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| 02:51.37 | jonwil | ~seen mohammadag |
| 02:51.39 | infobot | mohammadag is currently on #maemo #harmattan #meego. Has said a total of 5 messages. Is idling for 6h 22m 22s, last said: '~seen stroughtonsmith'. |
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| 02:59.35 | Jef91 | Anyone here ever use the bootmenu? |
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| 09:50.07 | ukl | hello #maemo. to make better use of my phone plan, I'd like to keep track of how many minutes I phoned and messages I sent. There probably is an util for that already? |
| 09:51.54 | user_ | Yes, look in the repositories. |
| 09:53.21 | ukl | actually, I did, and kind of failed. picked "qonso" which is kind of special (for 2 french networks) |
| 09:53.48 | jazedel | try searching for the word "minute" |
| 09:54.06 | ukl | oh minute is a good query... thanks. |
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| 09:54.19 | jazedel | You're welcome. |
| 09:54.28 | ukl | "plan" and "count" were not. |
| 09:54.30 | ukl | :) |
| 09:54.45 | jazedel | Yes. |
| 09:55.24 | ukl | hmm have I loaded the wrong repositories? there's only "sleeper", "a sleep widget to pause the music player..." |
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| 09:55.53 | jazedel | Have you added the testing and devel repositories? |
| 09:56.08 | ukl | missed the testing one...refreshing... |
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| 10:03.50 | ukl | hmm still out of luck, "sleeper" only |
| 10:04.25 | jazedel | I'll have a look. |
| 10:04.45 | ukl | thanks |
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| 10:05.15 | jazedel | No problem. |
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| 10:07.55 | Sicelo | ukl: there is a counter for call duration in the phone application. as for apps, there doesn't seem to be any in the repos (i have devel even) |
| 10:08.10 | Sicelo | perhaps u can search tmo for a script :/ |
| 10:09.13 | ukl | Sicelo: thank you |
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| 10:09.27 | jazedel | Are you sure? I could have sworn I saw an app in the repos that tracks your minutes and data usage. |
| 10:11.33 | ukl | just found "SMSCounter" |
| 10:11.47 | ukl | "displays info about sms and calls between given dates" |
| 10:11.56 | ukl | seems like "call" was the magic word to search for |
| 10:12.32 | jazedel | But you need something to track your minutes. |
| 10:12.48 | ukl | ahem, your right. |
| 10:13.36 | jazedel | I could have sworn there was one there. |
| 10:15.14 | Sicelo | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:17.25 | jazedel | 'Personal Data Plan Monitor' will track your GPRS usage, but there should be something for minute tracking. |
| 10:18.04 | jazedel | s/Data Plan/Dataplan/ |
| 10:19.03 | Sicelo | has that installed |
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| 10:30.53 | jazedel | I can't believe that. I thought we had an app for that. |
| 10:30.58 | jazedel | Sorry. |
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| 10:42.08 | ukl | no problem, thanks for your help |
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| 14:01.05 | vi_____ | ShadowJK: yo |
| 14:01.28 | vi_____ | were you the one wanting to control LEDs (flashlight) from a script with v4l2ctl? |
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| 14:19.21 | Erika | hi |
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| 14:26.20 | jazedal | Hello |
| 14:30.03 | merlin1991 | ~seen arcean |
| 14:30.13 | infobot | arcean <~Arcean@aadb225.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 3d 2h 49m 47s ago, saying: '~malf'. |
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| 14:38.30 | Macer | wow |
| 14:38.38 | Macer | wine and games was so fail :) |
| 14:38.47 | Macer | i wound up just installing win7 |
| 14:38.48 | Erika | i can play diablo 2 in wine |
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| 14:38.53 | Macer | lol |
| 14:39.04 | Macer | WoW plays ok too but i don't like wine |
| 14:39.12 | Macer | rage ran but sound was broken |
| 14:39.19 | Macer | as did nba 2k12 |
| 14:39.46 | Macer | where is my nba2k12 for n900? :/ |
| 14:40.06 | beford | nope, chuck testa |
| 14:40.16 | jazedal | Games are often large, complex, and cut corners. |
| 14:40.49 | Macer | i guess |
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| 14:40.58 | Macer | when done right they look great |
| 14:41.07 | Macer | and done right is usually done in windows |
| 14:41.11 | Erika | opentyrian on n900 is a great game |
| 14:41.12 | ShadowJK | vi_____; not me |
| 14:41.31 | Macer | probably because ms has a pretty traightforward api |
| 14:41.35 | Macer | with dx |
| 14:42.00 | Macer | whereas any concensus on an api for linux is still up in the air |
| 14:42.14 | jazedal | Mostly because Windows has the largest market share. |
| 14:42.34 | jazedal | Not because of their api. |
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| 14:42.49 | Macer | i don't think that is the reason. most games can use a different bin with the same data files to run |
| 14:43.14 | Macer | i think it is because there is no universal api for linux so why bother |
| 14:43.16 | jazedal | The DX API is pretty straightforward, but game companies wouldn't be deterred if linux had the largest market share |
| 14:43.40 | Macer | linux doesnt have the market share due to its lack of such things |
| 14:43.41 | Erika | i liked unreal tournament 2004 because it worked natively on linux |
| 14:43.47 | Erika | if more games used opengl it would be easy to make them cross platfor |
| 14:43.50 | Macer | 2004 ;) |
| 14:44.02 | Erika | yeah it's an old game |
| 14:44.08 | Erika | but you could drive vehicles and kill people |
| 14:44.11 | Macer | there were a few games linux native |
| 14:44.18 | Gh0sty | ut classic was so much better! |
| 14:44.22 | Erika | yeah |
| 14:44.30 | Gh0sty | in ut2k4 the dudes had like a ton of body fat to drag with them :p |
| 14:44.32 | Macer | but i can only imagine the pain it must have been |
| 14:44.52 | Gh0sty | where are the times :/ |
| 14:44.57 | Gh0sty | when I was still gaming! |
| 14:45.03 | Gh0sty | long long time ago :p |
| 14:45.07 | Macer | but linux fails inasmuch that there are no centralized ideas |
| 14:45.20 | Macer | and eventually things turn into dev hissy fits and forks |
| 14:45.40 | Macer | whereas ms just fires people :) |
| 14:45.45 | Gh0sty | and also a lot of devs really should follow a course "user interfaces" |
| 14:45.46 | jazedal | Making a game run on multiple platforms is much more complicated, will have poorer performance, and provide relatively little gain. |
| 14:45.54 | Macer | that don't conform to the common goal lol |
| 14:46.17 | Macer | jazedal: then make the apis cross platform ;) |
| 14:46.29 | Macer | grins |
| 14:46.29 | Macer | dx for linux! |
| 14:46.55 | Macer | or make an api that works with both that kis open sourced |
| 14:47.00 | jazedal | are you going to keep complaining, or wait for responses |
| 14:47.44 | Gh0sty | anyway strangest conversations here |
| 14:47.54 | Gh0sty | you run UT on your cellphone? :p |
| 14:48.24 | Erika | that would be great |
| 14:48.28 | jazedal | Macer: That would require microsoft to make DX support linux |
| 14:48.30 | Erika | i would play UT2004 on a n9 |
| 14:48.33 | Erika | or n900 |
| 14:49.02 | Erika | it's lame they didnt make a pink n900 |
| 14:49.21 | jazedal | You can paint it yourself. |
| 14:49.24 | Macer | i'm not complainig :) |
| 14:49.52 | Macer | Gh0sty: ioquake3 runs ;) |
| 14:49.54 | jazedal | Sure you are, but you need solutions. |
| 14:50.15 | Macer | i thought an opensourced api for both platforms was a good idea for a solution |
| 14:50.27 | Macer | that works cross platform |
| 14:50.30 | Macer | java? :) |
| 14:50.33 | Macer | hides |
| 14:50.36 | jazedal | Open source developers created OpenGL for that purpose. |
| 14:50.48 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 14:51.04 | Macer | opengl is one aspect. but dx provides apis for the entire game |
| 14:51.22 | Macer | audio, video, input, etc. |
| 14:51.40 | Macer | Gh0sty: it runs pretty well too |
| 14:51.55 | Gh0sty | lol |
| 14:52.00 | Macer | wasnt unreal src released? :) |
| 14:52.03 | jazedal | We're all fans of open source, portable software, but the complaints arise when the software we pay for ends up receiving more attention from developers. |
| 14:52.08 | Gh0sty | not sure how the hell I would play quake on my n900 |
| 14:52.54 | ShadowJK | opengl wasn't created by opensource devs ;p |
| 14:52.55 | Macer | Gh0sty: you lean the phone around :) |
| 14:53.06 | Gh0sty | omg |
| 14:53.20 | Macer | ShadowJK: lmao! i didn't want to say it |
| 14:53.24 | Gh0sty | I see myself already double jumping or walldodging with my phone for UT :P |
| 14:53.46 | Macer | i think jumping is assigned to a key |
| 14:53.53 | Gh0sty | booh :p |
| 14:53.58 | Macer | but movement uses the position of the device |
| 14:55.39 | Gh0sty | 15:49 < Erika> it's lame they didnt make a pink n900 |
| 14:55.51 | Gh0sty | yeah that was what nokia was missing! |
| 14:55.55 | Macer | like leaning left and right turns you left and right |
| 14:55.55 | Macer | it actually workded out better th |
| 14:55.56 | Gh0sty | getting it sold to girls! :P |
| 14:55.57 | Macer | an i thought it would |
| 14:56.04 | jazedal | ShadowJK: Macer: OpenGL is open source |
| 14:56.07 | jazedal | http://www.opengl.org/about/overview/ |
| 14:56.31 | Macer | i know |
| 14:56.40 | jazedal | It is developed by open source developers in a non-profit organization. |
| 14:57.03 | Erika | Gh0sty, they made a pink n |
| 14:57.04 | Erika | n9 |
| 14:57.06 | Erika | so i guess they got the idea |
| 14:57.24 | Erika | if my n900 dies one day maybe i'll get a pink n9 |
| 14:57.41 | Gh0sty | there is a pink n9? :o |
| 14:57.54 | Gh0sty | dont want to buy a n9 |
| 14:58.02 | Gh0sty | its a dead platform from the start :( |
| 14:58.04 | Gh0sty | too bad |
| 14:58.46 | Macer | but the statement was "opengl was creatated by open source developers" |
| 14:58.52 | Macer | it was not |
| 14:58.54 | jazedal | With sandpaper, paint, and clearcoat you can recolor your N900. |
| 14:59.00 | Macer | opengl was made by sgi :) |
| 14:59.12 | Macer | anyways.. going back to stuff |
| 14:59.25 | Macer | Erika: they used to sell pink silicon skins |
| 14:59.36 | Erika | yeah but the n900 is already super bulky |
| 14:59.39 | Erika | it makes a huge bulge in my pocket |
| 14:59.51 | Macer | i never thought it was that big |
| 14:59.57 | vi_____ | Erika: that is called a geekboner |
| 14:59.59 | Macer | put a samsung note in your pocket :) |
| 15:00.00 | Erika | the other phones i had before were smaller |
| 15:00.10 | Erika | that one wouldlnt fit i saw it |
| 15:00.15 | Gh0sty | is that an n900 in your pocket or are you just happy to see me ... |
| 15:00.19 | Gh0sty | alas that never happens :( |
| 15:00.24 | Macer | lol. i dont think a note would fit in cargo pants |
| 15:00.28 | vi_____ | you should see the n900 in the otterbox case. |
| 15:00.39 | vi_____ | It is a gargantuan titanobehemoth. |
| 15:00.55 | Gh0sty | otterbox case? |
| 15:01.19 | vi_____ | I just tell myself it is a pocket computer, it is okay for it to be that hoooge. |
| 15:01.24 | Erika | lol |
| 15:01.31 | vi_____ | Gh0sty: otterbox made a case for the n900 |
| 15:01.41 | Erika | you could throw a n900 at someone and knock them unconscious |
| 15:01.46 | vi_____ | vi_____: it is the best one but totally massive. |
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| 15:02.22 | vi_____ | Erika: it is smaller than a netbook... |
| 15:02.30 | Erika | not by much |
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| 15:02.45 | vi_____ | It does not really need a case it is so robust. |
| 15:02.56 | vi_____ | However scratches are a bitch. |
| 15:03.06 | jazedal | How does SGI developing OpenGL mean that it wasn't developed by open source developers? |
| 15:03.13 | Macer | it has a qwerty |
| 15:03.13 | Macer | that makes up for it |
| 15:03.39 | Macer | jazedal: uhm. no comment. i stopped talking about it. |
| 15:04.03 | vi_____ | it is almost 2012, who buys an n900 without knowing EXACTLY what it is? |
| 15:04.04 | jazedal | SGI was an open source software developer itself, as well as all of the developers that contributed to the project. |
| 15:04.16 | Macer | facepalms |
| 15:04.21 | Macer | you're right |
| 15:04.25 | Macer | you win |
| 15:04.46 | Macer | happy? |
| 15:04.48 | Macer | :) |
| 15:04.52 | Erika | didnt they stop producing n900's |
| 15:04.55 | jazedal | Why do you see a difference between a company of operators and a company? |
| 15:05.32 | Macer | i don't. you are correct. you have won. good job. |
| 15:05.40 | Macer | Erika: skype still sells them |
| 15:05.45 | Macer | of all people |
| 15:05.55 | jazedal | Don't make a big deal about it. |
| 15:06.02 | Erika | lol for real |
| 15:06.03 | Macer | they have to get them from somewhere |
| 15:06.14 | Erika | that's pretty weird |
| 15:06.24 | vi_____ | Macer: are you jerking me off? |
| 15:06.35 | Macer | jazedal: you are making a big deal out of it. i gave up 10 mins ago. |
| 15:06.38 | vi_____ | Macer: skype implementation on n900 is shit. |
| 15:06.45 | vi_____ | choppy audio |
| 15:06.49 | Macer | vi_____: uhm. no. i just saw it on their site |
| 15:06.54 | Macer | they sell them |
| 15:06.58 | jazedal | I was merely pointing out that you were wrong, and I was right... |
| 15:07.09 | Macer | good job :) go you! |
| 15:07.25 | Macer | want me to slap you on the ass and give you an attaboy? |
| 15:07.46 | jazedal | :o |
| 15:07.53 | Macer | lmao. the argument wasn't worth the trouble. |
| 15:07.59 | jazedal | I'd rather you not. |
| 15:08.09 | Macer | vi_____: i was teying to buy a mtx handset |
| 15:08.12 | Gh0sty | 16:02 < vi_____> It does not really need a case it is so robust. |
| 15:08.14 | Macer | an extra one |
| 15:08.22 | Gh0sty | dropped my n900 on the stairs at home (wooden stairs) |
| 15:08.27 | Gh0sty | not there is a dent in the stairs |
| 15:08.36 | Gh0sty | and my n900 has nothing :/ |
| 15:08.39 | Macer | and saw n900s |
| 15:08.57 | jazedal | Regardless of the trouble it's worth, I'm satisfied. |
| 15:09.20 | Macer | yay! |
| 15:09.23 | Macer | lol |
| 15:09.30 | Macer | ATTABOY!! |
| 15:09.32 | vi_____ | Gh0sty: heh |
| 15:09.33 | jazedal | Thank you. |
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| 15:10.04 | Gh0sty | the worst one I've seen was one scratched when falling off a motorcycle |
| 15:10.11 | Gh0sty | see if i find that picture back :p |
| 15:10.12 | jazedal | *SmIlE* |
| 15:13.11 | Gh0sty | http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/dsc0373x.jpg/ |
| 15:14.04 | vi_____ | Gh0sty: looks fine |
| 15:14.24 | *** join/#maemo thresh (~popa3d@videolan/developer/thresh) |
| 15:14.29 | vi_____ | I am off to see a dodgy sounding guy to buy a 'broken' n900 for £20 |
| 15:14.33 | jazedal | Good lord, what have you done? |
| 15:14.38 | thresh | hi. does anyone a good client for Ustream on N900? |
| 15:14.41 | jazedal | It's less shiny. |
| 15:14.46 | *** join/#maemo paroneayea (~user@fsf/member/paroneayea) |
| 15:15.04 | vi_____ | we all know they cannot be broken, no matter how chavvy you are. |
| 15:15.32 | Macer | jazedal: not to mention that opengl 3 was total shit |
| 15:15.52 | Macer | which is what happens when it is tossed to open src devs from real company devs |
| 15:15.59 | Macer | hides |
| 15:16.05 | Macer | lmao... gotta go |
| 15:16.27 | Gh0sty | vi_____: according to description: |
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| 15:17.23 | Gh0sty | guy was driving with a scooter, over a speedbump, the n900 escaped his pocket ... rolled over te street and ended against the sidewalk |
| 15:17.37 | Gh0sty | it still worked, however the slider was pretty bad :P |
| 15:17.46 | Gh0sty | and the fact that the screen was dented :) |
| 15:17.57 | jazedal | Macer: I do not disagree. Perhaps projects should have a more disciplined design methodology. |
| 15:18.07 | Macer | calling opengl "something made by open source devs" is like saying the same about solaris |
| 15:18.18 | vi_____ | jazedal: are you on the rag |
| 15:18.20 | vi_____ | ? |
| 15:18.29 | jazedal | As well as a better financial plan. |
| 15:18.30 | vi_____ | are you searching for a gnu fight? |
| 15:19.16 | Gh0sty | opengl was cool |
| 15:19.21 | Macer | opengl was made by a closed company then gtossed to the masses... they were not "open developers" a better analogy would be like calling maemo open src |
| 15:19.25 | Gh0sty | too bad nvidia sort of sidewalked it :( |
| 15:19.29 | Macer | or made by open src devs |
| 15:19.35 | Macer | nokia was anything but :) |
| 15:20.03 | jazedal | OpenGL is open source, maemo is not entirely open source |
| 15:20.44 | Macer | but the developers themselves were not "open src devs" they were sgi devs competing with sun and ibm .. their only incentive was competition |
| 15:20.56 | Macer | money |
| 15:21.55 | Macer | why must all open sourcers believe in this tree huggerness of opensource.. with the exception of the linux kernel.. 99% of good things in the "open" community have been done by companies |
| 15:21.57 | jazedal | As it should be. |
| 15:22.14 | Macer | not "open developers" |
| 15:22.27 | Macer | lol |
| 15:22.50 | Macer | the only thing that keeps open source going is a pay check |
| 15:23.00 | Macer | and that is the harsh reality of it |
| 15:23.24 | jazedal | I believe I alluded to that. |
| 15:23.47 | Macer | no. you simplu said opengl was made by open developers |
| 15:23.53 | Macer | which it was not |
| 15:24.01 | *** join/#maemo Erika (~useless@unaffiliated/erika) |
| 15:24.02 | Macer | it was made by commercial developers |
| 15:24.02 | jazedal | Open development does not necessarily preclude income. |
| 15:24.39 | Macer | i would never consider an ibm or sgi employee an "open developer" |
| 15:25.04 | jazedal | Open development does not mean development for no monetary gain |
| 15:25.10 | Macer | X was xerox :-P |
| 15:25.27 | Macer | blah. anyways. circles. gotta do stuff. |
| 15:25.50 | jazedal | Open source means the source code is available to the end-user, and free software means the software can be copied freely. |
| 15:26.28 | *** join/#maemo vi_____ (~PSleggs@proxy.edinst.com) |
| 15:26.38 | jazedal | That does not preclude the developers from making money from it. |
| 15:28.28 | jazedal | Personally, I find portable, free and open source software ideal, though lacking in support. |
| 15:29.44 | jazedal | That is why I suggest users of FOSS software to consider donating. |
| 15:32.02 | Macer | so you arent going to donate to the sgi developers? |
| 15:32.05 | Macer | wtf? |
| 15:32.08 | jazedal | Almost everyone find FOSS very convenient, but they transfer almost no money into that sector. While spending a great deal on restrictive software, that has taken the lead due to better financials. |
| 15:32.15 | Macer | or xerox? |
| 15:32.23 | Macer | where are the xerox donations? |
| 15:33.07 | Macer | areca released an open driver for their raid cards... do their "open developers" get a donation as well? |
| 15:33.10 | jazedal | Actually, I suggest hiring developers to contribute, or paying for more bandwith on repo servers, etc. |
| 15:34.37 | jazedal | Areca makes money from selling raid cards. |
| 15:34.41 | Macer | true open developers make stuff like... tux based crapware games or apps that are pythonized to death... the real stuff comes from companies |
| 15:35.41 | Macer | and i will never consider a company man a true open developer |
| 15:35.49 | jazedal | The contributions just need monitoring and review. You can pay the reviewers as well. |
| 15:35.51 | Macer | ms releases "open" software as well |
| 15:36.02 | jazedal | However you want your software to be. |
| 15:36.08 | Macer | lol |
| 15:36.12 | jazedal | My final proposition is this: |
| 15:36.23 | Macer | do you consider their developers "open developers" |
| 15:36.26 | Macer | ? |
| 15:36.28 | jazedal | actually |
| 15:36.38 | jazedal | ms releases OS software, but not free software |
| 15:36.48 | Macer | uhm |
| 15:36.59 | Macer | ok.. this is where i stop talking to you |
| 15:37.01 | jazedal | their software is licensed |
| 15:37.15 | Macer | <EOF> |
| 15:37.17 | jazedal | it's not enough to be opensource, it has to be free |
| 15:38.04 | jazedal | Yes, developers who develop open source software are open developers |
| 15:39.16 | jazedal | OS means open source in this context, not operating system. |
| 15:40.28 | jazedal | It's like teaching a monkey how to drive.. |
| 15:41.15 | vi_____ | lol |
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| 15:42.02 | merlin1991 | vi_____: does you client add yet another _ whenever you have nick conflict? |
| 15:42.11 | merlin1991 | the amount of _ in your nick is gettings silly |
| 15:42.26 | merlin1991 | s/gettings/getting/ |
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| 15:49.48 | vi_____ | the ___ represents my e-penis |
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| 15:50.41 | hiemanshu | vi_: awww, the little fella feeling cold tonight? |
| 15:50.42 | hiemanshu | runs |
| 15:50.55 | Pali | ping X-Fade |
| 15:51.01 | vi_ | hiemanshu: lols |
| 15:51.26 | vi_ | who was the guy trying to turn on LED with a shell script using v4l2ctl? |
| 15:52.09 | Pali | ~seen X-Fade |
| 15:52.19 | infobot | x-fade is currently on #maemo #harmattan #meego. Has said a total of 42 messages. Is idling for 24m 57s, last said: 'djszapi: The possibility of people complaining :)'. |
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| 16:25.42 | esaym153 | dang it, I disabled some services from starting at boot time on my n810 and now when I try to turn it on, it just stays at the nokia loading screen. Is there anyway that I can boot it into a safe more or something or some way to mount its internal flash to another computer so I can undo what I did? |
| 16:26.38 | jazedal | No. |
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| 16:27.24 | esaym153 | anything at all that I can do? other than completly reflash it? |
| 16:27.36 | jazedal | No. |
| 16:28.25 | jazedal | I believe I've heard of a boot menu, but if you haven't set that up, and I imagine if you did, you wouldn't be asking, then the only known recourse is to reflash. |
| 16:28.34 | esaym153 | crap |
| 16:29.39 | jazedal | I make lists of packages I like, and record configuration changes I've made, so I can recover as easily as possible. |
| 16:32.00 | jazedal | I recommend you do the same. |
| 16:33.13 | esaym153 | any quick links to how to reflash? |
| 16:34.07 | jazedal | Sure, one moment. |
| 16:34.32 | jazedal | http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware |
| 16:35.13 | jazedal | on windows it boils down to downloading the flasher, downloading the image, and flashing the image to the device. |
| 16:35.54 | jazedal | Don't bother flashing the eMMC (i.e. MyDocs), as only the rootfs is corrupt. |
| 16:36.25 | jazedal | What operating system do you have? |
| 16:41.25 | esaym153 | jazedal: I don't know. I think it was the latest diablo one |
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| 16:42.56 | jazedal | I'm referring to your PC operating system. |
| 16:43.12 | jazedal | esaym153: ^ |
| 16:43.37 | esaym153 | jazedal: oh, linux. debian testing or squeeze |
| 16:44.27 | jazedal | debian testing is nicknamed wheezy, squeeze is the stable |
| 16:44.52 | jazedal | Either way, I haven't flashed from linux. |
| 16:46.08 | jazedal | I just remembered you said you had an N810, I assume you followed the link to the correct wiki article. |
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| 16:46.44 | esaym153 | yea |
| 16:47.20 | jazedal | Good. |
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| 16:48.38 | RST38h | Moo all |
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| 16:53.13 | Macer | RST38h: hey! |
| 16:53.22 | Macer | how are things?? |
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| 16:54.30 | jazedal | I imagine things are pretty boring as a cow. |
| 16:54.59 | Pali | ~seen X-Fade |
| 16:55.01 | infobot | x-fade is currently on #maemo #harmattan #meego. Has said a total of 51 messages. Is idling for 28m 38s, last said: '*his'. |
| 16:55.05 | esaym153 | there is nothing like this for the n810: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd ? |
| 16:56.32 | jazedal | I don't use an N810. I'm afraid I won't be of much help. |
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| 16:56.55 | DocScrutinizer51 | moo |
| 16:58.20 | Pali | ping DocScrutinizer |
| 16:58.37 | DocScrutinizer51 | Pali: pong |
| 16:58.49 | Pali | Nokia now send new version of bq2415x driver to LKML: https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/12/5/574 |
| 16:58.55 | jazedal | Good lord, there's more of them. |
| 17:00.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | Pali: I don't think their general concept and idea of a driver for bq2715x changed |
| 17:00.53 | Pali | yes, I agree with you |
| 17:01.06 | DocScrutinizer51 | it's userland centric aka designed to fit bme |
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| 17:01.35 | Pali | no, concept of this driver is working without userland |
| 17:01.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | while I'd prefer a design that basically obsoletes bme |
| 17:01.59 | *** part/#maemo b1ackdeath (b1ackdeath@nat/redhat/x-husomxqyqvgpxkty) |
| 17:02.08 | Pali | but it is again without boost support or someting else |
| 17:02.42 | DocScrutinizer51 | omg |
| 17:03.21 | RST38h | Macer: lively |
| 17:03.38 | RST38h | Macer: Watching violent clashes with police, over internet |
| 17:04.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | all our base are belong to evil Nokia |
| 17:04.12 | DocScrutinizer51 | :-:p |
| 17:04.25 | DocScrutinizer51 | Nokia seems to feel extremely uncomfortable to give full control over bq2715x to user |
| 17:05.56 | RST38h | prolly afraid of you blowing up the battery |
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| 17:06.03 | Pali | yes, I belive that maintainers of trees where will be that driver accept future changes/driver replace :-) (when nokia finish their implementation) |
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| 17:23.38 | DocScrutinizer | actually all drivers written by Nokia, that I have reviewed so far, are well written for what actually *is* written - each single one missed quite a bit or even a lot of support for the managed chip's comprehensive set of capabilities. lis302: no highpass/differential filter mode&settings, this no proper IRQ for arbitrary movements. LP5523: half of the program storage memory is not supported, 30% of opcodes not documented neither used. Now |
| 17:23.39 | DocScrutinizer | bq2415x: seems Nokia is determined to hide the fact that the chip has an own controller that is well capable of doing most of bme's job |
| 17:25.31 | Pali | DocScrutinizer, you can write this to that LKML thread too |
| 17:25.37 | DocScrutinizer | the maximum weird thing about LP553: it's been designed by Nokia! |
| 17:27.42 | jonwil | whyat is lis302 and LP5523? |
| 17:27.50 | Pali | DocScrutinizer, do you know how BME calculate battery percentage? |
| 17:28.11 | SpeedEvil | Nobody does. |
| 17:28.32 | RST38h | rather easy to find empirically |
| 17:28.38 | SpeedEvil | It's not. |
| 17:28.52 | Pali | I asked this one of BME author |
| 17:28.57 | RST38h | the power monitor application shows both the charge and the voltage, so just tabulate the data and find function |
| 17:29.29 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 17:29.33 | Pali | Answer: "Capacity calculations are mainly based on coulomb counter readings plus battery discharge curve." |
| 17:29.40 | Pali | so nothing usefull |
| 17:29.58 | SpeedEvil | The intention should be something like 'with the current battery state, including estimated ESR, what is the point at which with the maximum cellmo load, the cellmo will drop out', compared to the total capacity |
| 17:30.08 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: lis302:accelmeter, LP5523:9chan-LED driver |
| 17:30.56 | jonwil | ok |
| 17:31.09 | DocScrutinizer | RST38h: BS, that assumes there's a simple arithmetic algo in bme doing that, or a table lookup in a 2D-table |
| 17:31.42 | SpeedEvil | BME certainly seems to notice ESR - somehow. |
| 17:31.43 | DocScrutinizer | it's probably not exactly that simple |
| 17:31.58 | SpeedEvil | And the above - temperature probably matters too |
| 17:32.03 | DocScrutinizer | somehow, yes. By detecting delta-V |
| 17:32.19 | RST38h | Doc:and there is none? |
| 17:32.23 | esaym153 | what is the "Swap" button on the n810? |
| 17:34.09 | DocScrutinizer | extremely simple test: stop bme, wait 3 minutes with display on, start dme -> "WTF?! my battery dropped from 80% to 20%???!" |
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| 17:34.29 | DocScrutinizer | bme* |
| 17:34.57 | DocScrutinizer | hardly to explain by a 2D-table lookup |
| 17:35.37 | DocScrutinizer | or any polinom |
| 17:35.48 | DocScrutinizer | poly* |
| 17:39.13 | DocScrutinizer | my suspicion: bme stores "last seen bat voltage" to CAL, so it will survive even system reboots. What it forgets to store (as there is no reliable source for it): the timestamp for this vltage reading. So stop bme, wait a bit, start bme and it goes "duh, the battery droped nnn uV since last test - must be geeting empty now, so lemme reduce percentage of charge to match the situation" |
| 17:40.19 | DocScrutinizer | getting* |
| 17:41.49 | SpeedEvil | Not implausible. |
| 17:43.13 | jonwil | hmmm, interesting, BME uses dsmesock_* to talk to dsme |
| 17:44.17 | Pali | jonwil: you can use ltrace application to see all library calls |
| 17:44.23 | jonwil | yeah |
| 17:45.34 | DocScrutinizer | btw 9h of 2.5G with xchat on ~10 chan, with occasional 5min of use, and a shell script (bq27200.sh 5) running all the time in background, depleted my battery from 100 to 25%, according to bq27200 |
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| 17:47.18 | Erika | DocScrutinizer, i wish i could get that long out of my battery lol |
| 17:47.51 | SpeedEvil | That's a bit steep |
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| 17:52.00 | jonwil | ok, so guys, if you run hal-device bme on the phone, which field(s) are the ones that you are talking about here? |
| 17:52.08 | jonwil | battery.charge_level.percentage? |
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| 17:52.45 | jonwil | ? |
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| 18:09.23 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, probably. Though I most recently talked about percentage in output of bq27200.sh |
| 18:11.07 | jonwil | does bq27200.sh talk to BME in any way or is it pulling data from the hardware directly?> |
| 18:11.48 | jonwil | People were talking about algorithms in BME and I want to know exactly which of the pieces of data returned by BME is the one people want to know more about |
| 18:13.07 | ShadowJK | bq27200.sh doesn't talk to bme |
| 18:13.19 | jonwil | ok |
| 18:13.25 | ShadowJK | Though I have a script somewhere that talks to both, and displays it side by side. |
| 18:14.26 | ShadowJK | "Capacity calculations are mainly based on coulomb counter readings plus battery discharge curve." <- from watching bme output, this seems correct. The devil is in the details, though. |
| 18:14.48 | ShadowJK | esaym153, the one that brings up the list of open apps |
| 18:16.54 | jonwil | ok, so the "details" you speak of come from the algorithm in BME used to calculate whatever battery.charge_level.percentage returns? |
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| 18:19.03 | ShadowJK | Well, percentage is probably calculated from remaining capacity and "design" capacity |
| 18:19.31 | ShadowJK | I think it just uses coulomb counting, and adjusts the sum whenever voltage profile is off |
| 18:19.46 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: whatever bme does, it's nothing we'd like to learn from ;-D |
| 18:20.10 | jonwil | ok |
| 18:20.12 | ShadowJK | Probably the main issue is that it doesn't have a reliable "The battery has this many mAh when full" metric |
| 18:20.32 | jonwil | so there are no secrets in BME that we need to know? |
| 18:20.41 | DocScrutinizer | not really |
| 18:20.47 | ShadowJK | nope |
| 18:20.48 | jonwil | ok |
| 18:21.27 | DocScrutinizer | there are secrets in bme that better stay secret til the end of times though |
| 18:21.54 | jonwil | like what? |
| 18:22.07 | DocScrutinizer | or at least until nobody could find out who's a child's child of the coder that coded that crap |
| 18:22.59 | DocScrutinizer | like e.g why bme is talking/reading to/from a register 0x44 of a chip that has registers 0x00 til 0x05 |
| 18:23.52 | Pali | bug :D |
| 18:24.04 | DocScrutinizer | obviously |
| 18:24.26 | DocScrutinizer | I lterally *see* the sourcecode that causes such bugs |
| 18:24.39 | Pali | or has nokia "special" chips in n900? |
| 18:24.44 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
| 18:25.39 | DocScrutinizer | they just mirror the registers until and of 7bit addr space, as all I2C chips do |
| 18:25.51 | DocScrutinizer | s/and/end/ |
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| 18:26.36 | Pali | BME - buffer overflow and bugs... |
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| 18:31.28 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: you don't want to RE that shit, believe me |
| 18:31.38 | jonwil | ok |
| 18:31.43 | DocScrutinizer | the more RE you do, the less sense it all makes |
| 18:32.26 | ShadowJK | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/bqvsbme.png bme vs bq27200. bq27200 output has been rescaled to the range 0-100%. |
| 18:33.01 | ShadowJK | No charging takes place on the right half of the graph, yet bme adjusts itself upwards a few times |
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| 18:33.25 | Pali | how to do it easy? |
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| 18:41.14 | Venemo | ~seen pupnik |
| 18:41.29 | infobot | pupnik <PugVader@p54B29D69.dip.t-dialin.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 67d 18h 50m 43s ago, saying: 'tegra chipset?'. |
| 18:41.38 | Venemo | lol |
| 18:42.36 | DocScrutinizer | lol? |
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| 18:47.41 | Pali | ping X-Fade |
| 18:48.37 | Pali | ~seen X-Fade |
| 18:48.38 | infobot | x-fade is currently on #maemo #harmattan #meego. Has said a total of 51 messages. Is idling for 2h 22m 15s, last said: '*his'. |
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| 18:50.27 | DocScrutinizer | ~botsnack |
| 18:50.27 | infobot | aw, gee, DocScrutinizer |
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| 19:39.32 | luke-jr | does Maemo really need CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED? |
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| 20:32.01 | DocScrutinizer | WTF is CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED? |
| 20:32.10 | DocScrutinizer | sysfs is deprecated? |
| 20:32.45 | SpeedEvil | In future, all configuration is done through pulseaudio. which is now required in the kernel. |
| 20:33.28 | DocScrutinizer | silently shoots himself |
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| 20:36.45 | nox- | haha |
| 20:37.05 | nox- | but yeah whats the sucessor to /sys ? |
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| 20:40.09 | derf | DocScrutinizer: It enables or disables certain deprecated _features_ of the sysfs layout. Not all of sysfs itself. |
| 20:41.00 | DocScrutinizer | pfooooh |
| 20:41.20 | DocScrutinizer | takes a deep breath |
| 20:45.38 | DocScrutinizer | God, horrorshow is my life - in TV DrHouse butchers his own leg, here somebody butchers my linux world, and tomorrow ClearCase does the rest to my brain |
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| 21:46.52 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: old udev requires CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED; new udev won't work with it |
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| 22:01.43 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: thanks for clarifying |
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| 22:02.09 | luke-jr | ponders |
| 22:02.18 | luke-jr | considers trying to kexec… |
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| 22:10.47 | Macer | HI! |
| 22:10.52 | Macer | huh? |
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| 22:16.33 | NIN101 | kexec and maemo != friends, unfortanly |
| 22:20.42 | Pali | I was not able to use kexec - it did not worked |
| 22:21.01 | Pali | (on maemo with or without kernel-power) |
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| 22:22.26 | NIN101 | it worked for me with meego kernels. kexecing meego kernels with meego-kernels worked, kexecing kernel-power from another distri using meego-kernel didn't really work (it basically died on booting). |
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| 22:34.50 | Berlinermauer | My Nokia N900 complains that i dont have enough Application Space for the Kernel Update |
| 22:35.13 | Berlinermauer | but if I look how much "Application Space" there is, it is about 200mb |
| 22:35.16 | Berlinermauer | isn't that enough? |
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| 22:49.23 | luke-jr | sigh! |
| 22:49.33 | luke-jr | who maintains power kernel anyhwo? |
| 22:49.49 | merlin1991 | doesn't Pali do that? |
| 22:50.20 | luke-jr | Pali: poke |
| 22:51.59 | Pali | luke-jr: kexec does not working with kernel-power or stock |
| 22:52.40 | Pali | in kp and last PR1.3 stock kernel are kexec pacthes but I was not able to boot anything with kexec |
| 22:54.18 | luke-jr | Pali: I want to build kernel-power. |
| 22:55.15 | luke-jr | Pali: but I can't figure out how to patch it up |
| 22:55.35 | luke-jr | Pali: the patches in the kernel-power sources don't apply to vanilla 2.6.28, nor to fremantle 2.6.28 |
| 22:55.43 | luke-jr | Pali: so … what's it based on? XD |
| 22:56.01 | Pali | they apply to vanilla |
| 22:56.16 | Pali | kp tree has all nokia patches |
| 22:56.38 | Pali | download tarball 2.6.28 from kernel.org or from repository.maemo.org |
| 22:57.06 | luke-jr | Pali: they don't, though :/ |
| 22:57.18 | Pali | see: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71879 |
| 22:57.20 | luke-jr | the first one to modify EXTRAVERSION in Makefile expects "-power" already there |
| 22:57.51 | Pali | see TMO, here is how to compile |
| 22:58.08 | luke-jr | I don't use Debian. |
| 22:58.50 | Pali | uff, build scripts depends on scratchbox or madde |
| 22:59.02 | luke-jr | much less those >_< |
| 22:59.08 | luke-jr | I just want to apply patches and build myself |
| 22:59.35 | Pali | but see TMO, "Compiling 0. Download source code from git repository" |
| 22:59.50 | Pali | this needs only git & tar |
| 23:00.07 | luke-jr | but doesn't seem to apply the patches? |
| 23:00.17 | Pali | patches are quit type |
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| 23:00.39 | Pali | so you can you quilt or manully apply with patch -p1 -i |
| 23:00.51 | luke-jr | yes, but the problem is they *don't* just apply on vanilla :/ |
| 23:01.11 | Pali | it must apply, I tested it... |
| 23:01.21 | Pali | wait, I will try again |
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| 23:03.41 | luke-jr | Pali: I'm somewhat confused about the patches outside the patches/ dir tho |
| 23:04.19 | Pali | all patches are here: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=kernel-power;a=tree;f=kernel-power-2.6.28/debian/patches |
| 23:04.28 | Pali | see series file for order |
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| 23:06.04 | Pali | Tested, all patches applyied without problem |
| 23:06.08 | Pali | tarball: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.28.tar.gz |
| 23:06.20 | Pali | $ for file in `cat patches/series`; do patch -p1 -i patches/$file; done |
| 23:06.46 | luke-jr | I'm trying to build rev b4c9704d93d4a648d2fefccda89737040828429b |
| 23:06.51 | Pali | luke-jr: I do not see any problem |
| 23:07.01 | luke-jr | it's getting stuck at armthumb.diff now |
| 23:07.23 | DocScrutinizer | THUMB-WHAT? |
| 23:07.37 | Pali | b4c9704d93d4a648d2fefccda89737040828429b is old version |
| 23:07.45 | luke-jr | Hunk #1 FAILED at 90. |
| 23:07.51 | Pali | try HEAD |
| 23:07.53 | luke-jr | Pali: it's the current stable kernel-power |
| 23:08.01 | luke-jr | newer kernel-power bricks my device |
| 23:08.02 | Pali | current stable is v49 |
| 23:08.20 | DocScrutinizer | what's that thumb shit? |
| 23:08.37 | DocScrutinizer | please don't tell me now PK also tries using thunb stuff |
| 23:09.09 | luke-jr | Pali: apt says it's v42 |
| 23:09.17 | DocScrutinizer | we had a rather lengthy not yet finished discussion regarding thumb on N900 CPU, over in #maemo-ssu |
| 23:09.41 | DocScrutinizer | I'm still claiming thumb is broken in silicon, on N900 |
| 23:09.45 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: armthumb.diff is ARM errata: Stale prediction on replaced interworking branch |
| 23:09.51 | Pali | luke-jr: X-Fade still not filed problem with apt |
| 23:10.00 | Pali | what is it? |
| 23:10.04 | luke-jr | Pali: ? |
| 23:10.06 | Pali | I will look at it |
| 23:11.01 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: yeah, there are supposedly patches for thumb silicon errata, but seems they just don't clean up all the pieces |
| 23:11.33 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: I don't really care about thumb, I just want to get this kernel to go :P |
| 23:11.34 | DocScrutinizer | though freemangordon is still "not buying it" |
| 23:11.56 | Pali | luke-jr, only last kp versions has normal patch series |
| 23:12.25 | luke-jr | Pali: if it bricks my device, do I get a warranty? :P |
| 23:12.30 | Pali | I cannot help you with building older versions |
| 23:13.17 | Pali | I had problems too, so I modified a lot of debian/rules parts |
| 23:13.42 | luke-jr | :/ |
| 23:13.58 | luke-jr | Pali: btw, is there a normal kernel git repo you guys use? |
| 23:14.05 | luke-jr | ie, with kernel source, not patches |
| 23:14.29 | Pali | what do you mean with kernel source? |
| 23:14.42 | Pali | only this kernel-power with patch series |
| 23:15.07 | Pali | but you can use only some patches |
| 23:15.20 | luke-jr | Pali: like a git clone of Linus's tree |
| 23:15.25 | Pali | no |
| 23:15.50 | Pali | you can detele all patches expect "nokia-*.diff" |
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| 23:15.59 | Pali | and you get stock kernel |
| 23:17.05 | luke-jr | oh wow, I got a commit hash collision that forces git to use longer short-hash |
| 23:17.22 | luke-jr | Pali: know about this bugfix applied to your git tree after v49? is it important? |
| 23:17.48 | Pali | which bugfix? |
| 23:18.10 | luke-jr | Fixed bug when device restarts instead of shutdown when a charger is attached |
| 23:18.13 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: that's where PaulFertser almost did a rm -r * on hostmode stuff - powerkernel is a mess |
| 23:19.04 | luke-jr | ? |
| 23:19.13 | DocScrutinizer | no cvs, svc, or git at all |
| 23:19.15 | Pali | luke-jr: this problem reported more users on TMO and freemangordon wrote patch |
| 23:19.19 | DocScrutinizer | svn |
| 23:20.13 | Pali | I'm using this patch and no problem... |
| 23:20.17 | DocScrutinizer | so no bisect either |
| 23:20.28 | Pali | ask freemangordon about it |
| 23:20.40 | DocScrutinizer | hides |
| 23:20.44 | luke-jr | Pali: what happens if I leave it out? |
| 23:20.52 | Pali | DocScrutinizer: you can disable some patches |
| 23:20.53 | DocScrutinizer | nuttin bad |
| 23:21.07 | Pali | you get actual kp v49 version |
| 23:21.43 | DocScrutinizer | there's some strange shit in kernel that got triggered by hostmode patches |
| 23:22.09 | luke-jr | worst case scenario, I have to shutdown twice? O.o |
| 23:22.24 | luke-jr | Pali: would you like to make fcam built-in to power-kernel? |
| 23:22.33 | DocScrutinizer | if you leave out freemango's patch, you'll see strange beahviour on shutdown, startup - when charger attached |
| 23:23.11 | Pali | luke-jr: I'm not using fcam, so I cannot test it if it works |
| 23:23.27 | luke-jr | Pali: me either! :D |
| 23:23.34 | DocScrutinizer | Neither |
| 23:23.43 | luke-jr | I just know applying it doesn't break normal use |
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| 23:27.08 | luke-jr | Pali: dspbridge.diff has a questionable hack… care for a proper fix? >_< |
| 23:27.21 | luke-jr | do you know if whoever did it can confirm it's sane?\ |
| 23:28.46 | Pali | what? |
| 23:28.51 | luke-jr | looks like freemangordon wrote it |
| 23:29.12 | luke-jr | he just yanked out the "#elif TARGET_ENDIANNESS_DIFFERS(TARGET_BIG_ENDIAN)" scenario entirely |
| 23:29.18 | luke-jr | I presume because it wouldn't compile |
| 23:29.39 | luke-jr | I have (I think) a proper fix for it |
| 23:30.38 | Pali | ok |
| 23:31.32 | Pali | sorry, but now I'm going sleep |
| 23:31.43 | luke-jr | … |
| 23:31.45 | Pali | send me mail |
| 23:45.43 | FIQ | osso-caluclator |
| 23:45.44 | FIQ | yaay |
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| 23:47.01 | jonwil | ~seen mohammadag |
| 23:47.06 | infobot | mohammadag is currently on #maemo (7h 44m 22s) #harmattan (7h 44m 22s) #meego (7h 44m 22s), last said: '~seen stroughtonsmith'. |
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