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| 01:20.21 | Markion | Hello guys |
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| 01:30.51 | Markion | Hello |
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| 01:48.58 | Markion | Anyone willing to chat?? |
| 01:52.29 | merlin1991 | I guess most are sleeping |
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| 01:52.53 | Markion | True |
| 01:53.11 | Markion | But i see people joining |
| 01:53.47 | Markion | And i would like to test to chat on irc from the mobile for once |
| 01:55.59 | merlin1991 | which client are you using? |
| 01:56.23 | merlin1991 | and most of the joins are people who timed out earlier, so not eaxactly actively joining :D |
| 01:56.41 | Markion | I see |
| 01:57.11 | Markion | The client is wireless irc on symbian, my n900 is here chargin though |
| 01:57.27 | Markion | Is there a good irc client on maemo? |
| 01:59.35 | Markion | Do u know any channel where people are active even during the night? |
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| 02:05.40 | merlin1991 | #raspberrypi hst people talking pretty much 24/7 |
| 02:05.52 | merlin1991 | on maemo I use quassel |
| 02:06.09 | Markion | Never heard about |
| 02:06.22 | Markion | Do i find it in the repos? |
| 02:06.35 | merlin1991 | it's on one of the silly nokia ovi pages |
| 02:06.44 | Markion | Ah ok |
| 02:06.48 | Markion | Ovi store |
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| 02:07.00 | Markion | Is it working properly? |
| 02:07.06 | merlin1991 | it's a distributed client (you run a core on some server and connect from you desktop / n900 / ...) |
| 02:07.08 | merlin1991 | yeah it is |
| 02:07.27 | Markion | Sounds complex |
| 02:07.30 | merlin1991 | quassel for the n900 is actually called quassel2go |
| 02:07.52 | Markion | You need a pc running so |
| 02:09.01 | Markion | Hey christian do you have a mobile with hw keyboard to suggest other than n900??? |
| 02:13.12 | merlin1991 | n950 ;) |
| 02:13.23 | merlin1991 | ooops too late :D |
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| 05:29.32 | DocScrutinizer | moos evilly |
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| 08:34.30 | niloy | I am doing "./configure", but I am getting "permission denied", someone please help |
| 08:35.18 | burro | chmod a+x configure |
| 08:35.25 | burro | or , look for a file called autogen.sh or so |
| 08:35.29 | burro | and run that instead |
| 08:35.39 | burro | or.. type aclocal && autoheader && automake -a && autoconf && ./configure |
| 08:35.41 | burro | or something |
| 08:35.51 | niloy | burro, are you aware of nodejs? |
| 08:35.56 | burro | yes |
| 08:36.06 | niloy | is it avaliable for maemo? |
| 08:36.08 | burro | my web framewoork originally worked on ry dahl's ruby webservers before he switched to javascript |
| 08:36.11 | burro | no idea |
| 08:36.36 | niloy | I am trying to build nodejs on n900 |
| 08:36.38 | burro | i think it compiles itself or something |
| 08:36.40 | niloy | but not able to :( |
| 08:36.48 | burro | does it even run on ARM? |
| 08:37.02 | niloy | it should... why wont it? |
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| 08:37.16 | burro | beacuse its a fork of an old version of v8 from google or somethihng |
| 08:37.21 | burro | and tweaked ot hell and back |
| 08:37.35 | burro | i donno exactly how it all builds, if you pastebin the error maybe i can try to help |
| 08:37.56 | burro | also, just try a debian binary package |
| 08:38.07 | niloy | how will debian binary run on n900? |
| 08:38.12 | niloy | will it? |
| 08:38.18 | burro | usually |
| 08:38.32 | burro | im using debian binaries for screen, ntpdate, and other stuff |
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| 08:38.47 | burro | im actually even using debian's libc beacuse debian's binaries needed newer version |
| 08:39.06 | niloy | you mean, you can compile stuff on ubuntu and directly paste the binary on n900 and it will work? |
| 08:39.15 | burro | armel. not sure if armhf runs on n900 |
| 08:39.17 | burro | yes |
| 08:39.28 | niloy | O.o thats cool |
| 08:39.57 | niloy | great, then I can just copy paste the nodejs binary from ubuntu |
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| 09:29.17 | edheldil | timeless: regarding the OTP card for banking, some bank here allows you to either use special pin-protected calculator, encrypted sms (which do not work on n900, thanks, Nokia), normal sms or cert |
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| 10:16.49 | jacekowski | edheldil: some calculators use smartcard to calculate response |
| 10:17.08 | jacekowski | edheldil: and some banks just let you do whatever you want |
| 10:17.16 | jacekowski | without any OTP and other stuff like that |
| 10:18.07 | edheldil | well, that sucks :) |
| 10:18.19 | jacekowski | not really |
| 10:18.35 | jacekowski | they don't bother pretending that you are secure |
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| 10:19.28 | jacekowski | only thing they do is when you add another recipent you get a phone call from them |
| 10:19.57 | jacekowski | on registered phone number ( and those numbers can only be changed by physically going to a branch ) |
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| 10:20.29 | edheldil | better than nothing |
| 10:20.37 | jacekowski | well, thing is |
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| 10:20.48 | jacekowski | all attacker can do is see that you have fuck all on your account |
| 10:21.08 | jacekowski | and transfer something to already added recipent |
| 10:21.30 | jacekowski | not really a lot |
| 10:22.06 | jacekowski | and you don't have to carry calculator/OTP cards with you all the time if you want to use your bank |
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| 10:32.00 | edheldil | jacekowski: unless he steals your phone |
| 10:32.10 | edheldil | or hijacks GSM |
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| 10:32.56 | edheldil | basically your phone is a token |
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| 10:33.50 | flux | edheldil, well, it's already a lot better situation anyway |
| 10:33.56 | flux | edheldil, you will notice if you don't have your phone with you |
| 10:35.50 | edheldil | not in the gsm hacking case, but let's assume that risk is not that significant *yet*. |
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| 10:37.16 | jacekowski | if he steals my phone he still needs my bank login and password |
| 10:37.28 | flux | in any case such an attach would be much more targeted than random trojans from the email |
| 10:37.29 | jacekowski | unless he's targetting me and he already has it |
| 10:37.46 | jacekowski | but in that case he may just as well steal OTP card |
| 10:38.02 | flux | or, maybe he could just go and force you to do the transfer at gun point? |
| 10:38.16 | jacekowski | well, he couldn't |
| 10:38.34 | jacekowski | i've got £600 on my account |
| 10:38.37 | edheldil | I *think*, that OTP cards are usually complemented with a secret pin you have to add to the codes |
| 10:38.42 | jacekowski | £200 is going for road tax |
| 10:38.53 | jacekowski | and i've got £400 left for food untill end of the month |
| 10:38.58 | flux | jacekowski, quite a mighty protection you have there! |
| 10:38.59 | edheldil | flux: rubberhose cryptography? :) |
| 10:39.36 | edheldil | cryptoanalysis |
| 10:40.16 | flux | my bank just started asking an (semi)OTP not only for login but also for each transaction I make |
| 10:40.19 | flux | bloody annoying.. |
| 10:40.32 | flux | semi-OTP because they may reuse the numbers for transactions, but not for logins |
| 10:43.20 | edheldil | flux: I liked the way here with STK - to login, you have to enter loginname and otp code, which you get to your registered phone via encrypted sms. To make any transaction, you have to again enter the otp code, which you again get via encrypted sms, with a summary of the transaction (sum, target account, id numbers) |
| 10:44.02 | Corsac | encrypted sms? |
| 10:44.16 | edheldil | via SIM toolkit |
| 10:44.34 | flux | edheldil, are you able to accept transactions in bulk? |
| 10:44.36 | edheldil | i.e. you have a banking application on your SIM card |
| 10:45.35 | edheldil | flux: nope, but since I do max 3 in a row, it's sufferable |
| 10:46.19 | edheldil | Unfortunately, damned Nokia did not create STK for n900, so here the scheme, breaks apart :( |
| 10:46.28 | edheldil | sorry |
| 10:46.43 | x29a | how would i go about fixing the dependencies of libnl-dev in the maemo reps? |
| 10:47.07 | x29a | apt-get tells me: libnl-dev: Depends: libnl1 (= 1.1-2) but 1.1-2nokia1 is to be installed |
| 10:47.45 | edheldil | apt-get install ... --ignore-depends=libnl1 |
| 10:48.02 | edheldil | whether it's advisable is another matter |
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| 10:49.56 | x29a | ah, thats a flag for dpkg it seems, ill check into it, thanks! |
| 10:50.34 | edheldil | or try to install libnl1 first with apt-get install libnl1=1.1-2 |
| 10:51.43 | edheldil | although there's probably some package conflict which prevents this , else apt-get would maybe pick it up already, |
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| 11:57.29 | RST38h | http://realnorth.net/blog/ |
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| 12:29.42 | ruskie | hmm 500 eur for a brand new n900... |
| 12:30.40 | peb | ruskie, and for a refurbished one / with garantie left: appr. 190 Euro |
| 12:31.27 | ruskie | peb, and for a new still in box with 2 year warranty that someone is resseling 210 eur ;) |
| 12:32.56 | peb | So, I see you know the (used/refurbished) prices. 500âeuro ... is it a gold edition? |
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| 12:37.44 | ruskie | peb, naahh just brand new ;) in a store ;) |
| 12:37.52 | ruskie | peb, and no not talking used/refurb |
| 12:37.58 | Sicelo | maybe the new 900 ;) |
| 12:38.07 | ruskie | they 200 price point is for new that someone took on contract and just wants to sell on |
| 12:38.38 | ruskie | I'll definately gonna try and grab one next month |
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| 12:39.04 | ruskie | though luckily *knock on wood* mine still functions perfectly |
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| 13:09.35 | Macer | ruskie: 210EU for an n900? |
| 13:09.36 | Macer | nice |
| 13:09.52 | ruskie | new with 2 year warranty |
| 13:09.53 | Macer | i was lucky to get mine off ebay for $250. new they were going for like 400-500+ |
| 13:09.53 | ruskie | :) |
| 13:10.04 | Macer | i mean new from like.. amazo |
| 13:10.12 | Macer | skype sells them as well |
| 13:10.15 | Macer | (believe it or not) |
| 13:10.22 | Macer | or at least they did when i was looking for one |
| 13:10.23 | ruskie | ahhh yeah new from vendor tends to cost |
| 13:10.36 | ruskie | but new as in I got this contract phone but want to sell it on still in box never even touched |
| 13:10.36 | Macer | well. they are kind of in short supply |
| 13:10.44 | Macer | i don't even use my usb port. i got a charger and 3 batteries :-P |
| 13:10.49 | ruskie | hehe |
| 13:10.55 | Macer | because my first one had the usb issue .. where it.. came off lol |
| 13:11.05 | ruskie | hopefully I'll be able to get a n900 next month |
| 13:11.17 | ruskie | contacted the seller and she said she'll contact me if she sells it before then |
| 13:11.18 | Macer | i only connect the usb if i need to move stuff to or from the phone fast or if i have to flash it |
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| 13:11.34 | Macer | well.. n900 is a special device |
| 13:11.49 | Macer | not too many understand it and the ones who do know how awesome it is |
| 13:12.07 | Macer | even if hildon is dated and ugly in comparison to newer UIs |
| 13:13.09 | peb | I love my n900 .. and just got a couple of backup devices :-) |
| 13:14.33 | Macer | i think i am still going to get an e7 |
| 13:14.36 | Macer | as a backup phone |
| 13:14.52 | Macer | once they drop to 300 :) |
| 13:15.10 | Macer | i'm not paying 400 for a phone nokia will probably drop soon. unless it's an n900 |
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| 13:16.42 | ruskie | I only really probbaly need a second spare |
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| 13:42.09 | peb | Probably a stupid question. I have 3 N900 and want all of them to be on the same software-stage. How do I do that the easiest? On a normal Linux Laptop I'd dd the harddisk and push that on all of the devices. Same on the N900? But how do I boot from (USB-)Stick? |
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| 13:43.58 | ruskie | peb, you would need to create a flash image for them all |
| 13:44.01 | ruskie | it can be done |
| 13:44.35 | ruskie | I don't have a link handy but there is a meego blog post somewhere that explains how to do it |
| 13:45.22 | peb | ruskie, thanks -- I'll search that. Now at least I know where/what to look for. I'm pissed at the backup devices behaving slightly different ... |
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| 14:08.09 | Sicelo | i wonder if BackupMenu wouldn't achieve that as well (as long u flash same kernel version on all 3) |
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| 14:24.27 | dafox | Hi all. I see you are discussing backups, and I too was wondering what is currently regarded as the best way to create a full backup of my N900 (ie. programs, user files, etc)? |
| 14:24.58 | Sicelo | BackupMenu... unless u are a guru who can do your own thing |
| 14:25.16 | Sicelo | also, see the end of this page ... |
| 14:25.21 | Sicelo | ~jrtools |
| 14:25.21 | infobot | i guess jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
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| 14:28.05 | dafox | "things for cssu" and further down? |
| 14:28.42 | Sicelo | where there's an rsync script .. at the end |
| 14:29.01 | Sicelo | full backup is definitely BackupMenu though |
| 14:29.14 | dafox | I was more looking for something to backup the linux installation |
| 14:29.48 | dafox | one thing that scared me a bit about backupmenu was that it looks like it does something to the bootloader? |
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| 15:32.22 | mece | hello |
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| 16:03.00 | pronto | ping pronto |
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| 16:11.36 | fosstux | I'm trying to find an easy solutiion to edit my calendar on the n900. |
| 16:11.43 | fosstux | Any ideas? |
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| 16:24.57 | andre__ | fosstux, not without elaborating |
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| 16:25.17 | andre__ | the default calendar application? ;-) |
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| 17:07.47 | zanberdo | I have an n900 and I recently picked up a sd card. what filesystem should it be formatted with? |
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| 17:11.00 | SpeedEvil | vfat |
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| 17:20.58 | zanberdo | SpeedEvil, I thought as much. thanks |
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| 17:36.32 | clad | Hello ! |
| 17:37.03 | clad | I think my n900 is bricked and I don't really know what went wrong, haven't done anything special with it before it happened |
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| 17:37.49 | clad | When pluging it, it just start after a few seconds of solid orange light, shows the nokia logo, then a few terminal lines I can't read due to no backlight |
| 17:38.04 | clad | After a few more seconds, it shuts off and the whole process start again in loop |
| 17:38.13 | dm8tbr | could be a dead battery? |
| 17:38.31 | redeeman | wifi/bluetooth is broken on my n900 :/ |
| 17:39.13 | clad | Can a battery suddenly die without any warnings ? |
| 17:39.19 | redeeman | yes |
| 17:39.32 | clad | Oh, I hope it's that then, I love my n900 ! |
| 17:40.25 | clad | Is that "BL 5J" battery common ? Which other popular cellphone use it ? |
| 17:41.23 | clad | Is it nokia-specific ? |
| 17:42.49 | fledermaus | looks like it, but they seem easy enough to get hold of |
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| 17:53.55 | Sicelo | nokia-specific, yes. an number of other nokias use it. look at it's detail page at nokia.com |
| 17:54.07 | kerio | clad: the nokia 5800 uses it |
| 17:54.16 | kerio | the touchy one |
| 17:55.46 | clad | Damn, I tore appart a few other nokia I have around, none of them have similar pineout. Batteries have the same voltage but are "+ ground -" and the n900 is "+ - ground" |
| 17:56.51 | clad | What's the point of switching those around like that ? |
| 17:57.54 | clad | Anyhow, since my n900 may need replacing, any other cellphone available at the moment running maemo or similar debian based distro ? |
| 17:59.08 | wmarone | sadly no |
| 17:59.19 | wmarone | well |
| 17:59.28 | wmarone | you can go for the N9, which does |
| 17:59.35 | wmarone | no keyboard/sdcard though |
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| 17:59.56 | clad | No keyboard means no point to me |
| 18:00.17 | clad | I try and treat my n900 well then |
| 18:00.24 | wmarone | yup |
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| 18:01.00 | clad | There is nothing wrong about it anyway, except that it seems to lack reliability |
| 18:01.32 | clad | Most people I know having one now have one or more feature gone. Sometime USB, something wifi, sometime the jack... |
| 18:03.46 | kerio | clad: you might find a n950 on ebay |
| 18:03.49 | kerio | but it'll cost you a shitton |
| 18:04.09 | clad | What's a n950 ? |
| 18:04.19 | kerio | it's the dev/prerelease version of the n9 |
| 18:04.26 | kerio | it has a physical kbd |
| 18:04.36 | Sicelo | O.0 |
| 18:04.52 | Sicelo | available on ebay? genuine? |
| 18:05.00 | kerio | i said "might" |
| 18:05.13 | clad | Ebay is banned on my country sadly |
| 18:05.20 | Sicelo | ok |
| 18:05.44 | kerio | lol china |
| 18:06.13 | kerio | anyway, sadly if you want some actual linux on your phone and not that android crap, your best bet is just to buy another n900, or repair the one you have ._. |
| 18:06.33 | kerio | i'll probably buy the milestone 4 once it's available in europe :( |
| 18:06.58 | clad | Not China ! Not yet anyway, we'll probably be invaded in the coming month |
| 18:07.30 | kerio | ooh, taiwan |
| 18:08.07 | kerio | technically it's still china |
| 18:08.25 | clad | Depends which party is in power actually, it's complicated... |
| 18:08.35 | kerio | in fact, it's probably more china than the PRC |
| 18:08.47 | clad | When the KMT is ruling yes |
| 18:09.02 | kerio | anyway, i didn't know you had filtered internet too |
| 18:09.19 | clad | It's more like Ebay don't dare to do business here |
| 18:09.23 | kerio | oh, i see |
| 18:09.43 | kerio | well, even if they did, i doubt you'd find a n950 on the taiwanese ebay |
| 18:09.49 | kerio | you'd still have to buy it from the US one |
| 18:09.53 | clad | We don't really have formal ban on anything, but many don't dare to trade with us by fear of being banned from china |
| 18:10.05 | kerio | but really, it's probably impossible to find a n950 anyway |
| 18:12.46 | clad | Well, so no other cellphone is sight running any gnu-flavored linux then ? |
| 18:13.01 | kerio | if android can be called linux... |
| 18:13.06 | clad | That's weird, there is definitly a market for it |
| 18:13.15 | kerio | nah, it's smaller than you'd think |
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| 18:14.22 | clad | Well, the day android can understand the repo of any big name linux distro, I'd call it linux, open source or not, but as of now it's not really more a linux than macos is a bsd |
| 18:14.54 | clad | There was that openmoko project, but I don't think it ever resulted in anything solid did it ? |
| 18:15.02 | kerio | well, it did |
| 18:15.10 | wmarone | it had mediocre hardware |
| 18:15.12 | kerio | but even the freerunner is old |
| 18:15.19 | wmarone | the GTA04 is "out" |
| 18:15.31 | wmarone | though you need a complete freerunner to make use of it |
| 18:16.17 | clad | And nothing in sight or rumored either ? |
| 18:17.34 | wmarone | maybe something from samsung running tizen, but nothing has been announced |
| 18:17.45 | clad | Didn't the KDE guys said they were targeting cellphone UI ? Don't they have any plan to get a hardware that could make use of it ? Or Ubuntu maybe ? I heard they are releasing a connected TV soon |
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| 18:19.19 | Estel_ | ~seen SD69 |
| 18:19.37 | infobot | sd69 <i=ae64f3fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-loacvlzuidxxzxuj> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 785d 16h 30m 2s ago, saying: 'javispedro: ping'. |
| 18:19.37 | clad | Tizen is really something solid ? I thought it was only a way to quietly kill meego. |
| 18:19.38 | wmarone | it's about as solid as meego was |
| 18:19.45 | Estel_ | Tizen is sh|tty java+html browser acting as OS |
| 18:19.51 | wmarone | meego was dead the moment Nokia swung towards WP7 |
| 18:20.11 | wmarone | Estel_: except for the gnu userspace and native gui libraries that are part o fit |
| 18:20.43 | Estel_ | with 'promise' of supporting other frameworks fully |
| 18:20.52 | Estel_ | come on, we've been through this already |
| 18:20.55 | wmarone | if someone steps up and supports it, yes |
| 18:21.12 | Estel_ | why to care about Tizen powered by Nokia ADHD (TM) |
| 18:21.17 | Estel_ | if You have Mer? |
| 18:21.28 | clad | My boss got a WP7 HTC phone. I can't believe people would actually put that much money into something so useless. How can nokia's decision make business sense ? |
| 18:21.30 | wmarone | I like mer yes |
| 18:21.40 | wmarone | I don't see a hardware vendor adopting Mer directly |
| 18:21.50 | wmarone | I do see Mer pulling in Tizen stuff |
| 18:21.52 | Estel_ | same here unfortunatelly |
| 18:24.52 | Estel_ | I think great step for it would be designing community device, like open pandora or raspberry pi |
| 18:25.11 | Estel_ | freerunner did it also, but they're lacking good software adaptation |
| 18:25.21 | Estel_ | mer got software, but lack decent hardware |
| 18:25.41 | Estel_ | Tizen must fail miserably, its unavoidable |
| 18:25.52 | Estel_ | CordiaHD won't ever get to usable state |
| 18:25.59 | clad | Sure, but who gonna have the balls to do it ? |
| 18:26.07 | Estel_ | we the people :P |
| 18:26.09 | wmarone | freerunner also had meager hardware. 2G was bad even then. |
| 18:26.10 | Estel_ | seriously though |
| 18:26.22 | clad | Maybe the open pandora guys could, but they are not faring too well with their own device so far |
| 18:26.42 | clad | High demand, but can't produce enough, as none of their partner take them seriously |
| 18:26.43 | wmarone | Estel_: why -must- i fail? |
| 18:26.45 | wmarone | it* |
| 18:26.50 | Estel_ | I think that Maemo community could, after cutting ties with Nokia |
| 18:27.11 | Estel_ | because it's in even worse position that Meego was when it started |
| 18:27.17 | wmarone | it is? |
| 18:27.23 | Estel_ | lets say, historical experience |
| 18:27.43 | Estel_ | of course, after cutting ties with Nokia, Maemo community would not be named Maemo |
| 18:27.49 | SpeedEvil | wishes he had a spare billion or so. |
| 18:27.54 | Estel_ | hahaha |
| 18:27.57 | Estel_ | same here |
| 18:27.59 | SpeedEvil | A nice slackware phone. |
| 18:28.02 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 18:28.24 | Estel_ | yet, designing devices don't exactly must be so expensive as history tells ;) |
| 18:28.33 | Estel_ | look @ CSSU testing thread |
| 18:28.48 | SpeedEvil | umm - what? |
| 18:28.48 | clad | Slackware phone ? I'd buy on day 1. |
| 18:28.57 | Estel_ | unrest @ X-fade irresponsibility and overall situation is growing stronger |
| 18:29.12 | SpeedEvil | What's that got to do with designeing devices? |
| 18:29.15 | wmarone | Estel_: the cssu doesn't really tell us anything about device design... |
| 18:29.26 | Estel_ | unrest @ X-fade irresponsibility and overall situation is growing stronger |
| 18:29.35 | Estel_ | I swapped to talking \out cutting ties with Nokia |
| 18:29.37 | SpeedEvil | Though in many ways, I would agree that the hardware is the easy part. |
| 18:29.51 | Estel_ | sorry, It seems that i swapped to fast :P |
| 18:29.58 | SpeedEvil | All you need is several million dollars, and a skilled smallish design team |
| 18:30.13 | kerio | let's ask notch! |
| 18:30.14 | Estel_ | hey, Pi hadn't several millions |
| 18:30.15 | SpeedEvil | For software, the problem is harder. |
| 18:30.23 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Pi is cheating. |
| 18:30.27 | SpeedEvil | Pi is also _lots_ easier. |
| 18:30.28 | kerio | Estel_: Pi still hasn't delivered, and it's... small |
| 18:30.34 | Estel_ | I doesn't have anything against cheating |
| 18:30.37 | clad | Why SpeedEvil ? The linux distro are here already in the open |
| 18:30.53 | clad | And so are cellphone UI's, KDE, ubuntu own stuffs... |
| 18:30.54 | SpeedEvil | Pi is cheating, as the primary architect of the design is at board level in broadcom. |
| 18:30.55 | kerio | sheevaplug/guruplug/dreamplug went through multiple iterations and was backed by a relatively big company |
| 18:31.13 | SpeedEvil | Hence getting docs and samples and stuff from broadcom is trivial. |
| 18:31.27 | clad | Most of the good apps on the n900 are community made anyway |
| 18:31.40 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, for version 1 we can cheat as hell |
| 18:31.49 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: You can't. |
| 18:31.50 | clad | (Who ever used the novi store or the built in apps ? Even the included package manager sucked) |
| 18:31.55 | DocScrutinizer | uhuh |
| 18:32.01 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: You can only do that if you can find someone with a similar 'in'. |
| 18:32.10 | Estel_ | We won't sell more than few thousand at most 'geek devices' |
| 18:32.16 | Estel_ | without being tied with big company |
| 18:32.26 | Estel_ | which is ok for me |
| 18:32.36 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Most makers simply will not be interested in that sort of volume. So you're limited to what you can buy off the shelf. |
| 18:32.52 | clad | Why so Estel_ ? All those new gen amiga had been selling very well over the past decade without being backed by anyone big |
| 18:32.56 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Which basically means your choice of hardware is _extremely_ limited, and adds 20% or so to your cost. |
| 18:32.58 | Estel_ | what about parts from shelf (SoCetc) |
| 18:32.59 | DocScrutinizer | obviously Estel_ never bult hw |
| 18:33.05 | wmarone | which is why all the little niche devices are OMAP3 based now |
| 18:33.30 | kerio | clad: something i was thinking about is dumb-ish phone in one pocket, openpandora in other pocket |
| 18:33.32 | *** join/#maemo Estel_ (~Estel@d35-11.icpnet.pl) |
| 18:33.46 | kerio | share the connection via bt when there's no wifi, use a bluetooth headset for calls on the phone and audio on the pandora |
| 18:33.52 | *** join/#maemo Estel_ (~Estel@d35-11.icpnet.pl) |
| 18:34.11 | Estel_ | And purchasing assembled PCB from china? ;) |
| 18:34.17 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: PCBs are easy. |
| 18:34.21 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Though expensive. |
| 18:34.25 | kerio | buy them from taiwan, just need to ask clad! :D |
| 18:34.33 | Estel_ | whatever |
| 18:34.35 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 18:34.41 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: Boards cost ~10-20* what tehy do in serious volume in thousands. |
| 18:34.42 | clad | kerio: how complicated would it be for an hypothetical openpandora v2 to just include a 3g chip ? |
| 18:34.55 | SpeedEvil | clad: Easy - if you can source the 3g chip. |
| 18:34.57 | kerio | clad: apparently DocScrutinizer asked them, they don't care about having a phone part :( |
| 18:35.09 | kerio | SpeedEvil: of course he can, he's in taiwan! >:D |
| 18:35.12 | Estel_ | first things first |
| 18:35.16 | SpeedEvil | clad: you can't - nobody at all will sell you a chipset, only modules, which bump up the size of your device. |
| 18:35.18 | Estel_ | we wont achieve anything |
| 18:35.40 | Estel_ | if we just die due to developers irritations on repos left without repmaster |
| 18:35.49 | clad | And yes I know who to contact to get small volume (500 to 10 000) of good quality chips. Not sure about the availability of 3g chips though, but probably possible as well |
| 18:35.58 | kerio | haha what |
| 18:36.00 | kerio | really? :O |
| 18:36.10 | Estel_ | as X-Fade is apparently only taking *our* money that Nokia pay for serfvicing *our* repos |
| 18:36.17 | SpeedEvil | clad: 'good quality' ? |
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| 18:36.35 | clad | By which I mean, not so obsolete |
| 18:36.41 | SpeedEvil | clad: The other problem is the chips are half the battle - the documentation and code is the other half. |
| 18:36.43 | kerio | SpeedEvil: if you put quotes around it, it sounds worse :( |
| 18:36.44 | Estel_ | without doing a aingle f***ing thing other than checking every 6 months if he was mailed |
| 18:37.36 | Estel_ | thats why I was talking about CCSU thread |
| 18:37.41 | clad | I am not really a technical guy, but I know exactly who to contact for those. And he has quite a good enlish. |
| 18:38.02 | Estel_ | most respected devs are f***ed up by fact gthat is impossible to get services that are payd for in advance |
| 18:38.15 | SpeedEvil | For mobile phone chipsets, the makers only sell direct, to large companies. |
| 18:38.16 | wmarone | you sound angry |
| 18:38.33 | Estel_ | I feel that we'rw on stage "either turn to self governed foundation or die" |
| 18:38.46 | *** join/#maemo markinfo (~marek@dhcp11.dmg.tuwien.ac.at) |
| 18:38.46 | Estel_ | check CSSU thread. |
| 18:38.57 | Estel_ | bug with KP and repos is known for 7 months |
| 18:38.57 | RST38h | moos |
| 18:39.03 | Estel_ | now, CSSU cant release testing |
| 18:39.19 | Estel_ | due to one person getting out without warning |
| 18:39.31 | Estel_ | and X-Fade, aka repo maintainer |
| 18:39.43 | Estel_ | lying that package can't get more than one maintainer, LOL |
| 18:39.46 | DocScrutinizer | listen, there's Nikolaus of goldelico who actually DID BUILD a free device with 3G, based on OMAP3. So what's happening now? Nobody orders them, rather *you* rant about "unbearable old hardware, only omap3", and "waaaay too expensive" though that's ~what Nikauls has to pay for the boards, without any ROI for his investment into hw and R&D |
| 18:40.14 | SpeedEvil | That's the scary part. |
| 18:40.25 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, how much does it cost? |
| 18:40.27 | SpeedEvil | For small volume vendors, delays are almost inevitable. |
| 18:40.34 | SpeedEvil | And costs are high. |
| 18:40.48 | clad | All this is idle talk, just contact that guy : http://www.facebook.com/people/Cedric-Jaeg/100001834473308 |
| 18:40.54 | SpeedEvil | Leading to only a very tiny core subset of possible interested parties purchasing. |
| 18:40.58 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: obviously you got internet - so how about finding out by yourself? |
| 18:41.03 | clad | He'll tell you what is available in TW for small quantity |
| 18:41.30 | DocScrutinizer | pfff |
| 18:41.32 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I can, but I' currently searching for legal ways of transfering Maemo to legal foundation under other name |
| 18:41.33 | SpeedEvil | What is available is completely seperate from what is available with docs. |
| 18:41.41 | Estel_ | so I though it would be faster to ask You |
| 18:41.47 | Estel_ | as You seems to know already |
| 18:42.03 | Estel_ | Ok ok, first things first gentleman |
| 18:42.08 | Estel_ | I dont know if You would agree |
| 18:42.26 | DocScrutinizer | no, I strongly disagree |
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| 18:42.36 | RST38h | "Elop: Lumia 800 hitting Microsoft retail stores in February" |
| 18:42.39 | Estel_ | but IMO, maemo.org transferred to self governed foundation (after fundraising etc), with stable infrastructure |
| 18:42.46 | RST38h | OMG! Miracle! Miracle!!! |
| 18:42.51 | Estel_ | would have much more momentum to design free device @ lower cost |
| 18:42.53 | DocScrutinizer | ranting and when it comes to deeds instead of words you can't even be bothered to visit the web page |
| 18:42.55 | DocScrutinizer | :-( |
| 18:42.56 | Estel_ | that single random guy |
| 18:43.20 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, You actually disagreed before readeing |
| 18:43.29 | RST38h | Doc: Allow me to do my thing |
| 18:43.29 | Estel_ | about what You disagree |
| 18:43.33 | Estel_ | calm down? |
| 18:43.42 | Estel_ | reading* |
| 18:43.53 | RST38h | Estel: What have you contributed to the CSSU, personally? |
| 18:44.05 | Estel_ | RST38h, ask CSSU devs. |
| 18:44.08 | DocScrutinizer | RST38h: what have YOU contributed? |
| 18:44.20 | RST38h | Estel: I am asking you about your contribution |
| 18:44.32 | Estel_ | Definitely not code, but not everyone have to be coder in FOSS project |
| 18:44.33 | RST38h | Doc: I contributed by not bitching about it |
| 18:44.39 | DocScrutinizer | and I'm asking you why you dare to ask? |
| 18:44.44 | RST38h | Estel: So, if not code, then what? |
| 18:44.55 | DocScrutinizer | RST38h: you approach a kick |
| 18:44.57 | RST38h | Doc: See? Always works. |
| 18:45.09 | *** join/#maemo Estel_ (~Estel@d35-11.icpnet.pl) |
| 18:45.33 | *** join/#maemo larsivi (~quassel@188.113.74.106) |
| 18:45.35 | Estel_ | testing, reporting bugs, suggesting fixes, suggesting features that actually did implemented etc |
| 18:45.36 | kerio | DocScrutinizer: the problem is that nerds, even linux nerds, still like the shiny |
| 18:45.40 | Estel_ | may I ask why You ask? |
| 18:46.11 | Estel_ | I don't see correlation between X-fade being paid uet irresponsible |
| 18:46.18 | Estel_ | with my contributions to CSSU |
| 18:46.38 | Estel_ | so, if You got something worth to say, just spit it already |
| 18:46.56 | RST38h | Estel: Well, overthe last few months I have seen several people actively voicing their dissatisfaction with how CSSU release process is organized |
| 18:46.58 | Estel_ | if not, IRC got nice set of ignore functions, as for few days, You're just trolling around |
| 18:47.20 | Estel_ | I'm *not*˙ranting about CSSU |
| 18:47.28 | RST38h | Estel: These people usually seem to imply that THEY know how it is to be done |
| 18:47.35 | Estel_ | actually, CSSU devs alltogether rant about X-fade |
| 18:47.59 | RST38h | Estel: So, I took a habit of asking everyone who rants about CSSU policies about his/her personal contribution to CSSU as of this day |
| 18:48.02 | Estel_ | RST38h, I understabd and could agree, but it seems that You again doesn't have a clue what we're talking about |
| 18:48.03 | *** join/#maemo githogori (~githogori@216.207.36.222) |
| 18:48.15 | kerio | my dissatisfaction with the CSSU comes from the fact that my usb port is broken so i can't risk installing pr1.3 and then cssu :( |
| 18:48.27 | DocScrutinizer | I develop a habit to have /kickban on a shortcut |
| 18:48.29 | Estel_ | So, Indeed You have no clue. about what we're talking about, nor recent events |
| 18:48.34 | *** join/#maemo liar (~liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at) |
| 18:48.42 | RST38h | Estel: If this contribution is nil, then I hope you agree that ranting appears to be out of place |
| 18:48.55 | Estel_ | RST38h, You could check Yourself, but I'll enlighteen You: |
| 18:49.11 | DocScrutinizer | nope, don't do that |
| 18:49.17 | Estel_ | *every*active CSSU dev is fucked up by fact, that they can't upload to testing |
| 18:49.36 | Estel_ | because repos maintainer paid by Nokia isn't doing his job |
| 18:49.39 | Estel_ | at all. |
| 18:49.41 | *** join/#maemo badcloud (~raanan@CBL217-132-205-134.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 18:49.41 | DocScrutinizer | if he doesn't bother to read last 3 months of #maemo-ssu chanlogs and continues to troll here, I simply kick him |
| 18:49.48 | DocScrutinizer | got fed up with this BS |
| 18:50.18 | Estel_ | RST38h, we're on the same side with CSSU devs. X-fade and Nokika sits on the other side, if You need simple picture |
| 18:50.40 | RST38h | Ok, so X-Fade is not doing his part. What is new here? |
| 18:50.46 | Estel_ | so, RST38h, Your trolling about contributions is out of place here, unfortunately |
| 18:50.55 | Estel_ | new things: |
| 18:51.02 | RST38h | Estel: I have not been trolling. I have been *asking* |
| 18:51.12 | Estel_ | CSSU devs consider taking CSSU to outside management system (not repos) |
| 18:51.18 | RST38h | Estel: And by the way, I have not received any definite answer from you |
| 18:51.29 | Estel_ | check irc log, lol |
| 18:51.32 | kerio | well, if the official repos suck you can just move them somewhere else |
| 18:51.37 | Estel_ | ok, but |
| 18:51.39 | Estel_ | officially |
| 18:51.44 | RST38h | Estel: Which is aabsolutely ok as fa as I am concerned |
| 18:51.50 | Estel_ | Nokia pays for Maemo infrastructure |
| 18:52.02 | Estel_ | at cost of Council having no real tools |
| 18:52.05 | RST38h | never understood masochistic preoccupation with using "official" Nokia's infrastructure |
| 18:52.13 | Estel_ | if we have to go out with CSSU |
| 18:52.36 | Estel_ | why the hell shouldn't we move *all* infrastructure |
| 18:52.56 | Estel_ | transit maemo.org to independent foundation (probably not under maemo name) |
| 18:53.04 | Estel_ | make fundraising |
| 18:53.19 | Estel_ | move content of repositories, TMO etc |
| 18:53.25 | Estel_ | cut ties with Nokia |
| 18:53.47 | Estel_ | and start creating things that we're able to create, considering Dcontributors and money raised |
| 18:53.48 | *** join/#maemo Carmivore (~carmivmor@ec2-107-22-137-127.compute-1.amazonaws.com) |
| 18:54.06 | DocScrutinizer | tmo is already the former internettablettalk |
| 18:54.08 | Estel_ | now, it seems that being tied with Nokia actually *blocks* contributions |
| 18:54.11 | Estel_ | I know |
| 18:54.16 | DocScrutinizer | and not hosted by nokia |
| 18:54.21 | Estel_ | but, Reggie was intervieved about that |
| 18:54.42 | Estel_ | he'a not interested in hosting anything for us - even for money - if not with Nokia |
| 18:54.56 | Estel_ | ho ever, he admit that TMO content belongs to community |
| 18:55.06 | Estel_ | databases etc, threads, post |
| 18:55.09 | Estel_ | posts* |
| 18:55.39 | Estel_ | The only thing I could not write roadmap for is legal procedures of creating foundation |
| 18:55.48 | Estel_ | I must admit, here I got no experience |
| 18:55.54 | DocScrutinizer | I'm also not interested where anything gets hosted, I want a proper management of permissions and roles, so not one student in IL can block the whole project |
| 18:55.56 | Estel_ | in which country, and how to start |
| 18:56.04 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, same here |
| 18:56.56 | Estel_ | but, we *must* create foundation to raise money internationally *nd in legal way |
| 18:56.59 | Estel_ | and* |
| 18:57.03 | RST38h | yawns |
| 18:57.38 | RST38h | Gentlemen, what is the problem? Create a seprate repo, clone the sources, let developers commit there, start making regular releases |
| 18:57.56 | RST38h | Estel: You are saying you cannot contribute by coding. Maybe you can contribute by maintaining a repo, etc? |
| 18:58.56 | RST38h | Doc: Maybe you can contribute by maintaining a repo? |
| 18:59.04 | *** join/#maemo SmilybOrg (Smily@BSN-176-186-63.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 19:01.12 | DocScrutinizer | no, I'm currently in the depressing situation of having to reduce my contributions, due to regular daywork eating too much of my time |
| 19:01.57 | DocScrutinizer | so I'd be a 100% clone replacement for MohammadAG |
| 19:02.07 | DocScrutinizer | incl all the problems |
| 19:02.21 | RST38h | Doc, do you want me to play Cpt Obvious here and tell you? |
| 19:02.32 | DocScrutinizer | I might consider sponsoring a server for a few months (or longer) |
| 19:02.41 | Estel_ | RST38h, I actually could, after educating myself a little |
| 19:02.45 | RST38h | You do understand that whoever picks up the flag of maintaining a new repo gets to decide about policies? |
| 19:02.59 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 19:03.06 | Estel_ | I think to get proper momentum |
| 19:03.18 | RST38h | Estel: Yes, go educate yourself! |
| 19:03.20 | Estel_ | we should coordinate moving repos and cutting ties with Nokia |
| 19:03.33 | Estel_ | You can't be half virgin half pregnant |
| 19:04.02 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 19:04.18 | Estel_ | there is no law to force anyone to contributeor discuss about it, RST38h |
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| 19:04.57 | *** join/#maemo pronto|server (~moo@pool-173-69-178-35.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) |
| 19:04.57 | Estel_ | You realise, that despite Your philosophy, You actuallly 'contribute' rants to project of cutting ties to Nokiam and creating foundation? |
| 19:05.24 | *** join/#maemo scoobertron (~tom@93.186.155.251) |
| 19:05.28 | peppe9O | !list |
| 19:05.32 | RST38h | Estel: All I am doing here is stating the obvious. |
| 19:06.00 | DocScrutinizer | peppe9O: tsil! |
| 19:06.06 | RST38h | I am not ranting. I am not bitching. I do not have strong opinion on the subject. Just letting you face the reality. |
| 19:06.07 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, despite my quite bad financial situations, I would also donate "something". I thing there are more people that could either donate, sponsor something bigger, contribute, volounteer, or mix of above |
| 19:06.31 | *** part/#maemo peppe9O (~peppe@host174-154-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:06.32 | Estel_ | RST38h, every troll say like that, but lets end this off-topic ;) |
| 19:06.48 | RST38h | And the reality is: You want to change something? Go and change it. |
| 19:07.13 | RST38h | Set up a repo, clone the sources, tell the developers, start buildingpackages on weekly basis. |
| 19:07.20 | Estel_ | that's what I plan to do, instead I talk with one ranting guy on irc, which I just stopped ;) |
| 19:07.40 | RST38h | Good chap. |
| 19:07.48 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, sitting here longer than me, do You recall someone with any legal experience? |
| 19:08.12 | Estel_ | You know, the bitchy part about setting up non-profit foundation |
| 19:08.14 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. Hans Reiser? |
| 19:09.29 | *** join/#maemo trbs (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623) |
| 19:09.31 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, watch out, me and charles manson likes the same ice cream |
| 19:09.35 | RST38h | SpeedEvil: Sadly, good old Hans is not with us at the moment... |
| 19:09.42 | Estel_ | seriously though |
| 19:10.24 | Estel_ | I'm thinking about someone currently active on maemo, if not on code side, may be even on talking task force ;) |
| 19:11.37 | RST38h | "talking task force" is a nice euphemism |
| 19:14.07 | *** join/#maemo evilbulgarian (~vladi@66-192-149-18.static.twtelecom.net) |
| 19:14.36 | DocScrutinizer | listen, Estel_ - there's an URL http://maemo.cloud-7.de, there's a paypal donation button ( https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=7WZTBYALFZDJU ), and I don't see we'd need a foundation to handle those 89$US/month it needs to keep this alive but won't ever come in by donations. What's missing is a sysop that knows how to set up a repo, and maintainers who will check in new stuff, etc pp |
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| 19:19.51 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, first thing that came to my mind - we would not be allowed to use maemo name (trademark) |
| 19:19.59 | Estel_ | so no go for maemo.cloud |
| 19:20.42 | *** join/#maemo liar (~liar@213.162.68.175) |
| 19:21.01 | Estel_ | second, annual cost of maintaining infrastructure&projects - if we consider total switch from Nokia'a maemo.org could exceed ammount of money that can be raised without being legal entity |
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| 19:21.04 | *** join/#maemo mc_teo` (~mc_teo@unaffiliated/mcteo) |
| 19:21.24 | Estel_ | that's why every serious project, start from Debian, end on LibreOffice, is foundation |
| 19:22.32 | Estel_ | basically, I agree that we need knowldgeable guy to maintain repos |
| 19:22.42 | Estel_ | I got a little idea |
| 19:22.59 | Estel_ | will post it in "ask council" (no laughs please) later |
| 19:23.16 | Estel_ | SD69is nice guy, but he won't do it all alone. |
| 19:23.28 | Estel_ | different question |
| 19:24.10 | Estel_ | I would like to mess with exporting X display from N900 into my linuxbox (as preparation to do same using raspberry pi as linuxbox) |
| 19:24.32 | Estel_ | any iea how to properly export display with any given resolution from N900 X? |
| 19:24.48 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 19:24.50 | gregoa | Estel_: debian is not a foundation (or any other legal entity), it uses several non-profits (SPI, ffis, ...) for handling money, domains, etc. |
| 19:24.58 | Estel_ | do we have everything needed on device/repos/need to install something compiled from Debian repos? |
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| 19:25.18 | Estel_ | gregoa, true. |
| 19:25.27 | Estel_ | it's also a possible way of doing this |
| 19:26.51 | kerio | Estel_: it won't actually work for most maemo applications, they have an hardcoded x display iirc |
| 19:27.07 | kerio | but just export DISPLAY=yourpc:0 |
| 19:27.34 | SpeedEvil | Even if you kil them and restart them, most don't work properly |
| 19:28.24 | DocScrutinizer | Estel_: I'm using this URL since 18 months now, and I don't think I'll see any problems with calling a subdomain of cloud-7.de maemo, as well as there won't be any problems with directories named e.g maemo5 on this site |
| 19:29.35 | *** join/#maemo sq-one (~sq-one@p54A1EA76.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:31.17 | DocScrutinizer | and for now projects like debian or LibreOffice have more downloads in one second than CSSU ever had, counting and adding up all from beginning until right now |
| 19:32.24 | luke-jr | What was that cheap open hardware handheld? |
| 19:32.27 | luke-jr | like $50 or $100? |
| 19:33.07 | *** join/#maemo mardi (~Rod@host86-185-61-6.range86-185.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:33.58 | luke-jr | Estel_: are you overlooking the fact that Nokia owns Maemo? |
| 19:34.17 | DocScrutinizer | err wut? |
| 19:35.25 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: didn't someone make a cheap open hardware handheld? |
| 19:35.27 | luke-jr | not very powerful? |
| 19:36.37 | Estel_ | luke-jr, Nokia only owns name |
| 19:37.02 | luke-jr | Estel_: no, Nokia owns the copyright |
| 19:37.03 | Estel_ | kerio, any way to go around thiks build-in jardcoded export |
| 19:37.42 | Estel_ | luke-jr, no, it doesn't ;) |
| 19:37.49 | luke-jr | Estel_: yes, they do |
| 19:37.55 | Estel_ | it owns name and closed source components |
| 19:37.59 | luke-jr | Estel_: you're just exposing how clueless you are |
| 19:38.10 | luke-jr | Estel_: which is most of Maemo |
| 19:38.18 | Estel_ | we can use and base further things on (LJGPLed stuff and similar |
| 19:38.25 | Estel_ | can't agree. |
| 19:38.27 | luke-jr | easier to rewrite from scratch |
| 19:38.41 | Estel_ | I know, famous Nokia's repos |
| 19:38.55 | Estel_ | if they woould not like to host it for N900 owners |
| 19:39.07 | Estel_ | it would mean that they drop support entirely for device |
| 19:39.08 | *** join/#maemo liar (~liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at) |
| 19:39.09 | Estel_ | not system |
| 19:39.35 | Estel_ | we as system doesn't need to care from where users take device specific things |
| 19:39.44 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 19:40.13 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, You suggested X export display:<device> as nice method |
| 19:40.19 | luke-jr | anyway, just join the Gentoo on N900 project |
| 19:40.20 | luke-jr | :P |
| 19:40.44 | Estel_ | now kerio bring ups the fact that most programs got display hardcoded for N900 screen |
| 19:40.53 | Estel_ | any way of getting around it? |
| 19:41.23 | Estel_ | luke-jr, thanks, not interested as geento on N900 would never fulfil criteria of working components. Not that I think such projects can't exist |
| 19:43.02 | luke-jr | Estel_: yeah, ok mr. clueless |
| 19:43.13 | luke-jr | "never" is a big word. |
| 19:43.47 | luke-jr | the hardest part is already working, and everything else is basically a matter of time |
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| 19:46.02 | Estel_ | luke-jr, let's just say that Your attempts to run gentoo doesn't change fact that maemo as a whole need infrastructure not related to Nokia |
| 19:46.13 | Estel_ | and I'm actually interested on the latter project |
| 19:46.23 | luke-jr | Estel_: Maemo as a whole *is* Nokia |
| 19:46.30 | Estel_ | still being sympathetic for other |
| 19:47.16 | kerio | Estel_: there's the issue of the indispensable closed-source parts though |
| 19:47.18 | Estel_ | I don't see any reason for why maemo foundation (nder a different name, of course) could not support debian/gentoo/arch/whatever on N900, if it really is project with future |
| 19:47.20 | kerio | firmwares and the bme |
| 19:47.45 | luke-jr | kerio: BME is dispensable. |
| 19:48.00 | Estel_ | but that needs proper discussing, as geento on N900 haven't get widespread interest, and I must admit I've just run through it's thread briefly |
| 19:48.06 | Estel_ | so indeed I'm clueless |
| 19:48.09 | Estel_ | so indeed I'm clueless about it |
| 19:48.16 | Estel_ | but, first thing first |
| 19:48.23 | Estel_ | lets properly organise what we have now |
| 19:48.44 | kerio | luke-jr: is it? |
| 19:48.45 | Estel_ | and then think about supporting other things like <whatever> on N900, designing own device etc |
| 19:49.03 | kerio | i thought there was still the issue that nokia has no official bl-5j data sheet |
| 19:49.14 | luke-jr | kerio: also, the only problematic firmware afaik is the Bluetooth |
| 19:49.27 | kerio | everything else has an OSS replacement or is OSS already? |
| 19:49.28 | kerio | :o |
| 19:49.39 | luke-jr | kerio: no, everything else is unnecessary |
| 19:49.41 | luke-jr | err |
| 19:49.47 | luke-jr | every other firmware is OSS/replacable |
| 19:49.59 | luke-jr | other being at least wifi and cameras |
| 19:50.38 | kerio | camera? |
| 19:50.42 | kerio | really? :o |
| 19:50.51 | kerio | oh, with fcam? |
| 19:51.17 | luke-jr | with or without |
| 19:51.32 | luke-jr | https://gitorious.org/omap3camera |
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| 20:06.29 | Estel_ | luke-jr, btw, if You say that geento on N900 is so complete, does same apply for debian or arch linux, using same components that geento use to talk with N900 hardware parts, instead of Nokia binary blobs? |
| 20:09.55 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, ping? |
| 20:10.20 | luke-jr | Estel_: the guy porting Debian is not using the same components |
| 20:12.07 | Estel_ | ok, but I'm talking about possibilities, not existing solutions |
| 20:12.33 | Estel_ | theoretically, instead of using bloated gentoo, we can take arch linux, and achieve the same, yep? |
| 20:12.57 | Estel_ | (gentoo bloated < than debian, >than arch) |
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| 20:54.11 | burro | i apt-get upgraded my debian, and org always blackscreens on launch |
| 20:54.27 | burro | 0 bytes in Xorg.0.log. only the 2.6.37 meego kernel from the rescueOS guy ever booted properly into a pre-X terminal |
| 20:54.32 | burro | switched back to maemo becuse it f'n works |
| 20:55.02 | burro | couldnt get the TS_calibrate thing working right (it did 2 years ago) either, despite fixing up the /dev/input paths so they matched what dmesg/xorg.log was saying |
| 20:55.14 | burro | did you have better luck luke-jr? |
| 20:55.40 | burro | considering maemo uses dbus, pulseaudio, xorg, all the *normal* linux stuff, i have no real incentive to switch to something less polished |
| 20:56.00 | burro | i mean how many ppl did Nokia employ tto smooth out all sorts of little irritating issues? for how many years? we're praobly talking a 200 million doollar investment |
| 20:56.03 | *** join/#maemo dangergrrl (~ariana@8.22.83.149) |
| 20:56.18 | luke-jr | burro: pulseaudio isn't normal, it's crap |
| 20:56.21 | burro | heh |
| 20:56.23 | burro | i prefe rjackd |
| 20:56.27 | *** join/#maemo mece (~mece@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe2edc00-208.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 20:56.35 | burro | but at least it gracefully handles call-audo-routing and switching off mediaplayer temporarily etc |
| 20:56.35 | luke-jr | no idea why you have so much trouble :P |
| 20:56.50 | burro | i followed both rescueOS and pancake guy's guides |
| 20:56.58 | burro | and have 15 years of experience fixing linux systems |
| 20:56.59 | burro | and a ton of stuff is stil broken |
| 20:57.02 | burro | on play debian on n900 |
| 20:57.12 | burro | if its so simple, point me to something that actualy works |
| 20:57.24 | burro | even the rescueOS guy sys the latest vanila kernel simply doesnt work, and my results seem to jibe with that |
| 20:57.35 | burro | its even mroe fundamental than missing drivers, like interrupt/hw/bootup issue of some sort |
| 20:57.55 | Estel_ | burro, totally agree |
| 20:58.21 | Estel_ | thats why I'm sceptical about ideas of using <whatever] existing os in Maemo, whe I can use it as ED chroot |
| 20:58.38 | burro | yeah |
| 20:58.38 | Estel_ | anyway, luke-jr, You haven"t answered my question about gentoo on N900 ;) |
| 20:58.46 | burro | with a bit of LD_LIBRARY_PATH you don even need a chroot |
| 20:59.09 | burro | i wouldnt midn switching back to Illume/E17 on debian ,but i simply couldnt |
| 20:59.10 | luke-jr | burro: I don't use Debian, I use Gentoo. |
| 20:59.23 | burro | couldnt even get X launching/configured right, with the 1 kernel that at least booted to a login prompt |
| 20:59.24 | Estel_ | burro, if You manage to rewrite ED to not being chrot and retain funcionality, I'll bless You |
| 20:59.28 | burro | luke-jr: and which kernel? |
| 20:59.38 | burro | i use Arch Linux on my destops |
| 20:59.40 | luke-jr | burro: power49 currently |
| 20:59.48 | burro | frankly, since it has binaries for everything, i prefer it to gentoo |
| 20:59.51 | burro | gnetoo is nice on 8-core boxes |
| 20:59.56 | Estel_ | I would also preffer arch linux on N900 over bloated geento |
| 20:59.57 | burro | or with a distcc/binpkg setup |
| 21:00.08 | luke-jr | Estel_: haha, idiot. Gentoo is the opposite of bloated. |
| 21:00.15 | luke-jr | burro: yes, I use distcc |
| 21:00.17 | burro | luke-jr: thats 2.6.28, maemo's kernel |
| 21:00.23 | burro | vanilla has a different API for the drivers that got rolled in |
| 21:00.25 | Estel_ | luke-jr, first of all, mind Your language |
| 21:00.31 | burro | so , normal linux stuff will have all sorts of issues running on an old kernel like that |
| 21:00.31 | Estel_ | second, bloated is relative |
| 21:00.34 | NIN101 | I could boot (and use) into a debian sid, illume/e17, so it works. It's possible. |
| 21:00.40 | Estel_ | You sounds like plain geento fanboy, IMO |
| 21:00.43 | luke-jr | Estel_: don't like being called an idiot, stop acting like one |
| 21:01.01 | luke-jr | burro: no, normal Linux stuff still works fine with 2.6.28 |
| 21:01.06 | Estel_ | geento isn't bloated relative to debian or ubuntu, but is heelish bloated relative to arch linux |
| 21:01.13 | burro | evne FM radio, GPS, battery? |
| 21:01.18 | burro | if i cant use 100% of the hardware im not interested |
| 21:01.21 | Estel_ | and if You like to act like 15 years old fanboy, do so. |
| 21:01.26 | burro | only way that was possible was 3.2 linux with 3 git-repos |
| 21:01.33 | luke-jr | burro: none of those are normal Linux stuff |
| 21:01.39 | burro | for experiemental/unifnihsed drivers |
| 21:01.39 | *** join/#maemo z4chh (~zach@nat-2-128-194-3-128.resnet.tamu.edu) |
| 21:01.52 | luke-jr | burro: battery currently requires a small shell script |
| 21:02.00 | luke-jr | burro: GPS, I need to finish writing the gpsd driver |
| 21:02.02 | burro | yeah, ive run E17 and panacke's i2cset script |
| 21:02.13 | luke-jr | FM radio, isn't anywhere near the top of my list |
| 21:02.41 | *** join/#maemo badcloud (~raanan@CBL217-132-205-134.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 21:03.17 | Estel_ | btw, http://funroll-loops.info/gentoo.jpg |
| 21:03.45 | burro | #gentoo-n900 empty,, is there a wiki, forum what? |
| 21:05.00 | burro | ARM is prety fragmented and highly-evolving it didnt shock me so much HW/driver stuff was broken |
| 21:05.19 | burro | but Debian still uses i386 dont they? they love supporting the oldest/most-compatible arch |
| 21:05.22 | burro | so im not really loking forward to 5x the tweaking to get gentoo going |
| 21:05.52 | FIQ | um |
| 21:05.57 | burro | instead of just learning something wont run, i get to wait 3 hours for it to compile on ARM first :) |
| 21:06.02 | burro | or go setup some cross-compile setup |
| 21:06.10 | FIQ | I use arch linux, but when it comes to which is most bloated, arch sure is more bloat then gentoo...? |
| 21:06.17 | burro | how so? |
| 21:06.28 | wmarone | define "bloat" |
| 21:06.31 | burro | not really interested in an arch vs gentoo vs ubuntu war |
| 21:06.39 | burro | point me to a wiki that explains GEntoo on n900 i will try it |
| 21:06.44 | burro | cuz ,debiian didn twork to well on latest-sid for wahtever reasons |
| 21:06.45 | FIQ | neihter am I |
| 21:06.54 | FIQ | but ^ was @ Estel_ |
| 21:07.26 | FIQ | wmarone: most things included from start |
| 21:07.41 | wmarone | which means? |
| 21:08.01 | burro | nothing is included |
| 21:08.17 | burro | except some crap in /bin and a pacakage manager really |
| 21:08.39 | burro | so the mutt binary on debian/arch proably has --with-imap |
| 21:08.49 | burro | and on gentoo you get to nano /etc/package.conf and USE=imap or something |
| 21:08.59 | burro | just to save 12K in a binary and 2 seconds of compile time, yet spend 3x as long configuring it |
| 21:09.07 | Estel_ | FIQ, in arch You shouldn't get almost anything from start |
| 21:09.19 | Estel_ | I'm not in war between linux distros lol |
| 21:09.27 | FIQ | True, but with Gentoo, I though you got nothing at all :D |
| 21:09.31 | FIQ | Never used gentoo for myself |
| 21:10.00 | Estel_ | this picture was only to irritate luke-jr a little - who act like fanboy without any meritocratic arguments and goes to insult on first sign of being arguments-less |
| 21:10.22 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 21:10.23 | burro | due to being all-source, Genteoo is sometimes like, a few days ahead of sid |
| 21:10.24 | burro | but not much |
| 21:10.34 | burro | i doubt some significant N900-hardware-related-fixes are only avilable ote gentoo users |
| 21:10.41 | burro | for vanila kernel and various apps |
| 21:10.44 | Estel_ | it's all based on debian this way of another |
| 21:10.57 | burro | its a matter of incentive, if someone paid me to fix vanilla issues with n900 i would. but who is gonna do that? |
| 21:11.00 | burro | so i'll just use maeo |
| 21:11.05 | luke-jr | burro: Gentoo works fine with power kernel |
| 21:11.07 | Estel_ | it would be pretty romantic story. Except for a part, that Debian still exist, and their marriage doesn't |
| 21:11.20 | Estel_ | well, it *is* romantic somehow |
| 21:11.21 | luke-jr | burro: upgrading the kernel is not in itself a priority yet on N900 |
| 21:11.24 | Estel_ | seriously though |
| 21:11.30 | burro | ok, but i use Maep and FM-tuner and camera almost exclusively |
| 21:11.31 | burro | and i have a feeling at least 1 of those is broken, i'll give it a shot tho |
| 21:11.35 | FIQ | hmm, when it comes to the power kernel |
| 21:11.53 | FIQ | I tried to install uboot-power to get uboot *and* the power kernel, but failed due to broken dependicies |
| 21:12.04 | FIQ | as uboot-power depends on an outdated version of the power kernel |
| 21:12.05 | Estel_ | I'm now mostly interested in a woking way to Export X display from N900 |
| 21:12.24 | FIQ | how do i solve that? :p |
| 21:12.26 | Estel_ | considering the fact, that most thing gots it hardcoded to N900 screen |
| 21:12.27 | burro | you can build uboot from git |
| 21:12.44 | Estel_ | burro, with all Your linux-related knowledge |
| 21:12.46 | burro | see http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/u-boot.txt and http://gitorious.org/u-boot-shr/u-boot |
| 21:12.52 | FIQ | uh, i'd rather not, then I prefer the usual kernel |
| 21:13.02 | Estel_ | any way, to effectively export N900 (maemo) display with any set resolution |
| 21:13.06 | FIQ | over compiling my own version of u-boot |
| 21:13.09 | burro | Estel_: git on Maemo didnt even clone gitorious properly |
| 21:13.10 | Estel_ | to listen for it on other linuxbox? |
| 21:13.12 | burro | so i had to instal a chroot just for git |
| 21:13.20 | burro | the divergence of vanilla *is* annoying from maemo |
| 21:13.27 | burro | which is why im semi-interested in getting off of it eventualy |
| 21:13.41 | burro | pulseaudio-network wont talk to modern pulseaudio on netbook due to version changes etc |
| 21:13.42 | Estel_ | probably agreed, but I'm asking about slightly different topic ;) |
| 21:13.54 | burro | can you not export DISPLAY=remotehost:0 and launch a maemo app? |
| 21:14.17 | *** join/#maemo jhb (~joerg@p579F60E4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:14.46 | Estel_ | got problems and one guy here said, that most programs on maemo got it hardcoded to point into N900 screen |
| 21:15.12 | Estel_ | the idea is to develop a most hassle-free method, that I can later use with USB networking to Raspberry Pi |
| 21:15.13 | burro | weak |
| 21:15.17 | burro | so youd have to recompile the progs |
| 21:15.26 | Estel_ | to export whole display to Pi |
| 21:15.32 | Estel_ | and then, using Pi HDMI |
| 21:15.35 | Estel_ | to screen |
| 21:15.46 | *** join/#maemo scoobertron (~tom@93.186.155.251) |
| 21:15.47 | Estel_ | = workaround for lack of DVI/VGA out in N900 |
| 21:15.54 | burro | hpefully Samsung drops a phone w HDMI that runs normal debian |
| 21:16.00 | burro | as a side-effect of tha tTizen thing |
| 21:16.04 | Estel_ | would not count on that |
| 21:16.04 | burro | which frankly doesnt loook any more vanilla than Maemo |
| 21:16.21 | burro | im sure itll have all sorts of obnoxious dbus crap and forekd versions and propreitary firmwares |
| 21:16.25 | burro | same old.. |
| 21:16.37 | Estel_ | ok, to be honest I'm total noob when it comes to exporting X - seriously |
| 21:16.38 | burro | *if* they ever ditch ANdroid |
| 21:16.46 | burro | theres some shell script that runs i believe |
| 21:16.52 | burro | to setup environment vars feor maemo apps, widget kits etc |
| 21:17.12 | Estel_ | I open xterm as root, and do what? |
| 21:17.20 | burro | it may be overriding your DISPLAY options |
| 21:17.28 | burro | im somewhat skeptical they hardcoeded DISPLAY into binaries, but maybe tey did |
| 21:17.33 | Estel_ | I would like to filter other possible issues with exportind display |
| 21:17.38 | Estel_ | including user error |
| 21:17.46 | burro | brb, disabling -nolisten |
| 21:17.56 | Estel_ | thanks |
| 21:18.11 | Estel_ | I'm also sceptical about hardcoding display into binaries |
| 21:18.11 | burro | ps aux | grep X on your desktop |
| 21:18.16 | burro | maybe sure "-nolisten" is not there |
| 21:18.17 | Estel_ | can't imagine sane reason to do so |
| 21:18.18 | burro | it is by defaut |
| 21:18.23 | burro | then type xhost + |
| 21:18.27 | burro | to make sure n900 can connect |
| 21:18.34 | burro | otherwise it will revert back to maemo's display |
| 21:18.42 | burro | or error out |
| 21:19.11 | Estel_ | wait, although I understand what You mean, I'm lost in chronology |
| 21:19.12 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: They are not generally hardcoded - they just don't work over the network, but require shared local memory in many cases |
| 21:19.31 | burro | heh forgot about SHM |
| 21:19.37 | Estel_ | oh, and here I don't have a clue what it means ;) |
| 21:19.47 | burro | MIT X_SHM server extension or something |
| 21:19.51 | burro | you cant share memory between machines :) |
| 21:20.00 | SpeedEvil | you can |
| 21:20.03 | burro | oh |
| 21:20.03 | SpeedEvil | but it's complex |
| 21:20.08 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, so given the fact that I'm trying to test exporting display with my desktop linuxbox |
| 21:20.09 | burro | advanced topic ;) |
| 21:20.23 | burro | try an xterm |
| 21:20.26 | burro | or xeyes :) |
| 21:20.28 | Estel_ | how the heel should I getting started |
| 21:20.40 | Estel_ | googling for exporting X wasn't very productive |
| 21:20.57 | burro | ive exported *To* phone no probs |
| 21:21.00 | burro | using it as a sor tof remote-control |
| 21:21.00 | FIQ | exporting X? forwarding it? |
| 21:21.09 | burro | ssh can usualy gett around nolisten, it hink |
| 21:21.11 | burro | ssh -X |
| 21:21.19 | burro | check /etc/sshd_config and enable X forwarding |
| 21:21.31 | FIQ | X-forwarding have worked fine for me computer-->N900 |
| 21:21.37 | mgedmin | so, jumping in without checking backlog: /etc/profile on maemo5 does export DISPLAY=:0 |
| 21:21.44 | FIQ | the opposite way has not been as trivial |
| 21:21.47 | mgedmin | which screws up most attempts to use ssh X forwarding |
| 21:21.53 | mgedmin | IIRC |
| 21:21.55 | *** join/#maemo beford (~fercho@unaffiliated/beford) |
| 21:22.18 | FIQ | iirc i managed to forward fennec as a test one time |
| 21:22.37 | FIQ | don't remember how i did, but pretty much every application failed |
| 21:23.05 | mgedmin | I think I managed it once? after sudo apt-get install xauth from the SDK repo and an explicit DISPLAY=:9 or something like that |
| 21:23.17 | mgedmin | I've forgotten the specifics, just remember the pain |
| 21:23.25 | FIQ | i've given up :D |
| 21:24.07 | Estel_ | Yea, I know this project would at some point require someone much more experienced than me ;) anyway, someone must start to try it hard way... |
| 21:24.35 | Estel_ | mgedmin - generally it's idea about using Raspberry Pi |
| 21:24.53 | Estel_ | as credit card sized 25$ linuxbox with HDMI and USB |
| 21:25.03 | Estel_ | to export N900 display via usb networking |
| 21:25.08 | Estel_ | get it on Pi |
| 21:25.13 | Estel_ | and use it's HDMI |
| 21:25.30 | Estel_ | to get - via this workaround - fully functional HDMI output for N900 |
| 21:25.33 | mgedmin | so you want the N900's screen on a TV? |
| 21:25.45 | mgedmin | why not use the included A/V cable ;) |
| 21:25.54 | Estel_ | with added benefit of Pi that can be also used as USB to LAN or plentora other things |
| 21:26.05 | Estel_ | first of all, monitor, not TV |
| 21:26.12 | Estel_ | second, AV cable is PAL max |
| 21:26.30 | Estel_ | horrible qu!ity to use for bowser or LibreOffice or EasyDebian or whatever |
| 21:26.44 | Estel_ | I travel with N900, small usb mini-keyboard, bluetooth mouse |
| 21:26.51 | Estel_ | hostmode ;) |
| 21:26.54 | mgedmin | third, N900's dinky CPU/graphics chip/and especially the memory channel to the LCD controller can barely handle 800x480 |
| 21:27.05 | Estel_ | and last thning lacking for 100% portable computer in pocket |
| 21:27.14 | Estel_ | is good quality video out, vga or DVI |
| 21:27.18 | mgedmin | and Pi is insufficient? |
| 21:27.28 | mgedmin | as the portable computer? |
| 21:27.37 | Estel_ | N900 got better performance in many aspects |
| 21:27.55 | mgedmin | I wonder how much it can do -- IIRC I recently saw a Pi running xbmc on a HDTV |
| 21:27.59 | mgedmin | on youtube |
| 21:28.17 | Estel_ | Pi can achieve many thnings but it's performance vary depending on usage |
| 21:28.33 | Estel_ | closed broadcom SoC can achieve awesome hings in one aspect |
| 21:28.49 | mgedmin | closed? |
| 21:28.57 | mgedmin | in what sense? |
| 21:29.01 | Estel_ | and be fail in another, that should require similar or lower ammount of resources |
| 21:29.06 | Estel_ | in every sense :P |
| 21:29.17 | Estel_ | firmware, drivers etc |
| 21:29.25 | Estel_ | Pi boot using GPU |
| 21:29.36 | Estel_ | it load something and bootloader from SD card |
| 21:29.45 | Estel_ | MPU gets alive after GPU |
| 21:29.49 | Estel_ | anyway |
| 21:30.14 | Estel_ | lets focus on current scenario, which include achieving external display of N900 via pi - real display, not remote desktop |
| 21:30.51 | Estel_ | You know, when I got somewhere a 1280x900 monitor, I could use it with native resolution from N900. In theory ;) |
| 21:31.00 | SpeedEvil | hmm |
| 21:31.07 | SpeedEvil | looks at Tizen announce on /. |
| 21:31.21 | Estel_ | BTW, regular N900 resolution is 800x480, but downscalling to PAL or NTSC makes effect even worse |
| 21:31.45 | Estel_ | BTW, one guy proposed to use remaining USB networking bandwidth |
| 21:31.53 | Estel_ | 20-25 MB/s |
| 21:32.04 | Estel_ | to use Pi RAM as faster swap for N900 |
| 21:32.14 | Estel_ | no idea if it's really useful in practice |
| 21:32.30 | FIQ | http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/2033227/tizen-webos-the-future-of-mobile-open-source this? |
| 21:32.31 | FIQ | @ SpeedEvil |
| 21:32.35 | Estel_ | but it shows that N900 in tandem with Pi can get some exciting new features |
| 21:32.48 | SpeedEvil | FIQ: no |
| 21:32.56 | FIQ | oh well |
| 21:33.00 | Estel_ | Oh yea, counting until Tizen get killed started? |
| 21:33.08 | SpeedEvil | http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/01/10/2031238/tizen-source-code-released |
| 21:33.38 | Estel_ | So, SpeedEvil, mgedmin and other knowledgeable ones |
| 21:33.57 | Estel_ | Could You point me into how to start experimenting with exporting this display properly? |
| 21:34.04 | Estel_ | i'm still lost a little |
| 21:34.12 | mgedmin | I wouldn't know where to start! |
| 21:34.19 | mgedmin | what do you mean "export a display" and "non-remotely"? |
| 21:34.26 | mgedmin | solder a VGA/HDMI socket onto the N900? |
| 21:34.37 | mgedmin | not possible, in my opinion |
| 21:34.41 | Estel_ | properly. I haven't used "non-reemotely" |
| 21:35.18 | mgedmin | 'real display, not remote desktop' |
| 21:35.18 | Estel_ | erm, I'm still thinking about exporting via X export display to pi... |
| 21:35.28 | Estel_ | remote desktop = VNC etc |
| 21:35.33 | mgedmin | ah |
| 21:35.34 | SpeedEvil | It's not possible to do right. |
| 21:35.37 | Estel_ | real display = X display |
| 21:35.46 | burro | " |
| 21:35.52 | SpeedEvil | Most of the apps on the n900 - at least teh builtin binary ones - require shared memory |
| 21:35.59 | Estel_ | wait, wait, not possible in which sense |
| 21:36.00 | burro | sorry.. was amused by MeeGo and its descendants have been a huge clusterfuck, Maemo has a nice working desktop environment and is the closest to a regular desktop Linux distro underneath. The best thing to do as a next step would have been to bring it even closer to a standard Linux distro, maybe base it on Debian ARM and put Maemo's desktop and apps on top. |
| 21:36.01 | Estel_ | hm |
| 21:36.23 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, no workarounds? |
| 21:36.34 | Estel_ | maybe we can achieve shared memory somehow? ;) |
| 21:36.39 | SpeedEvil | Estel_: In principle, you could write a shim-zserver |
| 21:36.58 | Estel_ | mgedmin mentioned using something from SDK to avoid shared mem requiment |
| 21:37.07 | burro | VNC is trivial to do hwoever |
| 21:37.08 | mgedmin | no I did not |
| 21:37.12 | burro | you just apt-get install x11vnc |
| 21:37.15 | burro | and lauch it |
| 21:37.19 | Estel_ | I'm using vnc for ages |
| 21:37.52 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, write shim-zserver = use something existing and modify, or wfrite something from scratch? |
| 21:38.32 | Estel_ | remember, You're talking to non-coder (well, I'm actually learning slowly how to code basic things) |
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| 21:39.00 | Estel_ | I would love to leave this project for more experienced ones and wait for ready to use results, but it's not that easy;) |
| 21:39.14 | Estel_ | thats why I had to move my a** and bugy You all here on IRC |
| 21:40.18 | Estel_ | as creating HDMI output for N900 via Pi + other benefits from using it in tandem with N900 is too great thing to abandon it |
| 21:40.31 | Estel_ | unless there is really no achievable/feasible method |
| 21:40.48 | SpeedEvil | A xserver thjat supports shared memory, and fakes it to another xserver over the link |
| 21:41.09 | burro | its going to be painful and slow |
| 21:41.15 | burro | how about a 25 dollar ATom board.. |
| 21:41.18 | Estel_ | undrstood. Whats the catch? |
| 21:41.20 | burro | and just use that on HDMI when you nee dit |
| 21:41.41 | burro | youre going to have 2 maxed-out ARM devices screaming in pain shuttlin around pixels and memory |
| 21:41.46 | burro | or one pretty fast Atom |
| 21:41.53 | Estel_ | SpeedEvil, such xserver would be troublesome to implement for N900? |
| 21:42.38 | Estel_ | burro, I think VNC is more screaming pain (bandwidth and compression) |
| 21:42.45 | burro | i donno |
| 21:42.52 | burro | on slow DSL i used to get better results wiht VNC than X |
| 21:42.55 | mgedmin | "if you nail a goat to a horse, you won't need to buy a car!" |
| 21:42.55 | burro | perhaps due to roundtrip latency? |
| 21:43.01 | Estel_ | also, I don't know any 25$ atom board comparable to N900 features |
| 21:43.02 | burro | plus, X apps love to just crash/disappear |
| 21:43.05 | burro | if versions slightly mismatch anywhere |
| 21:43.08 | burro | or the SHM Stuff is missing etc |
| 21:43.20 | Estel_ | hm |
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| 21:45.11 | burro | can you export data instead of GUIs? |
| 21:45.15 | burro | eg with rsync, nfs, dropbox, whatever |
| 21:46.05 | burro | samba, webserver+webdav/post, etc |
| 21:46.17 | burro | theres a ton of ways to integrate a Maemo device w/ a network compared to most mobile OSes |
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| 21:48.06 | burro | does N9 have HDMI out? can that run Maemo? etc |
| 21:49.45 | burro | a single device for everything w/ HDMI would be nice. but imo a netbook + n900 is less annoying than 2 weak ARM dongles + A ton of hacked SHM stuff |
| 21:50.20 | burro | at least until 2-3 years when Tizen kils android, and even Nokia gets in the game, hehehehe |
| 21:50.23 | burro | </drema> |
| 21:50.45 | ShadowJK | tizen sounds like yet another regression :) |
| 21:50.49 | mgedmin | N9 has no HDMI out |
| 21:51.02 | burro | perosnally i run an HTTP server on my n900, and access 'webmail' from whatever netbook/ipad is around |
| 21:51.03 | FIQ | would be fun to watch nokia REJOIN a project derived of something they left |
| 21:52.06 | burro | if HP is any indicator. theyll announce/abandon a few strategies a year |
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| 21:52.26 | burro | aybe the Win Phone thing was just a temporary troll from Elop |
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| 21:53.17 | burro | has anyone gotten vanila Debian/Arch/Gentoo running smoothly on any modern phone w/ HDMI out? |
| 21:53.27 | burro | i remember 2004-era HTCs could run debian+matchbox or something, havent investigated lately |
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| 23:23.54 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, lets say that Maemo is going to start process of moving repositories to open source git servers tommorow |
| 23:24.22 | Estel_ | is Your idea about donating server for that purpose (for few months) actual? |
| 23:24.43 | Estel_ | I think it would be more than enough time, to properly fundraise money |
| 23:29.45 | luke-jr | Maemo is dead. |
| 23:29.53 | burro | yawn |
| 23:30.03 | burro | luke-jr: link me the gentoo "howto n900" page already |
| 23:30.10 | luke-jr | burro: don't have one. |
| 23:30.23 | burro | so, is there a portage binary for armel i can grab |
| 23:30.29 | luke-jr | burro: yes |
| 23:30.31 | burro | i prefer Paludis over Portage, btw |
| 23:30.36 | burro | back when i had fast CPUs |
| 23:30.45 | luke-jr | last I checked, Paludis didn't work on non-x86 |
| 23:30.51 | luke-jr | http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/arm/autobuilds/current-stage3-armv7a_hardfp/ <-- stage3 |
| 23:30.56 | burro | k |
| 23:31.07 | burro | i tried Ekiga, and Ekiga-lite |
| 23:31.11 | luke-jr | http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/packages/hardfp/gcc45/ <-- binpkgs |
| 23:31.20 | burro | both had all sorts of idiotic SIP related errors. yet Maemo's SIP works perfect in comparison |
| 23:31.26 | luke-jr | http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/kernels/ <-- various kernels |
| 23:31.30 | burro | i kind of appreciate all the polish that went into Maemo |
| 23:31.36 | burro | after futzing around with e17/debian for a bit |
| 23:32.10 | luke-jr | be sure to add the n900 overlay too |
| 23:32.23 | burro | wheres the IRC channel, so i dont have to clog this one with off topic |
| 23:32.31 | burro | was it #gentoo-embedded or something |
| 23:32.40 | luke-jr | it's not usually considered off topic here, but #gentoo-embedded is fine too |
| 23:32.51 | burro | well, as far as Maemo apps |
| 23:32.56 | burro | is all the GTK customizations in maemo open source |
| 23:33.01 | burro | id like to reuse some of the apps, if possible |
| 23:33.14 | Wizzup | burro: pretty sure they have to be |
| 23:33.34 | luke-jr | burro: no idea, I don't use GTK apps |
| 23:33.56 | burro | most non-browser apps i use are GTK, maemo or other OS |
| 23:34.09 | burro | so i like Maemo's choice of GTK over Tizen's EFL.. |
| 23:34.14 | burro | evne if enlightenment is "cool" |
| 23:34.41 | burro | its still not clear if end-developers/users will be able to build EFL or X apps on Tizen anyways |
| 23:34.50 | burro | the API seems to be "use HTML5, with soem WAC standard" |
| 23:34.53 | burro | so WebOS all over again |
| 23:35.54 | burro | and JAvascript is pretty damn slow on ARM so not sure what theyre smoking |
| 23:36.50 | burro | Wizzup: its more the interconnected nature of everything, by the time DBus is interacting with the apps the right way, youve recreated most of maemo |
| 23:36.55 | ShadowJK | it's pretty damn slow everywhere? |
| 23:37.57 | burro | and some of the lower DBus / telephony layers are definitely not open source, so who knows how much of the apps or services you would have to rewrite |
| 23:38.00 | burro | just to get a few lousy apps that proably have alternatives |
| 23:39.58 | burro | ShadowJK: the latest revisions of twiwtter/google are slow even on my Atom at 2x2ghz |
| 23:40.05 | burro | so presumably a phone with less horsepower is not going to be too pleasant |
| 23:40.17 | burro | unless using some "App" version which is either stripped down, or written in Obj-C |
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| 23:40.52 | luke-jr | burro: I do have telephony basically working |
| 23:40.59 | burro | interesting |
| 23:41.02 | burro | Ofno i guess |
| 23:41.08 | luke-jr | yes |
| 23:41.09 | luke-jr | 1.0 |
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| 23:42.36 | burro | and GTK/Matchbox for uI, Illume+E17 or what? |
| 23:42.57 | burro | someone said XFCE isnt too bad, im kinda skeptical though |
| 23:44.54 | luke-jr | I use KDE 4.7 |
| 23:46.24 | burro | hah |
| 23:48.27 | Estel_ | well, it seems that just like with motorcars, linux also must have some tune-fanatic, wheel smoking fanboys, in form of gentoo *yawn* |
| 23:48.55 | luke-jr | Estel_: just because you're clueless doesn't make everyone else a fanboy |
| 23:49.06 | Estel_ | I apreciatte every effort of running Debian/arch/whatever on Maemo |
| 23:49.27 | Estel_ | but first of all, it isn't opposite to putting maemo repos into open source git server |
| 23:49.37 | burro | so.. KDE libs, QT libs.. tons of daemons just so i can launch/switch apps? |
| 23:49.43 | Estel_ | so, no need to troll around this concept (directed at luke-jr ) |
| 23:49.48 | luke-jr | burro: hey, it's lighter than Maemo ;) |
| 23:49.50 | burro | ive seen hype about "Plasma Active" or whatever |
| 23:49.52 | burro | true |
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| 23:50.11 | burro | someone hacked dwm to support n900 |
| 23:50.22 | Estel_ | and, personally, I would belive in any 100% usable arch/gentoo/*whatever on N900 only when I see it |
| 23:51.06 | Estel_ | Plasma is damn slow due to inability of accelerating, while plasma literally begs for it or works like a mule |
| 23:51.39 | Estel_ | anyone saying binary blobs afren't problem is either incompetient or liar |
| 23:51.58 | Estel_ | ...unless hes coding genius that hacked everything, which I doubt in case of luke-jr |
| 23:52.28 | Estel_ | Of course everyone is free to waste time on whatever concept she/he want, so eot from my side, I promise ;) |
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