | freemangordon | Pali: which properties are missing from power interface? |
| 13:40.27 | Pali | I do not know, but there are mores... |
| 13:40.42 | Pali | but I think nothing which is needed for bme hal api |
| 13:40.47 | Pali | (and for battery applet) |
| 13:41.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly this whole nonsense is about using power_supply interface for bq27200 |
| 13:41.15 | Pali | ok, I think that we can finish this discussion about it |
| 13:41.34 | freemangordon | Pali: wait |
| 13:41.38 | Pali | if somebody needs debugfs, write patch |
| 13:41.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then tweaking 95% of it to match incompatibilities in API with what that chip really does |
| 13:42.13 | freemangordon | Pali: what about /dev? |
| 13:42.24 | Pali | what with /dev/? |
| 13:42.45 | freemangordon | can;t we create some device there with some set of ioctls? |
| 13:42.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a completely insane approach |
| 13:43.02 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: which one? |
| 13:43.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | (power_supply API for bq27200) |
| 13:43.07 | Pali | freemangordon, this was rejected too |
| 13:43.23 | Pali | really, read that email!! |
| 13:43.31 | Pali | https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/1/19/162 |
| 13:43.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | really, I did!!! |
| 13:44.04 | Pali | plus recursive pointer read to that thread |
| 13:45.51 | freemangordon | damn, something is going wrong with my connection, will read when I am back home. |
| 13:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course the maintainer of power_supply API refuses to add cruft to his API to make a chip match that API despite it's really not a regulator at all |
| 13:48.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | the rpoposition that bq27200 had to go under power_supply API is the fundamental error here |
| 13:49.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | bq27200 is much more of a sensor than a power_supply |
| 13:51.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | all the basic rationale and considerations that apply to a power-supply don't really apply for bq27200 |
| 13:52.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't adjust it, you can't switch it on/off, you don't have overcurrent or power-good signaling, you have no concerns about hardware damage when doing misconfiguration of bq27200. Nothing of all those evry fundamental concerns for a powersupply API apply to bq27200 |
| 13:54.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | but then you introduce stuff that bq27200 provides that really don't match any usual power_supply, as well. And the reaction of power_supply API maintainers to that is absolutely correct, they reject it since it doesn't fit into the concept and design of that API |
| 13:55.12 | jaska | if it quacks like a duck it must be a dog. |
| 13:56.17 | *** join/#maemo calvaris (~calvaris@12.98.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com) |
| 13:56.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, and for sure a fan or a temperature sensor also is a power_supply since it's located near the PSU |
| 13:57.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if interface to PSU would also use power_supply API |
| 13:58.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/PSU/UPS/ |
| 13:58.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 13:58.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if interface to UPS would also use power_supply API |
| 13:59.21 | freemangordon | Pali: and waht about using POWER_SUPPLY_PROP_STATUS to return what is missing in the interface to userspace? |
| 14:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously a UPS has a battery, it has some sensors and values to report, it even has states you can switch it to, and it has input power and output power (both 220V mains, usually). Still I bet it's never been implemented as a power_supply API |
| 14:01.09 | Pali | freemangordon, I'm not going to patch bq drivers... |
| 14:01.21 | freemangordon | Pali: ok |
| 14:01.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: fork it then |
| 14:01.41 | Pali | if somebody want to patch it, upstream is correct place |
| 14:01.57 | Pali | bq drivers working |
| 14:02.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 14:02.14 | Pali | you can also use i2cget when are loaded |
| 14:02.51 | Pali | you can also use sysfs register entry which is in kernel-power |
| 14:03.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't give a shit about i2cget when drivers are cencoring values just because my device dared to complete 32 battery cycles without learning cycle |
| 14:06.12 | Pali | why you are still writing IRC lines instead lines in patch?? |
| 14:06.36 | kerio | because any patch would be worse than useless, because you'd just go "wah wah wah upstream wah wah wah" |
| 14:06.39 | Pali | why did you not sent *any* bq patch to mailinglist for discussion? |
| 14:07.47 | Pali | instead writing hypotetical solutions, show some real |
| 14:07.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | because I refuse to argue on that basis with kernel devels, it's always the same BS argument of "send patches instead of arguing with me" |
| 14:08.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | they always use that when they feel they have no better arguments anymore |
| 14:08.26 | freemangordon | Pali: who proposed power_supply interface? |
| 14:08.34 | Pali | no idea |
| 14:08.45 | Pali | there was kernel driver |
| 14:08.48 | freemangordon | ok |
| 14:08.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: s/propoesed/porposed TO USE/ |
| 14:09.00 | Pali | and I added more functions |
| 14:09.08 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure |
| 14:09.29 | freemangordon | Pali: I see |
| 14:10.39 | Pali | I do not like it... writing a lot of useless litany how to write litany used to write litany... |
| 14:10.52 | freemangordon | :D |
| 14:11.04 | Pali | but no real driver/patch/code... |
| 14:11.19 | Pali | which something doing |
| 14:11.45 | freemangordon | Pali: BTW, why is that silence on the secre PPA API? they neither upstream the code nor reject it |
| 14:11.54 | freemangordon | s/secre/secure/ |
| 14:12.05 | freemangordon | weird |
| 14:12.08 | Pali | freemangordon, do not know, maybe maintainers are busy |
| 14:12.26 | freemangordon | hmm, yep, makes sense |
| 14:12.38 | Pali | I sent more patches... and also merge window is closed |
| 14:12.38 | freemangordon | to argue with you over the bq code :P |
| 14:13.08 | freemangordon | however, gtg |
| 14:13.14 | freemangordon | bye, bbl |
| 14:23.43 | *** join/#maemo _PanzerSajt (~panzersaj@91.82.25.122.pool.invitel.hu) |
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| 15:44.35 | *** join/#maemo teotwaki (~slau@Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie) |
| 15:46.25 | discopig | hi |
| 15:47.26 | kerio | holy shit, bitcoins at 82USD |
| 15:49.06 | *** join/#maemo udovdh (~udovdh@pindarots.xs4all.nl) |
| 15:49.19 | *** join/#maemo amospalla (~amospalla@amospalla.es) |
| 15:49.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? |
| 15:50.01 | kerio | Mt.Gox values them at 82 USD/BTC |
| 15:50.07 | kerio | a month ago they were worth 30 |
| 15:50.26 | kerio | apparently, cypriots are buying bitcoins like mad |
| 15:50.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I gonna sell then real estate on the mars |
| 15:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | them* |
| 15:51.14 | kerio | that's a lot less verifiable than bitcoins |
| 15:51.19 | kerio | a lot less anonymous, too |
| 15:51.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | feels like a more solid and trustworthy investment than bitcoins |
| 15:52.20 | thedead1440 | lol |
| 15:52.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, I even don't trust the wirtual money on the chip of my own credit card |
| 15:52.42 | kerio | all money is virtual |
| 15:52.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | virtual* |
| 15:52.46 | teotwaki | Q: What is the Bible? A: It's the book where when the ape comes down from the tree, he becomes a man. |
| 15:53.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | while without bible he stays an ape? |
| 15:53.58 | *** join/#maemo Aoyagi (~opera@222.18.broadband15.iol.cz) |
| 15:54.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: well, a krueger rand is *very* real |
| 15:55.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: a 2EUR coin is hardly less real |
| 15:55.47 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: and worth exactly as much as the people you're trying to buy a goat from value gold |
| 15:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | even the EUR I have on my bank account feels kinda real, at least compared to bitcoins |
| 15:56.12 | bef0rd | you can easily change bitcoins for euros/usd |
| 15:56.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | not where I live |
| 15:56.34 | Macer | ~battery |
| 15:56.34 | infobot | hmm... battery is made by Danionics http://www.danionics.com/products/icphh02.asp, or at http://www.handhelds.org/handhelds-faq/questions.html#AEN744 |
| 15:56.38 | Macer | hm |
| 15:56.41 | kerio | and to them, it's only worth as much as the guy selling them furniture values it |
| 15:56.49 | Macer | what was the procedure to bring a dead battery back to life? |
| 15:56.54 | Macer | i can't seem to start my n900 up |
| 15:56.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~flatbatrecover |
| 15:56.58 | infobot | Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover |
| 15:57.10 | SpeedEvil | or b) |
| 15:57.16 | SpeedEvil | buy new one from eBay |
| 15:57.21 | Macer | heh thanks |
| 15:57.27 | kerio | or c) use an external charger |
| 15:58.01 | Macer | yah. i had a made in china one that burned out |
| 15:58.02 | Macer | go figure |
| 15:58.14 | Macer | and i also had 2 other batteries which for the life of me i have no idea where htey went |
| 15:58.20 | Macer | fml |
| 15:58.22 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: a 2€ coin is just a certificate of possession of a certain fraction (that goes down over time!) of gold stored somewhere by the ECB |
| 15:58.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 15:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | since ~30 years no more |
| 15:58.52 | kerio | then it's even less real |
| 15:59.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's still waaaay more real that a bitcoin |
| 15:59.28 | Macer | hm |
| 15:59.29 | Macer | nope |
| 15:59.36 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer05: at least for a few more weeks |
| 15:59.37 | Macer | my amber light flashes on for a second |
| 15:59.40 | Macer | then turns off |
| 15:59.41 | Macer | :-/ |
| 15:59.54 | kerio | Macer: what happens if you try to boot? |
| 16:00.06 | Macer | nothing |
| 16:00.09 | Macer | won't even try |
| 16:00.16 | Macer | maybe my charger is too weak |
| 16:00.24 | Macer | let me go find my real nokia charger and try again |
| 16:00.40 | SpeedEvil | flashes on for a sevcnd may indicate high charge state, so it's tried to boot |
| 16:00.45 | kerio | "Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device." |
| 16:00.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, some idiot spamming me with pdf-got-uploaded-for-you SPAM |
| 16:01.09 | SpeedEvil | this can be a false alarm, if the battery has very high internal impedence |
| 16:01.17 | Macer | kerio: i thought the nokia part was optional lol |
| 16:01.22 | Macer | let me go get it :-/ |
| 16:01.27 | kerio | ~literal flatbatrecover |
| 16:01.27 | infobot | "flatbatrecover" is "<reply> Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover" |
| 16:01.31 | SpeedEvil | as voltage can rise to the 'boot now' threshold |
| 16:02.38 | kerio | infobot: no, flatbatrecover is <reply>Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover |
| 16:02.38 | infobot | okay, kerio |
| 16:02.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | FUI! |
| 16:03.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~ignore kerio |
| 16:03.15 | infobot | error: chan #maemo is invalid. |
| 16:03.37 | kerio | wut |
| 16:03.40 | kerio | (to both) |
| 16:08.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | will you go emphasize "1 minute" next time somebody thinks 5 s is enough? Emphasize "amber" when somebody comes and thinks we meant red flashing when writing "steady amber"? |
| 16:08.41 | Macer | nice |
| 16:08.43 | Macer | found a 2nd one heh |
| 16:09.23 | Macer | ok. this one is charging :) nice |
| 16:09.30 | Macer | waits |
| 16:09.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually it takes some 30s, not 30min |
| 16:09.51 | Macer | nice. going to try out this sim in the n900 and see if it works |
| 16:09.59 | Macer | it's already pulsating |
| 16:10.15 | Macer | so it's good. just need it to charge up a bit. going to take a shower. then try this sim in the n900 and see what the state of the modem is |
| 16:10.29 | Macer | see if maybe bending the pins up a bit might help it out |
| 16:10.44 | kerio | using a brand new sim might also help |
| 16:10.49 | Macer | it is |
| 16:10.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | first wait to verify it's actually booting to act_dead and continues charging |
| 16:11.06 | Macer | DocScrutinizer05: it already did the 3 dot thing |
| 16:11.11 | Macer | then went into charging mode |
| 16:11.18 | Macer | i dug up a 2nd battery |
| 16:11.43 | Macer | it's pulsating now. i can probably boot it. the battery probably still has a decent charge :) |
| 16:12.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, if it stays like pulsing yellow for >2 min, you're probably safe to assume it's charging normally |
| 16:12.02 | SpeedEvil | leave it a few MIBs |
| 16:12.06 | SpeedEvil | mins |
| 16:12.15 | SpeedEvil | as older batteries... |
| 16:12.20 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 16:12.21 | Macer | oh. maybe not lol. guess it was dead heh. tried booting it but it just shut off and started to charge |
| 16:12.47 | SpeedEvil | the cell modem pinging the tower uses a lot of power |
| 16:12.58 | SpeedEvil | so it can shut off when that happens |
| 16:12.59 | Macer | i don't have the sim in |
| 16:14.47 | Macer | ok. i'll let it charge while "off" and go take a shower heh |
| 16:14.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | better that |
| 16:14.59 | Macer | that should give it enough time to at the least boot |
| 16:15.07 | *** join/#maemo calvaris (~calvaris@12.98.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com) |
| 16:15.26 | Macer | the 2nd batter is at least doing something tho. 1st battery just flashed amber and nothing |
| 16:15.27 | *** join/#maemo stardiviner (~stardivin@122.236.253.70) |
| 16:15.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | if your rootfs is borked, it might not boot to runlevel even with battery at 100% |
| 16:15.59 | Macer | does rootfs get messed up for having a dead battery in it? |
| 16:16.10 | *** part/#maemo stardiviner (~stardivin@122.236.253.70) |
| 16:16.13 | *** join/#maemo xmlich02_ (~imlich@ip-62-245-106-210.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 16:16.29 | kerio | no |
| 16:16.43 | Macer | well.. let me give it a try after my shower. i just got home. |
| 16:16.45 | kerio | well, if it shutdown in mid-write... |
| 16:17.02 | Macer | i figured i'll try it out again and see if the sim will work since i have a new tmob prepaid sim in my e7 |
| 16:17.25 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 16:17.26 | Macer | i seriously miss telepathy |
| 16:17.45 | Macer | although i'm concerned about bt dun which is something i would like to continue to use which works great on the e7 |
| 16:18.03 | kerio | it works |
| 16:18.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | *telepathy isn't exactly a thing i'd miss |
| 16:18.15 | kerio | hold on, in which direction? |
| 16:20.05 | kerio | i don't think that the n900 can *use* bluetooth dun |
| 16:20.10 | kerio | not easily, at least |
| 16:20.52 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 16:28.54 | *** join/#maemo dos11 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 16:34.55 | teotwaki | bitcoins are a scam |
| 16:35.26 | teotwaki | they're a stupid pyramid scheme, and anyone trying to convince you otherwise is a fraud, or an idiot. |
| 16:36.55 | Aoyagi | Yes, teotwaki says so, everyone listen to his truth. |
| 16:37.41 | teotwaki | I never said it was the truth. |
| 16:37.47 | teotwaki | It's just my opinion. |
| 16:38.04 | teotwaki | You're free to hold another one. Just don't expect me to treat you like you have a brain if you do so. |
| 16:38.31 | Aoyagi | Likewise. |
| 16:41.35 | Macer | alrighty |
| 16:41.38 | Macer | lets see if this modem works lol |
| 16:41.46 | Macer | probably not but who knows |
| 16:42.18 | Macer | stares at the dots awaiting something good |
| 16:43.00 | Macer | all telephony stuff is disabled :-/ |
| 16:43.17 | Macer | and a sim pic with a slash |
| 16:43.18 | Macer | sigh |
| 16:43.36 | Aoyagi | Heh, that doesn't sound all that good. |
| 16:44.01 | kerio | is the sim in? |
| 16:44.05 | Macer | yes |
| 16:44.10 | Macer | i just put it in right now |
| 16:45.19 | teotwaki | damn, not getting much back from the insurance for the wrecked motorbike |
| 16:46.10 | *** join/#maemo sirdancealo2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) |
| 16:48.09 | Macer | hm. maybe i should flash it |
| 16:48.21 | Macer | who knows maybe something somewhere was broken that has something to do with the modem? |
| 16:48.53 | Macer | ~flashing |
| 16:48.53 | infobot | [maemo-flashing] http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware |
| 16:50.33 | *** join/#maemo valeriusM (~user@95.153.187.152) |
| 16:50.43 | Macer | DocScrutinizer05: is maemo.org able to host the fw? |
| 16:51.04 | Macer | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php |
| 16:51.09 | Macer | An error occurred while processing your request. |
| 16:51.11 | Macer | Reference #97.255efea5.1364403052.11c93c9 |
| 16:51.15 | Macer | :-/ |
| 16:52.39 | *** join/#maemo stef_204 (~kvirc@unaffiliated/stef-204/x-384198) |
| 16:52.58 | thedead1440 | ~skeiron |
| 16:52.59 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, skeiron is the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 |
| 16:53.14 | thedead1440 | Macer: ^^^ |
| 16:55.39 | Macer | hm |
| 16:55.42 | Macer | should i just get vanilla? |
| 16:55.52 | Macer | or get the US ver? |
| 16:58.01 | sixwheeled|away | Macer: ...or the UK version :P, I always use my local variant |
| 16:58.12 | Macer | hm |
| 16:58.22 | Macer | flasher3.5 isn't on that site |
| 16:58.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is |
| 16:59.13 | kerio | Macer: http://maemo.jacekowski.org/ binaries/firmware/ |
| 16:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 16:59.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr131 |
| 16:59.23 | infobot | methinks combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 16:59.28 | Macer | ah ok |
| 16:59.32 | kerio | oh right, i always forget about that |
| 16:59.38 | kerio | ~pr14 |
| 16:59.51 | Aoyagi | And there was silence. |
| 17:00.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the goddamn link "flashing tools are <here>" on top of mameo5 page on skeiron |
| 17:00.09 | Macer | http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz |
| 17:00.10 | kerio | wasn't there a funny factoid for that? |
| 17:00.12 | Macer | there it is |
| 17:00.28 | Macer | DocScrutinizer05: yeh i just noticed that |
| 17:00.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: use a dot |
| 17:01.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1.4 |
| 17:01.12 | sixwheeled|away | ~pr1.4 ? |
| 17:01.12 | infobot | PR1.4 has always been a ban'able subject |
| 17:01.42 | Macer | ./flasher-3.5: error while loading shared libraries: libusb-0.1.so.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| 17:01.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's even 1.5 iirc |
| 17:01.46 | Macer | seriously? |
| 17:02.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | 64bit? |
| 17:02.38 | kerio | Macer: why didn't you install the .deb? |
| 17:03.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno, seen same error recently, thought it been due to 64bit OS |
| 17:03.38 | Macer | kerio: i am now |
| 17:03.39 | Macer | heh |
| 17:03.46 | Macer | DocScrutinizer05: it is |
| 17:04.04 | kerio | it's still only for i386, so dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get install libusb:i386 |
| 17:04.06 | kerio | or something |
| 17:04.23 | Macer | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:04.44 | Macer | yeah :-/ |
| 17:04.49 | *** join/#maemo VDVsx (~VDVsx@a88-114-88-95.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 17:04.50 | kerio | so install it |
| 17:05.43 | kerio | dpkg does dependency checking, not dependency resolution |
| 17:05.54 | *** join/#maemo SmilyOrg (Smily@89.143.168.15) |
| 17:07.43 | Macer | i did |
| 17:07.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib64/libusb-0.1.so.4 |
| 17:07.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib64/libusb-0.1.so.4.4.4 |
| 17:08.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib64/libusb-1.0.so.0 |
| 17:08.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib64/libusb-1.0.so.0.1.0 |
| 17:09.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib/libusb-1.0.so.0 |
| 17:09.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/lib/libusb-1.0.so.0.1.0 |
| 17:09.50 | Macer | yeah it works now |
| 17:09.58 | Macer | just charging up the n900 a bit more |
| 17:09.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | what did you do? |
| 17:10.21 | Macer | sudo apt-get -f install |
| 17:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 17:10.41 | Macer | dpkg was stuck on flasher |
| 17:10.44 | kerio | that's what you're supposed to do |
| 17:10.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that installed what? |
| 17:10.51 | Macer | so it just installed the i386 libusb |
| 17:10.58 | kerio | everything that had to be installed to fix the dependency problem :) |
| 17:11.01 | Macer | yeah |
| 17:11.10 | kerio | -f is "fix", not "force" |
| 17:11.19 | Macer | heh |
| 17:11.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol, how helpful... for RPM systems |
| 17:11.28 | kerio | is there a rpm for flasher? |
| 17:11.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 17:11.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | >:-( |
| 17:11.47 | Macer | lol |
| 17:11.54 | Macer | well.. there is always option b |
| 17:11.57 | thedead1440 | hehe |
| 17:11.58 | Macer | build static |
| 17:12.00 | Macer | :) |
| 17:12.01 | kerio | deb2rpm |
| 17:12.06 | Macer | but that poses other problems i'm sure |
| 17:12.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: static binding would help a lot, if only we could bind flasher |
| 17:14.12 | Macer | well. i'm about to wipe/install in a few |
| 17:14.51 | Macer | i'm just curious if it can do it on half a battery but given the problem i just had with the batteries... i should wait until it turns green |
| 17:15.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, definitely |
| 17:15.10 | Macer | although since i don't care what's on the device i don't really mind it much. not like i can really brick it |
| 17:15.23 | Macer | nokia made sure to at least make it nearly unbrickable |
| 17:15.27 | kerio | you can brick it |
| 17:15.37 | kerio | it's a bricking that can be solved with an external charger, but you can brick it |
| 17:15.48 | Macer | wow really? |
| 17:15.56 | kerio | flatbatrecover isn't enough to flash |
| 17:17.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, with some luck you might be able to charge flat battery with rescueOS, to a level where flashing works |
| 17:17.43 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: mmh, can you ramload it with a low battery? |
| 17:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | but honestly flashing with semi-depleted battery is *strongly* deprecated |
| 17:17.51 | kerio | or will nolo refuse to do that, too? |
| 17:18.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: unclear |
| 17:18.30 | kerio | and will a ramloaded nolo load rescueOS? |
| 17:18.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, for sure not |
| 17:18.58 | kerio | then it's still possible to brick it |
| 17:19.03 | kerio | you have to fight for it, though |
| 17:19.30 | Macer | Finishing flashing... done |
| 17:19.30 | Macer | CMT flashing failed |
| 17:19.32 | Macer | hm |
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| 17:19.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't you say your CMT been broken? |
| 17:19.53 | kerio | Macer: sign points to bork |
| 17:20.19 | Macer | :-/ seems so i suppose |
| 17:20.38 | Macer | i was hoping reflashing might fix it |
| 17:20.39 | Macer | guess not |
| 17:20.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | try other locale version. Sometimes US version already been known to fail flashing CMT |
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| 17:21.11 | Macer | oh wow |
| 17:21.13 | Macer | that was new |
| 17:21.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | for *very* obscure reasons |
| 17:21.27 | Macer | heh |
| 17:21.33 | Macer | maybe vanilla? |
| 17:21.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | global? |
| 17:21.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | vanilla is eMMC |
| 17:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, iirc all those who reported CMT flashing failure due to US version had success with global version |
| 17:23.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | those who had no success even with global didn't succeed with any other version anyway |
| 17:23.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 17:24.35 | Macer | alrighty |
| 17:24.50 | Macer | i'll try again in a moment |
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| 17:33.22 | Macer | CMT flashing failed |
| 17:33.24 | Macer | :-/ |
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| 17:36.43 | Macer | ah well |
| 17:36.50 | Macer | guess i can write off the n900 as malfunctional |
| 17:36.55 | Macer | too bad |
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| 17:37.47 | Macer | suppose i can wipe it and ebay it |
| 17:37.53 | Macer | i'm sure someone might want some of the parts |
| 17:39.13 | kerio | Macer: try the spring trick! |
| 17:39.40 | deepy | Macer: you can buy mine |
| 17:39.49 | kerio | deepy: i am disappoint |
| 17:40.29 | deepy | kerio: shhh, I'm close to getting one with a working switch |
| 17:40.35 | kerio | yay |
| 17:41.39 | sixwheeledbeast | Macer: so you can flash rootfs but not emmc? |
| 17:41.52 | kerio | sixwheeledbeast: nah, you can flash everything, anyway |
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| 17:42.19 | kerio | use --flash-only if flasher3.5 really doesn't want to go ahead |
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| 17:43.34 | sixwheeledbeast | I mean, what is wrong in this case to say it's faulty |
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| 17:47.08 | Macer | lol |
| 17:47.25 | Macer | sixwheeledbeast: no i can' flash rootfs but not cmt ;) |
| 17:47.32 | Macer | i guess i have a broken modem n900 |
| 17:47.44 | Macer | wow it's amazing.. usb ports falling off, modems randomly breaking :) |
| 17:47.52 | Macer | thing seems kind of shoddy heh |
| 17:48.14 | Macer | even the paper under the battery trick doesn't wrok |
| 17:48.16 | Macer | ah well i give up |
| 17:48.28 | sixwheeledbeast | oh, modem issue. |
| 17:48.34 | sixwheeledbeast | spring time |
| 17:49.15 | Macer | sixwheeledbeast: yeah seems so |
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| 17:49.49 | Macer | it would actually just be less of a headache just to get one off ebay |
| 17:49.55 | Macer | and throw this one in a blender |
| 17:50.05 | kerio | and *send this to me |
| 17:51.01 | Macer | ah well.. back to the e7 heh |
| 17:51.51 | Macer | too bad about the n900 i seriously miss the qwerty+telepathy |
| 17:51.54 | sixwheeledbeast | ~springtime |
| 17:52.03 | Macer | the txting app is the only reason i really want to go back to one |
| 17:52.10 | sixwheeledbeast | infobot: springtime is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=77248 |
| 17:52.10 | infobot | sixwheeledbeast: okay |
| 17:52.15 | Macer | but buying a 3rd one after usb + modem failure with my 2 heh |
| 17:52.38 | Macer | sixwheeledbeast: yeah i saw that |
| 17:53.07 | Macer | maybe the person who ebays mine can fix it :-P |
| 17:53.14 | Macer | at the very least they will have a spare screen and battery |
| 17:53.23 | Macer | and whatever else they may be able to rip out of it that functions |
| 17:53.30 | Macer | cam module etc |
| 17:55.11 | Macer | like i said. i'd be a bit skeptical about buying a 3rd one ;) |
| 17:55.33 | Macer | maybe i can find a broken screen one and swap mboards |
| 17:55.35 | Macer | heh |
| 18:00.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd actually love to learn if reflow helps for cmt failure |
| 18:00.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | hoping to get my reflow station next week |
| 18:01.05 | kerio | :D |
| 18:01.23 | kerio | and the n900 with 1ghz and 2gb of ram comes right afterwards, right? |
| 18:01.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, "reflow station" - actually it's a simple hotair |
| 18:01.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | might abuse it for BBQ as well ;-D |
| 18:05.10 | Macer | http://www.ebay.com/itm/N950-/171011434353?pt=Cell_Phones&hash=item27d1136771 |
| 18:05.21 | Macer | that thing looks totally beat up :) |
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| 18:07.14 | *** join/#maemo valeriusM (~user@85.26.180.148) |
| 18:07.58 | Macer | and for just 1,200... IT CAN BE YOURS! |
| 18:12.10 | cehteh | The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear :D |
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| 18:12.46 | Macer | crack on screen/lcd |
| 18:12.46 | Macer | heh |
| 18:12.55 | Macer | http://www.cellphone-preview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Spark-Tablet.jpg |
| 18:13.01 | Macer | spark-tablet? |
| 18:13.04 | Macer | are those things real? |
| 18:13.52 | kerio | what's a spark tablet? |
| 18:14.21 | Macer | http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/napierala/2013-01-11_-_api_dla_mobilnych_linuksow/oss.jpg |
| 18:14.30 | Macer | i guess it's supposed to be an ubuntu tablet |
| 18:14.41 | kerio | looks awful |
| 18:14.55 | Macer | yeah the tablet itself does |
| 18:15.03 | Macer | but i'm more interested in plasma active |
| 18:17.07 | Macer | http://www.slashgear.com/spark-plasma-active-7-inch-tablet-revealed-set-to-take-on-android-30211264/ |
| 18:17.15 | Macer | ah.... there you go.... they have a plasma video :) |
| 18:18.31 | Macer | lol |
| 18:18.45 | Macer | and i think my biggest problem is either that person has extremely small hands |
| 18:18.48 | Macer | or that is NOT a tablet |
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