| 00:02.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: that's evidently fake photoshopped picture |
| 00:03.37 | ShadowJK | impressive stitch |
| 00:04.26 | Lava_Croft | ShadowJK: havent heard about the object they found |
| 00:04.33 | Lava_Croft | I think they agreed that it came from the microwave tho |
| 00:04.38 | ShadowJK | they found alot more of them later |
| 00:04.38 | Lava_Croft | er i mean rover |
| 00:04.41 | Lava_Croft | ah |
| 00:04.47 | ShadowJK | like, too many to be parts falling off |
| 00:04.51 | Lava_Croft | :D |
| 00:05.04 | Lava_Croft | i havent followed that anymore, was busy |
| 00:05.09 | Lava_Croft | they use social media so much |
| 00:05.22 | Lava_Croft | Its great how they post everything as if its the rover itself posting |
| 00:05.28 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer05: they're now using shiny GPU based stitchers and stuff to do this with |
| 00:07.08 | Lava_Croft | ShadowJK: the first shiny part is unrelated to later shiny parts |
| 00:07.12 | Lava_Croft | the first thing was a piece of plastic from the rover |
| 00:07.16 | Lava_Croft | later on it was different things |
| 00:07.23 | merlin1991 | anybody care to explain *how* it took the picture (of the rover) to a complete idiot? |
| 00:07.29 | SpeedEvil | bits of weather balloon |
| 00:08.12 | Lava_Croft | http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/01/article-0-15CC3FFA000005DC-759_634x498.jpg |
| 00:08.20 | Lava_Croft | thats the same portrait |
| 00:08.30 | Lava_Croft | stitched by a hobbyist |
| 00:08.53 | Lava_Croft | merlin1991: |
| 00:08.54 | Lava_Croft | The probe moved the camera to different positions in each image so the arm isn’t visible. |
| 00:08.58 | Lava_Croft | Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2226345/Curiositys-best-self-portrait-far--historic-giant-scoop-mankind.html#ixzz2B1G3C2fb |
| 00:09.01 | Lava_Croft | Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook |
| 00:09.03 | Lava_Croft | The probe moved the camera to different positions in each image so the arm isn’t visible. |
| 00:09.06 | Lava_Croft | er |
| 00:09.08 | Lava_Croft | no |
| 00:09.11 | Lava_Croft | Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2226345/Curiositys-best-self-portrait-far--historic-giant-scoop-mankind.html#ixzz2B1G3C2fb |
| 00:09.14 | Lava_Croft | Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook |
| 00:09.16 | Lava_Croft | wtfg |
| 00:09.19 | Lava_Croft | please fuck off windows clipboard |
| 00:09.25 | SpeedEvil | :-) |
| 00:09.26 | Lava_Croft | anyhow merlin1991, they took several pics from different positions |
| 00:09.30 | Lava_Croft | so that the arm is not visible |
| 00:09.40 | kerio | >the daily mail |
| 00:09.46 | Lava_Croft | i just follow google |
| 00:09.47 | kerio | wtfamireading.jpg |
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| 00:13.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: stitched several snapshots to a huge highres picture. Obviously the managed to pick those pictures that all have no sign of the arm (though I still wonder what's about the point of the rover where the arm *ends*) |
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| 00:13.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather: starts |
| 00:14.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | there *must* be some artifacts there |
| 00:15.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | since, while the hand arm could portrait the rover, still the arm can't portrait itself full length - you'll never see the camera taking the snapshots in the snapshots. So where's the stub? |
| 00:16.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | or are there two of them cameras? |
| 00:19.43 | Lava_Croft | DocScrutinizer05: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curiosity_rover#Mars_Hand_Lens_Imager_.28MAHLI.29 |
| 00:19.47 | Lava_Croft | thats used to make the portrait pics |
| 00:20.09 | Lava_Croft | mahli is the only camera on a long arm |
| 00:21.08 | Lava_Croft | DocScrutinizer05: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Curiosity_on_Mars.jpg |
| 00:21.13 | Lava_Croft | here the arm seems cut out |
| 00:21.20 | Lava_Croft | bottom middle |
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| 00:25.14 | ShadowJK | Also look in reflection in the lens in upper left on that big selfportrait pic |
| 00:25.48 | Lava_Croft | its upside down, yes |
| 00:25.53 | Lava_Croft | thats normal |
| 00:26.00 | Lava_Croft | at least, if you mean the inverted landscape |
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| 00:30.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just think they pretty nifty cut hte stiching so it doesn't show where they cut of the arm with the camera |
| 00:31.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | cut off* |
| 00:32.20 | Lava_Croft | probably, yes |
| 00:33.32 | Dragnslcr | Is there any way to stop the media player from renaming audio files? I assume it's fetching information from CDDB or FreeDB, but I don't want it renaming files that it finds matches for. |
| 00:36.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not renaming files |
| 00:36.50 | dafox | does anyone see the shadow of the arm then? |
| 00:37.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | Dragnslcr: the whole crap works quite different |
| 00:38.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | the notorious trackerd is scanning "all device" for media files and tags in there. Then buolds a SQL database from that, and this is used to show available songs/videos etc in mediaplayer |
| 00:38.49 | Dragnslcr | Well, the file manager shows them being renamed |
| 00:38.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | duh |
| 00:39.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody ever seen that before |
| 00:39.18 | Dragnslcr | So does my computer when it connects in mass storage mode |
| 00:39.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 00:39.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc who should rename files there |
| 00:39.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | my files all are untampered |
| 00:40.15 | Skry | as are mine |
| 00:40.50 | Dragnslcr | Hm, terminal shows the files with the names I gave them |
| 00:40.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all renaming media files was pretty idiocy, since on next sync your syncer would think fles are missing and would copy them over again |
| 00:40.59 | Dragnslcr | Bizarre |
| 00:41.44 | Dragnslcr | Let me check mass storage mode again |
| 00:42.16 | Dragnslcr | Okay, it looks correct from my computer now |
| 00:42.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Dragnslcr: maybe you fell for another evil pitfall: you MUST NOT try to access any files on MyDocs or uSD-card via any means on-device, as long as device is in USB mass storage mode |
| 00:43.25 | Dragnslcr | Yeah, the FIle Manager doesn't even show the SD card in mass storage mode |
| 00:43.58 | Dragnslcr | And I know I haven't gone through the terminal like that |
| 00:44.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | since MyDocs as well as /media/card needs umount to get exported, you'd access a plain dir of / or in your homedir then |
| 00:44.36 | Dragnslcr | So File Manager shows the CDDB names. I guess it looks at the metadata |
| 00:44.43 | dafox | this shows where the imager (MAHLI) is attached: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Drawing-of-the-Mars-Science_Laboratory.png |
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| 00:45.01 | dafox | looking at the picture you can see the artifacts |
| 00:45.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | soring any files there during mass storage mode would create phantom files that sue up space but never usually are visible |
| 00:45.11 | dafox | mystery solved :D |
| 00:45.12 | Dragnslcr | So I guess my question then is just how to stop the media player from fetching the info |
| 00:45.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | storing* |
| 00:46.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | Dragnslcr: there's no way to stop mediaplayer from using tracker database. there's however a plugin to access 'raw' filesystem |
| 00:47.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I never realized filemanager shows metadata for media files |
| 00:47.43 | Dragnslcr | Seems odd to me, too. That's all I can think of, though |
| 00:47.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and tbh I doubt that's the case |
| 00:49.22 | Dragnslcr | It doesn't show the same names as doing ls in the terminal |
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| 00:49.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the base dirs that's true |
| 00:50.07 | Skry | afaik neither media player or tracker "fetches" anything from anywhere but the file itself, so just delete metadata from file and you'll see just filenames |
| 00:50.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | as /home/user/MyDocs/ is shown as N900/ in filemanager |
| 00:50.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | Skry: err wut? |
| 00:50.38 | Dragnslcr | For stuff under Music, it lists the song title and artist |
| 00:50.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | filemanager? |
| 00:50.53 | Dragnslcr | Yup |
| 00:51.00 | Skry | by metadata I ment ie id3 tags |
| 00:51.19 | Dragnslcr | I don't know if Music is treated special, or if it would do it anywhere in the file system |
| 00:51.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | soory, not even a Music dir here |
| 00:52.39 | Dragnslcr | I have /media/mmc1/Music |
| 00:53.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 00:53.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think that's any standard |
| 00:53.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | since /media/mmc1 is the uSD |
| 00:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, I can confirm it shows metadata in MP3 dirs |
| 00:55.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | with a music note icon in front of them |
| 00:55.21 | Dragnslcr | I don't remember if it's always been there or if I created the directories on the SD card myself |
| 00:55.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsck filemanager |
| 00:55.34 | Dragnslcr | I've had the phone for almost 3 years |
| 00:56.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | pro-tip: use URL "file://media/mmc1/music" in browser |
| 00:56.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | or, alternatively, use a decent file manager |
| 00:57.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | not the braindamaged one that ships with maemo |
| 00:58.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | every other filemanager will allow you to visiut dirs like /etc /var whatnot else, and doesn't do nifty idiocy like the metadata stuff on media files |
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| 00:59.34 | Dragnslcr | Yeah, probably a good idea. I haven't used the file manager too much anyway. Mass storage mode and the terminal have been good enough so far |
| 00:59.53 | Dragnslcr | Skry- looks like you might be right that it reads the id3 tags |
| 01:00.11 | Skry | Dragnslcr: I am. |
| 01:00.38 | Dragnslcr | Now to change all of them |
| 01:03.50 | Skry | Dragnslcr: if you remove/change them you might need to manually set tracker to do a rescan. |
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| 01:04.36 | Skry | Not sure though, but I have a faint memory of tracked not updating on metadata change, might be wrong. |
| 01:04.58 | Dragnslcr | It looked like it picked it up right away, but I had copied a new file from my computer anyway |
| 01:05.02 | Skry | imo tracker should be killed with fire |
| 01:10.35 | Dragnslcr | Thanks for the help, all |
| 01:11.05 | Skry | np |
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| 02:19.01 | LaoLang_cool | hello, is there an app to allow in-coming calls shows caller info (company, title, etc.) in contacts database? |
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| 07:07.30 | kerio | DocScrutinizer51: another weird thing in mass storage mode is that the whole uSD is exported, even if the kernel is using a part of it |
| 07:08.25 | kerio | also good morning |
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| 07:24.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | morning |
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| 08:37.00 | fasta | How can I use the proximity sensor on the N900? |
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| 08:58.08 | fasta | nm |
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| 10:30.32 | freemangordon | vi__: did you try ramzswap? |
| 10:30.53 | jon_y | compress swap before put to disk? |
| 10:31.09 | freemangordon | no, compcache, google for it |
| 10:31.45 | user__ | freemangordon: yes. |
| 10:31.52 | vi_ | yes |
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| 10:31.58 | vi_ | it is as I suspected. |
| 10:32.05 | jon_y | ramdrive? |
| 10:32.09 | vi_ | TOTALLY FUCKING BALLA. |
| 10:32.15 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 10:32.23 | freemangordon | hmm, |
| 10:32.26 | freemangordon | balla? |
| 10:32.27 | vi_ | That means I like it very much. |
| 10:32.46 | vi_ | I am using it right now. |
| 10:32.53 | freemangordon | vi_: don't |
| 10:32.59 | vi_ | no? |
| 10:33.09 | vi_ | epic data corruption ahoy? |
| 10:33.23 | freemangordon | as soon as you run out of "free" segments in backing device you're screwed |
| 10:33.41 | freemangordon | i warned you it is POV, not something usable fo everyday usage |
| 10:33.45 | freemangordon | *POC |
| 10:34.20 | freemangordon | it is missing the part of backing device defragmentation |
| 10:35.03 | vi_ | I know |
| 10:35.21 | freemangordon | vi_: I am still not convinced that ramzswap (even with my improvements) performs better than swap on uSD |
| 10:35.24 | vi_ | I swapon/off to another partition every now and then. |
| 10:35.29 | freemangordon | aah, ok |
| 10:35.49 | vi_ | subjectivley, I am. |
| 10:36.14 | vi_ | I just discovered tmux is compiled for the n900. |
| 10:36.17 | freemangordon | see, we just don;t have powerful enough CPU to serve both (compressed) rootfs and (compressed) swap |
| 10:36.24 | freemangordon | tmux? |
| 10:36.31 | vi_ | tmux>screen |
| 10:36.35 | freemangordon | ~tmux |
| 10:36.44 | vi_ | you know gnu screen? |
| 10:36.47 | freemangordon | no |
| 10:36.52 | vi_ | holy shit |
| 10:36.57 | freemangordon | aah, ppp stuff? |
| 10:37.11 | vi_ | gnu screen is a terminal multiplexor. |
| 10:37.19 | freemangordon | hehe |
| 10:37.31 | freemangordon | what it is useful for? |
| 10:37.33 | vi_ | It allows you to run many instances of sh from a single instance of sh. |
| 10:37.55 | freemangordon | eyah, got that, just wonder what it could be used for. on n900 |
| 10:38.03 | vi_ | freemangordon: If I ssh into the n900, I can have many instances of sh through 1 putty window. |
| 10:38.20 | vi_ | It allows you to split the screen. |
| 10:38.26 | freemangordon | aah, ok |
| 10:38.31 | DocScrutinizer51 | more imprtantly it keeps your shell sessions running even when ssh connection breaks down |
| 10:38.35 | vi_ | I currently have 4 terminals running through 1 putty window. |
| 10:38.46 | vi_ | DocScrutinizer51: DONT SPOIL THE AWESOME CONCLUSION. |
| 10:38.55 | freemangordon | :D |
| 10:39.08 | DocScrutinizer51 | ooohsosorry |
| 10:39.14 | freemangordon | ok, sounds like a nice piece of SW |
| 10:39.31 | vi_ | SO right now I have irssi in the top left, a shell in the bottom left, mplayer on the top right and rtorrent on the bottom right. |
| 10:39.35 | vi_ | ALL AT ONCE. |
| 10:39.48 | vi_ | Even more... |
| 10:39.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | screen is mad useful, this new epigone though... :-S |
| 10:39.58 | vi_ | as doc was spoilerising |
| 10:40.43 | vi_ | You can detach the current session. |
| 10:40.59 | freemangordon | yeah, got it |
| 10:41.09 | freemangordon | sounds useful |
| 10:41.21 | vi_ | then continue it later from another connection/location etc. |
| 10:41.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | more like: you can reconnect to a running session |
| 10:41.40 | vi_ | freemangordon: It is like a windows manager for X! |
| 10:41.43 | vi_ | DocScrutinizer51: yeah. |
| 10:42.20 | DocScrutinizer51 | no matter why it broke down. It's not like you need to dedicatedly detach |
| 10:42.22 | vi_ | anyway gnu screen is old, obselete and riddled with code rot. |
| 10:42.48 | freemangordon | vi_: anyway, back to ramzswap - I need someone to convince me it makes sense to finish what's been started |
| 10:42.50 | vi_ | tmux is the new kid on the block, it is like gnu screen XL EDITION. |
| 10:43.06 | vi_ | freemangordon: How about a free n950? |
| 10:43.10 | freemangordon | hehe |
| 10:43.27 | DocScrutinizer51 | meh,screen got invented and still is maintained by guys from a university18km from my home :-D |
| 10:43.35 | vi_ | DocScrutinizer51: Is it? |
| 10:43.43 | DocScrutinizer51 | afaik |
| 10:43.46 | freemangordon | naah, I am talking about rationale |
| 10:44.11 | freemangordon | I *feel* my device performs worse with ramzswap on |
| 10:44.22 | DocScrutinizer51 | tmux is braindamaged, since it keeps your mobile device busy |
| 10:44.27 | DocScrutinizer51 | battery killer |
| 10:44.43 | vi_ | DocScrutinizer51: I will need to check that. |
| 10:44.49 | freemangordon | and all that come from compression |
| 10:45.08 | vi_ | freemangordon: Is it possible to use a 'lighter' compression algo? |
| 10:45.30 | vi_ | or emphasise performance over compression ratio? |
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| 10:45.46 | freemangordon | i don;t think it matters, as it should happen in "real time" |
| 10:46.12 | freemangordon | BTW I would like to hear ShadowJK's thoughts on that, he tried it too |
| 10:46.44 | DocScrutinizer51 | you nice bunch with your intriguing topics make me ponder extending my break for another cig |
| 10:47.02 | freemangordon | vi_: and usually we need pages swapped in the same time we read rootfs |
| 10:47.36 | vi_ | is it possible to not use compression on root? |
| 10:47.48 | freemangordon | sure |
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| 10:48.06 | vi_ | obviously have to evict a load of stuff. |
| 10:48.17 | vi_ | There was also some guy... |
| 10:48.37 | vi_ | ruskie perhaps who created the move root to emmc and boot from there script. |
| 10:48.46 | freemangordon | well, I think lots of stuff can be moved to /opt, but that's not the point |
| 10:50.10 | vi_ | I mean to create space on root so that compression does not need to be used. |
| 10:54.59 | DocScrutinizer51 | optify shite! |
| 10:55.29 | freemangordon | I think the best that could be done is to just make an optimized swap. with no compression at all |
| 10:56.03 | DocScrutinizer51 | vi_: I think optification mainly been driven by lcuk |
| 10:56.19 | freemangordon | vi_: compression (on rootfs) does not depend on amount of free space |
| 10:56.33 | freemangordon | *the amount |
| 10:57.02 | vi_ | freemangordon: yes, however if you remove compression, the contents of root will 'grow'. |
| 10:57.08 | DocScrutinizer51 | there's still a whole lotta cruft to optify. Let's see who's tackling it |
| 10:57.14 | freemangordon | of course it will |
| 10:57.24 | freemangordon | again, that's not the point |
| 10:57.37 | vi_ | DocScrutinizer51: I self optify all the time. Symlink shit all over the place. |
| 10:58.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | check out optification jobs |
| 10:58.12 | freemangordon | swap compression will alaways lead to CPU load. Usually at the same moment you need that CPU to do other stuff |
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| 10:58.31 | freemangordon | like rendering or something |
| 10:58.44 | vi_ | yes |
| 10:59.17 | freemangordon | *if* we have 2 1GHz cores we can afford that |
| 10:59.25 | freemangordon | but we don;t :D |
| 10:59.45 | freemangordon | this is why I think ramzswap (with compression) is a dead end |
| 11:00.23 | DocScrutinizer51 | maemo-optify-auto-opt.sh |
| 11:00.48 | DocScrutinizer51 | vi_: ^ |
| 11:00.56 | ShadowJK | on the other hand, cpu might be sitting idle waiting to be fed with data too |
| 11:01.04 | DocScrutinizer51 | maemo-optify-* |
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| 11:01.54 | freemangordon | ShadowJK: sure. But usually swap writes happen on aplication startup |
| 11:02.11 | freemangordon | or when switching between mmory hungry apps |
| 11:02.19 | vi_ | freemangordon: Or switching some very heavy windows surely. |
| 11:02.43 | vi_ | In the latter case, rootfs interaction is minimal. |
| 11:02.53 | freemangordon | exactly |
| 11:03.09 | freemangordon | but you still have stutter because of ramzswap |
| 11:03.28 | freemangordon | as CPU is needed by the heavy app AND swap |
| 11:04.07 | freemangordon | and that annot be solved by putting pages in workqueue to be compressed later as we don;t have enough RAM |
| 11:05.51 | freemangordon | wonders why he cannot press ', but types ; every time |
| 11:06.13 | freemangordon | aah, yes, I am C coder :D |
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| 11:35.35 | vi_ | freemangordon: Did you manage to install debian yet? |
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| 11:51.44 | lardman | hmm, I see WP8 adds a feature called a "Lens" to allow apps to be embedded within the Camera app, that would have been handy on Maemo & Harmattan |
| 11:52.15 | jon_y | lardman: you mean opencv? |
| 11:52.30 | lardman | http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windowsphone/develop/jj206990(v=vs.105).aspx |
| 11:52.34 | freemangordon | vi_: no, didn't have time to play with it |
| 11:52.41 | jon_y | has been around forever, though no GUI for it |
| 11:52.46 | lardman | no, a way of expanding the camera app |
| 11:53.11 | lardman | rather than needing to replace it wholesale |
| 11:53.12 | freemangordon | vi_: I managed to install ubuntu, but ati cosed source driver does not work |
| 11:53.13 | vi_ | hey dawg I heard u like apps so we embedded an app in an app so you can ignore what you are doing while you are doing it. |
| 11:53.27 | jon_y | it's not really different, with plugins/filters whatever you call them |
| 11:53.37 | vi_ | lardman: It has been replaced, see camera-ui2 |
| 11:53.42 | freemangordon | s/cosed/closed/ |
| 11:53.45 | vi_ | freemangordon: well damn. |
| 11:54.03 | freemangordon | that's 64 bit, didn't try 32bit |
| 11:54.14 | vi_ | I just installed debian on a system some 2 days ago, took me 30mins+installation of closed source junk. |
| 11:54.24 | lardman | jon_y: it's the integration rather than the backend that I'm talking about here - re backends it will be good to finally get GPUs with OpenCL support, sometime.... |
| 11:54.27 | jon_y | yo dawg, we heard you like apps so we put an app in your app so you can app while you app |
| 11:54.53 | freemangordon | vi_: it took me ages to find that it is ACPI HPET that causes nstaller to hang |
| 11:54.59 | vi_ | freemangordon: How do you run scratchbox then? |
| 11:55.06 | freemangordon | in vmware |
| 11:55.12 | jon_y | integration/backend, its the same, just depending on which direction you look |
| 11:55.15 | lardman | vi_: yes, just a shame Nokia didn't listen to us and provide Camera app expansion earlier in the product lifecycle |
| 11:55.29 | vi_ | lardman: It is just a shame doesnt listen. |
| 11:56.14 | SpeedEvil | the camera app expansion is not where I'd have liked the listening to be :-) |
| 11:56.15 | freemangordon | vi_: I'll give debian a shot again, just not soon, there is more interesting things to do ;) |
| 11:56.16 | lardman | jon_y: hmm, not sure about that; the integration issue was present all over the shop and basically due to the closed apps |
| 11:56.38 | vi_ | freemangordon: My advice is 32bit debian testing. |
| 11:56.43 | freemangordon | vi_: like kernel in CSSU and such |
| 11:56.49 | freemangordon | vi_: yeah, I know |
| 11:56.49 | jon_y | camera is at /dev/video or something |
| 11:56.52 | vi_ | freemangordon: YEEAAAHHH!!!! |
| 11:56.57 | lardman | closed is fine as long as there are apis to allow expansion/addition of features, providers, consumers, etc. That's the point of the Lenses thing just too late for us |
| 11:57.01 | freemangordon | vi_: see :P |
| 11:57.33 | jon_y | heh, C++14 |
| 11:57.37 | vi_ | I only have windos so I can play some games. |
| 11:57.57 | lardman | SpeedEvil: I realise there were many other problems, but this was something we discussed in Amsterdam, which is a long long time ago |
| 11:58.07 | SpeedEvil | :-) |
| 11:58.23 | SpeedEvil | and yeah, I know. |
| 11:58.35 | SpeedEvil | Jolla will save us! |
| 11:58.43 | vi_ | jolla... |
| 11:59.02 | lardman | From what I've read it will also have a closed UI, so it will presumably present the same challenges |
| 11:59.17 | lardman | let's hope they listen better! :) |
| 11:59.22 | SpeedEvil | there are confusing noises about that. |
| 11:59.23 | vi_ | off course jolla will save us, they have produced more devices than tizen+meego+moblin combined! |
| 11:59.37 | SpeedEvil | closed can mean something like harmattan |
| 12:00.00 | SpeedEvil | or it can mean 'non GPL' open source, without the right to use commercially |
| 12:00.05 | freemangordon | that would be shame |
| 12:00.08 | vi_ | swipy swipy SWIPE. |
| 12:00.13 | vi_ | BUT IT HAZ SWIPE. |
| 12:00.20 | lardman | SpeedEvil: sure, I forgot about the latter |
| 12:00.44 | lardman | I fear it will be closed source though as otherwise it's probably hard to monetise it |
| 12:00.54 | SpeedEvil | the latter, with the ability to buy licences would be most awesome |
| 12:01.04 | vi_ | lardman: and therein lies the problem with OSS. |
| 12:01.11 | lardman | vi_: +1 |
| 12:01.26 | lardman | SpeedEvil: even the former with decent expansion apis would be fine, got to start somewhere |
| 12:01.36 | SpeedEvil | very true |
| 12:01.58 | SpeedEvil | even just rolling back to the state of harmattan would be an improvement |
| 12:02.03 | vi_ | Google have half managed it. There income does not come from selling/maintaining their OS. |
| 12:02.06 | lardman | Harmattan was not too bad from that point of view, shame they pulled the plug effectively making it pointless to develop for the platform |
| 12:02.20 | vi_ | ^teir |
| 12:02.23 | vi_ | ^their |
| 12:02.47 | lardman | vi_: But Jolla need something to pay the bills, Google have their advertisiing revenue |
| 12:02.56 | vi_ | exactly. |
| 12:03.08 | SpeedEvil | vi_: 'first win the lottery' approach to financial planning. |
| 12:03.13 | lardman | s/advertising/ads+services |
| 12:03.28 | vi_ | People will not release software for your platform if users can just pirate it by emailing it to each other. |
| 12:03.49 | lardman | they will if it's free software |
| 12:03.57 | SpeedEvil | to a degree |
| 12:04.23 | SpeedEvil | the infrastructure needs to be friendly though |
| 12:04.34 | lardman | my interest is in developing something that is useful to me and others, and investing time I want to be sure that what I write will be able to run on something in the future without too much messing around |
| 12:05.11 | lardman | but we all know this, it's the same for everyone who's not releasing commercial sw |
| 12:05.16 | SpeedEvil | and then there are fun issues |
| 12:05.45 | SpeedEvil | like, an android 'wine' layer would make your phone more saleanke |
| 12:05.50 | SpeedEvil | saleable |
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| 12:06.01 | SpeedEvil | but screw native app developers |
| 12:07.03 | lardman | I'm on the fence about that, I think it would be good to provide lots of apps up front to get people using the platform |
| 12:07.27 | lardman | I suppose no-one would bother developing natively then as they could target two platforms at once |
| 12:08.00 | lardman | though presumably the native stuff would have better integration, and generally be better once written, which gives some motivation to write stuff |
| 12:09.27 | SpeedEvil | only other hope is bounties, and spaying devices around developers like confetti |
| 12:09.32 | SpeedEvil | spray |
| 12:10.01 | lardman | Which is what Nokia did with WP7, and that wasn't overly successful |
| 12:10.08 | SpeedEvil | well, or in-house |
| 12:10.11 | SpeedEvil | indeed |
| 12:10.37 | SpeedEvil | or even an in house porting process for compatible apps |
| 12:10.46 | SpeedEvil | they are GPL after all |
| 12:11.54 | lardman | I wonder if lots of apps are actually necessary, perhaps it would work better targetted at power users to being with, accept that you don't have 10 million apps to download but that you can write stuff |
| 12:12.04 | lardman | i.e. similar strategy to the N900 |
| 12:12.33 | ShadowJK | 10 million apps, and none of them do what i want |
| 12:12.46 | lardman | ShadowJK: I know that feeling! |
| 12:13.59 | SpeedEvil | I have not found a usabke cad app on android that works with fingers |
| 12:14.33 | SpeedEvil | there are eleven billion 'my drawing programming let's you use a kitten as a brush' |
| 12:14.51 | lardman | lol |
| 12:15.25 | lardman | The offerings on the Psion 3/5 were better in that regard, some quite technically good apps available |
| 12:15.49 | lardman | Probably the stability of the OPL language helped with that |
| 12:16.23 | lardman | and the demographic of the people using them |
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| 12:17.13 | SpeedEvil | it's kinda depressing when the original palm beats it in some ways |
| 12:17.48 | vi_ | the majority of android appz are bodges, kludges and workarounds. |
| 12:18.23 | lardman | I wonder if there are actually a core of really good apps there somewhere, hidden by the huge number of things in the Market |
| 12:18.46 | jon_y | yes, the one that lets you put debian on it :) |
| 12:19.01 | jon_y | makes vi usable on a touch screen :) |
| 12:19.27 | lardman | but then we come back to the problem of a lack of apps that are actually useful on a small touchscreen |
| 12:19.56 | lardman | E.g. running Ubuntu even on a 7" screen is terrible |
| 12:20.11 | lardman | Not the desktop but the apps themselves |
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| 12:30.47 | SpeedEvil | lardman: I've found searching for GPL in the market gives very different results |
| 12:32.11 | lardman | I tend to search for those with a git repo :) |
| 12:34.14 | vi_ | :q |
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| 12:44.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | hi lardman ! |
| 12:44.21 | lardman | hey Doc |
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| 12:48.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | lardman: alas it turns out the API of closed stuff always lacking elementary features and according to that strip linked in ~aegis: Nobody can *fix* it |
| 12:48.42 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~aegis |
| 12:48.42 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 12:49.23 | lardman | DocScrutinizer51: which means one also needs the second step, for the developers of the closed parts to listen to the people using the APIs |
| 12:50.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | hat's mainly a problem of schedules and culture in industry |
| 12:50.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | that* |
| 12:50.41 | lardman | sure |
| 12:51.12 | lardman | I suppose if the software will be continually used though, not just thrown away while the next thing is developed to replace it, there might be a better chance |
| 12:51.23 | lardman | of course it all being open source would be far better |
| 12:52.07 | DocScrutinizer51 | look at fremantle vs harmattan |
| 12:52.54 | jon_y | debian forever! :) |
| 12:52.59 | DocScrutinizer51 | how much of stuff in fremantle got fixed, how much been binned and replaced in harm |
| 12:53.18 | lardman | that's a fundamental problem though of changing direction |
| 12:53.29 | lardman | for the second time |
| 12:53.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | manufs never *use* their own dogfood |
| 12:55.17 | DocScrutinizer51 | usually when field feedback comes in, your inhouse knowhow already retired or died |
| 12:56.13 | jon_y | all that TIMETOMARKET and CYCLETIME actually has downsides, who'd thunk? |
| 12:56.39 | DocScrutinizer51 | yeah |
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| 12:57.22 | jon_y | oh, and agile for programmers is nothing more than an excuse for being lazy in coding and long term planning |
| 12:57.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | TTM=2years, cycle/lifetime=6months |
| 12:58.35 | DocScrutinizer51 | means you usually got 4 products in the pipe |
| 12:58.43 | DocScrutinizer51 | with 4 teams |
| 12:59.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | once a team rolls out their product, they immediately switch to product-v+4 |
| 13:00.13 | jon_y | product support also suck |
| 13:00.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | obviously |
| 13:00.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | as a reult of all this |
| 13:02.01 | DocScrutinizer51 | the alternative are longterm stable industry platforms which are available and supported for several years and cost like 10* the consumer product |
| 13:02.12 | lardman | presumably if they use the same sw then fixes will be rolled in for the following products though |
| 13:02.39 | jon_y | see workstations, they last two times longer but cost 4 times more :( |
| 13:05.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | lardman: you been around at #openmoko back when? Or did we 'meet' here first? |
| 13:06.10 | lardman | DocScrutinizer51: Probably met here, I came from the Zaurus to the 770, and that was around the time OpenMoko was starting iirc |
| 13:06.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | yep |
| 13:10.30 | DocScrutinizer51 | well, lunch break over, bbl |
| 13:10.43 | lardman | cu later |
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| 20:58.11 | vi_ | I have just introduced mrs vi_ to portal. |
| 20:58.55 | vi_ | for a soon to be dr of synthetic biology, she is hopeless at solving puzzles in a virtual 3d environment. |
| 21:39.56 | SpeedEvil | :-) |
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| 22:17.13 | MrPingu | Anybody knows a typing-game like 10fastfingers.com? |
| 22:17.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | vi_: start with lemmings or Numptyphysics |
| 22:18.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | err wait, in our world that's pingus |
| 22:19.06 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-92-18-187-237.as13285.net) |
| 22:19.09 | MrPingu | It used to work good on microB but now it they changed to website to a much heavier version |
| 22:19.42 | MrPingu | Lemmings works good on dosbox + ext mouse through hostmode and tvout :) |
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| 22:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game) vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingus ;-D |
| 22:26.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | awesome improvement on a 8*8 pixel animation :-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lemming_animation.gif |
| 22:28.24 | MrPingu | Besides, anybody noticed google stopped providing special-maemo search results |
| 22:28.50 | MrPingu | Now it redirects to the full google :( |
| 22:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
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| 22:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already forgot they ever did |
| 22:32.18 | MrPingu | Well it's for some time already but I don't like it |
| 22:32.32 | MrPingu | takes longer to load |
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| 22:48.21 | MrPingu | awh only 29 WPM on N900 |
| 22:48.36 | MrPingu | http://www.wordsperminutetest.com/ |
| 22:49.46 | vi_ | try it with OSK. |
| 22:51.35 | SpeedEvil | :-) |
| 22:52.45 | MrPingu | http://www.speedtypingonline.com/typing-test |
| 22:52.49 | MrPingu | 57 wpm |
| 22:53.15 | MrPingu | I miss the old 10fastfingers, it was very compatible with microB :( |
| 22:53.25 | MrPingu | No OSK sucks :P |
| 22:56.33 | vi_ | wtf is debootstrap? |
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| 23:00.46 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, lemmings can be used for simulation of KMP :D |
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| 23:01.38 | deepy\SIGSEGV | kerio: I need you! |
| 23:02.07 | vi | SAID NOBODY EVER. |
| 23:02.50 | deepy\SIGSEGV | It's a case of logarithms and python |
| 23:03.00 | deepy\SIGSEGV | I'm accepting substitutes since vi's outburst |
| 23:03.23 | vi | substituts for logirithms? |
| 23:03.32 | deepy\SIGSEGV | vi: also, debootstrap is awesome, it deploys a debian base system into a directory of your choice |
| 23:04.07 | vi | gtg |
| 23:04.08 | vi | bb |
| 23:04.10 | vi | :q |
| 23:04.11 | deepy\SIGSEGV | vi: http://dpaste.org/20iE5/ I have that and I am 90% sure it works |
| 23:04.16 | deepy\SIGSEGV | ciao |
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| 23:32.12 | kerio | deepy\SIGSEGV: ohai |
| 23:32.43 | kerio | deepy\SIGSEGV: you fail so hard D: |
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| 23:33.26 | deepy\SIGSEGV | kerio: yes I do |
| 23:33.33 | deepy\SIGSEGV | I don't know math :D |
| 23:34.23 | deepy\SIGSEGV | So I take it, it's not working? |
| 23:35.06 | kerio | it's... nonsensical |
| 23:35.17 | kerio | also use math.log |
| 23:35.48 | kerio | why b-1 if the result isn't exact? |
| 23:35.53 | *** join/#maemo brzys (~brzys@86-63-126-137.sta.asta-net.com.pl) |
| 23:36.10 | deepy\SIGSEGV | kerio: I'm not allowed to use math.log |
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| 23:37.04 | deepy\SIGSEGV | also, shouldn't it return 0 if the result is too small? |
| 23:38.19 | kerio | it's a fucking logarithm |
| 23:38.28 | kerio | chances are, it's not going to be an integer |
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| 23:39.55 | deepy\SIGSEGV | kerio: that's one of the critera, it's an integer |
| 23:40.04 | deepy\SIGSEGV | x and b are both positive integers |
| 23:40.26 | kerio | you fail *so* hard |
| 23:41.40 | kerio | log_4(2) = 0.5 |
| 23:42.55 | deepy\SIGSEGV | oh, it doens't say that output has to be integers |
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