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| 00:21.22 | luke-jr | will Recorder get both channels? |
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| 06:13.02 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: ?? recorder, both channels? |
| 06:13.27 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: which both channels? |
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| 06:14.09 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: in a call |
| 06:14.22 | DocScrutinizer | aaaah, of course, yes |
| 06:14.31 | doc|home | applying for a webdeveloper job with nokia's mobile division, bad move? |
| 06:14.49 | doc|home | I don't even know why they need a web developer. Didn't they kill ovi? |
| 06:16.01 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: at least last time I checked I think it did |
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| 06:20.21 | ruskie | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/ |
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| 06:24.21 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: simple answer: don't buy it |
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| 06:24.54 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: don't buy computers? |
| 06:24.56 | DocScrutinizer | simple answer for N9+aegis: don't buy it |
| 06:25.12 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: don't "convert" anyone to Linux ever again? |
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| 06:26.29 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: I "convert to linux" my clients prior to them buying their hardware, and I tell them what hardware to buy |
| 06:26.37 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, did you actually read the article? |
| 06:27.11 | DocScrutinizer | no, I gather it's a friggin PC with Fritzchip and locked bootloader |
| 06:27.31 | DocScrutinizer | aka Bios |
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| 06:28.38 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, no |
| 06:28.51 | DocScrutinizer | I've not heard of any technology to retroactively kill PCs that allow boting via Grub |
| 06:28.58 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, it's M$ trying to push trusted computing inte UEFI as mandatory |
| 06:29.02 | ruskie | with them holding the keys |
| 06:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | so why "No"? That's exactly what I said |
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| 06:30.43 | DocScrutinizer | and btw that's exactly what Nokia did with Aegis |
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| 06:33.26 | DocScrutinizer | and M$ is trying to push TC since errr >10 years now? |
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| 06:35.24 | DocScrutinizer | and the answer of any reasonable hw office in any large company been exactly like mine: Don't buy it, we want to be in control of our hw, not to delegate control to friggin $random-manufacturer |
| 06:35.54 | DocScrutinizer | on a related topic: |
| 06:35.56 | DocScrutinizer | ~aegis |
| 06:35.56 | infobot | methinks aegis is http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 06:40.32 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: so you see no interest in bringing average Joe Desktop User to Linux? |
| 06:40.56 | DocScrutinizer | luke-jr: sorry, your question makes no sense to me |
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| 06:41.21 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: you know, the guy who bought his PC at BestBuy and didn't know Linux existed until he met you |
| 06:41.46 | luke-jr | who wants to give it a try, but OOPS-- it's impossible because his PC will never run anything but Windows |
| 06:41.47 | DocScrutinizer | too bad for him I have to tell him he bought junk |
| 06:41.58 | luke-jr | and he'll go on using Windows |
| 06:42.06 | DocScrutinizer | :shrug: |
| 06:42.10 | luke-jr | along with the rest of the world who will never change because they will never have a choice |
| 06:42.22 | luke-jr | not everyone can build computers |
| 06:42.58 | DocScrutinizer | could be worse, he could have bought an N9 and be interested in true linux, and I had a real hard afternood to explain to him why HARM with aegis isn't true linux |
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| 06:43.10 | luke-jr | and no PC manuf is going to give up Windows OEM just so people can use Linux, so long as Windows has the marketshare it does |
| 06:43.36 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: the handheld market has never been truly free |
| 06:43.42 | luke-jr | the desktop market has |
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| 06:44.30 | DocScrutinizer | well, I think I said everything that's relevant to explain my take on that. Why don't we have TC in all computers since 10 years? |
| 06:49.37 | luke-jr | DocScrutinizer: at least TC could be disabled |
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| 06:50.01 | luke-jr | as to why-- because people made a fuss |
| 06:50.13 | luke-jr | if people don't make a fuss because "oh, it'll never happen", it WILL happen |
| 06:50.20 | DocScrutinizer | BS, what's the difference between TC and the shit ruskie explained this new M$ initiative plans to do? |
| 06:51.09 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, M$ and vendors control the keys and say what is allowed and isn't allowed... there is no disabling... they say what is and isn't allowed to run |
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| 06:51.34 | DocScrutinizer | it's just initiative #736 of M$ et al to force TC into the market |
| 06:52.02 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: so why you're teaching *me* about that? |
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| 06:54.25 | DocScrutinizer | your IBM or Intl laptop is exactly such a machine, afaik they all have TPM aka fritzchip since years, just nobody want to use it, and if they dare to ship it with a BIOS that forces TPM into efect and can't get replaced by another BIOS that allows to run the system with fritzchip killed, no major company will allow to use that hardware for their business |
| 06:56.44 | DocScrutinizer | so maybe major hw / mainboard manufs will support it in their BIOS in future, but if they don't want to lose the business sector they want to make clear there's a way to install a BIOS that allows to switch off the TC crap |
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| 06:58.46 | DocScrutinizer | and M$ maybe will ship a windows that needs mandatory TC but they won't be able to sell that "home version" to business sector, so they won't stop producing windows versions that run without fritzchip, and you see what that implies for the mainboard manufs in turn |
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| 07:01.48 | DocScrutinizer | hell, there are even FOSS BIOS implementations around, don't you know? |
| 07:03.56 | ruskie | this is all assuming flashing tools won't be blacklisted |
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| 07:04.34 | DocScrutinizer | no it is assuming industry will refuse to buy hw that comes with flashing tools "blacklisted" |
| 07:05.57 | DocScrutinizer | try to blacklist my JTAG or EPROM flasher |
| 07:06.06 | DocScrutinizer | ;-) |
| 07:07.12 | DocScrutinizer | though that's bad enough for big business to reject the hw, if there's no way to reflash *arbitrary* BIOS without special hardware flashers |
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| 07:09.16 | nid0 | fwiw, tpm modules are frequently used for proper beneficial reasons, just not that often in desktops. |
| 07:09.35 | DocScrutinizer | I really don't know why you worry about PCs and laptops where big business will care about TC never achieving world dominion, while you don't say a work about meego HARM and aegis, where Nokia already shipped a device that has all the shit in place and working just fine |
| 07:10.17 | DocScrutinizer | s/a work/a word/ |
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| 07:11.15 | DocScrutinizer | just because meego allegedly is linux and not winP7? duh! |
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| 07:13.40 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, no because mobile devices have always been f... up |
| 07:13.42 | DocScrutinizer | rumour has it the HARM-beta2 firmware now actually allows you to flash your alternative "true linux", but that's yet to get confirmed. Beta1 didn't, it was a locked down hardware+firmware system exactly like the ones you moan about some posts up, for "real PCs" |
| 07:13.54 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: that's BS |
| 07:14.08 | DocScrutinizer | N900 is as open as it gets, with respect to that |
| 07:14.19 | ruskie | there are exceptions |
| 07:14.29 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 07:15.14 | DocScrutinizer | I detect selective blindness and won't continue this convo until you do sth about it |
| 07:16.00 | ruskie | well you seem to have the same issue... "don't buy" aka ignore that those things exist |
| 07:16.18 | DocScrutinizer | bullshit |
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| 07:17.12 | ruskie | and frankly until the n9 is out I won't really be able to comment on it since other than the stuff that's been reported about n950 can't really say anything |
| 07:17.24 | DocScrutinizer | throws a can with paint and a brush at ruskie, so he can paint some banners for his 1-man-demo in front of M$-headquarters |
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| 07:17.43 | ruskie | haha |
| 07:17.52 | ruskie | I don't like anyone doing this |
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| 07:18.01 | ruskie | not just m$ |
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| 07:18.48 | DocScrutinizer | so you're accusing *ME* to *ignore* TC madness? WTF?! |
| 07:18.55 | DocScrutinizer | ~factinfo aegis |
| 07:18.55 | infobot | aegis -- created by DocScrutinizer <~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Jul 4 01:10:47 2011 (80 days); last modified at Sun Aug 7 12:42:40 2011 by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 39 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 42m 59s ago. |
| 07:19.52 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: please get another cup of coffe, then come back with this topic in a few hours when your mind finally awakened |
| 07:20.28 | ruskie | so why aren't you doing something with your JTAG and EPROM flasher to get rid of aegis? |
| 07:20.29 | DocScrutinizer | oo |
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| 07:20.45 | ruskie | and no I don't drink coffee but true.. it is a bit early for my brain |
| 07:21.15 | DocScrutinizer | becuase there's no FOSS xloader with proper signature matching that of Nokia, fool! |
| 07:21.51 | thresh | hello |
| 07:21.55 | DocScrutinizer | and I'm the one bitching most about aegis being BS |
| 07:22.13 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, probably because you're the ony trying to work around it the most |
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| 07:22.20 | DocScrutinizer | so please stop annoying and blaming me, while you do exactly NUTTIN |
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| 07:23.02 | DocScrutinizer | except moaning about TC in PCs while you ignore TC in our beloved phones |
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| 07:41.11 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: there are chanlogs of #harmattan, and there's a whole forum about meego(-harmattan), esp with that thread: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575 - you're free to inform yourself and contribute there before it's too late |
| 07:41.20 | thresh | .зÑке |
| 07:41.25 | thresh | duh. sorry. |
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| 08:48.20 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, interesting thread |
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| 08:58.01 | ErwinJunge | Wow. Aegis won't even allow you to read the kernel logs? Talk about impossible development... |
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| 09:02.19 | DocScrutinizer | ErwinJunge: that's ot the point though. Aegis will forbid you doing whatever *NOKIA* feels you shouldn't do (or simply can't think of why you'd ever want to do that), so you're completely under the random whim of those who control aegis config, and there's no way to regain full control of your system. THAT is the crux of all TC (and aegis is a true TC implementation), not the question if this TC is configured in a way it allows you to do X |
| 09:02.21 | DocScrutinizer | or forbids Y. |
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| 09:03.51 | DocScrutinizer | after all Nokia can change the policies any day, 3 times a day if they like to |
| 09:04.06 | ErwinJunge | Scary stuff, this move to TC from all sides. |
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| 09:04.32 | ErwinJunge | I can build my own pc, but on the laptop and mobile front it's starting to look very 1984ish... |
| 09:06.47 | amiconn | "Trusted computing" is an euphemisms for this kind of stuff imo |
| 09:07.08 | amiconn | Should be called "crippled" or "locked down" |
| 09:07.45 | belsatsar | yes |
| 09:07.49 | belsatsar | did you see the youtube amiconn |
| 09:07.58 | mece | Trustless Computing |
| 09:08.11 | amiconn | no |
| 09:08.27 | belsatsar | you should it is excellent |
| 09:08.55 | belsatsar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnXU7z2_6Jg |
| 09:09.02 | belsatsar | ++++++++++ |
| 09:09.17 | DocScrutinizer | the "trust is mutual"? |
| 09:11.07 | Sicelo | has just been able to connect his cdma modem through h-e-n. time for ppp scripts |
| 09:11.43 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, that one. Posted that a lot, it's exactly to the point though not very deep |
| 09:12.27 | DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: :-D Alas we probably won't be able to bring h-e-n to N9, thanks Aegis |
| 09:12.35 | Sicelo | i ended up making my own Y-cable. |
| 09:12.49 | Sicelo | yeah, bad |
| 09:13.15 | belsatsar | DocScrutinizer: it is one of the best propaganda videos ever in the modern age |
| 09:13.20 | belsatsar | (helps that it is true) |
| 09:13.24 | Sicelo | one of the reasons why i bought my N900 2 weeks after N9 release |
| 09:13.34 | mece | belsatsar, great video! |
| 09:13.56 | nid0 | the video makes a key point at 1:30 though, TC itself isnt a dirty word, just totalitarian implementations of it |
| 09:13.58 | ErwinJunge | http://maxborgesagency.com/press/aoc-unveils-16-inch-portable-usb-monitor-the-must-have-laptop-accessory/ --> How likely is it that this would work with h-e-n and a y-cable? |
| 09:13.59 | belsatsar | and it's so german too... belief/believe |
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| 09:14.59 | belsatsar | ErwinJunge: just processing the video would take a large chunk of a handheld's cpu |
| 09:15.33 | belsatsar | mini-hdmi is the answer for external displays |
| 09:18.07 | ErwinJunge | belsatsar: Hm... but could it work? I've had this idea of running an entire desktop of the phone for a while, this is the missing piece :) kb/mouse is easy. I'm not talking about complicated stuff, just a plain 2d desktop, browser and a programming editor. |
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| 09:20.01 | belsatsar | ErwinJunge: way too heavy |
| 09:20.24 | belsatsar | well, maybe borderline |
| 09:20.34 | belsatsar | have you used vnc? |
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| 09:20.58 | ErwinJunge | In the past, yes. Not on the phone though. |
| 09:21.17 | belsatsar | it will give you an idea of the performance you can expect |
| 09:21.23 | belsatsar | vnc over usb |
| 09:22.50 | ErwinJunge | I'd expect vnc to be quite a bit more intensive than just sending images to a monitor. I'd also needs to handle encryption. |
| 09:23.04 | ErwinJunge | At least, I hope vnc does encryption, haven't used it in ages. |
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| 09:26.01 | nid0 | vnc traffic isnt generally encrypted by default |
| 09:26.19 | edheldil | ErwinJunge: you can tunel vnc through ssh |
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| 09:27.00 | ErwinJunge | edheldil: That seems a bit pointless. If you're already tunneling stuff through ssh, why do you need vnc? Just tunnel the app itself. |
| 09:27.13 | belsatsar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd4s3GtONqY This is very good! |
| 09:27.36 | belsatsar | by the same author as the anti tpm video mece |
| 09:27.53 | nid0 | ErwinJunge: how are you going to get a windows desktop over ssh? |
| 09:27.59 | nid0 | for example. |
| 09:28.47 | belsatsar | nid0: we know |
| 09:29.05 | ErwinJunge | nid0: Never have that issue, luckily ;) Anyways, to wrap up this discussion: I'll probably end up getting on of these screens for my laptop anyways, so I'll try it with the phone then :) |
| 09:29.15 | edheldil | ErwinJunge: also we use it for consoles of virtual hosts |
| 09:29.27 | belsatsar | ErwinJunge: i run an archos 70 tablet as my side monitor |
| 09:29.38 | belsatsar | i use 'synergy' to controll it with my laptop keyboard/mouse |
| 09:29.52 | mece | belsatsar, thanks |
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| 09:30.25 | ErwinJunge | belsatsar: Yeah, synergy is awesome. I've regularly used a second laptop as second screen. The usb screen seems like a more elegant solution though. |
| 09:32.10 | belsatsar | if i sucked less i'd have meego running on the archos by now |
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| 10:03.17 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, also I don't see bigbusiness having a problem with this... infact I would think it's a benefit for them... no way for anyone to boot anything other than a company approved thing(which is sadly in most cases the whatever version of windows)... and I'm sure m$ will let them lock ... |
| 10:03.22 | ruskie | ... the group policy down as well... frankly I see it as their wet dream |
| 10:04.33 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, but yeah I agree that all TP is bad be it from nokia or m$ or intel or anyone else that wants to push it |
| 10:09.09 | nid0 | except for when its not |
| 10:09.26 | ruskie | nid0, no case for when it's not |
| 10:09.39 | ruskie | there is no non-broken way to implement it |
| 10:10.03 | nid0 | sure there are, you not knowing what useful implementations TC has doesnt mean they dont exist |
| 10:10.20 | ruskie | so enlighten me |
| 10:10.44 | nid0 | self-encrypting drives and many full-disk encryption methods for example rely on and work properly thanks to TC |
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| 10:12.47 | ruskie | nid0, frankly I don't trust those technologies to encrypt non-critical information |
| 10:13.08 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: you're plain wrong on that. Big Business isn't interested in becoming slave of M$ |
| 10:14.04 | nid0 | i'd like to see what possible argument can be given to suggest that the ability to securely encrypt an entire drive in hardware with no performance loss can possibly be a bad thing, when its use is entirely down to the system's admin. |
| 10:15.21 | ruskie | nid0, who has the keys to decrypt it... you? the manufacturer? third party? |
| 10:15.40 | nid0 | theyre stored within the tpm, which is the entire point |
| 10:15.47 | nid0 | drive taken out of computer, drive no worky any more |
| 10:15.48 | ruskie | DocScrutinizer, then why do they keep buying windows systems? |
| 10:16.03 | ruskie | nid0, ahh you just made another good bad point |
| 10:16.33 | nid0 | and most implementations allow you to retain your own recovery key separate to the main key stored in the tpm if you wish |
| 10:16.44 | nid0 | big evil bitlocker from big evil MS being a good example |
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| 10:18.43 | ruskie | as for "big evil" I've long given up on that |
| 10:23.22 | DocScrutinizer | nid0: use of TC *never* is "entirely to the sysadmin" - the whole point of TC is about you don't have access to the root cert. Otherwise it wouldn't be the concept of TC and could be achieved by other means since decades |
| 10:24.38 | DocScrutinizer | TC *means* there is a well "hidden" public key called root cert in your machine, and you don't posess the private key to sign kernels, bootloaders, apps, whatnot |
| 10:24.43 | nid0 | i'd be interested to hear more detail on that. You the sysadmin can choose to encrypt the drive using TPM, encrypt it using a different method not using TPM, or not encrypt it. what of that is not down to the sysadmin? |
| 10:25.49 | DocScrutinizer | the root cert is not down to the sysadmin. You can NOT move the cryped drive to any other machine and reinstall it there and recover your data |
| 10:26.17 | SpeedEvil | Depends on the implementation |
| 10:26.23 | DocScrutinizer | as you don't own the key |
| 10:26.29 | nid0 | no, you cant do that with self-encrypting drives, because the whole entire point of self-encrypting drives is that they only work and only can work in the computer and connected to the tpm module through which you encrypted them. |
| 10:26.33 | nid0 | that's the entire point of using it |
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| 10:26.53 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: BS. If it were not like that, it was a simple cryptfs like we know since decades |
| 10:26.57 | nid0 | whereas in the case of bitlocker for example, you can generate and own a recovery key even while using tpm encryption so that you CAN decrypt the drive elsewhere |
| 10:27.10 | nid0 | just like most software-based tpm encryption methods |
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| 10:28.04 | DocScrutinizer | nid0: if you decide to use such a scheme then prepare for getting fired whenever your machine breaks and you can't recover the perfectly sane but crypted data from drive |
| 10:28.09 | nid0 | and yes, you can use cryptfs or other entirely software-based alternatives, if you dont want to use tpm and take a performance hit for doing so |
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| 10:29.19 | nid0 | DocScrutinizer many businesses do, its the whole reason SED drives are sold. |
| 10:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | nid0: you're so completely and entirely wrong, speed of encryption has absolutely NOTHING to do with TPM |
| 10:29.37 | nid0 | and these same businesses are also sane enough to have redundant data copies. |
| 10:30.13 | DocScrutinizer | TPM actually is a pretty slow coprocessor that can not handle any sane encryption datarate |
| 10:31.40 | nid0 | DocScrutinizer indirectly it does and i'm entirely right thanks. using TPM self-encrypting drives carry out the encryption process onboard the disk's own processor and typically suffer from effectively zero performance loss |
| 10:32.44 | DocScrutinizer | so what? how's the SATA interface supposed to access the TPM that usually sits somewhere completely different on your system? |
| 10:33.26 | DocScrutinizer | hardware encryption on-drive is completely unrelated to TPM |
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| 10:33.53 | DocScrutinizer | there's a piece of SOFTWARE to moderate between drive and TPM |
| 10:33.57 | nid0 | how is it possibly unrelated |
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| 10:35.25 | DocScrutinizer | same software can work perfectly sane for encryption without any TPM existing on your machine at all, it's just the question of storing the key elsewhere then |
| 10:36.05 | DocScrutinizer | the drive and its cryp processor won't care nor even notice the difference |
| 10:36.43 | nid0 | and we're back to square one of the fundamental first benefit of self-encrypting drives as I said up there. |
| 10:36.47 | DocScrutinizer | honestly a *very* poor example of a valid usecase for TPM/TC |
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| 10:37.42 | nid0 | no, its a very poor example in your eyes because your counter-argument is "well you *could* do it a different way", it doesnt change the fact that it's a useful use-case of tpm without the disadvantage of your alternative |
| 10:38.23 | DocScrutinizer | there are USB dongles and even SIM cards similar to TPM, and they vcan do exactly all the things you can do with an on-board TPM, just you can unplug them and you own the root cert |
| 10:38.59 | DocScrutinizer | nid0: my alternative has which disadvantage exactly now? |
| 10:39.09 | nid0 | and when you want to ensure that drive X can only possibly work in server X, rather than servers Y and Z? |
| 10:39.37 | DocScrutinizer | then your concerns are rather weird |
| 10:40.07 | nid0 | if the key is stored elsewhere, its retrievable or reusable. the day tpm modules can be broken to recover the keys then sure, the use of SED becomes nonexistant, but to my knowledge that hasnt happened. |
| 10:40.11 | DocScrutinizer | as anybody opening up the server and just stealing the drive is a very strange thief for sure |
| 10:40.51 | nid0 | DocScrutinizer: preventing that potential data loss is basically the whole point of self-encrypting drives |
| 10:41.08 | DocScrutinizer | eh?? |
| 10:42.14 | DocScrutinizer | data loss == your server TPM (or mainboard) breaks: data loss as drive can't get decrypted any more. As not even in your steel locker you got a copy of the key |
| 10:42.39 | nid0 | no, but luckily you're also not an idiot and have redundant copies of the data. |
| 10:42.44 | DocScrutinizer | data leakage == somebody steals server, or SAN, or just the drive |
| 10:42.46 | nid0 | also encrypted. |
| 10:43.16 | DocScrutinizer | just the drive won't work with TPM |
| 10:44.02 | DocScrutinizer | but honestly who's going to unmount the physical drive to steal it, instead of stealing the whole server or SAN |
| 10:45.35 | nid0 | not many people, but the potential is still there so it's a base that needs to be covered if at all possible, and TPM self-encrypted drives make it very straightforward to cover. whipping a few drives out of a system is also rather easier than carting off a rack-sized SAN |
| 10:45.42 | DocScrutinizer | and still there are PCI cards with a crypto module like a TPM that are also mounted inside the server and can't get simply unplugged without opening the case. But those cards have no vendor root cert, unlike TPM |
| 10:46.42 | DocScrutinizer | honestly your usecase is bizarre, to be polite |
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| 10:48.07 | nid0 | well, its the reason self-encrypting drives exist, and I can assure you it's a use-case many businesses take into account, whether you can see the benefit or not |
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| 10:49.08 | nid0 | the end result, however, still remains that whether you see the benefit of locking drive<>server the functionality exists through TPM, and TPM makes it very straightforward to both implement and manage, and the inherant use of TPM for the process adds no downside |
| 10:50.29 | DocScrutinizer | sure, there are a zillion weird "solutions" out there for a zillion of made up "problems". I'll sell a /dev/null-cleaner that shredders all the data that heaps up in /dev/null. I bet there are many businesses out there that take it into account |
| 10:51.49 | DocScrutinizer | and I already have shown you 2 alternative solutions to "lock drive to server" that don't need TPM and have *no* downsides you told me about yet |
| 10:52.51 | DocScrutinizer | 1) use a mere sw-based TPM emulation, as drive can't talk to TPM anyway. 2) use a "TPM" on a PCI card that you own and control completely |
| 10:53.04 | nid0 | so contact the disk manufactures and tell them to redesign the way their SED process works. until that happens, presenting nonexistant "do it another way" solutions are meaningless. |
| 10:53.18 | DocScrutinizer | BS |
| 10:53.25 | nid0 | youll also need to contact SAN manufactures about including those PCI cards. |
| 10:54.11 | DocScrutinizer | meh, I give a shit about SAN as I won't run a linux on that SAN where I'd be concerned about any TPM built in |
| 10:55.26 | DocScrutinizer | so you're free to use TPM on any platform you like, for whatever reason you think is appropriate, but please don't say mainboards need a TPM soldered to them and equipped with a manufacturer root cert as that'S the only way to have proper crypted drives |
| 10:55.59 | DocScrutinizer | it evidently isn't |
| 10:57.08 | nid0 | I never said anything of the sort, its you and ruskie that decided that there's absolutely no possible concievable beneficial use to TPM, and I presented a really straightforward one, used very commonly. you running in circles around "cant see the use-case" doesnt change that fact one bit |
| 10:58.49 | RST38h | Gentlemen, gentlemen, let us just all shake hands and say "hardware copy protection sucks" |
| 10:59.43 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, you're right. You showed that there's a valid usecase of locking a drive to a TPM, and that is: lock the drive to the TPM. As for any other more general description of the usecase I offered alternatives |
| 10:59.47 | RST38h | hands out lollipops shaped as MPAA CEO's penis |
| 11:00.45 | DocScrutinizer | obviously you can not lock a drive to a TPM that's not there |
| 11:01.23 | DocScrutinizer | so you're right, and I still think that's no reason anybody would need to get a TPM |
| 11:01.43 | RST38h | most drives come with their own copy protection features nowadays |
| 11:02.06 | DocScrutinizer | RST38h: that's what we talked about |
| 11:02.09 | RST38h | these are just not being used for the lack of real world applications |
| 11:02.16 | nid0 | RST38h: yeah thats SED, which uses TPM |
| 11:02.20 | DocScrutinizer | nid0 claimed it was relying on a TPM |
| 11:03.30 | DocScrutinizer | nid0 also said your (and my) denial of real usecases was just due to our blindness of seeing them |
| 11:04.32 | DocScrutinizer | as thieves usually dismantle servers to unscrew the drives to steal just the drive, rather than just grabbing the whole server and run |
| 11:05.22 | DocScrutinizer | and that same thieves were even not able to grab the whole server rather than just the drive, so the drive dongling to server mainboard was a valid theft protection measure |
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| 11:08.37 | DocScrutinizer | while dongling the same drive to a key fetched from a remote server wouldn't solve the problem, unlike local soldered-to-board TPM which allegedly does |
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| 11:11.39 | DocScrutinizer | especially sane a setup for raid arrays, where the increased reliability by array is more than compensated by the single point of failure TPM which even doesn't have any recovery path whatsoever |
| 11:13.51 | DocScrutinizer | (recovery path of course depending on implementation, you of course can use TPM to store your own key that you got a copy of in your steel locker) |
| 11:14.46 | edheldil | any real benefits are just a vehicle to shovel TPM and DRM down your throat |
| 11:15.02 | DocScrutinizer | but then the additional "benefit" of TPM is still debatable as you could store the key elsewhere, and probably that "elsewhere" was a better choice |
| 11:15.29 | DocScrutinizer | s/real/made to believe/ and I'm with you |
| 11:17.00 | DocScrutinizer | TPM/TC is not about user security, it's not designed for that. It's about security from user, by concept |
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| 11:18.24 | DocScrutinizer | as "security from user" (aka DRM etc) is the only real benefit of TPM - everything else can get accomplished without TPM already, and has been |
| 11:19.42 | crashanddie | actually, as soon as you start thinking about encryption TPM is awesome _for_ user security |
| 11:19.54 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 11:19.54 | crashanddie | but yes, the way it's used in 99% of cases by corporations, it's protection from user. |
| 11:20.28 | DocScrutinizer | all that TPM does is verify a challenge-response chat for a manufacturer or user key |
| 11:20.52 | crashanddie | yes, and? |
| 11:21.51 | DocScrutinizer | you don't need challenge-response obfuscation of the key, on a system that is vulnerable to malware |
| 11:22.34 | DocScrutinizer | without a full TC implementation the malware doesn't need the key, it just gets access to the secured data by system means |
| 11:22.46 | crashanddie | eh? |
| 11:23.38 | DocScrutinizer | what would challenge-response help when anybody is stealing the server with encrypted drive? Nuttin, as the drive gets unlocked anyway |
| 11:23.52 | crashanddie | Woah? |
| 11:24.07 | crashanddie | Dude, with FDE, you can take away the disk and try to mount it somewhere else, encrypted is encrypted. |
| 11:24.17 | crashanddie | It won't magically disappear because the TPM isn't there anymore |
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| 11:24.58 | thresh | hi guys |
| 11:25.19 | DocScrutinizer | and if you got some malware on the server that would possibly steal the key so you could run away with the key and drive (without the server) then it's similarly nonsensical as that key-stealing ,alware as well could access the data on crypted drive rather than stealing the key |
| 11:25.24 | thresh | so I've installed kernel-power48 via fapman and now my phone doesnt boot with it nor with -47 |
| 11:25.51 | crashanddie | The TPM provides you with a challenge, and the user provides the response (either through synch OTP, asynch OTP, or even UP auth), if correct, the TPM provides that access to the HD which unlocks a session key, and grants access to the HD |
| 11:26.09 | crashanddie | No key is ever leaving the TPM/HD. |
| 11:26.24 | crashanddie | It doesn't even go to RAM or CPU registers |
| 11:26.32 | DocScrutinizer | I know |
| 11:26.39 | DocScrutinizer | I lost you |
| 11:27.51 | DocScrutinizer | store the key in plain text on the server (e.g. in cmos-clock) and there's no difference regarding security, as either way a malware needs to run on the server to steal the key, and that same malware can steal the data as well |
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| 11:28.54 | DocScrutinizer | unless yur server has a full fledged TC implementation which would deny access of the malware to either of both ;-) |
| 11:29.38 | DocScrutinizer | so where's the big benefit of TPM? |
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| 11:31.27 | belsatsar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs5_jB46xQE "We do the Pokey Pokey cause we're somehow all alowed... That's what it's all about." [TSA spoof] |
| 11:31.39 | DocScrutinizer | actually storing the key to unlock the drive on a remote filesystem will *really* provide some theft protection for encrypted data on a drive |
| 11:33.05 | belsatsar | and then they sieze your isp records |
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| 12:08.54 | mintux | I updated my phone to pr1.3 but I could not install previous applications :-( I need php also call recorder . I add all catalogs |
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| 12:11.45 | mintux | http://www.img4up.com/up2/96126258218436113877.png http://www.img4up.com/up2/40442557715121465604.png http://www.img4up.com/up2/86382008153910886351.png |
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| 12:13.38 | mintux | http://codepad.org/MGhp4FPR |
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| 12:15.17 | mintux | http://codepad.org/dUjVSUgs |
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| 12:18.35 | mintux | no solutions ? or same problem ? |
| 12:20.16 | belsatsar | the best contact person is the package maintainer mintux |
| 12:20.38 | belsatsar | with open source you can contact the person directly |
| 12:20.45 | mintux | hmm |
| 12:21.02 | belsatsar | not as with commercial software where we are conditioned to not call or interrupt them |
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| 12:41.51 | RST38h | Attention metal thieves: Buy BT, get 75 MILLION miles of copper |
| 12:41.55 | RST38h | Hehe |
| 12:46.42 | ruskie | lol |
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| 12:54.23 | jhb | Hi *, I am reading around on how to get rid of the camera stutter when recording videos. No obvious solution so far - did I miss something? |
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| 13:18.42 | jhb | ok, note to self: changing the governor to userspace makes a difference |
| 13:22.26 | SpeedEvil | Governer to userspace I think menas that it's off |
| 13:22.32 | SpeedEvil | and at full speed all the time |
| 13:22.59 | SpeedEvil | This will have an impact on battery life, but if you only turned it on while the camera was active... |
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| 13:27.09 | jhb | SpeedEvil: good point. thx |
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| 13:34.50 | flux | has someone written a program that warns me, if a process hogs significant amount of cpu during a certain time period? |
| 13:35.47 | flux | in fact, there is one built in, the sound that comes when the battery is nearing zero charge, but I'd like to get a heads-up ;) |
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| 14:19.43 | DocScrutinizer | jhb: first instance I never ever experienced camera stutter on video recording |
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| 14:21.08 | DocScrutinizer | so I suspect it's one of your "optimizations" I assume you did - judging by yur suggested "solution" of changing governor - that actually causes the problem to begin with |
| 14:21.33 | jhb | DocScrutinizer: I think (not sure, of course) that I had it from the beginning |
| 14:21.48 | jhb | DocScrutinizer: but of course, I run quite a fiddled with setup |
| 14:22.15 | jhb | DocScrutinizer: maybe one day I do a backup, flash, test, and roll back |
| 14:23.19 | DocScrutinizer | I'd honestly suggest to do a decent full backup (suggesting backupmenu for that), then reflash to stock, NOT restore any customizations or apps, and test camera with that system under same conditions that usually reveal stutter |
| 14:23.27 | DocScrutinizer | hehe |
| 14:23.36 | jhb | :-) |
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| 14:24.11 | jhb | I haven't tried cssu yet, so maybe I can add another test while I am at it :-) |
| 14:25.01 | DocScrutinizer | maybe, but CSSU actually has an alternative camera GUI that may make for further complications |
| 14:25.28 | DocScrutinizer | I've actually not tested that one yet |
| 14:25.53 | jhb | can one use the the old camera-ui in cssu? |
| 14:25.55 | DocScrutinizer | it's supposed to use same backend but you never know |
| 14:26.28 | DocScrutinizer | yes, you can use old camera-ui (I've been told) - just a matter if forced install of the stock app |
| 14:27.33 | DocScrutinizer | apt-get install camera-ui=<version> or sth like that |
| 14:27.43 | DocScrutinizer | ask MohammadAG |
| 14:27.56 | kerio | does fcam record videos? |
| 14:28.06 | DocScrutinizer | not afaik |
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| 14:28.43 | DocScrutinizer | but then I never used fcam for any extended period of time |
| 14:29.36 | jhb | i haven't used fcam either. Mmm, need to find some time to play around with the cssu |
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| 16:12.36 | markinfo | has something changed in facebook login in Maemo? I have nokia n900 and from a few days it is not able to connect to this account. |
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| 17:06.02 | DocScrutinizer | farewell, lcuk :-( |
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| 17:25.24 | smhar | sometimes, the virtual keyboard stops working, how can I restart it without rebooting? |
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| 18:24.29 | DocScrutinizer | err, sometimes sliding out and back in hwkbd helped here |
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| 18:28.37 | DocScrutinizer | other than that, I'm not sure. Maybe modprobe -r uinput; modprobe uinput ? Could be completely unrelated as well |
| 18:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | anyway ->description: User level driver support for input subsystem |
| 18:29.34 | DocScrutinizer | (modinfo uinput) |
| 18:31.12 | ShadowJK | yes unrelated |
| 18:31.44 | ShadowJK | vkbd wouldn't go through kernel other than that touchscreen goes via kernel |
| 18:31.57 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
| 18:32.27 | DocScrutinizer | so maybe killall hildon-desktop? |
| 18:32.34 | DocScrutinizer | prolly also useless |
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| 18:35.20 | fizzie | Sliding in and out (that sounds so dirty) the hwkbd has helped for both (the rare-ish) "hwkbd stopped working" and "vkbd stopped working" issues here. |
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| 18:44.26 | smhar | sliding hwkbd did not help me, rebooting -actually several times- help :-/ |
| 18:45.14 | DocScrutinizer | err then there's something messed up a bit more than just slightly |
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| 18:46.38 | DocScrutinizer | ohwell, that are the results of kernel coders not caring about reentrant code, proper mutex usage, and races |
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| 18:47.28 | ShadowJK | vkbd doesnt use kernel |
| 18:47.39 | DocScrutinizer | right, again |
| 18:47.44 | DocScrutinizer | nevertheless |
| 18:47.51 | ShadowJK | other than that vkbd obviously reacts to touchscreen, and if touchscreen works then the kernel components work |
| 18:48.36 | ShadowJK | I'd however check if the slider position is detected correctly |
| 18:48.46 | ShadowJK | gets updated in output of 'dmesg' |
| 18:48.50 | DocScrutinizer | you can have races and reentrance issues in x components as well, and I dunno how vkbd is plumbed to the system at all |
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| 18:49.30 | ShadowJK | hildon-input-method? :P |
| 18:49.39 | DocScrutinizer | :nod: |
| 18:50.01 | DocScrutinizer | not exactly kernel maybe, but rather low in the whole stack nevertheless |
| 18:50.19 | DocScrutinizer | after all hwkbd and vkbd need to interact |
| 18:50.38 | DocScrutinizer | one way or another |
| 18:51.11 | ShadowJK | roughly it sits between X and apps that support input methods, filtering stuff |
| 18:51.23 | DocScrutinizer | o.O |
| 18:51.44 | DocScrutinizer | hates the whole input stuff - too many layers |
| 18:51.52 | ShadowJK | If you ran, say, plain x-terminal, then you'd notice that Symbols menu didn't work, and that you have to keep blue arrow pressed |
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| 18:53.30 | DocScrutinizer | waves and heads off for dinner, nah wait a last glance at that thread... |
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| 18:56.21 | Venemo | hey guys :) |
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| 18:56.35 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, HIM is like voodoo. |
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| 19:03.31 | DocScrutinizer | yoh |
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| 19:04.18 | DocScrutinizer | anyway, clicked my thanks buttons on http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575, now off for dinner |
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| 19:13.34 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, I clicked too... |
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| 19:18.58 | ShadowJK | oh hey |
| 19:19.14 | ShadowJK | half a page down in the forum topic list I find that I wouldn't be able to read email on N9 :P |
| 19:19.19 | ShadowJK | because of aegis! |
| 19:20.20 | Venemo | ShadowJK, wtf? |
| 19:20.30 | ShadowJK | modprobe tun |
| 19:20.32 | ShadowJK | doesn't work |
| 19:20.34 | ShadowJK | :P |
| 19:20.45 | ShadowJK | so I can't access vpn |
| 19:20.56 | ShadowJK | so I can't get to the mailserver |
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| 19:21.59 | GAN900 | wooowooo |
| 19:22.08 | ShadowJK | N810 was the first portable device I had that could read my email :) |
| 19:22.21 | ShadowJK | I guess N900 might be the last :( |
| 19:22.34 | ShadowJK | although android devices aren't as locked down usually i guess? |
| 19:22.40 | GAN900 | Well, it's all a little academic anyway. |
| 19:22.47 | Venemo | omg |
| 19:22.56 | ShadowJK | :P |
| 19:23.38 | ShadowJK | I haven't really been following it, but from the press media in .fi it looks like it'll be impossible to buy an N9 anyways |
| 19:23.39 | petteri | i don't get the aegis problem. Isn't there a switch in the control panel to turn aegis off? |
| 19:25.06 | ShadowJK | Apparently not? |
| 19:25.09 | ShadowJK | Not one that works anyway? |
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| 19:26.12 | ShadowJK | wonders if the GPS bug from Maemo5 that I fixed has been also fixed in Harmattan, or if I have to crack aegis and then fix it before my bluetooth gps works :P |
| 19:27.57 | merlin1991 | ShadowJK: wich bug? |
| 19:29.24 | kerio | wtf is aegis |
| 19:29.39 | ShadowJK | bug 11354 |
| 19:29.40 | povbot | 04Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11354 gypsy-daemon can not parse GPRMC message from external GPS receiver |
| 19:29.50 | kerio | ~aegis |
| 19:29.51 | infobot | i guess aegis is http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 19:32.49 | ShadowJK | kerio, aegis makes your phone into a featurephone+apps :P |
| 19:34.06 | kerio | cool story, nokia |
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| 19:45.07 | jacekowski | you know what |
| 19:45.13 | jacekowski | that N8 is quite decent phone |
| 19:45.21 | jacekowski | and battery lasts for more than a day |
| 19:45.54 | jacekowski | it has a lot of stuff that n900 lacks |
| 19:46.03 | jacekowski | but lot of stuff isn't there as well |
| 19:48.12 | ShadowJK | well it kinda does nothing |
| 19:48.15 | ShadowJK | except calls and texts? |
| 19:49.11 | jacekowski | nokia maps |
| 19:49.13 | jacekowski | gps |
| 19:49.18 | jacekowski | fm transmitter |
| 19:49.29 | jacekowski | and everything seems to be faster |
| 19:49.33 | jacekowski | compass |
| 19:49.43 | jacekowski | xenon flash |
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| 19:52.51 | ShadowJK | I wish someone would come up with a media player |
| 19:54.08 | ShadowJK | like, one that does away with the traditional of only having 1 of these features present: ability to find your god damn songs, format support, format acceleration |
| 19:54.17 | ShadowJK | maemo5 media player has the third :P |
| 19:55.10 | ShadowJK | the "internet radio" thing is so unreliable I just copy URLs to x-terminal and play them with MPlayer.. |
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| 19:56.23 | ShadowJK | Come to think of it, most of the things I use x-term and "classic" linux apps for is things that while present just don't work :/ |
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| 20:35.02 | jacekowski | ShadowJK: thing is, n8 is a good hardware |
| 20:35.17 | jacekowski | ShadowJK: OS is limited |
| 20:35.30 | ShadowJK | ya |
| 20:35.34 | jacekowski | but on n900 os was not limited |
| 20:35.47 | jacekowski | and there wasn't so many good apps as well |
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| 20:42.28 | jacekowski | and n8 only shows how bad linux/maemo power management was |
| 20:48.23 | ShadowJK | well |
| 20:48.41 | ShadowJK | All the symbian phones I had only had more battery life because they were incapable of doing the things I do on maemo :P |
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| 20:49.03 | ShadowJK | My Nokia E75 has about same battery life as my N900 when doing the same things |
| 20:49.45 | ShadowJK | But I have to really force myself with the E75. The browser makes me want to think "FUCK IT" and give up, which obviously saves battery life :) |
| 20:50.29 | ShadowJK | My spare N900 gets about same battery life as my E75 when they both sit on table doing nothing |
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| 20:57.33 | ShadowJK | of course, N8 has cpu from N810 or something :-) |
| 20:57.37 | ShadowJK | overclocked a bit |
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| 21:34.19 | markinfo | has someone account on Facebook? I used it on nokia n900 but some days ago there is always "network error" - was something changed? |
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| 21:35.08 | markinfo | account is at: name@chat.facebook.com |
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| 21:35.42 | markinfo | and password - nothing else can be setuped |
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| 21:37.08 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: would you "unlock my HARM"? |
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| 22:47.02 | Sazpaimon | anyone want to send/sell me a slide assy for my N900 |
| 22:47.26 | Sazpaimon | the wire where the LCD plugs into is torn |
| 22:47.32 | Sazpaimon | so now the whole part is pretty much useless |
| 22:48.51 | Sc0rpius | you can buy that part |
| 22:49.24 | Sazpaimon | Sc0rpius, but replacing it on a flex assy? |
| 22:49.37 | Sazpaimon | im pretty sure its glued onto that part in a clean environment |
| 22:49.44 | Sc0rpius | http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMERA-FLEX-RIBBON-CABLE-REPAIR-Fits-NOKIA-N900-PARTS-/300594778874?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item45fcd852fa |
| 22:49.47 | Sc0rpius | you mean that cable? |
| 22:49.49 | Sazpaimon | so removing the already existing one and replacing it wouldnt be simple |
| 22:50.00 | Sc0rpius | that's the whole flex cable that goes to LCD, keyboard and camera |
| 22:50.03 | Sazpaimon | that's the one |
| 22:50.11 | Sc0rpius | it's VERY simple to replace |
| 22:50.15 | Sc0rpius | it's three sockets |
| 22:50.16 | Sazpaimon | even the service manual says to discard it when you remove it though |
| 22:50.31 | Sc0rpius | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nokia-N900-Flex-Cable-Keyboard-Camera-Repair-Part-/290494971699?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a2d97f33 |
| 22:50.33 | Sc0rpius | that one has the tools! |
| 22:50.47 | Sc0rpius | anyway, browse eBay for a little, you'll find a good deal for the cable |
| 22:50.57 | Sazpaimon | how does one replace it |
| 22:50.58 | Sc0rpius | and there are YouTube videos to disassemble the N900 |
| 22:51.07 | Sazpaimon | mine is already dissasembled |
| 22:51.15 | Sc0rpius | browse YouTube there are several videos for replacing that cable |
| 22:51.36 | Sazpaimon | do they all come with the front camera attached |
| 22:52.19 | Sc0rpius | I wonder if you need that one or the one that comes with the LCD screen |
| 22:52.28 | Sc0rpius | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nokia-N900-Replacement-LCD-Touch-Screen-Repair-Part-/380289777730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588b098042 |
| 22:52.29 | Sc0rpius | that one |
| 22:52.44 | Sazpaimon | that only comes with the microphone |
| 22:52.56 | Sazpaimon | it just has holes for the camera |
| 22:53.25 | Sc0rpius | the thing is, the part exists |
| 22:53.32 | Sc0rpius | I had to replace my keyboard :/ |
| 22:53.53 | Sc0rpius | this one doesn't look as gorgeous as the original Nokia one but at least it works |
| 22:54.07 | Sazpaimon | I cant find anything on youtube for N900 and flex cable |
| 22:54.57 | Sazpaimon | http://www.parts4repair.com/products/Nokia-N900-Flat-Flex-Cable-Ribbon-With-Front-Camera.html this one looks like the original nokia part |
| 22:57.49 | Sazpaimon | looks like it just uses tape |
| 22:57.53 | Sazpaimon | not glue |
| 22:58.11 | Sazpaimon | so the extra tools arnet needed |
| 22:58.18 | Sazpaimon | since my N900 is already dismantled |
| 22:58.31 | Sazpaimon | i had to replace the digitizer and LCD |
| 22:58.49 | Sazpaimon | and the numerous unplugging and plugging back in strained the flex cable plug for it too much |
| 23:00.24 | Sazpaimon | alright then, done |
| 23:00.40 | Sazpaimon | there's USA seller so i wont have to wait 3 weeks for shipping |
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| 23:48.12 | DocScrutinizer | Sazpaimon: (the numerous unplugging and plugging back in strained the flex cable plug) did I really miss it to tell you to take care about the plug on FPC? |
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| 23:50.50 | DocScrutinizer | it's a known weak part, has a hard plug soldered to a flex cable, and backed up with another more rigid PCB tha even has traces and solder joints to the flex cable. A little bit of bending and those solder joints break |
| 23:54.26 | Sazpaimon | DocScrutinizer, too late now |
| 23:54.33 | Sazpaimon | $30 later |
| 23:54.41 | Sazpaimon | and another week of waiting |
