| 00:08.27 | *** join/#maemo joga (OvijSYZG@rikki.fi) |
| 00:09.35 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
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| 00:25.31 | jonwil | bah, I accidentally deleted my "n900 stuff to do" list :( |
| 00:26.51 | pronto | :( |
| 00:27.21 | jonwil | I remember most of what was on it |
| 00:27.25 | jonwil | so that's not a problem |
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| 00:35.10 | jonwil | oooh good, I found most of the stuff on a pastebin paste :) |
| 01:08.51 | merlin1991 | jonwil: did you actively search for it? |
| 01:09.03 | jonwil | yes I searched for the missing info |
| 01:09.05 | jonwil | why? |
| 01:09.16 | merlin1991 | just wondering |
| 01:10.42 | DocScrutinizer | WTF? |
| 01:10.51 | DocScrutinizer | ~factinfo scrutinizing |
| 01:10.51 | infobot | scrutinizing -- created by jabis <~jabis@alpha.pumppumedia.com> 1h 25m 15s ago; last modified 1h 16m 39s ago by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 3 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 41s ago; it has been locked by DocScrutinizer. |
| 01:11.07 | mr_jrt | Anyone else having issues with drop.maemo.org? |
| 01:11.16 | DocScrutinizer | ~scrutinizing |
| 01:11.16 | infobot | [scrutinizing] what DocScrutinizer does after eating some datasheets for breakfast |
| 01:11.33 | DocScrutinizer | ~scrutinizing |
| 01:11.33 | infobot | [scrutinizing] what DocScrutinizer does after eating some datasheets for breakfast |
| 01:11.47 | merlin1991 | what IS drop.maemo.org? |
| 01:11.53 | DocScrutinizer | aah, [2011-11-11 00:46:29] |
| 01:12.26 | mr_jrt | Used for uploading to extras-devel |
| 01:12.28 | DocScrutinizer | errr, some place to drop project sources for buildhost? |
| 01:12.44 | merlin1991 | I've always used the assistant :D |
| 01:12.48 | mr_jrt | ...and in this case, used for git access to my garage project |
| 01:12.50 | DocScrutinizer | too |
| 01:13.10 | merlin1991 | GET LOST APT-WORKER |
| 01:13.15 | DocScrutinizer | LOL |
| 01:13.39 | merlin1991 | srly what the fuck does he do now? ham just updated the package list and read the dependencies |
| 01:13.50 | mr_jrt | Hmm. Seems I can't get talk.maemo.org either. |
| 01:14.01 | DocScrutinizer | and apt-worker redoes all that again and again |
| 01:14.05 | mr_jrt | ...nor indeed the garage. |
| 01:14.06 | merlin1991 | tmo works for me |
| 01:14.47 | mr_jrt | Hmm |
| 01:14.48 | DocScrutinizer | tmo is fast like lightning here |
| 01:14.59 | merlin1991 | garage is up too |
| 01:15.00 | DocScrutinizer | relatively |
| 01:15.01 | *** join/#maemo arvut (~arvut@unaffiliated/arvut) |
| 01:15.14 | DocScrutinizer | load balancing at akamai |
| 01:15.22 | DocScrutinizer | ? |
| 01:15.42 | DocScrutinizer | or does this not even apply to tmo? |
| 01:16.20 | DocScrutinizer | halley:~ # host talk.maemo.org |
| 01:16.22 | DocScrutinizer | talk.maemo.org is an alias for forums.internettablettalk.com. |
| 01:16.23 | DocScrutinizer | forums.internettablettalk.com has address 74.86.202.247 |
| 01:16.51 | mr_jrt | Yeah...for some reason I can't resolve the DNS |
| 01:16.56 | mr_jrt | :( |
| 01:17.03 | DocScrutinizer | yeah THEN.... |
| 01:17.23 | DocScrutinizer | XXX-rated |
| 01:17.36 | DocScrutinizer | ;-P |
| 01:21.02 | mr_jrt | Weird...it's just the maemo domains. |
| 01:21.54 | merlin1991 | it's scheme |
| 01:22.06 | merlin1991 | nokia is disabling the dns entires region by region! ;) |
| 01:27.37 | mr_jrt | It's definately asking nokia's nameservers :S - Anyone care to flush their cache and try for me? |
| 01:36.46 | jonwil | bah, if I start nokia-maps from a command line, it wont display any UI. Which means I cant strace the damn thing' |
| 01:38.13 | SpeedEvil | strace -p |
| 01:38.25 | jonwil | except that I need to strace it right when it first loads |
| 01:38.34 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 01:38.37 | jonwil | before it even opens any files |
| 01:38.45 | jonwil | so I can find out every map-related file it opens |
| 01:38.50 | mr_jrt | Hmmm :) It's anything on nokia's nameservers that has stopped working. At least it's not just maemo ;) How weird. |
| 01:39.00 | SpeedEvil | jonwil: Aren't all the maps in the cache dir? |
| 01:39.09 | jonwil | I know where the map files are |
| 01:39.12 | SpeedEvil | you're not trying to RE the map ormat? |
| 01:39.29 | jonwil | well trying to find where and how the railway stations get drawn on the map |
| 01:39.35 | SpeedEvil | Why? |
| 01:40.11 | jonwil | I want to modify the Nokia Maps HTML and use the Google GTFS data my transit operator makes available to print bus stops and related info on the map |
| 01:40.26 | mr_jrt | Changing my mtu to something else and back again seems to have fixed it....:S |
| 01:40.28 | jonwil | since no maemo mapping program can use such information |
| 01:40.50 | SpeedEvil | Nokia maps html? |
| 01:41.12 | jonwil | Nokia maps uses a browser widget to render |
| 01:41.12 | jonwil | and a large index.html file |
| 01:41.29 | jonwil | someone already extended said html file as a project called nokia-maps-extras |
| 01:46.05 | jonwil | you follow? |
| 01:52.03 | SpeedEvil | Hmm |
| 02:07.37 | *** part/#maemo DrGrov (~C.J@a91-153-77-41.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 02:09.55 | *** join/#maemo chrissbx (~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 02:10.21 | chrissbx | Hello. I'm looking for an alarm clock that can play mp3s, or fm radio. |
| 02:11.33 | chrissbx | I've been searching around for an hour now; flip clock just doesn't work (doesn't even appear anymore); the builtin clock of the n800 doesn't seem to have any alarm at all; |
| 02:11.52 | chrissbx | and all the fm radio and internet radio alarm clock project ideas seem to never have gotten anywhere; |
| 02:12.26 | chrissbx | and the suggestion to use "alarmed" doesn't help me as the program manager doesn't find it. |
| 02:12.39 | chrissbx | Any ideas? |
| 02:13.05 | DocScrutinizer | err, the alarm on diablo wasn't that bad, had even a method to select arbitrary mp3 files to play for alarm sound. Just it stopped alarm too early |
| 02:13.46 | *** join/#maemo jeverling (~quassel@jeverling.de) |
| 02:13.52 | chrissbx | I'm running the 2008 OS, I think; what's diablo? |
| 02:14.08 | DocScrutinizer | chrissbx: anyeay you should make clear you're talking about diablo, not fremantle. Not very usual here nowadays |
| 02:14.20 | DocScrutinizer | OS2008 == diablo |
| 02:14.33 | chrissbx | k, what's the newest that can be run on the n800? |
| 02:14.43 | DocScrutinizer | err diablo |
| 02:14.44 | chrissbx | or, best |
| 02:14.55 | chrissbx | well, then no alarm clock I guess. |
| 02:14.57 | DocScrutinizer | with CSSU updtaes maybe |
| 02:15.06 | DocScrutinizer | there is alarms in clock |
| 02:15.14 | chrissbx | Hm. |
| 02:15.38 | chrissbx | ah in the menu (hm I'm stupid) |
| 02:15.47 | chrissbx | (I haven't used the device for years) |
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| 02:25.22 | chrissbx | Now if there only were a way to use the fm radio. |
| 02:25.30 | chrissbx | As an alarm. |
| 02:26.26 | chrissbx | I'd even accept crontab for myself, but this is for a buddy who doesn't know any commandline stuff. |
| 02:29.34 | *** join/#maemo jeverling (~quassel@jeverling.de) |
| 02:31.33 | chrissbx | Hm somehow the diablo clock doesn't even work. I've set alarms twice now, 2' in the future, then 10' in the future, and neither has done anything. |
| 02:32.09 | chrissbx | Well I guess I'll just give up, he was interested in fm radio alarm anyway. |
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| 02:44.53 | DocScrutinizer | I think there's not even a generic fm-radio alarm on N900 |
| 02:45.29 | DocScrutinizer | a *good* alarm clock still was a nice project |
| 02:46.02 | DocScrutinizer | for N8x0 it is an ideal project |
| 02:46.02 | *** join/#maemo jeverling (~quassel@jeverling.de) |
| 02:46.25 | DocScrutinizer | well scratch the "fm-" for N810 ;-) |
| 02:52.52 | luke-jr | a *working* alarm clock would be nice :/ |
| 02:53.13 | luke-jr | N900 Maemo only works when it isn't important -.- |
| 02:54.00 | SpeedEvil | I find my n900 alarm quite reliable. |
| 02:55.15 | luke-jr | I find it reliable for work meetings that I can afford to forget |
| 02:55.22 | luke-jr | I find it never works overnight when I need to wake up. |
| 02:55.38 | luke-jr | sleep-state related? shrug |
| 02:56.19 | DocScrutinizer | related to alarm time limited to 60s or sth |
| 02:56.29 | luke-jr | O.o |
| 02:56.33 | DocScrutinizer | insane |
| 02:56.38 | Macer | lmao. wow. battery-eye has my battery going like -10% |
| 02:56.39 | Macer | ice |
| 02:56.41 | Macer | nice too |
| 02:57.17 | merlin1991 | I dunno when I set an allarm on the n900 I'm up within the first 2 to 3 notes |
| 02:57.21 | DocScrutinizer | battery-eye seems thoroughly fsckd up |
| 02:58.01 | Macer | i don't think so because advanced power is also giving me awkward results on this battery |
| 02:58.11 | Macer | the same results battery-eye is using |
| 02:58.33 | Macer | where the applet turns red... the red led turns on... but the n900 stays on for over an hour longer during high use |
| 02:58.47 | Macer | it could be because the first couple of days i was swapping out 2 different batteries |
| 02:59.14 | DocScrutinizer | oh well, check lshal|grep batt |
| 02:59.47 | luke-jr | merlin1991: well, the problem is mine doesn't *go off* until I wake it up some other way |
| 03:00.06 | SpeedEvil | Mine even wakes up from off. |
| 03:00.41 | merlin1991 | is feeling brave |
| 03:00.44 | merlin1991 | doing the ota upgrade |
| 03:00.46 | DocScrutinizer | that'd be damn sad if it wouldn't |
| 03:02.02 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: that sounds extemely convenient and just what I'd expect from an alarm clock |
| 03:02.24 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: not so convenient when it could mean your baby starves to death |
| 03:02.52 | SpeedEvil | Babies tend to have inbuilt alarms. |
| 03:02.58 | DocScrutinizer | errr how would that happen? |
| 03:02.58 | luke-jr | ended up getting an old fashoned alarm |
| 03:03.02 | luke-jr | SpeedEvil: this one didn't. |
| 03:03.06 | SpeedEvil | Ah. :/ |
| 03:03.16 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: all the information there matches the advanced power applet as well as batter eye and the widget |
| 03:03.19 | Macer | :) |
| 03:03.24 | DocScrutinizer | aaah go *off* |
| 03:03.26 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: I set alarm to wake me up to feed her in 3 hours. It doesn't go off. She sleeps through the night way too young. |
| 03:03.28 | Macer | maybe it just needs more "training" |
| 03:03.32 | DocScrutinizer | sorry my english is poor |
| 03:03.41 | Macer | also.. where do i lower the power of the wifi? |
| 03:03.59 | Macer | isn't there an option to change its power? |
| 03:04.12 | luke-jr | she's a little piggy now (a year later) tho :p |
| 03:04.14 | SpeedEvil | Lowering power will almost never change it. |
| 03:04.20 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: wifi network settings advanced |
| 03:04.21 | SpeedEvil | Uage |
| 03:04.26 | luke-jr | but next baby, I ain't trusting the N900… |
| 03:04.28 | SpeedEvil | Power consumption |
| 03:04.30 | Macer | ok thanks |
| 03:04.47 | DocScrutinizer | at the end of config a particular net |
| 03:05.32 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: is there way to do this for the wifi hotspot? |
| 03:05.37 | Macer | since range isn't really an issue? |
| 03:06.14 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: no idea, but it seems this settings is global for all networks and thus maybe for hotspot as well |
| 03:06.31 | Macer | ah ok. so it isn't just for the network in question? |
| 03:06.38 | Macer | why not a different screen for it then since it is global |
| 03:06.40 | Macer | ? |
| 03:06.43 | DocScrutinizer | yeah it's terribly misplaced |
| 03:06.51 | Macer | maybe a settings applet for it |
| 03:07.09 | Macer | a "Power" settings applet would be nice with all the tweaks for savingn power rolled into one applet |
| 03:07.15 | SpeedEvil | In nearly all cases, changing hte power will make no perceptible differencee to battery life. |
| 03:07.26 | Macer | ah i see |
| 03:07.31 | SpeedEvil | As the amount of time you spend transmitting is very small. |
| 03:07.34 | DocScrutinizer | for hotspot it will |
| 03:07.44 | SpeedEvil | And the power usage when listening in hotspot mode will usually swamp it. |
| 03:07.54 | SpeedEvil | Also the 3G will utterly swamp it. |
| 03:08.07 | DocScrutinizer | yeah |
| 03:08.10 | SpeedEvil | It may be measurable, but it's not going to be noticable. |
| 03:08.19 | Macer | well... any bit will do |
| 03:08.22 | SpeedEvil | True. |
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| 03:08.44 | Macer | 100mW when you have a good network at 10mW just makes a little more sense too |
| 03:08.53 | Macer | to just drop it regardless |
| 03:08.58 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 03:08.59 | Macer | why not make it auto? :) |
| 03:09.02 | luke-jr | just charges whenever he's in the car. |
| 03:09.03 | Macer | heh |
| 03:09.23 | Macer | if it detects too many tx pkt failures to bump it up to 100mW on its own |
| 03:09.48 | DocScrutinizer | anyway hotspot without charger attached seems no real usecase after all |
| 03:10.06 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: true but i am talking about general roaming usage of the wifi |
| 03:10.15 | Macer | at home 10mW may be fine because of proximity to the router |
| 03:10.20 | Macer | an airport... not so much |
| 03:10.21 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: hard to detect tx errors |
| 03:10.31 | Macer | ah ok. well.. figured it sounded like a good idea ;) |
| 03:10.54 | Macer | haviung a power section in settings dedicated to power tweaks would still be a nice thing to have too |
| 03:11.10 | Macer | maybe even with high and low power profiles that turn things on and off by simply swapping profiles |
| 03:11.45 | DocScrutinizer | a general profile management that's not only swapping ringtones would be very nice |
| 03:13.06 | DocScrutinizer | a profile manager that at very least knows about *all* sliders and buttons in settings and you can pick which ones get changed on activating this particular new profile |
| 03:13.25 | DocScrutinizer | like brightness, time to tklock, whatnot else |
| 03:13.36 | DocScrutinizer | ringtone melody |
| 03:15.05 | Macer | yeah... that would be nice.. but power profiles come in handy as well ;) |
| 03:15.08 | DocScrutinizer | also "switch to WLAN if available [x]" |
| 03:15.36 | Macer | lol... yeah.. that's kind of a pain sometimes tbh... maybe making a network hotlist of which to auto switch to ? |
| 03:15.39 | DocScrutinizer | what's in a power profile that such a general profile manager can't handle? |
| 03:15.42 | Macer | whitelist |
| 03:15.59 | Macer | it isn't about handling.. it's about what it shouldn't handle when only related to power |
| 03:16.19 | Macer | if you want to swap to low power mode where the screen dims.. wifi powers down a bit... etc... but your ringtone stays the same :) |
| 03:16.26 | DocScrutinizer | >>...and you can pick which ones get changed...<< |
| 03:16.29 | Macer | it would take a lot more sliders and adjustments in a general profile |
| 03:16.42 | Macer | as opposed to a strictly power profile changing design |
| 03:16.43 | SpeedEvil | And more calls to support from confused users. |
| 03:16.56 | Macer | SpeedEvil: that as well |
| 03:17.04 | Macer | lumping it all together would kind of confuse people |
| 03:17.31 | DocScrutinizer | nonsense |
| 03:17.52 | Macer | people are easily adjusted to "this makes my battery live longer" as opposed to "this makes my battery use more power while playig a rock ringtone and disabling gtalk while enabling gvoice and turning on 2 email accounts and disabling the work one..." |
| 03:18.13 | Macer | simplicity is why iphone wins heh |
| 03:18.28 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: you're talking gibberish |
| 03:18.33 | Macer | they wouldn't lump everything together to that... because not only would people get frustrated... but they would also have less shiny buttons to play with :) |
| 03:18.56 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: your horizon is obviously limited on that topic |
| 03:18.59 | Macer | no i am not... i meana don't get me wrong a general profile is nice but lumping too much into a single change |
| 03:19.25 | DocScrutinizer | >>...and you can pick which ones get changed...<< |
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| 03:19.57 | Macer | yeah but you would want to change 50 things in a general profile as opposed to just a few basic power changes to lower and raise power consumption in the power vs performance game? |
| 03:20.43 | Macer | that is something you do while you have a ton of time to tweak every setting related to a general profile .. not when you just want to set up something quick that will dim the screen and turn off your gps |
| 03:21.09 | Macer | or turn it back on and raise the brightness because you are going to drive |
| 03:21.55 | DocScrutinizer | procedure: open settings, click "define new general profile", do whatever changes you want to do to settings subgroups, on closing settings main menu the profile manager pops up, shows all the things you edited so you can remove edits you did accidently, then you name the new profile and it will contain only the *changes* you made while it leaves other settings untouched when you activate that profile eventually |
| 03:23.57 | merlin1991 | so kinda like macrorecording? |
| 03:24.26 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: i get that but you are lumping too much into one thing :) |
| 03:24.37 | Macer | which is a great addition for people willing to do that |
| 03:24.50 | Macer | but i still think a power only version would also be useful |
| 03:25.12 | Macer | you can also just let the gerneral profule USE the power profile ;) |
| 03:25.15 | Macer | that woudl save time |
| 03:25.31 | DocScrutinizer | I'd even add a few gimmicks to that final profile review menu where you can remove unwanted edits from the profile: select particular changes to be relative rather than the defualt absolute, so e.g changing volume change (60%->70%) to relative will make that profile not set volume to 70% unconditionally biut rather *increase* any current vilume by 10% |
| 03:26.16 | Macer | so really all you are doing is taking the entire settings app... and turning it all into one giant lumped page with all the sliders and changes? ;) |
| 03:26.33 | Macer | why not just save what all those settings are ? |
| 03:26.37 | *** join/#maemo n6pfk (~n6pfk__@pool-74-110-218-2.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 03:26.39 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: wtf is wrong with a profile that records and sets only your power related settings if you did only power reölated settings. How is that "too much" nad how are you thinking it could get "less"? |
| 03:27.02 | Macer | meaning... do it all from settings and just have a button that says "save profile as...." |
| 03:27.05 | Macer | as an applet |
| 03:27.09 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: you completely missed what I tried to explain |
| 03:27.14 | Macer | no i didn't |
| 03:27.23 | Macer | i just think your method is non-intuitive |
| 03:27.26 | Macer | no offense |
| 03:28.17 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: YES you DID, and I don't give a shit about what you think about what you think is my idea of that applet as IT ISN'T what I told you |
| 03:29.05 | DocScrutinizer | a profile manager that at very least knows about *all* sliders and buttons in settings and you can pick which ones get changed on activating this particular new profile |
| 03:29.06 | Macer | :) it's youru applet.. i was just throwing ideas out there and being the devil's advocate.. no need to get worked up over it |
| 03:29.29 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-11-11 04:21:15] <DocScrutinizer> procedure: open settings, click "define new general profile", do whatever changes you want to do to settings subgroups, on closing settings main menu the profile manager pops up, shows all the things you edited so you can remove edits you did accidently, then you name the new profile and it will contain only the *changes* you made while it leaves other settings untouched when you activate that profile |
| 03:29.31 | DocScrutinizer | eventually |
| 03:30.05 | DocScrutinizer | my applet is just a button "start new profile" and a requester "name: " |
| 03:30.39 | DocScrutinizer | there's definitely *nothing* crammed in that possibly could get trown out in that |
| 03:30.41 | *** join/#maemo maybeHere (~cl@p5B167CAF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:31.08 | Macer | fair enough but a power profile selector should still be in settings.. what if you want to maintain the exact same profile but simply swap power profiles on the fly? |
| 03:31.30 | DocScrutinizer | headdesks |
| 03:31.54 | Macer | do you go through all the subsettings on what you think will save power and make a new general profile? |
| 03:32.22 | Macer | or do you just open a power subsetion in settings and adjust it all there? |
| 03:32.27 | Macer | which do you think would be easier? |
| 03:32.37 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: you're free to publish your greatest profiles for restoring them via this general profile manager |
| 03:33.26 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: you remind me of the mind of an engineer ;) |
| 03:33.55 | DocScrutinizer | then user will just open "set general profile", pick "macer's acme power profile #2" from list and done |
| 03:35.17 | DocScrutinizer | I don't see how your specialized powe rprofile manager could do it any better than that |
| 03:35.41 | Macer | DocScrutinizer: i completely understand what you are saying.. but what steps would i need to do in order to adjust the power settings.. i would be stuck in the settings app for about 10 mins... going through all the things within the subsections and finding what i believe will save power instead of opening up a simple power subsection with them all in one place for me to adjust and save a profile.... with your methid using both the power profile alongside the gern |
| 03:36.03 | Macer | and later have the ability to hotswap power profiles on the fly if that is all you want to adjust.. instead of having 20 different general profiles just to change the power |
| 03:36.16 | DocScrutinizer | headdesks some more |
| 03:37.25 | Macer | :) lmao... yes.. you are definately an engineer. instead of thinking like an engineer.. think like an architect ;) |
| 03:37.35 | DocScrutinizer | BS |
| 03:37.36 | Macer | ok.. i will quit bugging you with this heh |
| 03:38.43 | Macer | engineers are funny in a sense that if you assign them to a water valve.. they will want to completely reconstruct the entire water piping instead of simply making a better valve... architects are more like artists trying to determine what would best suit the poeple who will use it |
| 03:38.53 | DocScrutinizer | "edit profile", pick name, do whatever edits you think the profile needs *in standards settimgs et al dialog*, click "save edited profile" |
| 03:39.10 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: you start to troll |
| 03:39.15 | Macer | i'm not! :-P |
| 03:39.29 | luke-jr | yet |
| 03:39.41 | Macer | you are just bent on your own way. i am just offering the alternative |
| 03:39.45 | aholler | wanting to think like an architect doesn't make you one |
| 03:39.55 | Macer | based on the way i would expect to use something in that manner |
| 03:40.19 | Macer | as well as .. "what if my 5 year old son used the n900...." :) which is what most people are who use devices |
| 03:40.34 | DocScrutinizer | Macer: you are not offering any alternative, you don't see that all your alternatives are imlemented to the dot in a generla approach I described |
| 03:41.11 | Macer | they are but in a different fashion than what would be expected.. you are reminding me of what symbian would do with its profiles and that was a bad way to do it |
| 03:42.00 | DocScrutinizer | I don't give a flying F of what you're reminded, I insist in you failing to understand what I say |
| 03:42.28 | Macer | very well |
| 03:42.58 | DocScrutinizer | and you actually haven't explained what *exactly* you are expecting yet |
| 03:43.33 | Macer | i think i did multiple times very clearly.. but it's ok. it isn't that serious :) i am going to eat and watch margin call again |
| 03:43.34 | DocScrutinizer | all you came up with is "a new dialog that has a random selection of things" |
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| 03:45.30 | Macer | to save power on the N900 in maemo.. you open settings.. you open display.. change the brightness... you open bluetooth.. on off... wifi.. on off.... power level... etc... all in differnt areas.. whil i understand what you are looking at whereas the general profile controls EVERYTHING in settings... which is fine... i believe there should be one simply for power settings alone with these options which are ONLY RELATED TO POWER placed within the settings subsection |
| 03:46.12 | DocScrutinizer | NO THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID |
| 03:46.48 | Macer | omg.... honestly. never mind. |
| 03:46.57 | Macer | back to my margin call and food |
| 03:47.06 | aholler | nothing is only related to power. |
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| 04:01.44 | DocScrutinizer | listen dude. You talk about a special view that collects settings available elsewhere in one place. That's all fine (though I don't exactly see who's going to decide which of the plethora of settings should go in there), anyway with general profile manager you got a tool to create that view in no time: somebody else (=the nice Mr Macer) published a profile pack for General Profile Manager which contains 1 or 2 or 20 so called PowerProfiles. |
| 04:01.45 | DocScrutinizer | You can open such a profile for editing in two different ways: a) "edit in profile" which will open a dialog that's exactly your view of selected things, e.g one of MrMacers PowerProfiles has just brightness and WLAN-power so opening that profile via "edit in profile" will just show those two settings to chenge them to your liking. After you're don tweaking either brightness or/and WLAN-power you have to option to apply and/or store the |
| 04:01.47 | DocScrutinizer | changed profile, under same or new name. Method B) is "change profile settings" and will just load the profile and open the standard system settings dialog, you do whatever tweaks you want in settings, to brightness, WLAN-Power, or any other of the available settings (in which case the new changed setting gets added to the edited profile), and on closing the settings system dialog you again get the option to save the profile under same or |
| 04:01.48 | DocScrutinizer | new name (applying it doesn't make sense here as you already applied all changes when you messed with settings dialog). |
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| 04:11.44 | DocScrutinizer | somebody else will want to create a "night" profile that sets brightness, alarm-clock-ringtone and loudness, and ONLY that. He clicks "create new profile", settings dialog opens, he sets brightness and the other two to the values he needs for sleeping and wake up alarm, then stores this profile under name "myNight". Any later time he may want to change brightness, he does exactly what I explained above (either 'edit in profile "MyNight"' or |
| 04:11.45 | DocScrutinizer | 'change profile settings "MyNight"') and he *might* want to save that new profile under name "MyDarkNight" - or he decides it's just a convenient way to change brightness via "edit in profile" and then go to "apply profile" instead of "apply and safe" and he got the personalized view that has only "brightness" "ringtone" "volume" and on selecting "apply" he discards the edits and MyNight stays unaltered which is exactly what you were asking |
| 04:11.47 | DocScrutinizer | for |
| 04:17.22 | DocScrutinizer | and if you feel like you really need that special PowerProfile settings sub-applet (actually it's a plugin I'd say) I promise to you if I specify General Power Manager then it comes with an API that makes implementing that settings submenu plugin a matter of invoking $>gpm --edit-in-profile -profile-name "MrMacer's ACME Powerprofile" |
| 04:18.09 | DocScrutinizer | s/General Power/General Profile/ |
| 04:18.12 | DocScrutinizer | yay |
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| 04:23.56 | DocScrutinizer | to even more please your call for simplicity, I'll make that $>gpm --edit-in-profile --no-edit=incremental,delete-control --profile-name="MrMacer's ACME Powerprofile" |
| 04:25.55 | DocScrutinizer | so your users won't get puzzled by a "incremental [x]" and a "remove this control from profile" widget in your customized view that only shows `all power related settings in one place' |
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| 04:33.08 | DocScrutinizer | I admit my concept has one drawback compared to a generic powermanager pliugin for settings as you suggested: edits in the "edit in profile" don't take instant effect, rather the whole bunch gets applied when you hit either "apply" or "apply&save" button. I don't think this is am unbearable shortcoming, and we could even work around it for some selected settings like e.g brightness and volume, by implementing a direct control link to the |
| 04:33.10 | DocScrutinizer | actual setting in system for those |
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| 05:04.57 | DocScrutinizer | oops I wasn't completely precise above: on both "create new profile" and "change profile settings" on closing the system's settings dialog GPM will open up the "edit in profile" view for the actual setting, so you `could delete controls you accidently changed though you don't want them in this profile", as well as change some of the controls (I was about to write "of the changed controls" but I think meanwhile it's clear in a profile there |
| 05:04.59 | DocScrutinizer | are always only changed controled stored) to "relative" (I named it "incremental" but I think "relative" is the better term). |
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| 06:13.59 | Macer | does anybody here use theonering? |
| 06:14.05 | Macer | i can't seem to get gvoice to call directly |
| 06:14.25 | Macer | doing the awkward forwarding thing seems to work but that kind of sucks... does it simply not call directly through gvoice? |
| 06:15.59 | Macer | judging by the error received i am going to assume yes. :) ah well |
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| 06:28.56 | LaoLang_cool | hello |
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| 06:41.03 | ruskie | http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Barnes-Noble-petition-and-letter-to-DoJ/ |
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| 09:51.09 | LaoLang_cool | hello! |
| 09:51.13 | LaoLang_cool | Still bed time? |
| 09:52.48 | LaoLang_cool | Can I lock the desktop? So when click the desktop, the setting icon won't be shown |
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| 09:53.51 | DocScrutinizer | on CSSU yes |
| 09:54.00 | DocScrutinizer | resp on MHD |
| 09:54.25 | LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: wow, CSSU is so featureful |
| 09:54.37 | DocScrutinizer | oops, maybe this was just for the applauncher menu though |
| 09:54.39 | LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: I can't understand 'resp on MHD' ... |
| 09:54.58 | DocScrutinizer | scratch it, doesn't matter |
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| 10:03.04 | DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: seems CSSU does not support no-edit on desktop, it would be a very nice improvement though. You should open a ticket for this suggestion |
| 10:03.42 | LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: oh, yup, but I'm using offical release 38 pr |
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| 10:36.28 | DocScrutinizer | anybody could tell me how to configure KNetworkManager on PC to use a 3G USB modem (here: N900)? |
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| 10:39.26 | psycho_oreos | I |
| 10:40.14 | psycho_oreos | I've personally never tried KNetworkManager but I have it working with just NetworkManager alone here. I guess because its xubuntu its more or less `plug-n-play' :) why is your's showing up errors? |
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| 10:43.13 | DocScrutinizer | yes, that's the question |
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| 10:44.55 | psycho_oreos | so your intentions was to try and get KNetworkManager to work and not worry about NetworkManager? :) |
| 10:45.24 | groszek | hi. is twitter supported officially in conversation app? i only have ovi/skype/jabber/sip/facebook there (although I do have twitter support for sharing pics) |
| 10:46.03 | DocScrutinizer | my intention was to access internet over N900 USB modem, and it doesn't connect. Possibly because of "number: *99#" not correctly set by me, or whatever |
| 10:46.18 | groszek | i've seen a plugin from 2009, but apparently it doesn't work anymore, and other news suggest it was included in some update to the app itself.. |
| 10:48.52 | psycho_oreos | *99# I presume is pretty much the form of tethering number being used. I have 3 different mobile broadband accounts (2 currently active but with the same provider). The bottom line is I do not think *99$# is the issue |
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| 11:02.04 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer51: the 99 is a magic number - it's the same constnatly. |
| 11:02.34 | SpeedEvil | The issues I've seen configuring 3G are APN, and password, and compression negotiation. |
| 11:02.47 | SpeedEvil | Look at syslog for ppp errors. |
| 11:02.59 | SpeedEvil | That said - I don't actually use configurators, I use ppp 'raw' |
| 11:03.10 | SpeedEvil | Like I did back in 1996. |
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| 11:03.38 | SpeedEvil | should probably mmove on. |
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| 11:29.13 | ShadowJK | also uses ppp "raw" |
| 11:29.39 | ShadowJK | "while true; do pppd call gprs ; done" |
| 11:31.45 | groszek | uhm anyone has twitter integrated with his conversations? if yes, how? :< |
| 11:33.13 | ZogG | slonopotamus, ping |
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| 11:38.12 | ZogG | ruskie, ping |
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| 11:44.46 | DocScrutinizer | that's so MEH |
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| 11:52.05 | slonopotamus | ZogG: pong |
| 11:52.18 | ZogG | slonopotamus sup. serched for you on gentoo-ru |
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| 11:54.16 | jonwil | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1121781#post1121781 |
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| 11:56.50 | slonopotamus | jonwil: looks like you don't want to do anything :-/ |
| 11:57.14 | jonwil | no, there its lots on my todo list |
| 11:57.25 | jonwil | Just a whole bunch of stuff I have already ruled out as "too hard" |
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| 12:14.49 | jonwil | so anyone got anything I should work on"? |
| 12:15.34 | jonwil | Might do the virtual keyboard stuff given the demand for it |
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| 12:20.48 | SpeedEvil | mehs that he can't buy jonwil nice disssasemblers. |
| 12:21.23 | mece_ | jonwil, with cssu having a lot of the features in portrait mode these days, the portrait vkb would be pretty cool. |
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| 12:22.35 | mintux | how can I open conversion backup on my system . it seems store in .db files |
| 12:22.35 | jonwil | ok, I have decided to clone gen_vkb and make it work properly for Fremantle (it doesn't look that hard) as well as fixing up the decode_vkb script to handle everything in Fremantle |
| 12:22.52 | SpeedEvil | Would that include doing BT properly? |
| 12:22.57 | SpeedEvil | Or is that a seperate stack |
| 12:23.10 | jonwil | bluetooth is not part of the virtual keyboard |
| 12:23.17 | jonwil | and I already said no to anything bluetooth |
| 12:23.48 | jonwil | especially since I own precisely ZERO bluetooth devices |
| 12:24.41 | jonwil | once i finish gen_fkb and decode_fkb, I will publish it along with my header file for libimlayout |
| 12:24.45 | jonwil | as a package |
| 12:25.15 | SpeedEvil | K. |
| 12:25.48 | jonwil | actually, I will probably write my own decode_vkb because the current decode_vkb is written in (UGH) Perl. |
| 12:26.00 | jonwil | a language I know NOTHING about |
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| 12:29.04 | woldrich | I know Perl. I can hack it faster than you ... can |
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| 13:51.27 | LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: sorry to disturb you again, could you try to compile mupdf please? It has some useful cli features. http://mupdf.com// |
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| 14:04.18 | *** mode/#maemo [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
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| 14:08.41 | Sicelo | ~jrtools |
| 14:08.41 | infobot | rumour has it, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools |
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| 14:15.25 | jabis | ~boobies |
| 14:15.25 | infobot | boobies are always fun to play with, or very big |
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| 14:33.06 | merlin1991 | X-Fade: ping |
| 14:34.29 | LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: ping |
| 14:34.38 | LaoLang_cool | :) |
| 14:35.03 | merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: isn't the internal pdf reader enough? |
| 14:35.40 | LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: mupdf can export pdf to txt file, and it has nice vi style keybinding |
| 14:36.29 | merlin1991 | I'll see what I can do |
| 14:36.42 | LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: thank you! |
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| 15:04.37 | medicalwei | Anyone using irreco or sth related to lirc? |
| 15:04.56 | medicalwei | i got my irreco not working with the same code… |
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| 15:07.26 | valerius | ppl, how to repair apt? cannot neither reinstall samba again, neither deinstall it. -- Something with post-install scripts in samba .deb package |
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| 15:08.49 | merlin1991 | valerius: pastebin the errors? |
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| 15:10.46 | valerius | I cannot install nothing using apt-get, but dpkg and package manager works |
| 15:10.47 | valerius | ok, a minute... |
| 15:11.53 | medicalwei | apt-get -f install or remove apt lock? |
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| 15:19.30 | valerius | medicalwei -f won't help |
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| 15:21.01 | valerius | medicalwei which lock? I don't see any in /var/lock |
| 15:22.52 | valerius | btw, how to copy text from xterm? copy by stylus doesn't work, but scrolling instead |
| 15:24.20 | medicalwei | valerius: did you installed ssh? |
| 15:25.03 | valerius | deleted /var/lib/apt/lists/lock but no effect |
| 15:25.17 | valerius | medicalwei yes, it is installed |
| 15:25.34 | valerius | but no wifi now |
| 15:25.55 | medicalwei | Hmm… |
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| 15:27.14 | valerius | An error: package samba needs to be reinstalled but cannot find package for it |
| 15:27.48 | medicalwei | dpkg -P samba # to purge samba? |
| 15:27.51 | valerius | when trying apt-get install/remove something |
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| 15:28.38 | valerius | strange, samba is broken but I installed it before somehow and it even worked for me... |
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| 15:30.17 | valerius | medicalwei "Package is in a very bad inconsistent state, you need to reinstall it before attempting to remove it" |
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| 15:30.41 | valerius | this is when I tried to purge it |
| 15:30.51 | medicalwei | valerius: grab it manually? |
| 15:31.19 | medicalwei | valerius: http://maemo.org/packages/view/samba/ |
| 15:31.33 | valerius | unpack manually by midnight commander? |
| 15:31.51 | medicalwei | No. after downloading it, dpkg -i <the package> |
| 15:33.22 | valerius | medicalwei ok, thanks... |
| 15:35.09 | medicalwei | wonders anyone using lirc? |
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| 15:48.10 | medicalwei | ok. i got the problem why my tv won't accept the ir signal. |
| 15:48.29 | medicalwei | the signal needs to be repeated…orz |
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| 15:50.27 | valerius | medicalwei cannot install -- some post-removal script returned bad status -- sh script aborted abnormally |
| 15:50.49 | medicalwei | valerius: O_O; |
| 15:51.13 | valerius | don't know why post-removal but not post install |
| 15:51.22 | medicalwei | either |
| 15:52.14 | valerius | the package samba_3.4.3_maemo2_armel.deb is broken |
| 15:52.54 | valerius | I think, it tries to remove something before installing itself |
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| 15:58.18 | mgedmin | post-rm script errors are very not fun |
| 15:58.35 | mgedmin | which one was it? |
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| 16:02.59 | valerius | /bin/sh illegal option - |
| 16:03.18 | valerius | dpkg: error while cleaning up |
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| 16:04.30 | mgedmin | I meant which script |
| 16:04.34 | valerius | subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2 |
| 16:04.54 | mgedmin | I could try to help you fix it, if you pastebin the whole script somewhere |
| 16:05.45 | valerius | where to take the script? can I somehow extract it using dpkg? |
| 16:06.53 | mgedmin | dpkg output should have told you it was running the post-remove script for package X |
| 16:07.00 | mgedmin | you can find the script in /var/lib/dpkg/info/X.postrm |
| 16:07.35 | valerius | and silly question: how can I pastebin from xterm? copying with stylus doesn't work |
| 16:07.38 | mgedmin | the error itself makes it seem as if the script is expecting bash to be /bin/sh, or something like that -- and gets a busybox shell instead |
| 16:07.54 | mgedmin | can you ssh in? |
| 16:08.02 | RST38h | ehlo all |
| 16:08.13 | mgedmin | or just tell me the name of the package and its version |
| 16:08.21 | valerius | no, I have no wifi now |
| 16:09.04 | valerius | but I can from the device itself -- I have midnight commander installed |
| 16:09.14 | ruskie | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/11/apple_sim_patent/ <-- heh |
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| 16:14.59 | valerius | mgedmin I found it, now need to pastebin |
| 16:16.28 | gn00b | having major problems with my n900. when i plug into my pc i see the device but no folders. i've copied a few files to the device, unplugged it and went into the file manager, but don't have any folders or the newly copied files. wtf??? |
| 16:16.53 | valerius | but could someone help with hotkeys? -- how can I do "Ctrl-Ins/Shift-Ins" on N900? |
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| 16:17.37 | valerius | gn00b maybe, the FS is not mounted? |
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| 16:19.07 | madkickers | where is partition of / ? there is only 3 partitions.one for MyDocs,one for /home and another one is swap.where is root? |
| 16:19.49 | NIN101 | on NAND |
| 16:19.56 | NIN101 | /dev/mtd5 |
| 16:19.57 | SpeedEvil | you can't see / when you plug the device in - this is the 'MyDocs' device |
| 16:20.11 | valerius | maybe, he means the microSD card? |
| 16:20.27 | gn00b | no microsd |
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| 16:21.42 | valerius | gn00b so, probably, your MyDocs are busy and not mounted on PC |
| 16:21.49 | madkickers | so is it possible to mount root when im using usb mass storage mode in backup menu? kuz there is no such thing to mount? |
| 16:22.26 | NIN101 | afaik, no. |
| 16:22.35 | NIN101 | as it isn't a block device etc. |
| 16:22.45 | gn00b | ok. my sister just told me what she did. she formated with linux, couldn't see any files on the device then formatted with windows and still couldn't see anything. |
| 16:23.03 | gn00b | doing fsck now |
| 16:23.15 | SpeedEvil | you will never see anything other than the mydocs partition when you plug it in to USB. |
| 16:23.29 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 16:23.34 | valerius | gn00b in fat32 or ext2 :) |
| 16:23.35 | madkickers | what is NAND :-D |
| 16:23.37 | SpeedEvil | 'backup menu' - I don't know what that is. |
| 16:23.39 | gn00b | i got it. thanks. maybe i should've asked her what she did first |
| 16:24.52 | madkickers | speedevil: it helps to make a backup of whole storage.and has an option to access the storage of the cellphone |
| 16:25.53 | valerius | ppl, sorry for dumb question, but how to copy/paste from the keyboard? I ask because no Ins key on the keyboard |
| 16:26.01 | madkickers | also there is a kind of kernel in meego's website which gives u some advanced options to develop ur n900 |
| 16:26.14 | SpeedEvil | ctrl-c / ctrl-v may work |
| 16:26.25 | *** join/#maemo re_join (~ircchatte@nat-210.megalan.ru) |
| 16:26.54 | valerius | speedevil thx, will try.. |
| 16:28.40 | valerius | speedevil but how to copy paste in xtetrm? trying to open file in mc but ctrl-c closes the file |
| 16:28.52 | SpeedEvil | that won't work then |
| 16:29.06 | SpeedEvil | you need to pop up the titlebar, and then click copy/paste |
| 16:29.06 | madkickers | k. another question. is it possible to make image gallery to show images in different categories? |
| 16:29.16 | valerius | stylus won't copy too but scrolls |
| 16:30.08 | valerius | ah, it seems I found it! -- copy option in virtual keyboard :) |
| 16:30.10 | SpeedEvil | Click the arrow to bring up the stylus |
| 16:30.28 | SpeedEvil | then copy appears in the menu |
| 16:30.50 | valerius | speedevil on titlebar there is only 'paste' option, no 'copy' |
| 16:31.17 | SpeedEvil | you need to select something |
| 16:31.39 | SpeedEvil | the arrow at the bottom left |
| 16:31.46 | SpeedEvil | then select, then copy appears |
| 16:33.19 | valerius | Where is an arrow? in xterm window? -- I see none.. |
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| 16:36.29 | valerius | speedevil found arrow ;) Strange, when mc is started, no arrow but in plain xterm or vi, it is present :) |
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| 16:43.12 | valerius | mgedmin this is my postremove script: http://pastebin.com/uAHMw1wx don't see anything criminal, only ";;" in one 'case' variant and none in other. Ldconfig works too on my n900 |
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| 16:47.08 | mgedmin | the first line doesn't start with #, why? |
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| 16:48.27 | mgedmin | and which package is this? |
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| 16:50.40 | valerius | mgedmin It starts from #! /bin/sh |
| 16:51.13 | valerius | I did not copied the first character, sorry |
| 16:51.29 | *** part/#maemo joedu12 (~joevin12@AToulouse-254-1-118-169.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 16:52.00 | valerius | mgedmin it is samba_3.4.3_maemo2_armel.deb |
| 16:52.08 | mgedmin | so a copy/paste error then |
| 16:52.17 | valerius | the newest one |
| 16:52.21 | valerius | yes |
| 16:52.30 | *** part/#maemo madkickers (~user@92.42.55.143) |
| 16:52.40 | mgedmin | you said this happened during install time? |
| 16:52.52 | mgedmin | during install time dpkg runs the postrm script of the PREVIOUS version |
| 16:53.20 | mgedmin | then I get fuzzy -- IIRC it maybe runs the new postrm if the previous one fails? |
| 16:53.49 | mgedmin | it's documented somewhere in the Debian Policy Manual |
| 16:53.52 | mgedmin | let me look it up |
| 16:54.06 | valerius | So, I must to correct the previous one? |
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| 16:55.27 | mgedmin | http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html says new-postrm is run with 'upgrade-failed' if old-postrm fails during upgrade |
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| 16:56.17 | mgedmin | if new-postrm doesn't fail, upgrade continues |
| 16:57.37 | valerius | but it seems, the old one returns sucessfully -- I see no error when running ./apt.postrm remove |
| 16:58.41 | mgedmin | what? DON'T DO THAT! |
| 16:58.52 | mgedmin | why apt? you're trying to install *samba*, not *apt* |
| 16:58.52 | valerius | why? |
| 16:59.12 | mgedmin | if you fsck up apt, you'll end up with a broken system and most likely need to reflash |
| 17:00.00 | valerius | I thought, it is samba post-removal script |
| 17:00.27 | mgedmin | no, samba postrm script is named, unsurprisingly, sampa.postrm |
| 17:00.30 | mgedmin | *samba |
| 17:00.50 | mgedmin | but I thought we were talking about a prerm? |
| 17:00.58 | mgedmin | I'm sorry, I mixed up the terms above |
| 17:01.13 | mgedmin | luckily, apt.postrm remove doesn't do anything bad |
| 17:01.55 | valerius | yes, I checked -- my apt is ok :) |
| 17:02.21 | mgedmin | so, /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba.postrm |
| 17:02.52 | valerius | So, this is not a samba post-removal script. -- Will try searching again |
| 17:04.51 | *** join/#maemo mesx (~mesx@89-172-237-168.adsl.net.t-com.hr) |
| 17:05.16 | mgedmin | downloads samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb from maemo.org |
| 17:05.29 | mgedmin | can't find anything suspicious in the postrm script... |
| 17:05.42 | mgedmin | ah! DOS line endings! |
| 17:05.45 | mgedmin | the maintainer fucked up |
| 17:06.26 | *** join/#maemo slonopotamus (~slonopota@176.57.72.68) |
| 17:06.26 | mgedmin | pastebin is useless for noticing something like that |
| 17:07.00 | *** join/#maemo ZogG (~zoggrules@bzq-79-177-202-146.red.bezeqint.net) |
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| 17:08.59 | valerius | mgedmin Found samba postrm script. It appears that the script has DOS EOLN markers (Ctrl-M throughout the file) |
| 17:09.51 | mgedmin | yes |
| 17:10.05 | mgedmin | does mcedit show them as ^Ms, I wonder? |
| 17:10.16 | mgedmin | iirc no |
| 17:10.54 | mgedmin | oh, it does! nice! |
| 17:11.02 | *** join/#maemo wam (~wam@HSI-KBW-078-043-090-014.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 17:11.02 | *** join/#maemo wam (~wam@unaffiliated/wam) |
| 17:11.16 | mgedmin | so you can fix them |
| 17:11.55 | hiemanshu | use dos2unix or whatever it is to make the changes |
| 17:12.08 | valerius | deleted carriage reurns from the script |
| 17:12.30 | *** join/#maemo msanchez_ (~msanchez@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) |
| 17:12.34 | hiemanshu | dos2unix FTW! :D |
| 17:12.36 | valerius | manually, in mc text editor ;). |
| 17:12.47 | valerius | :)) |
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| 17:15.38 | mgedmin | I don't think maemo5 comes with dos2unix :) |
| 17:16.39 | mgedmin | is this bug known to the people who uploaded samba to maemo extras, I wonder? |
| 17:16.57 | mgedmin | if it only shows up when you try to remove or upgrade samba, people might not notice |
| 17:19.16 | valerius | mgedmin ./samba.postrm remove works but dpkg -P samba still won't work ;( |
| 17:19.29 | mgedmin | what's the error? |
| 17:19.40 | *** join/#maemo Creteil (dtc@lns-bzn-51f-62-147-196-247.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 17:19.46 | Creteil | hi all |
| 17:20.04 | valerius | mgedmin when I trying to install/ remove anything, not only smba |
| 17:20.23 | mgedmin | valerius, run dpkg --configure -a |
| 17:20.27 | Creteil | does someone here know what is the problem here : https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/strace_4.5.20-2.3maemo0/summary.log ??? |
| 17:21.23 | mgedmin | and then maybe apt-get install -f |
| 17:22.07 | mgedmin | Creteil, O.o? I think only X-Fade can figure that out |
| 17:22.12 | valerius | The same error "the package is in very bad inconsistent state..." |
| 17:23.06 | mgedmin | oh, right, "you need to reinstall before attempting to continue" |
| 17:23.07 | mgedmin | mhm |
| 17:23.13 | mgedmin | can you apt-get install --reinstall samba? |
| 17:23.20 | mgedmin | or does that also fail? |
| 17:24.01 | Creteil | oh I see you are going to try to install samba probably on the device ... |
| 17:24.16 | mgedmin | I would attempt this: fix DOS line endings of all files named samba.* in /var/lib/dpkg/info, then apt-get install --reinstall samba, then fix all files _again_ (because reinstall will restore the broken ones), then apt-get remove --purge samba |
| 17:24.19 | Creteil | this package just don't install properly |
| 17:24.31 | totalizator | DocScrutinizer: thanks for the tip; good to know that i don't need to disassemble it but do I really need to remove the 2 torx screws to remove the keyboard frame? the Nokia service manual says that you should not reuse the torx screws and I don't have spare ones |
| 17:24.36 | mgedmin | of course --reinstall will probably fail with the same error.... |
| 17:24.47 | Creteil | mgedmin, this is not the only problem of the package ... |
| 17:25.07 | Creteil | mgedmin, already do that but that doesn't fix the bad installation at all ... |
| 17:25.31 | mgedmin | dpkg has a database where it has recorded that the package is Badly Broken(TM), because of the failed postrm script |
| 17:26.17 | mgedmin | to unwedge the database you need to install a fixed version of samba |
| 17:26.22 | Creteil | mgedmin, yes I know that, but even after fixing cr/lf there another troubles in the postrm script itselft |
| 17:26.29 | mgedmin | hm, I don't have a fremantle target in my scratchbox |
| 17:27.01 | Creteil | s/itselft/itself/ |
| 17:27.16 | mgedmin | there's always the big hammer solution: backup, reflash, don't try to install samba |
| 17:27.41 | mgedmin | Creteil, like what? |
| 17:27.49 | Creteil | mgedmin, I have successfully removed the package after tweaking ... |
| 17:28.25 | mgedmin | tell valerius about your tweaks then! |
| 17:28.30 | Creteil | mgedmin, don't remember it substitution with sed IIRC ... |
| 17:28.40 | mgedmin | I don't see anything obviously wrong in the script |
| 17:28.44 | mgedmin | sed is not used |
| 17:28.49 | Creteil | or awk |
| 17:28.53 | mgedmin | maybe you're talking about postinst, not postrm? |
| 17:28.54 | Creteil | or something else |
| 17:29.01 | Creteil | oh yes |
| 17:29.05 | Creteil | postinst |
| 17:29.06 | Creteil | sorry |
| 17:29.21 | mgedmin | oh yes, sed -e "s/^[[:space:]]...." |
| 17:29.56 | Creteil | so, even after fixing cr/lf, then the postinst doesn't end properly with an error leaving the package in a bad step |
| 17:30.06 | Creteil | mgedmin, yes this is it !!! |
| 17:30.11 | mgedmin | but you can at least remove it, I think |
| 17:30.16 | mgedmin | while if postrm fails... |
| 17:30.35 | Creteil | mgedmin, what does exactly apt-get remove report ? |
| 17:30.49 | mgedmin | talk to valerius |
| 17:30.57 | mgedmin | I haven't ever tried to install samba on my n900 |
| 17:30.58 | Creteil | valerius, what does exactly apt-get remove report ? |
| 17:31.31 | mgedmin | if I understand it correctly, "Package is in a very bad inconsistent state, you need to reinstall it before attempting to remove it" |
| 17:31.49 | valerius | mgedmin "The package needs to be reinstalled but can' ffind an archive for it". Though, I have samba package in /var/cache/apt/archive |
| 17:31.52 | Creteil | anyhow, someone to explain what is the problem with builder reporting an error like : https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/strace_4.5.20-2.3maemo0/summary.log |
| 17:32.26 | mgedmin | valerius, dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archive/samba....deb? |
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| 17:32.43 | mgedmin | this'll fail in postinst |
| 17:33.01 | mgedmin | but after that you ought to be able to (1) manually fix postrm again with mcedit, and then (2) apt-get remove samba |
| 17:33.21 | mgedmin | as far as I remember, dpkg deals better with half-installed packages, and refuses to deal with half-removed ones |
| 17:33.30 | valerius | creteil "The package needs to be reinstalled but cannot find an archive for it" |
| 17:33.33 | mgedmin | so dpkg -i will improve the situation a bit |
| 17:34.01 | Creteil | valerius, please provide more verbose messages !! |
| 17:34.11 | Creteil | valerius, use pastebin |
| 17:35.41 | MohammadAG | so I got an iPhone |
| 17:35.50 | MohammadAG | and I fucked up the software in less than 2 hours |
| 17:35.52 | MohammadAG | do I win a trophy? |
| 17:36.05 | Creteil | MohammadAG, sure !!! |
| 17:36.07 | Creteil | :-) |
| 17:36.09 | MohammadAG | now it shows the Connect to iTunes logo when I press the power button |
| 17:36.31 | valerius | Creteil more verbose? ok.. |
| 17:37.40 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@host-89-241-10-50.as13285.net) |
| 17:40.20 | Creteil | valerius, what does 'ls /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba*' output ? |
| 17:41.41 | valerius | Creteil http://pastebin.com/1QSkcmLx |
| 17:41.58 | valerius | Not too verbose, though |
| 17:42.27 | Creteil | valerius, what does 'ls /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba*' output ? |
| 17:43.55 | Creteil | valerius, ok let me install the package by myself on the device, then I fail back to the same situation as you, then I can provide you the right things to do to remove it ... |
| 17:46.30 | valerius | Creteil http://pastebin.com/fgB4uXjh |
| 17:47.07 | valerius | Creteil ok, thanks! |
| 17:47.08 | Creteil | valerius, wait 1 I have installed the samba package |
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| 17:58.19 | *** join/#maemo msanchez (~msanchez@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) |
| 17:58.46 | *** join/#maemo valeriusN (~valeriusN@m213-102-204-252.cust.tele2.ru) |
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| 18:12.24 | Creteil | valerius, here ? |
| 18:12.58 | valeriusN | yep |
| 18:13.09 | Creteil | ok |
| 18:13.10 | Creteil | so |
| 18:13.13 | Creteil | hehehehe |
| 18:14.37 | valeriusN | Creteil You rebuillt the package? So, it is broken not only with post/pre-install scripts? |
| 18:16.01 | Creteil | valeriusN, no |
| 18:16.14 | valeriusN | Creteil I am not sure if the scripts could be extracted, corrected and copied inside the package again? |
| 18:16.23 | Creteil | Just created a script to correctly deinstall samba ... |
| 18:16.28 | *** join/#maemo mairas (mairas@nat/nokia/x-iviuygftxaxgwipm) |
| 18:16.37 | valeriusN | ah |
| 18:16.39 | Creteil | but before |
| 18:16.54 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 18:16.58 | Creteil | what does 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb' output (you can paste here in the channel) |
| 18:17.44 | Creteil | valeriusN, ssh the device to be able to copy paste here quickly ... |
| 18:19.06 | valeriusN | Creteil when I got problems with samba, I removed all packages it depends, but could not remove samba itself. So, I have libwbclient0 and update-inetd and samba-common removed now |
| 18:19.54 | valeriusN | no, cannot ssh because I haven't wifi available now |
| 18:20.02 | Creteil | ok so let me prepare a tarball with all you need to remove properly ... |
| 18:20.35 | HyperSnyper | valeriusN you could pastebin if you've got 3G |
| 18:20.51 | Creteil | valeriusN, how did you removed properly samba-common ? |
| 18:21.02 | valeriusN | HyperSnyper yes, I'll try |
| 18:21.17 | Creteil | valeriusN, on my side I have to tweak to remove samba-common & samba packages ... |
| 18:23.54 | Creteil | valeriusN, how did you removed properly samba-common ? |
| 18:23.56 | Creteil | valeriusN, on my side I have to tweak to remove samba-common & samba packages ... |
| 18:25.45 | valeriusN | Creteil I have three packages from this list in /var/cache/apt/archives: samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb update-inetd_4.31_all.deb |
| 18:26.01 | *** join/#maemo mairas (mairas@nat/nokia/x-pmjeuqqbgdsuxagy) |
| 18:26.01 | valeriusN | Creteil so, samba-common is installed |
| 18:26.47 | Creteil | are you able to install 'libwbclient0' with apt-get install libwbclient0 |
| 18:27.37 | *** join/#maemo slonopotamus (~slonopota@176.57.72.68) |
| 18:27.55 | valeriusN | Creteil ah, libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb is there too... |
| 18:28.02 | Creteil | tsss |
| 18:28.28 | Creteil | well, so copy paste the script I'm gona put on pastebin and run it !!! |
| 18:28.48 | Creteil | wait one I just check on my side it run properly ... |
| 18:28.54 | valeriusN | Creteil ok |
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| 18:36.10 | Macer | my fm transmitter is not working |
| 18:36.29 | Macer | is there a problem with advanced kernel and fmtx? |
| 18:37.26 | Creteil | valeriusN, on your device as 'root' : |
| 18:37.28 | Creteil | wget http://bigbob.fun.free.fr/maemo/Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:37.30 | Creteil | chmo +x Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:37.31 | Creteil | ./Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:41.41 | *** join/#maemo booiiing (~quassel@cl-959.dus-01.de.sixxs.net) |
| 18:42.54 | rly | How do I tell modest to check my email automatically or am I just impatient? |
| 18:43.09 | rly | I know how I can tell it manually to check it. |
| 18:43.15 | *** join/#maemo etrunko (~etrunko@32.104.18.200) |
| 18:43.26 | *** join/#maemo vdv (~vdv@ip-2-203-51-180.web.vodafone.de) |
| 18:43.33 | rly | (or is there another, better client?) |
| 18:43.46 | Sicelo | there isn't a setting somewhere in modest? |
| 18:44.15 | Creteil | valeriusN, is it ok ? |
| 18:44.30 | Sicelo | there is rly. Settings.. at the bottomw |
| 18:44.49 | rly | What is mecenfiadvsetupofflinesync? |
| 18:45.29 | rly | Sicelo: is that in the modest application at account setup or under the settings icon? |
| 18:46.01 | Sicelo | modest, tap 'title bar' > Settings |
| 18:47.51 | valeriusN | Creteil No, unfortunately, no. -- "E: The package samba needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it" |
| 18:48.02 | Sicelo | as for other app, i use mutt, there's claws mail too.. and others |
| 18:48.26 | Creteil | damned |
| 18:48.57 | Creteil | my script reinstall the packages needed from /var/cache/apt/archive !!! |
| 18:49.21 | Creteil | valeriusN, have you run my script ? |
| 18:49.44 | valeriusN | Creteil yes, they are there, in the apt cache |
| 18:49.49 | Creteil | valeriusN, have you run my script ? |
| 18:49.51 | Creteil | valeriusN, have you run my script ? |
| 18:50.53 | Creteil | valeriusN, on your device as 'root' : |
| 18:50.55 | Creteil | wget http://bigbob.fun.free.fr/maemo/Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:50.56 | Creteil | chmod +x Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:50.58 | Creteil | ./Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo |
| 18:52.10 | Creteil | valeriusN, I have made a script to ease the proper deinstallation of the samba packages and dependencies ... |
| 18:52.12 | valeriusN | Creteil yes, I run it. It installed libwbclient0, copied a trivial script over pre/post scripts and tried to remove all packages, and I have this error in the end |
| 18:52.13 | valeriusN | yes, as root |
| 18:52.21 | valeriusN | yes, I made it executable |
| 18:52.40 | rly | Sicelo: but is claws integrated in any way? Modest is integrated into the system at least. |
| 18:52.55 | valeriusN | yes, I run the script and it fails in the end |
| 18:53.07 | rly | E.g. can you tell claws to only update when connected via method X, Y, or Z? |
| 18:53.09 | *** join/#maemo vdv (~vdv@ip-2-203-51-180.web.vodafone.de) |
| 18:54.12 | Creteil | what does 'dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb 2>/dev/null' |
| 18:54.14 | Creteil | Please use pastebin |
| 18:54.38 | Creteil | remove the last part '2>/dev/null' |
| 18:54.58 | Creteil | what does 'dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb' |
| 18:55.00 | Creteil | Please use pastebin |
| 18:55.11 | *** join/#maemo slonopotamus (~slonopota@176.57.72.68) |
| 18:56.19 | Sicelo | heh, rly, afaik nothing else is integrated. guess you're stuck with modes then. cssu testing might have an improved modest |
| 18:56.28 | *** join/#maemo M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 18:56.43 | Creteil | valeriusN, is there a way you explain how you fail down to this situation ? |
| 18:57.09 | rly | Does Android have just as bad software? |
| 18:57.27 | rly | Well, that's a bit harsh. |
| 18:57.31 | Creteil | valeriusN, on my side I have break the uninstall, but just can't have the error you have (E: The package samba needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it) ... |
| 18:57.36 | rly | Most of N900 is great. |
| 18:57.50 | rly | But lots of stuff could use improvement. |
| 18:58.07 | mgedmin | Sturgeon's law |
| 18:58.28 | Sicelo | i can't comment on android. zero interest. i just heard android has many apps .. same apps though :P |
| 18:59.10 | rly | Sicelo: well, it also has 'whatsapp', which apparently the whole world uses. |
| 18:59.26 | Sicelo | not me ;) |
| 18:59.53 | Sicelo | i think Mohammad was working on it... i cold be mistaken |
| 19:00.28 | rly | Why is everyone so opposed to Android here? |
| 19:00.50 | psycho_oreos | why are you being offtopic? |
| 19:01.09 | rly | There is nothing offtopic about it. |
| 19:01.31 | rly | If you don't look to what the competition is doing you become obsolete. |
| 19:01.38 | psycho_oreos | since when did N900 have android in it by default apart from nitdroid |
| 19:01.52 | psycho_oreos | maemo is obsolete |
| 19:02.15 | rly | psycho_oreos: apparently lots of users disagree. |
| 19:02.23 | Sicelo | i'm not opposed. just not interested |
| 19:02.33 | Creteil | rly, maybe because I choose to buy a N900 running maemo not android and I do this choice comparing the 2 oses and finally choose maemo ... |
| 19:03.09 | kerio | the problem i have with android is that it has apps |
| 19:03.12 | kerio | not programs |
| 19:03.18 | rly | Creteil: I wanted to be able to ssh into my phone, which I believed was impossible on an Android. |
| 19:03.28 | Sicelo | nice one kerio ;) |
| 19:03.49 | rly | If you root your android you do get a shell, right? |
| 19:03.50 | Creteil | kerio, +1 |
| 19:03.51 | Creteil | lol |
| 19:04.03 | psycho_oreos | rly, people disagree on which point? maemo being obsolete? well yes if you still have the actual hardware you can still say there's community support. As for the android point I couldn't really care less about android |
| 19:04.07 | kerio | rly: even an iphone does that |
| 19:05.36 | Creteil | valeriusN, valerius, no more message from you, does I need to forget your problem ? |
| 19:07.00 | rly | What's so much better about Maemo than Android? |
| 19:07.11 | valeriusN | Creteil just a moment... -- I am copy/pasting yet... |
| 19:07.18 | kerio | rly: X11 |
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| 19:08.31 | luke-jr | rly: Android tends to have locked bootloaders too |
| 19:08.39 | psycho_oreos | android runs on dalvik vm, therefore less direct access to raw hardware |
| 19:08.54 | luke-jr | I expect my next device to ship with Android, but have a known way to install my own kernel |
| 19:09.02 | luke-jr | so I can install/use Gentoo and KDE |
| 19:12.08 | rly | KDE on a mobile device? |
| 19:12.20 | valerius | Creteil http://pastebin.com/d1qKn7A5 It complains about other packages too. I made apt-get install -f but it also has something with samba-common and mplayers |
| 19:13.00 | rly | kerio: so, you run big complicated applications on some server and use X11 to see them on your phone? |
| 19:13.12 | *** join/#maemo vblazquez (~vic@244.77.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 19:13.20 | kerio | rly: no, so the concept of "window" is not horrendously broken |
| 19:13.29 | kerio | only some stuff like modal dialogs work slightly differently |
| 19:13.29 | valerius | It has something about /usr/share/doc/mplayer which does not exist |
| 19:13.54 | luke-jr | rly: why not? |
| 19:14.01 | rly | kerio: how is it horrendously broken? |
| 19:14.07 | luke-jr | rly: N900 isn't a phone, and Maemo isn't a phone OS |
| 19:14.17 | kerio | huh... for instance, there are no windows in android |
| 19:14.18 | rly | luke-jr: on my desktop, on Squeeze, it is already way too unstable for me. |
| 19:14.41 | luke-jr | rly: wtf is unstable? |
| 19:14.44 | luke-jr | besides Konqueror :/ |
| 19:15.03 | rly | kerio: so, you mean that every application has to be rewritten for Android and you see that as a disadvantage? |
| 19:15.15 | kerio | yeah, for instance |
| 19:15.17 | *** join/#maemo Roomerlol (~Roomerlol@93-80-111-124.broadband.corbina.ru) |
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| 19:15.32 | kerio | or the fact that some applications can open multiple windows |
| 19:15.45 | valeriusN | Creteil ah, Purged mplayer and samba-common, successfully |
| 19:15.55 | rly | kerio: which application can open muliple windows on the N900, btw? |
| 19:16.08 | Creteil | valerius, my fiw seem to have worked properly !!! now you have another troubles :# |
| 19:16.10 | Creteil | You might want to run `apt-get -f install' to correct these: |
| 19:16.11 | kerio | every program can |
| 19:16.11 | Creteil | The following packages have unmet dependencies: |
| 19:16.13 | Creteil | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:16.14 | Creteil | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:16.16 | Creteil | E: Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt-get -f install' with no packages (or specify a solution). |
| 19:16.18 | Creteil | Nokia-N900:/home/user# |
| 19:16.21 | kerio | rly: for instance, abiword |
| 19:16.22 | rly | kerio: yes, but which one does? |
| 19:16.24 | Creteil | s/fiw/fix/ |
| 19:16.25 | rly | kerio: ok |
| 19:16.33 | kerio | or xchat |
| 19:17.01 | luke-jr | the terminal does too |
| 19:17.04 | Sicelo | rly: terminal |
| 19:17.34 | kerio | rly: the n900 is closer to a netbook than a smartphone |
| 19:18.02 | Creteil | valeriusN, for the new problem try : |
| 19:18.04 | Creteil | apt-get remove --purge freoffice libsoprano4 |
| 19:18.45 | Creteil | valeriusN, after that I think you don't have more error message about packages installed ... |
| 19:19.33 | valeriusN | Creteil Fixed! Yes, I first did apt-get install -f, then dpkg -P samba-common, dpkg -P mplayer, then apt-get install -f, then dpkg --configure -a, and the problem fixed! (that's after I run your script) |
| 19:20.04 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 19:20.04 | valeriusN | Creteil so, BIG thanks! |
| 19:20.06 | kerio | rly: i really want an openpandora :( |
| 19:20.09 | valeriusN | :-) |
| 19:20.21 | Creteil | valeriusN, No problem ... |
| 19:20.22 | rly | kerio: that's the video game emulator? |
| 19:20.31 | Creteil | anyhow, someone to explain what is the problem with builder reporting an error like : https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/strace_4.5.20-2.3maemo0/summary.log |
| 19:20.46 | rly | The one which they had trouble manufacturing, IIRC. |
| 19:22.09 | Sicelo | what instability u have with debian? |
| 19:22.35 | kerio | rly: yeah |
| 19:22.43 | kerio | but it's not only for games :) |
| 19:22.47 | rly | Sicelo: only with KDE. I don't really remember. |
| 19:22.51 | Sicelo | i have same (6.0.1), gnome, running on a P2, 350MHz, 640MB ram. |
| 19:23.06 | Sicelo | my N900 is actually more powerful than my system ;) |
| 19:23.12 | rly | Sicelo: I can't stop thinking 'OMG, how could they ever have released this?'. |
| 19:23.48 | rly | Sicelo: I am going to upgrade to 8GB of RAM :) |
| 19:24.05 | kerio | i want a n900 with 8gb of ram :( |
| 19:24.08 | rly | Because sadly, 4GB is too little. |
| 19:24.21 | kerio | the n900 would be a pretty beefy machine, if not for the stupid amount of ram |
| 19:24.31 | rly | Not for Debian, but for the terrible complicated stuff that I ask of my machine. |
| 19:24.52 | Sicelo | such as.. |
| 19:25.00 | kerio | minecraft! |
| 19:25.05 | rly | I can't wait until I have an Exabyte of RAM. |
| 19:26.38 | rly | Sicelo: I think for VMs 16GB would be more comfortable, really, but even without a VM compilation can take up a large amount of RAM. |
| 19:27.37 | DocScrutinizer | kerio: pretty beefy is a bit relative |
| 19:28.07 | kerio | DocScrutinizer: cpu is worth jack shit |
| 19:28.20 | rly | The machine powering Watson is pretty beefy. |
| 19:28.26 | kerio | machineS |
| 19:28.43 | rly | But still pretty smallish compared to the human brain. |
| 19:29.04 | kerio | meh, perhaps the brain is just really, really optimized |
| 19:29.28 | *** join/#maemo swc|666 (~gecko@unaffiliated/swc666/x-4934821) |
| 19:29.30 | rly | The brain evolved in our universe. |
| 19:29.38 | rly | Software has to work in all universes. |
| 19:29.43 | *** join/#maemo swc|666__ (~G.Gecko@irc.pentoo.ch) |
| 19:29.47 | kerio | huh... what? |
| 19:30.01 | rly | (which is another way of saying that it is optimized) |
| 19:30.40 | rly | It is likely that the brain encodes some invariants which are only true in our natural habitat. |
| 19:30.58 | rly | Or which are good default for the first few days/years of our lives. |
| 19:31.03 | rly | defaults* |
| 19:31.47 | rly | If you have just a machine, but it doesn't have any bias, then it doesn't do anything. |
| 19:32.41 | rly | Now, that's offtopic ;) |
| 19:33.45 | Sicelo | aiui nothing is off-topic unless somebody complains, or it's getting in the way of 'assistance' |
| 19:34.30 | jonwil | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1122022#post1122022 |
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| 19:36.27 | psycho_oreos | jonwil, I hate to say this but isn't that is what ukeyboard editor is for? |
| 19:36.43 | psycho_oreos | well at least to change the vkb bindings I suppose |
| 19:37.04 | jonwil | This is different in that its more like the "official" way (i.e. it does it like the way Nokia does) |
| 19:37.20 | jonwil | plus ukeyboard doesnt have a way to decompile existing vkb files AFAIK |
| 19:37.30 | psycho_oreos | ahh |
| 19:38.11 | psycho_oreos | though I do recall it just creates a new one and it was recommended that you create one with a completely different name, probably to prevent overwriting |
| 19:38.47 | psycho_oreos | nevertheless I guess editing vkb would be interesting. Now it needs is for some developer to maybe make vkb more flexible/user-friendly on N900 ;) |
| 19:39.08 | psycho_oreos | thinks Macer would've probably liked this |
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| 19:51.29 | rly | I miss all kinds of icons in Abiword. Do you also have that? |
| 19:51.45 | rly | Basicaly 3 out of 6 icons at the bottom or something like that. |
| 19:52.09 | Sicelo | yeah. i do |
| 19:53.26 | rly | Why do people upload such crap? |
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| 20:21.51 | rly | How do I configure in xchat that I don't want to see it when people join the channel? |
| 20:21.52 | *** join/#maemo maybeWTF (~cl@p5B1678AC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:22.15 | rly | Using xchat on a phone is fairly bad ass, btw ;) |
| 20:26.43 | *** join/#maemo dRbiG (drbig@unhallowed.pl) |
| 20:27.02 | rly | Never mind. |
| 20:27.21 | ShadowJK | /chanopt something.. |
| 20:27.45 | rly | Never mind means I already found the solution, in case that wasn't clear. |
| 20:28.10 | ShadowJK | It's not clear because the solution isn't visible :) |
| 20:28.43 | rly | Should I say no need to answer next time? |
| 20:28.52 | rly | <PROTECTED> |
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| 20:29.43 | rly | I don't think it gets any more geeky than this. |
| 20:30.20 | rly | Or, perhaps I could play some Life Role Playing game while being on IRC while holding a sword in my other hand. |
| 20:30.35 | ShadowJK | there's that nethack gui |
| 20:30.45 | rly | It's not really my style, though. |
| 20:31.02 | rly | I don't get what people find fun about nethack. |
| 20:31.35 | rly | Perhaps you need a physical friend that is enthusiastic about it to explain it, because I just saw a bunch of ascii art with some lame texts. |
| 20:31.53 | rly | I think I played it for like 15 minutes or so. |
| 20:32.11 | ShadowJK | that's a pretty good description of internet too |
| 20:32.14 | mgedmin | try brogue! |
| 20:33.27 | rly | ShadowJK: nah. Via Internet you can connect to interesting people in almost real-time to perform business of any kind, etc. |
| 20:33.51 | ShadowJK | nethack has in-game stores! |
| 20:34.12 | ShadowJK | And also you'll find the ghosts of hte people who went before you and failed |
| 20:34.18 | *** join/#maemo mintux (~mrg@unaffiliated/mintux) |
| 20:35.09 | rly | You know I just figured out that I don't actually need to hold the blue key above shift? ... |
| 20:35.18 | rly | That makes input a LOT easier :P |
| 20:37.38 | Sicelo | shift too. both are 'sticky' |
| 20:37.45 | rly | Is there also a mobile IRC client, which travels from machine to machine? |
| 20:38.23 | rly | So, basically you would have it on machine X, then you say 'move to machine Y' and then you could continue your session there, etc. So, basically 'cloud-screen'. |
| 20:38.58 | Sicelo | bouncer ;) |
| 20:39.17 | Sicelo | no client i can think of |
| 20:39.46 | rly | Sicelo: what exactly is an irc bouncer? |
| 20:40.04 | rly | Sicelo: I run IRC occassionaly on a server and connect to it from multiple locations. Is that what you mean? |
| 20:40.28 | ShadowJK | runs irssi on his server, and has irssi-proxy loaded in irssi, and connects to irssi with xchat through vpn. Seamless when N900 switches from wifi to edge and back, and also xchat on desktop connected to same thing |
| 20:42.02 | rly | ShadowJK: how do you connect to irssi with xchat through vpn (is that on your phone?)? What is 'edge' (3G)? |
| 20:42.21 | ShadowJK | edge is 2g |
| 20:42.30 | Sicelo | 2.5 |
| 20:42.38 | ShadowJK | I run openvpn on server and n900 |
| 20:43.30 | Sicelo | rly: a boncer is basically as u described. advantage is that u can connect to it even from 'dumb' devices. even Nokia S40 devices, via jmIrc |
| 20:43.42 | rly | Can you also have two clients running at the same time with the same username? |
| 20:44.35 | rly | I am not really seeing the details of ShadowJK's setup, but it sounds like I should also have that. |
| 20:44.35 | Macer | damn |
| 20:44.41 | Macer | messed my phone up |
| 20:44.48 | Macer | have to flash it |
| 20:45.01 | Macer | backupmenu was fail lol |
| 20:45.39 | Macer | is the cssu stable done? |
| 20:48.15 | *** join/#maemo teilzeitstudent (~teilzeits@77-21-70-14-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 20:48.36 | mintux | my host is ubuntu 11.04 I installed maemo-sdk5 completely .but I can't run it. I do this these steps according to http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation 1-run this http://codepad.org/EBV7qLCe and see this http://www.img4up.com/up2/87840202581001901719.png 2-after that run http://codepad.org/hFiGk1Bo and got errors => process 3475: arguments to dbus_connection_add_filter() were incorrect, assertion "connection != NULL" failed in |
| 20:48.56 | mintux | what shall I do |
| 20:50.03 | *** join/#maemo zap_ (~zap@178.130.21.28) |
| 20:52.00 | rly | Sicelo: what is the difference between screen and a bouncer? |
| 20:52.16 | rly | I.e. screen irssi |
| 20:52.26 | luke-jr | …. |
| 20:52.41 | luke-jr | with screen, you have to use a CLI client :P |
| 20:53.02 | rly | So, a bouncer is something like a cache basically. |
| 20:53.12 | rly | Can multiple clients connect to it on the same time? |
| 20:53.17 | rly | at the same time* |
| 20:53.56 | rly | Or rather a multi-client relay. |
| 20:54.45 | mgedmin | a bouncer is like an irc proxy |
| 20:55.01 | mgedmin | the real irc server thinks it's a client |
| 20:55.07 | mgedmin | the clients you use (on any OS) think it's a server |
| 20:55.26 | mgedmin | it sits in between and passes messages through -- or buffers them when there are no clients |
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| 20:55.57 | luke-jr | rly: yes |
| 20:56.19 | luke-jr | rly: Quassel is the ideal "bouncer" |
| 20:56.32 | *** join/#maemo jhb (~joerg@p4FEF5D23.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:57.41 | mintux | no solution? |
| 20:57.47 | rly | Eggdrop is a bouncer too, right? |
| 20:59.04 | kerio | luke-jr: NOPE |
| 20:59.05 | kerio | znc |
| 20:59.23 | ShadowJK | rly, nope |
| 21:00.12 | rly | Ok, I misremembered that, apparently it is a bot. |
| 21:00.40 | mgedmin | uses znc |
| 21:00.54 | mgedmin | (the only one I've tried; works; is not very user friendly) |
| 21:01.15 | kerio | mgedmin: are you kidding |
| 21:01.24 | mgedmin | no, I have very high standards |
| 21:01.39 | kerio | mgedmin: /znc loadmod webmin then connect to znc with your browser |
| 21:02.09 | mgedmin | first time I _hear_ about this /znc thing |
| 21:02.17 | kerio | lolwut |
| 21:02.24 | mgedmin | I thought you needed to /query *** or whatever and then do cryptic whatevers |
| 21:02.39 | kerio | well, /znc is basically /msg *status |
| 21:02.45 | kerio | except shorter |
| 21:03.06 | kerio | also wtf, how did you detach channels? |
| 21:03.10 | mgedmin | /znc help draws me an ascii table too wide for my xchat window |
| 21:03.16 | mgedmin | detach? |
| 21:03.20 | mgedmin | blinks |
| 21:03.21 | kerio | mgedmin: so enlarge it :c |
| 21:03.38 | kerio | mgedmin: either /detach channel or /znc detach regexp |
| 21:03.38 | mgedmin | this is a 1280x800 laptop, xchat is already maximized |
| 21:03.50 | mgedmin | I just join/leave channels in xchat like a normal person |
| 21:03.59 | kerio | why leaving them |
| 21:04.01 | kerio | D: |
| 21:04.07 | kerio | stickychan+autoattach |
| 21:04.23 | rly | luke-jr: Quassel seems to be a client and bouncer in one. |
| 21:04.56 | kerio | mgedmin: why are you using znc, if not for the extra stuff? |
| 21:05.20 | mgedmin | because I need a bouncer, and znc is the first one I found that looked like a lazy user like me might be able to use |
| 21:05.26 | kerio | yeah, znc isn't very friendly if you don't use it :\ |
| 21:06.43 | rly | I wonder why most networking (DNS servers, mail servers, webservers, etc.) stuff is so hard to configure. It seems that it is just job protection. |
| 21:07.08 | kerio | rly: huh... it's as simple as possible |
| 21:07.15 | *** join/#maemo zap_ (~zap@178.130.21.28) |
| 21:07.19 | kerio | shit's complicated, yo |
| 21:07.35 | mgedmin | there's a lower limit to complexity |
| 21:07.48 | rly | For example Freenet configuration is a lot easier than setting up Postfix. |
| 21:07.48 | mgedmin | doesn't mean every piece of software manages to reach it |
| 21:07.52 | mgedmin | sometimes I wonder if any do |
| 21:08.04 | rly | Freenet is much more complicated in how it works. |
| 21:08.15 | kerio | rly: do you realize the ungodly amount of stuff an MTA does? |
| 21:08.27 | mgedmin | at one point I thought I'd simplify my life and use Cherokee instead of Apache on my home file server |
| 21:08.37 | rly | kerio: yes, I saw a presentation about that recently from Tokio. |
| 21:08.51 | rly | kerio: well, that was just about email and how horrible it was. |
| 21:09.01 | mgedmin | regretted that after the first upgrade: old config syntax not supported, go do pointy-clicky adminy things in your browser again to set up everything from scratch |
| 21:09.18 | mgedmin | I felt like an NT admin and promptly went back to Apache |
| 21:09.19 | kerio | mgedmin: y u no use nginx :( |
| 21:09.28 | rly | Not supporting upgrades is epic failure. |
| 21:09.42 | mgedmin | ngnix scares me |
| 21:10.05 | rly | Also a GUI should always compile to human readable configuration files or some database. |
| 21:10.21 | rly | Not to some proprietary binary blob. |
| 21:10.26 | mgedmin | absolutely |
| 21:10.37 | kerio | lololo gconf |
| 21:11.05 | rly | Most closed source programs actually produce encrypted blobs for exactly the opposite reason. |
| 21:11.16 | mgedmin | there's a reason I avoid most closed source programs |
| 21:11.29 | mgedmin | many reasons, really, but let's not go there |
| 21:11.54 | rly | mgedmin: I think everyone with an N900 that uses ssh on their phone agrees ;) |
| 21:12.23 | rly | If you have really good contracts, closed source can work, theoretically. |
| 21:12.35 | kerio | not really |
| 21:13.01 | mgedmin | we just don't hear about the failures :) |
| 21:13.04 | rly | Contracts like 'all bugs will be fixed within 24 hours', etc. |
| 21:13.13 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_N9 (~ircchatte@bzq-79-177-202-146.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 21:13.18 | mgedmin | is that possible? |
| 21:13.31 | rly | mgedmin: likely no software company would commit to that. |
| 21:13.35 | mgedmin | there are bugs that take weeks to figure out the root cause |
| 21:13.38 | kerio | "all bugs will be features within 24 hours" |
| 21:13.42 | mgedmin | "we will react within 24 hours" is more likely |
| 21:13.51 | mgedmin | "yep, that's a bug. we'll fix it. someday." |
| 21:13.57 | mgedmin | always read the small print |
| 21:14.23 | rly | Making it open source introduces an element of competition. |
| 21:14.32 | kerio | the good thing about oss is that the developers actually *use* their software |
| 21:15.04 | rly | kerio: yes, more than with commercial software. |
| 21:15.24 | rly | Take for example Photoshop. I doubt that the developers can actually produce art. |
| 21:15.56 | rly | It's a good program, sure, but I can imagine that something like Blender would produce something closed to what graphics people want in the end. |
| 21:16.03 | rly | closer* |
| 21:16.20 | neal | merlin1991: What's the url of the version of the cssu that you wanted tested? |
| 21:18.30 | rly | mgedmin: I think it is possible to arrange for source code licenses for some closed source software, btw. |
| 21:19.24 | rly | I am also allergic to dual licensed code, because often the 'open-source' part is only open-source according to its legal definition not according to its spirit. |
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| 21:20.14 | rly | Linux drivers come to mind again. |
| 21:21.42 | *** join/#maemo ZogG_N9 (~ircchatte@31.154.49.237) |
| 21:21.42 | SpeedEvil | kerio: It depends. |
| 21:21.58 | mgedmin | Blender is not necessarily a good example of an open source project: it was closed source initially |
| 21:22.07 | mgedmin | although I don't know how much it changed since then |
| 21:22.15 | SpeedEvil | kerio: People interested in a programming project are not always interested in using that project much. |
| 21:22.32 | SpeedEvil | kerio: And can have strange, idealistic ideas about ways users 'should' use it. |
| 21:22.38 | SpeedEvil | JOSM suffers from this. |
| 21:22.57 | SpeedEvil | Java open-streetmap editor |
| 21:23.26 | SpeedEvil | Actual budgets help shittons. |
| 21:23.52 | SpeedEvil | 'we think this is a better user interface' -> test with lots of tester/users -> y/n |
| 21:24.37 | rly | I think in reality the testing is not really needed. If you build something great, you don't need a tester to verify that for you. |
| 21:24.49 | SpeedEvil | Yes you do. |
| 21:24.55 | SpeedEvil | As you may be an ass-hat. |
| 21:25.01 | rly | For example Google Maps, if you see that, you don't think 'wow, that sucks'. |
| 21:25.03 | SpeedEvil | Or do things wierdly. |
| 21:25.16 | DocScrutinizer | and only the worst ass-hats deny they might be some |
| 21:25.28 | SpeedEvil | Sure. But google maps is a very limited case. |
| 21:25.40 | SpeedEvil | It's a very, very simple UI, that doesn't do much. |
| 21:25.49 | SpeedEvil | Now, go on to a map editor, for example. |
| 21:26.00 | SpeedEvil | That is several orders of magnitude harder to get right. |
| 21:26.07 | DocScrutinizer | a CAD |
| 21:26.14 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 21:26.18 | DocScrutinizer | CAE |
| 21:26.42 | DocScrutinizer | worse: simulators |
| 21:26.46 | SpeedEvil | And then you've got to think about who you're optimising for. |
| 21:27.02 | SpeedEvil | Optimising for both the casual and expert user is _HARD_. |
| 21:27.12 | rly | I think Emacs basically nailed it. |
| 21:27.24 | rly | There are some improvements to be made, of course. |
| 21:27.34 | rly | But the basic model that Emacs has is great. |
| 21:27.39 | rly | It is self-documenting, etc. |
| 21:28.24 | rly | For CAE (assuming that is engineering), I would expect to be able to say 'place a bolt of 3mm at coordinates (1,2,3)'. |
| 21:28.53 | rly | Or 'Place the cheapest bolt selected from webservice X instead of bolt id 10' |
| 21:29.09 | DocScrutinizer | Emacs makes aunties cry shit |
| 21:29.30 | rly | So, basically today, lots of NLP with some sub language and basically collect everything users have ever input in a database and then try to make sense of it. |
| 21:29.42 | rly | That's what Google does too in the queries they receive. |
| 21:30.01 | SpeedEvil | You need to enforce rules. |
| 21:30.05 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately. |
| 21:30.16 | rly | There is some input stream and some desired behaviour in the mental model of the user and you want to map those automatically. |
| 21:30.17 | SpeedEvil | does 3mm mean diameter or length |
| 21:30.28 | rly | SpeedEvil: it could ask that. |
| 21:30.43 | rly | Rigid rules are a thing of the past. |
| 21:30.56 | rly | Sure, you need rigid rules in _some_ API, but not the end-user interface. |
| 21:31.54 | Juozapas | can u recommend some cli gtalk client ? |
| 21:32.19 | luke-jr | kerio: ZNC has weirdness still |
| 21:32.21 | DocScrutinizer | heads out screaming, as he already had the pleasure to work with those kind of "grammar free UI" |
| 21:33.34 | DocScrutinizer | **dust settles slowly** |
| 21:33.41 | rly | DocScrutinizer: Google is grammar free too and it works. Now, Wolfram Alpha doesn't. |
| 21:33.53 | *** part/#maemo mintux (~mrg@unaffiliated/mintux) |
| 21:33.55 | rly | The difference is that the domain for Wolfram Alpha is too large. |
| 21:34.31 | DocScrutinizer | google is a very simple grep web frontend with jus one single command and purpose |
| 21:34.52 | rly | Now, it is a bit more than grep. |
| 21:35.01 | DocScrutinizer | not really |
| 21:35.12 | rly | That's like saying a scramjet is a paper plane that goes faster. |
| 21:35.30 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 21:35.58 | rly | I thought the page rank algorithm was fairly 'novel'. |
| 21:36.17 | rly | They don't use that anymore exactly in that form, though. |
| 21:36.25 | DocScrutinizer | what is the possible number of degrees of freedom in google's results/reaction? |
| 21:37.00 | DocScrutinizer | google is not grammar free, it has an implicit ultrasimple grammar/semantic |
| 21:37.17 | rly | DocScrutinizer: there are things like 'euros in yens'. |
| 21:37.21 | DocScrutinizer | that's why it works |
| 21:37.34 | rly | DocScrutinizer: yes, but I think CAE is also 'simple'. |
| 21:37.48 | SpeedEvil | rly: Have you ever actually done any? |
| 21:37.52 | rly | Mathematics is too complex. |
| 21:38.00 | rly | SpeedEvil: I did some Autocad. |
| 21:38.26 | rly | SpeedEvil: and I read some tutorials about Solidworks. |
| 21:39.00 | rly | Solidworks is nothing else but the composition of primitive objects and composite objects with some finite number of simulations. |
| 21:39.28 | rly | But perhaps I missed something. |
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| 21:42.09 | rly | SpeedEvil: why do you think it is too complex? |
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| 21:44.17 | SpeedEvil | Because of the many ways to specify position. |
| 21:44.38 | SpeedEvil | Absolute, relative, angular, indexing in some manner to previous features. |
| 21:46.17 | rly | Ah, right, nowadays people use fractals to design buildings; I forgot ;) |
| 21:46.27 | DocScrutinizer | 'place a bolt of 3mm at coordinates (1,2,3)'. -- that's a system where user fetches LART after 3 minutes, as you have *no idea* where to get (1,2,3) from |
| 21:47.42 | rly | Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool. heh |
| 21:48.06 | DocScrutinizer | also useful for litter |
| 21:48.09 | rly | Ok, so what about a CAVE then? |
| 21:48.17 | DocScrutinizer | aka crap |
| 21:48.49 | rly | I think some 3D virtual environments are pretty impressive these days. |
| 21:48.56 | DocScrutinizer | CAVE might actually be a system with future |
| 21:49.08 | DocScrutinizer | the concept |
| 21:49.31 | DocScrutinizer | of direct MMI without layers of abstraction in between |
| 21:50.01 | rly | DocScrutinizer: what is MMI? |
| 21:50.08 | DocScrutinizer | I.E user doing things "the natural way" |
| 21:50.16 | DocScrutinizer | Man Machine Interface |
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| 21:51.08 | DocScrutinizer | Segway is so cool because it has a MMI that's natural to how you usually move your body |
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| 21:51.39 | rly | DocScrutinizer: do you work for OpenMoko? |
| 21:51.50 | DocScrutinizer | I did when OM existed |
| 21:52.07 | DocScrutinizer | ~ DocScrutinizer |
| 21:52.07 | infobot | methinks docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko |
| 21:52.31 | rly | Hmm, no wonder you know about everything there is to know about phones. |
| 21:52.40 | rly | Good for you. |
| 21:52.48 | mgedmin | would maemo (or android) exist if openmoko hadn't existed? |
| 21:53.02 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 21:53.26 | DocScrutinizer | in a sense of cause result here's no link |
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| 21:54.07 | mgedmin | I was thinking more like idea/inspiration/proof of possibility/etc |
| 21:54.14 | DocScrutinizer | same |
| 21:54.16 | rly | The problem with Openmoko was that it wasn't obvious that you could actually get a working phone with working basics (navigation, sms, chat, email, phone). |
| 21:54.27 | rly | At least, that's how I perceived it. |
| 21:55.06 | DocScrutinizer | you could say, if times were so much different that OM never emerged, there's probably not been any maemo either |
| 21:55.06 | SpeedEvil | I think the rot actually set in at the same point. |
| 21:55.09 | SpeedEvil | On n900 and OM |
| 21:55.12 | SpeedEvil | Qt. |
| 21:55.23 | DocScrutinizer | actually I think maemo started same time or maybe earlier than OM |
| 21:55.28 | SpeedEvil | They decided to largely dump a working user interface, to go to a more polished different one. |
| 21:55.50 | SpeedEvil | Admittedly, in n900 case, it was somewhat pulled off, but a lot of dev traction was lost. |
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| 21:56.26 | SpeedEvil | OM could have had a shipping, workable hacker-phone based on the neo1973, shipping for xmas 2007. |
| 21:56.40 | DocScrutinizer | rly: your perception was quite accurate |
| 21:56.43 | SpeedEvil | In may 2007, the phone stack was almost there. |
| 21:57.13 | rly | What happened to the 'IP' of OpenMoko? |
| 21:57.19 | SpeedEvil | But it then got dumped and reinvented, and they went for shiny new hardware that would solve all their problems (but diddn't) which delayed the project another year. |
| 21:57.36 | SpeedEvil | Another 18 months actually |
| 21:57.46 | SpeedEvil | And at that time, apple ate it. |
| 21:57.48 | DocScrutinizer | rly: I sleep on that |
| 21:58.10 | SpeedEvil | And the n900 ate the remaining chance of a significant offshoot project by decapitating the market. |
| 21:58.19 | DocScrutinizer | rly: honestly we placed all "IP" under creative commons |
| 21:58.20 | SpeedEvil | As the n900 was 'open enough'. |
| 21:58.37 | DocScrutinizer | or GPL |
| 21:59.14 | rly | I wouldn't mind for the government to sponsor such projects. |
| 21:59.31 | rly | As an investor I also wouldn't really see a big problem. |
| 22:00.02 | rly | But there has to be some kind of commitment to produce an actual product in the end complete with manufacturing contracts, etc. |
| 22:00.15 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 22:00.47 | SpeedEvil | wishes he had a billion or so to sponsor projects with. |
| 22:00.52 | SpeedEvil | And to lobby. |
| 22:01.04 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: then there was dash |
| 22:01.09 | rly | I probably also wouldn't like the legal risks, since I don't understand them. |
| 22:01.30 | SpeedEvil | Patents make the process a total minefield. |
| 22:01.30 | rly | It's sad that that's a consideration. |
| 22:01.57 | SpeedEvil | You should not be able to get a patent for solving a novel problem in the obvious way. |
| 22:02.15 | rly | There are now general problem solving methods. |
| 22:02.18 | *** join/#maemo jhb (~joerg@p4FEF5D23.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:02.45 | rly | That is methods that will _always_ solve the given problem optimally. |
| 22:03.04 | rly | Creativity is nothing more than a happy feeling people like to have to make them feel special. |
| 22:03.15 | DocScrutinizer | each other day I muse why patents worked in the late 19th early 20th century, but not any more |
| 22:03.30 | rly | It is because THE SINGULARITY IS NEAR. |
| 22:03.45 | rly | Nah, I don't know about that, but progress goes pretty fast these days. |
| 22:04.42 | DocScrutinizer | rly: some raher inspiring thoughts you toss around here |
| 22:05.17 | rly | DocScrutinizer: that's sarcasm right? (Sheldon voice) |
| 22:05.24 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
| 22:05.28 | DocScrutinizer | honest |
| 22:05.51 | DocScrutinizer | the problems solving method approach was inspiring to me |
| 22:06.06 | DocScrutinizer | a new thought, new PoV |
| 22:06.15 | rly | DocScrutinizer: it's not a very 'practical' approach, but it should work. |
| 22:06.20 | rly | DocScrutinizer: do you want the paper? |
| 22:06.52 | DocScrutinizer | I promise I'll not shout at you when you drop an URL here |
| 22:07.00 | rly | DocScrutinizer: http://www.hutter1.net/ai/pfastprg.pdf |
| 22:07.23 | rly | DocScrutinizer: that guy wrote a book on universal AI too. |
| 22:07.59 | rly | DocScrutinizer: and some related people improved again on that and there are some other related methods to that again. |
| 22:08.17 | rly | DocScrutinizer: there are about 30 papers or so that you would have to read to understand the field. |
| 22:08.29 | rly | Very interesting stuff, imho. |
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| 22:09.01 | rly | One of the systems allows for putting a number on the complexity of any concrete problem. |
| 22:09.23 | rly | So, let's say you have some input 1 3 4 5445435 43323423 2312 312312 and you have to sort it. |
| 22:09.33 | DocScrutinizer | gathered as much - but I'm brilliant on getting a grasp of a concept even while not completely understanding the whole system |
| 22:10.42 | rly | Now, suppose you don't know a constructive way to sort there is still a way to sort it, but that process 'the learning' has a number of steps associated with it. You could use that as some universal measure of complexity. |
| 22:11.09 | rly | I haven't actually read about that idea in the literature, so perhaps I should write a paper about it :P |
| 22:11.22 | rly | I think it is a bit too trivial to publish, though. |
| 22:11.46 | rly | OTOH, the whole scientific world hangs together by simple incremental steps. |
| 22:11.58 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 22:12.39 | rly | Some people are actually building a machine based on these principles right now. |
| 22:12.50 | DocScrutinizer | anyway, sitting here with my jacket and boots, on my way out |
| 22:12.57 | DocScrutinizer | o/ |
| 22:13.00 | DocScrutinizer | bbl |
| 22:13.04 | rly | Ok, bye. |
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