| 00:00.58 | Ken-Young | r00t|n900, I'm trying to find someone who might vote for it in the Extras Testing QA, so that it can get promoted to Extras. It has needed one more vote for quite a while. |
| 00:02.33 | tramp | what package? orrery? |
| 00:02.45 | Ken-Young | tramp, Yes, orrery. |
| 00:03.05 | tramp | what does it do |
| 00:03.13 | tramp | in short |
| 00:03.46 | SpeedEvil | Ken-Young: few mins, and will |
| 00:04.14 | Ken-Young | tramp, It's an astronomy app. It shows the night sky, for any time from 300 BC to 3000 AD, moon phases, times of sunrise/sunset, planet elevations, things like that. |
| 00:04.29 | Ken-Young | SpeedEvil, Thanks very much! |
| 00:04.53 | Ken-Young | s/300 BC/3000 BC/ |
| 00:04.57 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 00:05.52 | tramp | does it include the shift in jupiters orbit that sends a meteor stream lighting up our sky? |
| 00:06.05 | SpeedEvil | wonders why HAM is being so slow. |
| 00:06.08 | tramp | in 2742 |
| 00:07.05 | tramp | if so, i will so get it |
| 00:07.07 | Ken-Young | tramp, Well, it does list all of the annual meteor showers, it lists the dates, how much moonless time there will be during the shower, plots the radiant on the sky, etc. |
| 00:07.49 | *** part/#maemo DrGrov (~C.J@a91-153-77-41.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 00:08.11 | DocScrutinizer | orrery is just marvelous |
| 00:08.20 | r00t|n900 | ken-: if it can be installed via apt, why does it need promoting? |
| 00:08.25 | tramp | orrery |
| 00:08.37 | r00t|n900 | ( <-- n00b ) |
| 00:08.42 | Ken-Young | DocScrutinizer, That's very kind of you to say. |
| 00:08.43 | *** join/#maemo lachs (~lachs@adsl-84-227-249-138.adslplus.ch) |
| 00:09.13 | Ken-Young | r00t|n900, I think there are still some N900 users who just download from Extras. |
| 00:10.22 | SpeedEvil | HAM is being retarded. |
| 00:10.51 | SpeedEvil | I can't get it, though I should have the testing catalog installed. |
| 00:10.55 | SpeedEvil | getting deb |
| 00:11.05 | tramp | if its stable it should go in extras |
| 00:11.38 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 00:11.47 | Ken-Young | tramp, It's pretty stable. I'm just adding a few new features. I'll be pushing a new version in a few days. |
| 00:11.57 | SpeedEvil | I wonder why it diddn't tell me that there were updates... |
| 00:13.51 | tramp | the version with new features go in extras-devel, the older version, if stable, should be promoted to extras |
| 00:14.06 | SpeedEvil | Well - yes - for which it needs votes in testing |
| 00:15.35 | Ken-Young | tramp, But I will have yet another new version in Extras Testing soon. The QA process now takes more time than the interval between my orrery updates. |
| 00:15.35 | *** join/#maemo ferdna (~ferdna@cpe-67-10-220-35.elp.res.rr.com) |
| 00:16.18 | SpeedEvil | is annoyed at HAM. |
| 00:16.41 | tramp | shouldnt you just wait (or continue developing) before pushing the update then |
| 00:16.43 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, it should have poked me about the new version, I'd have installed it, and possibly remembered to vote |
| 00:16.51 | SpeedEvil | If the update is stable... |
| 00:16.58 | Ken-Young | Anyone with "Speed" in their name is bound to get mad as HAM. |
| 00:17.06 | Ken-Young | s/as/a/ |
| 00:17.13 | tramp | i dont like upgrading every other day, like with notepad++ |
| 00:17.57 | SpeedEvil | tramp: Well - don't. |
| 00:18.06 | Ken-Young | tramp, Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade. |
| 00:18.10 | tramp | if you another update ready, shouldnt you wait the 10 days before pushing |
| 00:18.35 | wmarone_ | no, you push the update when it's ready. arbitrary intervals are pointless. |
| 00:18.44 | wmarone_ | (for varying degrees of ready, of course ;) |
| 00:19.08 | SpeedEvil | Anyway - voted. |
| 00:19.22 | Ken-Young | SpeedEvil, Great! Thanks again. |
| 00:19.22 | tramp | so you end up with multiple versions in extras-devel |
| 00:19.41 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if HAM is getting upset at never being on charge for 4 weeks. |
| 00:19.46 | Ken-Young | tramp, I will not put multiple versions in a single repository. |
| 00:21.47 | tramp | if you already have one in extras-devel, and you have another one ready, and you intend to push it before the previous one is promoted, how do you not end up with two? |
| 00:23.20 | Ken-Young | tramp, Since SpeedEvil was kind enough to give me a vote just now, I was able to promote the version which was in Extras Testing to Extras. I'll put a new version in Extras Dev soon, and if I don't get any bug reports on it for a few days, I'll push that one into Extras Testing. |
| 00:24.40 | tramp | so you try to make the promotion cycle as fast as you update cycle, and slow your update cycle down if necessary |
| 00:25.15 | Ken-Young | tramp, Yes. |
| 00:26.09 | tramp | would you like me to page with every response as well? |
| 00:27.13 | Ken-Young | I tend to do it, but I realize with traffic this low, it's probably not useful. Sorry. |
| 00:28.48 | tramp | back on topic, thats what i suggested initially, but now i think if you have an anticipated update, its acceptable to have both in extras-devel simultaneously, that way the previous can be promoted while the newer is still testing |
| 00:29.44 | DocScrutinizer | that's the way things work |
| 00:29.50 | Ken-Young | I think having two versions in the same repository is apt to be confusing. |
| 00:30.25 | Ken-Young | I wish it were possible to remove a version from a repository, if you have a newer version to put there. |
| 00:30.31 | DocScrutinizer | I can't see anything massively confusing about it |
| 00:31.33 | tramp | how exciting |
| 00:32.00 | DocScrutinizer | it might just cause older version(s) to never gather the needed votes from testers, as every tester would think "duh, there's a new version, why test the old one?" |
| 00:32.09 | tramp | has anyone been able to run the mud-builder on their N900? |
| 00:32.51 | Ken-Young | DocScrutinizer, I'm afraid our few remaining regular testers are getting burned out. |
| 00:33.15 | DocScrutinizer | or simply bored ot defocused |
| 00:33.19 | DocScrutinizer | or* |
| 00:33.20 | Ken-Young | Yup |
| 00:33.37 | tramp | isnt the n900 still the most powerful phone? |
| 00:33.40 | Ken-Young | I'd have to confess I hardly ever test packages anymore. I used to. |
| 00:33.48 | DocScrutinizer | then otoh it's been like that since I'm watching this |
| 00:34.31 | Ken-Young | There's just not much completely new stuff coming down the pike, and it's not much fun testing the 12th iteration of an app. |
| 00:34.55 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
| 00:35.30 | DocScrutinizer | anyway no app ever gathered the needed votes without massive advertising / begging / bribing |
| 00:35.59 | DocScrutinizer | either here, or on tmo, or on random blogs |
| 00:36.17 | Ken-Young | A year ago things got tested pretty quickly, as I recall. |
| 00:36.20 | *** join/#maemo tchan (~tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan) |
| 00:36.45 | DocScrutinizer | maybe orrery which is telling a lot about that app |
| 00:37.00 | SpeedEvil | A year ago I was testing 2-6 apps a day - now I'm maybe doing one a month, if that. |
| 00:37.14 | Ken-Young | Same here. |
| 00:37.17 | tramp | i would test and vote, but i intend to spend my time developing |
| 00:37.30 | Ken-Young | Well, I never averaged 2-6 a day... |
| 00:37.52 | Ken-Young | tramp, What are you developing? |
| 00:37.55 | DocScrutinizer | I spend all my time lingering here |
| 00:37.57 | DocScrutinizer | :-P |
| 00:38.37 | tramp | first i would like to port a few apps like checkinstall, fio, cs-script, and some others |
| 00:38.46 | DocScrutinizer | Ken-Young: (2..6 a day) I'd be rather surprised if anybody outperformed our #1 powertester SpeedEvil |
| 00:39.12 | tramp | then i would like to make a craigslist watcher |
| 00:39.21 | SpeedEvil | I'm not top on number of packages tested |
| 00:39.23 | tramp | with a cli |
| 00:39.24 | SpeedEvil | - by a long way |
| 00:39.39 | Ken-Young | SpeedEvil, Who is, do you know? |
| 00:39.47 | SpeedEvil | wishes craigslist wasn't hopeless. |
| 00:39.57 | DocScrutinizer | well, yeah. You really *test* while others just vote up or down for the karma |
| 00:40.33 | SpeedEvil | http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/packagetesting/ |
| 00:40.56 | Ken-Young | Gosh, could anything be more pathetic than gaming the Maemo karma system at this point in time? |
| 00:40.58 | SpeedEvil | The easy way to get more karma without impactin gusers is to go and vote on all the i386 packages |
| 00:41.21 | SpeedEvil | At least that worked at one point. |
| 00:41.35 | DocScrutinizer | LOL |
| 00:41.46 | Ken-Young | SpeedEvil, Cool - I off to the website! |
| 00:41.51 | tramp | why must craigslist be hopeless. mmorpg markets are successful |
| 00:42.10 | tramp | craigslist is the only free online market i am aware of |
| 00:43.17 | tramp | anyway, ive seen free computers on craigslist, but they disappear fast. with a watcher app, you can catch them fast |
| 00:43.29 | tramp | or other items |
| 00:43.39 | SpeedEvil | tramp: where I am |
| 00:43.48 | SpeedEvil | tramp: I think it actually died. |
| 00:43.49 | DocScrutinizer | dang http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/itt_thanks/ |
| 00:43.50 | tramp | in #maemo |
| 00:44.09 | SpeedEvil | Before it did, there were perhaps 3 items available in a town of 130k |
| 00:44.35 | tramp | huh? we still have craigslist in oklahoma |
| 00:44.46 | SpeedEvil | I mean locally |
| 00:44.49 | tramp | plenty of items everyday |
| 00:45.14 | tramp | yes, locally in oklahoma city |
| 00:45.16 | SpeedEvil | Sure - but I can't take the bus to oklahoma. |
| 00:45.19 | SpeedEvil | It'd sink. |
| 00:45.26 | DocScrutinizer | ;-P |
| 00:45.44 | DocScrutinizer | put more air into the tires! |
| 00:45.53 | tramp | im surprised it died where you are, what happened, where are you |
| 00:46.01 | SpeedEvil | Central scotland. |
| 00:46.04 | Ken-Young | I used to travel by bus state-to-state in the US heartland. That was an education. |
| 00:46.17 | SpeedEvil | It launched in the UK (in the way it did) several years after it did in the US |
| 00:46.18 | tramp | so, what do you use instead? |
| 00:46.22 | SpeedEvil | Ebay |
| 00:46.35 | SpeedEvil | Hence it diddn't really take off in a significant way. |
| 00:47.01 | DocScrutinizer | actually I failed to know it until ~20 min ago |
| 00:47.05 | tramp | can ebay supercede local trading in everyway? |
| 00:47.16 | SpeedEvil | tramp: yes. |
| 00:47.27 | SpeedEvil | tramp: If ebay has a large enough offering. |
| 00:48.10 | tramp | how about a site that combines ebay with local items |
| 00:48.50 | SpeedEvil | You can't do that and comply with ebays TOS |
| 00:48.57 | DocScrutinizer | thinks ebay already did that |
| 00:49.13 | tramp | did they |
| 00:49.32 | SpeedEvil | The problem with competing against ebay is that now ebay has two rerigerators within 5 miles of me. |
| 00:49.39 | tramp | can you make an ebay app then? |
| 00:50.17 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 00:50.21 | SpeedEvil | There is an API |
| 00:50.41 | tramp | make an ebay app, that also downloads craigslist info...and then |
| 00:51.11 | SpeedEvil | Alas no time. |
| 00:51.26 | tramp | make a better craigslist site that sees regular updates, add pictures, profiles, irc |
| 00:51.46 | tramp | make it more trustworthy |
| 00:51.53 | SpeedEvil | It's easy to make a successful competitor to ebay. |
| 00:52.04 | SpeedEvil | First make a nice shiny low-bandwidth fast site. |
| 00:52.14 | SpeedEvil | Now, obtain a time machine and go back to 1993. |
| 00:52.26 | tramp | ok i wad going to say |
| 00:53.03 | tramp | its not that easy to compete with ebay, but to support ebay should be fine |
| 00:53.36 | SpeedEvil | Ebay basically limits extremely what you can do with the API |
| 00:53.54 | SpeedEvil | you cannot add 'competing' services into your app. |
| 00:54.15 | tramp | so this seems likely to be a multimillion dollar idea, right now. is anyone interested? |
| 00:54.53 | tramp | what do you mean? can you not list ebay items and process their info |
| 00:56.44 | SpeedEvil | You can create apps to show ebay items and auctions, but you cannot (and comply with the TOS of the API) present any other 'competing' site along with ebay listings. |
| 00:57.39 | tramp | it wont compete, ebay is just one supported site of the app |
| 00:57.49 | tramp | the app is site neutral |
| 00:58.04 | SpeedEvil | The API TOS do not let you do that. |
| 00:58.17 | SpeedEvil | Last I read them - which was several years ago. |
| 00:58.28 | tramp | youre becoming more vague |
| 00:59.00 | SpeedEvil | It said something like 'you cannot show in your app any items or data from other auction or free item listing sites' |
| 00:59.49 | tramp | why would it say that |
| 00:59.57 | tramp | i dont think so |
| 01:00.05 | SpeedEvil | Because ebay is a buisness. |
| 01:00.57 | tramp | i doubt that. but it a quick ToS check could resolve any questions |
| 01:01.56 | tramp | they are a business, and they dont want competitors, but this shouldnt violate that |
| 01:02.04 | tramp | brb 2 |
| 01:05.53 | tramp | back |
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| 01:07.44 | tramp | ok aside from a simple craigslist watcher, ive also made an irssi notifier for the n900 |
| 01:10.29 | tramp | the n900 is awesome |
| 01:13.37 | r00t|n900 | what else is new? |
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| 01:17.49 | tramp | some people dont understand |
| 01:18.41 | SpeedEvil | http://developer.ebay.com/join/licenses/individual/ |
| 01:19.08 | SpeedEvil | 3.1.2.1 'you can't co-mingle ebay and other content' |
| 01:21.08 | luke-jr | SpeedEvil: I wonder if that's legally binding |
| 01:21.30 | DocScrutinizer | YAY it lives! |
| 01:21.36 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: me? |
| 01:21.43 | DocScrutinizer | yoh :-D |
| 01:22.38 | SpeedEvil | luke-jr: If you violate the TOS - they pull the API key |
| 01:23.01 | luke-jr | SpeedEvil: so scrape their HTML? |
| 01:23.14 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: so what's so YAY about me all of a sudden? XD |
| 01:23.23 | SpeedEvil | Soemthing else says no spidering. |
| 01:23.38 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: rare guest |
| 01:23.39 | SpeedEvil | So you risk your app stopping working. |
| 01:23.52 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: I'm swamped these days :/ |
| 01:24.09 | tramp | ah crap, i cant open the pdf, im out of space on rootfs |
| 01:24.26 | luke-jr | SpeedEvil: I'd argue fair use |
| 01:24.52 | SpeedEvil | Sure./ |
| 01:25.12 | SpeedEvil | And arguing fair use doesn't make your app start wonrkin gagain once ebay are actively trying to blck it. |
| 01:25.19 | tramp | you can always update the app to the new chnages, like every youtube app has to |
| 01:26.47 | tramp | ebay cant distinguish the app from am,ny other browser if it doesnt identify itself thus |
| 01:27.13 | r00t|n900 | ever heard of jbidwatcher? |
| 01:27.24 | r00t|n900 | uses scraping, works fine |
| 01:27.46 | r00t|n900 | i bougt this n900 with it |
| 01:28.34 | tramp | heh |
| 01:29.17 | tramp | im going to have to spend the next day finding out what else i can optify to get 5 more meg on my rootfs |
| 01:29.38 | r00t|n900 | should run on it too... but likely a little too memory-hungry |
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| 01:30.20 | SpeedEvil | I like esniper. |
| 01:30.33 | SpeedEvil | Nice and simple command line sniper |
| 01:31.30 | r00t|n900 | speedevil: i like the searching and watching just as much as the sniping |
| 01:32.20 | r00t|n900 | that's also what the discussion was about i think |
| 01:35.48 | tramp | well, my first project was to port a few useful packages to the n900, but mud-builder isnt working on my n900 |
| 01:36.14 | tramp | it looks like ill have to manually optify and rebuild the packages |
| 01:40.00 | luke-jr | tramp: you know N900/Maemo is dead, right? |
| 01:40.47 | tramp | no i was not aware |
| 01:41.11 | tramp | i have only a suspicion |
| 01:41.49 | tramp | if it is dead, what replaces it? |
| 01:42.28 | tramp | the N9? |
| 01:44.17 | SpeedEvil | It's certainly dropping in popularity, as devices fail and ail. |
| 01:44.32 | SpeedEvil | And non-committed users move on. |
| 01:46.13 | tramp | until there is another phone that can also accept mouse and kbd, run kismet, ... |
| 01:46.33 | tramp | accept flash drives |
| 01:47.03 | tramp | run other debian packages like irssi, vim |
| 01:47.48 | tramp | why would i want the latest phone cpu when i cant run anything on it? |
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| 01:48.28 | tramp | or multitask so efficiently |
| 01:53.08 | SpeedEvil | I'm not disagreeing. |
| 01:53.46 | SpeedEvil | It's just that we're several months after the last new n900s were available through usual channels. |
| 01:54.02 | r00t|n900 | i had motorola linux phones before... were rather disappointing... |
| 01:54.15 | tramp | yes |
| 01:54.43 | tramp | i bricked my old captivate droid just flashing a new mod |
| 01:55.26 | tramp | the software was buggy and froze midflash |
| 01:56.14 | tramp | it also didnt support monitor mode on the wifi chip, and the firmware was closed source and too difficult to hack |
| 01:57.24 | tramp | i gave up on the phones that dont have developers in mind |
| 01:57.32 | r00t|n900 | shouldn't one advantage of a relatively open platform like mademo/n900 be that it's relatively easy to keep them supported? or is the n9 platform 100% incompatible? |
| 01:57.44 | luke-jr | tramp: there is no viable replacement, unfortunately |
| 01:58.12 | luke-jr | also, NITs are not phones |
| 01:58.27 | luke-jr | r00t|n900: Maemo is less open than Android, really. |
| 01:58.31 | tramp | NITs? |
| 01:58.36 | luke-jr | Nokia Internet Tablets |
| 01:58.59 | tramp | thanks |
| 01:59.26 | luke-jr | I would LOVE to see a replacement, but I haven't seen any yet |
| 01:59.34 | luke-jr | if history tells us anything, there won't be one for 3 years or so |
| 01:59.49 | luke-jr | (the time between Sharp's last handheld and Nokia starting on viable handhelds) |
| 02:00.08 | r00t|n900 | luke-jr: "relatively"... the only really open phone is the neo/frerunner thing anyway |
| 02:00.10 | tramp | funny, with droid i had to flash to get root, then flash something from Bobs Mod Farm to get buggy cool mode |
| 02:00.35 | luke-jr | tramp: root access has nothing to do with it being open source |
| 02:00.42 | luke-jr | that's merely a matter of how the OS was installed |
| 02:00.48 | tramp | i know |
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| 02:01.13 | luke-jr | actually, I do wonder if some of the Android phones could be wiped clean and run a viable Gentoo install |
| 02:01.53 | tramp | it might be more open, but i havent run into any closed source walls myself on maemo, and it seems like all this stuff i do is naturally supported |
| 02:02.14 | luke-jr | N900 wasn't too bad I suppose |
| 02:02.19 | luke-jr | if you want to rewrite userspace :P |
| 02:02.38 | luke-jr | but the hardware is pretty poor by today's expectations |
| 02:02.46 | luke-jr | even when it was released, the 256 MB RAM was really lacking |
| 02:02.47 | tramp | you can hack Debian and Ubuntu onto the droids, but its much hackier than EasyDebian install from AppManager |
| 02:03.03 | luke-jr | never saw the point to EasyDebian tbh |
| 02:04.40 | tramp | like i said, how can i drop $800 or so on hardware when it cant even run my progs |
| 02:05.26 | tramp | luke-jr: i know, right? we can install debian apps directly to the phone |
| 02:05.53 | tramp | it is useful for OpenOffice and Gimp though |
| 02:06.19 | luke-jr | ⦠it's not a phone |
| 02:06.31 | luke-jr | doesn't use OOo or GIMp |
| 02:06.37 | luke-jr | Krita is better than GIMP anyway ;) |
| 02:07.12 | tramp | is that new? |
| 02:07.42 | tramp | it looks proprietary |
| 02:08.06 | tramp | and, what's not a phone? |
| 02:08.41 | tramp | luke-jr: page for your convenience |
| 02:08.59 | luke-jr | Krita isn't too new |
| 02:09.02 | luke-jr | N900 isn't a phone |
| 02:10.35 | tramp | It's a computer with cellular capability XD |
| 02:10.42 | luke-jr | exactly |
| 02:14.55 | tramp | krita looks open source, i assume it runs on *nix, and its at v2.x. Odd it doesnt show up quickly on searches for free images editors |
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| 02:27.30 | tramp | Why aren't packages like g++-4.2 optified? It would save 23MB. |
| 02:29.59 | SpeedEvil | Because they are not designed to be installed on the n900 |
| 02:30.14 | SpeedEvil | If you want to do that - copy / into a chroot, and install from there |
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| 02:32.16 | tramp | they come from the maemo repos, someone could have optified it |
| 02:33.19 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: whatever you preach, Nikia marketed N900 as a *phone* |
| 02:33.28 | tramp | its one of the biggest pkgs and surely most commonly used |
| 02:33.32 | DocScrutinizer | Nokia even |
| 02:33.54 | tramp | yeah, they never fooled me |
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| 02:36.24 | DocScrutinizer | tramp: aiui that's not correct, it comes from tools repo and probably isn't meant to ever get installed to device. If it's in extras repo however, then it clearly got there by accident as all apps in there *need* to be optified |
| 02:39.42 | DocScrutinizer | anyway development definitely better is done in a chroot |
| 02:40.35 | DocScrutinizer | heck, I'd probably prefer to use a chroot even on my PC |
| 02:40.48 | tramp | come to think of it, it did come from tools. Apt makes it transparent to me. Is it possible for the community to optify it and override the old pkg... |
| 02:41.25 | tramp | i use g++ more for installing apps from source than development |
| 02:41.26 | DocScrutinizer | you can optify in situ |
| 02:41.39 | tramp | situ? |
| 02:41.49 | DocScrutinizer | on device |
| 02:42.02 | DocScrutinizer | "late optification" |
| 02:43.14 | tramp | yes i just did, after experiencing problems from it. It should be pre-optified if possible |
| 02:43.31 | DocScrutinizer | see /etc/maemo-optify-auto-opt.conf and /usr/sbin/maemo-optify-auto-opt.sh |
| 02:44.02 | DocScrutinizer | it should get installed and run in a chroot, on eMMC |
| 02:44.31 | DocScrutinizer | you don't want to clutter real device root with all that development crap |
| 02:45.02 | tramp | thanks. I can create an optified pkg for it, but can we upload it to the tools repo, or extras |
| 02:45.07 | DocScrutinizer | and especially you don't want to install interim development binaries to real system |
| 02:45.46 | tramp | why chroot? why not just install to /opt and symlink the files like other pkgs |
| 02:46.14 | DocScrutinizer | because of the reasons I explained in last 2 posts |
| 02:46.45 | DocScrutinizer | optification is a dirty hack |
| 02:47.15 | DocScrutinizer | it never should have seen the daylight |
| 02:47.21 | DocScrutinizer | ~optification |
| 02:47.22 | infobot | somebody said optification was a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3 |
| 02:47.30 | tramp | so it can be safely used for development as well as the typical use-case of installing from source (for most users) |
| 02:47.49 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: I saw no marketting from Nokia calling it a phone. |
| 02:48.29 | tramp | haha |
| 02:48.37 | tramp | good work luke-jr! |
| 02:50.04 | tramp | so how, more specifically, do you suggest the g++ package be moved off of rootfs |
| 02:50.49 | DocScrutinizer | chroot |
| 02:51.40 | tramp | u.u |
| 02:51.50 | tramp | chroot to where |
| 02:52.08 | tramp | the sdcard |
| 02:52.32 | tramp | /opt |
| 02:52.41 | DocScrutinizer | to /opt/MyDevelDir |
| 02:52.43 | tramp | i assume you mean / /opt |
| 02:53.26 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-10-16 04:30:14] <SpeedEvil> If you want to do that - copy / into a chroot, and install from there |
| 02:54.26 | tramp | you cant copy all of rootfs into the mmc |
| 02:55.05 | SpeedEvil | Of course you can. |
| 02:55.08 | tramp | i must be ignorant of your proposotion |
| 02:55.25 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:55.34 | tramp | you cant even optify the locales without problems |
| 02:55.38 | SpeedEvil | Even if you copy it including the links to emmc, it's not that large. |
| 02:55.57 | SpeedEvil | Copy everything from / into /home/user/chroot (or wherever) |
| 02:56.12 | tramp | but you cant even optify the locales without problems |
| 02:56.15 | SpeedEvil | chroot /home/user/chroot/bin/sh |
| 02:56.19 | tramp | or the themes |
| 02:56.21 | SpeedEvil | then dpkg -i whatever |
| 02:56.30 | SpeedEvil | You're not touching the original OS |
| 02:56.38 | tramp | ah |
| 02:56.39 | SpeedEvil | you're creating a clone of the image that runs in a chroot |
| 02:57.22 | DocScrutinizer | tramp: that's why optification got invented, otherwise they could have followed FHS without problems (they still could of only they moved things like locale and icons to the right locations) |
| 02:57.36 | DocScrutinizer | s/icons/themes/. |
| 02:57.38 | tramp | wouldnt that make you have to run different progs in different ways |
| 02:58.33 | DocScrutinizer | no |
| 02:58.43 | tramp | e.g... |
| 02:58.59 | tramp | /bin/sh would not be chroot'd, right |
| 02:59.11 | tramp | nor any other system program |
| 02:59.13 | DocScrutinizer | sure it is |
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| 02:59.36 | tramp | so its coped |
| 02:59.41 | tramp | copied* |
| 02:59.48 | DocScrutinizer | you copied /bin to /home/MyDevelDir/bin |
| 02:59.50 | tramp | exists on rootfs and emmc |
| 03:00.15 | tramp | as well as /usr |
| 03:00.24 | tramp | just those two |
| 03:00.35 | tramp | err |
| 03:00.47 | tramp | it would req /var and |
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| 03:01.14 | tramp | ...everything lol |
| 03:01.33 | tramp | i havent used chroot |
| 03:02.03 | tramp | im sure it'd work, i just dont know why yet |
| 03:02.13 | tramp | hmm |
| 03:02.27 | tramp | have you done this before |
| 03:03.14 | DocScrutinizer | see easy-debian |
| 03:03.57 | DocScrutinizer | see scratchbox as well |
| 03:03.58 | tramp | no, it couldnt work, the desktop shortcuts would need fixing, unless you can chroot hildon as well |
| 03:04.13 | tramp | (yes i was thinking easy-debian) |
| 03:04.31 | DocScrutinizer | you're not supposed to run hildon-desktop in that chroot environment |
| 03:05.02 | DocScrutinizer | it's your *development* environment, remember? |
| 03:05.32 | tramp | so only g++ is installed there |
| 03:05.40 | tramp | and other dev |
| 03:05.45 | DocScrutinizer | not your desktop&gaming&calendar&make-phonecalls environment |
| 03:05.48 | tramp | *-dev |
| 03:06.56 | tramp | ok thats neat, i should do that |
| 03:07.10 | tramp | but have you considered the other use case |
| 03:07.20 | tramp | of installing apps from soure |
| 03:07.25 | tramp | source* |
| 03:07.37 | DocScrutinizer | never done on maemo |
| 03:07.47 | tramp | wait |
| 03:08.03 | tramp | (...really!?) |
| 03:08.39 | tramp | no, cancel the 'wait' proceed with consideration of use-case |
| 03:09.12 | DocScrutinizer | I proceed with Saturday night leisure o/ |
| 03:09.19 | tramp | i had to install irssi from source just to get the latest version which didnt have a most annoying error |
| 03:09.46 | tramp | i also had to recompile it with --with-perl to run my notify script |
| 03:10.12 | tramp | yes saturday night leisure ofc ^^ |
| 03:10.42 | DocScrutinizer | and if you had done all that in scratchbox on your PC instead, you could've uploaded it to the repo even |
| 03:11.18 | tramp | unfortunately, my pc was stolen |
| 03:11.22 | DocScrutinizer | instead of cluttering your phone with all that gcc stuff |
| 03:11.45 | tramp | hmm |
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| 03:13.27 | tramp | still, for a simple linux user. non-developer, it is impractical to install scratchbox and interface with a PC in leiu of 'make install' |
| 03:13.38 | DocScrutinizer | nobody ever installs from source on maemo, as obviously the most important tools for that are frequently missing on the target platform |
| 03:14.15 | tramp | i didnt find it too hard |
| 03:14.33 | DocScrutinizer | as getting build-essentials and all the maemo and whatnot libs on the N900 was any less impractical |
| 03:14.53 | tramp | i just fixed the dependencies and installed my prog to get my phone to do wonderful things |
| 03:15.18 | DocScrutinizer | gn8 |
| 03:16.05 | tramp | i dont need build-essentials for most things. or at least it was a small issue if i did |
| 03:16.24 | tramp | i dont even remember if i installed it this flash |
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| 03:16.50 | tramp | nope |
| 03:17.47 | tramp | ew i had to install rdiff-backup and git from source to get it on my phone |
| 03:18.32 | tramp | i think git had problems from the repo |
| 03:19.07 | tramp | ive found installing from source invaluable for testing progs on the n900 |
| 03:19.42 | tramp | subsequently, i will be packaging them and uploading them to the repo |
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| 03:22.35 | tramp | so to sum it up shouldnt g++ be optified and placed in extras with higher priority than the one in tools? |
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| 03:26.18 | tramp | DocScrutinizer: By gn8, did you mean goodnight? |
| 03:27.42 | tramp | Thanks for all your input. |
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| 06:32.14 | arnet | hey, people who was good about usb host mode? |
| 06:32.39 | arnet | I have i2c-tiny-usb adapter, and ds1621 temperature sensor connected to it |
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| 06:33.03 | arnet | I can test with i2c-tiny-usb test ui program |
| 06:33.34 | arnet | However... for example, usbmode software forces N810 to restart when I switch it to host mode. |
| 06:33.48 | arnet | There's also usbcontrol, it seems it does not restart NIT such often. |
| 06:33.58 | arnet | But why reboot? |
| 06:35.55 | DocScrutinizer | bug |
| 06:36.24 | arnet | am |
| 06:36.32 | arnet | usbmode software bug? |
| 06:36.42 | arnet | usbcontrol performes better? |
| 06:36.52 | arnet | Will it help if I install community SSU? |
| 06:37.09 | DocScrutinizer | dunno, never noticed a reboot on N810 due to hostmode |
| 06:37.14 | arnet | hmmm... |
| 06:37.34 | arnet | I even have here two N810's, both are restarting sometimes... |
| 06:37.44 | arnet | ok, will try to find out more and post here. |
| 06:37.57 | DocScrutinizer | yeah mine too, but unrelated to hostmode |
| 06:39.25 | arnet | hmmm... for example, it can reboot when I close usbcontrol software |
| 06:39.45 | arnet | and it was previously switched to host mode. |
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| 07:16.31 | norayr | DocScrutinizer: okay, so, I turn it to host mode with usbcontrol - that's ok, then I run i2c-tiny-usb-demo - it's ok, it shows me temperature, then I close i2c-tiny-usb-demo program, and n810 reboots. At the moment when I close it. |
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| 07:41.59 | FIQ|n900 | Hi. I noticed that status-area-orientationlock-applet (and probably some other things related to CSSU) is missing Swedish text. Is this a bug, intended (hm...), or is strings just missing? |
| 07:42.35 | FIQ|n900 | s/or is/or are/ |
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| 07:44.16 | woldrich | god morgon |
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| 09:22.37 | zzbottom | Hi guys |
| 09:22.47 | zzbottom | Facing a problem with my speaker on my n900. Though it was hardware related and disassembled the phone like this |
| 09:22.59 | zzbottom | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41646&highlight=handset+speaker&page=4 |
| 09:23.10 | zzbottom | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:23.25 | zzbottom | Sound is working on the "stereo speakers".... but not on the "ear speaker". |
| 09:23.43 | SpeedEvil | you've tried flashing? |
| 09:24.08 | zzbottom | Not related to this problem. |
| 09:24.15 | zzbottom | I would like to avoid that |
| 09:24.35 | zzbottom | unless i have tried something easier |
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| 09:24.57 | zzbottom | Hoping someone has a quick fix in here |
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| 09:27.42 | SpeedEvil | You've first tried different headphones, I assume? |
| 09:28.02 | zzbottom | Not headphones |
| 09:28.08 | zzbottom | The internal speaker |
| 09:28.16 | zzbottom | There are two types |
| 09:28.28 | zzbottom | One that goes to the ear |
| 09:28.41 | zzbottom | and a set of stereo speakers |
| 09:28.50 | zzbottom | The problem is when I get a call |
| 09:28.59 | zzbottom | I can't hear people talking |
| 09:29.07 | zzbottom | unless I click "speaker". |
| 09:29.22 | zzbottom | Then it is routed to the stereo speakers |
| 09:29.38 | zzbottom | But then everyone can hear the conversation |
| 09:29.57 | zzbottom | So the sound is there |
| 09:30.33 | zzbottom | ... just not working on the speaker on the top, where you put it to the ear |
| 09:30.36 | SpeedEvil | Ah |
| 09:30.40 | zzbottom | yep |
| 09:30.53 | SpeedEvil | The speaker is available to nokia as a spare part. |
| 09:31.22 | zzbottom | Ok - you think it is a hardware issue after all then? |
| 09:31.32 | SpeedEvil | There used to be vendors that would sell it independantly - I'm unsure if it's still availabel. Get the maintainance manual, and google thepart number. |
| 09:31.43 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: any thoughts on sources for it? |
| 09:32.04 | SpeedEvil | (little speaker in phone) |
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| 10:34.23 | jiero | Hi, I got a problem: the N900's gtalk account not having any contacts. |
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| 10:42.27 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: sorry nope |
| 10:43.26 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: might be a starting FPC-failure as well |
| 10:45.32 | DocScrutinizer | I suggest Nokia care center |
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| 10:59.40 | woldrich | how do I retrieve an application that've been 'minimezed to tray'? what's the tray? |
| 10:59.47 | woldrich | specificly, xchat |
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| 11:09.12 | DocScrutinizer | good question - I think in xchat that option is pointless. At least it seems to do nothing here |
| 11:10.05 | DocScrutinizer | basically tray would be the system area and menu on maemo |
| 11:11.03 | DocScrutinizer | so *if* that xchat option does anything, it should show a button in system menu |
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| 11:20.36 | ErwinJunge | I've recently reinstalled iNes after a long time, but it seems to crash on startup now... Anyone here have experience with that? |
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| 11:41.17 | woldrich | I don't understand xchat. I connect to freenode, issue /j #channel, and it creates an empty window called #channel instead of actually joining the channel on the network I am connected to. sigh |
| 11:44.57 | x29a | works for me |
| 11:45.02 | DocScrutinizer | woldrich: eh? |
| 11:46.02 | DocScrutinizer | woldrich: that's exactly the way xchat works (basically same as Konversation does): new channel gets opened in own tab |
| 11:46.14 | woldrich | what? |
| 11:46.28 | woldrich | oh shit |
| 11:46.31 | DocScrutinizer | what did you expect? All channels cram up their text in the server tab? |
| 11:47.01 | woldrich | server tab? ... I expected to be able to switch between buffers, one channel per buffer |
| 11:47.19 | DocScrutinizer | well, that's exactly what the tabs are |
| 11:47.35 | woldrich | right |
| 11:48.57 | DocScrutinizer | btw the window (actually tab) won't be empty when you open it second time, rather it reloads history |
| 11:48.59 | woldrich | I think I'll use ii instead ... as it seems I can't get rid of xchat once it's started, without having to exit it |
| 11:49.30 | DocScrutinizer | errrr, sorry. I can't make sense from your requirements |
| 11:49.47 | woldrich | okay, look: start xchat |
| 11:50.29 | woldrich | connect and join channel. How do you make it not show up in the alternate view, as a window? I want to background it, or whatever it's called in gui speak |
| 11:51.36 | woldrich | I don't want to see the xchat window every time I go looking for another application in the menu or when I'm looking for another application's window |
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| 11:55.29 | DocScrutinizer | well, xchat IS an application. Maemo has no means and concept to hide applications from appchooser (aka taskswitcher) view |
| 11:56.05 | DocScrutinizer | btw if xchat was hidden there, may I ask what's your plan to go back to see it? |
| 11:56.37 | DocScrutinizer | I somehow doubt your xchat looks anything similar to http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10054 |
| 11:57.02 | DocScrutinizer | maybe you selected "open channels in new windows" in preferences? |
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| 11:58.17 | DocScrutinizer | that's be indeed annoying - to have 20 or 30 little xchat views in taskswitcher, one for each channel I opened |
| 12:00.17 | DocScrutinizer | may I suggest you test the config files at http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/xchat/ |
| 12:00.31 | DocScrutinizer | they go to ~user/.xchat2 |
| 12:01.30 | DocScrutinizer | I recall xchat actually had annoying default settings out of the box, when I first installed it ~2 years ago |
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| 12:05.20 | woldrich | DocScrutinizer, I'd expect either an icon where the battery indicator is, or, that when I press the icon on the desktop, it'd show me the window of the already running xchat process |
| 12:05.42 | woldrich | thanks. |
| 12:05.47 | DocScrutinizer | never seem *any* such app on maemo |
| 12:06.57 | woldrich | I think I'll go with ii, it seems much easier for my purposes. thanks for the clarifications |
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| 12:07.50 | DocScrutinizer | ooh, tell me what that is please. I'd really like to see an app that hides in system bar |
| 12:08.35 | woldrich | it doesn't |
| 12:08.40 | DocScrutinizer | MHM |
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| 12:08.52 | woldrich | http://tools.suckless.org/ii/ |
| 12:09.38 | trx | there is no "sys tray" on maemo, in qt libs that part isn't even present afaik |
| 12:10.07 | woldrich | how does pidgin do it? |
| 12:10.28 | trx | custom plugin/desktop widget i have no idea, i dont use it |
| 12:10.53 | DocScrutinizer | fails to see how ii is anything else than xchat on ncurses |
| 12:11.03 | woldrich | huh? |
| 12:11.11 | woldrich | ii isn't ncurses |
| 12:11.23 | woldrich | it's a filesystem based irc client |
| 12:11.58 | DocScrutinizer | uhuh, so I look at channels by doing # cat /ii/#mychannel; or what? |
| 12:12.16 | woldrich | something like that |
| 12:12.26 | DocScrutinizer | great! *cough* |
| 12:12.58 | woldrich | yeah. because you can easily build your own interface around it |
| 12:13.23 | woldrich | it's not very practical as the irc client you use everyday |
| 12:13.26 | DocScrutinizer | indeed, and you'll probably want to do that -- to end with sth like xchat |
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| 12:14.55 | woldrich | I'm only interested in specific 'highlights'; when a message matches given pattern, either show a notification or, which is the primary goal, execute arbitary commands. I'm not going to sit and tail -f and try to follow along in conversations :p |
| 12:15.16 | DocScrutinizer | ouch |
| 12:15.43 | DocScrutinizer | for that sort of usecase IRC is the wrong protocol, definitely |
| 12:15.47 | x29a | tail -f | grep then ;) |
| 12:16.06 | woldrich | DocScrutinizer, better suggestion? |
| 12:16.11 | bindi | n900 irc bot :D |
| 12:16.15 | bindi | "i have now left the building" |
| 12:16.16 | x29a | woldrich: use irssi with triggers |
| 12:16.37 | woldrich | doesn't sound as easy :) |
| 12:16.49 | bindi | hmm |
| 12:16.58 | bindi | are there any examples on gps location and python? |
| 12:17.18 | DocScrutinizer | yep, get a box, a bouncer like ZNC or BIP, and write a plugin that transfers data to your device *ONLY* when there's relevant info to transfer. Otherwise your data connection (possibly 3G) will cut thru your battery in no time, for nuttin |
| 12:18.07 | woldrich | the n900 is always connected to a power supply, and I use a 100/10 fiber connection |
| 12:18.08 | bindi | i don't trust google |
| 12:18.14 | bindi | i'm looking to write my own script and add it to cron |
| 12:18.30 | bindi | that reports the location every then and now with a simple get request |
| 12:18.46 | DocScrutinizer | woldrich: aah, abusing it as microserver |
| 12:19.02 | woldrich | something like that :) |
| 12:19.11 | bindi | lol 100/10 |
| 12:19.14 | DocScrutinizer | well, then probably you really want to use a IRC library or daemon, like ii |
| 12:19.20 | bindi | like n900 will ever reach that |
| 12:20.43 | woldrich | I'm looking for more n900's to buy, but when I checked the prices they're almost the DOUBLE of what it was when I bought the first one, 1.5 years ago. insane. They're much cheaper in the uk though |
| 12:21.51 | DocScrutinizer | woldrich: nevertheless I'd probably opt to go for sth like dropegg then, rather than using ii and building sth around it |
| 12:22.39 | archl | siriï¼ |
| 12:22.57 | archl | any siri like feature for N900 |
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| 12:24.05 | DocScrutinizer | what's siri? |
| 12:24.27 | bindi | iphone 4s new feature :p |
| 12:24.36 | bindi | speech to text and then queries wolfram alpha |
| 12:24.48 | DocScrutinizer | WTF is iPhone? ;-P |
| 12:24.57 | bindi | and some other fancy stuff |
| 12:25.15 | DocScrutinizer | aaah, raher smart. I guess it's a webservice though |
| 12:25.16 | bindi | http://imgur.com/ZqeHu like this... :D |
| 12:25.19 | bindi | yes |
| 12:25.29 | bindi | it uses woflram alpha for the answers |
| 12:25.42 | bindi | not for questions like that though |
| 12:25.54 | DocScrutinizer | well, implement a client to that webservice on maemo - much appreciated but I think it's maybe getting hard |
| 12:26.11 | DocScrutinizer | I know wolfram alpha |
| 12:26.31 | bindi | speech to text could be a problem |
| 12:26.48 | DocScrutinizer | but I definitely doubt stt is done on-board |
| 12:27.20 | DocScrutinizer | I bet they are offloading it to a server in the "cloud" |
| 12:27.27 | bindi | probably |
| 12:27.51 | bindi | hack that to n900 and i'll give you a banana |
| 12:29.04 | DocScrutinizer | exactly |
| 12:29.52 | DocScrutinizer | again I got that deja-vu feeling as if this feature been around since years, just apple did it new and in a working way now |
| 12:30.59 | archl | Until present to User in complete form. User never know it. |
| 12:31.22 | DocScrutinizer | anyway there's a semi-working stt daemon on maemo |
| 12:31.41 | DocScrutinizer | not for arbitrary text though |
| 12:31.57 | bindi | http://wiki.maemo.org/PyMaemo/Using_Location_API |
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| 12:32.07 | bindi | is the complete example supposed to keep running and printing the location? |
| 12:32.10 | DocScrutinizer | errr |
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| 12:39.58 | bindi | ah i see it lol |
| 12:39.59 | bindi | nevermind |
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| 14:06.10 | jonwil | hi |
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| 16:27.11 | barah | help how to install kernel 49 |
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| 17:17.06 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, you have an app 'booston'? |
| 17:17.24 | jack_lt | trying to get usb working on n900 |
| 17:17.31 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer51, |
| 17:17.39 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: kinda, yes |
| 17:18.19 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, looks like I need it http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1109383&postcount=320 |
| 17:18.36 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: booston is a script used by h-e-n GUI to start VBUS 5V supply |
| 17:19.32 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, it gets installed with h-e-n? |
| 17:20.29 | DocScrutinizer | the version 1 is included in h-e-n, yes. I published an improved version though, that mainly gives a lot of useful feedback in case of any errors like overload etc |
| 17:20.42 | FIQ|n900 | hm |
| 17:21.01 | FIQ|n900 | somehow i managed to open the Character Chart window in xchat |
| 17:21.08 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, where can I download it? |
| 17:21.10 | FIQ|n900 | Not that straightforward to use :P |
| 17:21.25 | FIQ|n900 | just a bunch of buttons, you can't see what's on them. |
| 17:21.49 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: moment, searching for it. AAh wait, it's on my box |
| 17:21.53 | DocScrutinizer | mompls |
| 17:22.39 | DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/sbin/booston |
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| 17:24.43 | FIQ|n900 | MohammadAG, ping |
| 17:25.53 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, thx, how do I use it | install it? |
| 17:26.24 | DocScrutinizer | copy over the existing booston |
| 17:26.41 | DocScrutinizer | I.E. replace the old booston with that new one |
| 17:26.54 | jack_lt | where is it located? |
| 17:27.10 | DocScrutinizer | maybe /usr/sbin/booston ? |
| 17:27.49 | MohammadAG | FIQ|n900, pong |
| 17:27.59 | DocScrutinizer | actually I'm happy when you tell me if it's located there |
| 17:28.31 | DocScrutinizer | you might want to run #> which booston |
| 17:29.26 | jack_lt | which booston |
| 17:29.27 | jack_lt | /usr/sbin/booston |
| 17:29.32 | DocScrutinizer | (sorry I can't tell for sure, but my system here is heavily modded) |
| 17:29.40 | DocScrutinizer | fine :-D |
| 17:30.22 | FIQ|n900 | I noticed that some CSSU-related things (like for example status-area-orientationlock-applet) are missing some translations. Would you mind if I send a swedish translation of these? |
| 17:30.37 | DocScrutinizer | so: #> root; cd /usr/sbin; wget http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/sbin/booston; chmod a+x booston |
| 17:31.23 | DocScrutinizer | FIQ|n900: go ahead, I'm sure it's highly appreciated |
| 17:31.47 | FIQ|n900 | Ok then |
| 17:33.12 | DocScrutinizer | FIQ|n900: probably best to attach it to a bugtracker ticket |
| 17:34.44 | jack_lt | 'shutting down 5V supply for USB! Reason: OVERLOAD - N900 can deliver maax 200mA VBUS got shut off' |
| 17:34.45 | DocScrutinizer | or better yet, ask MohammadAG what he thinks is the proper way to provide that patch |
| 17:34.47 | jack_lt | hmm |
| 17:36.18 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, any idea what's wrong? ^ |
| 17:36.50 | jack_lt | at least gets messages now |
| 17:37.13 | MohammadAG | Rewrite hen |
| 17:37.18 | DocScrutinizer | well, exactly what's written there: your peripheral overloads the N900 VBUS, I.E. needs too much power |
| 17:38.09 | FIQ|n900 | MohammadAG, what way of sending translations would you prefer? |
| 17:38.17 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, the keybd says power rating 100mA |
| 17:38.17 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: use a powered USB hub |
| 17:38.30 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, also for just a usb stick? |
| 17:38.31 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: obviously it's a lie |
| 17:38.43 | MohammadAG | oh |
| 17:38.48 | MohammadAG | thought you meant patches to hen |
| 17:39.03 | MohammadAG | FIQ|n900, just translate and make a merge request |
| 17:39.30 | FIQ|n900 | MohammadAG, ok |
| 17:39.46 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: or your cabling or N900 is defect |
| 17:40.16 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: or you have some weird software issue that makes booston fail like that (highly unlikely) |
| 17:40.52 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, using usb for power just works |
| 17:41.04 | jack_lt | e.g. to load the battery |
| 17:41.07 | DocScrutinizer | just hopes he hasn't introduced another bug into booston :-D |
| 17:41.42 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: just start booston (as root) from terminal, without anything attached to USB |
| 17:42.03 | DocScrutinizer | should "just work" |
| 17:42.13 | DocScrutinizer | then plug in your kbd or whatever |
| 17:43.01 | jack_lt | same message with external hub |
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| 17:45.36 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: just start booston (as root) from terminal, without anything attached to USB |
| 17:45.52 | jack_lt | /usr/sbin# ./booston |
| 17:45.52 | jack_lt | ./booston: Stopping bme |
| 17:45.52 | jack_lt | ./booston: ERROR in VBUS supply: BQ24150-Reg1=0x02 |
| 17:45.52 | jack_lt | ./booston: OVERLOAD - N900 can deliver max 200mA. VBUS got shut off |
| 17:45.52 | jack_lt | ./booston: Starting bme |
| 17:46.18 | DocScrutinizer | hmmmm |
| 17:46.27 | SpeedEvil | MOAR POWA! |
| 17:46.36 | DocScrutinizer | without anythin plugged in to the device USB? |
| 17:46.50 | jack_lt | I get the message when I plug in |
| 17:47.39 | DocScrutinizer | what does it do when you start booston without anything plugged in to USB??? |
| 17:47.54 | jack_lt | :/usr/sbin# ./booston |
| 17:47.54 | jack_lt | ./booston: Stopping bme |
| 17:48.15 | DocScrutinizer | so fine, boston works |
| 17:48.23 | DocScrutinizer | booston even |
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| 17:49.06 | DocScrutinizer | now plug in your plain USB cable, with open end |
| 17:49.32 | jack_lt | ok |
| 17:49.41 | DocScrutinizer | if nothing wrong happens, you plug F-F adapter to open end of cable |
| 17:49.58 | DocScrutinizer | if nothing wrong happens, you plug any peripheral to F-F adapter |
| 17:50.35 | jack_lt | goes wrong with the usb stick as peripheral |
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| 17:51.00 | DocScrutinizer | hmm strange USB stick |
| 17:51.00 | jack_lt | then I got the message |
| 17:51.26 | jack_lt | what do you mean by peripheral? |
| 17:51.51 | jack_lt | something like a usb stick right? |
| 17:52.09 | DocScrutinizer | usb stick, hub, 1GB HDD... |
| 17:52.15 | DocScrutinizer | keyboard, mouse |
| 17:52.48 | jack_lt | same when I connect the (empty) hub |
| 17:53.01 | DocScrutinizer | very strange |
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| 17:54.03 | DocScrutinizer | you're sure your F-F adapter has no severe contact issues? try plugging in another empty USB cable to the F-F adapter |
| 17:54.40 | DocScrutinizer | wasn't the first time those adapters had some issues |
| 17:55.43 | DocScrutinizer | I've seen lots of scary things, e.g. bent up contact spring that may touch shielding metal sleeve when anything gets plugged in |
| 17:56.59 | jack_lt | empty usb cable is no problem |
| 17:57.10 | jack_lt | it's get wrong when I connect that to the active hub |
| 17:57.17 | DocScrutinizer | so that's starting to get strange then |
| 17:57.42 | DocScrutinizer | what adapter do you use? |
| 17:57.52 | DocScrutinizer | DIY? |
| 17:58.07 | jack_lt | no |
| 17:58.12 | jack_lt | nothing DIY |
| 17:58.12 | DocScrutinizer | or something unusual? |
| 17:58.38 | jack_lt | adapter, you mean the hub? sweex |
| 17:58.45 | DocScrutinizer | F-F adapter |
| 17:59.44 | DocScrutinizer | I'm suspecting a swapped polarity for VBUS maybe |
| 17:59.58 | DocScrutinizer | plus and minus swapped |
| 18:01.22 | jack_lt | as far as I see other pictures of F-F adapters, they look pretty similar |
| 18:01.32 | jack_lt | http://www.dealextreme.com/p/usb-cable-coupler-extension-connector-2646 |
| 18:02.16 | SpeedEvil | jack_lt: Do you own a multimeter? |
| 18:02.51 | DocScrutinizer | hm, ok. So my only other "idea" is you actually got some nice collection of messed up peripherals - or your N900 has a hw-defect |
| 18:03.06 | jack_lt | SpeedEvil, probably |
| 18:03.48 | DocScrutinizer | try with a number of peripherals, like mouse, kbd, hub, all you can get hold of... |
| 18:04.23 | DocScrutinizer | preferably sth with an LED that lights up as soon as you plug the thing into any USB port |
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| 18:04.55 | jack_lt | if I connect the n900 usb cable directly into the hub, it starts charging |
| 18:05.23 | jack_lt | no error message |
| 18:05.40 | DocScrutinizer | if you can't find a single USB peripheral out of maybe 5..6 diferent that doesn't trigger that error, then I'd susoect your N900 actually has a problem |
| 18:06.35 | DocScrutinizer | errrr you are aware you must plug the N900 to hub's UPstrem port? |
| 18:06.43 | DocScrutinizer | for hostmode |
| 18:07.46 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, Upstrem port? |
| 18:07.52 | DocScrutinizer | not to one of the downstream slave ports that would fit so nicely to the end of that CA-101 cable |
| 18:09.22 | DocScrutinizer | bbl |
| 18:09.43 | jack_lt | upstream ports are on the side of where the adapter is connected to the hub? |
| 18:09.54 | jack_lt | wasn't aware of that |
| 18:18.14 | SpeedEvil | The port that would normally plug into the computer |
| 18:19.39 | jack_lt | there is such a micro port on it, that should be upstream right? |
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| 18:21.09 | DocScrutinizer | rrright |
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| 18:21.34 | jack_lt | http://www.sweex.com/en/assortiment/connectivity/usb-firewire-hubs/US014/ |
| 18:22.04 | jack_lt | at least it's not my n900 usb cable which is broken |
| 18:24.18 | jack_lt | there is just one upstream port? |
| 18:25.10 | SpeedEvil | always |
| 18:25.29 | SpeedEvil | (well - not in the case of USB switch-boxes, but for normal hubs) |
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| 18:27.46 | jack_lt | ok, got that message on any peripheral I could think of here |
| 18:28.39 | DocScrutinizer | one last suggestion: first plug in the peripheral then start booston (the chip does softstart which might help) |
| 18:29.48 | DocScrutinizer | maybe even try several times in fast sequence, like #> for i in `seq 1 10`; do booston; done |
| 18:30.18 | DocScrutinizer | it more and more looks like your N900 has a slight hw defect |
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| 18:32.55 | jack_lt | doesn't help |
| 18:33.38 | jack_lt | hmm |
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| 18:37.44 | DocScrutinizer | wait a minute |
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| 18:40.48 | jack_lt | sure |
| 18:41.19 | DocScrutinizer | nah, just a typo in error text, this should read Reg0: |
| 18:41.26 | DocScrutinizer | doesn't matter |
| 18:41.38 | DocScrutinizer | so alas no bug in my script |
| 18:42.28 | DocScrutinizer | of course you're running all that as root, yes? |
| 18:42.37 | jack_lt | right |
| 18:45.37 | jack_lt | ah what a pitty |
| 18:46.42 | jack_lt | kind of an very wanted feature for me ... |
| 18:48.06 | jack_lt | hmm maybe a last try after a clean install ... |
| 18:48.25 | jack_lt | e.g. reflash the device |
| 18:49.08 | DocScrutinizer | hardly fixable with a reflash, all the basic functions are really straight to the hw, no OS or kernel involved (well not much anyway) |
| 18:49.35 | jack_lt | strange defect then |
| 18:49.36 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, except maybe ke_recv |
| 18:50.51 | jack_lt | hmm maybe I have to find another one on the 2nd market then ... |
| 18:50.53 | DocScrutinizer | but nah, that would kick in as soon as vbus gets enabled, not in that moment when you plug in a peripheral... errr, lemme think a while about 1707 and OTG pin |
| 18:52.12 | DocScrutinizer | well, looking at syslog/dmesg can't hurt for sure |
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| 18:53.12 | DocScrutinizer | do you have a Y-cable, by any chance? |
| 18:54.08 | jack_lt | usb? |
| 18:54.19 | jack_lt | maybe one on my flash hdd |
| 18:54.33 | DocScrutinizer | also please check `tail syslog` or `dmesg|tail` directly after error appears |
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| 18:57.53 | jack_lt | http://fpaste.org/eRO4/ |
| 18:58.29 | jack_lt | <PROTECTED> |
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| 19:01.57 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, ^ |
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| 19:03.13 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 19:06.08 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: I'll look into it and do some tests here, I'll ping you later, or tomorrow |
| 19:06.29 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, ok thx man. |
| 19:07.11 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, not much time to stay online though tomorrow, but I might ping you if I get online |
| 19:07.20 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, I appreciate the help! |
| 19:09.57 | smhar | is it just me or the maemo repos are down for some time now? |
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| 19:14.50 | Sicelo | i installed netcat from them yesterday |
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| 19:19.55 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: is your battery well charged? |
| 19:24.28 | smhar | It always fails trying to get a list of updates since Thursday |
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| 19:38.40 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, almost full as I have to believe the icon |
| 19:39.33 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, charged it last night and didn't use it much today |
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| 19:42.06 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, I don't have to use the h-e-n gui when running the booston script? |
| 19:43.05 | DocScrutinizer | no, it's working stand-alone. h-e-n GUI just is using this script |
| 19:43.11 | jack_lt | ok |
| 19:43.29 | jack_lt | just to be sure |
| 19:48.00 | Sicelo | i also have my own issue with N900. stock RSS reader doesnt refresh any feeds since yesterday, complaining about parsing errors :( |
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| 19:58.22 | DocScrutinizer | jack_lt: I checked back on my N900 here, with most current booston script, and several peripherals, on stock PR1.3 (which is more of a reason it might fail, rather than a requirement) and can't find any strange behaviour as seen on yours. I actually miss any peripheral available that causes OVERLOAD error, so I had to short right contact of the USB F-F adapter to shield to cause a shutdown |
| 19:59.59 | jack_lt | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:01.19 | jack_lt | DocScrutinizer, could you rephrase that one? |
| 20:02.39 | DocScrutinizer | I caused a shortcircuit condition by inserting a screwdriver into the USB F receptacle of F-F adapter, to trigger the error you see |
| 20:03.10 | jack_lt | ok, so it might be the F - F adapter which causes the problem? |
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| 20:04.16 | DocScrutinizer | still I don't exactly see that but yeah you might want to test it some other way, e.g with a multimeter or something, or using a different F-F adapter |
| 20:05.49 | DocScrutinizer | if that's a weird adapter that swaps plus and GND lines, this would pretty much explain that behaviour |
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| 20:22.47 | norayr | DocScrutinizer: hey, I found the reason of reboots, that's a kernel bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3281 |
| 20:22.49 | povbot | 04Bug 3281: Sporadic lockup/reboot when USB host software releases peripheral |
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| 20:23.03 | norayr | However, it's marked as WONTFIX. |
| 20:23.27 | norayr | Anybody knows, if community SSU or some custom kernel fixes this? |
| 20:23.48 | DocScrutinizer | wow |
| 20:23.56 | arnet | yep :) |
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| 20:24.09 | arnet | And there's Till Harbaum also in the thread |
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| 20:35.33 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: arnet: >> If not, enabled serial console RD flag with the flasher AND *remember to disable it when you don't have the serial cable connected* (otherwise you get random data in the serial, such as SysRq keyboard shortcuts for reboot etc).<< hehe, also a nice one. Might explain why *my* device occasionally reboots out of nothing |
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| 20:45.22 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: you run with RD flag enabled? |
| 20:45.39 | DocScrutinizer | nope, but maybe... |
| 20:46.03 | javispedro | I remember it causes battery to die faster, but don't remember the reason |
| 20:46.17 | SpeedEvil | javispedro: the keyboard lights are always on |
| 20:46.26 | SpeedEvil | Well - sort-of |
| 20:48.42 | DocScrutinizer | arnet: I think this is a bug with removing modules, or sth like that |
| 20:49.05 | DocScrutinizer | refcount mismatch, init loop or deadlock... |
| 20:49.32 | arnet | eh... |
| 20:49.55 | arnet | I use n810 in a robotics project, it's connected to the several devices via i2c |
| 20:50.16 | arnet | and that's sad, that it's not stable. |
| 20:51.28 | SpeedEvil | I wonder if you build in the modules if it'd be stable. |
| 20:54.03 | ShadowJK | even kernel people say removing modules is a bad idea |
| 20:54.17 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 20:54.54 | DocScrutinizer | a long list of known (and partially fixed) bugs with unloading modules |
| 20:55.17 | arnet | I wonder if that's somehow fixed in community SSU? |
| 20:55.32 | DocScrutinizer | some handle to some datastructure in the module still lingering on -> *BOOM |
| 20:56.01 | DocScrutinizer | arnet: definitely not as CSSU doesn't even touch kernel/modules |
| 20:56.17 | ShadowJK | ideally you want to load all the modules you'll ever need at boot, and never unload. I'm speaking practically here... The on-boot is because many things request huge chunks of ram, which is against kernel policy and not guaranteed to succeed, bugt mostly works anyway, and best at boot |
| 20:56.23 | arnet | ah |
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| 21:04.02 | arnet | I just wonder what to do in order to prevent module unloading. |
| 21:04.18 | arnet | People say they just execute lsusb, and when it exits, nit reboots. |
| 21:04.33 | arnet | ok, and with n900 usb host mode is impossible, right? |
| 21:04.53 | arnet | I've read couple of threads about it, but didn't understand how it is possible to use it if there's no hardware support? |
| 21:11.15 | jack_lt | bbl |
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| 21:23.30 | SpeedEvil | There is hardware support. |
| 21:23.34 | SpeedEvil | It's just not advertised |
| 21:25.28 | DocScrutinizer | arnet: we hacked the missing hw support into kernel sw to enable N900 hostmode |
| 21:27.15 | DocScrutinizer | I.E. we exploit a testmode of the USB controller, and emulate/work-aound the missing bits of that test mode |
| 21:30.12 | DocScrutinizer | that's why you got "enumerate" in h-e-n GUI - the hw doesn't support automatic connect-detect in that testmode we exploit |
| 21:30.35 | DocScrutinizer | same with manual speed selection |
| 21:34.09 | DocScrutinizer | h-e-n GUI basically just is booston for the VBUS 5V, plus some handles to operate those hacks in power/hostmode-kernel |
| 21:36.32 | tramp | which is great. You must how exciting it is to have usb support on a phone. |
| 21:38.08 | claw | hey there i have a strange problem.... my camera is in use all the time |
| 21:38.58 | claw | /usr/bin/camera-ui is running |
| 21:39.10 | claw | if i am killing it restarts instandly |
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| 21:39.44 | DocScrutinizer | yes, that's what it is supposed to be |
| 21:40.02 | DocScrutinizer | camera-ui gets preloaded |
| 21:40.12 | claw | okay |
| 21:40.36 | claw | but when im trying to start flashlight for example its says : camera is already in use |
| 21:40.49 | DocScrutinizer | errr |
| 21:40.55 | claw | after reboot the problem is still there |
| 21:41.19 | claw | nothing is running that is using the camera |
| 21:41.34 | SpeedEvil | Does the camera work? |
| 21:41.58 | SpeedEvil | I've heard of a broken camera causing these symptoms. |
| 21:41.58 | DocScrutinizer | my flashlight works just fine: open camera-door, close friggin camera-ui, open system status menu -> there it is |
| 21:43.13 | DocScrutinizer | and yes I still think opening the cam-door should start flashlight instantly |
| 21:43.57 | claw | if i start nativ camera application its just black |
| 21:44.02 | DocScrutinizer | unless you push the camera button while sliding open the door |
| 21:44.09 | DocScrutinizer | ouch |
| 21:44.33 | DocScrutinizer | kernel update without re-installing fcam drivers? |
| 21:44.51 | claw | mh... DocScrutinizer |
| 21:45.02 | claw | is installiert bfs-kernel a few days ago |
| 21:45.04 | claw | lets see |
| 21:45.22 | DocScrutinizer | haha that one is missing any working fcam drivers |
| 21:45.41 | DocScrutinizer | afaik |
| 21:47.02 | claw | so should i turn back to advanced-kernel ? |
| 21:47.08 | claw | or is there a way to fix this |
| 21:47.47 | DocScrutinizer | uninstall fcam and all other augmented camera apps, (go back to power kernel,) find fcam drivers matching your kernel, install drivers and camera apps |
| 21:48.32 | DocScrutinizer | well, installing the apps usually will pull the drivers as dependencies |
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| 21:49.54 | DocScrutinizer | idont :-P know if bfs meanwhile has drivers now |
| 21:50.37 | DocScrutinizer | ask the maintainer idont |
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| 21:57.36 | arnet | okay, it seems I'll try my software with n900 |
| 21:57.55 | arnet | And, besides, recently I installed SSU on it, that's perfect, but vkeyboard stopped to work. |
| 21:58.00 | arnet | Is it a known issue? |
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| 22:01.00 | tramp | what is ssu, i havent gotten around to searching |
| 22:01.26 | arnet | CSSU, I guess. Community improvements. |
| 22:02.20 | tramp | when i have 10 apps open i stop opening new ones superfluously |
| 22:02.55 | tramp | i installed cssu once and it just erred |
| 22:03.20 | tramp | probably because rootfs was full |
| 22:03.34 | arnet | hm |
| 22:04.13 | tramp | im trying to check dependencies for a package im building, but im getting an error |
| 22:04.47 | tramp | (^im pretty sure it was the rootfs) |
| 22:05.45 | tramp | thats 2 different subjects, does that make sense? |
| 22:07.03 | tramp | [end of cssu subject] |
| 22:07.07 | tramp | im trying to check dependencies for a package im building, but im getting an error |
| 22:07.18 | tramp | $ dpkg-depcheck -m dpkg-buildpackage -b |
| 22:07.19 | tramp | chown: changing ownership of `debian/rdiff-backup/usr/share/doc/rdiff-backup-1.2.8/COPYING': Operation not permitted |
| 22:07.21 | tramp | dh_installdocs: command returned error code 256 |
| 22:07.24 | tramp | make: *** [binary] Error 1 |
| 22:07.26 | tramp | sh: bad signal name 's' |
| 22:07.29 | tramp | dpkg-buildpackage: failure: fakeroot debian/rules binary gave error exit status 2 |
| 22:09.27 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 22:10.19 | DocScrutinizer | ~cssu |
| 22:10.19 | infobot | cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
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| 22:12.25 | jonwil | hi |
| 22:12.30 | DocScrutinizer | hi |
| 22:12.51 | DocScrutinizer | tramp: is debian/rdiff-backup/usr/share/doc/rdiff-backup-1.2.8/COPYING on VFAT? |
| 22:13.10 | tramp | no |
| 22:13.27 | tramp | ~/src/rdiff-backup |
| 22:14.32 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, with a symlink a bindmount it still can be on VFAT, the path doesn't tell much about it |
| 22:14.57 | tramp | i was just checking |
| 22:15.51 | DocScrutinizer | df -h debian/rdiff-backup/usr/share/doc/rdiff-backup-1.2.8/COPYING will tell |
| 22:15.52 | tramp | its not symlinked and /home is still mounted as ext3 |
| 22:16.47 | tramp | interesting |
| 22:17.37 | tramp | Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on |
| 22:17.37 | tramp | /dev/mmcblk0p2 2.0G 1.5G 380M 81% /home |
| 22:17.55 | DocScrutinizer | mhm, and /home is most likely ext3 |
| 22:18.00 | tramp | yes |
| 22:18.36 | tramp | /dev/mmcblk0p2 on /.debian/home type ext3 (0) |
| 22:18.45 | tramp | ... |
| 22:19.09 | tramp | where did .debian come from!? |
| 22:19.22 | tramp | where did .debian come from!? |
| 22:19.44 | tramp | sorry repost |
| 22:22.33 | tramp | my mistake |
| 22:22.37 | tramp | dev/mmcblk0p2 on /home type ext3 (rw,noatime,errors=continue,commit=1,data=writeback) |
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| 22:30.27 | tramp | Any ideas? |
| 22:31.04 | tramp | I bet it would work if I ran it as root. |
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| 22:38.05 | tramp | yup, it got to dpkg-genchanges |
| 22:41.09 | jonwil | anyone know of some good tutorials on how to write status bar widgets or otherwise someone who can help me figure out all the stuff I need to know? I have the core logic of my Cell Broadcast SMS app running now, I just need to change it so that instead of writing to a log file, it displays UI |
| 22:42.37 | SpeedEvil | Woo! |
| 22:42.39 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 22:42.45 | SpeedEvil | Alas - no. |
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| 22:43.19 | SpeedEvil | There is a widget to remove the operator name, and also one to add a signal strength for wifi in numbers, which might be worth a look |
| 22:45.07 | jonwil | where can I find these widgets? |
| 22:46.21 | tramp | i saw them in the repos |
| 22:46.44 | tramp | just the latter one |
| 22:47.12 | jonwil | ok |
| 22:48.35 | jonwil | hmmm should I post on the forums or mailing list to see if anyone can help? |
| 22:48.44 | SpeedEvil | http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=status&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same |
| 22:48.49 | SpeedEvil | Post _everywhere_ |
| 22:54.15 | jonwil | Which forum would be the most appropriate? |
| 22:54.39 | tramp | talk.maemo.org? |
| 22:54.48 | jonwil | I mean which forum on tmo |
| 22:56.53 | tramp | hmm |
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| 22:58.06 | tramp | theyre forums are just too organized to decide |
| 22:58.13 | tramp | their* |
| 23:03.38 | jonwil | maybe I should start with a mailing list post |
| 23:03.47 | jonwil | all the technical people hang out there |
| 23:03.57 | tramp | sounds good |
| 23:04.05 | jonwil | mostly because of the low signal-to-noise ratio on tmo |
| 23:04.26 | tramp | and because its a mailing list |
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