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| 00:04.30 | DocScrutinizer | anyway pairing a (possibly slightly 'tuned') 32GB controller with a 2 or 4 GB flash seems just too simple to not get done eventually |
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| 00:05.00 | DocScrutinizer | bad block management will easily cope with the missing storage |
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| 00:53.53 | ShadowJK | bad block management mostly doesn't exist ime :/ |
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| 01:06.25 | DocScrutinizer | you don't think bad pages are marked as bad somewhere, and won't get used anymore? |
| 01:07.37 | DocScrutinizer | I'd guess that would drastically complicate and make expensive any working uSD |
| 01:09.50 | DocScrutinizer | aiui controllers are built in a way they detect and 'discard' and bad pages, and thus by mere over-providing of storage manufacturers make sure their cards will work with the advertised capacity, even while _usually_ some pages on flash chip are defect |
| 01:10.02 | DocScrutinizer | the huge difference between NAND and NOR |
| 01:10.31 | DocScrutinizer | s/and bad/any bad/ |
| 01:12.11 | DocScrutinizer | much the same way modern HDD do the same |
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| 01:14.36 | DocScrutinizer | though those still use a direct geometrical (or linear) mapping of blocks, and only remap bad blocks. While a uSD is juggling good pages all around, if only for wear leveling. This wear leveling will probably tag and discard and not use any further any bad page it detects, as anything else seems silly |
| 01:17.58 | DocScrutinizer | well, you're probably right when you take my term "block" literally |
| 01:18.26 | DocScrutinizer | of course that mapping and tagging will work on nothing smaller than a whole erase page |
| 01:20.35 | DocScrutinizer | of course I also heard of those cases where card just starts to malfunction as soon as all spare pages got used up |
| 01:22.48 | DocScrutinizer | but I'd rather guess that's only happening when you actually try to fill up the whole nominal storage capacity of the card with data, which obviously can't work anymore when the controller runs out of spare pages to use for both wear leveling and substitution of defect pages |
| 01:24.07 | DocScrutinizer | depending on smartness of controller algo devels |
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| 01:47.23 | ShadowJK | Last person that investigated the low level details concluded there's about 2% reserve pages, and the wear leveling is accidental side effect of something else, and bad block replacement only works within 1000 page chunks |
| 01:48.00 | ShadowJK | i.e. first 800M gets 40M spare, once that spare is used up the device pretty much dies even if there was otherwise lots spare left elsewhere ond evice |
| 01:50.32 | ShadowJK | finds a 4G C10 Transcend.. |
| 01:50.38 | ShadowJK | I wonder why this is not in my spreadsheet |
| 01:50.49 | ShadowJK | maybe I started benchmarks and got pissed off at it or osmething.. |
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| 02:29.01 | DocScrutinizer | aah, ok, then bad block management is probably irrelevant for faking higher capacities |
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| 02:44.40 | kwtm2 | weeps. Just verified that 2 out of my four Official Nokia BL-5J batteries (with hologram) are bricked. :P |
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| 02:45.32 | Hurrian | DocScrutinizer, depends on how fake cards do it |
| 02:45.58 | Macer | i'll be damned |
| 02:46.03 | Hurrian | some do it via corrupt partition table, others via special controller |
| 02:46.08 | Macer | my k45 mboard that died a while back has bad caps |
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| 02:47.09 | Macer | 4 of them are bulging |
| 02:50.52 | kwtm2 | bulging means near end of life? Similar to rechargeable cellphone batteries? |
| 02:51.43 | Macer | well.. the board won't turn on anymore ;) |
| 02:51.48 | Macer | so i'm guessing that most of them are broken |
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| 02:52.15 | Macer | it has like 7 bad caps |
| 02:52.20 | Macer | oh wait... missed one.. 8 heh |
| 02:52.30 | Macer | wonder if i can buy some new ones at radio shack |
| 02:52.40 | Macer | does radio shack even sell those types of things anymore? |
| 02:53.21 | Macer | what is odd is that i actually bought 2 of these within like 3 weeks of one another.. one of them works grat |
| 02:53.50 | ShadowJK | kwtm2, bulging means broken |
| 02:54.35 | Macer | made in china :-P |
| 02:54.50 | Macer | i need to find some capacitors and a soldering iron |
| 02:56.42 | ShadowJK | I've been meaning to solder a broken gigabit 8 port switch |
| 02:56.56 | ShadowJK | I ordered caps, but hten found other use for them, heh. |
| 02:57.13 | ShadowJK | The caps on the board are underspecced according to their label |
| 02:58.11 | Macer | heh |
| 02:58.57 | Macer | the group of caps that are broken are rated all the same |
| 02:59.05 | Macer | they are the same type of cap |
| 02:59.16 | Macer | it's a shuttle k45 board |
| 02:59.46 | Macer | there were people winding up with like 8/10 shuttles dying |
| 02:59.50 | Macer | beause of the caps |
| 02:59.54 | kwtm2 | ShadowJK: I see. Same principle as bulging batteries on cell phones, or not related? Does bulging mean internal explosion? |
| 03:00.18 | ShadowJK | I think the process is different |
| 03:00.20 | ShadowJK | maybe |
| 03:01.08 | Macer | blah i have to go see about getting the stuff for this |
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| 03:02.05 | Macer | http://us.shuttle.com/scgforum/tm.aspx?m=3212 |
| 03:02.19 | Macer | that's the same exact problem mine had ;) |
| 03:04.05 | Macer | the 1800uF/6.3v ones are bulging heh |
| 03:06.54 | Macer | cobalt-60 found on petco dog bowls |
| 03:06.58 | Macer | wtf are these chinese doing?? lol! |
| 03:11.11 | Macer | http://www.filmcapacitors.com/SeriesMF1206 |
| 03:11.20 | Macer | i'm guessing that place won't sell me 6 caps huh? :) |
| 03:11.53 | Macer | ShadowJK: what is a place to get good high quality caps? |
| 03:12.04 | Macer | bonus points if you can find me caps made in the US :) |
| 03:14.31 | ShadowJK | I don't think there are any |
| 03:14.48 | ShadowJK | (any US production of capacitors) |
| 03:16.14 | ShadowJK | But like, uh, rubycon and Nichicon? |
| 03:19.46 | ShadowJK | digikey mouser or whatever |
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| 03:39.06 | Macer | friend of mine is going to order me some when he orders parts for work |
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| 03:39.33 | Macer | so i can just wait on those... lol.. but yeah.. finding us made caps would be impossible |
| 03:39.42 | Macer | he said some place in ohio makes them still |
| 03:39.51 | Macer | all US caps are like... special order bulk orders only |
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| 04:13.25 | ShadowJK | This isn't limited to just capacitors |
| 04:14.11 | ShadowJK | Just about anything is so much easier to get from asia than from the us |
| 04:16.01 | ShadowJK | Like, I know some things where a US company designed something to be manufactured in china, and actually has good enough control of the factory in china, the product gets shipped right away to usa, but it's easier and cheaper to have it shipped back to china and sold from china |
| 04:16.12 | ShadowJK | than to try do business with the us company |
| 04:16.15 | ShadowJK | heh |
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| 04:17.24 | ShadowJK | except if you live in the us, that is |
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| 05:07.44 | Macer | ShadowJK: yeah that sucks |
| 05:07.48 | Macer | that's most places now |
| 05:08.28 | Macer | but every now and then you find some company that is actually in the united states |
| 05:08.31 | Macer | lol |
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| 05:12.48 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, feel silly continuing this topic, but re IRc and referendum - you're wrong, as usual. While I agree that it would be idiotic idea - and I used it as comparision - actually, chan imperator is working closely with Council, so TMO could - following your twisted logic - make referendum to have Council ask X-Fade about removing You frokm chanop |
| 05:12.58 | Estel_ | and X-fade would do that, per Council request |
| 05:13.26 | Estel_ | again, it's just "mind experiment" don't worry, it was just about showing how You pivot rules to your liking, in my humble opinion, which you have, of course, right to not agree. |
| 05:14.10 | Estel_ | If You think that referendum can be used to remove volunteers form volunteering, it can be used to make anything. It's kinda wrong, as AFAIk, referendum is something started by Council, to see if poeople support some dieas or not. |
| 05:14.40 | Estel_ | after all, council doesn't do anything alone, cause it's not fuckin goverment, despite fact, that almsot everyone is trying to apply political filters. |
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| 05:15.18 | Estel_ | i.e. Council can say "we're doing this and that", but without other volunteers wanting to do that, Council can kiss own ass, if manage to. |
| 05:15.31 | Estel_ | it's all about collaboration. |
| 05:16.39 | Estel_ | due mtot his reason, applying copy& paste from real-world goverments and politics is stupid. Not to mention, that even in real life, You have election every 4-5 years, and goverment can't be forced to go away (in legal ways, not by guns ;) ) even if have only 1% of support |
| 05:17.25 | Estel_ | fortunately, despite how You see it, maemo is also absed on meritocracy. Fact that we have election of *volunteers* doesn't mean it becomes political. |
| 05:18.02 | Estel_ | anyway, whatever, I'm sure that You won't agree, and everyone have better things to do, so... :) |
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| 05:35.36 | Macer | the woman who plays targaryen in game of thrones is way hotter as a blonde |
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| 05:56.30 | Estel_ | Macer, You're talking about it for week already, have You feel into platonical love, or what? |
| 05:56.37 | Estel_ | Better tell me how cooking N900 in oven went |
| 05:56.46 | Macer | oh... damn. i totally forgot all about that heh |
| 05:56.55 | Estel_ | I knew that. phew. |
| 05:57.06 | kwtm2 | Am about to flash my N900. Remind me again: I only use the -R flag on the second of the two operations (1. flashing firmware and 2. flashing eMMC) whichever is done last, right? THe page at http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#Linux is unclear. |
| 05:58.09 | kwtm2 | seen alex |
| 05:58.13 | Macer | Estel_: i was working on getting some caps for a mboard with bad caps |
| 05:58.14 | Macer | heh |
| 05:58.23 | Macer | 6 of 8 of them are bulging |
| 05:58.56 | Estel_ | kwtm2, You flash emmc first witohut reboot, then, rootfs |
| 05:59.04 | Estel_ | if You feel masochistc, You may do other way around |
| 05:59.15 | Estel_ | no gain, and every accidentla reboot kills Your integrity |
| 05:59.33 | Estel_ | emmc first without r and disabling it after by removing battery + flashing rootfs with -R later is best way |
| 05:59.44 | Estel_ | Macer, well, caps happen :) |
| 06:00.21 | Macer | it's an older shuttle k45 |
| 06:00.29 | Macer | they were notorious for it |
| 06:00.59 | Macer | i bought another one like 3 weeks after the first one and it is still working like a champ... the first one must have gotten the fake black market caps |
| 06:01.39 | Estel_ | or just bad luck :) |
| 06:01.39 | Macer | my buddy is getting me some new ones from his job... they are pretty easy to replace |
| 06:02.07 | Estel_ | lovely times before everything got made for robots only, eh? |
| 06:02.37 | Macer | well... caps are rather large.. somewhat difficult to not make them easy to replace |
| 06:02.52 | Macer | K45s were awesome tho |
| 06:02.59 | Macer | when the caps didn't explode :-P |
| 06:03.08 | Estel_ | Don't underrate invention of designers :P |
| 06:04.00 | Estel_ | You will see, when we will start to have caps with balls soldering ;) |
| 06:04.11 | Estel_ | just for the sake of it. |
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| 06:32.59 | kwtm2 | thx Estel_ |
| 06:33.41 | kwtm2 | ok wait... |
| 06:33.53 | kwtm2 | is rootfs firmeware, then? |
| 06:34.28 | kwtm2 | s/firmeware/firmware/ |
| 06:35.08 | kwtm2 | is the -R flag for rebooting, then? |
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| 06:39.27 | kwtm2 | once I failed to be able to flash firmware, causing problems that have plagued me to this day. That was the most recent time (although I had flashed it half a dozen times prior to that, some time before). Hope it works this time. |
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| 06:45.04 | Estel_ | kwtm2, yea |
| 06:45.11 | Estel_ | emmC is just partition layout of eMMC |
| 06:45.16 | kwtm2 | Okay, failed again. Says "missing image". I wonder about a number of things that are unclear on the wiki. |
| 06:45.18 | Estel_ | rootfs is... rootfs:p |
| 06:45.35 | Estel_ | in fact, nothing is uncleare there, it seems that you're missinterpreting something. Lets try to work through it |
| 06:45.38 | kwtm2 | Estel_: I see that I have 2 files. (This is from when I flashed a long time ago) |
| 06:45.50 | Estel_ | first of all - if You use flasher without any arguments, it will show you list of options and meanings |
| 06:45.53 | kwtm2 | My two files are called EMMC and FIRMWARE. So rootfs would be part of the firmware? |
| 06:46.01 | Estel_ | yes. |
| 06:46.21 | Estel_ | RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 06:46.22 | kwtm2 | Also, the unclear part: after the flasher exits, is the N900 supposed to sit there unmoving? |
| 06:46.28 | Estel_ | ^^^ vanilla eMMc. you don't need it, most of the times. |
| 06:46.40 | Estel_ | wait, wait, first things first |
| 06:46.49 | kwtm2 | ok. Pls go ahead. |
| 06:46.50 | Estel_ | RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin |
| 06:46.57 | Estel_ | ^^^ FIASCO image |
| 06:47.02 | Estel_ | containing many trhings for rootfs |
| 06:47.04 | Estel_ | things* |
| 06:47.09 | Estel_ | aka combined |
| 06:47.40 | Estel_ | now, You just do as per wiki - if You want to flash with eMMC image restoration, you feed it by that image... |
| 06:47.53 | Estel_ | flasher-3.5 -F RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin -f |
| 06:48.00 | Estel_ | first, big -F is about "file" |
| 06:48.03 | Estel_ | it must be path to file |
| 06:48.14 | Estel_ | it depends on system, etc, but it's either relativer or absolute path |
| 06:48.23 | Estel_ | then, -f is "flash" |
| 06:48.42 | Estel_ | or other way around, maybe I've messed upercase and lowercase f - in any case, od as it is in wiki :) |
| 06:48.55 | kwtm2 | The unclear part is some things that I wonder about as a noob, about which I would like reassurance. Maybe it's just that I need something from my perspective as someone who may possibly brick my n900. :) |
| 06:49.00 | Estel_ | so, you flash eMMC, and then, when it reports that I've finished with success, You remove battery from N900 |
| 06:49.11 | Estel_ | I see. |
| 06:49.17 | Estel_ | so, you don't remove cable, etc, just battery |
| 06:49.28 | luke-jr | … |
| 06:49.32 | Estel_ | after that, You may remove cable if You feel it fancy, then You feed flasher with COMBINED |
| 06:49.46 | kwtm2 | Well, the wiki says "you MAY have to remove battery" but it doesn't say you should, and previously I didn't remove battery. So it's not so much that I don't understand the wiki as that there is conflicting info. |
| 06:49.48 | luke-jr | if you don't remove the cable, removing the battery doesn't really do anything |
| 06:50.08 | luke-jr | in my experience |
| 06:50.12 | Estel_ | luke-jr, true, i just said to remove batteyr first. On second though, it doesn't matter |
| 06:50.23 | Estel_ | kwtm2, it's because you may disable N90 0by other means than removing battery |
| 06:50.30 | Estel_ | but it's said in wiki, that You must not allow it to reboot |
| 06:50.33 | Estel_ | after eMMC flash |
| 06:50.39 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 06:50.42 | Estel_ | then Yo0u feed flasher with |
| 06:51.00 | Estel_ | flasher-3.5 -F RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R |
| 06:51.09 | Estel_ | just watch uper and lwoer case f, i may have mixed them |
| 06:51.13 | Estel_ | againt, first one is file |
| 06:51.18 | kwtm2 | I see. So after eMMC flash I *must* disable N900 somehow, e.g. removing the battery... I cannot just continue automatically with flashing firmware. |
| 06:51.18 | Estel_ | then, "flash" command |
| 06:51.21 | Estel_ | and last is reboot |
| 06:51.31 | Estel_ | You may ommit the -r command, and reboot Yourself, but it's more conveinent |
| 06:51.37 | Estel_ | yes. |
| 06:51.42 | kwtm2 | Estel_: I do have the commands in a bash script that I wisely wrote when I first learned to flash. |
| 06:52.01 | Estel_ | if N900 reboots between eMMC and COMBINED, your flashing gone fubar. |
| 06:52.10 | kwtm2 | Ok, another thing that is unclear is... how do I reboot? the power button doesn't do anything, and I don't know what's supposed to happen. |
| 06:52.11 | Estel_ | nothing irrevertible - You just need to start from scratch |
| 06:52.31 | Estel_ | when do You want to reboot? After Combined? |
| 06:52.44 | kwtm2 | Ok, I will redo the flashing, removing the battery in between. In answer to your last question, |
| 06:53.12 | kwtm2 | I plan to flash both eMMC and firmware, so I guess I'll do that in that order. But after firmware (last time) I tried to reboot but the device wouldn't respond. |
| 06:53.41 | kwtm2 | So finally I took out the battery for a moment, replaced it, and it said "missing image". So anyway, I will redo it the way you have told me. |
| 06:53.46 | Estel_ | kwtm2, You may reboot using flasher - either provide -R at end of flashing command (combined only, not after eMMC0, or just do flasher-3.5 -R after flashing |
| 06:53.57 | Estel_ | because it went fubar after eMMC flashing :) |
| 06:54.19 | Estel_ | basically, you flash eMMC, without -R command to not allow it reboot - after flashing, You have quite unlimtied ammount of time to remove battery and unplug cable, no need to haste. |
| 06:54.21 | kwtm2 | Estel_: Right, I've put -R now but previously I did not put -R and I thought I could reboot manually, which the wiki leads me to believe, but I see that this is not true. |
| 06:54.39 | Estel_ | then, You flash combined, via same way as before (plugging device while holding "U"), but this time you may add -R command at end |
| 06:54.42 | kwtm2 | Estel_: I did not reboot after eMMC, so I don't know why it went fubar. |
| 06:55.04 | Estel_ | kwtm2, You *may* reboot manuall,y by issuing "flasher-3.5 -R" after flashing |
| 06:55.16 | Estel_ | it';s just dividing it to two steps, unnecessary. More conveinent is to reboot after combined. |
| 06:55.19 | kwtm2 | Estel_: ?? Do I need to plug the device in again while holding U? That was not clear -- I thought I flashed the firmware immediately last time and it worked. |
| 06:55.36 | Estel_ | theoretically, removing batteyr again, inserting it, and booting normally shgould work too, haven't checked |
| 06:55.42 | kwtm2 | Ah, I reboot manually by issuing "flasher-3.5 -R" from my laptop. That part is also unclear. Ok. |
| 06:55.45 | Estel_ | You flashed eMMC |
| 06:55.59 | Estel_ | after eMMc, you remove battery AND unplug cable, as luke mentioned |
| 06:56.06 | Estel_ | so you need to somehow plug it again to flash combined ;) |
| 06:56.14 | Estel_ | and, you need to bring it into flashing mode agasin |
| 06:56.17 | Estel_ | so, holding "U" |
| 06:56.47 | Estel_ | basically, to flash including eMMc, You do two separate flashing, separated by removing battery. To flash normally, you just flash combined. |
| 06:57.00 | Estel_ | warning - if You have done custom partition layout, it will be gone after flashing eMMC vanilla. |
| 06:57.14 | kwtm2 | Ah. That part was completely unclear. There were 2 sections in the wiki, and they sounded independent, like written for people who only wanted to flash one or the other. It was not clear that the U part was still necessary and could not be skipped if I wanted to do both. Ok, I will put that in my script file. |
| 06:57.21 | kwtm2 | Otherwise in 2 years I will forget again. |
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| 06:59.03 | Estel_ | kwtm2, thats true, wiki was written by different people. |
| 06:59.07 | Estel_ | You could also upgrade wiki |
| 06:59.18 | Estel_ | making it better source of knowledge not only for You, for later, but for others too |
| 06:59.25 | Estel_ | but please, do it only after successful flashing :) |
| 07:01.55 | kwtm2 | Estel_: Well, I successfully flashed about half a dozen times when I first got the device, two years ago, and wished I had updated the wiki then. :P |
| 07:02.28 | Estel_ | so do it this timer, cause there is high chance that You will be using Yuor N900 after next 2 years too :) |
| 07:02.34 | Estel_ | sorry for typos. |
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| 07:04.56 | kwtm2 | Estel_: Yes, I probably will; seeing Nokia's sinking ship, I bought an extra N900 because I don't want to give up my investment in all the scripts I've written for the N900 (and I don't want to have to learn Android or Apple). |
| 07:05.15 | kwtm2 | That's partly why I dare to reflash my N900 now: I have an extra one in case something goes wrong. |
| 07:05.35 | kwtm2 | The previous times it was out of necessity. I learned firsthand about the ~/.profile bug. :P |
| 07:06.06 | Estel_ | hehe. |
| 07:06.16 | Estel_ | Yea, no really suitable devices on horizon |
| 07:06.16 | kwtm2 | eMMC flashed. So now I *must* not remove the USB cable when I remove the battery? Or I *may* remove the USB cable before I remove teh battery? |
| 07:06.36 | Estel_ | you may either buy android that got 21432453543543543543543 MHZ and RAMJ, just to spy on you more effectively, but don't allow You to use that horsepower... |
| 07:06.42 | Estel_ | on anything usable... |
| 07:06.58 | Estel_ | or stick to Your good N900 that does circles around multi-core devices, in terms of real life usability :) |
| 07:07.06 | kwtm2 | I had such high hopes for The Samsung Linux Phone Secret Project. |
| 07:07.15 | Estel_ | you may do it hoever you want |
| 07:07.23 | kwtm2 | But I need to knwo. Can I remove the cable before the battery? Ah, I can. Ok. |
| 07:07.24 | Estel_ | just be sure to, at the end, have both batteyr and cable unplug |
| 07:09.10 | kwtm2 | Ohh!!! I see the firmware flashing now. It did not do that previously, but listed all the stuff it was going to flash, and then exited to prompt, so I thought it had flashed already. Someone should program the flasher to say "I did not flash"!!! I thought the list of stuff was shown as it was flashing, and it was done. Geez, no wonder. |
| 07:09.36 | kwtm2 | Now I will have to go flash CSSU. I want the power kernel that lets me do mobile hotspot. |
| 07:09.59 | kwtm2 | Oh, and it's even rebooting. Look at that. |
| 07:12.25 | kwtm2 | Holy cow, I must put in the wiki that it will flash does 5 dots for 67 seconds. I was worried it had gone into infinite loop like the other time with the ~/.profile bug. |
| 07:18.17 | kwtm2 | wait, the CSSU is just a package to be installed? It does not need flashing? |
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| 07:26.21 | kwtm2 | seen anyone |
| 07:26.49 | Pali | kwtm2, yes CSSU is meta packge which install all updated packages |
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| 07:27.21 | kwtm2 | Ok, Pali. Question about the power kernel (boy the web page is very ambiguous). |
| 07:28.26 | kwtm2 | I'm reading wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power It says with the stable kernel you can change the frequency limits, the voltages and DSP frequencies online." Does that mean I *cannot* do the mobile hotspot (tethering)? Do I need the unstable kernel for that? |
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| 07:28.58 | kwtm2 | It says of the unstable kernel "This kernel version contains additional experimental features and patches. " But it doesn't say which additional features. |
| 07:29.39 | Pali | kwtm2, kernel-power is stable now |
| 07:29.40 | Pali | v50 |
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| 07:29.53 | kwtm2 | The page "http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/kernel-power-flasher/" lists features. |
| 07:30.16 | Pali | last version (v50) which is in Extras (and also on that link) is stable |
| 07:30.19 | kwtm2 | Pali: Oh, so there is only one version of power kernel that I need to install, and it is both stable and contains the ability for hotspot? |
| 07:30.35 | Pali | yes |
| 07:30.36 | kwtm2 | Also, it does not list hotspot but it lists NAT. Is NAT what is required for hotspot? |
| 07:30.50 | Pali | yes |
| 07:30.54 | Pali | ~wiki NAT |
| 07:30.55 | kwtm2 | Ok. Hmm, someone (probably me) should sort through that wiki and update it. |
| 07:31.06 | kwtm2 | I know what NAT is. |
| 07:31.21 | kwtm2 | I did not know that that is what is required to run hotspot. I thought all Linux came with NAT. |
| 07:31.35 | kwtm2 | Anyway, now I know. Will install CSSU and power kernel. |
| 07:31.38 | kwtm2 | Thx. |
| 07:31.55 | Pali | you can disable it when building linux kernel |
| 07:32.25 | kwtm2 | Pali: Right, but I never figured Nokia would actually disable it. it almost kills the point of having Linux. Well, I am glad I can reenable it. |
| 07:35.45 | Estel_ | kwtm2, wiki says about long time for 5 dots |
| 07:35.58 | Estel_ | i remember, that it's written somewhere, about long time of first run due to optification |
| 07:36.37 | kwtm2 | Estel_: Yes, but I think people would benefit from knowing a more absolute number. 15 seconds seems long to me (after all, the clock ticks at 600 million times a second, you'd think it would be done in 5 seconds). |
| 07:36.47 | Estel_ | Pali, I remember now, thatone aprt of my tonight's dream was about forwarding info to You about osso-backup source codes being released |
| 07:36.52 | Estel_ | I need vacation, I think |
| 07:37.10 | Estel_ | kwtm2, there is no absolute number, it may be longer or shorter |
| 07:37.20 | Estel_ | generally, it's just longer than usual |
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| 07:44.11 | kwtm2 | Wow, does the N900 change its mac address after reflashing!? |
| 07:45.42 | kwtm2 | incredible! So the firmware must have something that generates a MAC address after it's reflashed. |
| 07:50.06 | Pali | kwtm2, no. mac address is stored in CAL NAND (/dev/mtd1) |
| 07:50.35 | Pali | and maemo system read it from nand at startup and send address to wifi chip |
| 07:50.45 | kwtm2 | well, my n900 just got a new MAC address. So maybe the nand is updated? |
| 07:51.15 | Pali | kwtm2, it could be corrupted |
| 07:51.27 | Pali | or some app removed/changed your mac address in nand |
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| 07:52.07 | Pali | can somebody forward maemo.org website bugs to X-Fade? |
| 07:52.27 | Pali | bug 12581 |
| 07:52.29 | povbot_ | 04Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12581 Not possible to browse history of Developer forum |
| 07:52.38 | Pali | bug 12623 |
| 07:52.40 | povbot_ | 04Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12623 Do not auto log out on maemo.org midgard |
| 07:52.47 | Pali | bug 12633 |
| 07:52.49 | povbot_ | 04Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12633 Maemo.org website via HTTPS not working for anonymous users |
| 07:52.57 | Pali | Estel_ ^^^ |
| 07:53.01 | kwtm2 | Pali: It could be. I have a record here that my N900 MAC address changed on 2010-06-19, so it's happened before. |
| 07:53.28 | Pali | 2010? |
| 07:53.46 | Pali | also *original* mac address is somewhere on n900 box |
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| 07:57.05 | kwtm2 | Really? I don't know if I still have the original box. In any case ... it changed again. |
| 07:57.09 | kwtm2 | Not that I mind. |
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| 10:29.40 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: (bulging caps) you MUST use low-ESR types for replacement, usually |
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| 10:34.14 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: yes, you're absolutely right about possibility of council asking x-fade (or - as group contact employer - Nokia in general) to change anything in IRC. I'm sure x-fade will follow _reasonable_ requests, to the degree his company policy allows (e.g. he mustn't give up control over channel, even if he maybe wasn't averse to do ;-D ) |
| 10:34.49 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: still I don't feel I pivot rules |
| 10:36.05 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: let's agree that we disagree sometimes about how to read any existing rules |
| 10:36.27 | freemangordon | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:36.47 | freemangordon | GTK build uses 10-20 less MB, I think that is the option we have to find a way to use |
| 10:37.07 | SpeedEvil | freemangordon: Of real memory - PSS ? |
| 10:37.23 | freemangordon | yep, RAM, according to conky |
| 10:37.38 | SpeedEvil | That's misleading, it's probably using RSS, which has issues |
| 10:38.03 | SpeedEvil | you don't care about - for example - the amount of RAM used for mapped libraries that are mapped by system processes |
| 10:38.14 | freemangordon | SpeedEvil: well, Qt is not mapped ;) |
| 10:38.18 | freemangordon | (libs) |
| 10:38.21 | SpeedEvil | k |
| 10:38.24 | freemangordon | while GTK is |
| 10:38.33 | SpeedEvil | I just woke up, so I may be say ing crap. |
| 10:38.38 | freemangordon | :) |
| 10:38.46 | SpeedEvil | http://www.selenic.com/smem/ |
| 10:38.56 | SpeedEvil | Works fine on n900 - the python bit, not the graph |
| 10:39.02 | SpeedEvil | I found it useful. |
| 10:39.07 | freemangordon | even with thumb, newer compiler, etc,etc, Qt is still HUGE |
| 10:39.14 | SpeedEvil | Some of the trivil nokia resident stuff is _very_ lightweight |
| 10:39.18 | SpeedEvil | trivial |
| 10:40.04 | freemangordon | and if we find a way to get rid of it for fennec(which itself is a memory hungry animal), we will gain some speedup,whatever |
| 10:40.35 | *** part/#maemo valeriusN (~valeriusN@xmpp.jrudevels.org) |
| 10:40.47 | freemangordon | also i tried flash with fennec, it works, but it is SLOOOW. And I can bet it is because of Qt |
| 10:41.27 | SpeedEvil | Flash is crap, and should die. But it's very useful :/ |
| 10:41.45 | freemangordon | back in the days I was tring to make my own Qt/WebKit based browser, it was PITA to run flash without performance penalty because of Qt |
| 10:42.08 | freemangordon | Not that I did not succeed, but it was PITA |
| 10:42.43 | freemangordon | anyway, lets see how GTK will behave with GLES acceleration enabled |
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| 10:44.24 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: (( If You think that referendum can be used to remove volunteers form volunteering,...)) please reread my post - I *never* suggested _anything_ like that. Such a referendum would be outright silly, unless it was about massive (criminal) lapse of one particular council member, in which case I guess most democracies know the concept of removing immunity from politicians. In same context: I think applying rules known from good |
| 10:44.25 | DocScrutinizer | democratic constitutions / politics is the only thing we got for most "common sense" questions regarding council and maemo 'administration' at large |
| 10:44.29 | freemangordon | SpeedEvil: in the meantime I agree with you re flash. But on the other hand if we have a working plugin on n900, why not use it? |
| 10:44.53 | SpeedEvil | Totally agree. |
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| 10:47.06 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: the basic concept however is always same, no matter how silly the request: first you collect supporters for your idea; if you can find sufficient number of supporters it will get attention of the administrative entity which then decides (based on whatever rules) if they will start a referendum about that topic |
| 10:49.22 | DocScrutinizer | it's one of the most honourable duties of the administrative entity to make sure common sense applies to any such request and that no reasonable well supported request goes unheard |
| 10:50.51 | DocScrutinizer | changing rules of council elections is a reasonable request in my book, if that change cures a perceived flaw in the present rules |
| 10:55.11 | Sicelo | so MfE is one hell of a beast on N900. m.google.com for server does not put any packet at all on outgoing pipe. it's like this thing is set to ignore m.google.com. otoh, its IP address works, but gets stuck because the certificate only mentions m.google.com |
| 10:55.41 | freemangordon | Sicelo: do you have newer libcurl3 installed? |
| 10:56.16 | Sicelo | i had older one yesterday. same thing. then i upgraded, same thing too |
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| 10:56.46 | freemangordon | no offence, which libcurl3 version you have now? |
| 10:57.34 | freemangordon | it should be 7.25.0-1maemo7 |
| 10:57.39 | Sicelo | 7.25.0-1maemo7 |
| 10:57.39 | freemangordon | Sicelo:^^^ |
| 10:57.42 | freemangordon | ok |
| 10:57.45 | Sicelo | yeha |
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| 10:59.44 | Sicelo | freemangordon: this is a bad one? |
| 11:00.04 | freemangordon | it is good |
| 11:01.14 | Sicelo | just interesting why MfE doesn't send anything at all. i would understand if it sends wrong or incompatible stuff. but here, nothing at all (according to wireshark) |
| 11:01.43 | freemangordon | Sicelo: did you restart after installing libcurl3? |
| 11:01.55 | Sicelo | any other url/ip does at least result in some sent packets, except m.google.com |
| 11:02.08 | Sicelo | hmm, i don't remember. let me do it just in case |
| 11:02.13 | freemangordon | :nod: |
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| 11:04.24 | DocScrutinizer | moo folks, btw |
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| 11:07.21 | Sicelo | lulz, works after a reboot. thanks freemangordon :P |
| 11:07.36 | freemangordon | :P |
| 11:10.52 | Sicelo | i'm still puzzled why it exhibits this behavior |
| 11:12.16 | freemangordon | DNS type AAAA records |
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| 11:29.12 | DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: :o) |
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| 11:30.27 | DocScrutinizer | send Sicelo off for 6 moths windows training, to learn about "you changed position of mouse - please reboot to make the changes to pointer take effect" |
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| 11:31.48 | Sicelo | hmm,:P |
| 11:32.08 | Sicelo | lulz. |
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| 11:34.16 | DocScrutinizer | anyway, freemangordon I guess we *need* a mandatory system reboot in libcurl postinst |
| 11:35.50 | DocScrutinizer | maybe a tiny bit of overkill (since in RL a restart of all services using libcurl should probably suffice), but MEH |
| 11:36.09 | Sicelo | i know i did reboot, but i suppose now that it was before this libcurl update. that said, i guess i should have known upgrading a lib would need a reboot |
| 11:36.20 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer: anyway, libcurl3 is not supposed to be distributed through extras-devel |
| 11:36.30 | DocScrutinizer | LOL right |
| 11:38.41 | DocScrutinizer | what's the name of the friggin service that waits til apt-worker and HAM and whatnot all have quit, then notifies user "now boot is pending! you can't dismiss this requester!" |
| 11:39.41 | DocScrutinizer | (assuming there has to be such process/script/tool already) |
| 11:42.57 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, so in fact, we completely agree. |
| 11:43.06 | Estel_ | You were describing process for "any" big change |
| 11:43.18 | Estel_ | which, of course, fall for referendum |
| 11:43.24 | Estel_ | falls under* |
| 11:44.00 | Estel_ | in context of person asking question etc. it could be, hoever, interpret as Your suggestion, how he shoul.d proceed ikn *his* case |
| 11:44.32 | Estel_ | i.e. someone not satisfied by CA results -> referendum about removing councilor(s). That was why I called it silly |
| 11:44.44 | Estel_ | I think that You mean procedure as whole, generaly |
| 11:44.52 | jacekowski | remove CA |
| 11:44.54 | jacekowski | problem solved |
| 11:44.57 | Estel_ | in which case, as said, we totaly agree |
| 11:45.07 | Estel_ | jacekowski, ca is removed, it's ended :P |
| 11:45.47 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, just keep in mind that I wasn't only one who took Your answer there as invitation to make silly trollstorm referendum - it seems that lma got same feeling, and, possibly, other readers |
| 11:45.58 | Estel_ | just problem of misscomunication and context :) |
| 11:46.08 | Estel_ | freemangordon, ping |
| 11:46.17 | freemangordon | pong |
| 11:46.24 | Estel_ | about cssu-thumb |
| 11:46.34 | Estel_ | (if You have time now) |
| 11:46.39 | freemangordon | what about it? |
| 11:47.00 | Estel_ | what are plans for painless integration with current, erm, ecosystem (joking :P) of programs depending on KP? |
| 11:47.10 | Estel_ | i.e. will kernel-cssu "provide" kp in future? |
| 11:47.34 | Estel_ | I feel silly changing control files and repacking everything that want to see KP and have kernel-cssu instead |
| 11:47.49 | Estel_ | ...from kernel-power-settings, to cleven and h-e-n |
| 11:47.58 | freemangordon | so far there are 2 packages which don't like kernal-cssu - KPS and compat-wireless-power |
| 11:48.02 | Estel_ | disclaimer - I'm not demanding or whinning, just curious |
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| 11:48.05 | freemangordon | h-e-n has no problem |
| 11:48.14 | Estel_ | ough, so I did it without reason |
| 11:48.33 | Estel_ | so it's rather packages in question problem, not kernel-cssu one? |
| 11:48.35 | freemangordon | Pali, ping |
| 11:48.46 | Pali | freemangordon, pong |
| 11:48.47 | freemangordon | Estel_: yep |
| 11:49.01 | freemangordon | Pali: will you push newer KPS? |
| 11:49.06 | Estel_ | also, is there anything depending on cssu (normal, not thumb) that cries when thumb one is present? |
| 11:49.14 | Estel_ | Pali, I've seen bugs about web, forwarded them |
| 11:49.21 | freemangordon | none I am aware of |
| 11:49.35 | freemangordon | Pali: maybe new KP too |
| 11:49.39 | Pali | Estel_, ok |
| 11:49.51 | Estel_ | Pali, yes, please, newer KPS would be greatly appreciated - as I presume, it will work with both KP and KCSSU with no problems |
| 11:49.55 | freemangordon | with the fix for FMTX |
| 11:49.55 | Estel_ | from now on |
| 11:50.06 | Estel_ | wut fix for ftmx? |
| 11:50.16 | Pali | freemangordon, there was problem with kernel-power-settings some shift problem when user has old config file |
| 11:50.25 | freemangordon | Pali: I know |
| 11:50.32 | Pali | do you have log? |
| 11:50.42 | Pali | I'd like to fix this too |
| 11:51.03 | Pali | Estel_, echo 1 > lock for fmtx not worked |
| 11:51.03 | freemangordon | Pali: no |
| 11:51.12 | Estel_ | I see |
| 11:51.19 | Pali | but printf 1 > lock worked (e.g omit \n) |
| 11:51.24 | Estel_ | erm, what this echo was supposed to do? |
| 11:51.33 | Pali | lock or unlock fmtx |
| 11:51.36 | freemangordon | (actually it causes sh to use 100% CPU) |
| 11:51.40 | Estel_ | ouh |
| 11:51.48 | Estel_ | understood |
| 11:51.56 | Estel_ | kernel-cssu also contain fix? |
| 11:52.01 | freemangordon | no :) |
| 11:52.04 | Hurrian | freemangordon, it seems that linux-backports-modules-power depends on KP too |
| 11:52.13 | freemangordon | Hurrian: yep |
| 11:52.22 | freemangordon | and guess who is the maintainer :D:D:D |
| 11:52.42 | dhfg | ~span freemangordon |
| 11:52.45 | dhfg | ~spank freemangordon |
| 11:52.45 | infobot | ACTION bends freemangordon over his knee and tatoos 'ibot' on freemangordon's pasty white buttocks. |
| 11:52.51 | Hurrian | it should probably be inlined into the kernel now |
| 11:53.18 | Estel_ | freemangordon, seriously though, to this day I wonder, what is use for those bluetooth modules? |
| 11:53.22 | Estel_ | compat one? |
| 11:53.29 | Estel_ | what use is* |
| 11:53.36 | Hurrian | whelp, ran out of time this weekend, but come next weekend, I'll try winging it and simply replacing the driver trees and rebuilding |
| 11:53.43 | freemangordon | Hurrian: a better solution is Provides: kernel-feature-wireless-compat-VNN |
| 11:53.51 | freemangordon | Pali: ^^^ |
| 11:53.51 | Estel_ | agree. |
| 11:53.55 | freemangordon | what do you think |
| 11:54.19 | Hurrian | freemangordon, agreed |
| 11:54.20 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: (problem of context) quite likely. I strictly answered on this one post of zogg - not even reading the prev thread |
| 11:54.56 | freemangordon | Estel_: NFC what these BT modules do, better as whoever was the author of wireless-compat drivers |
| 11:55.02 | freemangordon | i've just packaged it |
| 11:55.04 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, this answers it. Of course it's not Your fault, but You may consider (or not) some clarification, as, per what I know, 100% of readers took it as support for zog's idea |
| 11:55.08 | Hurrian | also, imo kp-based kernels should provide kernel-feature-poweruser or something to indicate presence of augmentations |
| 11:55.30 | Estel_ | freemangordon, aye. So we're not using them anywhere? I wonder if anyone tried loading them |
| 11:55.37 | Estel_ | and live to tell tale about effects |
| 11:55.51 | freemangordon | Estel_: NFC. You're free to try them :P |
| 11:56.05 | zeq | freemangordon: I'll be about later this afternoon. I agree, we need to go with whatever works best qt vs gtk, and memory consumption is a big one! |
| 11:56.24 | Estel_ | GTK! GTK! just for the sake of it :P |
| 11:56.46 | freemangordon | zeq: yep, unfortunaltely GTK build spits "Attempting load of libEGL.so |
| 11:56.46 | freemangordon | Failed to create EGL config!" |
| 11:56.57 | Pali | Hurrian, see u-boot thread for initrd |
| 11:57.00 | zeq | does it fail to find libEGL.so? |
| 11:57.12 | freemangordon | it fails to create EGL config |
| 11:57.43 | Pali | freemangordon, where to add Provides? |
| 11:57.52 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, stupid question mode on - considering N900 board layout, are there any chances for hassle-free inclusion of active cooling, as prrof-of-concept? Or due to sandwitched chips, it would be placebo? |
| 11:57.53 | freemangordon | reboots the device in an attempt to make that work |
| 11:58.07 | Pali | to package linux-backports-modules-power? |
| 11:58.08 | freemangordon | Pali: in KP |
| 11:58.13 | zeq | freemangordon: similar to the situation with qt with egl enabled? |
| 11:58.20 | freemangordon | zeq: no |
| 11:58.27 | Hurrian | zeq: use one, and only one |
| 11:58.29 | freemangordon | Qt port works |
| 11:58.32 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Cooling is largely pointless |
| 11:58.38 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, hm? |
| 11:58.48 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Issues with overclocking are not due to temperature. |
| 11:58.52 | Estel_ | of course |
| 11:58.58 | freemangordon | Pali: right now compat-wireless-power depend on KP ==== v50 |
| 11:59.07 | freemangordon | == |
| 11:59.09 | Estel_ | I'm not telling, that it will create devices with 1.7 GHZ |
| 11:59.14 | zeq | freemangordon: we'll need to look into where all the memory is going |
| 11:59.20 | kwtm2 | Just woke up. Sorry, there is now a kernel-cssu which is not kernel-power? If I want mobile hotspot, do I need kernel-power or is kernel-CSSU enough? I dont' need to overclocking; I just want mobile tethering for my portable wifi devices like the non-cellphone-enabled iPad we have. |
| 11:59.27 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, I'm thinking about it as attempt for counter-electromigration |
| 11:59.33 | Hurrian | kwtm2, kernel-cssu is kernel-power |
| 11:59.34 | Estel_ | prolonging live of device |
| 11:59.35 | freemangordon | zeq: it is Qt by itself |
| 11:59.37 | Hurrian | just... rebranded |
| 11:59.46 | Estel_ | and, generally, cooler cpus works better :P |
| 11:59.53 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: (cooling) terribly complicated and of rather questionable benefit |
| 12:00.15 | DocScrutinizer | ahh, cheers SpeedEvil |
| 12:00.25 | zeq | freemangordon: so all other qt apps so similar usage? |
| 12:00.33 | Pali | freemangordon, ok, so you need some provide line kernel-power-flasher and kernel-power-bootimg |
| 12:00.39 | freemangordon | yep, even worse without thumb |
| 12:00.41 | Estel_ | i.e. applying radiator to part of SoC being most top one isn't going to help? |
| 12:00.43 | Hurrian | Estel, the most we're putting into the N900 is a small heatsink |
| 12:00.45 | kwtm2 | I see. I must have misunderstood [04:47] <Estel_> I feel silly changing control files and repacking everything that want to see KP and have kernel-cssu instead |
| 12:00.51 | Estel_ | what it is, btw, one-nand? |
| 12:00.56 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: You are putting stress on the ram-chip |
| 12:01.05 | kwtm2 | If they are the same, then that's ok. In fact, I fell asleep trying to upgrade the kernel on my N900. |
| 12:01.06 | Hurrian | the onenand sits on top of the CPU |
| 12:01.10 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: which has issues of its own. Cooling the board is probably better. |
| 12:01.20 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: regarding EM it's pointless since due to very local and sub-millisecond hotspots on chip you physically can not transport temperature away fast enough |
| 12:01.35 | Estel_ | Hurrian, sure, heatsink sounds reasonable... |
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| 12:01.52 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, understood. General chip temperature, prolonged, doesn't affect it, though? |
| 12:02.19 | DocScrutinizer | it would when you could cool down the chip by 100 or 150 200 °C |
| 12:02.26 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, cooling the board? using what? liquid nitrogen? :P |
| 12:02.33 | Hurrian | on the more extreme side, with the addition of another battery, you may be able to strap on a peltier cooler |
| 12:02.46 | Estel_ | Hurrian, peltier would introduce more heat |
| 12:02.52 | Estel_ | to take it out |
| 12:02.56 | Estel_ | + isolation |
| 12:02.58 | DocScrutinizer | cooling the chip means cooling the whole board as the board is chip's heatsink |
| 12:03.01 | Hurrian | Estel, we just have to drain it fast enough, somehow |
| 12:03.35 | Hurrian | again, impractical but cool |
| 12:03.48 | DocScrutinizer | bottom line: interesting idea - but forget it ;-) |
| 12:03.55 | Estel_ | Hurrian, more 1337 is using 75 percent potasium and 25 percent Na - melting point 25 celsius degrees under zero. Call it liquid metal cooling :P |
| 12:04.05 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, lol |
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| 12:05.02 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, so generally applying heatsink to EMI shields (as they're connected to mass, ground plates inside board) is as much practical as fancy cooling of chip itself? |
| 12:05.21 | Hurrian | making a cooler for the N900 wouldn't be all that hard, there's a lot of free space for a milled/stamped out passive heatsink |
| 12:05.25 | Estel_ | btw, emi shields are not soldered, but simply "put" on borders, borders itself are soldered |
| 12:05.34 | Estel_ | Hurrian, yep. |
| 12:05.38 | Hurrian | optionally an "active" heatsink, with the addition of blowing air |
| 12:05.53 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: won't help anything, as the bottleneck is the case itself |
| 12:05.56 | Estel_ | I got just crazy ideas for my first prototype of aluminum body replacement :P |
| 12:06.06 | Estel_ | some of them containing heat pipes |
| 12:06.10 | Estel_ | :P |
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| 12:06.25 | Estel_ | I know, silly, I was thinking about it as a proof of concept, rather |
| 12:06.33 | Hurrian | I have a salvaged copper laptop cooler on my table, and I was imagining all morning how easy it'd be to stamp one out, and thermal-tape it to the SoC |
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| 12:07.15 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: with an alu body the whole thing changes a LOT |
| 12:07.22 | Estel_ | well, I wonder how cooling one-nand (being the topmost part) would propagate to SoC and rest of noard |
| 12:07.26 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, yea |
| 12:07.33 | DocScrutinizer | not at all |
| 12:07.36 | Hurrian | Estel_, just regular heat propagation, but slower |
| 12:08.16 | Estel_ | I would like to most effectively transfer heat from board/chip/memory to alu body |
| 12:08.25 | DocScrutinizer | SoC has power eating CPU in sandwich between board and RAM POP |
| 12:08.30 | Estel_ | and I'm searching for best "contact point" or points |
| 12:08.32 | Estel_ | yea |
| 12:08.42 | DocScrutinizer | cooling RAM POP won't earn you much |
| 12:08.52 | Hurrian | alu/copper sleeve that wraps around the entire SoC+PoP assembly? |
| 12:08.55 | Estel_ | wait, so ram is topmost, not one-nand? |
| 12:08.56 | DocScrutinizer | you need to cool the board |
| 12:09.08 | DocScrutinizer | ground plane of board to be specific |
| 12:09.17 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, yea, suspected that |
| 12:09.52 | Estel_ | generally, they did awesomely good job of propagating heat transfer to board. Now how to take it out effectively, without big direct contact point with ground plane? |
| 12:10.12 | Estel_ | emi shields are just "put" at top, not soldered |
| 12:10.12 | Hurrian | Estel_, encase the whole SoC and PoP in a sleeve? |
| 12:10.25 | DocScrutinizer | since there ate few plain void areas on board, you have a hard time to physically attach a heatsink to it |
| 12:10.33 | Estel_ | Hurrian, it is some idea, but I'm rather thinking about taking it out from shields inside board (out heat) |
| 12:10.53 | Hurrian | ah, without taking off the shields? |
| 12:10.53 | Estel_ | maybe scrap solder mask somewhere? :P |
| 12:11.07 | Estel_ | Hurrian, yea, or with, as my alu body is shield in itself |
| 12:11.11 | Estel_ | so it matters less |
| 12:11.23 | DocScrutinizer | EMI shields don'T help - it's iron, very thin iron. A rather poor heat conductor |
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| 12:11.31 | Estel_ | exactly |
| 12:11.43 | Estel_ | + it is in just "touch" contact |
| 12:12.46 | Estel_ | first idea was to put heatsink on chip itself, attached via liquid metal as a thermal paste (seriously), it's easy doable, but rather poor at cooling board |
| 12:13.15 | Estel_ | well, helps a little due to stressed ram being cooled... but... |
| 12:13.17 | DocScrutinizer | you might (given the bizarre nature of whole topic) consider sealing SoC shield can hermetically, then attach two nozzles and pump cooling liquid thru the whole compartment |
| 12:13.36 | Estel_ | 0_o |
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| 12:14.02 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
| 12:14.12 | Estel_ | N900 underwater project :D |
| 12:14.21 | DocScrutinizer | probably some special mineral oils would work |
| 12:14.31 | DocScrutinizer | or some high alcohols |
| 12:14.38 | Estel_ | yea, but they're bad as coolers :P |
| 12:14.50 | Hurrian | Estel_, mineral oil board immersion? |
| 12:14.51 | DocScrutinizer | nah, glycol is not that bad |
| 12:14.58 | Estel_ | Hurrian, yea :P |
| 12:15.19 | Hurrian | I can see TMO filled with requests for a special fiberglass mineral oil case |
| 12:15.23 | DocScrutinizer | but I guess it's too hygroscopic to be a good isolator |
| 12:16.11 | Estel_ | we have some points where keyboard case and such things touch ground planes |
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| 12:16.22 | Estel_ | or generally, parts of body |
| 12:16.53 | Estel_ | putting them in contact with alu body - in good contact - is probably going to help a lot |
| 12:16.56 | DocScrutinizer | realistically your best bet is moving air across the 'backside' of PCB |
| 12:17.09 | Estel_ | Ion cooler :D |
| 12:17.19 | Estel_ | 2KV in Your N900's backside |
| 12:17.28 | DocScrutinizer | why not |
| 12:17.36 | Hurrian | we should do that without cutting a large hole in the phone and decreasing resistance to water drops |
| 12:17.44 | Estel_ | would be cool, and could dubble for a neon light power source |
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| 12:18.57 | DocScrutinizer | otoh ther are extremely small fans available or you can build them from RC-components |
| 12:19.04 | Estel_ | I think that, realistically, touching ground plates where applicable is best idea, + part touching chip without emi shielding as a extreme case |
| 12:19.13 | Estel_ | huh? |
| 12:19.24 | Estel_ | power suckers :P |
| 12:19.30 | DocScrutinizer | a bit |
| 12:19.33 | DocScrutinizer | not that bad |
| 12:19.49 | DocScrutinizer | way less than the energy they move out ;-P |
| 12:19.53 | Estel_ | we were joking a little, but seriously I'm thinking now about realistical ways to increase cooling, having alu body |
| 12:20.04 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, yea :D |
| 12:20.42 | Estel_ | BTW, You know that someone did thievery on my idea and is selling phone chargers based on flame and heat? |
| 12:20.44 | DocScrutinizer | find plain void areas of PCB, glue headsinks/-pipes to them with CPU cooler sticky pads |
| 12:21.15 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, sticky pads are suckers at effective cooling, I'm using liquid metal instead :P but generally, agree |
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| 12:21.39 | Estel_ | my idea was stirling engine charger powered by pocket lighter |
| 12:21.58 | Estel_ | someone decided, that incorporating room where You put a little wood and burn it is better, lol |
| 12:21.59 | DocScrutinizer | liquid metal doesn't isolate, a mandatory property of your heat conducting stuff you use to attach to PCB geberally |
| 12:22.26 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, but I'm attaching metal part to ground, why should it isolate? |
| 12:22.34 | Estel_ | current N900 case is grounded too |
| 12:22.46 | Estel_ | backside of screen, metal frame around it |
| 12:22.55 | DocScrutinizer | don't mess with groundplane design! |
| 12:23.05 | DocScrutinizer | it's not a static thing, electrically |
| 12:23.06 | Estel_ | ? why, it's interesting |
| 12:23.16 | DocScrutinizer | any loop you create may cause massive trouble |
| 12:23.49 | DocScrutinizer | whole groundplane is also part of all antennae |
| 12:23.51 | Estel_ | I see, so why they have, practicaly, attached back of screen and our metal loop around screen to ground plane? or i missunderstood something? |
| 12:24.24 | DocScrutinizer | they evaluated this particular way they did this, and you mustn't change it basically |
| 12:25.32 | Estel_ | sure, I'm just interested why, natural curious. BTW, I got electricized by N900 frame around screen, once |
| 12:25.49 | DocScrutinizer | general rule: keep any existing ground connections, don't create any new ones |
| 12:25.54 | Estel_ | my modified charger was screwde in one point, and applied AC voltage to USB case |
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| 12:26.39 | Estel_ | harging worked fine, but voltage from outer part of USB case (not 220V, lower) was transfered to N900's usb case |
| 12:26.52 | Estel_ | and through it, to metal frame around screen |
| 12:26.59 | Estel_ | nice anti-thievery protection :P |
| 12:27.22 | DocScrutinizer | I heard of somebody getting this effect on headset earplugs X-P |
| 12:27.30 | Estel_ | it was lying on my desk, and every time I reached my notebook (which have metal case), something was biting my arm |
| 12:27.32 | Estel_ | lol |
| 12:27.52 | Estel_ | then I started to suspect something - for first, I though that my notebook metal case is on voltage |
| 12:28.01 | Estel_ | started to emasure it with multimeter |
| 12:28.03 | DocScrutinizer | THIS must go directly to your brain! ;-P |
| 12:28.36 | Estel_ | to the point where I touched notebook and N900 metal case via multimeter - notebook to this point have small brown point, burned out |
| 12:28.44 | Estel_ | just on surface, but still |
| 12:29.25 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: either you switched your MM to ampere, or you used a really really crappy MM |
| 12:29.27 | Estel_ | Part of charger pcp cut through isolation while assembloing unit, and was touching one capacitor or whatsnot, anyway, it was creating initially small, yet getting bigger and bigger voltage |
| 12:29.35 | Estel_ | the latter :P |
| 12:29.53 | DocScrutinizer | impedance of a MM at voltage range should be several M-Ohms per volt |
| 12:29.58 | Estel_ | exactly. |
| 12:30.07 | Estel_ | which convinced me to buy new MM :P |
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| 12:30.15 | DocScrutinizer | good :-P |
| 12:30.47 | Estel_ | anyway, using ampere in search for wandering voltage would grant me honorable mention at darwin awards |
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| 12:31.25 | Estel_ | btw I'm glad my device wasn't screwed due to this, fortunately, board is wisely designed |
| 12:31.44 | Estel_ | (i.e. AC 40-60V applied to ground plane didn't affected N900at all) |
| 12:31.51 | Estel_ | it was working whole time :P |
| 12:32.29 | Estel_ | btw I wonder what the hell made voltage AC that was initially less than 1V and was raising with time |
| 12:33.27 | kwtm2 | Sorry, how do we know/show that kernel-power is installed ? (apart from apt-cache policy or otherwise apt *saying* it's installed.) Can we tell from uname in terminal? Some settings screen that says "I now feel omnipotent" or something? |
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| 12:35.04 | Sicelo | uname |
| 12:36.17 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I waas thinking about this preserving ground plane design and something came to my mind: |
| 12:36.36 | Estel_ | 1. We know, that metal frame and backside of screen is connected to ground plane. |
| 12:37.01 | Estel_ | 2. So, by touching metal frame to any metal, even accidentaly, we change groundplane design! |
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| 12:37.04 | Estel_ | yep? |
| 12:38.11 | Estel_ | i.e. when N900 lies on desk, touching box for cigarettes (metal one) ground plane is different, yes? |
| 12:45.16 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: better? http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1229427&postcount=46 |
| 12:45.29 | shanttu | Finnish technews-site is gathering information on Maemo/Meego/Meltemi -story. Author's first words on topic http://tinyurl.com/75ao493 Will be interesting to read the article when it's ready. |
| 12:48.19 | DocScrutinizer | (ground plane design) basically yes. Really nasty problems are created by loops though, which obviously need 2 touchpoints |
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| 13:07.47 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, sure (edit) |
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| 13:20.27 | kwtm | Wow, the built-in backup manager on the N900 froze (on both of my N900's). Wonder if it's a bad microSD card? |
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| 13:36.58 | DocScrutinizer | kwtm: backup manager works on "plugins" for apps to tell what they want to get backup'ed and how. If such a plugin is broken by design, it might freeze whole backup manager I'd guess |
| 13:44.03 | kwtm | DocScrutinizer: Ok. But I was just trying to restore from a reflashed clean system. It asked me what I wanted to restore (communications, apps list, etc.) and when I pressed ok on the default (which was all 4 of those items to be restored) it froze. Wouldn't even let the sliding switch lock the screen/keys. |
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| 13:44.37 | kwtm | Perhaps by that time it had already installed a broken plugin? I don't know. Anyway, I removed the battery to reboot. |
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| 13:58.48 | DocScrutinizer | strange thing is that my device yesterday also semi-froze, wasn't able to unlock screen anymore, though other stuff still worked evidently (I was able to tell from my playswoosh sound attached to kbd slide open event) |
| 13:59.45 | DocScrutinizer | also had to remove battery to recover |
| 14:00.33 | DocScrutinizer | since not even 10 seconds press of powerbutton helped to shut it down gracefully |
| 14:01.37 | DocScrutinizer | I'm still wondering what caused this |
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| 14:03.54 | ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer; oh hey, I need your paypal address |
| 14:16.37 | ZogG_laptop | ShadowJK: i need your clothes sunglasses and motocycle |
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| 14:17.05 | ShadowJK | have a twinkie |
| 14:18.58 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: there's a "support my work" link under each tmo post of me |
| 14:19.02 | Pauly12 | hello |
| 14:19.53 | ShadowJK | how much did the n900 cost you? |
| 14:20.08 | DocScrutinizer | er, some 250..260 |
| 14:20.36 | DocScrutinizer | lemme check |
| 14:21.15 | DocScrutinizer | 255 |
| 14:22.19 | DocScrutinizer | Pauly12: let me guess - you got a N900 to sell? |
| 14:22.32 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 14:22.34 | Pauly12 | no |
| 14:23.06 | DocScrutinizer | ooh sorry, then my memory failed |
| 14:23.22 | Pauly12 | DocScrutinizer: wanted to know if you can take RAW pics on n9? |
| 14:23.42 | DocScrutinizer | I don't know |
| 14:24.02 | DocScrutinizer | anyway I guess #n9 or #harmattan are the better channels to ask that |
| 14:24.04 | ZogG_laptop | at least there is no setting for that |
| 14:24.21 | Pauly12 | the Fcam api is in harmattan but i have no idea if there is an app |
| 14:26.45 | Pauly12 | DocScrutinizer: ya i regret selling my n900 |
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| 14:42.21 | AsianFemale24 | hello |
| 14:42.50 | AsianFemale24 | hello? |
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| 15:25.16 | freemangordon | zeq: http://hg.mozilla.org/users/romaxa_gmail.com/embedipc_queue |
| 15:25.26 | freemangordon | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Embedding/IPCLiteAPI |
| 15:28.26 | kwtm | Wow, when I reinstalled old apps from a list, I got a nice widget on my Maemo desktop screen that shows a phone dialpad where I can actually dial without going to the phone app. How can I find out what widget this is called? |
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| 15:52.49 | Sicelo | ~ugt |
| 15:52.49 | infobot | methinks ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
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| 15:57.38 | DocScrutinizer | dafaq, AsianFemale24 |
| 15:57.40 | DocScrutinizer | LOL |
| 15:58.37 | freemangordon | hmm, sounds good, where did you find her :P |
| 15:58.53 | DocScrutinizer | 10 lines up |
| 15:59.44 | DocScrutinizer | kwtm: try googling "maemo rotary dialer" |
| 16:00.04 | freemangordon | unfortunately by that time my windoze was slowly creeping south :D |
| 16:00.54 | zeq | freemangordon: that sounds like what we want if we're aiming to replace microb |
| 16:01.02 | freemangordon | yep |
| 16:01.13 | freemangordon | looks like WIP though |
| 16:01.19 | kwtm | DocScrutinizer: Thanks! But how do I, in general, find out what the widgets are on my desktop? Is there a ~/.maemo/.desktop/*.widget sort of directory/file? |
| 16:01.34 | DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: try direct nmap! ;-D [314] AsianFemale24 ~Admin 213.87.121.46 * purple purple |
| 16:02.22 | zeq | freemangordon: I wonder how that relates to native fennec? |
| 16:02.24 | freemangordon | zeq: i finally managed to turn GTK EGL acc on, unfortunately it segfaults in libEGL.so, now trying without --enable-egl-xrender-composite |
| 16:02.46 | freemangordon | zeq: most probably not related |
| 16:03.14 | freemangordon | if I got your question right |
| 16:03.19 | zeq | freemangordon: I tried to build qt with --enable-egl-xrender-composite, it didn't compile though... did you get that to work? |
| 16:03.37 | freemangordon | same here, it does not compile |
| 16:03.51 | zeq | no just me then :) |
| 16:03.52 | freemangordon | but GTK version compiles |
| 16:03.56 | zeq | s/no/not/ |
| 16:04.12 | freemangordon | unfortunatel Qt build is SLOOW with flash enabled :( |
| 16:04.32 | freemangordon | some 1-2 fps |
| 16:04.32 | zeq | I read ^^^ you've some experience with that |
| 16:04.38 | luke-jr | full Qt build is impossible on N900 natively :/ |
| 16:04.45 | freemangordon | yeah, but i was using webkit |
| 16:04.55 | freemangordon | luke-jr: what? |
| 16:05.01 | luke-jr | Qt-WebKit will lock the system swapping so hard that it watchdog-reboots |
| 16:05.03 | freemangordon | you mean on the device |
| 16:05.05 | luke-jr | yes |
| 16:05.09 | zeq | ok... I wonder why it's slow... and how relevant it is any more... |
| 16:05.21 | freemangordon | it spits something about XEmbed |
| 16:05.37 | freemangordon | not using shm or something |
| 16:05.42 | freemangordon | NFC |
| 16:05.43 | zeq | that would do it |
| 16:06.03 | zeq | if it's having to copy pixmaps around all over the place |
| 16:06.08 | freemangordon | yep |
| 16:06.25 | freemangordon | but that is strange, as webkit works pretty ok |
| 16:06.36 | zeq | must be a bug |
| 16:06.46 | freemangordon | (with some hacks) |
| 16:06.48 | zeq | something with the plugin container |
| 16:07.08 | zeq | something up* |
| 16:07.23 | freemangordon | yeah, this new IPC is lots of problems AIUI |
| 16:07.44 | freemangordon | not that we can fix it :D |
| 16:07.47 | zeq | looking at the specs now |
| 16:08.02 | freemangordon | which specs? |
| 16:08.24 | zeq | HTML5 is the future I hear ;) |
| 16:08.38 | freemangordon | aah, fennec scores pretty well, 363 or so |
| 16:09.05 | freemangordon | better than my desktop mozilla :P |
| 16:09.27 | zeq | LOL |
| 16:09.33 | zeq | fennec/qt? |
| 16:09.38 | freemangordon | yep |
| 16:10.07 | zeq | I think there's a page-loading bug with the snapshot we're using, it seems to take too long to start loading pages |
| 16:10.42 | zeq | that's pretty impressive, beating your desktop though |
| 16:11.20 | freemangordon | BTW could you pull the latest source, I saw some memty leaks fixed |
| 16:11.48 | freemangordon | zeq: well, I have all of the history disabled on my desktop, that is why ;) |
| 16:11.48 | zeq | I've got a remote setup on my local repo |
| 16:12.12 | freemangordon | so? |
| 16:12.16 | zeq | I'm actually test building rebased upstream on upstrean now |
| 16:12.19 | freemangordon | would you pull the latest? |
| 16:12.31 | freemangordon | aah, push it please |
| 16:12.50 | zeq | I'll push it to master if it works :) |
| 16:12.54 | freemangordon | i saw some gl stuff fixed too |
| 16:13.31 | zeq | build should be finished soon |
| 16:14.10 | freemangordon | ok |
| 16:16.54 | freemangordon | zeq: damn, there is this toolkit option too "cairo-gtk2-x11" |
| 16:17.12 | freemangordon | i am lost now |
| 16:17.19 | zeq | goodness knows |
| 16:17.32 | zeq | what were you using before? |
| 16:17.38 | freemangordon | cairo-gtk2 |
| 16:17.58 | zeq | you'd imagine that was the same thing..? |
| 16:18.06 | freemangordon | don't think so |
| 16:18.47 | zeq | maybe in enables x11 extensions outside the scope of gtk2? |
| 16:19.03 | freemangordon | yep |
| 16:19.50 | zeq | I'm typing really badly today :/ |
| 16:20.06 | SpeedEvil | passes zeq a finger-sharpener. |
| 16:20.18 | zeq | thanks SpeedEvil :) |
| 16:21.00 | zeq | weird errors though in/it??? I think the problem is higher level than my fingers... |
| 16:21.50 | zeq | or should that be lower-level? :) |
| 16:22.10 | freemangordon | your head or your feet? |
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| 16:24.47 | zeq | seeing if a medicinal beer helps :) |
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| 16:57.07 | DocScrutinizer | yummy, medical beer |
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| 17:05.46 | zeq | freemangordon: when I said the build should be completed soon, I'd forgotten how long a full build takes! |
| 17:06.08 | zeq | I think it's finally linking |
| 17:07.06 | zeq | I do feel much better for a medical beer! ;) |
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| 17:21.28 | FIQ | microB's UI isn't really intuitive |
| 17:21.53 | FIQ | I'm not surprised if there's still hidden features that I don't know of, that requires strange cryptic gestures |
| 17:22.54 | RiD | microB had better days |
| 17:24.09 | FIQ | I mean, *after* I''ve learned about the mouse thingy to mark text, it took me several months before I got the hang of doing it correctly |
| 17:24.21 | FIQ | before, I just randomly did things, hoping it would work |
| 17:24.57 | zeq | FIQ: serious question: how would you do it? |
| 17:25.26 | FIQ | I place my finger at the leftmost place of the phone, slowly going right before the mouse activates |
| 17:25.42 | FIQ | the leftmost, as in, before even the touch screen begins |
| 17:26.08 | RiD | i do it with the nails |
| 17:26.12 | RiD | lol |
| 17:26.24 | FIQ | I meant nails :p |
| 17:26.26 | FIQ | more precision |
| 17:26.28 | FIQ | Most genious gesture ever |
| 17:26.33 | FIQ | Who came up with that? |
| 17:27.01 | zeq | I mean how would you do it differently? |
| 17:27.40 | zeq | I actually quite like the UI, but then it did take a while to figure it out, so I can't argue with the intuitiveness of it! |
| 17:27.44 | FIQ | Oh, well, I never understanded how you did it, just that it was possible |
| 17:27.59 | FIQ | So I randomly did things before it did what I wanted |
| 17:28.16 | FIQ | I knew it was something with the left part of the screen, but not more |
| 17:28.21 | FIQ | So yeah.. :p |
| 17:28.23 | zeq | FIQ: Imagine, you could start again... What would you do to achieve the same functionality? |
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| 17:28.38 | FIQ | place it in the top menu |
| 17:29.01 | FIQ | it's slower, but at least more available |
| 17:29.04 | zeq | Like: "Activiate pointer"? |
| 17:29.17 | FIQ | that, or "mark text" :p |
| 17:29.23 | FIQ | (as is the widest usage) |
| 17:29.30 | zeq | it does more that mark text though |
| 17:29.40 | FIQ | Yes, it does, but that is the main thing, no? |
| 17:29.55 | zeq | It's *a* thing :P |
| 17:30.28 | zeq | if you need to select certain elements it's often necessary too |
| 17:31.41 | RiD | or long press, and have a feature for activate pointer |
| 17:31.53 | RiD | kinda like Opera does |
| 17:31.56 | zeq | ok, that sounds more usable |
| 17:33.02 | zeq | I still prefer the MicroB gesture though ;) |
| 17:33.15 | RiD | Me too, but the long press is not bad either |
| 17:34.00 | FIQ | the gesture is definetely usable, it's just.. not obvious at all |
| 17:34.10 | FIQ | good luck finding the feature on your own, etc |
| 17:35.09 | RiD | it took me more time to figure out the history browser lol |
| 17:35.55 | FIQ | Not me :p |
| 17:36.03 | FIQ | Mostly because I activated it by mistake all the time |
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| 17:36.34 | FIQ | And, tbh, I rarely use back/forward on microB |
| 17:36.39 | FIQ | mostly because it need a page reload |
| 17:36.55 | FIQ | and microB isn't really the fastest browser ever created... |
| 17:36.59 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Shortcuts_and_Gestures |
| 17:37.01 | DocScrutinizer | FTW |
| 17:37.08 | RiD | FIQ its starting to get really sluggish on these new pages |
| 17:37.27 | RiD | its pissing me off more and more everyday |
| 17:37.35 | FIQ | My old phone was a Sony Ericsson P1i |
| 17:37.38 | qwazix_900 | one great problem with microb is |
| 17:37.43 | FIQ | I used Opera Mobile 9.5 on it, and loved it |
| 17:38.00 | FIQ | Sure, it's probably slower *today* than microB |
| 17:38.00 | DocScrutinizer | (exists since... 04:43, 17 January 2010) |
| 17:38.01 | RiD | you can use opera on n900 too, but there's no "fullscreen" mode that only gets rid of the top bar |
| 17:38.01 | qwazix_900 | that you cant access history without loading a random page at startup |
| 17:38.05 | ShadowJK | There used to be a bookmark in the browser, which took you to a page which explained all those gestures. I think if oyu tap that bookmark today though, you get redirected to advertisements for lumia |
| 17:38.11 | FIQ | but with that stats, it was awesome |
| 17:38.31 | RiD | it always hides the bottom bar. which is why i dont use. having to switch fullscreen/windowed all time to change tab is not cool |
| 17:38.32 | FIQ | no refreshing on back/forward, fast, *proper* UI |
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| 17:38.53 | RiD | qwazix_900 that annoys me too |
| 17:39.05 | FIQ | the only problem with opera mobile 9.5 on P1i was that it was a beta, and crashed from time to time |
| 17:39.07 | qwazix_900 | I actually like the swipe for pointer but it could use an icon in the menu for new users |
| 17:39.23 | FIQ | and somehow took the OS with it.. a problem I solved when swiss manager elite came out for that OS |
| 17:40.03 | FIQ | after that, the phone was really decent, and nice, to the level that I sometimes feel that I would prefer it over microB today |
| 17:40.17 | ShadowJK | Eh, you can tap bottom right in opera and it brings up tabs, iirc? |
| 17:40.30 | RiD | ShadowJK and turns off fullscreen. |
| 17:40.46 | RiD | i once managed to get it fullscreen, without hiding the bottom bar. |
| 17:40.55 | RiD | the problem is that i could never reproduce it again |
| 17:41.26 | RiD | opera scrolling is usually more stutterish, but it always show the page and loads faster on most of the cases |
| 17:41.43 | RiD | also it doesn't incredibly bog down when showing large images, unlike microb |
| 17:41.56 | ShadowJK | Well it goes back to fullscreen once you've used the UI |
| 17:41.59 | FIQ | Delete character. Works in Notes App, entering URLs in Browser. Does not work in Abiword. |
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| 17:42.11 | FIQ | why was things like this not implemented simply as the key Delete? |
| 17:42.20 | FIQ | instead of letting apps implement it on their own |
| 17:42.32 | DocScrutinizer | ?? |
| 17:42.34 | japh | on their own? that's X |
| 17:43.00 | RiD | ShadowJK it makes switching tabs and etc very unpractical for me |
| 17:43.30 | ShadowJK | oh? |
| 17:44.01 | RiD | it's one more extra click and a screen "flash" |
| 17:44.30 | japh | I'm using vimperator in firefox. it's ok |
| 17:44.40 | japh | for some reason it didn't want to accept pentadactyl |
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| 18:05.48 | zeq | FIQ: RiD : the limitations of microb are why freemangordon and I are working on Fennec. |
| 18:06.28 | FIQ | I used fennec once, and when it crashed on the exact same page 4 times, I stopped |
| 18:06.43 | FIQ | Lagged very much |
| 18:06.46 | zeq | Ideally we'd like to re-implement a native UI like microb |
| 18:06.58 | FIQ | That being said, I tried it several months ago, maybe it's better |
| 18:07.29 | zeq | FIQ: We'll get good performance of out it. |
| 18:07.39 | qwazix_900 | zeq, did you see that new thread on tmo about native ui fennec? |
| 18:08.01 | zeq | qwazix_900: I'll take a look... |
| 18:08.21 | qwazix_900 | looks like romaxa posted sth about interfacing qt and xul |
| 18:11.41 | qwazix_900 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85191 |
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| 18:15.54 | RiD | zeq well, good luck with that :) |
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| 18:20.55 | RiD | (I was able to tell from my playswoosh sound attached to kbd slide open event) |
| 18:20.58 | RiD | tell me more about that |
| 18:21.03 | RiD | (5 hours later) |
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| 18:22.17 | zeq | freemangordon: To get html5 video working via gstreamer we need to bump the version. Can that be done while keeping the binary codecs working? |
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| 18:24.12 | zeq | freemangordon: there's a problem with my rebased fennec, it give an error "Object::connect:: No such slot MozQWidget::orientationChanged() ... I'm looking into it. |
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| 18:24.26 | freemangordon | zeq: push it |
| 18:24.41 | freemangordon | ther is no such slot, because I added it :) |
| 18:24.50 | freemangordon | in mozqwidget.h |
| 18:25.09 | freemangordon | zeq: the version of what needs to be bumped? |
| 18:25.15 | zeq | gstreamer |
| 18:25.19 | freemangordon | no way |
| 18:25.25 | freemangordon | why is that? |
| 18:25.38 | zeq | not possible? |
| 18:25.39 | freemangordon | what our gsteramer is missing |
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| 18:26.25 | freemangordon | some codec or what? |
| 18:26.27 | zeq | I haven't tried removing the configure version check to find out |
| 18:26.34 | freemangordon | aah :) |
| 18:26.43 | freemangordon | most probably it will compile |
| 18:27.01 | ShadowJK | In general, trying to do h264 in software will have pretty catastrophic performance :P |
| 18:27.27 | freemangordon | and if we lack some definitions, we could easily add them, i have some experience because of gst-dsp |
| 18:27.35 | freemangordon | ShadowJK: : nod: |
| 18:28.04 | zeq | freemangordon: I know it's essential to keep the accelerated codecs working :) |
| 18:28.12 | freemangordon | zeq: please push the new version :) |
| 18:28.22 | freemangordon | zeq: we will, i promise |
| 18:28.32 | freemangordon | even with our outdated gstreamer |
| 18:29.03 | freemangordon | what we need is gst-dsp and i have some experience with it ;) |
| 18:29.33 | freemangordon | zeq: in case you are not aware - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=77695&highlight=720p |
| 18:29.43 | freemangordon | :P |
| 18:30.54 | zeq | Just need a higher res screen ;) |
| 18:31.10 | freemangordon | no, you don't it is down-sampled |
| 18:31.20 | zeq | I know :) |
| 18:31.33 | zeq | it's a shame it doesn't have HDMI out though |
| 18:32.10 | freemangordon | yeah. and it is even bigger shame that it does not have HDMI oou given the HW is capable of |
| 18:32.32 | freemangordon | are you pushing the new version :P |
| 18:32.34 | zeq | freemangordon: can you check the repo is ok? |
| 18:32.52 | freemangordon | doing git pull |
| 18:33.02 | zeq | ok |
| 18:33.54 | freemangordon | widget/qt/faststartupqt/nsFastStartupQt.cpp: needs update |
| 18:33.54 | freemangordon | widget/qt/nsWindow.cpp: needs update |
| 18:33.54 | freemangordon | widget/xpwidgets/nsBaseWidget.cpp: needs update |
| 18:34.06 | zeq | git status |
| 18:34.07 | freemangordon | here are your missing functions |
| 18:34.14 | zeq | damn |
| 18:34.40 | zeq | not sure how that happened |
| 18:34.52 | freemangordon | I will merge the changes and will put them back |
| 18:34.54 | zeq | ok |
| 18:34.56 | zeq | thanks |
| 18:40.24 | freemangordon | zeq, don't know what is wrong on your side, once i reverted changes i did aftel last commit, everything merged just fine |
| 18:40.44 | freemangordon | there was some debug code i added |
| 18:40.50 | zeq | oh ok |
| 18:40.58 | freemangordon | so there is nothing to push |
| 18:41.02 | zeq | update was fine then? |
| 18:41.06 | freemangordon | yep |
| 18:41.18 | zeq | that's something :P |
| 18:41.23 | freemangordon | you may try git rest --hard HEAD |
| 18:41.34 | freemangordon | lleme check if it is still buildable |
| 18:41.47 | freemangordon | git reset --hard HEAD |
| 18:44.24 | freemangordon | hmm, don't like that note: |
| 18:44.26 | zeq | I was previously testing on a local branch. It could have been resolved when I moved to master |
| 18:44.26 | freemangordon | # depend on >= 0.10.33 as that's when the playbin2 source-setup signal was |
| 18:44.36 | freemangordon | :( |
| 18:44.46 | freemangordon | anyway, it is for the future |
| 18:45.47 | freemangordon | build started, lets see how it will end :) |
| 18:46.39 | zeq | :fingers crossed: |
| 18:46.47 | freemangordon | zeq: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/gstreamer-commits/2011-February/047159.html |
| 18:47.01 | freemangordon | we can just backport that (if it is not already there |
| 18:47.03 | freemangordon | ) |
| 18:47.51 | freemangordon | also i like this note from the patch: This is functionally equivalent to connecting to the notify::source signal, but more convenient. |
| 18:48.11 | freemangordon | it tells me that we ca workaround it for maemo5 |
| 18:48.22 | freemangordon | s/ca /can / |
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| 18:49.27 | zeq | it doesn't seem insumountable |
| 18:50.24 | freemangordon | what a compilicated word, thank you google translate :D:D:D |
| 18:50.56 | zeq | :) |
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| 18:54.20 | freemangordon | zeq: btw which fennec version is that? |
| 18:54.27 | freemangordon | 16a1 again? |
| 18:54.52 | zeq | I don't think they bumped it |
| 18:55.28 | freemangordon | ok |
| 18:56.24 | freemangordon | Pali: any progress? |
| 18:56.35 | freemangordon | :( |
| 18:56.40 | freemangordon | WTF? |
| 18:57.09 | freemangordon | zeq: saw my query? |
| 18:57.43 | zeq | freemangordon: same version AFAIK |
| 18:58.04 | freemangordon | for fennec? |
| 18:58.31 | zeq | seems to be |
| 18:58.36 | freemangordon | aah, ok |
| 18:58.58 | freemangordon | again: did you see my query (query as PM in IRC) |
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| 19:10.32 | Timmy | when i try to flash a kernel via x-term i face this problem: could not connect to '127.0.0.1' what's the problem? |
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| 19:59.48 | freemangordon | zeq: this version is broken :( |
| 20:00.04 | freemangordon | withouw HW acceleration it is slow |
| 20:00.13 | freemangordon | need to find what broke it |
| 20:02.58 | zeq | :( |
| 20:03.33 | zeq | bisection is going to be fun |
| 20:03.54 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 20:04.09 | SpeedEvil | wonders if chronological bisection would be better. |
| 20:04.29 | SpeedEvil | As most of the time, your subsystem is not going to be the one being patched |
| 20:04.37 | zeq | SpeedEvil: the trouble is the build-time ... |
| 20:04.42 | SpeedEvil | I guess. |
| 20:04.55 | zeq | SpeedEvil: I mean whatever method |
| 20:05.30 | zeq | we need to look for a suspicious commit |
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| 20:07.43 | SpeedEvil | Is this kernel? |
| 20:08.15 | freemangordon | fennec |
| 20:08.22 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 20:08.23 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 20:08.31 | freemangordon | even worse :) |
| 20:08.31 | SpeedEvil | that does take a rather longer time to build. |
| 20:08.44 | SpeedEvil | Assuming it's about the same as firefox |
| 20:08.46 | zeq | especially in scratchbox! |
| 20:09.11 | SpeedEvil | I assume you can't duplicate the bug in x86, running remotely? |
| 20:09.14 | freemangordon | yeah :( |
| 20:09.22 | freemangordon | SpeedEvil: nfc |
| 20:10.08 | freemangordon | zeq: the good news is that HW acceleration is smoother and crashes rarely |
| 20:10.17 | freemangordon | (i.e. when enabled) |
| 20:10.19 | zeq | with qt? |
| 20:10.24 | freemangordon | yep |
| 20:10.31 | zeq | ok, that's something :) |
| 20:10.40 | zeq | obviously being worked on |
| 20:10.57 | zeq | maybe that's what broke non-hw accel |
| 20:11.02 | zeq | :S |
| 20:11.03 | freemangordon | could be |
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| 20:11.24 | freemangordon | anyway, I am afk for a while |
| 20:11.59 | zeq | freemangordon: np |
| 20:12.28 | freemangordon | zeq; I wonder should we prepare a patch agains previous tree |
| 20:12.56 | freemangordon | (and who will prepare it :) ) |
| 20:13.02 | freemangordon | is afk |
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| 21:47.00 | vi__ | is upgrading to thumb... |
| 21:47.31 | LaoLang_cool | what is the thumb? |
| 21:49.08 | vi__ | thumb is the most exciting thing to happen since overclocking... |
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| 21:50.38 | vi__ | brb |
| 21:51.57 | DocScrutinizer | lol |
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| 21:52.37 | DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: thumb(-2) is an alternative command set known by ATM CPU |
| 21:52.40 | DocScrutinizer | ARM* |
| 21:53.17 | DocScrutinizer | it's supposed to be some 20% smaller in codesize than genuine ARM instructionset code |
| 21:53.35 | Macer | blah. i'd really like to get some caps to replace the bad ones on this board |
| 21:55.15 | DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: so freemangordon is our steve jobs explaining to us the benefits of moving a whole OS to a different "architecture" (well, the analogy to powerPC->intel architecture switch of macOS is not that perfect, but you might get the idea) |
| 21:55.39 | Macer | heh |
| 21:55.44 | Macer | misses ppc based stuff |
| 21:56.06 | Macer | i feel like buying ibm based stuff just to make a ppc system |
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| 21:57.41 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: make damn sure you get special low-ESR types of capacitors (if those are - usually - the caps in switch mode PSU of CPU) |
| 21:58.43 | DocScrutinizer | 'nomal' electrolytic C will survive something between seconds and days under those 100s of A DC |
| 21:59.06 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: probably a little longer than that ;) |
| 21:59.16 | DocScrutinizer | depends |
| 21:59.23 | Macer | not to mention the "low-esr" ones were the ones the taiwanese were throwing out into the world |
| 21:59.27 | Macer | which is why these are bad to begin with |
| 21:59.54 | DocScrutinizer | yep, known issue, though I thought this story is >10 years old |
| 22:00.05 | Macer | yah heh |
| 22:00.25 | Macer | >15 now it seems ;) |
| 22:00.45 | DocScrutinizer | sounds about correct |
| 22:01.24 | DocScrutinizer | meanwhile a lot of board manufs use ceramic C for that |
| 22:01.45 | Macer | yeah well.. shuttle didn't ;) |
| 22:01.54 | Macer | i got the board in 2008 and in 2009 it broke |
| 22:02.02 | Macer | i never really investigated it too much until today |
| 22:02.04 | DocScrutinizer | hey, I got several hundered 350uF here ;-D |
| 22:02.17 | Macer | and noticed that all of a certain type of cap are broken |
| 22:02.18 | DocScrutinizer | X7R or sth |
| 22:02.29 | Macer | well. these are 6.7v/1800uF |
| 22:02.50 | Macer | some looked good until i noticed they were raised up off the board heh |
| 22:02.59 | Macer | ie: top vent wasn't bulging |
| 22:03.08 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, usual |
| 22:03.32 | Macer | ah well.. my buddy works as an electronic engineer for a medical equipment company and is going to order me some to replace them |
| 22:03.36 | DocScrutinizer | sometimes you can tell as they seem to stand in a puddle of own pee |
| 22:03.42 | Macer | it's for a shuttle k45 ;) |
| 22:03.50 | Macer | well.. none of them seemed to leak |
| 22:04.12 | Macer | just bulge and die i suppose |
| 22:05.09 | DocScrutinizer | let's see... 5 of my 350uF should nicely replace one of your obsolete elcos ;-D |
| 22:05.31 | DocScrutinizer | I literally got hundereds of them |
| 22:05.36 | DocScrutinizer | a whole reel |
| 22:05.49 | Macer | er... i figured these things were kind of specific weren't they? |
| 22:05.54 | Macer | have to match them up or something? |
| 22:06.16 | DocScrutinizer | nah, ceramic X7R should just do fine |
| 22:06.25 | DocScrutinizer | esp when using 5 in parallel |
| 22:06.46 | Macer | or just non-crap caps ;) |
| 22:06.48 | Macer | would work too |
| 22:07.08 | Macer | they are just the lame "counterfeit" taiwanese ones i'm sure |
| 22:07.14 | DocScrutinizer | dang, again no dump for those critters |
| 22:07.16 | Macer | i bet if they were REAL japanese caps they'd still be fine ;) |
| 22:07.46 | Macer | i honestly dont' know much about electronics tbh |
| 22:09.02 | Macer | just enough to desolder/resolder some new caps on :) |
| 22:09.41 | DocScrutinizer | so let me tell you about the difference: while normal cheap elcos have a series impedance of up to several ohms @ 1MHz, those low-ESR types are supposed to have max 1/00 of that |
| 22:09.44 | DocScrutinizer | 1/100 |
| 22:10.40 | Macer | http://us.shuttle.com/scgforum/tm.aspx?m=3212 |
| 22:10.51 | Macer | that is exactly what is wrong with my same exact board ;) |
| 22:11.06 | DocScrutinizer | and the effective AC current running thru them is actually up to 100s of Ampere, in those CCPU regulators |
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| 22:11.42 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: but if the caps were not crap ones don't they still have a much longer life regardless.. somewhere around 10-15 years? |
| 22:12.58 | DocScrutinizer | the high virtual Effective ohms Series Resistence impedance together with the high AC will heat the C up to the point where it boils and bursts |
| 22:13.47 | DocScrutinizer | this can happen after seconds, or after months |
| 22:13.59 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: these bad ones lasted over year ;) |
| 22:14.09 | DocScrutinizer | since the boiling/heating increases ESR further |
| 22:14.24 | DocScrutinizer | so it's a runaway effect |
| 22:14.30 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: like i said tho.. isn't it more a manufacturing problem where the chemistry to make them was wrong? |
| 22:14.39 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 22:14.45 | DocScrutinizer | possible |
| 22:14.51 | Macer | ie: good quality caps last 10-15 years whereas bad ones last 10-15 months? |
| 22:14.53 | DocScrutinizer | or they were mere fakes |
| 22:15.08 | Macer | i'd consider bad chemistry to be fakes ;) |
| 22:15.51 | Macer | rumor was that the taiwanese companies got an incomplete formula |
| 22:16.03 | Macer | that they stole from the japanese lol |
| 22:16.24 | DocScrutinizer | quite usual problem is leaking sealing, resulting in electrolyte literally evaporating |
| 22:17.16 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, sounds more like mainland china, but yes. Sounds familiar |
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| 22:17.57 | DocScrutinizer | actually meanwhile Taiwan is hightech |
| 22:19.17 | DocScrutinizer | which doesn't mean you can't find counterfeit crap there, just manufacturing usually is done at mainland china nowadays, as the personal costs like 1/10 there |
| 22:20.10 | Macer | well... these caps didn't leak.. they just bulged and died |
| 22:20.25 | Macer | which i guess is a better case for repair |
| 22:20.36 | DocScrutinizer | that's what they always do finally |
| 22:20.52 | Macer | i would assume depending on the problem some explode |
| 22:20.55 | Macer | even with a vent heh |
| 22:21.22 | DocScrutinizer | well, yes. Some leak after bulging |
| 22:21.29 | Macer | i'm curious |
| 22:21.39 | Macer | i have a plasma television with half the display no longer working |
| 22:21.50 | DocScrutinizer | ouch |
| 22:21.54 | Macer | it works for a while then turns on and off and on and off .. maybe i should look for bad caps on that as well |
| 22:22.07 | DocScrutinizer | quite possible |
| 22:22.10 | Macer | the screen itself is fine |
| 22:22.17 | Macer | it's one of the boards that is messed up |
| 22:22.29 | Macer | and it is actually quite easy to take apart |
| 22:23.36 | DocScrutinizer | just please be careful! there's really nasty high voltage in those |
| 22:23.47 | Macer | yeah.. i'll let it discharge for a day heh |
| 22:23.56 | DocScrutinizer | even then |
| 22:24.03 | Macer | i actually tried tap testing it to see if it were a loose connection |
| 22:24.07 | Macer | couldn't find it by doing that :-/ |
| 22:24.44 | DocScrutinizer | you might want to "clean" the whole solder side of PCB with some black conductive foam |
| 22:25.15 | DocScrutinizer | to discharge any C, prior to touching anything with your unprotected fingers |
| 22:26.33 | DocScrutinizer | I got shocked by PSUs that were in a drawer for weeks(!) |
| 22:27.05 | Macer | wow really? LOL |
| 22:27.29 | Macer | i figured the internal led would discharge everything |
| 22:28.06 | DocScrutinizer | there are several voltage domains. Some have no real discharge path once the device is shutdown |
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| 22:30.10 | Macer | the bulging caps keep a charge? :) |
| 22:30.36 | DocScrutinizer | quite possibly that's particularly the case for high voltage supply domain in a plasma screen, where gas discharge won't happen for any voltage <1000V at all |
| 22:30.52 | DocScrutinizer | nope, those quite likely won't |
| 22:31.14 | Macer | the plasma has an awesome picture too |
| 22:32.16 | Macer | well.. i'll open it up and see if i see any bad ones |
| 22:32.33 | Macer | if i don't i'll have to track down the board that controls the left side of the screen |
| 22:32.40 | Macer | and see about replacing it.. usually the boards are pretty cheap |
| 22:32.42 | DocScrutinizer | put left hand in your pocket |
| 22:32.45 | Macer | i guess it is the screen that is expensive |
| 22:33.03 | Macer | how about my right? ;) i'm left handed |
| 22:33.31 | DocScrutinizer | doesn't matter unless your inner organs are mirrored |
| 22:33.53 | DocScrutinizer | left hand as heart is left side |
| 22:34.27 | Macer | heh |
| 22:38.46 | DocScrutinizer | or you press a sheet of black conductive foam against the solder side of PCB, as I suggested above (preferably use a pliers with isolating coating handles for that) |
| 22:40.11 | DocScrutinizer | a few seconds should suffice to discharge any C |
| 22:42.40 | DocScrutinizer | scnr: you got the right to protect your left |
| 22:44.02 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, probably not as funny as I thought |
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| 22:45.45 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: all ok with that "support my work (donate)" link? |
| 22:45.47 | vi__ | is now rocking the new thumb kernel |
| 22:45.58 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: (actually never been used by anybody so far) |
| 22:47.24 | DocScrutinizer | vi__: I hope you're doing proper free et al logs, before/after |
| 22:48.23 | SpeedEvil | Black conductive foam may do essentially nothing. |
| 22:48.27 | SpeedEvil | If it's just antistatic. |
| 22:48.32 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
| 22:48.44 | SpeedEvil | It will not significantly discharge capacitors if it's megohms per square |
| 22:49.00 | DocScrutinizer | I recently tested mine here for ~10k, amazingly independent of distance between probes |
| 22:49.11 | SpeedEvil | It varies a lot |
| 22:49.43 | SpeedEvil | You get static dissipative - at a few megohms per square typically - this is to make sure no charge can build up itn the packing. |
| 22:49.50 | DocScrutinizer | well ok, it's the "hard" variant |
| 22:50.03 | SpeedEvil | And you get 'conductive' at a few hundreds to thousands of ohms |
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| 22:50.14 | SpeedEvil | probably there is a continuum |
| 22:50.55 | DocScrutinizer | :nod: |
| 22:51.37 | DocScrutinizer | the very cosy soft version quite possibly isolates more than it conducts |
| 22:52.11 | DocScrutinizer | or it is completely unrelated, who knows |
| 22:52.42 | DocScrutinizer | use a damp cloth ;-P |
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