| 00:02.22 | *** join/#maemo doc|home (~doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 00:06.25 | GeneralAntilles | We need a new word to replace "steal" in reference to ones and zeros. |
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| 00:15.25 | MohammadAG | is there a way to go above 100% on line-out from the N900? |
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| 01:11.22 | cehteh | Nokia-N900:/usr/src/LuaJIT-2.0.0-beta8# make |
| 01:11.22 | cehteh | /bin/sh: make: not found |
| 01:11.35 | cehteh | .. meh .. setting up a chroot with sdk :P |
| 01:12.41 | psychologe | has some terminal command can record sound ? |
| 01:15.04 | villager | arecord might work... |
| 01:17.27 | psychologe | villager ,thanks i will try it,thanks |
| 01:17.31 | cehteh | some gstreamer magic possibly too |
| 01:18.01 | villager | yeah, gst-launch would allow you to compress the audio too, arecord wouldn't |
| 01:18.11 | cehteh | ok compiling on the device works .. but uhm slow and well .. prolly i shall add liquid cooling :P |
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| 01:21.49 | villager | yeah, there have been times I've used my N900 for warmth on cold mornings... running some games and using 3G tends to get its temperature up... |
| 01:26.36 | psychologe | i find a lot of fearture can use terminal command soultion, i need't install some program. |
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| 01:30.31 | cehteh | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:30.36 | cehteh | mhm .. whatever |
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| 01:31.29 | *** join/#maemo ebzzry (~aoeu@203.213.202.186) |
| 01:31.46 | ebzzry | Is the user "user" safe to rename? |
| 01:32.07 | cehteh | no |
| 01:32.24 | cehteh | well i dont know .. but i expect it will break |
| 01:32.32 | cehteh | almost for sure |
| 01:32.39 | ebzzry | cehteh: why expect? |
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| 01:32.51 | ebzzry | Are references to the user user hardcoded? |
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| 01:33.01 | cehteh | my experiences with nokia hardcoding everything :P |
| 01:33.12 | villager | very likely it is hardcoded yes |
| 01:33.34 | ebzzry | We can't make assumptions like that unless we have sources. |
| 01:33.50 | cehteh | try out and report :P |
| 01:33.56 | cehteh | make backup |
| 01:34.06 | cehteh | keep flash images at hand |
| 01:34.09 | ebzzry | That's the reason why I'm asking people who have knowledge of those things |
| 01:34.36 | cehteh | well really i wont try, there are simpler ways to break the device |
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| 01:35.59 | villager | for starters, 30G flash memory is mounted as vfat under /home/user/MyDocs, and most of the builtin apps (like camera) expect it to be there |
| 01:36.28 | cehteh | with some effort ext4 works :) |
| 01:36.35 | cehteh | but changing username .. nope :) |
| 01:39.57 | villager | presumably the boot process also needs a known user to start processes and the GUI for, since I have seen no login screen... and that would probably be "user" |
| 01:40.12 | ebzzry | So at the moment, none really knows about the consequences. |
| 01:40.39 | ebzzry | I'd like to do it myself, but I use my N900 for "production" use. I can't lose 30 minutes of downtime. |
| 01:41.05 | villager | well I plan for my n900 to continue to work, so I am not going to try it, no |
| 01:41.12 | cehteh | wasnt villager clear enough? |
| 01:41.37 | cehteh | you can also do a grep over a backup for the home/user path |
| 01:41.57 | ebzzry | As far as the scrollback log says, no. grep? Hmm. |
| 01:43.19 | MohammadAG | ooh, N9 hit fcc |
| 01:43.24 | MohammadAG | looks at manuals |
| 01:44.16 | cehteh | MohammadAG: do you have interest in packaging luajit for the n900? .. i am trying to build an test it, but i am not used to packaging things |
| 01:44.59 | cehteh | if it works it would be awesome .. 30x faster than python, with a similar dynamic language :P |
| 01:47.06 | villager | I wouldn't really consider it that similar... dynamic, ok, but pretty different otherwise |
| 01:47.09 | derf | ebzzry: My solution was this: add a new line to /etc/passwd with a new username, but the same uid. |
| 01:47.23 | derf | You can then ssh to the device, etc., using the new name. |
| 01:47.28 | derf | But user "user" still works. |
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| 01:48.30 | cehteh | different syntax .. but they are somewhat similar |
| 01:48.53 | cehteh | well imo lua is way more elegant .. but python wins with available bindings and libraries |
| 01:49.48 | cehteh | the good thing for a small device is that lua is much smaller and much much faster |
| 01:50.57 | ebzzry | derf: Hmm. That's what I did earlier, and it seemed to work. |
| 01:51.15 | ebzzry | Is Lua available on Maemo 5? |
| 01:51.29 | derf | ebzzry: Doing more than that will definitely break things. |
| 01:54.04 | MohammadAG | hmm, the N9's battery seems no removable |
| 01:54.07 | MohammadAG | non* |
| 01:54.17 | MohammadAG | cehteh, sure, not at 5AM though :p |
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| 01:55.26 | cehteh | MohammadAG: yeah just asking if you would do it, likely matter of days or weeks .. |
| 01:55.37 | cehteh | and no n9 has no removeable battery |
| 01:56.08 | MohammadAG | cehteh, the N950's battery is removable |
| 01:56.28 | MohammadAG | in the sense that you unscrew two screws and remove it normally |
| 01:56.39 | MohammadAG | the N9 uses some new battery, similar to that in cordless phones |
| 01:56.45 | cehteh | well in some sense the n9 battery will be removeable too .. |
| 01:57.15 | MohammadAG | you need tweezers or something similar |
| 01:57.43 | MohammadAG | https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=139462&&typ=tjs&fcc_id=%27LJPK |
| 01:57.50 | MohammadAG | Internal photos, page 3 and 4 |
| 01:59.43 | cehteh | i think DocScrutinizer gave up on the n950 .. it's closed down and no fun |
| 02:00.10 | cehteh | no SD card either |
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| 02:05.17 | cehteh | To avoid breaking the charger connector, be careful when connecting or disconnecting |
| 02:05.18 | cehteh | the charger cable. |
| 02:05.25 | cehteh | .. from the manual ... HAHA |
| 02:05.57 | MohammadAG | yeah |
| 02:06.41 | cehteh | looks like the same/similar surface mounted micro usb connector as the n900 has |
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| 02:09.22 | cehteh | the n9 looks sleek .. but has nothing to offer for linux geeks :/ |
| 02:13.59 | beford | it runs linux |
| 02:16.50 | Tronic | cehteh: Ummh, it does have a lot to offer, just not qwerty nor a lot of connectors. |
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| 02:17.24 | cehteh | the OS is locked down, you basically have no access to it |
| 02:17.55 | cehteh | well talk with DocScrutinizer about the issues .. i dont have a n950 |
| 02:18.15 | Tronic | cehteh: Largely open-source system where you can get root access and apt-get the software you need should keep most Linux geeks satisfied. |
| 02:18.42 | Tronic | Ummh, who said the OS is locked down? |
| 02:19.17 | Tronic | Surely root access won't be something you can find in the apps menu but I haven't heard of it being closed. |
| 02:19.26 | Tronic | ... and it certainly is available on the N950. |
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| 02:20.31 | cehteh | for consumer devices all apps have to be signed |
| 02:21.00 | Tronic | Hmm, that sucks. |
| 02:21.07 | cehteh | search for "meego aegis" |
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| 02:21.29 | cehteh | there is no much information yet how this will be used in practice .. |
| 02:21.43 | cehteh | but so far nokia has the keys and no one else |
| 02:21.53 | MohammadAG | easy, aegis is oil for the burning platform |
| 02:22.16 | Tronic | Maybe similar to how they did with Symbian - you can self-sign for your own device or you can have Nokia sign for all devices. |
| 02:22.35 | psychologe | how use gst-launch record microphone sound to local file? |
| 02:22.50 | MohammadAG | no, you can just tell aegis to stfu |
| 02:23.15 | cehteh | MohammadAG: on the developer device .. but obliviously not for consumer devices |
| 02:23.18 | MohammadAG | of course, no one knows the bad stuff that causes |
| 02:23.21 | Tronic | App review makes sense because we wouldn't want the store to be full of malware like the Android Market is. |
| 02:23.30 | MohammadAG | cehteh, even the consumer device |
| 02:23.39 | cehteh | well you have to tell the consumer to do that |
| 02:23.47 | Tronic | Yet, I'd like to see a "I know what I am doing" solution for power users. |
| 02:23.50 | MohammadAG | afaik, it's a reboot away |
| 02:24.05 | MohammadAG | power users don't play angry birds |
| 02:24.17 | MohammadAG | figure out what that means :P |
| 02:24.17 | cehteh | i bet not and there will be alarm bells and red lights when a user tries to disable it |
| 02:24.30 | MohammadAG | it takes a reboot for you to go from a consumer to a power user and back |
| 02:24.42 | Tronic | In any case, the devices will be "jailbroken" if this becomes a problem (i.e. Nokia doesn't give power users that access). |
| 02:24.57 | MohammadAG | power users can do what they want |
| 02:24.59 | cehteh | ah .. so first installing ccache on the device .. thats no fun with this build times :P |
| 02:25.04 | MohammadAG | but they can't use commercial apps |
| 02:25.21 | MohammadAG | in open mode, you can't run games or stuff like that |
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| 02:25.25 | cehteh | community developers will have hard times to push their apps |
| 02:27.17 | villager | perhaps Ovi store will be for that... publish your stuff on Ovi to get it signed |
| 02:28.07 | cehteh | ah that was easy, installing ccache on the n900 .. works out of the box |
| 02:29.39 | villager | MohammadAG: will these power users still be able to use the gsm radio? |
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| 02:49.06 | cehteh | yay MohammadAG ccache is cool when you do C compiling on the device, do you? |
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| 02:58.16 | cehteh | # ./src/luajit |
| 02:58.18 | cehteh | LuaJIT 2.0.0-beta8 -- Copyright (C) 2005-2011 Mike Pall. http://luajit.org/ |
| 02:58.18 | cehteh | JIT: ON ARMv6 ARMv6T2 ARMv7 fold cse dce fwd dse narrow loop abc fuse |
| 02:58.18 | cehteh | > print"Wello Horld?" |
| 02:58.18 | cehteh | Wello Horld? |
| 02:58.22 | cehteh | \o/ |
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| 02:59.41 | jiero | anybody can give hints to hide the cursor in some programs.? |
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| 04:36.01 | jiero | Imagine you want to flip to left workspace/desktop, put one finger on screen - better left side, hold there and quickly put another on its right of the screen, then raise the left one. See, thats how easy to quick switch, no need to against swipe resistance. |
| 04:36.17 | jiero | Seems very few people use this trick |
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| 04:37.53 | cehteh | jiero: needs 2 fingers |
| 04:38.13 | cehteh | i've configured parallax to 2.1 .. no much swipe required |
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| 04:40.51 | jiero | cehteh: or you have split your nail into 2 d.D |
| 04:41.32 | robbiethe1st | Hm, speaking of gestures, does anyone know of a way to make it easier to "right-click" on links in MicroB? |
| 04:41.47 | ShadowJK | opera |
| 04:41.50 | robbiethe1st | I often times have to press like 5 times to get the proper menu to come up |
| 04:42.07 | cehteh | robbiethe1st: yeah seems to be hardcoded or somewhere hidden in gconf :/ |
| 04:42.12 | robbiethe1st | darn |
| 04:42.24 | cehteh | pixel fudge factor and timeout should be configureable |
| 04:42.30 | pauly | anyone want to buy a broken n900? |
| 04:42.35 | cehteh | tell me if you find somethnig |
| 04:42.49 | cehteh | pauly: whats broken and how much? |
| 04:42.54 | cehteh | brb reboot |
| 04:43.24 | robbiethe1st | Well, the weird thing is that for left-clicking, it works great. for right-clicking, though, the link highlights, but most of the time it just shows the "generic" context menu |
| 04:49.36 | cehteh | re |
| 04:50.00 | cehteh | $ uname -a |
| 04:50.02 | cehteh | Linux pluto 3.0.0+ #32 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jul 22 06:06:51 CEST 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux |
| 04:50.44 | cehteh | 3.0 is out btw :P |
| 04:51.56 | cehteh | robbiethe1st: try with the stylus |
| 04:52.21 | cehteh | you have to keep your finger very steady it only registers a right click when you dont move |
| 04:52.42 | cehteh | (and you really have to hit the widget ...) |
| 04:52.53 | robbiethe1st | That's not the problem - it registers it as a non-link right-click |
| 04:53.02 | robbiethe1st | like if you long-pressed anywhere else |
| 04:53.15 | robbiethe1st | without the "open link in new window" option |
| 04:53.49 | cehteh | yes not steady enough .. i see that too |
| 04:53.54 | robbiethe1st | Hm |
| 04:54.08 | cehteh | try with stylus carefully that almost always works |
| 04:54.16 | cehteh | finger isnt steady enough |
| 04:54.39 | robbiethe1st | Yea, that works |
| 04:54.41 | robbiethe1st | it's just |
| 04:54.55 | robbiethe1st | I was hoping to actually improve it's response somehow |
| 04:55.00 | cehteh | would be nice if thats easily configureable, but i dont know where |
| 04:55.37 | cehteh | yes .. i exactly know how it could be improved .. but i dont know where the option is if not hardcoded |
| 04:55.53 | pauly | centeh: screen and usb broke |
| 04:56.20 | lofty306 | ground shaking thunder |
| 04:56.27 | lofty306 | oofs wrooong channel |
| 04:56.45 | robbiethe1st | screen's $40 to replace; USB's about ~$5 if you've got some soldering talent |
| 04:56.46 | cehteh | pauly: eek .. i would liked it as donor for spare parts .. but uhm .. seems the spare parts one would need are broken :P |
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| 04:57.10 | robbiethe1st | I'd buy it if I had more than $5 in my account |
| 04:57.20 | robbiethe1st | Darn people don't want to donate. |
| 04:57.25 | ShadowJK | It highlights the widget on first pressure, but makes decision of what kind of menu to bring up based on where pointer is at time of popping up menu |
| 04:58.00 | Necc | worsest time for donations |
| 04:58.03 | cehteh | robbiethe1st: when you move it has some pixel treshold before registering it as drag or loosing the widget context and using the wrong menu |
| 04:58.10 | robbiethe1st | interesting |
| 04:58.18 | Necc | everybody saving up for holidays or goint to |
| 04:58.40 | cehteh | this is just all crap together .. for once its a bug that it doesnt registers the initial position .. and for another that you cant raise this treshold |
| 04:59.46 | cehteh | ok ... bye |
| 05:00.28 | pauly | so noone needs my n900 |
| 05:00.47 | ShadowJK | Necc, in Finland the prison inmates get holidays too |
| 05:01.16 | pauly | i would put it on ebay but i only got $190 for my n900 |
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| 05:53.28 | Arkenoi | how can i log in to my nokia messaging account via web? when i try to i either get nowhere or to my ovi mail account |
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| 06:11.50 | jiero | better there is a ctrl key on N900 keyboard... |
| 06:11.57 | jiero | then do ctrl left-click... |
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| 08:12.46 | Jaffa | GAN900: ping |
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| 08:24.36 | Hurrian | http://wwwdb.nokia.com/proto |
| 08:24.38 | Hurrian | interesting |
| 08:26.06 | Hurrian | I proudly take responsibility of this prototype and take good care of it. |
| 08:26.11 | Hurrian | In case I lose it I will contact my prototype manager. |
| 08:26.20 | Hurrian | riiiiight |
| 08:27.44 | robbiethe1st | Hm, so what... generate a bunch of generic real-looking gmail addresses, and then spam that form with potential IMEIs? |
| 08:28.02 | robbiethe1st | and see if you can't get any info out of it? |
| 08:29.09 | Kaadlajk | you wont get any |
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| 08:34.20 | BCMM | Hurrian: that sounds suspiciously like a portal quote |
| 08:36.24 | Hurrian | BCMM , indeed |
| 08:37.01 | Hurrian | looks like something you would find on a testing guideline list |
| 08:39.00 | BCMM | robbiethe1st: IMEIs are kinda long numbers |
| 08:39.11 | FIQ|n900 | with the N950, YOU are the test subject |
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| 08:40.06 | robbiethe1st | Take a known device, change a couple of the last numbers? |
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| 08:41.15 | Hurrian | ...due to mandatory testing protocols, you must dispose of your RM-680 in Elop's Nokia Value Incinerator |
| 08:41.22 | Hurrian | sounds about right |
| 08:45.16 | jacekowski | well, IMEI numbers are quite limited |
| 08:45.23 | jacekowski | and sequential for a big part |
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| 08:59.36 | lolcat | I can have a N950? |
| 08:59.40 | lolcat | How much are they?! |
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| 09:03.12 | Termana | good morning |
| 09:04.25 | crashanddie | lolcat, they're not for sale.# |
| 09:04.48 | lolcat | crashanddie: nobody nowhere sells them? |
| 09:04.55 | crashanddie | No. |
| 09:05.01 | lolcat | How EVIL! |
| 09:05.01 | hiemanshu | nope, and if they do, its illegal |
| 09:05.09 | crashanddie | They're development devices only. |
| 09:05.10 | lolcat | What is Elops adress? |
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| 09:06.05 | crashanddie | Woodinville, Washington state, USA. |
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| 09:06.40 | hiemanshu | isnt he from .ca? |
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| 09:09.03 | Termana | Your both wrong. He still receives mail from Redmond. NOTHING SUSS |
| 09:09.16 | Termana | You're* |
| 09:11.28 | lolcat | If I wrote a personal letter to Nokia, with a tale of cancer and a life in sorrow, thin they will send me a N950? |
| 09:13.20 | Termana | No |
| 09:13.26 | Tronic | lolcat: i am pretty sure they will send you an n8, or even worse, a windows phone. |
| 09:13.58 | lolcat | If I say I got brain cancer from their phone? |
| 09:14.31 | Termana | lolcat, they will sue you for making them talk to their lawyers |
| 09:14.39 | Tronic | but you might wanna learn qt, qml, meego etc. and get a developer device still. |
| 09:14.57 | Termana | Tronic, not even possible. |
| 09:15.04 | Tronic | dunno if all 250 are already given away |
| 09:15.11 | hiemanshu | they have been given away |
| 09:15.12 | Termana | Front and back doors are closed |
| 09:15.14 | hiemanshu | but there are more |
| 09:15.21 | Tronic | too bad then. |
| 09:15.24 | hiemanshu | but those have their owners names written too |
| 09:16.23 | Termana | hiemanshu, DDP took the week off! Unbelievable... :p |
| 09:16.38 | hiemanshu | no, expected |
| 09:16.43 | hiemanshu | with all the emails, etc |
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| 09:18.14 | Termana | hiemanshu, I wonder whether they will fasten my order up if I promise them my first baby... :p |
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| 09:21.53 | Termana | Psych, I'm infertile |
| 09:21.57 | Termana | Just kidding :p |
| 09:22.57 | crashanddie | That's what you think. |
| 09:23.38 | Termana | heh |
| 09:23.52 | Termana | makes a doctors appointment |
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| 09:24.11 | Hurrian | termana, pretty easy to check if you're fertil |
| 09:24.18 | Hurrian | step 1, obtain wimmen |
| 09:24.22 | Hurrian | step 2, sexy time |
| 09:24.25 | Hurrian | step 3, wait |
| 09:25.03 | Hurrian | if process returned error code 1, report CNR to bugtracker |
| 09:25.14 | ruskie | Hurrian, step 3a - feed and water and keep safe |
| 09:26.10 | Hurrian | which reminds me, i still havent bothered to build that fully-ext4 maemo root i've been wanting to do |
| 09:26.34 | Hurrian | brb, testing newly compiled kernel |
| 09:26.38 | Termana | Hurrian, Is that the only thing you've got root to? |
| 09:26.45 | ruskie | why would you wan tto go with ext4 root? |
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| 09:26.55 | Termana | I think you just laid out some steps for yourself, like a to-do list or something |
| 09:27.11 | Termana | :p |
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| 09:29.20 | Hurrian | rages |
| 09:35.50 | Hurrian | oh menuconfig, why do you complain about needing 80x21 |
| 09:38.22 | wazd | there are some rumors that "russian" N950's are @ Nokia Russia already :) |
| 09:39.33 | Termana | Da |
| 09:39.49 | achipa | wazd: a Serbian N950 recipient also said his device is @ Nokia Russia. How Russia is a shortcut from Finland to Serbia, I have no idea :) |
| 09:40.02 | ruskie | hehe |
| 09:40.07 | wazd | achipa: me neither :D |
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| 09:40.20 | ruskie | well both using Cyrilic letters ;) |
| 09:40.31 | wazd | achipa: what's wrong with serbian customs anyway :) |
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| 09:41.24 | achipa | wazd: a-Ha ! that actually might be the case - Serbia and Russia have a duty-free regime for most items... |
| 09:41.58 | achipa | while I'm pretty sure you have to pay serious $$$ if you get a package direct from the EU |
| 09:42.35 | wazd | achipa: russian costoms simply don't accept packages with 0 value |
| 09:42.49 | ruskie | fun |
| 09:42.58 | wazd | achipa: can't explain why, it's Russia, you know :D |
| 09:43.10 | Termana | Da |
| 09:43.29 | achipa | wazd: Serbian customs accept it. They have a very simple solution. Handling duty/tax is ~100E, regardless of what you declared. If it has value, it goes extra on top of that. |
| 09:43.39 | wazd | Termana: you sound like Tom Hanks character in "the Terminal" :D |
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| 09:44.17 | wazd | achipa: oh well |
| 09:45.00 | Termana | wazd, heh. "Da" is the only Russian word I know! And I only know it because of an IRC joke :p |
| 09:45.24 | wazd | Termana: there's also "Net" i "Na zdorovie!" :D |
| 09:46.13 | Hurrian | achipa, 100EUR? |
| 09:46.17 | Hurrian | what the f--- |
| 09:46.28 | achipa | Termana: for a more authentic accent say Ðа |
| 09:47.00 | ruskie | Hurrian, welcome to the balkans |
| 09:47.04 | Termana | achipa, in Soviet Russia, accent authenticates you! |
| 09:47.25 | Termana | zing |
| 09:48.01 | Hurrian | that's like shoving a tank barrel straight up your--- |
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| 09:48.26 | achipa | Hurrian: they do that too. Well, at least did in the past. |
| 09:48.56 | wazd | achipa: hehe, Ðа |
| 09:49.05 | ruskie | gah... why does the boss keep wanting on sending me to various traning even though that never helped me with anything |
| 09:49.50 | Hurrian | ruskie, compliance/certifications i guess |
| 09:50.00 | ruskie | nope |
| 09:50.03 | Hurrian | wut |
| 09:50.05 | Termana | ruskie, those are called junkets, and you are suppose to a) drink lots of beer and enjoy yourself at them b) pretend to care about what is actually there and c) tell your boss that you think it is best for the company if he comes too |
| 09:50.28 | Jaffa | WTF. I've just got an email saying "I've bricked my N9, and can't get it working even with the N950 image. Can you help?" |
| 09:50.36 | ruskie | Jaffa, rofl |
| 09:50.43 | ruskie | Termana, sadly not around here |
| 09:51.16 | Jaffa | "Send it to me, and I'll take care of it" was a tempting response ;-) |
| 09:51.22 | andre__ | Jaffa: "No." is also tempting. |
| 09:51.22 | Termana | ruskie, I suppose you don't electrocute people and leave them stuck in elevators either? |
| 09:51.24 | Termana | :p |
| 09:51.30 | Termana | Jaffa, lol |
| 09:51.34 | ruskie | Termana, no elevators around here |
| 09:52.06 | ruskie | as for electrocution... don't need... it self happens due to the crappy wirring |
| 09:52.17 | Termana | heh |
| 09:52.30 | Hurrian | ah, nokia still hasnt fixed the problem of the device constantly self-bricking it seems] |
| 09:52.48 | wazd | Jaffa: You insatiable bastard :D |
| 09:53.50 | ruskie | Termana, around here generally any training is: arrive the day before -> start at 0900 -> end at 2200 -> repeat until done -> go back home |
| 09:53.52 | Jaffa | wazd: Hell, an N9 (unbricked) would have fewer bugs and more features. |
| 09:54.13 | flux | jaffa, well unless you reflashed it with an older n950 image?-) |
| 09:54.42 | Jaffa | Indeed. |
| 09:54.53 | Jaffa | But I'd email Nokia and say "my N9's bust, can I have an image please?" |
| 09:54.57 | ruskie | not to mention someone yaking at me about stuff has never caught on for me to be the best method of learning |
| 09:55.35 | wazd | Jaffa: wrong! "My N9's bust, can I have another one please?" :) |
| 09:56.05 | Jaffa | wazd: Ah, true :-) |
| 09:56.07 | ruskie | not to mention I really don't have any wish to travel |
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| 10:15.01 | Evanescence | The public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY AD88889DKk.... which command can addd and pubkey ? |
| 10:17.26 | Jaffa | http://thenokiablog.com/2011/07/21/nfc-nokia-n9/ makes it easier to decide between the N950 and N9 for me. |
| 10:18.39 | lcuk2 | Jaffa, so which |
| 10:18.52 | SpeedEvil | Fucking stupid. |
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| 10:20.40 | Jaffa | lcuk2: Given I was hoping to be able to buy my lunch in Boots via NFC, having a keyboard trumps minor thoughts about in-house geolocation using NFC tags |
| 10:20.44 | SpeedEvil | I note that all the commenters on the nokia blog like the features that will be left out. |
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| 10:34.18 | DocScrutinizer | (<MohammadAG> it takes a reboot for you to go from a consumer to a power user and back) No, djszapi clearly said aegis CAN NOT get shut down |
| 10:35.16 | DocScrutinizer | allegedly you can boot your own aegis-free kernel, but that's yet to demonstrate to work |
| 10:35.55 | DocScrutinizer | obviously this aegis-free kernel will have no access to modem for example |
| 10:36.47 | DocScrutinizer | rsp, you won't be able to use nokia's dialer |
| 10:37.09 | DocScrutinizer | meegoCE is *supposed* to work, without aegis |
| 10:37.59 | DocScrutinizer | last statement of stskeeps was "some problems still to sort out, but no blinking red lights yet" OWTTE |
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| 10:40.46 | GNUtoo|laptop | ouch |
| 10:40.52 | GNUtoo|laptop | no access to the modem |
| 10:43.57 | DocScrutinizer | GNUtoo|laptop: see next line |
| 10:45.04 | DocScrutinizer | it's unlikely (though possible) they even locked the hw if to modem by crypto means |
| 10:45.51 | DocScrutinizer | but aiui all the libs / binaries related to modem are blobs and signed |
| 10:46.51 | DocScrutinizer | GNUtoo|laptop: won't matter for FSO :-) |
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| 10:53.19 | robbiethe1st | is actually glad now that they didn't approve his N950 application |
| 10:53.21 | *** join/#maemo alehorst (~alehorst@201.47.30.108.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) |
| 10:53.32 | ruskie | why? |
| 10:53.55 | robbiethe1st | No messing with all this CR@P |
| 10:54.02 | robbiethe1st | Like signed binaries and such |
| 10:54.08 | ruskie | ahh |
| 10:54.08 | ruskie | hehe |
| 10:54.21 | robbiethe1st | and well, it leaves me more open for finding an /appropriate/ device in a couple of years |
| 10:54.21 | ruskie | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07/22/bofh_2011_episode_11/ |
| 10:55.18 | DocScrutinizer | Nokia's standard response is "this is meant to become a end user device" |
| 10:55.56 | DocScrutinizer | there are a lot even in community who think aegis is a *good* thing - OMFG |
| 10:56.01 | GNUtoo|laptop | ok |
| 10:56.13 | DocScrutinizer | ~aegis |
| 10:56.13 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, aegis is http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism |
| 10:56.31 | SpeedEvil | Aegis is a good thing - if under the users control. |
| 10:57.03 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: the concept of TC doesn't allow user control, there is not even a concept of user control |
| 10:57.06 | SpeedEvil | I absolutely want my phone to be a brick, if stolen. |
| 10:57.09 | SpeedEvil | Sure it does. |
| 10:57.20 | DocScrutinizer | (well there is, but it's complex and never been implemented) |
| 10:57.29 | SpeedEvil | There is nothing stopping the user from having the auth keys in principle. |
| 10:57.35 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 10:57.44 | DocScrutinizer | there's a whole lot |
| 10:57.55 | DocScrutinizer | blocking this to ever happen |
| 10:58.18 | Hurrian | derp dee herp, why not encrypt the whole filesystem, add a hardware crypto accelerator, and leave the key somewhere in the SoC, and drop the key on, say a SMSCON command |
| 10:58.19 | robbiethe1st | See, that's the thing. If I have the keys, it's a good thing. If I *don't* have the keys, it's unacceptable. |
| 10:58.27 | DocScrutinizer | 1st: you can't use the same key on each device then |
| 10:58.50 | SpeedEvil | That's not a hideous barrier - there is always IMEI |
| 10:58.58 | DocScrutinizer | 2nd: you can't deploy the secretkey on device then |
| 10:59.09 | Hurrian | SpeedEvil , reminds me a lot of Microsoft Palladium |
| 10:59.20 | robbiethe1st | You can always have it generated on first boot, and have it encrypt the fs then |
| 10:59.23 | Hurrian | not protecting the user's content, it's protecting others' content |
| 10:59.28 | robbiethe1st | or actually, when you enable the option |
| 10:59.42 | SpeedEvil | The secret key is the secret key in the chip XOR the IMEI or something. |
| 10:59.45 | Hurrian | oh, and what's so bad about openssl and random crap generation? |
| 10:59.55 | SpeedEvil | Rea by the on-chip bootloader, for example |
| 10:59.59 | SpeedEvil | Read |
| 11:00.08 | DocScrutinizer | robbiethe1st: nonsense |
| 11:00.11 | Hurrian | not like we wouldnt wait a few minutes while it reads from /dev/random |
| 11:00.22 | robbiethe1st | why not? |
| 11:00.35 | robbiethe1st | Obviously Nokia'd never do it, but that's work, I think... |
| 11:00.47 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: haha |
| 11:00.55 | SpeedEvil | Not XOR, clearly |
| 11:01.13 | Hurrian | also, doesnt look like a feature that would belong on a NSeries device |
| 11:01.26 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: that ofers the key to malware, as IMEI can get read out easily |
| 11:01.27 | Hurrian | >>>>>>E-series |
| 11:01.56 | SpeedEvil | The secret key would not be readable through the device |
| 11:02.37 | Hurrian | speedevil, hmm, it would probably need to be remade everytime the os is reflashed |
| 11:02.44 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: please check how your ssh-keys work |
| 11:03.08 | Hurrian | either that or everything passes thru the SoC for crypting everytime you flash |
| 11:03.31 | Hurrian | either way, both should deter desoldering, mounting and dumping |
| 11:04.41 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: also for your usecase there are already solutions, they are called PAM and cryptofs |
| 11:04.44 | SpeedEvil | I've ot properly woken up |
| 11:05.12 | SpeedEvil | I want the device to be an actual brick, if it's stolen. |
| 11:05.19 | SpeedEvil | Flashing will not ressurect it. |
| 11:05.30 | Hurrian | hmm |
| 11:05.53 | DocScrutinizer | well, that's technically unfeasible today |
| 11:05.56 | lcuk | Jaffa, re: nfc |
| 11:06.14 | lcuk | do you think WP will support it |
| 11:06.30 | DocScrutinizer | you always can reflash via JTAG, or by any other laboratory means |
| 11:06.35 | Hurrian | how do we prevent that from being abused? |
| 11:06.41 | Hurrian | anyways, omap3 rom is ROM |
| 11:06.54 | Hurrian | unless you want to use an efuse and burn some crap |
| 11:07.03 | Hurrian | permaflags "NEVER BOOT" |
| 11:07.43 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: Sure it's not. SOC reads out IMEI in early boot, uses that and the 'nokia' key to verify the signature of the kernel/... |
| 11:08.05 | SpeedEvil | s/kernel/bootloader/ |
| 11:08.14 | DocScrutinizer | that's about what aegis does |
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| 11:12.22 | Jaffa | lcuk: No idea, TBH |
| 11:13.19 | MohammadAG | I'll ask again since this chan was dead :P |
| 11:13.34 | MohammadAG | is there a way to go over 100% on lineout |
| 11:13.45 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: anyway if there'S a tool you can use to sign your new image to flash with your imei, then this tool will get abused and you are nowhere. Would require still Nokia has the only secret key and offers a individually signed kernel to you, only when you can authenticate |
| 11:14.54 | SpeedEvil | a sticker with the key on the phone. |
| 11:14.57 | SpeedEvil | Or something |
| 11:15.33 | SpeedEvil | I don't mean IMEI specifically - some unique ID that can be read from the modem |
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| 11:16.32 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: that's exactly the point - it MUST NOT be readable anywhere |
| 11:16.55 | DocScrutinizer | TPM is all about NOT making key readable |
| 11:17.47 | SpeedEvil | You are not reading a key that will allow it to boot. |
| 11:18.04 | DocScrutinizer | and this is the one property that causes most of TC headache |
| 11:18.22 | SpeedEvil | You are readig a value which is hashed with the secret key to make the per-phone secret |
| 11:18.46 | DocScrutinizer | so it IS NO SECRET anymore |
| 11:19.26 | jacekowski | if it's accessible it can be reverse engineered |
| 11:19.32 | jacekowski | esspecialy if you let user run it's own apps |
| 11:19.45 | jacekowski | as far as i understand aegis is just a software |
| 11:19.48 | DocScrutinizer | jacekowski: exactly |
| 11:19.56 | DocScrutinizer | no it isn't |
| 11:20.05 | SpeedEvil | jacekowski: Sure - reverse engineered - which won't get you anything unless you can change the ID sent to the SoC in early boot |
| 11:20.08 | DocScrutinizer | it's a full implemetation of TC |
| 11:20.11 | SpeedEvil | anyway - going to sleep. |
| 11:20.20 | SpeedEvil | Horribly tired. |
| 11:22.19 | *** join/#maemo FIQ|n900 (~FIQ@unaffiliated/fiq) |
| 11:22.30 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: simple as milk: nolo is signed, get your private nolo that checks for ser# of SoC (yes there is), and if it doesn't match you shutdown immediately |
| 11:23.26 | DocScrutinizer | as long as Nokia doesn't deploy NOLO without this feature, only your personal NOLO will work with that device |
| 11:24.09 | DocScrutinizer | if Nokia decides to deploy tools to build NOLO yourself, the whole purpose is flawed |
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| 11:25.46 | DocScrutinizer | NB this is in no way different to burning a individual rootcert to every device and sign each nolo with a different key |
| 11:26.33 | DocScrutinizer | it still relies on some secret kept smewhere, where YOU don't have access to it |
| 11:27.31 | DocScrutinizer | as soon as you get access to the secret without strong authentication, your security is flawed as hackers can get the secret as well |
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| 11:28.29 | DocScrutinizer | that's a basic operation principle of TC and chains-of-trust |
| 11:32.03 | DocScrutinizer | and let's assume one day somebody finds N900 xloader has a hash that satisfies N9 bootrom cert, you probably have found the single point to permanently break the whole aegis chain-of-trust, as N900 xloader does not check for NOLO signature |
| 11:32.58 | scoobertron | has anyone been able to use their n900 as a dlna controller? I have tried zhaan, but while it picks up on my dlna devices, it seems to only play one track at a time. |
| 11:33.25 | DocScrutinizer | it was "just" an incredible amount of work then, to patch all the aegis functions in kernel |
| 11:33.30 | SpeedEvil | I'm assuming the secret is only published in a complete way on a sticker on the phone |
| 11:33.46 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise it never gets outside of the SOC |
| 11:35.12 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: there are two "secrets": the secret-key aka private-key that's needed to sign things and the also "secret" pubkey in TPM that is used to verify signatures |
| 11:36.43 | DocScrutinizer | the secret property of pubkey is one of the most nasty properties of TPM |
| 11:36.45 | MohammadAG | no one? |
| 11:37.07 | robbiethe1st | Can't you create the pubkey from the privkey if you get it? |
| 11:37.12 | wazd | wooo! |
| 11:37.20 | wazd | 's going to pick up his N950! |
| 11:37.30 | DocScrutinizer | robbiethe1st: nope |
| 11:37.43 | DocScrutinizer | generating a key pair is an atomic process |
| 11:38.47 | DocScrutinizer | robbiethe1st: read about the basics e.g. in arbitrary GPG tutorials |
| 11:38.52 | robbiethe1st | darn |
| 11:39.56 | robbiethe1st | Well, this is why I really hate TC. |
| 11:39.58 | scoobertron | similarly, mediabox allows me to select a media renderer, but then nothing happens |
| 11:43.17 | Evanescence | The public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY AD88889DKk.... which command can addd and pubkey ? |
| 11:43.49 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: gpg --addkey |
| 11:43.56 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: j/k |
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| 11:44.08 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: sorry your question laks ALL context |
| 11:44.57 | Evanescence | DocScrutinizer: more detail. I searched on maemo.org, find similar question, And I tried similar command in ubuntu apply on N900. but does not work |
| 11:45.18 | DocScrutinizer | ~question |
| 11:45.18 | infobot | somebody said question was If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
| 11:46.23 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: we can't see in our crystal ball what's been the command you tried when you got that error, so how could we know an answer? |
| 11:46.59 | *** join/#maemo Hurrian (~sumomo@121.54.2.104) |
| 11:47.03 | Evanescence | oh, I'm copying that command... |
| 11:47.14 | Evanescence | gpg --keyserver pgpkeys.mit.edu --recv-key D6B6DB186A68F637 |
| 11:47.19 | DocScrutinizer | even if we may anticipate you are talking about maemo5 and N900, we still don't see from the error what's been the procedure that triggered it |
| 11:47.22 | Evanescence | gpg -a --export D6B6DB186A68F637 | sudo apt-key add - |
| 11:47.34 | Evanescence | sudo apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys D6B6DB186A68F637 |
| 11:47.53 | Hurrian | people are dist-upgrading maemo 5 to ubuntu ARM? |
| 11:48.11 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: HAHA sure |
| 11:48.21 | Hurrian | lol |
| 11:48.43 | Hurrian | oh, on a side note, it'd be fun if we could use a N900 to flash another N900 using on-device flasher |
| 11:48.48 | DocScrutinizer | apt-get dist-upgrade Ubuntu-ARM |
| 11:49.03 | Evanescence | no, I try to add PUBKEY from ubuntu's key server. because I do not know N900's key server |
| 11:49.29 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: on a sidenote: I think that already has been done ;-P |
| 11:51.03 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: sorry, there seem to be waaay to many incorrect assumptions this statement is based on, so no way to give an answer |
| 11:51.28 | Evanescence | does not |
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| 11:51.48 | DocScrutinizer | Evanescence: I'm trying to coat my N900 with teflon as the frying of egs doesn't work |
| 11:51.55 | Hurrian | pretty disappointed that the N900 doesnt have IR transciever |
| 11:52.23 | Hurrian | with it being TX-only, it's pretty obvious what it's for |
| 11:52.25 | DocScrutinizer | PLZ how can I coat my N900 with teflon???!?? |
| 11:53.05 | Hurrian | DocScrutinizer , obtain teflon nail coat |
| 11:53.15 | Hurrian | brush all over device |
| 11:53.35 | Hurrian | kernel-config limits 9001 9001 |
| 11:54.15 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: thanks :-D could you help Evanescence now please? |
| 11:54.35 | Hurrian | what exactly is he trying to do? |
| 11:54.43 | DocScrutinizer | nobody knows |
| 11:55.31 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-07-22 13:47:22] <Evanescence> gpg -a --export D6B6DB186A68F637 | sudo apt-key add - |
| 11:55.32 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-07-22 13:47:34] <Evanescence> sudo apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys D6B6DB186A68F637 |
| 11:55.38 | DocScrutinizer | if that helps :-D |
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| 11:57.08 | DocScrutinizer | I *could* suspect he's trying to apt-get install $random-ubuntu-pkg and gets a weird error from apt, equally weird to the intended action |
| 11:57.35 | DocScrutinizer | but that's mere guesswork |
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| 11:59.34 | DocScrutinizer | I'm not even sure he's using maemo |
| 12:02.17 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: you're aware that it needs only ~4 components to build a IR-RX dongle to plug to AV? |
| 12:03.04 | DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: though a proper USB IrDA stick plus h-e-n will serve you better |
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| 12:50.02 | mtnbkr | hey guys... I need some serious help. :( had a corrupted photo on my N900 and it would not let me rsync past this one phone, nor see any of them when ssh'ed into the N900, but they would display in the photo app. In a rush I FOOLISHLY followed this post http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43698 (post #7) to repair the filesystem and now my phone just reboots over and over... How can I get my N900 out of this loop, f |
| 12:50.02 | mtnbkr | sck the /home partition and NOT lose my photos? |
| 12:51.25 | ccooke | is the recovery boot working? |
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| 12:52.38 | mtnbkr | ccooke: URL please. :) |
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| 12:56.04 | ccooke | mtnbkr: can't find it, damn. and I don't use my n900 any more (the wife has it, since it's the last one with a workind usb port) |
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| 13:01.06 | mtnbkr | ccooke: I am pretty much freaking out... I need my N900 to be working - use it for work - and I need the photos what else can i do - without re-flashing it. :( |
| 13:01.26 | flux | aren't the photos in the emmc, which is safe in flashing? |
| 13:01.32 | flux | of course, unless you reflash the emmc |
| 13:02.01 | ccooke | okay. There's a recovery mode that boots to a shell. IIRC it's accessed via booting with.. d and s held down? Anyone remember? |
| 13:02.07 | flux | I don't think it solves the original problem, though |
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| 13:06.08 | DocScrutinizer | mtnbkr: flashing rootfs seems the way to go |
| 13:06.15 | mtnbkr | if I can get to a shell promt, I can fsck th e/home partition, (where the photos live, no? |
| 13:06.47 | mtnbkr | DocScrutinizer: If I flash ONLY rootfs, I will be safe (and my /home will not be touched right? |
| 13:06.58 | DocScrutinizer | ccooke: there's no such thing |
| 13:07.07 | DocScrutinizer | mtnbkr: right |
| 13:07.27 | ccooke | DocScrutinizer: damn, brain is misfiring. |
| 13:07.29 | Trewas | mtnbkr: photos are in MyDocs, though thumbnails are in home |
| 13:07.29 | mtnbkr | I am seriously nervous about this... |
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| 13:08.01 | mtnbkr | Trewas: right, but isn't MyDocs on the /home partition? |
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| 13:08.10 | DocScrutinizer | no |
| 13:08.16 | Trewas | mtnbkr: no, it is a separate fat32 partition |
| 13:08.23 | DocScrutinizer | mydocs is the 28MB VFAT partition |
| 13:08.31 | DocScrutinizer | GB even |
| 13:09.01 | mtnbkr | ahhh Ok... I can not see mine now (currently rebooting over and over ) and I am in panic mode. :) |
| 13:09.49 | DocScrutinizer | it's like /home is a mount of ext3 2GB partition to / ubifs, and MyDocs is a mount of 28GB VFAT to /home/user/MyDocs ext3 |
| 13:09.50 | Trewas | MyDocs is quite easy to fsck manually, just umount and fsck -a /the/correct/dev... I have needed to do that a few times after it was read-only mounted because of unclean umount/shutdown |
| 13:10.48 | DocScrutinizer | mtnbkr: as soon as your bootloop got fixed, plug the device to your PC in mass storage mode, and backup your whole MyDocs |
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| 13:11.58 | DocScrutinizer | then you might want to run fsck against it, also from PC which is waaaay faste than on device |
| 13:12.09 | DocScrutinizer | afaik |
| 13:12.11 | *** join/#maemo cpscotti (~cpscotti@46.208.181.50) |
| 13:12.19 | DocScrutinizer | (never tested) |
| 13:12.38 | mtnbkr | right,,, So I want to flash fisaco image, correct? http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware |
| 13:12.44 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 13:12.48 | mtnbkr | brb |
| 13:12.50 | mtnbkr | thanks |
| 13:12.50 | Trewas | DocScrutinizer: naah, it only takes under a minute even on the device, vfat is quick to fsck because it doesn't do much |
| 13:13.25 | DocScrutinizer | Trewas: I heard other reports, which were about hours and hours |
| 13:13.41 | Trewas | DocScrutinizer: well, maybe if it is badly enough broken |
| 13:13.54 | DocScrutinizer | it depends on number of files you got there |
| 13:14.38 | DocScrutinizer | and starting at an arbitrary number of files, fsck will enter swap-hell mode on device |
| 13:15.04 | DocScrutinizer | as the data structures are kept in RAM |
| 13:15.35 | DocScrutinizer | at this moment things become really slow |
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| 13:15.57 | DocScrutinizer | like by factor 100 slower |
| 13:16.00 | merlin1991 | tell me about swap hell |
| 13:16.36 | DocScrutinizer | while the total time needed is also increased by the mere number of files to check |
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| 13:17.29 | merlin1991 | last week I got a notebook back where the other company installed a vm image because they didn't want to give away there propertiary installers, genius guy there was wondering why everything sucked so hard and was uberslow, well he gave the vm 1500 mb ram while the machine only had 1gb physically, lol? |
| 13:17.51 | DocScrutinizer | so starting with a number of files on the checked volume that's dependent on your free RAM, you'll see a knee in performance when number of files goes beyond that limit |
| 13:18.43 | DocScrutinizer | and fsck starts to swap like mad |
| 13:18.57 | DocScrutinizer | NB swap is on same chip as MyDocs |
| 13:20.02 | DocScrutinizer | so it will *really* slow down, factor 100, factor 1000, up to your guess |
| 13:20.36 | flux | it doesn't take a lot of memory, though |
| 13:20.50 | flux | I've used dosfsck with an environment with maybe 16M memory and many thousands files |
| 13:21.00 | flux | but iirc 100k was not manageable anymore :) |
| 13:21.11 | DocScrutinizer | depends on directory tree complexity I guess |
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| 13:22.07 | DocScrutinizer | I bet walking the directory tree is a recursive function in fsck |
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| 13:24.25 | DocScrutinizer | I talked with werber almesberger about it, and iirc he claimed he implemented it in a non-optimized way ;-D |
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| 13:24.32 | DocScrutinizer | werner* |
| 13:25.41 | flux | years ago, I modified dosfsck to be slightly more memory efficient (iirc basically packing the fields tighter), to be able to fsck more files |
| 13:25.45 | flux | I don't remember the numbers, though |
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| 13:29.08 | mtnbkr | DocScrutinizer: phone flashed with the fiasco/combined... Most personalized settings and all installed programs lost, but photos still there. :) Now to install gainroot, openssh, and grsync and a few others |
| 13:29.30 | DocScrutinizer | first backup your photos to PC! |
| 13:30.17 | mtnbkr | DocScrutinizer: I will try, but it will not read past a certain photo that I took on Tuesday... |
| 13:30.59 | DocScrutinizer | so use dd to create an image on your PC, so you won't lose data when you try to fix it with fsck |
| 13:31.36 | mtnbkr | yeah, will do |
| 13:31.42 | DocScrutinizer | you could loopmount that image on your PC and do to it whatever you need to, to recover the data |
| 13:33.26 | DocScrutinizer | while you're basically free to mkfs.vfat on MyDocs then, if fsck.vfat doesn't fix the issue |
| 13:33.41 | DocScrutinizer | or simply flash VANILLA :-) |
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| 13:34.14 | *** join/#maemo wazd (~user@83.149.8.32) |
| 13:34.24 | wazd | Tadaaa :) |
| 13:34.45 | DocScrutinizer | wazd: :-D ? |
| 13:35.16 | wazd | Me haz n950 too :) |
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| 13:36.32 | DocScrutinizer | wazd: \o/ |
| 13:36.42 | wazd | :) |
| 13:41.25 | wazd | The keyboard is just awesome |
| 13:41.29 | wazd | Oh my |
| 13:41.50 | SpeedEvil | :) :( |
| 13:42.17 | lcuk | wazd, it is nice isn't it?! |
| 13:42.40 | wazd | Incredible! |
| 13:43.09 | wazd | The screen is 16bpp, I will not comment on that :) |
| 13:43.37 | lcuk | wazd, isn't that more the graphics mode? |
| 13:43.39 | wazd | Profiles switch is really smart |
| 13:44.00 | lcuk | you mean volume thingie? |
| 13:44.02 | DocScrutinizer | sed -i "s/c-ts/r-ts/; s/harmattan&aegis/maemo5/" N950 && echo "perfect device" |
| 13:44.03 | lcuk | likes that too |
| 13:44.04 | wazd | Lcuk: maybe, but still :) |
| 13:45.05 | DocScrutinizer | I'd not even call this "profile switching" |
| 13:45.18 | DocScrutinizer | in my book that's no profiles at all |
| 13:45.54 | wazd | DocScrutinizer: well, yes |
| 13:46.06 | wazd | Doc: who cares :D |
| 13:46.16 | DocScrutinizer | well, I do |
| 13:46.34 | DocScrutinizer | I need more than just normal and silent "profile" |
| 13:47.07 | wazd | I like the E series total customization |
| 13:47.16 | DocScrutinizer | I have a special profile for MP3 player mode, for home stereo, for example on N900 |
| 13:47.23 | jaska | so, how bad is aegis, cant use dialer with modified stuff? |
| 13:47.31 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 13:48.00 | jaska | ok, guess i should console myself with that then as i dont have a n950 |
| 13:48.36 | jaska | thats probably worst hitlerware yet seen on a smartphone?:) |
| 13:48.42 | DocScrutinizer | the promised option to completely switch off aegis isn't there |
| 13:48.45 | SpeedEvil | jaska: Err - no. |
| 13:48.57 | SpeedEvil | jaska: Apple/... phones are (by intent) locked down way more) |
| 13:49.07 | jaska | yes, but the lockdown isnt enforced |
| 13:49.44 | jaska | by tpm junk with a trust chain |
| 13:49.54 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, I thought the thing was being able to boot a non-aegis firmware |
| 13:50.00 | lcuk | ie choose, aegis or normal |
| 13:50.09 | lcuk | and from what I gather the n950-ce is coming along |
| 13:50.21 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: stskeeps is about to make that happen - for now he has "some issues to fix" with it |
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| 13:50.58 | DocScrutinizer | and "being able to boot non aegis firmware" doesn't mean you can disable aegis in harmattan |
| 13:51.19 | DocScrutinizer | it just means you *should* be able to boot meegoCE / SHR / whatever |
| 13:52.33 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, yes, but where is it documented that aegis will be able to be disabled completely from within the normal harmattan os? |
| 13:52.35 | DocScrutinizer | obviously for multiboot the meegoCE crew needs moslo which still isn't provided by Nokia |
| 13:52.54 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: nfc |
| 13:53.51 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: where is it documented your car can use arbitrary gasoline fuel and doesn't require the one from your car manufacturer? |
| 13:54.41 | DocScrutinizer | aiui on meegoconf the "ommunity" was told "yes, you can switch off aegis" |
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| 13:55.37 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, slide 5 |
| 13:55.38 | lcuk | http://www.slideshare.net/reshetov/maemo-platform-security-fosdem |
| 13:56.05 | lcuk | "Nokia Signed SW Image" *OR* "Unsigned SW Image" |
| 13:56.51 | DocScrutinizer | so what? |
| 13:57.13 | DocScrutinizer | how's that related to "yes, you can switch off aegis"? |
| 13:58.26 | DocScrutinizer | this is a "statement" that suggests you should be able to load meegoCE, nothing more |
| 13:59.01 | DocScrutinizer | and as mentioned above stskeeps is facing "issues" even with this, aiui |
| 13:59.24 | DocScrutinizer | multiboot is not a part of this statement, obviously |
| 13:59.31 | DocScrutinizer | as it needs moslo |
| 13:59.50 | wazd | There's no Moscow in Harmattan timezones :P |
| 14:00.05 | jaska | nuke kreml! |
| 14:00.10 | wazd | That explains everything :) |
| 14:00.44 | Sicelo | lol.. Mbabane included? |
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| 14:03.32 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: note that even Nokia employees agree on developer mode being way too restrictive, and there's no use in a developer mode that's not completely open, as for testing with aegis we always have aegis-enabled "normal" mode |
| 14:04.52 | Arkenoi | how can i log in to my nokia messaging account via web? when i try to i either get nowhere or to my ovi mail account |
| 14:05.47 | DocScrutinizer | the concept of TC being "open" mode fornids running of apps that require "trusted" aka "normal" mode. What aegis does is *bricking* the system and enforcing a reflash when you dare to edit in situ a python script you installed via SDK |
| 14:06.36 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: isn't ovi == nokia, for messaging? |
| 14:07.03 | Termana | Heil Aegis |
| 14:08.13 | Arkenoi | DocScrutinizer: two different things: ovi mail == yet another stupid imap mailbox, nokia messaging == proprietary push email protocol that allows instant delivery from third-party email providers |
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| 14:09.58 | Arkenoi | i'd even say two completely *unrelated* things, so suggesting user to log in to ovi mail when he needs nokia messaging is worse than stupid |
| 14:10.39 | Arkenoi | but that's what happens when i try to enter messaging.nokia.com or nokia.com/messaging |
| 14:11.17 | DocScrutinizer | much confusion about all this, at Nokia. Last impression it gave me was all is finally yahoo mail |
| 14:11.26 | wazd | I was wrong, there's Moscow :) |
| 14:11.37 | DocScrutinizer | wazd: thought as much |
| 14:11.54 | Arkenoi | ovi mail, yes. i do not give a flying fsck to ovi mail, i need nokia messaging. |
| 14:12.26 | wazd | Arkenoi: isn't it a universal account like google has? |
| 14:14.11 | DocScrutinizer | seems to recall a a nokia-developer monthly or similar announcement where it was written "Nokia mail now is Yahoo mail" |
| 14:15.08 | Arkenoi | wazd: before they messed the whole thing up, i logged in via web interface, attached extra mailboxes and then all of those are in modest under nokia messaging folder. damn ugly (why should i care about transport protocol, damn, what an idiot could imagine that it is information so important for user that mailboxes should be grouped by transport in modest!) , but it is the best thing possible. |
| 14:15.33 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: KISS test: create a new Nokia-mail account |
| 14:15.41 | RST38h | Arkenoi: pvanhoof, no? |
| 14:15.45 | Arkenoi | i do not care about "nokia mail" whatever they call the service that is yet another imap mailbox, is it yahoo driven or not |
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| 14:16.03 | Arkenoi | i do not even care about my @ovi.com address |
| 14:16.20 | Arkenoi | i need push email for several mailboxes that have nothing to do with nokia |
| 14:17.02 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: sorry then |
| 14:17.36 | Sicelo | indeed DocScrutinizer. ovi mail even opens up with a yahoo interface now |
| 14:17.42 | Arkenoi | the most ridiculous thing is that it works |
| 14:17.58 | Arkenoi | i just cannot change any settings because it is done via web site |
| 14:18.08 | Arkenoi | i cannot add or remove mailboxes |
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| 14:19.34 | DocScrutinizer | open a ticket |
| 14:22.38 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: btw >>proprietary push email protocol that allows instant delivery from third-party email providers<< can not be correct, as the "proprietary protocol" had to be supported by $random-third-party which quite obviously isn't going to happen |
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| 14:24.14 | DocScrutinizer | only way to make this happen is when your pushmail provider is polling your $random-mail-accounts and then aggregates and delivers vie the proprietary protocol |
| 14:24.35 | DocScrutinizer | via* |
| 14:25.22 | Sicelo | that's how it works. a friend is using it. |
| 14:27.41 | DocScrutinizer | means you have to pass your $random-account credentials to Nokia so they can poll your e.g. web.de account. Now Nokia migrated all nokia-messaging to yahoo aiui, and I'm rather sure I wouldn't like that move if I ever had used Nokia's mail-aggregation function. Yahoo no way ever gets any password for $random accounts from me |
| 14:28.08 | pvanhoof | RST38h, sorry? |
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| 14:29.54 | pvanhoof | RST38h, Arkenoi sorry, i was not involved in the UI decisions made for modest, only in the code that talks with the IMAP and POP servers |
| 14:29.58 | RST38h | pvanhoof: Arkanoid has been asking about Modest and why its UI is arranged this way |
| 14:30.20 | pvanhoof | sure, i had no hand in UI decisions about modest |
| 14:30.27 | RST38h | finally tried fMSX on a real physical Android device. Well, it works... |
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| 14:38.26 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: and last time I tried to access my Nokia/Ovi mail settings I got trapped in a yahoo page with no reasonable way out, so I guess there's still quite some borkage to b found introduced by the nokia->yahoo migration (though I can't really test for pushmail as I always refused to use it, for reasons elaborated above). So your best bet is to open a ticket against the issue, at nokia bugtracker, or mail support@nokia |
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| 15:44.11 | GAN900 | Jaffa, pong? |
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| 16:22.15 | mgedmin | the broken imgur integration package annoys |
| 16:22.25 | mgedmin | where's the maintainer hiding? |
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| 17:12.16 | GAN900 | When Nokia lobotomizes a browser they don't do it by half-measure, do they? |
| 17:13.02 | ShadowJK | hm? |
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| 17:17.20 | casketizer | Nokia doesn't like browsers. just look at s60v3/5 worst browsers @ earth |
| 17:22.47 | ShadowJK | the one they licensed before that was worse :-) |
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| 17:25.36 | casketizer | does S^3 still have the same browser as s60v5 ? |
| 17:25.59 | casketizer | i never bothered to try any S^3 device... |
| 17:27.03 | ShadowJK | it's not like the browser behaves the same way on any two devices, they spend shitloads of money on "differentiation" ;-) |
| 17:27.45 | casketizer | i found it pretty identical on the s60v5 devices i tried |
| 17:27.57 | casketizer | even on a samsung one |
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| 17:30.37 | casketizer | if there hadnt been opera it would have been grim |
| 17:34.07 | GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, the WebKit browser in Harmattan is useless. |
| 17:34.23 | ShadowJK | lol |
| 17:35.01 | GeneralAntilles | I shudder to think what having to use Firefox as the primary browser is going to be like. |
| 17:35.11 | ShadowJK | I get the image of a kid playing with legos building a castle, and just when it gets to a recognizable state the kid has a fit of rage and knocks down his half built castle and starts over |
| 17:36.48 | casketizer | i really dont get it why they dropped microb |
| 17:37.04 | ShadowJK | I haven't heard any better theory than mine |
| 17:37.20 | ShadowJK | (They couldn't make mozilla stop stealing focus and closing the vkbd) |
| 17:37.21 | casketizer | after countless fail browsers they do it right and then drop it... |
| 17:37.57 | GeneralAntilles | Because they wanted browser coherence across Symbian and MeeGo. |
| 17:38.17 | casketizer | GeneralAntilles, have you tried FFx mobile 5? |
| 17:38.38 | GeneralAntilles | The Harmattan package isn't available. |
| 17:38.46 | casketizer | its pretty decent on android and usable on maemo |
| 17:40.04 | casketizer | if u can live without system integration (mailto support etc) the maemo qt version is pretty good and fast |
| 17:40.14 | ShadowJK | For some reason the fennec release versions eat half hte memory of the alpha versions |
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| 17:40.51 | casketizer | v5 release is pretty good, i was surprised |
| 17:42.01 | ShadowJK | crashes too much to be usable for me |
| 17:42.07 | ShadowJK | speedwise it's nearly there |
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| 17:43.22 | casketizer | did u wipe profile be4 u install 5? |
| 17:43.39 | casketizer | that stopped the random crashes for me |
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| 19:14.57 | Shapeshifter | I don't see what everybody likes about microb. it's terribly slow and... it's terribly slow. that's pretty much it. unbearably slow in every regard. starting up, being able to enter a url (I hate how it always clears the url I was already typing after starting it), loading pages... |
| 19:15.22 | mgedmin | basically, the N900 is not powerful enough |
| 19:15.23 | Shapeshifter | opera is so much faster |
| 19:15.38 | mgedmin | although it's interesting to hear existence proofs about other software managing to be faster |
| 19:15.44 | GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, Opera isn't native. |
| 19:15.51 | mgedmin | I once tried fennec and found microB to be much faster |
| 19:15.51 | Shapeshifter | 'native'? |
| 19:15.59 | GeneralAntilles | Native widgets |
| 19:16.00 | Shapeshifter | mgedmin: yes, fennec is even slower. |
| 19:16.11 | Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: is this a bad thing, or does it even matter? |
| 19:20.02 | Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: if native widgets are the reason microb is slow, then away with them... |
| 19:24.04 | wmarone | native widgets are not why microb is slow |
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| 19:24.39 | wmarone | if anything, it's memory usage |
| 19:27.00 | GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, bothers me. |
| 19:27.06 | GeneralAntilles | I want native browsers. |
| 19:27.15 | GeneralAntilles | MicroB still feels the smoothest out of all of them for me. |
| 19:27.18 | GeneralAntilles | even though it's slow |
| 19:27.26 | GeneralAntilles | and has the worst JS engine in existence. |
| 19:27.29 | mgedmin | how native is MicroB, actually? |
| 19:27.35 | mgedmin | it's based on geck |
| 19:27.42 | mgedmin | I thought it reimplemented all the widgets |
| 19:27.55 | mgedmin | in XUL or whatnot |
| 19:28.52 | casketizer | GeneralAntilles, is the harmattan browser as bad as the symbian browser ? |
| 19:31.37 | mgedmin | harmattan browser is semi-bad |
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| 19:31.48 | mgedmin | as in: feels unfinished |
| 19:31.57 | mgedmin | no text selection, e.g. |
| 19:32.04 | mgedmin | crashes when you try to resize an image |
| 19:32.07 | mgedmin | no ssl |
| 19:32.18 | mgedmin | or was it no self-signed ssl? |
| 19:32.26 | mgedmin | on the other hand it feels nice and snappy |
| 19:32.46 | mgedmin | e.g. resize/relayout when you switch from portrait to landscape or vice versa is fast |
| 19:32.50 | frals | i wonder if it feels unfinished ebcause you are on *PREPRODUCTION* software |
| 19:32.52 | mgedmin | scrolling is very smooth |
| 19:33.00 | mgedmin | frals, exactly! |
| 19:33.06 | mgedmin | oh crap! |
| 19:33.09 | mgedmin | I just realized one thing |
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| 19:33.27 | mgedmin | harmattan browser doesn't let you scroll using the hardware arrow keys |
| 19:33.45 | mgedmin | and since n9 doesn't have them, this bug might not get fixed in the final firmware |
| 19:34.03 | casketizer | WONTFIX |
| 19:34.10 | casketizer | aka feature |
| 19:34.48 | mgedmin | hm, actually... |
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| 19:35.23 | mgedmin | iirc I _could_ scroll with arrow keys in Google Reader (non-mobile), and _couldn't_ scroll with touch in those nested divs with text-overflow: scroll (I assume?) |
| 19:35.40 | mgedmin | but on Google Reader (mobile) it's the other way around: touch scrolling works, keys don't |
| 19:35.49 | mgedmin | either way, I'm unhappy |
| 19:35.53 | mgedmin | a bit |
| 19:36.28 | sp3000 | the less mobile greader may well be implementing it itself |
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| 19:39.21 | Jaffa | Evening all |
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| 19:43.07 | lcuk | \o Jaffa |
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| 19:44.24 | Jaffa | offs. Back soon(ish) |
| 19:44.34 | vi__ | MohammadAG: yo |
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| 19:48.06 | mgedmin | hehe the 770's foldable stand fits a n950 perfectly |
| 19:57.19 | ShadowJK | The stall when entering URL into microb is shared with most mozilla things the past 5-10 years |
| 19:57.28 | ShadowJK | got worse once they switched to sqlite too |
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| 20:45.27 | GeneralAntilles | What's the technical term for grayed out text that appears in a text entry field to tell you what the field's for? |
| 20:46.46 | MohammadAG | placeholder text |
| 20:47.53 | GeneralAntilles | Thanks |
| 20:50.47 | vdv | isn't it posible to smooth scroll in fbreader with volume buttons? |
| 20:51.09 | GeneralAntilles | No |
| 20:51.15 | GeneralAntilles | It wouldn't render fast enough anyway. |
| 20:51.16 | vdv | volume buttons only change to the next/prev page here |
| 20:51.37 | vdv | i just mean line by line scrolling |
| 20:51.45 | lcuk | GeneralAntilles, will the n950 build allow this |
| 20:51.55 | GeneralAntilles | lcuk, libzlib is really slow. |
| 20:51.56 | lcuk | because I know on some platforms fbreader has smooth scrolling |
| 20:51.59 | GeneralAntilles | Don't know. |
| 20:52.05 | GeneralAntilles | Yeah, Android |
| 20:52.07 | lcuk | yeah we know issues of speed |
| 20:52.13 | GeneralAntilles | But I think their implementation is a little different. |
| 20:52.17 | GeneralAntilles | is the wrong person to ask. |
| 20:52.18 | lcuk | yeah I know |
| 20:52.21 | vdv | i.e. not just show next/prev. page, but really scroll |
| 20:52.22 | lcuk | different source path |
| 20:52.30 | GeneralAntilles | vdv, change the scroll amount in setting. |
| 20:52.36 | lcuk | vdv, yes this discussion has raged since at least n8x0 days |
| 20:52.40 | vdv | i can scroll with arrow buttons on keyboard for example |
| 20:53.00 | lcuk | i came from platform with isolo and direct autoscrolling etc |
| 20:53.38 | lcuk | GeneralAntilles, i bet now an autoscroller using *normal* qt libraries will be feasible |
| 20:54.25 | vdv | i just don't understand why scrolling with keyboard arrow buttons work, but with volume buttons not |
| 20:54.35 | GeneralAntilles | lcuk, be nice to have a real native reader. |
| 20:54.38 | vdv | volume buttons just change the page |
| 20:54.53 | lcuk | GeneralAntilles, sure it would |
| 20:55.16 | lcuk | but I get the itch to do book reading only rarely and qt is still difficult to wrangle |
| 20:56.27 | vdv | with touchscreen i get page change too |
| 21:07.26 | vdv | is there any bookreader better than fbreader? |
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| 21:13.18 | mgedmin | vdv, if you find one, tell me! |
| 21:18.35 | MohammadAG | Khertan, is KhtEditor MTF? |
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| 21:24.35 | lcuk | MohammadAG, qml |
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| 22:31.51 | balleyne | How can you tell what license an application in the Maemo repositories is released under? Maemo.org always just says "Free & Open Source license" without specifying which one, and I've seen it claim that falsely too... |
| 22:34.19 | mgedmin | the debian source package has a debian/copyright |
| 22:34.41 | mgedmin | which ends up in /usr/share/doc, I think, and is promptly removed by maemo's docpurge (if I recall the name correctly) |
| 22:35.32 | MohammadAG | afaik Harmattan does that too |
| 22:35.46 | MohammadAG | Hope I'm wrong, otherwise, time for man-db-n950 |
| 22:36.11 | mgedmin | harmattan doesn't! |
| 22:36.21 | mgedmin | I've /usr/share/doc/qmlcompass/copyright on my n950 |
| 22:37.10 | balleyne | mgedmin, MohammadAG: thanks! |
| 22:37.37 | Atarii | anyone here converted user partition to ext3? |
| 22:37.57 | MohammadAG | mgedmin, sure? I remember seeing it somewhere |
| 22:38.26 | MohammadAG | cat /usr/sbin/docpurge |
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| 22:39.29 | mgedmin | MohammadAG, well, I installed the qmlcompass deb from teh interwebs, and I've that file on my n950 |
| 22:39.36 | mgedmin | I do have a /usr/sbin/docpurge |
| 22:40.13 | mgedmin | hmm... I suppose I installed it with dpkg, thus avoiding apt's configuration |
| 22:40.18 | MohammadAG | cat it |
| 22:40.18 | mgedmin | cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99-docpurge |
| 22:40.31 | mgedmin | so I do anything with apt, my /usr/share/doc will disappear? nice |
| 22:40.46 | MohammadAG | just cat it |
| 22:40.54 | MohammadAG | I'm suspecting it keeps docs but not manuals |
| 22:41.42 | mgedmin | nah, it rm -rf's /usr/share/{doc,man,info} |
| 22:42.04 | MohammadAG | so basically same as fremantle? |
| 22:42.06 | mgedmin | and then mkdir's and creates a README in those, proudly saying "Purged by docpurge" |
| 22:42.20 | mgedmin | with the same freemantle'ish "# Real hackers don't read docs." comment |
| 22:42.30 | mgedmin | heh, "Copyright (C) 2006 Nokia Corporation." |
| 22:42.32 | MohammadAG | I hope they removed # Real hackers don't read docs. |
| 22:42.43 | MohammadAG | oh, meh |
| 22:50.51 | javispedro | Real hackers don't use aegis. |
| 22:50.52 | javispedro | Oh crap. |
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| 22:58.00 | casketizer | ytf they put docpurge on a headful device.....just nokia knows |
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| 23:19.50 | Hurrian | it's amazing how linux doesn't immediately free memory |
| 23:20.19 | Hurrian | not exactly a good idea to keep compiled C files in ram |
| 23:20.37 | Hurrian | and oh, anyone saw qtlockscreen? |
| 23:21.22 | MohammadAG | same code as enhanced-lockscreen, just a different UI :P |
| 23:23.07 | Hurrian | nice to see the configurable aspect though |
| 23:24.04 | Hurrian | MAG , how's OMP coming along? |
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| 23:34.02 | cehteh | Hurrian: woot? you know how allocators work? |
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| 23:36.14 | Hurrian | cehteh , hmm, might place the blame on SLOB |
| 23:36.55 | cehteh | you talk about kernel memory or userspace? |
| 23:37.23 | Hurrian | userspace |
| 23:37.27 | Hurrian | brb |
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| 23:50.54 | RiD | This is sad. I just noticed that my N900's earpiece is blown :( |
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| 23:53.04 | SpeedEvil | It can also be the connector to the board |
| 23:56.01 | RiD | the earpiece still works, but gives a terrible sound |
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| 23:58.00 | RiD | time to send it to warranty, I just hope they won't give me a N8 or E7... |
| 23:58.32 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it, they almost certainly will. |
| 23:58.44 | SpeedEvil | you can get replacement bits, in principle. |