IRC log for #maemo on 20120608

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00:22.19DocScrutinizer05kke: such settings quite usually are cached in the process and just written back to file on program exit or/and other occasions
00:22.59DocScrutinizer05means: if you're umounting the one fs and mounting the other, while the process using the settings is active, you're quite likely doing a hidden copy
00:23.48DocScrutinizer05for desktop that's almost inevitable as desktop will quite likely run when system is up so you could mount and such fs
00:26.31DocScrutinizer05so something=app saves something=settings somewhere else=in program cache
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00:41.55DocScrutinizer05well, s/cache/variables/
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00:44.54DocScrutinizer05kke: e.g. starhash-enabler needs to kill -9 the dialer app for that reason, after editing the config file
00:46.33DocScrutinizer05might work for desktop as well
00:46.58DocScrutinizer05nfc about email accounts
00:47.48DocScrutinizer05try stopping modest for good, before switching to alternative fs
00:48.28DocScrutinizer05or alternatively kill -9 modest after switching fs
00:50.28DocScrutinizer05hears kke thinking "WTF?!" while realizing that switching from unecrypted to encrypted isn't exactly a simple task, after system booted up
00:50.55kkeDocScrutinizer05: that happens even when i reboot to the other mount
00:51.19DocScrutinizer05no, it already had happened when you do that
00:51.25Hurrianyou shouldn't be doing that, instead, you should change the mount in rcS-late
00:51.35DocScrutinizer05exactly
00:52.17DocScrutinizer05the copying is done whenever you switch between the two fs while all the apps with config are already started
00:52.35SpeedEvilthinks of a cryptoloop type module that understands and progressively encrypts the underlying device.
00:52.50DocScrutinizer05so unless you boot to an empty encrypted fs, you already did the copy before
00:53.12kkeits impossible
00:53.34kkewhen im in the unencrypted version, there should be no way to write to the encrypted version
00:53.46DocScrutinizer05there isn't
00:53.58DocScrutinizer05didn't you read what I tried to explain to you?
00:54.10DocScrutinizer05how are you preparing your encrypted fs?
00:54.43DocScrutinizer05how do you manage to make it diffetrent from the original that is not encrypted?
00:55.30kkeduring boot
00:56.10kkeif i enter the passphrase i get an encrypted home
00:56.12DocScrutinizer05when you boot to encrypted, change some mail account there, then powerdown, boot to unencrypted and the mail account already is there, then I dunno
00:56.33kkeyep and the other way around too
00:56.46kketrange
00:57.13DocScrutinizer05I'd guess you're mounting your encrypted fs after processes like hildon-desktop and maodest get started
00:59.02DocScrutinizer05esp check gconfd, as a lot of stuff is stored there
00:59.29DocScrutinizer05and I guess gconfd is started rather early in boot
01:00.02DocScrutinizer05idly wonders if that shite is actally called gconfd
01:00.09DocScrutinizer05actually*
01:02.21DocScrutinizer05duh, and never forget about nasty hidden stuff 'under' the mount, a frequent source of irritations, headscratching and strange effects, when users do anything on a device with activated mass storage mode
01:03.05DocScrutinizer05you could see same effects for mountpoint dir of /home
01:04.43DocScrutinizer05the real fun stuff: file handles to files under the mountpoint will still work, even while the file itself got hidden by the mount
01:05.18DocScrutinizer05at least I guess they do
01:06.39DocScrutinizer05it's an educated guess though, as e.g. syslog can even write to files already renamed or completely deleted
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01:11.14DocScrutinizer05lsof|grep gconfd
01:12.05DocScrutinizer05none of the gconf database aka registry files is open. They all get opened when needed and closed after reading, modifying
01:12.35DocScrutinizer05the rest of the time values are stored in gconfd-2 memory
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02:18.30iluminator101can you upgrade the chip in n900?
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02:24.39robbiethe1stno
02:25.13iluminator101thats what i gathered from web search too
02:25.22Hurrianboards are designed for only one SoC, don't try
02:25.40Hurrianhave you /seen/ an omap3530 chip?
02:26.06Hurriani highly doubt a person can even lift the onenand sitting on top of the 3430 and resolder it
02:37.42robbiethe1stBut you can clock yours up to 1.15ghz, if you're willing to deal with unknown life
02:37.58robbiethe1st(need to overvoltage most chips to get it stable, but)
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02:40.01ebzzryhi! what is the default min and max freq of maemo5?
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02:42.20int_uaAny Blender users?
02:43.29robbiethe1stUh, 125/600
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02:44.24int_uaI've updated accelBlend to a usable state, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=76991
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03:57.39Hurrian~seen Estel^
03:57.43infobotestel^ <~Estel@178.180.151.251.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 17h 34m 1s ago, saying: 'teotwaki,  LOL'.
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05:51.56Estel_Hi Hurrian, whats up?
05:52.18Estel_rather search me per Estel_, Estel^ is just backup nick
05:52.52Estel_Pali, considering work on RE NOLO You're doing with jacekowski, could we expect U-Boot replacing NOLO totally soon? ;()
05:53.07Estel_s/;()/;)/
05:53.39Estel_I know it's about mem atag, not replacement, but it seems, that You're getting info about how NOLO works, in details
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08:43.01[DarkGUNMAN]morning all
08:43.56vi_goodmorning.
08:44.06vi_You geordie!
08:44.30vi_loves a bit o' nukie broon.
08:45.10vi_Have you seen the guy on the forum asking if he can connect the wires of his charger directly to his battery terminals.
08:45.10jacekowski~stats
08:45.10infobotSince Wed May 30 04:14:42 2012, there have been 73 modifications, 464 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 302 commands.  I have been awake for 9d 4h 30m 28s this session, and currently reference 118598 factoids.  I'm using about 24512 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 2554.35/56.2 child 0/0
08:45.15jacekowski~channelstats
08:45.19jacekowskihmm
08:45.35vi_>100000 factoids!
08:45.39vi_~moron
08:45.39infobotmethinks moron is someone that types long lines starting with "infobot"
08:45.49vi_~moron vi_
08:47.25teotwaki~rape vi_
08:47.25infobotACTION takes vi_ behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams
08:48.57vi_that is grim.
08:49.26vi_~teabag teotwaki
08:49.26infobotACTION invites teotwaki to join in yet another mindless gripe session
08:49.56vi_Wrong kind of teabag infobot you doofus.
08:50.14vi_~factoids
08:50.14infobotfactoids are information that infobot can learn and then reply with. "/msg infobot help" for more info.
08:50.38vi_~teste teotwaki
08:50.46vi_~testes teotwaki
08:50.53vi_~gonad teotwaki
08:51.09teotwaki~slap vi_
08:51.09infobotACTION slaps vi_, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!
08:51.24teotwaki~lameometer vi_
08:51.31teotwakicool
08:51.51teotwaki~lameometer r00t|home
08:51.58vi_wait.
08:52.07vi_How are these figures calculated?
08:52.16teotwakiamount of weird chars in a nickname
08:52.17vi_~lameometer teotwaki
08:52.18teotwaki0
08:52.34teotwaki~lameometer f4gg0ts4th4w1n
08:52.53teotwaki~lameometer ~~||"£ife
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08:59.53[DarkGUNMAN]hello vi_
09:01.11[DarkGUNMAN]yes I am geordie, and yeah it is mental he's wiring up the charger directly!
09:03.21[DarkGUNMAN]unfortunately newcastle brown ale isn't the pure stuff anymore since it's produced in tadcaster noew :(
09:06.38*** join/#maemo kama (~kama@unaffiliated/kama)
09:08.07[DarkGUNMAN]..and I'm annoyed I haven't managed to fix the usb port
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09:10.35[DarkGUNMAN]sod it
09:12.47[DarkGUNMAN]vi_ you been meddling much with compcache?
09:14.09vi_Darkchaos: yes I have...
09:14.31[DarkGUNMAN]recent settings have been working okay to a point, so I'm messing with diskspace reported / actual memory used to try and get swap to run soley in RAM
09:15.03vi_I have tried that.
09:15.13vi_There is _just_ not enough RAM.
09:15.26HurrianDarkGUNMAN, that's not happening, ever
09:15.44Hurrianunless you only use N900 for calls and SMS, it's eventually going to OOM
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09:18.32vi_would happily take a CPU hit for higher compcache compression.
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09:20.29[DarkGUNMAN]disksize_kb=524288 memlimit_kb=65536 seems to satisfy maemo there is enough diskspace, but 64Mb before compression is too low before cpu goes mental. Gonna try some other settings later just for the hell of it once the batter is charged up.....
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09:46.29vi_[DarkGUNMAN]: you have my attention...
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09:55.03[DarkGUNMAN]vi_ to change ramzswap on the hop without reboot, swapoff /dev/ramzswap0, rmmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko, insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=524288 memlimit_kb=163840, swapon /dev/ramzswap0
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09:56.21[DarkGUNMAN]memlimit sets the ram level to use before compression, afterwhich cpu goes crazy until hthe program passing the memlimit is closed, then it seems to return to normal
09:56.56[DarkGUNMAN]trying multiples of 1.5, no crashes
10:03.35dafox'cpu goes crazy'?
10:07.53vi_dafox: kswapd, the process that deals with the swapping goes nuts swapping shit left and right/
10:08.30dafoxso only the program actually using lots of ram is affected?
10:10.48*** join/#maemo mrcarrot (~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot)
10:11.41mrcarrotIs there any way to change the encoding in the terminal to latin-1? Or any alternative to osso-xterm that can be installed and allowing latin-1?
10:12.04mrcarrotn810 had this feature
10:13.05mrcarrotI need a terminal that still will give Ctrl, Esc, Tab, Page up, Page down easily
10:13.45DocScrutinizer05~chaninfo
10:13.45infobot123/123 channels, 5025 users, 3643 unique: #debian/1195, #kde/372, #gsoc/282, #maemo/274, #meego/203, #asterisk/167, #harmattan/166, #oe/145, #wowuidev/141, #webos-internals/121, #wowace/119, #openmoko/93, #wowhead/90, #openmoko-cdevel/73, #uclibc/72, #utah/64, #htc-linux/63, #arm-netbook/62, #n9/60, #tomcat/60, #diablofans/59, #bzflag/58, #edev/57, #qi-hardware/56, #curseforge/55, #asterisk-dev/46, #maemo-ssu/44, #flow3/44, #elinux/38, ...
10:14.05DocScrutinizer05~chaninfo #maemo
10:14.05infobotOn #maemo, there have been 1 Ban, 2 Deops, 2274 Joins, 2 Kicks, 2 Ops, 68 Parts, 6943 PublicMsgs and 2209 SignOffs.  At the moment, 1 Voice, 1 Opped and 274 Total.  turl has said the most with a total of 849 messages.
10:15.47mrcarrotI am using my n900 very often to do ssh into a computer with latin1
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10:19.04vi_I thought UTF-8 > latin1?
10:19.48mrcarrotvi_: no, it can not handle Scandinavian characters, like åäö
10:20.14Veggenuh...utf-8 can handle scandinavian characters.
10:20.25mrcarrotyes, but not from systems with latin1
10:20.42mrcarrotit is not backward compatible to latin1
10:20.46Veggen...not in the same way as UTF-8, that is correct :)
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10:22.29mgedminthinks switching that legacy system to utf-8 would be a better time investment
10:22.41mrcarrotTo me it looks like the most important function (the terminal) is only half made in n900 :(
10:23.17mrcarrotmgedmin: The remote system is OpenBSD (which still uses latin1)
10:23.33mgedminO.O
10:23.40mgedminin 2012?  latin1?
10:23.43DocScrutinizer05hi mgedmin
10:23.48mgedminwaves
10:23.51mrcarrotDoes anyone know about a luit package for n900? It would solve the problem
10:26.09DocScrutinizer05idly wonders if ssh devels haven't thought about the situation when destination platform has a different encoding than local xterm
10:29.03mrcarrotDocScrutinizer05: Maybe because the UNIX philosophy is to do only one thing, and that well. OpenSSH is developed by the OpenBSD team, and OpenBSD includes luit for converting between encodings
10:29.20mrcarrotDocScrutinizer05: You can use luit as a wrapper for ssh.
10:30.22DocScrutinizer05aaah, I see
10:30.50Hurrianmrcarrot, have you considered running openssh inside easy-debian?
10:31.03DocScrutinizer05so how hard could it get to build luit for fremantle?
10:31.43mrcarrotHurrian: can I still use osso-xterm? I mean, the normal terminals makes it hard to press things like ESC
10:32.12vi_mrcarrot: You could use xterm and map esc, tab, etc on you keyboard/
10:32.16vi_^.
10:32.19Hurrianmrcarrot, "sudo debian" gives you all of debian inside osso-xterm
10:32.23DocScrutinizer05check wiki "customizing maemo"->"keymap"
10:32.33mrcarrotHurrian: thanks
10:32.46mrcarrotHurrian: that will be the solution!
10:33.36vi_[DarkGUNMAN]: I think memlimit_kb is only used when you have a backing swap.
10:33.56vi_AFAI there is somthing broken with backing swap in our compcache.
10:34.08vi_You would need to ask FMG.
10:34.32vi_There fore, only disksize_kb parameter is used.
10:35.33DocScrutinizer05tab is ctrl-i anyway
10:35.47DocScrutinizer05;-)
10:35.58vi_HOLY
10:36.00vi_SHIT.
10:36.09Hurrianvi_, not really "broken", but "extremely, unusably slow"
10:36.10vi_I did not know of this ctrl-i
10:36.18DocScrutinizer05vi_: lol
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10:36.35vi_DocScrutinizer05: after I spent days remapping my 'board.
10:36.53vi_Hurrian: Does anyone know why it is slow?
10:37.17vi_DocScrutinizer05: is there one for activating the pointer for highlighting text?
10:37.21DocScrutinizer05vi_: so what other key-combo would you map <tab< to, then?
10:37.27DocScrutinizer05<tab>
10:37.45vi_I have blue+return==tab
10:37.51DocScrutinizer05YAY
10:38.03vi_shift+backspace==escape
10:38.11DocScrutinizer05well...
10:38.31vi_blue+arrows=page up/down+home/end.
10:38.42DocScrutinizer05esc is ctrl-[ or sth, not really convenient to press on N900 kbd ;-D
10:39.25vi_I have the entire 4th level populated with all the special characters + F1-F11
10:39.36DocScrutinizer05\o/
10:39.38DocScrutinizer05cool
10:40.02DocScrutinizer05F11 is actually nasty
10:40.17vi_My favourite is blue+question mark makes a full stop.
10:40.29vi_to get a ? you need blue+shift.
10:40.30DocScrutinizer05F1-F10 are usually equiv to esc-1 ..esc-0
10:40.46vi_This allows you to type in IP addresses without deactivating fn-lock.
10:40.54vi_DocScrutinizer05: I did not know that.
10:41.40DocScrutinizer05vi_: (dot) very nice and convenient
10:41.59vi_yup, I have the same for space/@.
10:42.14vi_Moved @ to next level up so I can have space with fn pressed.
10:42.23vi_mega pain in the balls turning fn on/off.
10:42.29DocScrutinizer05yep
10:43.07vi_One I have never managed to get working is blue+backspace==delete
10:43.23vi_It _just does not work_ for some reason.
10:43.42vi_Meh, xkb is a workd of pain and hurt.
10:44.32DocScrutinizer05that's because blue-bs is handled by hildon-desktop and thus probably never reaches xterm
10:44.40vi_ffs
10:44.42DocScrutinizer05oops, nope
10:44.46vi_layer upon layer of fuck.
10:44.48DocScrutinizer05ctrl-bs
10:45.21DocScrutinizer05I'm still dizzy, sorry
10:45.34vi_Going back to stock KB is like being crippled.
10:46.01vi_Now all I need is a way to increase xterm font size then I can leave the osso-xterm bs behind.
10:46.04DocScrutinizer05I bet it is
10:46.42*** join/#maemo hurbu_ (~hurbanza@81-174-50-194.dynamic.ngi.it)
10:46.53DocScrutinizer05hmm, leave osso-xterm behind?
10:47.11vi_yes, for a real xterm
10:47.21DocScrutinizer05aaah
10:47.22vi_xterm, roxterm, mrxvt, etc
10:47.36vi_they support middle click pasting.
10:47.52vi_and have 'highlight' when I drag my mouse.
10:47.55DocScrutinizer05middleclick is a tad tricky on N900
10:48.03vi_Nuh uh.
10:48.18vi_With xbindkeys, it is just another shortcut.
10:48.31vi_blue+click==middle click
10:48.32DocScrutinizer05unless you use usb mouse ;-P
10:48.39DocScrutinizer05o.O
10:48.45DocScrutinizer05per default?
10:48.48vi_shift+click==right click.
10:48.52vi_no!
10:48.58vi_you have to use xbindkeys.
10:49.06DocScrutinizer05aah, I see
10:49.38DocScrutinizer05man, vi_, where is all that documented? where's your howto-page?
10:49.41vi_so everything is working on xterm except the stupid fonts.
10:49.50vi_I don't have one -_-.
10:50.05DocScrutinizer05~spank vi_
10:50.05infobotACTION bends vi_ over his knee and tatoos 'ibot' on vi_'s pasty white buttocks.
10:50.14vi_It is just TMO folklore, handed down through PMs
10:51.20*** join/#maemo trbs (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623)
10:52.05vi_I would like to document the KB stuff, however where do I write it?
10:52.11vi_A post on TMO gets buried.
10:52.20vi_So that leaves the wiki.
10:52.35vi_How do you possibly add stuff like this to the wiki?
10:52.53vi_Without a major re-write?
10:52.58Hurrianvi_, meh, wiki needs serious restructuring
10:53.01*** join/#maemo kwtm (~kwtm1@adsl-75-61-106-205.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
10:53.04vi_Or do I just start a competing page?
10:54.06Hurrianmeh, try to mosh it into whatever the page is for custom keyboard on N900
10:54.18vi_Hurrian: that page is one of the worst.
10:54.27vi_Other people have tried to do just that.
10:54.29Hurrianif it's better than everything, wipe it and replace it with your method
10:54.36vi_And the page is just filled with shit.
10:55.37vi_Take the OC page for example.
10:56.03vi_There is this jakiman overclock guide that shows in the simplest possible terms how to OC.
10:56.22vi_However it does not actually explain what any of the shit he is writing does.
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10:56.28Hurrianmeh, i
10:56.42Hurrianmeh, i'm bored, i'll probably try to rewrite that later tonight
10:57.07vi_OK.
10:57.12vi_IU will do the same.
10:57.28vi_I will create a new page called 'how to map your KB like a boss'.
10:57.36Hurriangeez, page is labeled overclocking, but undervolting should be included too
10:57.46vi_And just dump my confs.
10:57.51SpeedEvilvi: I'm sure I saw a Dilbert on that.
10:58.02vi_SpeedEvil: what?
10:58.28SpeedEvil'how to map your KB like a boss'.
10:59.15DocScrutinizer05vi_: just create a new wiki page, under the original one
10:59.43*** join/#maemo valdyn (~valdyn@valdyn.org)
10:59.59DocScrutinizer05link from wiki.m.o/original to wiki.m.o/original/myPage
11:02.08DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Keyboard_characters  http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard  http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard/user_vis_awesome_kbdmapping
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11:24.06DocScrutinizer05vi_: just dump your confs there (last URL)
11:24.20vi_DocScrutinizer05: sure
11:25.09DocScrutinizer05see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard for borked 3-key pairs
11:25.11vi_I will have to fix it later, ya know with some vi sarcasm and dry rudeness.
11:25.42DocScrutinizer05wtf is a 3-key pair???
11:25.45DocScrutinizer05;-P
11:26.44teotwakiDocScrutinizer: the third key is the one who has to endure the couple kissing and being all cute, all the while having to hear "Don't worry, you'll find someone special soon enough".
11:27.16teotwakiAnd replying to himself: "I don't give a fuck about someone special, I just want to get laid, bitch".
11:27.20vi_teotwaki: we call him 'the fucking onion'
11:27.29teotwakivi_: fucking onion? :D
11:33.00HurrianDocScrutinizer, the omap3430 doesn't have on-die temp sensor, right?
11:33.15Hurrianit's just a sensor somewhere near the CPU
11:33.17teotwaki"Following Ray Bradbury's Death, Thousands Of People Buy Kindle Version Of Book About Demise Of Paper Books"
11:34.10teotwakiHurrian: I thought it was the battery sensor?
11:34.18Hurrianyeah, you're right, that's it
11:35.29DocScrutinizer05Hurrian: I think it has, but it's defect in silicon
11:35.31teotwakiIIRC, it's a 10 or 100k thermistor, had a funky easy to remember little name, R111110 or R1110 or something
11:36.04DocScrutinizer0510k
11:36.18teotwakiwhoa, *looks at his hands like Keanu Reeves in The Matrix*: I know electronics!
11:36.20DocScrutinizer05on ADCIN1, or4, or0
11:37.57teotwakiHurrian: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic
11:38.02teotwakiADCIN0
11:38.09DocScrutinizer05it seems /sys/bus/platform/devices/omap34xx_temp is CPU die temp, but as mentioned it's defect and deprectaed
11:38.11*** join/#maemo zap_ (~zap@213.59.86.89)
11:38.39DocScrutinizer05actually /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input
11:38.55teotwakiSad day, our usenet moderator mailing list is being decommissioned
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11:40.06DocScrutinizer05watch cat /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input
11:40.23DocScrutinizer05will eventually freeze, or show complete bogus values
11:40.38DocScrutinizer05or just outright refuse to work at all
11:41.02teotwaki"Physicists Discover Our Universe Is Fictional Setting Of Cop Show Called 'Hard Case'"
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11:45.39DocScrutinizer05cat /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0029/adc*   is UV and complete-spectrum ALS it seems
11:48.21DocScrutinizer05battery sensor (10k) is under /dev/twl4030-adc (ioctl)
11:49.28DocScrutinizer05the usually used "battery temp" as of bq27k-detail is just a random die temperature of some random chip somewhere on the N900, useless to read it out
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11:51.09DocScrutinizer05cat /sys/devices/platform/nokia-av/madc   might be related to... Tadaaa: the AV receptacle
11:51.31fasta_How can I setup USB networking? I tried http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking, but while at some point I was able to ping the host from the phone, I now cannot even do that.
11:51.51fasta_Can I use NetworkManager to set it up for example?
11:52.28fasta_I also wasn't able to do any kind of DNS queries on the phone.
11:53.18fasta_The instructions which are given on that page seem incomplete given that others have expressed similar problems. Isn't there some easier way to get it to work?
11:54.39fasta_The gateway for the phone is at 192.168.3.14, the phone is 192.168.3.15.
11:54.41DocScrutinizer05from `man watch`: >>(Note that -p isn’t guaranteed to work across reboots, especially in the face of ntpdate or other bootup time-changing mechanisms)<< HAHA suuuure
11:57.41vi_DocScrutinizer05: Just for you.
11:57.44vi_DocScrutinizer05: http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard/user_vis_awesome_kbdmapping
11:59.25DocScrutinizer05vi_: great
11:59.28DocScrutinizer05:-)
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12:00.42DocScrutinizer05cat /sys/devices/platform/nokia-av/madc :: 1023 for no plug or AV-cable with yellow RCA plug open, 5..6 with 3pin headphone plug plugged in
12:03.04fasta_Ok, I got pinging to work.
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12:06.00DocScrutinizer05vi_: please check "indentation"
12:06.24DocScrutinizer05>> partial hidden alphanumeric_keys xkb_symbols "english_base" { << is missing leading space
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12:06.58DocScrutinizer05or not?
12:07.39kwtmfasta_: I routinely use USB networking to ssh in to my N900, and can help you with concise questions, but will have to be away from the computer shortly.  Is there anything in particular I can help you with?
12:07.56kwtmfasta_: I can see if I can paste my connect-to-USB scripts, if it helps.
12:08.24vi_DocScrutinizer05: fixd
12:08.49vi_kwtm: please do!
12:09.12kwtmvi_: ??  Wait, are you asking about USB netting or was it fasta_?
12:10.48vi_it was fasta, however I am also interested in this.
12:11.50kwtmIn that case, I'm going to give you homework. Could you please post this in talk.maemo.org so that others can also benefit?  ... although I gotta make sure I clean up my scripts before I present them in public. :P
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12:14.07fasta_kwtm: I mostly seem to have issues with the network manager part.
12:14.23fasta_kwtm: I can _either_ have eth0 internet or an usb0 connection, but not both.
12:14.48fasta_Kind of ridiculous, but I think I will just try the Gnome network manager to see whether I can get it to work.
12:14.56fasta_The KDE one doesn't make sense to me.
12:15.07fasta_Without a GUI might even be better, but that's impossible, right?
12:15.17fasta_I mean, while still using network manager.
12:15.28kwtmfasta_: Interesting.  That is not my case.  I routinely ssh into it by USB and tell it to get things by mobile network, so definitely I can network two things ... although I can't specifically remember that it was WiFi and USB (rather than mobile & usb)
12:16.00kwtmfasta_: Not sure what you mean.  Still interested in the scripts?  I have one on the N900 and one on my Kubuntu laptop end, and when I run both, I can connect by USB.
12:16.03fasta_kwtm: I want to configure usb-networking from host to phone.
12:16.22fasta_kwtm: I think I already wrote such scripts myself.
12:16.33fasta_kwtm: thanks for the offer.
12:16.35kwtmfasta_: Right.   That's what I do.  I run a script on N900 as root, then run a script on the laptop as sudo, then I can connect to N900.
12:16.42kwtmOk, no problem.
12:16.45fasta_kwtm: I automated this already.
12:16.47kwtmHope you solve your problems.
12:16.55fasta_kwtm: I.e., I don't need to run any script.
12:17.02fasta_(or at least not manually)
12:17.42fasta_I am also quite confused with the routes.
12:17.43kwtmyou think that could be part of the problem?  Something is being done automatically without your being aware?
12:17.51fasta_No, the problem is with the routes.
12:18.03kwtmOk.  Good luck with the routes.
12:18.05fasta_So, there isn't a route which says 'for phone traffic, go there.'
12:18.17fasta_But I am not a networking expert.
12:18.31fasta_(I don't get why they get their interfaces so ugly)
12:18.35kwtmAlright. Let me know if you want me to run something on my N900, like the output of command "route" or something.
12:18.44fasta_kwtm: yeah, that would be helpful.
12:18.51vi_The holy grail is booting a live distro off the N900 in mass storage mode.  Then switching over to USB networking so we can access the N900 eMMC/SD AND browse the net over GPRS/3G.
12:18.54fasta_kwtm: both on your desktop and your phone.
12:19.08kwtmWhat would be helpful?  Tell me specifically what to do.  I need to be away for a moment, will come back.
12:19.24fasta_kwtm: execute route on your phone and on your desktop as root
12:22.31kwtmfasta_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030279/
12:22.42DocScrutinizer06fasta_: the whole usb-networking is for usecase: share PC's internet via USB to N900
12:22.56fasta_DocScrutinizer06: I know
12:23.14DocScrutinizer06if you want to do: share N900 internet to PC, you have to swap roles of the both devices
12:23.42DocScrutinizer06on N900 default kernel, there are some bits missing for that
12:23.58kwtmfasta_: I should clarify: I am NOT sharing N900 internet to PC, just connect via USB so I can use PC keyboard, not tiny N900 keyboard.  Let me know if my info is still useful to you.
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12:24.12fasta_kwtm: I also want to do that.
12:24.14DocScrutinizer06at least afaik
12:24.23fasta_kwtm: 192.168.2.0     *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 usb0
12:24.30kwtmok, let me know if route output helpful or something else.
12:24.31fasta_kwtm: what does this line mean in human language?
12:25.11fasta_I get the usb0 part and the zeros aren't really important I think.
12:25.15kwtmfasta_: Other people more expert here, but basically, I think it means "anything going to the IP address 192.168.2.* will be routed through USB"
12:25.17fasta_I also get the 255 part.
12:25.54DocScrutinizer06kwtm: yup
12:26.01fasta_Ok, thanks.
12:28.46DocScrutinizer06fasta_: what is it you want to do?
12:29.12kwtmvi_: You wanted the scripts.  Here is the N900 part:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030289/
12:29.38fasta_DocScrutinizer06: ssh into phone via USB such that I can use my pc keyboard to execute commands on the phone.
12:30.20fasta_DocScrutinizer06: so, to do that, I first need to have proper networking configured.
12:30.21DocScrutinizer06for that the routes should already do the trick
12:30.35fasta_DocScrutinizer06: yes, but I don't have those routes.
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12:31.00fasta_Anyway, there is little to help now, as I first need to try something based on your earlier suggestions.
12:32.02DocScrutinizer06http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/unsorted/neo-ssh
12:32.38*** join/#maemo rcg (~rc@46.115.22.133)
12:32.44DocScrutinizer06just edit the IP addr in there
12:33.53kwtmvi_: You wanted the scripts.  Here is the desktop end of it.  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030296/
12:33.58DocScrutinizer06watch out your N900 IP addr is not on same subnet as your other stuff on PC
12:34.16DocScrutinizer06(I.E. not both on 192.168.1.*)
12:34.40kwtmneo-ssh?  A little matrixy, are we? :)
12:34.57DocScrutinizer06Openmoko Neo Freerunner aka GTA02
12:34.59*** join/#maemo Macer (mace@scientiam.org)
12:35.09MacerMS LIED TO US! THE BETA TEST IS *NOT* OVER!
12:35.17Macerlol
12:35.29kwtmOh. Sorry.  I thought the Matrix was entirely contained within your N900.
12:35.55kwtmDOes openmoko run Maemo?  If I see an old one, I could pick it up and use it like a N900?
12:36.06DocScrutinizer06no
12:36.08vi_o
12:36.10vi_no
12:36.15vi_openmoko runs nothing
12:36.15*** part/#maemo mrcarrot (~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot)
12:36.20DocScrutinizer06it runs a lot of OS but not maemo
12:36.26vi_people run FROM openmoko
12:36.28kwtmOh, well.  I guess I'm still stuck with the N900 then.
12:36.30vi_after using it.
12:36.31kwtmvi_: lol!
12:36.53DocScrutinizer06vi_: your very own problem
12:37.17Estel_DocScrutinizer, You would know about rebinding hardware keyboard of N900 properly, if You would read TMO ;) It was mentioned in thread, where You've also posted
12:37.18vi_I admit.  I have never actually seen one in real life.
12:37.41Estel_I have full sized keyboard mnapped to n900 one :P
12:37.45Estel_without changing layouts
12:38.05kwtmfasta_: Best of luck.
12:38.13Estel_vi_, honestly, Your assumption about running from wasn't so far from truth
12:38.19Estel_nice idea, terrible implementation
12:38.42vi_It was a joke.  I have no opinion on the openmoko.  I know pratically nothing about it.
12:38.42Estel_IMO, of course
12:38.52Estel_I got pleasure of testing one
12:38.57DocScrutinizer06I noticed that
12:39.11Estel_s/got/had/
12:39.27DocScrutinizer06most people commenting on OM have no idea at all, or at least very poor knowledge
12:39.50DocScrutinizer06oooh fuck, another regex due for my ignore
12:39.58Estel_vi_, it's a pity especially, that much hard work and knowledge were involve din creating them - yet, someone there was lacking "vision"
12:40.50vi_We engineers are not product designers.
12:41.08Estel_vi_, it will be little oxxagerated, but imagine smallest N900 with ~2.5 size screen with crappy resolution, without keyboard, running OS2006
12:41.16fasta_I have this GUI, where I need to fill in IP address:192.168.3.14, Netmask:???, Gateway:???, Metric:???. What do I need to put in the place of the ??? ?
12:41.32DocScrutinizer06vi_: eh?
12:41.33Estel_where task like pairing BLuetooth headset to have working phone calls is something out of scope for even biggest minds of their time ;)
12:41.56Estel_fasta_, netmask is you... netmask. Most likely, 255.255.255.0
12:42.14Estel_gateway - is, well, gateway. Next gateway Your connection is going through. Probably, router
12:42.16Estel_access point
12:42.17Estel_or whatever
12:42.27Estel_Metric - leave this alone if You don't know what it does :p
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12:45.41vi_They need a power control on a device.  We say, no problem! just put a pot on the front panel, job done.  The product 'designer' comes along and says 'a knob!! are you insane? this is not 1970 anymore, now we use touch buttons and LEDs'.  The engineer starts to respond 'but that adds a whole extra layer of ffffffuck to the design'.  The design 'engineer' says but it has to look sexy! and I want it as a ifone app'. 'but, but, but we say'.
12:45.55DocScrutinizer06vi_: GTA02 wasn't bad hardware wise for its time , and has an excellent 640*480 LCD. OS though never got mature, but in the end that's a community problem, as OM was definitely not selling the device as a complete end-user ready product
12:46.29Maceropenmoko doesn't run anything? :)
12:46.39MacerBUT IT HAS OPEN IN THE NAME!!
12:47.38Estel_GTA04 uses same screen, same body, and cost 666 euro for 512 RAM :/
12:47.40vi_I worked in a company making DML speakers.  The MD of 'engineering' was obsessed with making it work with his ifone.  He wanted it to be an ifone dock.  I said, 'make it bluetooth, then it will work with everything! (more or less)'.
12:47.48vi_He said:
12:47.49DocScrutinizer06vi_: and yes, at OM we also had a "design 'engineer'"
12:48.10vi_'I am not sure bluetooth is going to be big'
12:48.22vi_(or words to that effect, I cannot recall exactly).
12:48.31Estel_...which is answer why it resulted in computer bundled into form of dummbphone, failing to be any of those
12:48.45vi_I almost coughed my cornish pastie over my zx81.
12:48.57Estel_honestly, N900 design for is close to ideal. I mean screen covering whole front face, buttons and sides, and slide-out keyboard
12:48.59Estel_+ size
12:49.04vi_The word 'engineer' gets bandied about to often these days.
12:49.08Estel_a little bigger would be acceptable too, smaller - never
12:49.59Estel_BTW, vi_ , You're aware that we're working on 5A-6A battery for N900?:P
12:50.26vi_Estel_: my n900 is fat enough already!
12:50.34Estel_using mugen cover size
12:50.36Estel_approximatelyt
12:50.41fasta_If I configured something in network manager, is it applied directly?
12:50.55Estel_lol, i'm not talking about making it bigger, after all we can always connect car accu :P
12:51.01vi_will an 1850 fit inside a mugen cover?
12:51.11Estel_18650, won't using standard body
12:51.12vi_^18650
12:51.14Estel_using replacement body, yes
12:51.20Estel_if You get rid of bl-57 slot
12:51.26vi_what about some 14500s?
12:51.26Estel_and put there 18650 onek, instead
12:51.30kwtmDocScrutinizer06: I see that the digits at the end of your nick are incrementing.  Should we celebrate for when you turn 10? :)
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12:51.35Estel_nope, 14500 got crap capacity and are overpriced
12:51.42Estel_it's like AAA batteries
12:51.46vi_AA
12:51.49Estel_no, AAA
12:51.51Estel_AA are normal
12:51.53vi_AA
12:52.00Estel_AAA are smaller, live shorter, and cost the same or more
12:52.11Estel_I know, 14500 are AA size
12:52.27Estel_But I'm also considering different type flat batteries
12:52.37vi_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery
12:52.45Estel_ttI know what is AA battery ;)
12:52.58DocScrutinizer06kwtm: new laptop (T500), new irc client
12:52.59vi_AA=14mm*50mm
12:53.11DocScrutinizer06and 06 is the relogin
12:53.18Estel_i meant, that, like AAA are overpriced comapred to AA,14500 are overpriced compared to 186500
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12:54.07Estel_vi_, next 10 days (from monday) i'll be on trip, and I'll do first prototypes of custom backcover
12:54.10Estel_allu one
12:54.19Estel_with accomodation to radio signals
12:54.31Estel_after finishing backcove,r I'm  going to do body replacement
12:55.18Estel_and belive me, I'm going to put 5A or 6A battery there :P
12:55.34Estel_5Ah, even
12:56.11vi_Estel_: wouldn't you be better stuffing a lipo pouch in the space?
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12:56.37Estel_probably not
12:57.09Estel_If You know decent one of good size
12:57.14Estel_and good capacity
12:57.20Estel_...that won't disssapear like scuds...
12:57.26Hurrianawright, Overclocking page updated to better reflect current state of OC and UX
12:57.28Hurrian*UV
12:57.37Estel_Ultra Violet?
12:57.42vi_raises his glass to Hurrian.
12:57.54Hurrian>.2.2.2.1 Nokia's kernel
12:57.54Estel_vi_, phillips release 3400 mAh 18650 recently
12:58.11Estel_and I bet it's not their last word
12:58.16vi_Estel_: hah, at 20mA discharge I bet!
12:58.22Estel_I bet that we will have 8Ah battery soon, too
12:58.24Estel_nope
12:58.25Estel_C10
12:58.26DocScrutinizer05Hurrian: I didn't realize OC and UV had a changing current state
12:58.57Estel_vi_, whatever, N900 on idle with GSM on haved 4-8 mA discharge :P
12:59.35Estel_Hurrian, link please?
12:59.45Estel_BTw, hurrian, remind me, do You submitted to CA?
13:01.27HurrianEstel_, yeah
13:01.57HurrianEstel_:http://wiki.maemo.org/Overclocking
13:03.12Estel_I';mstill surprised, that vi_ submitted *only* for N950, i.e. won't accept N9 in cas eof N950 being already submitted
13:03.39Estel_after all, for price of N9, one can have many N900's
13:03.59Estel_Hurrian, nice job
13:04.27Hurrianbah, fixed <pre>'s
13:04.33Hurrianit's been years since I used that tag
13:06.13vi_Estel_: why?
13:06.17vi_I want an N950
13:06.32vi_When you select the winners you will find there is extra pressure for N950s
13:06.46vi_you will then prioritise N950s for people who asked for N950s only.
13:09.19vi_I am not entering because I want free fonez
13:09.36vi_If I wanted an N9 I would have bought one by now.
13:12.14HurrianEstel_, thanks
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13:21.31HurrianTODO: turn the tables into actual tables
13:21.39HurrianTODO: make the kernel-power page not awful
13:22.51Estel_+1
13:23.00Estel_always wanted to do that, and never got enough free time
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13:23.50MrPinguHi, back from short vacation :)
13:25.29Estel_nice to see You MrPingu  :)
13:25.34Estel_hoep You enjoyed it
13:26.26MrPingusure! 4 days with 12 other peers and knowing that your parents are about 100Km away feels great :P
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13:28.13MrPinguI see there's a new CSSU :)  
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13:31.48MrPinguFsck, they send me another fake digitizer :(
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13:32.51MrPinguAnyone knows a good website where they sell 100% genuine N900 digitizers?
13:33.26SpeedEvil:/
13:33.28SpeedEvilhow fake?
13:33.57MrPinguUhm, lcd is a bit off to left from the view-window
13:34.07MrPinguno keyboard-sensor-magnet
13:34.17DocScrutinizer05EH?
13:34.45MrPinguit's a bit bigger, no serial numbe
13:34.46DocScrutinizer05what got kbd magnet to do with digitizer?
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13:35.16MrPinguwell I ordered a whole frontcover ;)
13:35.30DocScrutinizer05err, mhm
13:36.09MrPinguStill, no serial number is defenitely fake!
13:36.38DocScrutinizer05maybe, maybe not
13:37.05MrPinguI got some high res pics, fake compared to original ;)
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13:37.11MrPinguLemme find them ;)
13:37.15DocScrutinizer05fine, show them
13:37.46DocScrutinizer05I'd actually love to see a fake digitizer
13:38.33DocScrutinizer05it's kinda incredible they copy such stuff, given the extremely low sales figures they might expect
13:38.44fasta_I get a routing table like this now: http://paste.kde.org/495434/
13:38.57fasta_I don't understand why I get such weird device names, though.
13:39.14fasta_And basically with that routing table, I cannot use the Internet via eth0.
13:41.28DocScrutinizer05yay, that looks nasty
13:41.34MrPinguDocscrutinizer05, well another problem with my fake frontcover is that the images of the first welcome screen (setting time) couldn't be found
13:41.55vi__???
13:42.15vi__dafuq cover has to do with welcome screen?
13:42.32MrPinguvi__ dont ask me :P
13:42.45DocScrutinizer05fasta_: no surprise
13:42.55MrPingureally, when I replaced it, I booted
13:43.11MrPinguWell battery was long enough out to make it forget it's time
13:43.27MrPinguthen you get booted into welcome-screen
13:43.38fasta_DocScrutinizer05: well, I am also not hugely surprised, but I am surprised by rename4.
13:43.40*** join/#maemo lbt (~david@78.32.229.233)
13:43.40vi__sounds like more than your cover is broke.
13:43.44*** join/#maemo lbt (~david@Maemo/community/contributor/lbt)
13:43.56fasta_DocScrutinizer05: also, can you say something which solves the problem?
13:44.07Estel_MrPingu, wtf?
13:44.10DocScrutinizer05fasta_: this whole routing is one huge mess I'd say
13:44.15vi__is welcome screen all boxes?
13:44.17MrPinguto my surprise: All buttons where displayed with a big red tekxt image not found
13:44.22fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I agree.
13:44.39fasta_DocScrutinizer05: but I don't see any instructions anywhere on how to setup something decent with network-manager.
13:44.41Estel_MrPingu, it definitelly doesn't have anything to do with digitizer
13:44.46vi__opt is fecked up
13:44.47DocScrutinizer05fasta_: I found sometimes kernel soesn't recover from messed up routing, you need reboot to restore normal operation
13:44.52MrPinguso something in the upper-part of N900 contains these images ;)
13:44.54fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I know exactly what I want, but I just cannot express it.
13:44.58Estel_MrPingu, as vi__ said, Your opt was not connected
13:45.06fasta_I can express it in human language perfectly.
13:45.09Estel_no, really it doesn't
13:45.22MrPinguNo way, I mean I even reflashed
13:45.22Estel_MrPingu, coincidence
13:45.30Estel_interesting
13:45.32DocScrutinizer05I never made *manager to play nice with USB routing
13:45.37fasta_DocScrutinizer05: if I disable the n900 connection, I can use IRC.
13:45.40Estel_you know, it's absolutely impossible, but if You experienced it, it's worth investigation
13:45.43fasta_DocScrutinizer05: like I am doing now.
13:45.46MrPinguwhen I replaced my original back, welcome screen was normal
13:45.59Estel_MrPingu, you, most liukely, aren't willing to try replacing again
13:46.05Estel_but I would be very itnereste din results
13:46.18Estel_as I'm 10101038478 % sure, that upper part of N900 doesn't have anything to do with images
13:46.37Estel_so, if You would still get such results, it would mean thatm msome poart block eMMC
13:46.41Estel_but how?
13:47.04Estel_BTw, where are these pictures? I want to see fake digitizer too
13:47.13Estel_BTw, MrPingu, what is Your price limit for original digitizer?
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13:47.21Estel_and, what about it's condition? It must be 100% perfect?
13:48.05Estel_I got access to used N900 digitizers dissasembled from faulty units
13:48.09Estel_for very good prices
13:48.13Estel_although, conditions vary
13:48.29Estel_most of them is quite usable, after applying protector foil You don't see any scratches, not matter what
13:48.31Estel_no*
13:49.52vi__estel, n900 pimp
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13:50.17Estel_:P
13:50.18MrPinguMeh I can't find pictures, give me another sec
13:50.57vi__it is worth paying for real parts.
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13:51.09vi__the chinky knockoffs are shit.
13:51.19MrPinguBtw how can my device function normal if opt isn't mounted?
13:51.19fasta_DocScrutinizer05:  http://paste.kde.org/495434/ ifconfig -a output
13:51.33MrPinguAfter welcome screen everything worked fine ;)
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13:51.42fasta_Linux is supposedly 'open', but here its operation is as opaque as it can be.
13:52.22DocScrutinizer05actually running neo-ssh involved shutting down network-manager first
13:52.22DocScrutinizer05NM config done by distro-install-tools never usually is prepared to handle more than the usual NICs
13:52.22DocScrutinizer05and definitely not any downlink
13:52.22DocScrutinizer05NM will always try to setup N900 as another NIC
13:52.23DocScrutinizer05and that's not what you want
13:52.23DocScrutinizer05unless you want to share N900 internet to PC
13:52.23DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: there's definitely no storage in digitizer :-D
13:52.24DocScrutinizer05I however could see how system-init does funny things when input device throws error
13:52.24DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: without /opt no normal operation
13:52.24DocScrutinizer05that's exactly what you observed
13:52.25DocScrutinizer05I guess
13:53.24DocScrutinizer05fasta_: this pastie looks like route to me
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13:53.48MrPinguNo I only observed faulty welcome screen, after that it was fine ;)
13:54.14fasta_DocScrutinizer05: http://paste.kde.org/495440/ sorry about that
13:54.17MrPinguI am still as surprised as you guys :P
13:54.18DocScrutinizer05fasta_: and btw is same URL you already posted
13:56.11DocScrutinizer05fasta_: your USB gateway is 192.168.3.14 - and has P-t-P?? :-o
13:56.38DocScrutinizer05fasta_: NM tries to configure that as DSL modem or whatever
13:56.51DocScrutinizer05or USB UMTS stick
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13:57.45DocScrutinizer05fasta_: toldya NM won't play with USB networking as you want to establish it
13:59.30MrPinguhttp://www.imgur.com/a/Ie33c/all
13:59.43MrPingusorry you need to rotate the images yourself...
14:00.44MrPingu1 + 3 : serial numbers
14:00.51MrPingu2: magnet
14:01.05MrPingu4 Notification Led lens
14:01.22*** join/#maemo vi__ (~user@87.114.253.30)
14:01.43DocScrutinizer05what's with the lens?
14:02.15MrPinguMy ordered cover didn't have one ;)
14:02.20DocScrutinizer05LOL
14:02.42MrPinguTried to attach it to the fake, but no go...
14:02.57vi__who wants to compile a maemo vdersion of roxterm?
14:02.58fasta_DocScrutinizer05: why do all Linux distributions ship such utter crap then?
14:03.07vi__I will email you a donut.
14:03.13fasta_DocScrutinizer05: and how should I configure it? Just in /etc/network/interfaces?
14:03.22vi__fasta_: welcome to FOSS.
14:03.24fasta_DocScrutinizer05: do you also use Linux?
14:03.29MrPinguNow I am still using that fscked screen I once showed you ;)
14:03.31DocScrutinizer05surew
14:03.37fasta_vi__: not all FOSS is crap.
14:04.01DocScrutinizer05fasta_: it's utter crap only if you want to do unusual things ;-)
14:04.08*** join/#maemo Gh0sty (~ghosty@77.109.122.23)
14:04.15fasta_Also, configuring network interfaces isn't something which is difficult for a programmer to get right.
14:04.23DocScrutinizer05fasta_: and I guess you just have to shutdown NM
14:04.32DocScrutinizer05and do all the network config manually
14:04.37fasta_I.e., if not someone else already ruined it.
14:04.44*** join/#maemo etrunko (~etrunko@187.116.115.9)
14:04.45fasta_How does OpenBSD do it?
14:04.52DocScrutinizer05NFC
14:04.58fasta_DocScrutinizer05: ?
14:05.05DocScrutinizer05~nfc
14:05.06infobotwell, nfc is No Fucking Clue, or near field communications
14:05.34*** join/#maemo fuz_ (nobody@vau75-10-88-164-23-88.fbx.proxad.net)
14:06.06DocScrutinizer05fasta_: toldya I had to shutdown *manager prior to running http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/unsorted/neo-ssh
14:06.24DocScrutinizer05and that's it
14:06.30DocScrutinizer05maybe also stop firewall
14:07.06fasta_DocScrutinizer05: yes, but I would like to have a setup where I just plug it in and udev automatically runs for example your script.
14:07.22DocScrutinizer05that doesn't work
14:07.28DocScrutinizer05Nm forbids
14:07.37fasta_Huh
14:07.54fasta_I mean: I can uninstall network-manager.
14:07.59DocScrutinizer05HaleBopp:~ # ifup eth0
14:08.01DocScrutinizer05Network interface is managed by the NetworkManager -> skipping
14:08.17MrPinguEstel_, you have some digitizers? I guess I want to buy it for about 30-40 EUR ;)
14:08.17fasta_So, how can it forbid it then if it is not installed?
14:09.20DocScrutinizer05fasta_: nah, you got me wrong. Sure uninstalling NM is a feasible way
14:09.54DocScrutinizer05as this will cahnge the response to ifup as quoted above
14:10.01*** join/#maemo aloril (~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi)
14:10.52DocScrutinizer05as long as your system is configured for NM, you can't administrate NICs manually
14:11.14DocScrutinizer05or at least I don't know how you do
14:12.23DocScrutinizer05the netto result of all this: I unistalled NM on my old laptop, settting up my network the classical way
14:13.22DocScrutinizer05as in the end NM was even interfering with flashing
14:14.16DocScrutinizer05since once long ago I dared to configure USB as a regular NIC, in my suse yast
14:15.00DocScrutinizer05in an futile effort to make it work with NM
14:16.01DocScrutinizer05bottom line: NM only knows how to handle uplinks to internet
14:18.31DocScrutinizerMrPingu: http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/product_info.php/info/p4369_Original-Nokia-N900-A-Cover-Touchscreen.html
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14:27.02DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: I gather your in .nl, so I guess you could buy at some european shop like saremi
14:28.01DocScrutinizer05you're*
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14:40.40MrPinguYeh Thanks, yep I am from NL ;)
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14:52.39fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I got it to work via some instructions from some Russian website.
14:52.53fasta_I do however now get: NO_PUBKEY 6713C33F3F027BB1 during apt-get update.
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14:53.46DocScrutinizer05fasta_: that seems to be unrelated
14:54.00fasta_DocScrutinizer05: yes, it's completely unrelated.
14:54.30fasta_DocScrutinizer05: perhaps I should have used XML tags: <completely unrelated but also a problem>.
14:54.40DocScrutinizer05fasta_: would you mind to share telegram style of what you did to get it working?
14:55.00fasta_http://max.vseborice.net/n900-usb-networking
14:55.08fasta_It's basically that.
14:55.11DocScrutinizer05(no Russian knowledge here)
14:55.13fasta_I nuked network manager.
14:55.19fasta_I also don't speak Russian.
14:55.34DocScrutinizer05yeah, nuking NM is the key
14:55.43DocScrutinizer05the rest is 'easy'
14:55.48fasta_DocScrutinizer05: well, another key is the udev configuration.
14:55.58fasta_DocScrutinizer05: all the planets have to be aligned.
14:56.03DocScrutinizer05sure, that's for advanced fun
14:56.09*** join/#maemo t_s_o (~tso@84.48.230.202)
14:56.27fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I was surprised that starting xchat, via the ssh shell started it on the device, and not on my desktop.
14:56.39fasta_I did ssh -X
14:56.51fasta_That's not supposed to happen, right?
14:57.04DocScrutinizer05I think -X doesn't work with hildon
14:57.14fasta_hildon?
14:57.22DocScrutinizer05there are some mini howtos about that
14:57.28fasta_Also how can I check via the command line which version I am running?
14:57.35fasta_E.g. community version X?
14:57.46DocScrutinizer05hildon -> basically maemo X
14:58.55DocScrutinizer05check out maemo scratchbox & xephyr
14:59.10rm_worki used to run Eclipse on my N900
14:59.11*** join/#maemo krayon (~krayon@pdpc/supporter/28for7/krayon)
14:59.16rm_workvia ssh -X
14:59.30rm_workit wasn't the easiest thing to use, but it was pretty cool :P
14:59.40rm_workdefinately works
14:59.41fasta_DocScrutinizer05: is that something I want on my phone or on my desktop?
14:59.48DocScrutinizer05yeah, but genuine maemo hildon apps won't forward via -X afaik
14:59.59rm_workah
15:00.08rm_workmaemo xchat, not desktop xchat?
15:00.13rm_worknm then, dunno ;P
15:00.19fasta_I am currently running 20.2010.36-2maemon16.8
15:00.39fasta_That's not the newest, I think?
15:00.48DocScrutinizer05fasta_: SB&xephyr emulate maemo desktop on PC
15:00.56*** join/#maemo vi__ (~user@178.107.251.22)
15:01.17DocScrutinizer05AIUI xephyr somehow manages to "remote link" to hildon desktop
15:01.20fasta_DocScrutinizer05: so they don't even require a phone?
15:01.38DocScrutinizer05exactly, if you run maemo in SB quemu
15:02.02DocScrutinizer05but afaik you could also connect xephyr to real device
15:02.50DocScrutinizer05I think all genuine maemo apps rely on N900 screen dimensions etc
15:02.58vi__~xephyr
15:03.43SpeedEvilA very few apps I tried when I tested it starting them with display set to my PC worked at other than n900 screen dimensions
15:03.46DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29386
15:04.04SpeedEvilMost of them minimally ported apps with no hildonising
15:04.20DocScrutinizer05indeed
15:04.28DocScrutinizer05hildonizing defeats -X
15:04.57DocScrutinizer05unless you use xephyr (or other compatibly configured dedicated Xserver)
15:05.22DocScrutinizer05that's why usually you use vnc for that
15:05.31DocScrutinizer05...I heard
15:06.31DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation
15:07.42DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#What_is_not_included_in_the_Maemo_SDK.3F -> xwphyr
15:07.50DocScrutinizer05xephyr even
15:09.10fasta_How can I add the public key to get rid of the problem above?
15:09.25*** join/#maemo rcg (~rc@g226028015.adsl.alicedsl.de)
15:10.12DocScrutinizer05I think it's a commonly encountered problem that hmmm ... fixes itself the day after?
15:11.07DocScrutinizer05no idea actually, except I've seen this line of complaint so many times
15:12.02DocScrutinizer05maybe somebody else here actually encountered the problem and knows what it needs to get it fixed
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15:12.31DocScrutinizer05afaik it's a problem on the 'far end'
15:14.01fasta_I think I know how to solve it.
15:14.24fasta_I don't know in principle whether I am now trusting someone I shouldn't, though.
15:14.27DocScrutinizer05ignore? :-D
15:14.49fasta_There seems to be a whole forest of public keys floating around for Maemo related stuff.
15:15.03DocScrutinizer05:nod:
15:15.20fasta_maemo.org community repositories (diablo) <repositories@maemo.org>
15:15.31DocScrutinizer05YAY
15:15.31fasta_Does that diablo thing mean anything to you?
15:15.40DocScrutinizer05what are you doing with diablo?
15:15.47fasta_I don't know.
15:15.53fasta_If it's old, I can likely disable it.
15:15.53DocScrutinizer05it's maemo4, for N8xx
15:16.01fasta_Ok, so then I will want to remove that.
15:16.08DocScrutinizer05yep!
15:16.20*** part/#maemo rcg (~rc@g226028015.adsl.alicedsl.de)
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15:17.13DocScrutinizer05~repositories
15:17.13infobotrepositories are frequently old.
15:17.17fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I only have these:  http://paste.kde.org/495524
15:17.18DocScrutinizer05meh
15:17.44fasta_DocScrutinizer05: is there anything old about those?
15:18.28DocScrutinizer05you probably don't want community-testing
15:18.40DocScrutinizer05the rest looks sane to me
15:19.28DocScrutinizer05though usually you enable extras-devel only temporarily to install a particular pkg
15:20.01DocScrutinizer05and never do apt-get upgrade!
15:20.02fasta_DocScrutinizer05:  W: Ignoring Provides line with DepCompareOp for package binutils <- what's that?
15:20.13DocScrutinizer05nfc
15:21.09DocScrutinizer05I gather it's a W arning
15:21.28DocScrutinizer05never seen this when disabling a repo in HAM
15:22.28DocScrutinizer05generally you should manage your repos in HAM, not in xterm via apt-foo et al
15:22.31fasta_Ok, I disabled extras-devel and now it's now there anymore.
15:22.44fasta_Is apt-get upgrade safe now?
15:22.50DocScrutinizer05no way
15:23.02DocScrutinizer05apt-get upgrade never is safe on maemo
15:23.07fasta_What is safe?
15:23.25DocScrutinizer05HAM
15:23.55DocScrutinizer05it's friggin slow, but the only certified and supported way
15:23.59fasta_Ok, and why can't I install a new version of maemo just via apt-get?
15:24.19DocScrutinizer05because maemo packaging is fubar
15:24.49fasta_So, I basically have to follow those instructions including backing up, etc.?
15:24.57DocScrutinizer05yes
15:25.18fasta_Is it possible to use the infrared of the device to control an analog TV?
15:25.27DocScrutinizer05yes
15:25.30fasta_I saw some application for that.
15:25.36fasta_That's just so cool.
15:25.38DocScrutinizer05though range is very limited
15:25.48DocScrutinizer05some 2 m maybe
15:26.08DocScrutinizer05depends on TV
15:26.59fasta_It would be nice if I could just get a system image from some very experienced user, such that I could see how they experience the n900.
15:27.18DocScrutinizer05I had it working with IRReco, but not with the Qt spawn
15:27.19fasta_With Linux it's a bit the same; if you don't configure it well, it's useless.
15:27.53DocScrutinizer05:nod:
15:27.58rm_worki got irreco to... kind of work. once, on one TV
15:28.06rm_workbut all it could do was volume and power
15:28.12rm_workcouldn't get the rest
15:28.12DocScrutinizer05alas I'm not going to share a complete diskimage :-D
15:28.40fasta_DocScrutinizer05: because of all your contacts, private stuff?
15:28.45DocScrutinizer05yep
15:28.59fasta_Isn't it easy to delete that information somehow automatically?
15:29.13fasta_Then you could get a whole 'sharing of diskimages' community.
15:29.17fasta_Just a thought.
15:30.05fasta_It tells me that I can install the Maemo 5 Community SSU Package. Will that wipe everything if I say 'sure, install that'.
15:30.07fasta_?
15:30.08DocScrutinizer05should be feasible
15:30.37DocScrutinizer05dang, you still have a repo for CSSU configured
15:30.52fasta_I shouldn't do that?
15:30.58DocScrutinizer05it's guaranteed to break if you just install it, i'd guess
15:31.05DocScrutinizer05~cssu
15:31.05infobotcssu is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
15:31.15fasta_I feel just so stupid in this channel, while I have no problems with any other Linux.
15:31.27DocScrutinizer05np, that's usual
15:31.34DocScrutinizer05and will go away soon
15:32.07DocScrutinizer05maybe this will give you some ideas, though it's mainly advances stuff:
15:32.10DocScrutinizer05~jrtools
15:32.10infobotjrtools is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
15:36.18fasta_Does the backup remember what I had installed via HAM?
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15:44.08fasta_http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU says 'install backupmenu', but what does it mean by that? I.e. does it want me to do apt-get install (I am sure that would work), or is there some other assumption here?
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15:48.14kaaweeHello! Nokia warranty service has received my N900 (with defective touchscreen) and now they say they have disposed it, but they cannot repair it and they also cannot replace it by another N900, but they offer an E7 or an N8. This does not seem to be acceptable for me? Any recommendations how to react? I'd either like an N900 or something better or equivalent.
15:48.52SpeedEvilThere are no equivalents.
15:49.05SpeedEvilN9 is in some ways the closest.
15:49.13kaaweeCould I ask for an N950?
15:49.28SpeedEvilWork out which you can sell for more on ebay, and purchase a replacement second-hand n900 if you want to go that route.
15:49.41SpeedEvilYOu could ask, but they are not for sale, so I'd be astonished if you got one
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15:52.06DocScrutinizer05fasta_: (Does the backup remember) yes;  'install backupmenu' go to HAM and search for backupmenu
15:52.26fasta_DocScrutinizer05: the problem with HAM is that I need to know the category in advance, no?
15:52.33DocScrutinizer05apt-get install may work too
15:52.45DocScrutinizer05no, there's a cat 'all'
15:52.46fasta_DocScrutinizer05: i.e. algorithm: try every category and in every category search for backupmenu.
15:52.52fasta_DocScrutinizer05: oh, great. How?
15:53.03DocScrutinizer05upper left IIRC
15:53.04fasta_(surely, I would never try all of them in this case)
15:53.20fasta_DocScrutinizer05: got it. Thanks
15:53.24DocScrutinizer05yw
15:53.55fasta_If so many people want a n950, why don't they just sell them?
15:54.08SpeedEvilGood question.
15:54.09DocScrutinizer05good question
15:54.11fasta_They are a business, right?
15:54.12DocScrutinizer05:-P
15:54.37DocScrutinizer05no, they are elopized
15:54.59fasta_Can't the stock holders fire him?
15:55.07DocScrutinizer05dunno
15:55.09fasta_er shareholders
15:55.19DocScrutinizer05seems they are happy with his nonsense
15:55.34fasta_I got to vote for some of my shares.
15:55.44fasta_Except I got the memo a month after the vote.
15:55.53fasta_Yeah... sure, they could vote.
15:56.28DocScrutinizer05you got NOK shares? condolences
15:56.34fasta_No
15:56.56fasta_I was thinking of going short NOK, though.
15:57.11DocScrutinizer05you meant shareholders, and I meant board
15:57.17fasta_That was right after the announcement of their craptastic move.
15:57.33fasta_DocScrutinizer05: yes, I corrected myself already.
15:57.37Estel_MrPingu, yea, I have access to genuine ones
15:57.44DocScrutinizer05the shareholders probably can't do anything
15:57.44fasta_DocScrutinizer05: see the 'er shareholders' part.
15:57.47Estel_BTw, LOL at lack of hole for notification led
15:58.09DocScrutinizer05the board is happy with their new master
15:58.11Estel_but, MrPingu, as I've said, digitizers I got access to are used ones
15:58.39Estel_what about condition required by You? I'll search for ones that comply with your needs, and inform you about price
15:59.00DocScrutinizer05yeah, I seen that part, and corrected myself as well
15:59.19fasta_Why does the installation of backupmenu give this huge warning?
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15:59.29DocScrutinizer05ignore it
15:59.36DocScrutinizer05whatever it is
15:59.36fasta_All it needs to do is read some information; how dangerous can it possibly be?
15:59.48fasta_(well, and write it to some file)
15:59.51DocScrutinizer05restoring *can* be dangerous
16:00.18DocScrutinizer05and it has some nifty battery charging that needs i2ctools
16:00.49DocScrutinizer05the warning afaik is about i2ctools as I didn't feel like removing this warning from the original package
16:00.55DocScrutinizer05i2ctools are dangerous
16:01.18fasta_Dangerous like rm -rf /* is dangerous?
16:01.34fasta_I mean: either the software works, or it doesn't.
16:01.35DocScrutinizer05don't mess with i2ctools unless you know what you're doing (backupmenu knows ;-D)
16:01.48fasta_Ok
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16:02.50DocScrutinizer05(dangerous like in "oops, now I erased this calibration data and whole firmware of the ALS sensor)
16:04.00DocScrutinizer05BM knows what to do with I2Ctools, so forget the warning, and forget there's a thing called i2cset
16:05.23DocScrutinizer05btw this warning is one of the reasons when apt-get install might fail
16:05.58DocScrutinizer05there are some pkgs like that which you better install via HAM rather than apt-get
16:07.17DocScrutinizer05pkgs are tested for installation via HAM, it's not guaranteed they all install nicely via any other installer
16:08.36DocScrutinizer05(and in fact it's hard to catch an apt-get install from inside the pkg, and do only compatible things in that case)
16:10.00DocScrutinizer05(otherwise we would've changed the warning requester popup to a "echo warning >2" when pkg gets installed via plain apt-get)
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17:09.09Atariifreemangordon you there? what's the libcurl3 version i need installed?
17:17.34kaaweeIs it possible to flash Maemo or Meego onto a Nokia E7?
17:22.50freemangordonAtarii: How am I sopposed to know which version of libcurl3 YOU have installed on YOUR device ?!?
17:22.56freemangordon*supposed
17:23.04AtariiI'm not asking that
17:23.09freemangordondamn, check it
17:23.26freemangordonAtarii: sorry, misread your question
17:23.26AtariiI'm asking the version YOU said should fix the MfE issue
17:23.29Atariiah :)
17:23.44DocScrutinizer05kaawee: no
17:24.15freemangordonAtarii: 7.25.0-1maemo7
17:24.31Atariidamn ok thanks
17:24.37DocScrutinizer05:-D
17:25.03AtariiI did an update, libcurl3 was listed, but still on 7.18.2-8maemo6
17:25.06Atariistrange thigns afoot
17:25.13Atariithings*
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17:47.31freemangordonAtarii: do apt-get install libcurl3
17:48.32fasta_I started cutetube, but how do I exit it?
17:49.38fasta_nm
17:50.11fasta_It seems impossible to run it in the background, unfortunately.
17:52.38fasta_Also, after I have upgraded CCSU, I just need to run the restore from the boot menu?
17:54.21fasta_DocScrutinizer05: when I click on 'stable', it justs says 'operation failed' in HAM.
17:55.02fasta_DocScrutinizer05: it also seems that all of my repositories have been deleted?!
17:55.19DocScrutinizer05fasta_: please read instructions on
17:55.21DocScrutinizer05~cssu
17:55.21infobothmm... cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
17:55.37Woody14619apt-get can be used to figure out why it's failing.  I've used apt-get for installing backupmenu and other things.  You just have to keep an eye on the screen at times, as some installers like that pop up a "click ok" message to acknowledge you read the warning.
17:56.09DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: yep, that's just one issue
17:56.33Woody14619I actually use apt-get for about 90% of my installs, so I can see wtf it's doing. :)  I have enough "magic" in my life as it is without adding to it.
17:56.55DocScrutinizer05depending on environment, the requester also might fail to pop up at all and thus the install will abort
17:57.22Woody14619.oO(That, and I screw around with things a lot, so my N900 isn't exactly "typical" or "stock", which most packages expect)
17:57.47DocScrutinizer05fasta_: make sure you don't run any other installers or whatever in parallel to CSSU install
17:57.58fasta_The problem in this case, is that I didn't instruct the machine to delete repositories.
17:58.03DocScrutinizer05follow the instructions, and don't do other things in parallel
17:58.05Woody14619Actually, the CSSU version has fixed that, so the dep_pkg tools emmit a warning and move on. :)
17:58.33fasta_I followed the instructions on the website.
17:58.48fasta_(and I read the FAQ)
17:58.56DocScrutinizer05fasta_: CSSU will configure repositories, unless you're interferring by watching what's going on there and thus blocking stuff
17:59.31DocScrutinizer05to me it sounds like you didn't even finish the installation
18:00.06fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I didn't even start it.
18:00.20DocScrutinizer05umm???
18:00.32fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I just pressed the stable button, then it said it had to enable all kinds of repositories.
18:00.43fasta_DocScrutinizer05: so, after than I exited HAM.
18:00.50fasta_DocScrutinizer05: perhaps I shouldn't have done that.
18:01.05fasta_DocScrutinizer05: but I don't see why that should cause a problem.
18:01.30fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I also set 'ignore the CSSU update'.
18:01.44DocScrutinizer05you should do *exactly* what's written on ~cssu
18:01.46fasta_DocScrutinizer05: but I was assuming that I could get it back if I manually started it.
18:01.58fasta_DocScrutinizer05: ok, how can I 'unignore' that now?
18:02.05DocScrutinizer05LOL
18:02.10DocScrutinizer05NFc
18:02.19fasta_(and where does HAM store its repositories?)
18:02.37DocScrutinizer05why do you wanna know that?
18:02.40fasta_The instructions didn't mention the scenario I was in.
18:02.52fasta_DocScrutinizer05: because I do see the repositories listed in /etc/apt/...
18:03.00fasta_DocScrutinizer05: but they don't come up in HAM.
18:03.18DocScrutinizer05that's why you're not supposed to edit those in /etc/apt
18:03.26DocScrutinizer05you always edit repos in HAM
18:04.21fasta_Ok, so now I got a message again that there is an update.
18:05.02DocScrutinizer05how about installing it then? like suggested on ~cssu, in breathtaking verbosity
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18:06.19DocScrutinizer05honestly, the instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU couldn't be any more detailed
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18:06.56DocScrutinizer05so we thought it's implicitly clear you don't need additional steps to mess with repos on your own, in xterm, or anything
18:07.01fasta_DocScrutinizer05: it's running now.
18:07.44fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I prefer just running a command instead of following instructions and pushing buttons.
18:08.04DocScrutinizer05sorry, I can't help then
18:08.07fasta_E.g. wget http://maemo.org/magiccommandsequence && ./magiccommandsequence
18:08.20fasta_Well, with an additional chmod +x
18:08.27fasta_And perhaps gainroot.
18:08.31fasta_Anyway, you get the idea.
18:08.37DocScrutinizer05not really
18:08.43fasta_Then there is also no discussion about 'user error'.
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18:09.24fasta_It's a computer; if I need to 'follow steps', it means that those are steps which could also have been performed by a program.
18:09.39DocScrutinizer05hell, quite a number of people invested weeks of work each, to make user experience on installing CSSU a warm breeze
18:10.05fasta_I am not saying it's bad.
18:10.11DocScrutinizer05we're not going to write up a hacker's_howto_CSSU for your pleasure
18:10.32fasta_I am not saying you should.
18:10.44DocScrutinizer05after all there's a reason CSSU install works the way it does
18:10.55fasta_Because it needs to use HAM?
18:11.00fasta_And HAM is not programmable?
18:11.07DocScrutinizer05as it's not exactly trivial to switch repos from an installation
18:11.18DocScrutinizer05yes
18:11.33fasta_Well, those are valid reasons.
18:11.47fasta_Next question would be why HAM could not be extended ;)
18:12.08DocScrutinizer05it WILL be extended, IN CSSU ;-P
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18:12.56fasta_Ok, I think it worked :)
18:13.08DocScrutinizer05how to update apt: apt-get purge apt-get; apt-get install apt-get
18:13.10DocScrutinizer05XP
18:13.30DocScrutinizer05hope you got the pun
18:13.35fasta_Yes
18:13.42fasta_I am not _that_ ignorant.
18:14.00fasta_Although, I don't see the correspondence.
18:14.05fasta_So, perhaps I am stupid.
18:14.12DocScrutinizer05HAM is
18:14.50fasta_It appears faster, or is the just wishing for it to be faster?
18:14.56fasta_In particular scrolling.
18:14.57DocScrutinizer05the whole CSSU upgrade is like a huge apt-get update
18:15.20fasta_Isn't it more like installing a new distro?
18:15.34DocScrutinizer05not exactly
18:15.47DocScrutinizer05more like upgrading a whole distro
18:16.00fasta_dist-upgrade, then :)
18:16.13DocScrutinizer05which will break stuff
18:16.36DocScrutinizer05due to maemo packaging not compatible with dist-upgrade
18:16.53DocScrutinizer05that's why you need HAM
18:17.22DocScrutinizer05and HAM is not scriptable
18:17.48DocScrutinizer05believe me there are good reasons why CSSU install works this and no other way
18:17.56fasta_Well, everything is scriptable if you put some effort in it.
18:18.15fasta_I.e., if you would hack the binary and add your own interfaces.
18:18.23fasta_I mean, it's the same thing hackers do.
18:18.43fasta_It's not really 'proper engineering', though.
18:18.45DocScrutinizer05sorry, afk
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19:42.45fasta_What's the resolution of the front camera?
19:43.00fasta_It seems extremely bad; much worse than even a laptop camera.
19:43.17fasta_Or does it needs some configuration to look somewhat decent?
19:47.36luke-jr640x480
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19:59.12Raimufasta_: Yes, it's just really horrible and light-unsensitive.
20:00.01RaimuI think it's useless, unless you for some reason want to check yourself using the Mirror app in broad daylight or something.
20:00.05fasta_Raimu: the normal camera also isn't that good, right?
20:00.33RaimuWell, I think the back camera is pretty nice.
20:00.38fasta_Is there some way I can test the front camera without any other factors (like Internet speed)?
20:00.53fasta_The photos also don't appear to be sharp.
20:01.00fasta_It's jpeg compressed already.
20:01.08fasta_How can I set jpeg compression to 0?
20:01.13fasta_I.e. quality 100.
20:01.43RaimuThere're threads about it talk.maemo.org, but Fcamera-based applications can just save shots into raw format.
20:02.01Woody14619fasta_ hit tmo.  there was a topic on there about using the front camera with gstreamer commands directly, disabling jpg as inline.
20:02.26fasta_Woody14619: and is there a noticable difference?
20:02.27Woody14619It's still ugly, and  I believe it is vga (640x480), but reasonable for skype and other such apps.
20:02.46fasta_Woody14619: well, I just used it over skype and there were even blocks visible.
20:02.52Woody14619I noted the cpu use is much lower than mirror, but image quality wise? not a lot...
20:02.54fasta_Woody14619: I mean like 3 by 4 cm blocks.
20:03.11Woody14619oh.. well. better than that. :)
20:03.13fasta_Woody14619: I also noticed there was a delay of about 3 minutes in the actual video.
20:03.30Woody14619That sounds more like a bandwidth issue...
20:03.30fasta_Woody14619: so, it seems like the device couldn't keep up or something like that.
20:03.46fasta_Woody14619: which is why I would like to test the front camera without Internet interference.
20:04.13fasta_I think I only have like 100KB/s upload per second, so that's most like the explanation.
20:04.21fasta_minus the per second.
20:04.25Woody14619yup... just hit tmo and power search for gstreamer and the dev of the front camera...
20:04.25fasta_likely
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20:06.26Woody14619K, am off to do real work. :)
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20:17.49DocScrutinizer05fasta_: get mirror
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20:20.13DocScrutinizer05fasta_: http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=mirror&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same
20:26.03fasta_I doubt that's anywhere near 640x480.
20:26.24fasta_More like 320x240 or something like that.
20:26.34RaimuIt's just a really shitty 640x480 afaik.
20:27.23fasta_It must come from the part stack then which first dropped off a cliff, then in the rain, through the mud, sent in space and then was packaged up by angry employees.
20:27.41RaimuI was under the impression that's where the SoC came as well.
20:28.18fasta_Still, that FM feature is kind of cool.
20:28.38RaimuSure. A lot of things're very cool about the n900.
20:29.01*** join/#maemo jhb (~joerg@e176087166.adsl.alicedsl.de)
20:29.12fasta_I also tested out Skype video chat.
20:29.25fasta_While it doesn't look as cool as on an iPhone, it does work.
20:30.01fasta_The voice signal is the most important anyway.
20:30.32fasta_What's 'appdownloader' exactly?
20:30.38*** join/#maemo kraft (kraft@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-eeudmhmkgvcrlwlt)
20:30.44fasta_Is it just a community frontend for HAM?
20:30.54fasta_Kind of like software center is in Ubuntu?
20:31.04RaimuI actually have no clue.
20:31.31RaimuMind you, frontend is exactly what HAM already is.
20:32.24RaimuI personally use the Fast Application Manager for HAM replacement, but a lot of dissenting voices on that one.
20:32.35RaimuApparently, it can mess things up in select situations.
20:37.49BCMMRaimu: HAM is not quite just a frontend. i am told that it's update feature works substantially differently from apt-get upgrade and that the latter must not be done
20:37.52BCMMannoyingly
20:39.28RaimuBCMM: I stand corrected!
20:40.38BCMMthis is a source of great annoyance to me. i have machines running three different distributions where apt-get install works properly, and i have to remember not to to apt-get upgrade on one of them
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20:49.14fasta_Why does the n900 think that I want to do a firmware upgrade when it is connected via usb?
20:49.44fasta_Can't it just try to read from it and if nothing comes that it expects assume it doesn't want to flash anything?
20:50.26RaimuI don't understand the question. Are you hooked up to a PC with the USB cable and the PC's running what?
20:54.04*** join/#maemo valeriusN (~valeriusN@xmpp.jrudevels.org)
20:54.19fasta_Raimu: yes, Linux.
20:54.24fasta_Raimu: it works perfectly.
20:54.32DocScrutinizer05(Can't it just try to read from it and if nothing comes that it expects assume it doesn't want to flash anything?) that's precisely what ROMBOOT and NOLO do
20:55.00fasta_DocScrutinizer05: so, I don't need to disconnect it every time?
20:55.12DocScrutinizer05every which time?
20:55.21fasta_DocScrutinizer05: every time I reboot the n900.
20:55.26DocScrutinizer05nah
20:55.43fasta_I also figured out how to shoot in .dng format.
20:55.47fasta_Likely that's raw.
20:55.58fasta_Then pictures seem to look good.
20:56.19fasta_I don't know how to do the same for the camera, though.
20:56.23fasta_I.e. video.
20:56.39DocScrutinizer05raw video? have fun with that ;-P
20:56.49RaimuSo how'd you make 'em .dng?
20:57.07fasta_Raimu: fcamera did that.
20:57.16RaimuAh, yes.
20:57.19fasta_Is there any way to show these on the n900 too?
20:57.32DocScrutinizer05hehe
20:57.55DocScrutinizer05maybe there's a dng-viewer app?
20:57.56RaimuI think there's some sorta "RAW viewer" in extras somewhere.
20:58.15RaimuHaven't tested.
21:00.08DocScrutinizer05tinks about it, but doesn't recall any raw video format even
21:00.21fasta_I don't really see the problem with the 10 seconds save time to sdcard.
21:00.22DocScrutinizer05except maybe VHS ;-P
21:00.43fasta_I mean: it's in internal memory already when the picture is taken.
21:00.53fasta_So, it can be displayed fast.
21:01.18fasta_That there is some background process writing it to non-volatile memory is irrelevant.
21:01.38DocScrutinizer05eh?
21:01.55fasta_That was someone's explanation for not having RAW by default.
21:02.06fasta_There is 32 GB of space.
21:02.08DocScrutinizer05nonsense
21:03.13DocScrutinizer05the only rationale for not having RAW is it's quite unusual and not appropriate for the camera quality
21:04.25*** join/#maemo kraft (kraft@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-syvprftxczkpupue)
21:05.32fasta_On the dng one I can count the pixels on the photographed screen.
21:06.20fasta_So, is there any way to get relatively uncompressed video output?
21:07.02RaimuI think there was a bunch of hacks on some files for that.
21:07.07RaimuCheck out tmo, I guess.
21:07.09DocScrutinizer05nope, bandwidth linitations I guess
21:07.26RaimuBut officially, no.
21:09.52DocScrutinizer05for 640*480 24bpp 25fps I get a bandwidth of ~23MB/s
21:10.38DocScrutinizer05hard to dump that *anywhere* on N900
21:10.53SpeedEvilOn the n900, the camera isn't really as many pixels as you think it is.
21:11.05SpeedEvilThe lens diameter means that it's about 2-2.5MP
21:11.22DocScrutinizer05SpeedEvil: 640*480, video
21:11.35SpeedEvil-> fasta_
21:12.02*** join/#maemo delphi (~ns-team@212.200.198.98)
21:12.20DocScrutinizer05not even talking about HD
21:12.22fasta_DocScrutinizer05: and how fast can it write to sd?
21:12.34fasta_DocScrutinizer05: or: how fast is the USB connection?
21:12.35DocScrutinizer0512MB if you're lucky
21:12.37SpeedEvilfasta_: 12.?Mb/s
21:12.54fasta_Mb or MB?
21:12.58SpeedEvilbytes
21:13.07DocScrutinizer05USB the jury is still out
21:13.09DocScrutinizer05on that
21:13.16SpeedEvilyou can actually write faster than this if you write to SD and EMMC at the same time
21:13.30SpeedEvilI got about 22M aggregate read
21:13.33fasta_Which USB is it?
21:13.35fasta_2.0?
21:13.37SpeedEvilI don't think I tried aggregate write
21:13.40SpeedEvilyes, 2
21:13.48fasta_That's 480Mbits/s
21:13.49DocScrutinizer05well, depends
21:13.56fasta_Max, at least.
21:14.27DocScrutinizer05and I'd bet N900 can't sustain 480Mb/s on USB highspeed
21:14.46fasta_I think if you would write to both usb and sdcard at the same time and to some wireless uplink, you should be able to sustain it.
21:15.02fasta_Or at least for a minute or so.
21:15.17fasta_Most videos on a phone are going to be action shots anyway.
21:15.28DocScrutinizer05what works for 5s will work for hours (or until storage full)
21:16.05SpeedEvilUSB-gadget camera would be awesome
21:16.08SpeedEvil- as an aside
21:16.09fasta_DocScrutinizer05: no, because it could be that internal memory is full after one minut.
21:16.11DocScrutinizer05but N900 is really missing the grunt to do that
21:16.25fasta_minute*
21:16.51DocScrutinizer05internal memory like what? like those sparse 256MB we got, that are already more than used up after boot?
21:18.18fasta_DocScrutinizer05: yes, those.
21:18.47fasta_DocScrutinizer05: it could serialize those first to the sd card.
21:19.01fasta_But that would mean it takes 15 seconds to start creating a video
21:20.20fasta_Is dng a particular type of RAW?
21:20.28DocScrutinizer05hmm, yep, I estimate an app could actually allocate ~100MB locked RAM
21:20.49DocScrutinizer05equals 4 seconds of vga raw video
21:21.05fasta_So, then all you need is some USB stick ducktaped to your phone.
21:21.15fasta_And fast USB transfer rates
21:21.41DocScrutinizer05hmmm
21:22.08DocScrutinizer05you're free to try that, but as mentioned above, jury is still out on max USB speed in hostmode
21:22.42DocScrutinizer05there are reports it's more like 4MB/s rather than 48
21:23.33*** join/#maemo kraft (kraft@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nlwwpqzzinesuywt)
21:23.45fasta_Wow, NOK is really decimated (literally)
21:23.51DocScrutinizer05honestly though what's wrong with Mpeg3
21:23.54DocScrutinizer05err 2
21:24.09fasta_DocScrutinizer05: well, it looks really, really bad.
21:24.19DocScrutinizer05o.O
21:24.26fasta_DocScrutinizer05: I just played it on my desktop.
21:24.49DocScrutinizer05it?
21:31.42Atariistill can't get this libcurl3 to update dammit
21:32.50fasta_DocScrutinizer05: a video recorded with standard camera configuration
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21:35.20DocScrutinizer05that's mp4, or worse
21:35.33DocScrutinizer05if you're referring to N900
21:36.20fasta_DocScrutinizer05: ok, so there is a way to set it to some more decent configuration?
21:36.33fasta_My usb networking stopped working again.
21:36.41fasta_(after a reboot of the PC)
21:37.55DocScrutinizer05fasta_: I guess there might be
21:38.29DocScrutinizer05though the DSP is limited on what it can do, compression-wise
21:39.03DocScrutinizer05.h263 baseband or whatever, iirc
21:39.30DocScrutinizer05you're probably free to implement a better compression algo on the DSP
21:39.54DocScrutinizer05better as in less loss less compression
21:40.11fasta_more*
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21:45.19DocScrutinizer05you won't squeeze more compression out of that DSP in realtime
21:45.36DocScrutinizer05you'd be incredibly rich if you do
21:45.52fasta_Oh?
21:46.20fasta_I am sure I could do something with real-time compression.
21:46.35DocScrutinizer05a better compression algo is a more complex algo, I think somebody could even prove that in theoretical math
21:47.13fasta_DocScrutinizer05: which makes sense.
21:47.27DocScrutinizer05and the .h263 drives DSP to the limit with baseband (excuse me if I'm using incorrect terms)
21:47.32fasta_If you don't know what a car is, you cannot say 'there is a car in that picture'.
21:48.09fasta_DocScrutinizer05: well, I don't know the terms perfectly, but I do know a few things about compression.
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21:48.52fasta_DocScrutinizer05: so, in this case, I can ping the PC, but I cannot get anywhere else :/
21:48.59DocScrutinizer05anyway, this DSP won't probably allow higher compression/loss ratio than you already get
21:49.44fasta_I was able to use it before to do anything.
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21:58.01fasta_Ok, I fixed it now.
22:00.01fasta_DocScrutinizer05: where can I read about the huge piles of money to be made by solving the dsp problem better (which should also contain an exact problem description)?
22:00.38fasta_I guess it's just part of the equation 'making prettier pictures to be shown with cheaper chips'.
22:00.45*** join/#maemo markinfo (~marek@ip-89-102-184-66.net.upcbroadband.cz)
22:00.51SpeedEvilIf you can do that better, then you basically can compress arbitrary video streams better
22:01.07SpeedEvil- for less perceptual loss per bit
22:01.17fasta_Real-time compression is a different problem from compression.
22:01.30fasta_Real-time compression using particular chips is again another problem.
22:01.31SpeedEvilIt's not.
22:01.37fasta_Yes, it is.
22:01.38SpeedEvilSame problem.
22:01.46SpeedEvilSlightly different constraints.
22:02.09fasta_By that I mean, that it's highly unlikely that the same two algorithms are applicable.
22:02.41fasta_I.e. the two optimal algorithms for both problems are likely different.
22:03.41fasta_I could go on and develop something which would work great for Youtube videos, but then would be useles for real-time compression of video shot by a user with a camera phone.
22:04.07SpeedEvilIt's just a matter of CPU resources.
22:04.46DocScrutinizer05no matter what, I of course implied realtime
22:04.48fasta_SpeedEvil: it could also be compressed on a GPU or via a custom chip.
22:05.00fasta_DocScrutinizer05: yes, you did and that was completely clear.
22:05.20fasta_How does it currently work? Is it all done via the CPU?
22:05.31fasta_That sounds rather ... unlikely.
22:05.42fasta_Well, it could with non-HD stuff.
22:06.07SpeedEvilThe DSP, and a couple of other functional units compress images and video
22:06.14SpeedEvilThe CPU is not directly involved.
22:06.29fasta_Oh, right, that's what doc said.
22:06.50fasta_Is there some set of standard DSPs which is like the 'industry leader'?
22:07.06SpeedEvilNo.
22:07.23fasta_So, then how can anyone optimize against anything?
22:07.32SpeedEvilThere are common ones, but not dominant.
22:07.34*** join/#maemo joga (AwsC04h2@rikki.fi)
22:07.45fasta_You would have to either know lots of devices or by sheer luck pick the right one.
22:07.58SpeedEvilThe manufacturer of the chip/SoC usually provideds codecs for a handfull of codecs.
22:08.01fasta_I suppose you could minimize gate evalutions or something like that.
22:08.14fasta_evaluations*
22:08.18SpeedEvilAnd if you're lucky will provide a way to develop your own.
22:08.51fasta_Ok, so basically if one would show something using a FPGA, you would get the interest from the industry.
22:08.58fasta_That is, something decent.
22:09.11fasta_Except one still would need to know how good the current solutions are.
22:09.22SpeedEvilNo.
22:09.23fasta_(because those then would not run on a FPGA)
22:09.28SpeedEvilWell - yes
22:09.31*** join/#maemo sirdancealot4 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz)
22:09.48fasta_If there is no way to compare things, there is no point in even trying.
22:10.02SpeedEvilIf you come up with a truly innovative algorithm that provides exccellent video quality in realtime on the FPGA, then people may look to putting that in HW
22:10.14SpeedEvilFPGA are usually too expensive for other than professional gear.
22:10.22SpeedEvilOf course there is a way to compare things.
22:10.27fasta_How?
22:10.44SpeedEvilYou look at the video quality you can obtain on commercial hardware with available codecs such as h.264
22:11.15SpeedEvilThe codecs are generally platform independant - custom compressions for hardware is rare except on the lowest end.
22:11.24fasta_Ok, right and video quality can be easily measured of course.
22:11.41fasta_Or well, that also kind of depends.
22:11.43SpeedEvilNo. That's a whole field on its own, but there are various ways to do it.
22:11.49SpeedEvilVarying from double blind on.
22:12.08fasta_I think you can only compare lossless compression for real world data.
22:12.14fasta_I mean: mathematically.
22:12.19SpeedEvilNo, you can't.
22:12.28fasta_Why not?
22:12.40SpeedEvilThere are a number of empirical formyklar that measure video quality.
22:13.05SpeedEvilThe simplest is measuring the difference between the input and the output frames, and summing the difference over all pixels.
22:13.19SpeedEvilThis is not a particularly great method, but it's useful.
22:13.34SpeedEvilThen you go to various methods attempting to model the psychovisual system.
22:13.47*** join/#maemo kraft (kraft@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-jshcbaopqwvpfhid)
22:13.54fasta_Right, I had thought of those two methods in 10 seconds or so.
22:14.04*** join/#maemo nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox)
22:14.05fasta_Do you have any specific names for those tests?
22:14.15SpeedEvilI suggest you google.
22:14.22fasta_Already did.
22:14.37fasta_Well, never mind.
22:14.40fasta_I can google again.
22:15.34SpeedEvilvideo perceptual quality tests bits
22:15.38SpeedEvilperhaps or something similar
22:21.19fasta_Basically there are two things on which you can win something: knowing lots about the human visual system and knowing something about your input distribution (e.g. it is unlikely that someone will send noise to youtube).
22:21.49fasta_(Or even record noise in the case that was discussed)
22:25.46*** join/#maemo sirdancealot2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz)
22:26.05DocScrutinizer05well, detecting noise as such and knowing the human perception can't distinguish one noise from another would already help much
22:27.35*** join/#maemo NGNUton-BC (~gnuton@84-231-19-73.elisa-mobile.fi)
22:28.56DocScrutinizer05if however you are doinjg a video of the eiffel tower with all those 10000 strob lights, each flashing with a constant frequency and unrelated to the next ones, you have a hard time to distinguish this from true noise algorithically, though humans would immediately notice the differnece
22:29.16*** join/#maemo eMHa__ (~mh@HSI-KBW-078-042-037-221.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
22:29.54*** join/#maemo Smily (Smily@89.142.212.113)
22:31.04DocScrutinizer05now add in camera moves to that
22:31.47*** join/#maemo Macer_ (mace@scientiam.org)
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22:34.51fasta_Does VLC also exist for n900?
22:34.57fasta_I know of kmplayer already.
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22:41.28fasta_A bit annoying that FM transmitter doesn't work with USB attached.
22:42.12*** join/#maemo doc|home (~doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007)
22:42.15*** join/#maemo schen (~schen@507080E4.static.ziggozakelijk.nl)
22:44.17DocScrutinizer05that's easily fixable
22:44.27DocScrutinizer05"there's an app for that" ;-)
22:44.40fasta_DocScrutinizer05: there is?
22:45.09DocScrutinizer05yep, by jacekowski iirc
22:45.53*** join/#maemo Facefox (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
22:45.55fasta_http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60567 ?
22:46.02DocScrutinizer05for vlc I'd point you at package interface once again
22:46.13fasta_Ok
22:46.54DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=vlc&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same
22:47.22fasta_Yeah, I already have those.
22:48.14fasta_It says 'network unavailable' btw
22:48.21fasta_While there is a network.
22:48.26fasta_(it being vlc-remote)
22:54.36fasta_DocScrutinizer05: is that xray application real?
22:54.49DocScrutinizer05nah
22:55.03fasta_Well, good elaborate hoax then.
22:55.04DocScrutinizer05the wallpaper?
22:55.09fasta_No
22:55.27fasta_It's something which claims to measure background radiation or whatever.
22:55.36DocScrutinizer05lol
22:56.47fasta_N900-X-Ray is its name.
22:56.57DocScrutinizer05maybe it's using back camera with door closed? ;-P
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22:57.17fasta_http://my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?fldAuto=2264&faq=35
22:57.43fasta_OK, so it's a scam.
22:57.56DocScrutinizer05bullshit
22:58.30fasta_The N900 fart app.
22:59.19Hurrianfasta_, VLC for N900 is very "alpha" quality
23:00.18*** join/#maemo teotwaki_ (~slau@Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie)
23:02.39DocScrutinizer05fasta_: btw: some indispensible stuff: simple brightness, load widget, apmefo
23:05.24DocScrutinizer05starhash-enabler, flashlight(?), backupmenu
23:06.41fasta_DocScrutinizer05: maemo5-load-applet or Load Applet?
23:07.02DocScrutinizer05err simple cpu load applet or sth
23:07.40SpeedEvilindeed - load widget is indespensable and something I miss greatly on my android tablet
23:08.38fasta_It really take years for HAM to load all applications.
23:08.41DocScrutinizer05you never want to wonder if you missed to hit that ok button or it's already woking at full CPU load and you just need to wait for it to complete
23:09.08DocScrutinizer05fasta_: disable extras-devel!
23:09.22DocScrutinizer05it's like 1 min vs 5 min
23:09.40fasta_DocScrutinizer05: but doesn't extras-devel also have interesting stuff?
23:09.47DocScrutinizer05sure
23:10.08DocScrutinizer05but then you have to live with the waiting, or use other emans ;-D
23:10.15DocScrutinizer05means, even
23:10.25fasta_What other means? apt-get?
23:10.32DocScrutinizer05for example
23:10.48fasta_But you said apt-get would sent me to Hell.
23:10.55DocScrutinizer05for most pkgs it's flawless
23:10.59fasta_(I am not religious)
23:11.14DocScrutinizer05no, apt-get dist-upgrade for sure will
23:11.49DocScrutinizer05apt-get install is usually safe, except for some very special pkgs
23:12.17DocScrutinizer05nevertheless change your repos in HAM only
23:13.29DocScrutinizer05and don't worry when apt refuses to work even minutes after HAM got closed. There's some apt-worker process cleaning up, this takes time
23:14.08*** join/#maemo kraft (kraft@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bvwhxwyjbgydjecw)
23:14.45DocScrutinizer05apt-cache search is a great tool
23:16.36DocScrutinizer05and don't forget to create BM-backups frequently. Especially when/before installing stuff from extras-devel
23:22.23HurrianDocScrutinizer, don't forget putting in an extremely long update interval for HAM
23:22.47Hurrianapt-worker randomly kicking CPU into max frequency is not cool
23:23.48DocScrutinizer05hmm, depends
23:24.00DocScrutinizer05I haven't changed it on my device
23:24.04MacerTHE BETA TEST IS OVER!
23:24.32DocScrutinizer05probably because I think it's not running updates via GPRS, and at home on WLAN I don't care
23:24.55DocScrutinizer05Macer: eh?
23:25.07SpeedEvilMacer: The n930 is out?
23:25.38Macerheh
23:25.44DocScrutinizer05Macer: your capslock key is defect
23:26.03Macersorry. i was making fun of my buggy lumia 900
23:26.11SpeedEvilah
23:26.17Macerwith its wifi/cell dns scripting fail
23:26.54HurrianDocScrutinizer05, I don't leave wifi on all the time, so when I use my N900 HAM will get itself to update
23:27.04Hurrianso I set the interval to something ridiculous
23:27.19DocScrutinizer05sure
23:29.42DocScrutinizer05anyway, it's on http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo
23:32.01*** join/#maemo radic (~radic@dslb-178-002-225-144.pools.arcor-ip.net)
23:34.46*** join/#maemo PeterWolf (~peter@114-44-220-21.dynamic.hinet.net)
23:39.12*** join/#maemo GAN900 (~ryan@li180-106.members.linode.com)
23:48.09*** join/#maemo robink_ (~quassel@fatcat.creosotehill.org)
23:52.04*** join/#maemo trx (~ns-team@212.200.198.98)

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