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| 00:39.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | LaoLang_cool: wouldn't know of any trivial method |
| 00:40.02 | LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer05, ok... |
| 00:44.43 | Estel_ | pity that lazarus for recovery and spell checking doesn't work, - I've had high hopes for that I've 58 MB free on rootfs... |
| 00:45.09 | Estel_ | And I wonder wht could I move *to* rootfs, for sake of increasing performance |
| 00:45.48 | Estel_ | any ideas what sits in opt usually, and would benefit from NAND speeds? (i.e. isn't executable, that sits in RAM anyway) |
| 00:46.13 | Hurrian | Estel_, xorg? |
| 00:46.26 | Estel_ | isn't there already? |
| 00:47.11 | Estel_ | btw, xorg sits in RAM anyway, yep? |
| 00:47.23 | Hurrian | yeah |
| 00:47.39 | Hurrian | hmm, something slow, that gets unloaded a lot |
| 00:47.44 | Hurrian | the settings app? |
| 00:47.56 | Estel_ | sounds reasonable |
| 00:48.05 | Estel_ | now must locate, where it live ;) |
| 00:48.34 | Estel_ | no core system components, I suppose... |
| 00:48.48 | Estel_ | maybe something from easy debian? :P |
| 00:49.06 | Hurrian | dpkg -L (name of settings app) |
| 00:49.15 | Estel_ | nods |
| 00:49.29 | Hurrian | also, Estel_, have you seen the new overclocking and kernel-power pages? |
| 00:49.37 | Estel_ | now need to determine name of settings app |
| 00:49.44 | Estel_ | overlocking yes, kp not yet |
| 00:49.50 | Estel_ | will check with pleasure |
| 00:50.02 | LaoLang_cool | Is there a way to export only one event? |
| 00:54.01 | Estel_ | Hurrian, You were the one who wasn't able to get high speeds of chromium in easy debian? |
| 00:54.37 | Hurrian | Estel_, it wasn't me |
| 00:54.44 | Hurrian | I don't use chromium in the first place |
| 00:54.51 | Estel_ | nods |
| 00:58.13 | Hurrian | freemangordon, are you still here? |
| 00:58.40 | Hurrian | is curious as to why Maemo on MMC won't work with power management enabled |
| 01:01.42 | Sc0rpius | wow at last |
| 01:02.01 | Sc0rpius | I could finally code to close the virtual keyboard |
| 01:02.12 | Sc0rpius | when you press enter on it |
| 01:02.16 | Sc0rpius | that was HARD |
| 01:02.22 | Sc0rpius | it took me a whole day! |
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| 01:12.16 | Estel_ | :) |
| 01:12.50 | Estel_ | hm, strange - chromium is actualy faster, when run from within lxde, that Maemo (both easy debian one) |
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| 01:13.19 | Estel_ | not to mention, that context menu works even in fullscreen, when run from lxde |
| 01:13.54 | Estel_ | the latter was known fact - as for first, I always though it's placebo, as it seemed to me, that running without middle-man will be faster |
| 01:14.17 | Estel_ | although, apprently, it isn't - from within lxde it' really blazing fast |
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| 01:23.15 | luke-jr | Estel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/Gentoo/N900 |
| 01:23.49 | luke-jr | Estel_: re LXDE vs Maemo Chromium speed: I bet it's the swap |
| 01:23.58 | luke-jr | Estel_: Maemo uses a LOT of memory, even compared to KDE |
| 01:29.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | luke-jr: maemo? I'd say dialer and browserd and whatnot are using a lot of RAM, due to preload and lock against swapout |
| 01:30.21 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer05: part of Maemo |
| 01:30.48 | SpeedEvil | A phone without dialer locked in RAM... |
| 01:31.25 | Hurrian | SpeedEvil, "internet tablet" |
| 01:31.36 | Hurrian | pretty big oversight by nokia though |
| 01:32.20 | DocScrutinizer51 | Hurrian: ?? what is an oversight? |
| 01:34.19 | Hurrian | DocScrutinizer, not locking the phone app in RAM |
| 01:34.35 | DocScrutinizer51 | damn, it IS |
| 01:35.18 | Hurrian | 31820 rtcom-call-ui |
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| 01:35.21 | Hurrian | oh, I guess it is |
| 01:36.15 | SpeedEvil | (the architechure requiring the CPU to be involved in calls, and other things are questionable too, of course |
| 01:37.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | you'll always need CPU involved into handling call establishing |
| 01:37.42 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 01:38.04 | SpeedEvil | But audio processing in a call, is arguable. |
| 01:38.11 | SpeedEvil | Argh. |
| 01:38.22 | SpeedEvil | hates random sones from one of the 8 gadgets. |
| 01:38.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | indeed |
| 01:38.26 | SpeedEvil | sounds |
| 01:38.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | the AP-centric audio concept is highly questionable |
| 01:38.52 | jacekowski | you need something to decompress it |
| 01:39.08 | SpeedEvil | jacekowski: the phone CPU does not do decompression. |
| 01:39.25 | SpeedEvil | It basically just hands off audio packets to the phone |
| 01:39.27 | jacekowski | well, how else would you then change destination of audio |
| 01:39.44 | jacekowski | it's nice thing to have all go into one chip |
| 01:39.48 | jacekowski | and then go out of it |
| 01:40.02 | jacekowski | except it should have been done in alsa directly |
| 01:40.09 | jacekowski | without pulsecrap |
| 01:40.31 | DocScrutinizer51 | if the one chip was the mixer, I'd agree |
| 01:42.07 | jacekowski | on n900, you have to send phone calls at least 4 different ways, BT, headphones, earpiece and main speakers |
| 01:42.13 | jacekowski | + possibly FMTX |
| 01:42.41 | DocScrutinizer51 | well, that's what mixer/codec is for |
| 01:43.10 | jacekowski | thing is, you have AP that can do the job |
| 01:43.20 | DocScrutinizer51 | usually no need to pipe it thru CPU |
| 01:43.21 | jacekowski | and without PA it could do it easily |
| 01:43.24 | jacekowski | even at highest load |
| 01:43.45 | jacekowski | so there is no point in adding additional electronics if you have everything you need |
| 01:44.21 | jacekowski | it's more of an implementaion problem than design |
| 01:44.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | you already have a mixer/codec |
| 01:44.36 | jacekowski | very limited one |
| 01:45.09 | jacekowski | anyways |
| 01:45.11 | jacekowski | i'm going to sleep |
| 01:45.14 | jacekowski | good night |
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| 04:35.53 | ds3 | anyone still looking into a compass for the N900? |
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| 05:56.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds3: honestly I'm afraid there are too many magnets in N900 |
| 05:56.51 | ds3 | DocScrutinizer05: hmmmm... I was looking at a little plugin module on the outside |
| 05:57.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | place a paperclip near the N900 and see for yourself |
| 05:57.56 | ds3 | I can get a magnetometer around it to measure it |
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| 05:58.35 | ds3 | but I suspect if the chip has a large enough dynamic range, that can be calibrated out |
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| 05:58.48 | k273 | http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/10/us-navy-picks-linux-for-unmanned-vtol-drones/ |
| 05:59.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | for some of the magnets you can calibrate out the offset if the magnetometer chip has sufficient dynamic range |
| 05:59.24 | ds3 | yep |
| 05:59.34 | doc|home | k273: someone should hit them up for a repo |
| 05:59.42 | ds3 | there is a project out there about using the audio jack to interface sensors |
| 05:59.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | for some you can't, like kbd slide, probably vibrator motor, stand magnet |
| 05:59.54 | ds3 | so a tiny little nub sticking out of the audio jack might be one way |
| 06:00.05 | k273 | hi doc|home, this is DocScrutinizer05 from home, right? |
| 06:00.09 | k273 | or no? |
| 06:00.14 | doc|home | k273: nope, different one |
| 06:00.17 | k273 | ok |
| 06:00.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 06:00.20 | k273 | ok |
| 06:00.45 | ds3 | DocScrutinizer05: let's say that can be made to work, is there anyone else interested in having a compass? |
| 06:01.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd bet there are |
| 06:01.11 | k273 | I am interested, but doubt will use it that often, |
| 06:01.13 | k273 | ... |
| 06:01.33 | ds3 | a compass would let you have a fixed orientation |
| 06:01.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | sensor at AV plug has a hard time getting powered |
| 06:01.51 | ds3 | much rather do things Linux style instead of the Android hack |
| 06:02.05 | ds3 | there is a design out there that can get about 5mW |
| 06:02.11 | ds3 | 5mW can run some mag sensors |
| 06:02.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, possible |
| 06:02.43 | ds3 | was reading a paper where someone had a full setup |
| 06:02.58 | ds3 | Left channel for power, Right channel for data in, Mic for data out (relative to the sensor) |
| 06:03.12 | ds3 | for a mag, pull power from left and right together and double the power |
| 06:04.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd rather use USB |
| 06:05.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | WAAAAY cleaner design |
| 06:05.25 | ds3 | but USB is much more complex |
| 06:05.32 | ds3 | and you need the host mode hacks |
| 06:05.38 | ds3 | and you loose the ability to charge |
| 06:05.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
| 06:06.15 | ds3 | to be really useful, the mag needs its ownaccelerometer |
| 06:06.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | 1) no. 2) correct. 3) well, depends |
| 06:06.37 | ds3 | you got a 1 chip solution for SPI or I2C to USB? |
| 06:06.47 | ds3 | most 1 chip sol'n are for UART |
| 06:06.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | several, iirc |
| 06:06.58 | ds3 | Oh? who? |
| 06:07.26 | ds3 | who makes one I mean |
| 06:07.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can bitbang I2C via FTDI chip, and that's a solution I see while not yet awake |
| 06:08.20 | ds3 | Hmmmm |
| 06:08.47 | ds3 | still remember battery life issues with host mode though...has that been solved? |
| 06:09.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | battery life issues quite likely are system immanent: 200mA@5V |
| 06:09.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | if your plug doesn't use those, they won't drain battery |
| 06:10.17 | ds3 | right now with my original battery, I am barely getting 4-5hours on 3G :( |
| 06:10.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB controller on SoC though is also a bit of a energy hog |
| 06:10.50 | ds3 | maybe it is what the code did, I remember having rapid battery drain after just trying host mode. a reboot seems to fix that |
| 06:11.02 | ds3 | similar to what I saw on the N800 |
| 06:11.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: 5h on 3G sounds about right |
| 06:11.17 | ds3 | really? |
| 06:11.30 | ds3 | I used to see almost 8h when it was brand new |
| 06:11.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | depend on data volume |
| 06:12.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | pattern |
| 06:12.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | dist to BTS |
| 06:12.18 | ds3 | this is idle just checking email, didn't think that changed much |
| 06:12.30 | ds3 | does 3G vs 3.5G make a difference? |
| 06:12.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | you never know for sure about inbound data |
| 06:12.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 06:12.59 | ds3 | I see |
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| 06:14.12 | ds3 | the other argument for the audio jack is, might be able to get some interest from non N900 folks |
| 06:14.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure thing |
| 06:14.37 | ds3 | think host mode is still rare |
| 06:14.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yup |
| 06:15.03 | ds3 | and I donno of anyone selling solder on USB micro connectors |
| 06:15.17 | ds3 | solder on male ones that is |
| 06:15.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | most nifty design however was the magmeter-uSD |
| 06:15.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I got two builds here |
| 06:16.01 | ds3 | builds of? |
| 06:16.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | one was sold to me though with comment "last one" |
| 06:16.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB plugs |
| 06:16.34 | ds3 | and that one solders onto a PCB? |
| 06:16.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 06:16.57 | ds3 | oh |
| 06:17.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | you'd need to come up with a non-standard design |
| 06:17.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems easy |
| 06:17.19 | ds3 | it'd involve gluing |
| 06:17.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | solder it |
| 06:17.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | still |
| 06:17.41 | ds3 | the ones I have seen are not amendable to soldering |
| 06:17.45 | ds3 | there is a sheild blocking it |
| 06:18.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | solder the shield, connect by wire |
| 06:18.19 | ds3 | Ohhhh like that |
| 06:18.59 | ds3 | interesting |
| 06:19.09 | ds3 | but that'd require a pass through to handle power/charging, right? |
| 06:19.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, unless you build in a barrel connector or 2nd USB female for charger... |
| 06:20.24 | ds3 | hmmm that could work |
| 06:20.37 | ds3 | the charging current would be a nasty H field to calibrate out though |
| 06:20.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see another argument for AV: it's more sturdy, at least on N900 |
| 06:21.20 | ds3 | the AV jack route looks idiot proof for prototyping... build it, check to see if there is power...then the rest is a MSP430 talking to a SPI or I2C bus |
| 06:21.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | (field) not if you run VBUS and GND in parallel and close to each other |
| 06:21.53 | ds3 | I donno if htat is enough, saw 'issues' on another design relating to it |
| 06:22.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm rather sure the N900 itself will give you more (field) trouble |
| 06:23.02 | ds3 | more reason to figure a way of quicky rigging something up to test that |
| 06:23.23 | ds3 | has anyone attempted the uSD mag design yet? |
| 06:23.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | mini toy compass ? ;-D |
| 06:23.45 | ds3 | no, with real mag chips |
| 06:23.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, I think SpeedEvil looked into it |
| 06:24.06 | ds3 | got access to a few PhDs that can help with the calibration issues |
| 06:24.14 | ds3 | so that part I can get help on |
| 06:24.22 | k273 | gtggys |
| 06:24.24 | k273 | cya |
| 06:24.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | as long as the fields are static and don't saturate the sensor, it's no real issue |
| 06:25.17 | ds3 | even opening a keyboard can be handled |
| 06:25.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have concerns against both preconditions |
| 06:25.33 | ds3 | it is 'static' in a way |
| 06:25.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 06:25.51 | ds3 | I doubt the magnets on there are more then 1-2G if even that |
| 06:26.53 | ds3 | there are common mags out there that can handle 8-16G's of dynamic range |
| 06:26.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | vib motor might be a bitch |
| 06:27.15 | ds3 | true...where is it physically? |
| 06:27.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | luckily vib is next to power button |
| 06:27.41 | ds3 | so we got stuff to the 3rd power working for us there |
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| 06:28.58 | ds3 | what kind of update rate on the mag is reasonable? |
| 06:29.05 | ds3 | 10Hz? 50Hz? 100Hz? |
| 06:29.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 06:29.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends I'd say |
| 06:29.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually 10Hz should be more than enough, no? |
| 06:29.58 | ds3 | I have seen devices with updates as slow as 3Hz |
| 06:30.04 | ds3 | so I just donno |
| 06:30.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you wanna use it for Wii-like controller, you want 50..100 |
| 06:31.15 | ds3 | hmmm |
| 06:31.27 | ds3 | the problem is the faster it goes, the more power is needed |
| 06:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously |
| 06:31.54 | ds3 | each measurement is about 12bytes |
| 06:32.05 | ds3 | the paper for the AV interface suggests a 300bps interface |
| 06:32.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know those from N9 |
| 06:32.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL WUT? |
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| 06:33.01 | ds3 | it is doing a modem with a MSP430 |
| 06:33.07 | ds3 | and running on like 5mW |
| 06:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | OUCH! |
| 06:33.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd run RLL or MFM encoding straight away, via those audio lines |
| 06:34.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | should at least be worth 9.6k |
| 06:34.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably 19k |
| 06:34.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe more |
| 06:34.24 | ds3 | hmmmm |
| 06:34.39 | ds3 | donno if enough CPUpower is available |
| 06:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | definitely |
| 06:35.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you run that msp430 at 32k clock |
| 06:35.33 | ds3 | how are you thinking of generating the MFM signals? |
| 06:35.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | algorithm |
| 06:35.46 | ds3 | through the ADC block or? |
| 06:35.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | on N900 side? sure |
| 06:36.07 | ds3 | no, on the MSP430 side |
| 06:36.14 | ds3 | the N900 is pretty easy...lots of CPU there |
| 06:36.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, plain GPIO |
| 06:36.38 | ds3 | got a library? signal processing is not my strong suit |
| 06:36.47 | ds3 | I can get the HW going and do ports but..... |
| 06:37.04 | ds3 | I am still looking for a simple way of doing FSK decoding :D |
| 06:37.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSK decoding way more complex than straight RLL decoding |
| 06:38.09 | ds3 | doesn't direct RLL require DC coupling? |
| 06:38.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 06:38.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's the point of RLL |
| 06:38.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | wiki Run Length Limited |
| 06:38.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki Run Length Limited |
| 06:39.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | the last sentence says it all |
| 06:39.10 | ds3 | I looked at that |
| 06:39.34 | ds3 | and I don't see a lower bound on what frequency the channel must pass |
| 06:39.50 | ds3 | the usage of the term 'DC' is a mistake on my part |
| 06:39.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | the max run length |
| 06:40.16 | ds3 | thinking of something like audio systems might high pass some at some frequency |
| 06:40.52 | ds3 | Oh you mean use the max lenght of the 0's or 1's as a limiter on the min. freq? |
| 06:40.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think usually max RL is ~5 bits |
| 06:41.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 06:41.14 | ds3 | hmm seems complicated |
| 06:41.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ??? |
| 06:41.26 | ds3 | wouldn't know how to pick that out of a stream sampled by ALSA |
| 06:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't use any limiter |
| 06:42.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | you get a square wave shaped signal and you detect edges |
| 06:42.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | simple as that |
| 06:42.37 | ds3 | yes but I don't see a square wave. I see a sampled version of that through ALSA. one that might be filtered and shaped by the audio circuit |
| 06:42.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
| 06:43.03 | ds3 | this is driving the mic signal |
| 06:43.11 | ds3 | or do you have another way for the N900 to see that? |
| 06:43.38 | Sc0rpius | tmo down with Database error? |
| 06:43.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, you'll have to go the hard way and inspect your .wav for FF and 00 values |
| 06:43.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather >a0 and <30 |
| 06:44.07 | ds3 | OHhhhhhh |
| 06:44.29 | ds3 | Hmmm |
| 06:45.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | or, for s16le, for positive and negative |
| 06:45.19 | ds3 | well... if I can get it work w/the stock 300bps modem, I'll pester you on how to get RLL going :D |
| 06:45.27 | ds3 | it is all sw at that point |
| 06:45.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem is WAAAY harder |
| 06:45.52 | ds3 | yes, but the folks who did it wrote the code |
| 06:46.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 06:46.08 | ds3 | I know how to port, I am not an expert at signal processing |
| 06:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | see this app called, err.... magreader |
| 06:46.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | all you need already in place ;-P |
| 06:46.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | incl AV |
| 06:46.43 | ds3 | oh okay |
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| 06:47.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you will be capable of creating a signal at least as stable and exact in timing and shape as that produced by a magnet head when you pull a credit card - will you? |
| 06:48.00 | ds3 | yes |
| 06:48.08 | ds3 | is a CC strip considered to be MFM or RLL? |
| 06:48.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | technicall I guess it's lilke MFM, roughly |
| 06:48.35 | ds3 | I've done mag strip stuff so I understand that :D |
| 06:49.10 | ds3 | MFM and RLL are to me hard drive encodings |
| 06:49.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, they were mainly used for that |
| 06:49.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | but a HDD is also a mag medium pulled under a magsensor head |
| 06:49.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 06:50.09 | ds3 | good point... lost sight of those ancient drives |
| 06:50.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's why they used MFM or RLL |
| 06:50.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | as a coil in magnet head needs flux change |
| 06:50.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | to create signal |
| 06:50.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | imanently DC averse |
| 06:50.54 | ds3 | yes. |
| 06:51.09 | ds3 | i remember that from mag strips... write HC11 code to decode them before |
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| 06:56.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | 2% of net income! Plus acknowledgements ;-P |
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| 07:04.55 | ds3 | :) |
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| 09:08.19 | phryk | How can I read out a wpa key my n900 device has saved? |
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| 09:13.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | stored in gconf |
| 09:13.38 | DocScrutinizer51 | I posted a mini-howto to tmo long ago |
| 09:13.58 | phryk | tmo? |
| 09:14.06 | phryk | If you mean talk.maemo.org, that's apparently down. |
| 09:14.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | hmmm |
| 09:15.04 | phryk | But I guess I can do it with 'gconftool' ? |
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| 09:15.28 | chem|st | o/ |
| 09:17.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | gconftool -R /system/osso/connectivity/IAP |
| 09:19.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | gconftool -R /|grep EAP_wpa_preshared_passphrase |
| 09:20.13 | chem|st | phryk: ^^ |
| 09:20.21 | DocScrutinizer51 | thanks |
| 09:20.37 | DocScrutinizer51 | o/ chem|st |
| 09:20.56 | chem|st | moo doc |
| 09:21.15 | chem|st | freemangordon: you settled your CSS issue? |
| 09:21.20 | DocScrutinizer51 | tmo down? Ha! |
| 09:21.40 | chem|st | database issues afaik |
| 09:22.04 | phryk | Ah gimme a sec |
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| 09:26.42 | phryk | Ah that works, thanks a bunch. |
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| 09:36.59 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: yeah server is back up but the db is still borked |
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| 09:44.34 | vi_ | TMO is down? |
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| 09:45.45 | merlin1991 | borked db |
| 09:45.46 | merlin1991 | yay |
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| 10:17.47 | MohammadAG | Does reggie know? |
| 10:20.29 | petteri | maybe it had this faulty mysql and someone stole our password hashes! |
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| 10:42.36 | SpeedEvil | ds3: calibration is near-trivial |
| 10:42.43 | SpeedEvil | ds3: problem is thickness |
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| 10:43.35 | SpeedEvil | You're basically looking at having to wirebond bare dies, or perhaps get away with sanding down existing magnetometer chips |
| 10:43.47 | MohammadAG | Tmo back!! |
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| 10:49.51 | vi_ | TMO back down! |
| 10:53.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | petteri: please elaborate. What's up with mysql? |
| 10:53.24 | petteri | https://community.rapid7.com/community/metasploit/blog/2012/06/11/cve-2012-2122-a-tragically-comedic-security-flaw-in-mysql |
| 10:56.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 10:57.14 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/MySQL-Datenbank-Zugang-auch-ohne-Passwort-1614987.html |
| 11:03.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: petteri: many thanks |
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| 11:19.45 | jacekowski | it's not mysql problem |
| 11:19.53 | jacekowski | it's libc and inconsistent documentation problem |
| 11:20.03 | jacekowski | some man pages say it returns a char |
| 11:20.08 | jacekowski | some say it returns int |
| 11:20.18 | jacekowski | and in reality it's absolutely random |
| 11:20.31 | jacekowski | and for example on my system it returns -1,0,1 and only those 3 |
| 11:20.39 | jacekowski | it's not returning difference between those string |
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| 11:21.05 | jacekowski | OS community did really good job writing confusing documentation |
| 11:30.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | jacekowski: man memcpy, why would anybody care for the actual value, instead of just checking ==0 ? |
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| 11:31.13 | jacekowski | DocScrutinizer05: they do |
| 11:31.28 | jacekowski | DocScrutinizer05: except they check for (char)memcpy(...)==0 |
| 11:31.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they do a cast to int8? |
| 11:31.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | dafaq |
| 11:31.46 | jacekowski | but according to man it's supposed to return char |
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| 11:32.31 | petteri | on ubuntu it says int |
| 11:32.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | int memcmp(const void *s1, const void *s2, size_t n); |
| 11:33.09 | jacekowski | yeah, but read the description |
| 11:33.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/memcpy/memcmp/. |
| 11:33.16 | jacekowski | it says it's comparing bytes |
| 11:33.22 | jacekowski | and it's returning byte compare value |
| 11:33.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | it *compares* bytes |
| 11:33.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is friggin irrelevant |
| 11:33.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | except for the way n is counting |
| 11:34.08 | jacekowski | and for example |
| 11:34.09 | jacekowski | http://www.manpagez.com/man/3/memcmp/ |
| 11:34.40 | petteri | max os x? |
| 11:34.43 | petteri | mac :) |
| 11:34.52 | jacekowski | BSD |
| 11:35.07 | jacekowski | and you have inconsistent behaviour across different linux distros |
| 11:35.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | jacekowski: still returns int |
| 11:35.27 | SpeedEvil | Slackware manpage The memcmp() function returns an integer less than, equal to, or |
| 11:35.28 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:35.28 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:35.32 | jacekowski | read the description |
| 11:35.33 | SpeedEvil | and says nothing about the actual range |
| 11:36.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | fact is the function still is defined as int memcmp(const void *s1, const void *s2, size_t n); |
| 11:36.29 | SpeedEvil | It's clearly possible to assume that it's the result of subtracting each char in each input string, and returning the result if diffefrent |
| 11:36.44 | SpeedEvil | but that isn't specified |
| 11:36.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter |
| 11:36.48 | petteri | jacekowski: maybe you are just one bitter mysql dev :P |
| 11:37.09 | jacekowski | nah, you just hit some random behaviour that makes stuff go wobbly |
| 11:37.18 | jacekowski | i've tried to repeat it |
| 11:37.34 | jacekowski | and in 9 cases out of 10 all i was getting was -1 or 0 or 1 |
| 11:37.48 | jacekowski | and then like every 10th try i was getting something different |
| 11:37.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter |
| 11:38.23 | dafox | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mysql/mysql-server/5.1/revision/3560.10.17 |
| 11:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | (<jacekowski> DocScrutinizer05: except they check for (char)memcpy(...)==0) only a fool would cast a function defined as int to a char |
| 11:39.02 | dafox | they're not really using the value to compute something it seems, its the return value of the function |
| 11:40.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | SHITE! again this 40s delay on clicking a URL |
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| 11:41.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, they return an int in a function defined as char |
| 11:41.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess |
| 11:42.13 | dafox | yes, seems my_bool is really a char |
| 11:43.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, returning random shit to a bool (or char) is clearly something even lint would've noticed |
| 11:43.30 | jacekowski | it's my_bool |
| 11:43.38 | jacekowski | not a standard type |
| 11:43.42 | dafox | if it were a real bool it would've worked |
| 11:43.55 | dafox | but I don't really know what happens here |
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| 11:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should |
| 11:44.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should take each opportunity to learn |
| 11:45.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | all hail to strict typing |
| 11:45.41 | dafox | I was already looking but I'm getting a lot of result for people trying to convert number-to-string |
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| 11:46.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | the nasty part is: all vulnerable MySQL servers may define all new passwords now |
| 11:47.28 | dafox | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5881895/truncating-an-int-to-char-is-it-defined |
| 11:47.36 | dafox | seems to explain it |
| 11:48.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | friggin c-coders never doing proper strict typeing |
| 11:48.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | you simply don't do implicit typecasts - problem soved |
| 11:50.28 | fasta | If everyone did proper strict typing, we would not have crashing machines anymore. |
| 11:50.47 | fasta | We would have machines which always worked and never failed. |
| 11:51.25 | fasta | Unfortunately, it seems that although everyone wants working systems, nobody builds them. |
| 11:53.54 | dafox | I think the problem here is treating my_bool as the builtin bool type though (different rules apply) |
| 11:55.09 | jacekowski | there is no bool in C |
| 11:55.19 | fasta | In new C there is. |
| 11:55.29 | jacekowski | nothing in C99 |
| 11:56.23 | fasta | stdbool.h is in C99, AFAIK. |
| 11:56.55 | fizzie | Yes, and _Bool even without the header. |
| 11:57.32 | fizzie | (C99 6.3.1.2 "Boolean type".) |
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| 11:59.57 | vi_ | There is no bool in C? |
| 12:00.00 | vi_ | ORLY? |
| 12:00.56 | SpeedEvil | There is no spoon in C. |
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| 12:02.10 | fizzie | But perhaps in C34 you can #include <stdutensil.h> and get spoon, knife and fork types. (With spork as a GCC extension.) |
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| 12:03.36 | SpeedEvil | Beware! http://xkcd.com/419/ |
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| 12:06.56 | vi_ | SpeedEvil: aaah, one of my very favourite XKCDs. |
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| 12:09.42 | fasta | C isn't even a formal language. |
| 12:10.11 | fasta | I.e. you can say some things in C, but you have no idea whether the machine will respond to it. |
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| 12:10.51 | fasta | And the much touted 'but then you can get more performance' is just an argument which nobody has ever backed up. |
| 12:11.27 | fasta | The very notion of accepting input without semantics is an extremely bad idea. |
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| 12:11.37 | ShadowJK | in other languages it's "you have no idea whether the implementation will conform to spec" ;-) |
| 12:12.25 | fasta | ShadowJK: well, not the languages I am interested in and/or using. |
| 12:13.06 | fasta | Well, I also use sh/perl/python at the edge of certain systems. |
| 12:13.26 | fasta | Still, the supposed fact that other also do it wrong, is no reason to also do it wrong. |
| 12:13.51 | fasta | C was just the simplest thing that could possibly work. |
| 12:14.11 | fasta | Where simple is defined as 'given the bias of the designers'. |
| 12:14.59 | ShadowJK | One fun thing about java is the java memory model is like only implemented on one obscure machine, and basically acts like C everywhere else.. But the java model would give you much performance boost in big SMP systems... I doubt any already written code would actually work though |
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| 12:23.53 | fasta | The architecture we use in computers also has nothing to do with the universe. |
| 12:24.31 | fasta | 99.99% of programming languages instead assume this architecture. |
| 12:25.02 | fasta | Programming language cores could better be designed by physicists. |
| 12:25.27 | SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: And quite a lot of smartcards. |
| 12:26.19 | SpeedEvil | Way too many people don't understand underlying hardware. |
| 12:26.26 | ShadowJK | Well the language defines the architecture, but the real life architecture is nicer, so java unintentionally ends up behaving in a for the programmer nicer way |
| 12:26.38 | SpeedEvil | - that random access speeds have barely changed for RAM since 1985. |
| 12:27.24 | SpeedEvil | (They've dropped ~10fold, on the back of a ~millionfold expansion in size) |
| 12:28.12 | fasta | I am talking about something like cellular automata as a base language. |
| 12:28.34 | SpeedEvil | Synchronisation is a hard problem. |
| 12:28.42 | SpeedEvil | cockless design isn't fun. |
| 12:28.44 | SpeedEvil | clock |
| 12:28.51 | fasta | Who cares about fun? |
| 12:29.09 | fasta | It's our task to create optimal devices. |
| 12:29.11 | SpeedEvil | Fun = tractable. |
| 12:29.22 | fasta | Chuck Moore created some. |
| 12:29.38 | fasta | Still, that's not radical enough. |
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| 15:34.13 | luke-jr | does N900 have any kind of un-resettable lock? |
| 15:34.21 | luke-jr | if so, how do I verify I have the password for it? |
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| 15:49.55 | chem|st | luke-jr: while unlocked you can access the storage of the lock-code which can be cracked in seconds |
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| 17:17.20 | _freemangordon | In the meanwhile: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84829&goto=newpost |
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| 17:26.24 | dafox | freemangordon: cool stuff! is this something that will eventually make its way into stable cssu? |
| 17:27.01 | freemangordon | dafox: it depends on the results from the testing stage |
| 17:28.16 | dafox | obviously :p But this is really awesome. But it would make the cssu quite big, no? |
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| 17:28.44 | freemangordon | if it turns out to be stable, if there are no conflicts, etc, etc, then we could start thinking. It is too early now. After all it might be that I am wring and stable thumb2 is impossible on n900 |
| 17:28.55 | freemangordon | dafox: no, it will make it smaller :P |
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| 17:29.18 | dafox | I mean, I assume ideally every [stock] application that can be recompiled would be 'updated' to this, so many more applications to install? |
| 17:29.48 | freemangordon | dafox: it is not for the applications, but for the system stuff, ie bins in /rootfs |
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| 17:31.03 | freemangordon | It is up to application developers to decide whether to thumb-compile their SW ( reducing the user base to CSSU-devel users only) or to put the stuff in maemo-extras. On the other hand there is COBS comming, so who knows ;) |
| 17:31.03 | dafox | rootfs is the core system right? but wouldn't you want to recompile everything that runs? |
| 17:31.12 | freemangordon | yep |
| 17:31.20 | freemangordon | but it takes time ;) |
| 17:31.28 | dafox | ofcourse |
| 17:31.35 | dafox | I hope it works, you have my vote :) |
| 17:31.49 | freemangordon | then try it if you feel brave :P |
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| 17:32.56 | dafox | unfortunately I'm not that brave :p I use my n900 as my 'real' phone |
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| 17:35.06 | freemangordon | dafox: so am i :) |
| 17:35.16 | freemangordon | but it is up to you of course |
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| 18:02.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | dafox: CSSU never will force a new kernel on users, since we can't force commercial providers of kernel modules to support that kernel |
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| 18:04.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idea of CSSU is *not* to be the better new OS version, CSSU is all about keeping *original* maemo alive |
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| 18:25.41 | dafox | why are 'commercial providers of kernel modules' needed? can you please give me an example? |
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| 19:09.10 | thopiekar | hi is there a way to run whatsapp or wazapp on N900? |
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| 19:23.01 | vi__ | freemangordon: HOLY SHIT. |
| 19:23.48 | vi__ | Is there any other dogma you two want to smash? |
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| 19:31.12 | mira_ | hi there, is there anything wrong with maemo.org? I am absolutely unable to register an account |
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| 19:32.38 | GeneralAntilles | mira_, you should file a bug. |
| 19:32.40 | GeneralAntilles | cackles. |
| 19:33.12 | mira_ | :P |
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| 19:37.45 | vi__ | mira_: do you mean the forum? |
| 19:37.57 | mira_ | maemo.org |
| 19:38.03 | vi__ | mira_: do you mean the forum? |
| 19:38.06 | mira_ | yes |
| 19:38.25 | vi__ | talk.maemo.org is a different account from maemo.org |
| 19:38.26 | mira_ | I was told to wait an hour |
| 19:39.02 | vi__ | did you register for talk.maemo.org or maemo.org? |
| 19:39.11 | mira_ | maemo.org |
| 19:39.21 | vi__ | and you want to use talk.maemo.org? |
| 19:39.28 | vi__ | (the forum)? |
| 19:40.13 | vi__ | mira_: ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION. |
| 19:40.15 | mira_ | well yes, I thought I could use the same credentials for both |
| 19:40.35 | vi__ | mira_: no, for some bizzare reason they use differnt login details. |
| 19:40.42 | mira_ | ok thanks |
| 19:40.58 | vi__ | So to use talk.maemo.org, go to talk.maemo.org and register there. |
| 19:41.08 | mira_ | okies I will |
| 19:41.11 | vi__ | good |
| 19:41.49 | mira_ | another question, is anyone experienced in using pocketsphinx |
| 19:42.05 | mira_ | I am working a bit on a voice control app |
| 19:44.17 | mira_ | the main idea is to improve the recognition rate by having several language models and using the one that depends on the app that is the foreground app |
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| 19:45.21 | mira_ | it works so far but I would like to have an idea about the probability that the word pocketsphinx found is the corrent one |
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| 19:45.59 | GeneralAntilles | vi_, because SSO is difficult to implement. |
| 19:46.15 | GeneralAntilles | vi__, and Talk was a completely different website in the past. |
| 19:49.19 | fasta | mira_: are you saying you are thinking about the voice recognition problem? |
| 19:49.31 | mira_ | yes |
| 19:49.35 | fasta | mira_: why don't you first implement the current state of the art? |
| 19:49.57 | fasta | mira_: I'd guess that would keep you occupied for >10 years at least. |
| 19:50.06 | fasta | Then you can start thinking about improvements. |
| 19:50.38 | fasta | It's the same thing in most application areas. |
| 19:51.07 | mira_ | n900 doesnt have a voice control app |
| 19:51.11 | fasta | Google does voice recognition on extremely large datasets, and it works. |
| 19:51.31 | fasta | There are likely also ways to do it with less data, but hey, it works. |
| 19:51.43 | fasta | nidO: so? |
| 19:52.02 | fasta | mira_: voice control would be really cool, but it's not 'research'. |
| 19:52.08 | mira_ | but dont I need to be online to use google voice control? |
| 19:52.23 | fasta | I wasn't implying you should use Google. |
| 19:52.34 | mira_ | and I never said that I would to research |
| 19:52.42 | mira_ | s/to/do |
| 19:53.05 | mira_ | there is a nice module called pocketsphinx |
| 19:53.15 | mira_ | that does the recognition |
| 19:53.30 | mira_ | but it fails very often when you have a large dictionary |
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| 19:54.11 | mira_ | so I want to have several small dictionaries, like every supported app has its own |
| 19:55.32 | mira_ | its just using the pocketsphinx module, implemting the app dependent dictionary (language model) and code the stuff to control the app (mainly by dbus), thats it |
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| 19:57.31 | mira_ | it works in general, but I would like to have a certain threshold of certainty, thats what I am currently looking for |
| 19:58.57 | mira_ | I know many ppl dont want voice control for the N900 but I would like to dial and control navit while driving by voice control |
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| 20:02.26 | fasta | mira_: there is even research on that. |
| 20:02.45 | Woody14619 | There's an app being developed on TMO for N900/N9 currently for this, FYI. |
| 20:02.50 | mira_ | yes the pocketsphinx is under development |
| 20:03.02 | Woody14619 | fasta: Please don't discourage people who are looking to help... |
| 20:03.36 | fasta | Woody14619: I am just helping him/her not to reinvent the wheel. |
| 20:03.48 | Woody14619 | fasta: this person is saying they're looking at options on how to bring functionality to N900 using an existing tool (pocketsphynx) |
| 20:04.03 | Woody14619 | fasta: They're not trying to re-invent. They're looking to build on existing tools. |
| 20:04.22 | mira_ | correct Woody14619 |
| 20:04.27 | Woody14619 | fasta: and currently there is not an existing tool for doing this on the N900. |
| 20:04.44 | fasta | Woody14619: the 'application specific dictionaries'-part has some research papers on it. |
| 20:05.13 | fasta | I think it's more efficient to read a paper in 10 minutes than to think for a week about something. |
| 20:05.17 | Woody14619 | That's great... Be usefull and point those out. But don't discourage doing anything becuase it may be re-inventing. Re-inventing is part of the learning process. |
| 20:05.34 | fasta | Well, I didn't mean to discourage you. |
| 20:05.47 | fasta | It's more awesome than most projects. |
| 20:06.06 | fasta | The resistor application is also awesome, btw. |
| 20:06.16 | fasta | The GUI is just made of genious. |
| 20:06.18 | Woody14619 | :) Good... so, mira_, the app currently under development can be read about on TMO, at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84753 |
| 20:06.27 | mira_ | fasta: I don't do any research, I just make use of existing tools |
| 20:06.30 | fasta | It could be improved, of course. |
| 20:06.56 | fasta | For example, currently it's only a one directional mapping. |
| 20:07.31 | fasta | It could also show the resistor colors based on the resistor and tolerances input. |
| 20:07.41 | mira_ | thanks for that link, I will see whether this one is better than mine |
| 20:07.52 | Woody14619 | mira_, They're using just such an approach right now for command interface vs general entry. |
| 20:08.32 | Woody14619 | mira_, also consider, it may be useful to merge both to pick up sub-sets of features each lacks that the other has... |
| 20:08.44 | mira_ | indeed |
| 20:08.57 | Woody14619 | mira_, always easier to colaborate than compete. Especially in an open environment like N900. |
| 20:09.02 | Woody14619 | mira_, good luck! :) |
| 20:09.50 | mira_ | yeah you are absolutely right Woody14619, I just didnt find THAT one |
| 20:10.37 | Woody14619 | fasta, true. :) Lots of apps could be refined and added. But to do that we need people willing to put effort it. Even if some of them have to re-learn chunks or wind up making the same widget again, sometimes newer is actually better. Especially if that newer version has a maintainer, and the old one does not. ;) |
| 20:11.31 | fasta | Woody14619: how many n900 users are there left? 10,000? |
| 20:12.02 | Woody14619 | fasta, there are times I've simply scrapped an existing tool and re-written, since deciphering what was already there would have taken longer than to simply re-create it in the way I think. Especially if it's poorly written/commented source. |
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| 20:12.36 | fasta | Woody14619: yeah, know the feeling. |
| 20:13.00 | Woody14619 | fasta, in some cases user base is irrelivant. The true measure is developer numbers. And those are low, but stable right now. |
| 20:13.46 | Woody14619 | fasta, one can change the other dramatically. Yes. But in a 2-year old product, those numbers are now semi-static, at least in slope if nothing else. :) |
| 20:13.47 | fasta | I think there are also infrastructure issues which are important. |
| 20:14.06 | fasta | E.g. when a new critical component comes out, the rest should still work. |
| 20:14.50 | fasta | Backwards compatibility needs to be transparent to both users and developers on any given platform. |
| 20:15.28 | fasta | I have no idea how n900 does it (seems to be good), but lots of platforms fail because they either don't offer anything or fail to do those things. |
| 20:16.12 | Woody14619 | fasta, agreed. But those are side-issues. One can re-write a component with an identical API if documented correctly. The problems arise when the documentation is poor or non-existent. :) |
| 20:16.26 | Woody14619 | Anyway.. while this is fun, I must get back to work. |
| 20:16.53 | fasta | Yeah, I value undocumented code at $0. |
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| 20:19.08 | mira_ | thanks again for helping me, I have to go (its pretty late here in germany) |
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| 20:30.48 | Lantizia | Lo, anyone using nitdroid who can tell me if nitdroid can still see MyDocs? |
| 20:35.13 | vi__ | nope |
| 20:35.41 | vi__ | Well yes |
| 20:35.43 | vi__ | but no |
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| 20:58.27 | freemangordon | vi_: Are you aware of any other dogma that woths smashing? |
| 20:58.31 | freemangordon | *woths |
| 20:58.39 | freemangordon | what is with my R |
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| 21:46.34 | Lantizia | was alien dalvik ever actually releases officially or otherwise for maemo? |
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