| 00:02.01 | merlin1991 | hm does crontab alllow for something like every 15 mins starting with minute 3 of the hour? |
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| 00:08.00 | jrayhawk | merlin1991: man 5 crontab |
| 00:08.15 | jrayhawk | each field can take a comma separated list |
| 00:08.38 | jrayhawk | so, for instance, 3,18,33,48 |
| 00:08.50 | merlin1991 | yeah I was hoping some awesome foo of the /x syntax would allow for that without typing out the list |
| 00:23.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: 3-59/15 |
| 00:24.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously only works for periods that are a natural fraction of the whole unit |
| 00:25.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, hope you know what i mean |
| 00:26.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | 3-59/18 wouldn't cause next hour's events start at any tme different from "3" |
| 00:27.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW a 10-59/31 will not cause event after next to start at 0:02 |
| 00:28.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh! |
| 00:28.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~x-yawn |
| 00:29.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn |
| 00:29.06 | infobot | from memory, xyawn is big coffee |
| 00:29.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | without milk :-S |
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| 00:41.24 | trumee | DocScrutinizer05: i tried mounting N900 on the android phone. Without using 'stop bme', android phone did not see the N900 UMS. However, after doing 'stop bme', android sees N900, but returns "Damaged USB storage" :( |
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| 01:07.39 | ShadowJK | maybe it hates partitionless |
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| 01:17.26 | trumee | ShadowJK: you mean i need to partition it further? |
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| 01:19.02 | ShadowJK | That'd probably mess it up on N900 side ;) |
| 01:19.44 | ShadowJK | But you could confirm my theory by taking a normal usb key and creating filesystem without partition tables |
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| 02:02.43 | FIQ | ~thumb |
| 02:02.44 | infobot | Configurable image directory thumbnail viewer. URL: http://www.datrix.co.za/thumb/ |
| 02:02.55 | FIQ | ~cssu-thumb |
| 02:02.55 | infobot | cssu-thumb is probably <DocScrutinizer05> [thumb2 microb] indeed seems to render like mad, subjectively, or http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1220597 |
| 02:03.47 | FIQ | ~botsnack |
| 02:03.47 | infobot | FIQ: aw, gee |
| 02:08.39 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: as this is an upgrade from cssu stable rather than PR1.3, will steps be different? |
| 02:09.03 | FIQ | from stable to thumb, that is |
| 02:17.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: I actually don't know, ask freemangordon or check tmo for the cssu-thumb thread |
| 02:18.25 | FIQ | well due to lack of immediate response I tried it out |
| 02:18.42 | FIQ | worse case is that i'll have to rollback, simple enough |
| 02:18.53 | FIQ | but currently step 6 seems not needed |
| 02:19.04 | FIQ | i pressed link, ham opened and did its' thing |
| 02:19.14 | FIQ | and then i got "update for maemo" notification |
| 02:19.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | well |
| 02:19.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc how cssu-thumb is meant to handle its dependencies |
| 02:20.05 | FIQ | ham seems to have crashed though |
| 02:20.14 | FIQ | not that it's unusual that it's slow |
| 02:20.29 | FIQ | but i've had a black screen @update window for 15min now |
| 02:20.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui it is based on CSSU-T and builds on top of it, relying on whatever CSSU-T did to ensure proper update from stock to CSSU |
| 02:21.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honnestly suggest you read that tmo thread |
| 02:21.20 | FIQ | ah, it's still working apparently |
| 02:21.45 | FIQ | i'll see |
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| 02:23.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1220597#post1220597 <-- READ! |
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| 02:24.33 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: i've already read that |
| 02:25.23 | FIQ | basically it tells me that installation is the same as for usual cssu and that it's based on testing |
| 02:26.15 | FIQ | my question was that, as instructions assume pr1.3(.1), i wondered if it wouldn't work if I ran cssu s4 instead of pr1.3 |
| 02:30.03 | merlin1991 | FIQ: should work just fine |
| 02:30.14 | FIQ | merlin1991: ok |
| 02:30.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I don't know. depends on cssu-enabler and whether it's needed and whether it's executing when it already ran before |
| 02:30.53 | FIQ | well neverthless HAM crashed after showing that there was an "update for maejmo" |
| 02:30.58 | FIQ | -j |
| 02:31.12 | merlin1991 | what did you do untill now? |
| 02:31.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're sure you got a thumb-enabled kernel ? |
| 02:31.34 | FIQ | merlin1991: i waited for it to finish do its' thing |
| 02:31.37 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: yes |
| 02:31.53 | FIQ | 2.6.28.10-power51 |
| 02:32.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but is it actually thumb-enabled? |
| 02:32.26 | merlin1991 | oh ffs apt-get update on my box is stuck somewhere |
| 02:32.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a means to enable the thumb workaround, and I'm not even sure this kernel version you posted already has the thumb fix |
| 02:32.57 | FIQ | I assumed it was as the forum post say power51 should work |
| 02:33.21 | FIQ | If you have kernel-power v51r1 or above, no custom kernel will be installed, as needed errata workaround is included in kernel-power v51r1 (and above) |
| 02:33.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I am no help regarding all this. since I can't recall all the details |
| 02:33.57 | merlin1991 | FIQ: no worries about the kernel, you didn't get any thumb pacakges yet |
| 02:34.04 | FIQ | the forum post say nothing about specifically enabling work-around |
| 02:34.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | R1!! |
| 02:34.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | 2.6.28.10-power51 doesn't sound like r1 |
| 02:35.06 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: the mp will pull in a recent enough version |
| 02:35.19 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: I assumed 2.6.28.10-power51 was "r1" |
| 02:35.23 | merlin1991 | no point in nitpicking versions prior to any installation of actuall packages |
| 02:35.57 | FIQ | currently waiting on ham loading |
| 02:37.01 | FIQ | merlin1991: though if it's going to pull a newer kernel, my BM backup becomes obsolete :p |
| 02:37.28 | merlin1991 | you can always flash the old image with flasher ;) |
| 02:37.35 | FIQ | no |
| 02:38.17 | FIQ | hm |
| 02:38.30 | merlin1991 | usb port down or why? |
| 02:39.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: err wut? |
| 02:39.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd guess nitpicking versions is essential when it comes to the line between kernel versions that support thumb and those wo don't |
| 02:40.25 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: not if you do it prior to installing the mp which pulls in thumb stuff and a proper kernel |
| 02:40.35 | merlin1991 | that's for post mortem debugging of why the fuck it doesn't boot anymore |
| 02:40.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | dafaq, when updating from CSSU-S, I'm not all that sure there's *any* MP involved |
| 02:41.07 | merlin1991 | oh there is |
| 02:41.15 | merlin1991 | it's always done over the mp |
| 02:41.23 | merlin1991 | the Maemo update avaiable msg comes from the mp |
| 02:41.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, exactly my point |
| 02:41.42 | merlin1991 | ... |
| 02:42.13 | merlin1991 | so he is on current S, adds cssu-thumb repos, gets update avaiable msg |
| 02:42.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui cssu-thumb is a sparse repo that adds new packages on top of cssu-t |
| 02:42.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | simply by bumping the version |
| 02:42.36 | merlin1991 | is that coming from some magical apt uberfoo, or from the mp that fmg maintins |
| 02:42.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | from versions! |
| 02:42.56 | merlin1991 | http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-thumb/pool/free/m/mp-fremantle-community-pr/ |
| 02:43.17 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: and how would that work for ham please? |
| 02:43.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise how are packages downgraded from cssu-thumb to new version in cssu-T6? |
| 02:43.42 | merlin1991 | because they have even higher versions than the -thumb ones |
| 02:43.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, tbh I DGAF |
| 02:45.25 | merlin1991 | btw FIQ Doc actually brought up a proper point, since the current -testing is higher in verison than thumb, you're not going to get the thumb stuff untill freemangordon pushes a new mp |
| 02:45.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo repos are weird enough, cssu-thumb is simply a nightmare, if only because of missing docs of *any* form on how it's supposed to get maintained |
| 02:48.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | so, read that post of fmg on tmo, about 2howto install cssu-thumb", and if it doesn't work, ask fmg |
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| 02:51.59 | FIQ | hm |
| 02:52.14 | FIQ | I seem to be on T6 |
| 02:52.35 | FIQ | ..how do you know if you're on thumb or not? |
| 02:52.51 | merlin1991 | you currently can't get on thumb |
| 02:53.10 | merlin1991 | newest T has a higher verison than thumb untill fmg pushes a new mp |
| 02:53.18 | FIQ | hmm.. |
| 02:53.26 | FIQ | now I don't understand |
| 02:53.32 | FIQ | I was on stable |
| 02:53.37 | merlin1991 | thumb uses 2 repos |
| 02:53.40 | FIQ | clicked on provided link in thumb |
| 02:53.42 | merlin1991 | the testing repo and the thumb repo |
| 02:53.47 | FIQ | and now i'm on testing |
| 02:53.54 | merlin1991 | apt installs the highest version of the mp |
| 02:54.00 | FIQ | ah |
| 02:54.19 | FIQ | so I did do the steps right, just that testing had higher version number |
| 02:54.20 | FIQ | ? |
| 02:54.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly hoped for cssu-thumb repo being a comprehensive duplicate of CSSU-T, with some thumb-augments |
| 02:54.33 | merlin1991 | the current testing release is newer than the newest thumb release -> you'll get a "real" thumb as soon as freemangordon does the next update |
| 02:54.44 | FIQ | ah ok |
| 02:55.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | so the repos would be alternative instead of complementary |
| 02:55.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously complementary repos don't work, in this scenario |
| 02:56.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | gives you a mega headache, if anything |
| 02:57.15 | merlin1991 | nah the friggin metapackage gives you a mega headache |
| 02:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but we didn't make it to get rid if that BULLSHIT |
| 02:57.47 | merlin1991 | we can't |
| 02:59.26 | FIQ | metapackage |
| 02:59.34 | FIQ | mp-fremantle-*-pr? |
| 02:59.37 | merlin1991 | yep |
| 02:59.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | everybody else can live without friggin MP, why can't we? |
| 02:59.45 | FIQ | why is that? |
| 02:59.57 | FIQ | why does it even exist? |
| 02:59.58 | FIQ | :p |
| 02:59.59 | merlin1991 | because nokia removed the concept of system packages from apt |
| 03:00.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | fix dependencies, profit! |
| 03:00.12 | FIQ | ..why? |
| 03:00.16 | FIQ | @ merlin1991 |
| 03:00.33 | merlin1991 | if we "fix" dependencies apt suddenly will think that ALL packages (except for the user installed ones) are candiates for removal |
| 03:00.44 | FIQ | so they removed the point of system packages and reinvented it on its' own? |
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| 03:00.50 | FIQ | ah |
| 03:01.02 | FIQ | sounds like dist-upgrade |
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| 03:01.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd really *really* like to read the internal Nokia whitepaper with the rationale for that fsckng MESS |
| 03:02.22 | FIQ | can't you do some kind of scripts that reintroduces system packages? |
| 03:02.31 | FIQ | like a modified apt or whatever is needed |
| 03:02.40 | FIQ | it should be possible allbeit tedious |
| 03:02.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway not even without any MP cssu-T and cssu-thumb repo would play together nicely |
| 03:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: +1 |
| 03:03.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I frankly admit I still haven't grok'd it what's this system-package stuff all about |
| 03:04.59 | jonwil | basically all we need is a way to mark all the essential-to-the-system packages are "do not remove unless specifically asked to" |
| 03:05.11 | jonwil | i.e. the dependencies of mp-*-pr |
| 03:05.31 | FIQ | shouldn't be that hard |
| 03:05.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: that's what I thought as well |
| 03:05.43 | merlin1991 | on regular debian apt considers a few pacakges "system (might be called different)" packages which are kept installed unless specifically uninstalled, that is done via package metadata |
| 03:06.05 | jonwil | yeah I guess the problem is that none of the Maemo packages are marked as "system-essential" or whatever it is |
| 03:06.07 | FIQ | also |
| 03:06.32 | jonwil | why Nokia went for mp rather than just the system package stuff is beyond me |
| 03:06.33 | merlin1991 | jonwil: yeah, the support for it is missing in apt AND most (c)nokia packages don#t have the marking |
| 03:07.00 | FIQ | if you fix this, wouldn't it make apt more realible in general? |
| 03:07.04 | merlin1991 | jonwil: easy they depend on verisons=something to roll out distinct pr releases where they know the base system is 100% of type X |
| 03:07.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | since they are whimps |
| 03:07.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 03:08.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | real men dare to handle proper ">=" relations for system packages |
| 03:08.47 | jonwil | remembering also that they need to support different firmwares |
| 03:08.52 | FIQ | "4 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 376 to remove and 33 not upgraded." |
| 03:08.56 | FIQ | let's do this! |
| 03:08.59 | jonwil | i.e. the different region versions |
| 03:09.08 | FIQ | ..or not |
| 03:09.13 | merlin1991 | jonwil: there is a different mp in each regional repo |
| 03:09.26 | jonwil | yeah that's what I mean |
| 03:09.36 | FIQ | mp-fremantle-generic-pr |
| 03:09.44 | merlin1991 | mp-fremantle-generic-pr, mp-fremantle-203-pr, mp-fremantle-002-pr, mp-fremantle-003-pr |
| 03:09.49 | FIQ | mp-fremantle-community-pr for cssu |
| 03:09.56 | FIQ | and then the regional one |
| 03:09.57 | FIQ | s |
| 03:09.58 | jonwil | hence why they did it with mp stuff rather than system so they could install the relevant mp package and have it pull the right region bits |
| 03:09.59 | FIQ | yeah, that |
| 03:10.28 | jonwil | maybe an idea is to fix APT in CSSU so it supports this feature |
| 03:10.36 | merlin1991 | you don't have the "generic" repo enabled when you have a different region image flashed |
| 03:10.54 | jonwil | and then add a separate thing that says "if a package is listed in this list, pretend that its metadata has "system-essential set" |
| 03:11.06 | jonwil | i.e. to account for the fact that we cant re-package all the Nokia blobs |
| 03:11.09 | jonwil | with the flag set |
| 03:11.13 | merlin1991 | jonwil: we'd still have to adapt ham |
| 03:11.23 | jonwil | HAM is open source is it not? |
| 03:11.39 | merlin1991 | we're happy about all patches ;) |
| 03:12.07 | merlin1991 | but so far everyone who did anything to ham (including me) came back with a headache |
| 03:12.52 | FIQ | anyone who makes ham load faster would get my full support |
| 03:13.02 | FIQ | :3 |
| 03:13.56 | merlin1991 | well ham loads fast, it's apt-worker that takes forever in the background ;) |
| 03:14.05 | FIQ | meh |
| 03:14.39 | FIQ | also |
| 03:14.48 | FIQ | if you ever remove mp-thingy |
| 03:15.10 | FIQ | mm |
| 03:15.11 | FIQ | nvm |
| 03:15.15 | FIQ | *hmm |
| 03:15.44 | merlin1991 | well the cssu-enabler (in the more recent verisons) marks most dependencies of the nokia pr as user installed |
| 03:15.57 | merlin1991 | so if you remove the mp, you have a good chance everything stays |
| 03:17.05 | FIQ | what's the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade? |
| 03:17.16 | FIQ | besides the latter breaking the os on maemo |
| 03:17.18 | merlin1991 | dist-upgrade is allowed to install new packages |
| 03:17.21 | merlin1991 | and remove others |
| 03:17.30 | FIQ | mhm |
| 03:17.38 | merlin1991 | upgrade only tries to upgrade everything you currently have to newer versions |
| 03:17.43 | FIQ | why does it want to remove the whole os on maemo? |
| 03:17.54 | FIQ | (pretty much |
| 03:17.55 | FIQ | ) |
| 03:18.33 | FIQ | i guess there's some kind of dependency conflict |
| 03:18.34 | merlin1991 | well something somewhere with a newer versions conflicts with a core package and then the dependency chain is broken and it wants to autoremove the rest |
| 03:20.00 | merlin1991 | also dist-upgrade removes any packges that are not a dependency of something, user installed or system essential ;) |
| 03:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see any problem with marking *ALL* as user-installed, then nuke friggin MP for good and never come back |
| 03:23.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | and while we're at it, change all "==" dependencies to ">=" (except those on a blacklist) |
| 03:23.15 | FIQ | hmm |
| 03:23.34 | FIQ | i'm not sure but i think something went wrong during cssu update |
| 03:23.43 | FIQ | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:23.56 | FIQ | seems that i have an old libgcc1 still |
| 03:24.40 | merlin1991 | btw the main culprit for dist-upgrade going mental is the gcc 4.6 in extras-devel |
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| 03:31.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: I might be wrong, but I think cssu-thumb comes with a new glibc for that other (poll?) bug |
| 03:33.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: then there's also been some widespread misconception about version numbering colation and "-" vs "+" char iirc |
| 03:33.59 | jonwil | is there a valid reason to have glibc in extras-devel? |
| 03:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | not really |
| 03:37.20 | jonwil | why not get it removed from extras then to avoid the problems? |
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| 03:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, my standard advice: never do a apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade or apt-get autoremove |
| 03:52.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd expect more than just glibc to cause problems when indicriminately updating everything against extras-devel |
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| 04:15.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | but as a general rule there shouldn't be updates in extras-devel of stuff bound to MP |
| 04:16.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither in extras-devel nor any of the other extras* repos, aiui |
| 04:17.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all that's what cssu got invented for |
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| 08:39.28 | kerio | FIQ: there's a way to toy around with apt priorities to automatically stay on cssu-thumb instead of moving to cssu-testing |
| 08:40.07 | kerio | FIQ: anyway, the upgrade to -Tmaemo6 should've installed a bunch of thumb packages, you're only missing hildon-desktop and something else |
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| 08:53.24 | Gear | what is the best mapping software for the n900 currently? |
| 08:54.10 | Gear | most of the map stuff ended up not quite finished and I pretty often just use google maps, but the browser is slow |
| 08:57.34 | kerio | Gear: maybe maep |
| 08:58.45 | Gear | is there a stable version of it? |
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| 09:01.02 | kerio | idk |
| 09:08.19 | joga | Gear maep is pretty nice and quick, but recently I've just started up modrana if I need a map (since I've pre-downloaded the tiles in it) |
| 09:10.21 | joga | also cloudgps is fancy but for some reason for me doesn't enable gps when I start it, so I also need to run something like gpsdata in bg |
| 09:12.34 | Gear | yeah I had trouble with cloud gps |
| 09:12.47 | Gear | maep doesn't seem to search for anywhere |
| 09:13.05 | Gear | it tells me where I am, but I can usually tell that by looking at a street sign |
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| 09:51.42 | |thunder | is maemo still being used in modern/new hardware ? |
| 09:52.37 | |thunder | or is the n900 the fastest thing it runs on ? |
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| 10:08.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gear: try marble |
| 10:08.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | |thunder: the latter |
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| 10:18.12 | kerio | if by maemo you mean the actual maemo fremantle with all of its quirks and closed bits, then no - it'll only ever run on the n900 |
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| 10:22.12 | trumee | DocScrutinizer05: N900 doesnt mount on android, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1302648&postcount=632 |
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| 10:26.46 | kerio | trumee: it's probably because of a lack of partition table |
| 10:27.02 | trumee | kerio: ah, i see |
| 10:27.31 | trumee | kerio: i though emmc was partitioned in N900? |
| 10:27.40 | kerio | it is |
| 10:27.45 | kerio | but only mmcblk0p1 is exported |
| 10:27.48 | kerio | not the whole of mmcblk0 |
| 10:29.24 | kerio | i'm not sure how you'd fix that |
| 10:29.42 | kerio | g_file_storage is somewhat rigid, it wants a single file to export |
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| 10:33.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, /dev/mmcblk0 is also a single file ;-) |
| 10:34.16 | trumee | looks like i am stuffed then. |
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| 11:02.18 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: yeah but if you export mmcblk0 you have to be damn sure not to change anything in the other partitins |
| 11:02.20 | kerio | partitions |
| 11:02.30 | kerio | (i'm not even sure it's possible, anyway) |
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| 11:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, yeah |
| 11:02.59 | kerio | i mean, usb mass storage does export my whole sd, including the partitions i'm using as swap |
| 11:03.07 | kerio | but i never actually tried writing on one of those :) |
| 11:03.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | home and swap being mounted might forbid export |
| 11:03.42 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: nah, it exports fine |
| 11:04.22 | kerio | i bet (read: i hope) g_file_storage returns IO error when the usb host tries to write to a partition that's already mounted |
| 11:05.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha, why do you hope / think so? |
| 11:05.22 | kerio | anyway, it's weird that android doesn't support usb superfloppies |
| 11:05.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 11:05.52 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: because the kernel locks down swap partitions tightly, usually |
| 11:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but mmcblk0 is a raw phy dev, with no idea about the partitions on it |
| 11:06.32 | kerio | hm :( |
| 11:06.51 | kerio | then i really want ke-recv to be configurable, so at least i don't risk exploding my system |
| 11:07.07 | kerio | i still haven't *found* the place where it decides "ok, i'll export mmcblk0p1 and mmcblk1" |
| 11:07.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | so unless there's a sector lock on every sector, you won't see anything hindering you to nuke your home ext3 or swap partition |
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| 11:08.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think ke-recv passing those parameters to osso-export-foo.sh |
| 11:09.24 | jonwil | what exactly is ke-recv anyway? |
| 11:09.43 | kerio | jonwil: a bad copy of autofs, or something |
| 11:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | a process that listens to several event sources |
| 11:10.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | similar to udev, in a certain way |
| 11:10.19 | jonwil | ok, so its basically there to listen to a bunch of hardware and kernel triggers and then react somehow? |
| 11:10.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 11:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 11:10.56 | kerio | jonwil: the same thing is doable in a better way by configuring udev |
| 11:11.02 | kerio | but alas, nokia is nokia |
| 11:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | see ke-recv-test |
| 11:11.24 | jonwil | at least ke-recv is open source so we can mess with it if we need to :) |
| 11:11.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: afaik not really, since udev not listening to kevents |
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| 11:12.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | Usage: ke-recv-test <command> [/dev/mmcblk(1|0)] cb - close battery cover signal ob - open battery cover signal f - format device <arg> r - rename device <arg> l - send device locked signal u - send device unlocked signal at - send USB attached signal de - send USB detached signal s - swap on (ext-)MMC si - swap on (int-)MMC t - swap off (ext-)MMC ti - swap off (int-)MMC e - check device <arg> ej - eject USB ec - cancel eject USB p - |
| 11:12.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | enable PC Suite c - enable charging mode m - enable USB mass storage |
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| 11:20.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: which cssu actually did already |
| 11:21.03 | jonwil | :) |
| 11:21.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask Pali |
| 11:23.31 | Pali | ke-recv is daemon which listening HAL events from dbus and run some commands |
| 11:23.48 | Pali | it mounting MyDocs, SD card and usb flash devices |
| 11:24.24 | Pali | and also umount them when back cover is detached |
| 11:24.35 | kerio | the last thing is really, really stupid, btw |
| 11:24.49 | kerio | once the backcover is detached, you can't write to the usd anymore |
| 11:24.59 | kerio | any attempt at unmounting it is just silly |
| 11:25.42 | jonwil | Is that back-cover thing a kernel thing or a hardware thing? |
| 11:25.51 | kerio | jonwil: yes |
| 11:26.02 | jonwil | kernel or hardware? |
| 11:26.25 | kerio | the last time i asked, nobody was sure |
| 11:26.58 | kerio | it could be a thing in the usd kernel module |
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| 11:34.47 | Pali | backcover is visible in kernel as GPIO pin and kernel automatically disconnect SD card (decrease some voltage) |
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| 12:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | incorrect, I'm sure it's sw |
| 12:13.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and iirc I was sure last time you asked |
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| 12:18.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | cat /sys/class/mmc_host/mmc0/cover_switch |
| 12:18.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | see mmc0(!) |
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| 12:36.55 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: so can we disable the cover switch? |
| 12:37.13 | SpeedEvil | yes |
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| 12:42.09 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: cover_switch has perms 0444 |
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| 12:44.40 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, now I'm tunning usbmode.sh script for switching to usb host mode and I found one problem... |
| 12:45.08 | Pali | more times switching to host mode failing because udev trying to load some usb driver which causing some errors |
| 12:45.47 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, is good idea to pause udev when switching to host mode and resume it after usb device is visible? |
| 12:46.06 | Pali | udevadm control --stop_exec_queue and udevadm control --start_exec_queue |
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| 12:54.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I'd rather augment the udev rule that kicks in |
| 12:55.27 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, and with my usb hub I see other problem. when I'm not using hub for about 1min kernel autosuspend usb bus and after I want to do with hub it cannot resume it |
| 12:55.47 | Pali | in dmesg I see errors: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -19 |
| 12:55.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, that's kinda strange |
| 12:56.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno why it autosuspends |
| 12:56.18 | Pali | but if I doing something with hub (and kernel not enter usb into suspend) it is ok |
| 12:56.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah |
| 12:56.28 | Pali | because usbcore doing autosuspend automatically |
| 12:56.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a usb suspend mode, I know |
| 12:56.42 | Pali | what do you think about disabling usb autosuspend? |
| 12:57.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | should already been done |
| 12:57.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought we did take care about it back when we patched kernel |
| 12:57.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously we missed sth |
| 12:58.05 | Pali | usbcore is statically linked into zImage, so only option to change autosuspned is via sysfs: /sys/module/usbcore/parameters/autosuspend |
| 12:58.17 | Pali | I'm going to try to find some doc about that file |
| 12:58.23 | Pali | cat on maemo show me value 2 |
| 12:59.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't recall I'd have seen any 60s period for suspend in musb_hdrc.c and relatives |
| 13:00.31 | Pali | usbcore.autosuspend= [USB] The autosuspend time delay (in seconds) used for newly-detected USB devices (default 2). This is the time required before an idle device will be autosuspended. Devices for which the delay is set to a negative value won't be autosuspended at all. |
| 13:00.37 | Pali | on maemo it is 2 |
| 13:01.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I guess you can kick it out of source completely, I don't know right now why we'd need it |
| 13:01.57 | Pali | autosuspend is part of usbcore |
| 13:02.04 | Pali | we cannot detele usbcore module |
| 13:02.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't suggest to delete the whole module |
| 13:02.55 | Pali | $ echo -1 > /sys/module/usbcore/parameters/autosuspend |
| 13:02.58 | Pali | fixed that problem |
| 13:04.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 13:10.20 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, and I have other problem. when I connect usb hub to n900 and start usb host mode, hub is detected |
| 13:10.48 | Pali | if I connect hub with connected usb device before starting usb host mode when both device and hub are detected after usb host mode is enabled |
| 13:11.14 | Pali | but if I plug usb device into hub which was already detected in usb host mode, it will break usb host mode |
| 13:11.26 | Pali | again errors: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -71 |
| 13:11.42 | Pali | and then lsusb does not see hub too |
| 13:19.56 | Pali | hm, my usb mouse is working, only one usb flash device & usb ethernet card causing that problem |
| 13:20.37 | Pali | btw, after unplugging usb from n900 is needed to rmmod g_file_storage to deregister usb device from system |
| 13:20.50 | Pali | unloading g_file_storage doing that job |
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| 14:00.11 | peetah | hi, someone knows anything about how to activate EAP-SIM support for N900 ? |
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| 14:01.08 | pdanek | Hello, anyone tried if Etymotic Research headsets work for N900? Models like mc2, hf2,.... |
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| 14:04.29 | SpeedEvil | peetah: I doubt it is possible |
| 14:04.43 | SpeedEvil | peetah: it requires support in the modem code. |
| 14:05.04 | peetah | SpeedEvil: and I guess that depends on closed source code ? |
| 14:05.11 | pdanek | Hmm, it must support a 3.5 mm/ 4-conductor stereo phone plug. |
| 14:05.15 | pdanek | I suppose, N900 does? |
| 14:05.21 | pdanek | 4 conductor |
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| 14:06.26 | SpeedEvil | peetah: closed, encrypted, signed |
| 14:06.35 | peetah | nice :) |
| 14:07.39 | SpeedEvil | pdanek: find out the part number for the headset. now, find out if it's compatible with that headset, or with phones supporting it. I think all Nokia 4 pin dumb headsets are the same pin out |
| 14:07.42 | peetah | SpeedEvil: so no hope on this part then, thanks for answering |
| 14:08.01 | SpeedEvil | peetah: probably not, unless it's alreadymnsauppirted. |
| 14:08.21 | SpeedEvil | I thought that this was a network side authentication |
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| 14:13.52 | pdanek | SpeedEvil: thanks, but it seems that Nokia headsets are 3 pin only :O |
| 14:14.07 | pdanek | sorry, Nokia jack inputs I mean |
| 14:14.20 | SpeedEvil | no, they aren't |
| 14:14.34 | SpeedEvil | they are stereo plus mic |
| 14:14.38 | SpeedEvil | 4 wore |
| 14:14.42 | SpeedEvil | wire |
| 14:15.12 | pdanek | great, so N900 has 4 pin, right? |
| 14:15.18 | SpeedEvil | yes |
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| 14:15.30 | pdanek | it means, it should support most of universal 1 button headsets |
| 14:15.35 | SpeedEvil | but there are two 4 pin standards |
| 14:15.38 | pdanek | aha |
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| 15:54.52 | RzR | question : nokia n900 vs nokia e7 vs lumia 800 ? |
| 15:55.10 | Sicelo | lol |
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| 16:11.51 | Pali | New version of usbmode: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1302811#post1302811 |
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| 16:21.31 | Sicelo | Pali: this will automatically work fine with non-disk stuff? |
| 16:22.13 | Pali | Sicelo, it always worked and working for non-disk devices too |
| 16:23.00 | Sicelo | ok. i'm still on KP50. i'll upgrade and install usbmode |
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| 16:39.56 | Sicelo | Pali: one more question... usbmode won't complain if i connect a device+power using a y-cable? |
| 16:40.01 | kerio | Pali: bme 1.0 should really add an empty /etc/bme-disabled fle |
| 16:40.02 | kerio | *file |
| 16:40.54 | Pali | Sicelo, before usb host mode will be established you need to disconnect power from y-cable |
| 16:41.29 | kerio | Pali: pnatd should be stopped on G_NOKIA_REMOVE, so maybe wait a couple of seconds before killing it? |
| 16:41.31 | Pali | but usbmode support host mode with charging (see screenshot) |
| 16:42.29 | Sicelo | hmm, ok. i'll look at it some more |
| 16:43.04 | Pali | kerio, I'm not sending KILL signal, so daemon should handle it |
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| 16:49.42 | markinfo | hi. Would you sugest to buy Nokia N9? is there some Maemo similar OS? |
| 16:52.47 | RzR | i would |
| 16:54.36 | markinfo | but "used" for 200€ ? |
| 16:54.45 | kerio | markinfo: meh, it's quite unlike a n900 |
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| 17:45.30 | Lava_Croft | its quite unlike the N900 |
| 17:45.34 | Lava_Croft | but its also quite like the N900 |
| 17:45.41 | Lava_Croft | and nothing else on the market comes closer to the N900 than the N9 |
| 17:45.49 | Lava_Croft | so yes, a total recommendation |
| 17:46.24 | NIN102 | isn't it a dead end? |
| 17:46.38 | Lava_Croft | So what |
| 17:46.52 | Lava_Croft | Doesnt make the device any less usable |
| 17:47.01 | Lava_Croft | And again, there's nothing else on the market like it:| |
| 17:47.10 | Lava_Croft | Unless you want to go with lol openmoko |
| 17:47.35 | Aoyagi | ...what's that? |
| 17:48.51 | Lava_Croft | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko |
| 17:49.01 | Aoyagi | No longer supporting phones, huh. |
| 17:49.08 | Aoyagi | And yes, I can google too :3 |
| 17:49.13 | Lava_Croft | Why ask then ? :) |
| 17:49.21 | Aoyagi | For a more personal response. |
| 17:49.52 | Aoyagi | Internet people seem to have forgotten that they were there once :D |
| 17:49.52 | Lava_Croft | That would just get you a biased responce on the futility of such shitty hobby projects that rarely yield any desirable results |
| 17:49.57 | Lava_Croft | But i dont want to hurt any feelings, see |
| 17:50.08 | Aoyagi | Well |
| 17:50.25 | Aoyagi | "lol openmoko" isn't exactly neutral either. |
| 17:50.31 | Lava_Croft | ;) |
| 17:50.33 | Aoyagi | Which is why I asked :) |
| 17:51.26 | Aoyagi | Well, it looks ugly. |
| 17:53.11 | markinfo | well. But there is question if to buy Nokia N9 for 200€ or samsung Galaxy S for 100€. |
| 17:53.24 | Lava_Croft | the samsung will just leave you with android |
| 17:53.40 | Lava_Croft | if you are a N900 user, Android will most likely piss you off |
| 17:53.41 | markinfo | and N9? What is there? |
| 17:53.48 | Lava_Croft | N9 runs Maemo6 |
| 17:53.58 | kerio | the n9 runs meego/harmattan |
| 17:54.07 | Lava_Croft | dont believe the marketing |
| 17:54.14 | Lava_Croft | its just maemo6 that got mutilated with meego apis |
| 17:54.49 | markinfo | I tried Android - but it looks chaotic - especialy closing programs is a nightmare. |
| 17:55.04 | Lava_Croft | 'multitasking' in general is a bit weird on Android |
| 17:55.18 | Aoyagi | What? I thought Android at least had full control over applications, multitasking, etc... |
| 17:55.26 | Aoyagi | ah, ninja'd |
| 17:55.29 | Lava_Croft | android has no real multitasking like the n900 or n9:) |
| 17:55.44 | Lava_Croft | it's more like suspending apps |
| 17:55.55 | Aoyagi | N95 is multitasking enough :/ |
| 17:56.44 | markinfo | never heard about Nokia N95 |
| 17:56.57 | markinfo | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N95 |
| 17:56.59 | Aoyagi | >.> |
| 17:57.07 | RST38h | Android has real multitasking |
| 17:57.19 | RST38h | But it is not part of their mainstream development model. |
| 17:57.38 | RST38h | YOu have to explicitely ask the system for it |
| 17:58.29 | Aoyagi | "Work the way you should, bloody thing" |
| 17:58.30 | Lava_Croft | In reality that means almost no application does real multitasking |
| 18:00.18 | RST38h | All applications that need multitasking, do multitasking |
| 18:00.35 | RST38h | That includes audio players, GPS loggers, and SSH server |
| 18:00.37 | Lava_Croft | Thats incorrect |
| 18:00.46 | Lava_Croft | Minimizing a game on android basically closes the game |
| 18:00.49 | Aoyagi | Browsers don't -need- multitasking, but the hell I demand that. |
| 18:00.58 | Lava_Croft | and getting the game on the forefront again makes android reload the entire game |
| 18:01.05 | markinfo | where is maemo6? http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_and_Maemo6 ??? |
| 18:01.11 | RST38h | Aoyagi: You can only "demand" something if you show the money |
| 18:01.20 | Aoyagi | I can show them my old N95. |
| 18:01.29 | RST38h | Aoyagi: For Android, that would be in the range of tens of millions |
| 18:01.44 | Aoyagi | Bah, stupid Android :D |
| 18:01.51 | Lava_Croft | Android is the Windows95 of our current times |
| 18:01.53 | RST38h | Lava: YOu cannot minimize a game on Android. It has no minimize button |
| 18:02.06 | Lava_Croft | RST38h: minimize as in switch to another task |
| 18:02.13 | Lava_Croft | you can minimize on android |
| 18:02.16 | Lava_Croft | you just suspend all apps |
| 18:02.18 | RST38h | Anyways, Android is basically one huge trashcan, indeed |
| 18:02.28 | Lava_Croft | its incoherent |
| 18:02.38 | Lava_Croft | i had to downgrade from 4.2 to some 4.1 CM10 |
| 18:02.41 | RST38h | But you do not seem to understand how that trashcan works, even |
| 18:02.43 | Lava_Croft | 4.2 brought all kinds of brokenness |
| 18:02.55 | Lava_Croft | Thats the point |
| 18:03.02 | Lava_Croft | If its not operating like a 'normal' PC |
| 18:03.07 | Lava_Croft | Then I dont care:) |
| 18:03.19 | Lava_Croft | Android is not operating like a 'normal' PC, so it's junk to me |
| 18:03.35 | Lava_Croft | Don't need the technical understanding of its inner workings for that |
| 18:03.37 | Aoyagi | The more I hear about it the more it sounds like S40. |
| 18:04.08 | Aoyagi | Except with massive fanbase and "app" market. |
| 18:04.29 | Lava_Croft | I'm not so sure about this 'fanbase' |
| 18:04.40 | Lava_Croft | Most of them are just people who wanted a smartphone and thought Apple's prices were too high |
| 18:04.44 | Aoyagi | Well I see them everywhere. |
| 18:04.51 | Aoyagi | "android is teh best" they say |
| 18:04.55 | Lava_Croft | Of course |
| 18:05.02 | Lava_Croft | They also say their local soccerteam is the best |
| 18:05.09 | Lava_Croft | And they say my N9 is shit because it runs Windows |
| 18:05.19 | Aoyagi | W8? |
| 18:05.31 | ShadowJK | N9 doesn't run windows |
| 18:05.38 | Lava_Croft | rolls his eyes |
| 18:06.00 | Aoyagi | I'm presuming the answer to that would be "not by default". |
| 18:06.09 | ShadowJK | heh |
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| 18:06.58 | Aoyagi | Come to think of it, I haven't read any good Win8 bashing articles for a while... |
| 18:07.01 | ShadowJK | Probably one advantage N9 has would be that it doesn't freeze the world when you switch app? |
| 18:07.07 | Lava_Croft | is on Win8 atm |
| 18:07.20 | Lava_Croft | Its nearly exactly like Win7 |
| 18:07.35 | Aoyagi | If you use Classic Shell, sure. |
| 18:07.53 | Lava_Croft | even without it its a nobrainer to switch away from metro and just use classic desktop all day |
| 18:07.58 | Lava_Croft | keyboard shortcuts enough |
| 18:08.29 | Aoyagi | Well, some people are used to the Start menu. |
| 18:08.35 | Lava_Croft | most of the win8 bashing must really come from people who havent used it, because with my everyday usage, its just windows7 with weird notifications:) |
| 18:08.54 | Lava_Croft | I use Classic Shell, I like the start menu:) |
| 18:08.58 | Aoyagi | hah |
| 18:09.14 | Lava_Croft | But people make it sound like Windows8 will break everything |
| 18:09.22 | Lava_Croft | and you have to re-learn how to use your Windows PC etc |
| 18:09.37 | Lava_Croft | All MS's own fault tho |
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| 18:09.41 | Lava_Croft | Win8 is schizophrenic |
| 18:10.58 | Aoyagi | Well, I didn't feel any need to move forward from 7 yet. |
| 18:11.13 | Aoyagi | I -did- feel an urge to move back to XP many times though... |
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| 18:11.45 | Lava_Croft | why |
| 18:11.49 | Lava_Croft | XP is an insecure pos |
| 18:11.53 | Aoyagi | O ye. |
| 18:12.00 | Lava_Croft | Downgrading from 7 to XP borders on insanity |
| 18:12.09 | Lava_Croft | Unless you lack the hardware to run 7, of course |
| 18:12.13 | Aoyagi | But I hate "Networks and sharing center" a LOT, even more I hate Ribbon. |
| 18:12.25 | Lava_Croft | I dont hate software, its just software |
| 18:12.32 | Aoyagi | :< |
| 18:12.39 | Aoyagi | Alright, I hate using it. |
| 18:12.41 | Lava_Croft | Ribbon is better when you can customize it |
| 18:12.52 | Aoyagi | I could customize stuff before and even better. |
| 18:12.53 | Lava_Croft | Overall it bothers me less than the hell of nested menus |
| 18:13.09 | Aoyagi | mreh |
| 18:13.09 | Lava_Croft | And at least in Office i can customize the ribbon |
| 18:13.23 | Aoyagi | Well, that's why I refuse to leave office 2003 :D |
| 18:13.24 | Lava_Croft | I dont use the windows file explorer orso |
| 18:13.33 | Lava_Croft | I guess that has ribbon too |
| 18:13.38 | Aoyagi | No. |
| 18:13.49 | Lava_Croft | On 8 it does |
| 18:13.56 | Lava_Croft | But I use Clover, due to tabs |
| 18:14.12 | Aoyagi | What? |
| 18:14.13 | Lava_Croft | http://ejie.me/clover-wings-for-explorer |
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| 18:14.30 | Lava_Croft | one day of this and you will never use the vanilla Explorer in Windows again |
| 18:14.33 | Aoyagi | Yes, I meant the 2003 on Win8 Ribbon thing |
| 18:14.45 | Lava_Croft | Ah |
| 18:14.50 | Lava_Croft | office 2003 is ribbon-less, yeah |
| 18:15.05 | Aoyagi | Heh, I wondered :D |
| 18:15.55 | Lava_Croft | There's one plus to Win8 tho |
| 18:15.59 | Lava_Croft | I can play Wordfeud on it:) |
| 18:16.29 | Aoyagi | Yeah, that's a deal-sealer. xD |
| 18:16.39 | Sicelo | Pali: wow. thanks for usbmode :-) |
| 18:16.52 | Lava_Croft | The real deal-sealer is the ads inside certain Metro apps |
| 18:17.04 | Lava_Croft | for example, Wordfeud also has a section for chatting with your opponent |
| 18:17.17 | Lava_Croft | everytime Wordfeud loads another ad in the lower right of the screen, it removes focus from the chat area |
| 18:17.21 | Aoyagi | Ads? OS with ads in it? Hnnnngh |
| 18:17.23 | Lava_Croft | so you were typing and blam it quits working |
| 18:17.26 | Lava_Croft | not the OS, the app |
| 18:17.32 | Aoyagi | Oh, yes, on Metro |
| 18:17.39 | Aoyagi | Right, makes sense. |
| 18:18.07 | Sicelo | however, i would suggest you give us an option to enable/disable its presence on the status menu. personally i only like it there if it's active. i would prefer nothing if it's not active ( Pali ) |
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| 18:31.02 | kerio | Sicelo: i'd actually like it to be merged with the battery applet and the usb mode selector |
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| 18:33.59 | Sicelo | what battery applet? i have a minimal status menu, and i like it that way. |
| 18:34.57 | Sicelo | flashlight comes up only when 'active', as well as lfocus. i'd be happy with an option to select same for usbmode |
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| 18:36.11 | Sicelo | anyway, i still like it a lot :-) |
| 18:36.45 | kerio | Sicelo: pali's battery applet |
| 18:37.07 | kerio | the replacement for the battery icon in the status area and the silly "Battery" in the status menu |
| 18:37.24 | Sicelo | i don't know it |
| 18:37.49 | Sicelo | you have a screenshot? |
| 18:38.37 | Lava_Croft | Sicelo: Upper right of status menu |
| 18:38.48 | Sicelo | heh |
| 18:38.52 | Lava_Croft | by default, it [battery icon] Battery |
| 18:38.56 | Lava_Croft | it reads* |
| 18:39.08 | Sicelo | i mean Pali's.. |
| 18:39.08 | kerio | Sicelo: http://i.imgur.com/LkLu8.png |
| 18:39.25 | Sicelo | thanks. |
| 18:39.42 | Lava_Croft | Oh yeah, I should look into that battery thing from Pali |
| 18:39.57 | kerio | Lava_Croft: it's pretty fire-and-forget |
| 18:40.15 | kerio | but it's weird if you don't have a calibrated bq27200 |
| 18:40.19 | Lava_Croft | That term always scared me |
| 18:40.26 | Lava_Croft | fire-and-forget |
| 18:40.26 | kerio | unless you still have bme |
| 18:40.34 | Lava_Croft | I still have vanilla bme |
| 18:40.40 | kerio | is disappoint |
| 18:40.43 | Sicelo | me too. |
| 18:40.48 | Lava_Croft | This works fine |
| 18:40.51 | Sicelo | i have stock bme, heh |
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| 18:43.50 | Sicelo | that said, that battery applet looks good |
| 18:43.55 | Lava_Croft | yup:) |
| 18:44.28 | Sicelo | what does the 3 giorni mean? :p |
| 18:44.34 | Lava_Croft | hours? |
| 18:45.02 | Sicelo | i hope not, lol. |
| 18:45.39 | Lava_Croft | giorno is day |
| 18:45.56 | Lava_Croft | might be the uptime or something |
| 18:46.06 | Lava_Croft | or the time its running since last charge? :P |
| 18:46.51 | Sicelo | as long as it's not hours, heh. it would be kinda scary to have 63% battery and be told you have 3 more hours to go, lol |
| 18:54.33 | Lava_Croft | it might be basing it on current load |
| 18:54.40 | Lava_Croft | and he MIGHT just be running several youtube videos :) |
| 18:55.41 | Sicelo | :P |
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| 18:56.21 | Sicelo | nope, he doesn't seem to be. at least he doesn't have any applications in the background |
| 18:56.36 | Sicelo | unless it's widgets |
| 18:59.41 | Lava_Croft | :) |
| 18:59.58 | Lava_Croft | Man, I love making HAM update |
| 19:00.03 | Lava_Croft | and then waiting for what, 10 minutes |
| 19:00.08 | Lava_Croft | I love HAM |
| 19:01.25 | Sicelo | :P |
| 19:02.13 | Sicelo | can't even remember when last he use it |
| 19:02.23 | Lava_Croft | I just use it to make myself remember why i never use it |
| 19:02.31 | Lava_Croft | Oh noo |
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| 19:02.46 | Lava_Croft | Just as I watch at HAM do nothing, my ship gets shot down by bad guys in Oolite |
| 19:02.49 | Lava_Croft | goddamn you |
| 19:06.45 | Sicelo | is tempted to 'rm /usr/share/applications/hildon-status-menu/usbmode-status-menu-item.desktop' |
| 19:06.51 | Sicelo | :-/ |
| 19:07.33 | Sicelo | ahah, there's a disabled dir in there |
| 19:08.27 | kerio | Sicelo: don't rm, dpkg-divert |
| 19:10.55 | Sicelo | checks the manual |
| 19:11.21 | kerio | Sicelo: it's basically a mv that stays consistent whatever dpkg does |
| 19:13.20 | kerio | Pali: hm, i had to upgrade fiasco-image-update-ask from version 0.1 to version 0.1 |
| 19:13.30 | kerio | what did you change in the version you pushed to cssu-devel? |
| 19:13.38 | Pali | I pushed it to extras-devel |
| 19:13.47 | Pali | because autobuilder is now working :-) |
| 19:13.54 | kerio | oh, it's -devel |
| 19:14.01 | kerio | still, you changed something from the deb i had |
| 19:14.20 | Pali | nothing was changed, only autobuilder compiled new binary |
| 19:14.32 | kerio | oh, different compiler version and stuff |
| 19:14.33 | kerio | i see |
| 19:15.08 | Pali | different md5sum of deb package |
| 19:15.35 | Pali | with new timestamp in apt repository, so apt-get will see new version |
| 19:16.15 | kerio | hm, i think that apt checks the md5sums of the files inside, not the md5 of the whole package |
| 19:16.41 | kerio | anyway, i see |
| 19:16.46 | Pali | in apt repository there is md5sum |
| 19:16.54 | kerio | i know, i know :) |
| 19:17.59 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, it is possible to detect if there is connected some usb device to n900? |
| 19:18.11 | Pali | or not because hw? |
| 19:21.46 | kerio | Pali: is it possible to tell bq24150 to only draw a certain amount of current? |
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| 19:22.59 | Pali | In boost mode you cannot configure anything |
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| 19:36.35 | Sicelo | kerio: thanks. i learned one new command today (well, i'd always heard about dpkg-divert, but never got around to using it) :) |
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| 19:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: no |
| 19:58.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically |
| 19:59.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | D+ and D- (aka J / K) will change their level when VBUS boost starts |
| 19:59.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you need to poll to detect this |
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| 20:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | and obviously you first need to enable VBUS boost to do anything about it, which you want to do only when you already know there's sth attached to USB |
| 20:04.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | in short: detecting devices on USB host costs constantly ~80mA of battery current |
| 20:06.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | what *might* be detectable was somebody attaching a fake micra-A plug - with ID pin grounded |
| 20:06.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | micro* |
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| 20:58.05 | kerio | ~pkg |
| 20:58.05 | infobot | methinks pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ |
| 20:58.21 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: can you elaborate on your last idea? |
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| 21:02.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: sorry? |
| 21:03.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | which last idea? maybe I suffer from ADHS |
| 21:03.35 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: grounding the ID pin |
| 21:03.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 21:04.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | the standardized method to signel OTG to switch to hostmode |
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| 21:04.26 | kerio | hold on, isn't that pin unusable on the n900? |
| 21:04.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | the USB ID pin is routed to GAIA/twl4030 |
| 21:05.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, it works, it's just not connected to where it would really help to do the switching automatically |
| 21:06.58 | kerio | i see |
| 21:07.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | while the whole USB moved to 1707 PHY, the ID pin still is connected to GAIA (the chip where original PHY is located, and which got dumped for enabling USB charging) |
| 21:08.03 | kerio | hm, when should my upstart daemon start? on stopped rcS? on started hal? |
| 21:08.25 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: why? did they do this on purpose, or did they just botch it? |
| 21:08.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ?? |
| 21:10.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | they didn't bother since they had to frop the whole USB host stuff, since they were not able to satisfy USB cert requirements for OTG, so they replaced the AB receptacle (OTG) by a B (peripheral) one, and didn't care any more about stuff like ID pin |
| 21:10.18 | kerio | :( |
| 21:10.59 | Sicelo | what about hardware modding this? |
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| 21:17.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | impossible |
| 21:17.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | and actually, what for? |
| 21:18.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | h-e-n works |
| 21:18.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody ever used OTG |
| 21:20.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically OTG is like the additional pins of a full rs232 plug. Nobody ever needed it, somebody once thought it was a nice idea, but since it wasn't widely adopted there were other alternative methods to accomplish the same thing |
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| 21:20.59 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: being able to just connect an adapter to start boost mode would be neat, though |
| 21:21.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | host negotiation protocol, c' mon now rwally? |
| 21:21.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | really* |
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| 21:21.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I elaborated above that you can implement exactly that with N900 as is |
| 21:26.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | the ID pin runs from receptacle directly to pin R11 of twl4030. twl4030 in turn has integrated means to detect when that pin gets pulled to GND |
| 21:26.41 | kerio | hold on, so what's the problem? |
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| 21:26.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | kernel doesn't support any of that automatically |
| 21:27.05 | kerio | oh |
| 21:28.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you need a running hen-daemon (or some kernel patches) that does the booston stuff and hostmode enabling when twl4030 detects ID=GND |
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| 21:29.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you need some initialization of twl4030 pin R11, so it detects and acts on ID=GND |
| 21:30.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually you could initialize twl4030 in a way so it autoatically starts VBUS chargepump (= boost) and switches PHY and musb_core into host-mode. But in N900 neither PHY nor chargepump/boost are implemented with twl4030 |
| 21:32.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | so your software needs to detect the ID pin grounding, start bq24150 boostmode and kick musb_core's ass to enter a fake hostmode |
| 21:35.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want to do the complete hassle of patching kernel plus hacking some micro-B_with_ID_grounded adapter, just to avoid having to click on h-e-n icon, you're welcome to provide patches and source addr for adapters |
| 21:36.41 | kerio | well, the micro-B_with_ID_grounded should be an almost-standard microusb OTG adapter |
| 21:36.59 | kerio | like the one for the samsung galaxy s2 |
| 21:37.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | almost, except those adapters have an A plug |
| 21:37.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | not a B |
| 21:38.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | search tmo hostmode thread about several posts like "filing down a N8 adapter to fit into n900" |
| 21:38.32 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: the galaxy s2 adapter has a microusb B plug |
| 21:38.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | extremely ugly result, but feasible |
| 21:38.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, maybe |
| 21:39.18 | kerio | i'm not sure how or why, afaik it's against the standard |
| 21:39.28 | kerio | but every picture on the internets shows a B plug |
| 21:39.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | there *are* adapters with micro-B plug though grounded ID pin |
| 21:39.51 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: anyway, we also have the problem of properly acting like a usb host anyway |
| 21:40.00 | kerio | detecting/choosing speed and stuff like that |
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| 21:40.11 | kerio | do one-port usb hubs exist? |
| 21:40.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | for all that no ID pin will help |
| 21:40.34 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: can the n8x0 act like a usb host more easily? |
| 21:40.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | err yes |
| 21:41.01 | kerio | because of the different hardware? |
| 21:41.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | since there the musb_core gets the proper signal from PHY |
| 21:41.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, because of different PHY than N900 |
| 21:41.33 | kerio | figures :( |
| 21:42.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | the N8x0 PHY supports host/A signalling, but it lacks fastcharger D+/- detection |
| 21:43.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | the twl4030 PHY is supposed to support both, but has a silicon erratum |
| 21:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why Nokia did a late redesign and switched to 1707 PHY |
| 21:44.00 | kerio | shame |
| 21:45.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | NB that *all* of my statements about Nokia's motivations and actions are mere personal guesses |
| 21:48.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | fact however is that the 1707 ID input is hardwired to VDD (high), and the 1707 doesn't support emulation of grounding that pin like the PHY in N8x0 does, so there's no way to switch musb_core to proper OTG/host mode |
| 21:49.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | since for that the musb_core needs a message from PHY telling it that ID pin got grounded |
| 21:50.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | and musb_core is a friggin statemachine with really limited options to change state from software side |
| 21:50.30 | vi_ | I bet somone gets fired for every silicon erratum. |
| 21:50.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. the message from PHY is the *only* way to put musb_core statemachine into true hostmode |
| 21:51.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what h-e-n does is to exploit a TEST mode meant for debugging, to simulate hostmode of musb_core |
| 21:52.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas that TEST mode is lacking a lot of nicer features like automatic speed negotiation |
| 21:52.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | so now you got the whole N900 hostmode/h-e-n story in a nutshell |
| 21:56.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw I just recall there are indeed also other methods to switch musb_core to A/host state: HNP. That's what egoshin and MohammadAG originally did |
| 21:57.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas it's extremely utterly non-reliable |
| 21:58.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it involves messing around with VBUS levels (among other weird kinky stuff you need to do to successfully complete a HNP host role handover) |
| 21:59.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we finally ditched that concept and started "from scratch" targeting the TEST method |
| 22:06.23 | *** join/#maemo brzys (~quassel@77-92-38-176.cable-modem.tkk.net.pl) |
| 22:16.57 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what's HNP? |
| 22:18.01 | *** join/#maemo vi__ (~paul@87.115.180.127) |
| 22:18.05 | vi__ | freemangordon__: ping |
| 22:19.05 | vi__ | MohammadAG: ping |
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| 22:35.00 | vi__ | wtf is maemo invoker? |
| 22:35.32 | *** join/#maemo Cor-Ai (~cor-ai@212.112.62.30) |
| 22:38.11 | kerio | vi__: a launcher for gtk apps compiled in a special way |
| 22:38.18 | vi__ | FFS |
| 22:38.22 | vi__ | why ios nothing simple. |
| 22:38.23 | kerio | what? |
| 22:38.55 | vi__ | I just altered the osso-chess so it does not 'pause' the game after 30s of idle time. |
| 22:39.09 | kerio | you just have to compile it with -rdynamic i think |
| 22:39.12 | vi__ | I JUST got it to compile and it has come up with nothing but bullshit. |
| 22:39.38 | vi__ | It made a 680K binary called chessui. |
| 22:39.46 | kerio | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ns14hRqwY8 |
| 22:40.02 | vi__ | The chessui on the n900 is a symlink or some shit to maemo invoker. |
| 22:40.08 | vi__ | WTF IS THIS SHIT? |
| 22:40.13 | kerio | vi__: chessui.launch is the true "binary" |
| 22:40.38 | kerio | but it's not an elf you can launch directly, you need to launch it through maemo-invoker, it'll launch it inside a maemo-launcher instance |
| 22:40.50 | kerio | so libgtk won't be loaded a billion times |
| 22:41.37 | vi__ | so is my chessui binary need to be renamed to chessui.launcher? |
| 22:41.53 | kerio | vi__: no, you need to recompile it with an extra CFLAG i think |
| 22:42.15 | kerio | or, if you want, you can just put it instead of the symlink |
| 22:42.31 | kerio | it'll use more space and more resources though |
| 22:43.03 | vi__ | and what is the magic cflag? |
| 22:45.07 | kerio | vi__: CFLAGS -shared, LDFLAGS -shared -rdynamic |
| 22:46.50 | kerio | vi__: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs/tutorial/html/ch07.html |
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| 22:50.33 | vi__ | how do I do a clean make? |
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| 23:14.22 | FIQ | hmm |
| 23:14.40 | FIQ | these "announcements" on maemo.org homepage aren't exactly up to date |
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| 23:23.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: Host Negotiation Protocol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go#Protocols |
| 23:23.56 | kerio | i see |
| 23:28.34 | *** join/#maemo robbiethe1st (~robbiethe@71-221-196-99.spkn.qwest.net) |
| 23:45.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | the trick been like this: attach N900 to something that looks like a USB host (basically this means "provide 5V VBUS to N900, sth that can be emulated by starting bq24150 boost mode). Then run all the signal and VBUS level changes to establish a HNP role swap which in turn puts the musb_hdrc core statemachine into logical host state |
| 23:48.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | the advantages are that this is a true host state and thus provides all the nice stuff like unplug detection, speed negotiation, whatnot else. For the downside see specification of how HNP works, it's a nightmare |
| 23:50.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | for example it involves lowering VBUS to some particular voltage level (sth between 0.8V and 1.2V iirc), to drop the session but not end the connection (simplified picture). Sth we can't do with bq24150 |
| 23:50.44 | *** join/#maemo lbt_away (~david@78.32.229.233) |
| 23:50.44 | *** join/#maemo lbt_away (~david@Maemo/community/contributor/lbt) |
| 23:51.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least not reproducibly |
| 23:52.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | disclaimer: all "IIRC", it's a few years ago since I dealt with that mess |
| 23:56.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | some of those protocols' details even probed for the size of VBUS buffer capacitors in the attached "peer" device |
| 23:58.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | ADP is the king of all evil specs, it probes for parasitic capacity of the D+/- lines to detect peripherals and even dangling cables |
| 23:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1707 can't do this either |
| 23:59.14 | *** part/#maemo Aoyagi (~opera@222.18.broadband15.iol.cz) |
| 23:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically USB is FUBAR and should get binned |
| 23:59.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | motorola helped a lot to fsck it up, by introducing carkit |
