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| 00:13.37 | lolcat | "This newsletter contains confidential information and constitutes a valuable benefit provided by Nokia to you as a Forum Nokia Developer member. This newsletter should not be shared with or forwarded to persons who are not employees of your company. The content of this newsletter is subject to the confidentiality terms of the Forum Nokia Developer "Non-Disclosure Agreement" (NDA) signed by member companies. All Forum Nokia Developer members a |
| 00:13.50 | lolcat | Would Nokia send me confidential information if I werent a contractor? |
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| 00:24.55 | MohammadAG | yes, they would |
| 00:31.53 | lolcat | But that proves I am a Nokia contributor? |
| 00:33.27 | MohammadAG | no |
| 00:33.41 | MohammadAG | it proved you don't know NDAs shouldn't be talked about |
| 00:33.55 | lolcat | What is a NDA? |
| 00:34.22 | SpeedEvil | Non Disclosure Alligator. |
| 00:34.32 | SpeedEvil | It's what they sic on you when you tell people about stuff. |
| 00:34.38 | MohammadAG | lolcat, you're either trolling or trolling |
| 00:34.45 | MohammadAG | you pasted what an NDA means |
| 00:34.52 | MohammadAG | how about reading what you paste next time? |
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| 00:37.42 | lolcat | MohammadAG: Well, I couldn't disclose any of the very confidential information they sent me! |
| 00:38.27 | MohammadAG | riight |
| 00:38.38 | MohammadAG | that's why you asked what an NDA is |
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| 00:38.48 | MohammadAG | lolcat, are you attending MeeGoConf? |
| 00:39.23 | lolcat | MohammadAG: It is in the US, it is a bit out of my way, I could buy a lot of N900'eds for the price of the airfaire |
| 00:42.50 | lolcat | MohammadAG: I wish it could be in dublin like last year |
| 00:44.58 | DocScrutinizer51 | not again!!! |
| 00:45.33 | lolcat | DocScrutinizer51: huh? |
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| 00:46.22 | DocScrutinizer51 | btw correct wording is "what's PNG" |
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| 00:53.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | lolcat: the whole cloak theme is definitely off topic from now on, in this chan (and) for you |
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| 00:59.05 | xd13 | i've looked at meego conference schedule n all, when do guys think will be the unveiling of the new meego phone ? |
| 01:00.04 | SpeedEvil | I think it's unlikely to happen. |
| 01:00.20 | SpeedEvil | No Nokia speaker there. |
| 01:00.38 | xd13 | :(.........still love my n900 and get to save the $$$ |
| 01:03.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | I also think if there'd be anything *really* big to reveal then the6'd do this at beginning, to set an exited basic mood for whole conf |
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| 01:05.18 | DocScrutinizer51 | so the only big thing at meegoconf prolly is the big hoax about sth BIG to happen there |
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| 01:21.15 | SpeedEvil | Who was mentioning bitcoins? http://idle.slashdot.org/story/11/05/24/1257229/Increased-Power-Usage-Leads-to-Mistaken-Pot-Busts-for-Bitcoin-Miners |
| 01:22.33 | lolcat | I metion bitcoins once in a while |
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| 01:28.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | lolcat: are you Chinese, by any chance? |
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| 01:34.13 | lolcat | DocScrutinizer51: I am afraid not |
| 01:35.31 | lolcat | DocScrutinizer51: why? |
| 01:35.51 | DocScrutinizer51 | just a weird thoughrt |
| 01:36.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | nm |
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| 01:43.07 | lolcat | Weird |
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| 02:18.54 | SpeedEvil | Is there a way to explicitly trigger maps to download an area? |
| 02:23.57 | SpeedEvil | Ah. /me finds Jaffas page. Thanks! |
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| 02:41.13 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/wt/rescue.html |
| 02:41.43 | DocScrutinizer | not exactly your hoverboard |
| 02:46.23 | SpeedEvil | Eventually it is believed that the EAGLE aerial rescue platform could be mass-produced for about $ 500,000 per copy. |
| 02:46.36 | SpeedEvil | Moller SkyCar anyone? |
| 02:47.11 | SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_M400_Skycar |
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| 04:44.46 | Zaakmmm | ss |
| 04:45.06 | Zaakmmm | Should i enable hardware acceleration hildon desktop? |
| 04:45.25 | Zaakmmm | Hwsync? |
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| 05:32.14 | itschue | hello |
| 05:35.02 | itschue | can someone help me my after flashing my n900 reboots itself bootreason is sw_rst |
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| 05:38.23 | slonopotamus | sw_rst means "maemo pretends it is smarter than you and decides itself it is time to reboot" |
| 05:40.35 | itschue | what can i do? |
| 05:42.41 | kerio | reflash? |
| 05:42.53 | kerio | can you get to NOLO? |
| 05:43.13 | kerio | oh, and if you're in a bootloop, remove the battery now |
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| 05:43.40 | kerio | otherwise it'll drain your battery and you'll have to find another way to charge it before reflashing |
| 05:43.48 | itschue | i flashed it 3 times and this comes every time |
| 05:43.53 | kerio | hm |
| 05:44.00 | kerio | what are you flashing? |
| 05:44.09 | kerio | COMBINED and/or VANILLA? |
| 05:44.13 | kerio | i'd flash both |
| 05:44.35 | kerio | make sure you don't reboot the phone (the -R flag) between the two |
| 05:45.15 | itschue | i flashed without -R both vanilla and combined after after that i removed battery t and wait and this didnt help |
| 05:46.35 | itschue | what is NOLO |
| 05:46.55 | RST38h | Google? |
| 05:47.54 | itschue | ok nokia bootloader |
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| 05:49.34 | kerio | i'm stumped then :( |
| 05:49.48 | itschue | kerio how can i get to nolo |
| 05:49.56 | kerio | ideally reflashing both should bring the n900 to a pristine state |
| 05:50.04 | kerio | itschue: are you in a bootloop? |
| 05:50.18 | kerio | or can you reflash? |
| 05:50.40 | kerio | are you sure you have the right files for the flashing? |
| 05:50.50 | itschue | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:51.39 | itschue | i typed in my imei for file download |
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| 05:55.56 | itschue | kerio? |
| 05:56.24 | kerio | itschue: can you get the computer to recognize your n900 in flashing mode? |
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| 05:58.39 | itschue | im on work im only with my n900 online |
| 05:59.11 | itschue | an have no computer here |
| 06:01.53 | itschue | im at aprox. 6 pm @home then i will check the .bin files |
| 06:02.29 | itschue | after 1 flashing this error happens very often |
| 06:04.18 | itschue | then i flashed both and wait a long time befor rebooting and then shutdown and remove battery and wait turn on wait long time so i restart from yesterday 8pm only one time in night |
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| 06:06.02 | itschue | kerio |
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| 06:13.23 | itschue | someone active ? |
| 06:15.37 | strohhalm | some awake |
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| 06:17.17 | itschue | strohhalm german? |
| 06:17.30 | strohhalm | a bit |
| 06:17.37 | strohhalm | but only idling here |
| 06:17.54 | itschue | ok you cant help me or? |
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| 06:18.48 | strohhalm | no, but need to flash my device soon, too :) |
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| 06:19.44 | itschue | and why ? |
| 06:20.17 | strohhalm | cause the cam doesn't work anymore |
| 06:21.46 | itschue | and you know why |
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| 06:23.09 | strohhalm | not that sure, but i changed to these powerkernel and tried some other -extra/devel stuff |
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| 06:44.05 | Macer | word |
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| 06:45.19 | Macer | hello |
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| 06:48.37 | Macer | hm. i never even tried but does maemo support nfs? |
| 06:48.58 | Macer | doing it remotely would probably require something seriously out there huh? or some sort of battery sucking thing |
| 06:49.01 | psycho_oreos | not ootb but there's probably addons you can get for it |
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| 06:51.59 | psycho_oreos | actually not quite, its not nfs, its cifs |
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| 06:54.20 | Macer | cifs? |
| 06:54.22 | Macer | heh |
| 06:54.29 | Macer | that sounds even worse than nfs |
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| 06:54.33 | Macer | but i guess using it remotely would be easier |
| 06:54.44 | Macer | since i'm assuming smb has some sort of encryption |
| 06:54.55 | Macer | at the very least user/pw encryption |
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| 06:56.27 | Macer | this rubber cover i got for my n900 totally sucks |
| 06:56.36 | Macer | the screen protector is good tho |
| 06:56.51 | psycho_oreos | generic brand? |
| 06:57.01 | Macer | i got 3 of them pretty cheap.. $11 for 3 covers and the flimsy made in china rubber cover |
| 06:57.04 | Macer | yeah |
| 06:57.08 | psycho_oreos | lol |
| 06:57.26 | Macer | i guess it works better than nothing does |
| 06:57.59 | Macer | after how awesome i have gotten this n900 i am considering getting another newer one |
| 06:58.12 | Macer | maybe try to rsync them heh |
| 06:58.25 | Macer | one for day to day and one to wear a suit with |
| 06:58.25 | psycho_oreos | I've got otterbox for one of mine, makes it look fatter but despite N900 being dropped a few times it never really suffered anything serious |
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| 06:59.03 | Macer | mine is pretty good too other than a few minor sliding into the pocket scratches on the screen |
| 06:59.19 | Macer | you would have to really look for them tho |
| 06:59.27 | Macer | but i still want a good as new one :) |
| 07:00.04 | Macer | but this rubber cover.. it isnt TOO bad.. but i expected a tighter fit |
| 07:00.13 | Macer | i mean.. it is latex rubber |
| 07:00.20 | psycho_oreos | it'll be hard to find new ones these days unless you go to shops and hope they still have them |
| 07:00.34 | mece | Macer, they're cheap too :) |
| 07:00.51 | Macer | psycho_oreos: amazon has them |
| 07:00.57 | Macer | im pretty sure dell too |
| 07:01.06 | psycho_oreos | o.O |
| 07:01.12 | Macer | i got mine from dell ;) |
| 07:01.40 | Macer | which was actually kind of a surprise |
| 07:02.01 | Macer | i could possibly find the parts but i would be a little nervous about that |
| 07:02.31 | Macer | busting my n900 open to lose like... the camera lens or something even more oddball |
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| 07:14.19 | psycho_oreos | any of you guys messed with osso-backup? as in editing the stuff in zip files (backing up without password), repacking it and then getting osso-backup to set it up according to one's modified preferences? |
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| 07:15.55 | robbiethe1st | No, I've found no reason to modify a backup: I just modify the original file |
| 07:16.07 | robbiethe1st | and if things break, that's what backupmenu's for |
| 07:17.03 | strohhalm | you are sure, that you edit the backup and try to restore, iterative until it works? ;) |
| 07:17.12 | strohhalm | *dont |
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| 07:18.21 | zakkkkm | should i enable hwsync for hildon-desktop ? |
| 07:19.27 | psycho_oreos | its the settings that I got osso-backup to backup. I haven't yet installed backupmenu (hence I'm trying to setup a backup clone in case something seriously gets messed up on my main one). The settings if I were to restore that onto my other N900 the Display configurations under Settings automatically freezes Settings app |
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| 07:20.22 | psycho_oreos | strohhalm, that didn't quite make much sense :) |
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| 07:20.51 | strohhalm | ;) |
| 07:20.57 | strohhalm | must leave, xy |
| 07:20.58 | strohhalm | cya |
| 07:21.00 | psycho_oreos | I guess I'm pretty much on my own now, going to delete some %gconf.xml files and replace them with null length files |
| 07:21.03 | psycho_oreos | bye |
| 07:22.29 | strohhalm | good luck |
| 07:23.01 | psycho_oreos | hmm I guess replacing them with null length files shouldn't hurt, I can see some %gconf.xml files with zero length |
| 07:23.59 | psycho_oreos | thanks :þ |
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| 07:33.39 | itschue | kerio |
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| 07:37.34 | itschue | hello docscrutinizer |
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| 10:09.11 | itschue | hello kerio |
| 10:11.42 | itschue | helloocscrutinizer |
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| 10:13.28 | lolcat | hello itschue |
| 10:14.08 | itschue | ello |
| 10:14.28 | lolcat | itschue: Ant news on the N9? |
| 10:15.20 | itschue | ant? |
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| 10:16.48 | psycho_oreos | typo :þ |
| 10:17.01 | itschue | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:17.02 | lolcat | any* |
| 10:17.13 | lolcat | itschue: What is it? Broken usb port? |
| 10:17.16 | itschue | ok |
| 10:19.04 | itschue | nodevice is rebooting by itself and battery is draining after flashing vanilla and combined both flashed without -R and waiting long time after every step |
| 10:19.21 | *** part/#maemo Wizzup (~puzziw@old.villavu.com) |
| 10:21.18 | psycho_oreos | probably try it the other way round |
| 10:21.29 | psycho_oreos | first fiasco then vanilla |
| 10:21.45 | *** part/#maemo drj_cro (~drj@outnat.abanka.hr) |
| 10:22.14 | itschue | and this is safe because the nokia page says others |
| 10:22.40 | *** part/#maemo andrenarchy (~andrenarc@stifel.math.tu-berlin.de) |
| 10:23.50 | merlin1991 | Psycho_oreos both ways should work as long as you don't reboot inbetween |
| 10:24.21 | itschue | merlin no different between both ways? |
| 10:24.24 | psycho_oreos | merlin1991, apparently not in itschue's case :) maybe just reflash the fiasco and reboot, that might work |
| 10:26.16 | itschue | psycho_oreos flash fiasco then no reboot and then vanilla or reboot after both steps? |
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| 10:26.53 | merlin1991 | Afaik it's vanilla no reboot |
| 10:26.59 | merlin1991 | fiasco reboot |
| 10:27.20 | merlin1991 | ~flashing |
| 10:27.21 | infobot | hmm... flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware |
| 10:27.33 | psycho_oreos | itschue, just flash the fiasco and reboot |
| 10:28.16 | itschue | ok i try this when iam at home |
| 10:29.08 | merlin1991 | itschue: also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware#Flashing_the_eMMC_in_the_N900 |
| 10:34.09 | itschue | the first link says after flashing vanilla i need to flash combined |
| 10:35.19 | itschue | i flashed vanilla and combined and used the first link |
| 10:35.41 | itschue | ut i have still the problem |
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| 10:37.12 | itschue | im back later break is over and have to work now |
| 10:37.59 | lardman | can anyone remember that Nokia Beta labs link for an app which acts like an ad-hoc IM and presence announcer over wifi and bluetooth? |
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| 10:38.27 | lardman | iirc the video was of some people sat in a sports cafe, all very cheesy, but the idea would be cool for conferences I think |
| 10:39.23 | MohammadAG | lardman, you attending meegoconf? |
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| 10:41.02 | lardman | MohammadAG: nope |
| 10:41.18 | lardman | otherwise I'd certainly not be up at this time of the morning ;) |
| 10:41.37 | lardman | I was just thinking about disruptive technologies |
| 10:42.00 | MohammadAG | lardman, I did make a Bluetooth Messenger app with Qt Mobility |
| 10:42.13 | MohammadAG | it turned out well |
| 10:42.17 | lardman | cool |
| 10:42.21 | MohammadAG | works on Linux/Symbian |
| 10:42.31 | MohammadAG | but never released it, it was a school project |
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| 10:46.16 | lardman | sounds like a cool basis |
| 10:46.33 | lardman | I was thinking of being able to wander around a conf with device saying who you are and what your interests are |
| 10:46.44 | lardman | probably useless, but cool imho :) |
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| 11:07.10 | chem|st | morninf |
| 11:07.20 | merlin1991 | Morning chem|st |
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| 11:09.22 | Venemo | good morning guys |
| 11:09.40 | lardman | morning chaps |
| 11:09.46 | merlin1991 | Sf people waking up? :D |
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| 11:12.43 | MohammadAG | wonders if there's a vBulletin API |
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| 11:46.08 | markinfo | is there something more powerfull then nokia n900? |
| 11:46.24 | merlin1991 | Chuck norris |
| 11:46.35 | psycho_oreos | plenty others but none will run maemo OS |
| 11:46.38 | strohhalm | yea, my notebook |
| 11:47.34 | markinfo | nokia n900 is already 3years old machine - that is not normal to have nothing. Is Nokia still alive? |
| 11:48.11 | psycho_oreos | does Nokia sound dead to you? |
| 11:48.19 | robbiethe1st | Now that MS has it, yes... |
| 11:48.47 | psycho_oreos | there's ongoing rumours of n9 coming out however, who knows if it'll ever come out |
| 11:48.51 | SpeedEvil | It's pining for the fjoords. |
| 11:48.51 | robbiethe1st | Well, thing is that there are faster bits of hardware out there... But the software doesn't do as well |
| 11:48.59 | robbiethe1st | N950 //will// be coming out. |
| 11:49.16 | robbiethe1st | That's confirmed: FCC even has approved it |
| 11:49.22 | SpeedEvil | Err - no, it's not. |
| 11:49.32 | SpeedEvil | A prototype has been approved by the FCC |
| 11:49.36 | robbiethe1st | maby not n950 or n9 as the /name/, but some device will |
| 11:49.37 | markinfo | Memo seems quite enough good to be. But hardware is slow. |
| 11:49.41 | SpeedEvil | This does not mean it will go into production. |
| 11:49.41 | markinfo | Maemo |
| 11:49.45 | SpeedEvil | Or what OS it will run. |
| 11:49.53 | xkr47 | do they still sell n900 in finland somewhere? |
| 11:49.56 | psycho_oreos | I thought that was N9 not N950, the stuff on tmo |
| 11:50.01 | cehteh | even when it goes into poduction its a dead horse :P |
| 11:50.07 | robbiethe1st | Who knows what it's called |
| 11:50.18 | robbiethe1st | If things are too slow... tweak it or OC |
| 11:50.26 | cehteh | nokias future is wp7 ... mine is somewhere else |
| 11:50.29 | strohhalm | is it not possible to port maemo to some powerfull android device? |
| 11:50.29 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: Even if it's dead - that's another 2 or so years for someone to pop up with a 'proper' meego phone. |
| 11:50.37 | SpeedEvil | strohhalm: No. |
| 11:50.42 | strohhalm | why not? |
| 11:50.49 | cehteh | SpeedEvil: i hope my n900 will last 2 years more :) |
| 11:50.53 | SpeedEvil | Maemo comprises closed elements in a tangled mess - in conjunction with the open eleemnts. |
| 11:51.06 | SpeedEvil | You cannot use the open bits without the closed bits. |
| 11:51.53 | markinfo | hm - are there some serious reasons to have "closed elements"? |
| 11:52.04 | strohhalm | okay |
| 11:52.06 | robbiethe1st | SpeedEvil: How much of the main UI(Theme bits, desktop, statusbar etc) are closed? |
| 11:52.20 | dangergrrl | because that's what nokia gave us |
| 11:52.20 | cehteh | some people think they are serious |
| 11:52.22 | robbiethe1st | Like, what could be dropped on top of a Debian system? |
| 11:52.24 | strohhalm | nda, patents, closed firmware i think markinfo ;) |
| 11:52.57 | SpeedEvil | markinfo: The closed elements were chosen and designed to make it hard for another phone maker to use the open elements that they connect to. |
| 11:53.07 | SpeedEvil | This seems to be the only real design rationale. |
| 11:53.07 | cehteh | the whole GSM (and above) is all well founded on security by obsurity |
| 11:53.18 | *** join/#maemo dos1 (~dos@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 11:53.31 | cehteh | when people start hacking on that then the infrastructure will scatter in pieces |
| 11:53.34 | markinfo | this is the same situatiation as with WIfi cards? there is binary firmware over that is "open sourced" communication possible. |
| 11:56.51 | strohhalm | i wonder when the industry get the fact, that inventing working foo is better than crappy foo |
| 11:57.17 | *** join/#maemo billmania (~bill@38.98.130.98) |
| 11:57.18 | SpeedEvil | markinfo: No. |
| 11:57.50 | SpeedEvil | markinfo: In many markets, it's actually illegal to - or at the least won't get approval - if you have an opensource GSM stack that the user can edit. |
| 11:57.55 | strohhalm | RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2 <-- this is ne latest release? |
| 11:57.57 | SpeedEvil | actually illegal to sell |
| 11:58.46 | SpeedEvil | markinfo: Fundamentally, radio is a shared resource. GSM and other cellphone protocols work because the tower control everything. |
| 11:59.28 | SpeedEvil | markinfo: Two users deciding to use their cell-radios to directly talk to each other and not use up any of their data allowances can wipe out calls on that channel for tens of kilometers. |
| 12:00.05 | *** join/#maemo GNUton-BNC (~gnuton@84-231-109-204.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 12:01.20 | markinfo | hm - open Source GSM, it looks danger ... but that problem is very similar to the WIFI cards - or not? |
| 12:01.25 | cehteh | kindof design flaw |
| 12:01.33 | SpeedEvil | It's not a design flaw. |
| 12:01.46 | SpeedEvil | It's a fundamental issue. Radio is a shared resource. |
| 12:02.17 | SpeedEvil | Cellphones work specifically because the cell network is engineered so that there are never two devices transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. |
| 12:03.08 | cehteh | thinking flaw then even |
| 12:03.16 | SpeedEvil | Wifi - pretty much - works with shared channels, as it accepts that sometimes it's just not going to work, and that nearby devices on the same frequency will wipe out the channel. |
| 12:03.48 | cehteh | i cant operate a radio transmitter on commercial bands without infriging the law .. so is hacking the gsm transmitter too |
| 12:04.23 | cehteh | or when i code a virus which hacks some machines (and use it) then its against the law |
| 12:04.56 | cehteh | you cant just prevent that by telling "virus coding cant be open source" the bad guys will always try |
| 12:04.57 | SpeedEvil | But with GSM and other cell-devices - the approval has as a condition of use that it can't be used to do that. |
| 12:05.08 | SpeedEvil | The problem isn't so much one-offs. |
| 12:05.32 | RST38h | yawns, eats a kitten |
| 12:05.39 | RST38h | Soo, news? |
| 12:05.43 | SpeedEvil | The problem is a 'free data' app popping up on a popular handset that completely wipes out the network in the area. |
| 12:06.03 | cehteh | which is illegal to use |
| 12:06.14 | SpeedEvil | P2P is illegal to use too. |
| 12:06.22 | cehteh | p2p is not illegal |
| 12:06.37 | cehteh | what you do with it might be illegal |
| 12:06.37 | SpeedEvil | Ok - P2P is illegal to use to infringe copyright. |
| 12:07.07 | SpeedEvil | But the above issue arises with 12 year-olds - for example - using the above app. |
| 12:07.23 | Veggen | SpeedEvil: And so is word, email, web, etc. |
| 12:07.35 | Veggen | SpeedEvil: there's nothing different with php. |
| 12:07.40 | Veggen | eh, P2P. |
| 12:07.53 | SpeedEvil | Veggen: The point is the illegality doesn't stop people doing it. |
| 12:08.01 | Veggen | no, that's true. |
| 12:08.09 | SpeedEvil | Hence the fact that locking down the cell-radio has some point. |
| 12:08.33 | cehteh | thats what i meant with design flaw .. technically each device should authenticate properly with each other and the network .. if not its like operating a pirate radio transmitter, when you do and get catched then you get sued and have to pay high fines |
| 12:08.49 | cehteh | there is no need to obscure this by closing the souce |
| 12:08.51 | Veggen | SpeedEvil: there'll *always* be people infringing copright. That has never been the problem, the problem is that the media business has stopped delivering services that people are willing to buy once they actually get money to do so. |
| 12:09.04 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: The source - the GSM protocol - is quite open. |
| 12:09.23 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: It's only the implementations that are locked down. |
| 12:09.24 | cehteh | if something is decided to be illegal by our society it just is .. |
| 12:09.46 | cehteh | yes i think there is no much point in doing so |
| 12:09.53 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: If you have an open-source GSM modem, you can 'file off' the serial numbers. |
| 12:10.20 | cehteh | yes ... and? |
| 12:10.46 | cehteh | if i steal a car i can grind out the serials too .. does that make it better or legal or acceptable? |
| 12:11.11 | SpeedEvil | The fundamental problem is that radio is a shared resource - anyone transmitting on an unauthorised channel on a GSM networks allocation will knock off up to 16 calls. Some of which may be emergency calls. |
| 12:11.18 | *** join/#maemo lxp (~lxp@212-183-127-100.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 12:12.05 | cehteh | stolen cars run by drunken / drugged shitheads also share the same street and overrun people |
| 12:12.06 | *** join/#maemo polymar (~polymar@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com) |
| 12:12.15 | SpeedEvil | Sure - it's not. The issue is that your average teenager - who is infringing on copyright over P2P is not likely to see a major difference between doing that, and running a 'free data transfer to your friends' app. |
| 12:12.53 | cehteh | yes but thats not a technical problem you can engage with a technical solution (locking the code down) .. its about education and responsibility |
| 12:13.06 | SpeedEvil | Good luck with that. |
| 12:13.17 | lardman | no, that is something you can stop by locking down the hw |
| 12:13.28 | SpeedEvil | I look forward to hearing how you're going to educate everyone to follow the law. |
| 12:13.43 | lardman | chances are that a teenager bright enough to develop their own, won't be a teenager anymore by the time it's ready to go |
| 12:13.46 | cehteh | eventually someone will release (if not already happend) a free/open/hacked GSM stack on the black market |
| 12:14.05 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: That's not the issue. |
| 12:14.08 | lardman | that will require hacked hw too though |
| 12:14.14 | lardman | which will be expensive |
| 12:14.15 | *** join/#maemo rd (~rd@p57B48FC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:14.41 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: The issue is hardware - widely available - being able to be used in ways that will incidentally jam other users in a many kilometer radius. |
| 12:14.57 | SpeedEvil | And with incentives for people to use it that way (free data). |
| 12:14.58 | cehteh | i bet some day they find a way around .. and some day later it will apear on some server just for download for the kids |
| 12:15.32 | SpeedEvil | Hence the locking down of the hardware. There isn't another way round this. Radio is by nature a broadcast and shared medium. |
| 12:15.52 | lardman | the point of the separation is so that can't happen cehteh, so no amount of sw can alter that |
| 12:16.11 | cehteh | haha .. they saied that about blueray too :P |
| 12:16.16 | *** join/#maemo the_lord (~david@190.114.240.2) |
| 12:16.38 | lardman | yes, though that is slightly different |
| 12:16.40 | SpeedEvil | Without rigid control, your cellphone range drops from 15km to 3km, and then only sometimes, and the battery usage goes up 100* |
| 12:16.50 | lardman | but yes, perhaps there is a weakness somewhere, who knows |
| 12:16.54 | dangergrrl | i ran the unlock for the fm transmitter in my n900 and the world did not end and the fcc has not showed up at my door |
| 12:17.08 | lardman | dangergrrl: short range |
| 12:17.18 | SpeedEvil | dangergrrl: Sure - the FM transmitter is still operating at a really tiny power though. |
| 12:17.27 | lardman | and no-one dies because they can't listen to Radio 1 |
| 12:17.29 | dangergrrl | and someone told me not long ago that they heard something about a full gsm stack in open source |
| 12:17.38 | cehteh | yes |
| 12:17.52 | lardman | But you still need the hw to run it on |
| 12:18.08 | SpeedEvil | dangergrrl: If you are 2km from a cell-tower, and transmit to your friend without negotiating with that cell-tower, you will knock everyone else further than 1km or so on the same channel off the network. |
| 12:18.11 | lardman | and I bet your average teenager's pocket money won't stretch to that |
| 12:18.17 | SpeedEvil | dangergrrl: Including some emergency calls. |
| 12:18.23 | dangergrrl | now i haven't been teranmsmitting outside the approved fm range, i don't have a receiver for that :P |
| 12:18.24 | *** join/#maemo lcukn900 (~lcuk@82.132.139.219) |
| 12:18.36 | SpeedEvil | dangergrrl: GSM -opensource - hardware exists. |
| 12:18.51 | SpeedEvil | It's expensive - though it will get cheaper. It will never be mass market though. |
| 12:19.00 | mikkov | open source gsm bts http://openbts.sourceforge.net/ |
| 12:19.10 | SpeedEvil | yeah - that. |
| 12:19.27 | SpeedEvil | Also - there is a cracked phone, being used for openhandset |
| 12:20.30 | strohhalm | i think the problem is not the closed gsm stack, nokia shows that it is possible to provide a free userland with closed parts e.g. for radio, grafic. but why nobody build such stuff with --usable --customizable |
| 12:20.47 | dangergrrl | i suppose if i had a friend who lived next door |
| 12:21.13 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - there is no reason why the user cares about an open-source GSM stack. |
| 12:21.25 | SpeedEvil | If the stack is done right, it exposes everything the user might care about. |
| 12:21.29 | dangergrrl | *and* i could transmit bulk data without being charged by my cell provider |
| 12:21.53 | kerio | if you had a friend who lived next door you'd push a cat6 cable through a wall |
| 12:22.01 | strohhalm | i would be happy with a closed gsm stack, too. if i get a device (system) like the n900 |
| 12:22.04 | SpeedEvil | (where GSM = all cellphones) |
| 12:22.06 | kerio | because fuck radio, 10GigE is the shit |
| 12:22.23 | dangergrrl | lo9l |
| 12:22.27 | dangergrrl | indeed |
| 12:22.51 | lardman | votes for fibre, Gigabits are old school |
| 12:22.58 | strohhalm | but 2km cat6 is a bit expensive x) |
| 12:22.59 | dangergrrl | so the idea of a teenager breaking the whole GSM network just for fun is a straw man |
| 12:23.42 | SpeedEvil | It's incidental. |
| 12:23.49 | dangergrrl | besides they had a fake gsm cell demo at DEFCON last year |
| 12:23.55 | SpeedEvil | It's not something you care about - you just want free data. |
| 12:24.11 | dangergrrl | GSM is trivial to break in some fun ways |
| 12:25.10 | dangergrrl | a fake GSM cell can just tell your phone: naah, i don't like encryption, don't use it |
| 12:25.27 | dangergrrl | and no phone will warn the user it's dropped encryption |
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| 12:27.42 | dangergrrl | i don't buy any of the justifications for closed drivers or NDA hardware as valid |
| 12:27.45 | SpeedEvil | I think it's possible to also get the SIM secrets by the network requesting a weak encryption, and then cracking that. |
| 12:28.05 | kerio | who the hell thought that security through obscurity was a good idea? :| |
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| 12:28.30 | SpeedEvil | The fundamental reason for a phone maker is that in many markets, it's actuively illegal to sell an open -GSM phone. In most others you will not get approval. |
| 12:28.32 | dangergrrl | it's BS for GPUs and it's BC for GSM stacks too |
| 12:28.46 | dangergrrl | BS even |
| 12:28.50 | SpeedEvil | It's _not_ security through obscurity. The GSM protocol has been published forever. |
| 12:29.18 | dangergrrl | ati and nvidia still reverse engineer each other's stuff and their closed drivers only inconvenience some users |
| 12:30.18 | dangergrrl | and do phone makers use faraday cages when testing new proto stacks? |
| 12:30.48 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 12:31.01 | SpeedEvil | And their own network emulators. |
| 12:31.11 | dangergrrl | i mean sure not everybody lives next to a htc r&d facility |
| 12:31.17 | SpeedEvil | If for no other reason than you can't control the real-world. |
| 12:31.44 | RST38h | moo all |
| 12:32.04 | lardman | hey RST38h |
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| 12:32.35 | dangergrrl | if someone wants to break something they will |
| 12:34.24 | lardman | so you make it as hard as possible for them to do too much damage |
| 12:35.18 | dangergrrl | i worked in a group at IBM that was doing small quantity manufacturing or prototype servers, we had to send each one across the street to the anechoic chamber for fcc certification before shipping it |
| 12:35.31 | dangergrrl | but we were using it in the lab before it passed |
| 12:35.41 | RST38h | lardman: heya |
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| 12:36.18 | dangergrrl | and they always came back with the data cables passed through toroids etc |
| 12:36.33 | lardman | RST38h: no jokes today about N9/50s, promise! :) |
| 12:40.07 | RST38h | lardman: Android FTW! |
| 12:40.14 | RST38h | hides, just in case there is a riot |
| 12:41.10 | lardman | RST38h: hw-wise certainly |
| 12:41.32 | lardman | Tab has just had an updated kernel source code drop, so Linux for the win! |
| 12:41.38 | dangergrrl | i think the real reason people want to give us closed toys |
| 12:42.23 | dangergrrl | is because they are autocratic control freaks and should be the first against the wall when the revolution comes |
| 12:42.41 | rjeo | haha |
| 12:43.04 | lardman | hmm |
| 12:43.20 | lardman | cheaper and probably faster to not develop in the open |
| 12:43.37 | c2pLaY | dangergrrl: i like the way you think |
| 12:43.57 | dangergrrl | hey we had autocratic control freaks in charge of gcc development for a long time |
| 12:44.02 | dangergrrl | gcc forked over it |
| 12:44.43 | kerio | and LLVM apparently kicks much more ass than gcc |
| 12:44.59 | Macer | ugh |
| 12:45.10 | Macer | wtf. my calendar isnt syncing up |
| 12:45.13 | dangergrrl | egcs had open development gcc was closed |
| 12:45.40 | dangergrrl | iirc they remerged and the egcs faction "won" |
| 12:46.31 | dangergrrl | some people just like to control others |
| 12:46.56 | lardman | tbh sometimes you need someone to try herding the cats |
| 12:47.07 | lardman | I don't know about the gcc case mind you |
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| 12:47.32 | dangergrrl | you ever tried to get cats to do what you want? |
| 12:48.18 | dangergrrl | unless it coincides with what the cat wants, good luck |
| 12:48.40 | lardman | quite, encouragement and guidance |
| 12:48.52 | lardman | but we're only talking about metaphorical cats |
| 12:50.29 | dangergrrl | sadly the us is likely to have only one GSM provider soon |
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| 12:53.38 | lardman | bbiab meeting |
| 12:53.49 | dangergrrl | unless the fcc commissioners decide to actually regulate something like they get paid to do |
| 12:58.54 | dangergrrl | i was in the middle of the gcc thing in the 1990s |
| 12:59.17 | dangergrrl | i made the decision to ship a gcc snapshot as part of a commercial release |
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| 13:07.26 | RST38h | omg nokia releases golden symbian phone! |
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| 13:23.48 | kerio | ZOMG |
| 13:25.43 | lcuk | RST38h, is that the first time? |
| 13:25.47 | lcuk | recalls seeing similar |
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| 13:28.29 | Gyjf | anyone know where i can get curl for the n900? do i have to compile from source? |
| 13:28.40 | SpeedEvil | It's in one of the repos |
| 13:29.03 | Gyjf | apt-get wont find it |
| 13:29.05 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 13:29.09 | SpeedEvil | Maybe tools? |
| 13:29.21 | SpeedEvil | Would wget work for you? |
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| 13:30.38 | Gyjf | i have wget, id like curl tho |
| 13:31.00 | Gyjf | for compatibility reasons and i dont want to rewrite some scripts |
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| 13:36.46 | SpeedEvil | http://curl.haxx.se/download.html ?> |
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| 13:37.37 | SpeedEvil | http://brnz.org/hbr/?tag=maemo |
| 13:39.10 | lcuk | http://maemo.org/packages/view/libcurl3/ |
| 13:39.24 | SpeedEvil | doesn't have the binary |
| 13:39.30 | lcuk | Gyjf, SDK repository and was included in SSU PR1.2 on device |
| 13:40.01 | lcuk | well, included from PR1.0 |
| 13:40.04 | vldcnst | Gyjf: tl;dr; http://brnz.org/f/maemo5/curl_7.18.2-8maemo6+0m5_armel.deb |
| 13:41.41 | Gyjf | thank you vldcnst |
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| 13:43.29 | vldcnst | thank you SpeedEvil |
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| 14:32.10 | DocScrutinizer | ( <dangergrrl> and no phone will warn the user it's dropped encryption ) Old Siemens C25 did |
| 14:32.27 | RST38h | And where is Siemens now? |
| 14:32.29 | RST38h | cackles |
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| 14:36.12 | dangergrrl | nice feature, i stand corrected |
| 14:36.28 | dangergrrl | almost all phones do not |
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| 14:37.19 | DocScrutinizer | dangergrrl: I've been in charge for the GSM modem of Openmoko. Not even we, the EE at OM, had full source of the GSM stack of the calypso modem |
| 14:39.57 | DocScrutinizer | dangergrrl: scenario: N900 comes with FOSS GSM stack, some dude is patching it to fix the "doesn't reregister after long time in bunker" issue, seems to work, everybody is installing it. 3 Months later the newspapers come up with "Mysterious GSM failures that tore down half of USA got spotted - some 'fix' in a Nokia phones SW caused timing issues in the celltowers" |
| 14:40.26 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: hoi |
| 14:40.38 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: is killing bme dsmetool? |
| 14:40.52 | DocScrutinizer | rephrase plea |
| 14:40.54 | DocScrutinizer | se |
| 14:41.24 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: I was to kill bme for having the device die when the bat is realy empty |
| 14:41.37 | chem|st | and there is no init.d |
| 14:41.47 | DocScrutinizer | ok, just do "stop bme" |
| 14:41.48 | chem|st | but dsme does not do the trick either |
| 14:42.09 | chem|st | ah ok |
| 14:44.21 | chem|st | had it to die yesterday and start from (bme death) dead -> charged while off -> running till dead without bme + logging bq27* output |
| 14:44.33 | chem|st | any further advice? |
| 14:44.47 | *** join/#maemo FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) |
| 14:47.37 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: not really, just maybe do an occasional *full* bq27200.sh printout, as the loop mode printout is somewhat missing a few bits |
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| 14:52.26 | chem|st | how do I loop in bash scripts? |
| 14:53.10 | chem|st | or can I write to the file while I have $process >> $file |
| 14:53.36 | lardman | is liblocation open source? |
| 14:53.42 | ShadowJK | What are you trying to do? |
| 14:53.42 | chem|st | to be precise timed loop is the question... |
| 14:53.57 | ShadowJK | (wthat was to chem|st) |
| 14:54.03 | javispedro | lardman: nope, but the library is a not much complex d-bus wrapper |
| 14:54.09 | *** join/#maemo Lantizia (~Lantizia@erebus.seaquake.net) |
| 14:54.10 | javispedro | interesting parts not on it |
| 14:54.23 | Lantizia | Lo does anyone use the Ovi Maps extended stuff (voice navigation addon?) |
| 14:54.23 | lardman | and the interesting parts are also closed presumably? |
| 14:54.35 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: bq27200.sh 5 >log.txt |
| 14:54.41 | lardman | javispedro: just wondering about offline cell id location lookups |
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| 14:54.50 | chem|st | run bq27xx.sh 60 >> bqtest.txt and add a bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt every 10mins |
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| 14:55.29 | javispedro | lardman: that would be in the server. either way, does it do that, or you mean you're trying to add that feature? |
| 14:55.31 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: ah build in? |
| 14:55.51 | DocScrutinizer | while true; do bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt; sleep 600; done |
| 14:56.04 | lardman | javispedro: I don't think it does that, it would be a useful feature to have and therefore if added would be best as an extension to liblocation imo |
| 14:56.19 | ShadowJK | chem|st, let's back up, why do you want to kill bme and run bq27200.sh in a loop? |
| 14:56.22 | lardman | i.e. using a local database of cell id lat/lon positions |
| 14:56.23 | javispedro | lardman: yep, probably doable. |
| 14:56.41 | DocScrutinizer | even more special: while sleep 600; do bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt; done |
| 14:56.53 | ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, btw I think it's mostly eeprom data that's missing from the one-line output |
| 14:57.02 | javispedro | (database of cell id->lat/lon positions= the cause of the recent android/iphone privacy senseless panics) |
| 14:57.07 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: flags |
| 14:57.10 | lardman | I wonder, is there an open database of wifi router ids + lat/lon? |
| 14:57.50 | ShadowJK | Yeah the flags and cycle counts that only update once per cycle |
| 14:58.25 | DocScrutinizer | cycle count is largely boring for loop, flags like CI et all are not |
| 14:58.41 | ShadowJK | javispedro, google maps on j2me used to collect this data too, and send it back to google |
| 14:59.10 | ShadowJK | that and google spycar is how they've built up a large database of cellid to location mapping :-) |
| 14:59.32 | lardman | ShadowJK: yep, we could do likewise though if we really wanted to |
| 15:00.40 | ShadowJK | CI is updated once every 30 cycles :-) |
| 15:00.46 | *** join/#maemo avs (~avs@a88-113-5-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 15:00.53 | ShadowJK | yeah |
| 15:01.13 | DocScrutinizer | wut? |
| 15:01.22 | DocScrutinizer | every 30 cycles ?? o.O |
| 15:01.36 | DocScrutinizer | WTF?! |
| 15:01.44 | ShadowJK | There's a open cellid db iirc. But it was kinda weird, iirc.. And interest/momentum was somewhat lost after iOS/android came |
| 15:02.00 | DocScrutinizer | there are several |
| 15:02.31 | DocScrutinizer | openbmap being just one of those projects |
| 15:02.38 | chem|st | ok normal loop then so the file remains writable while >> is active |
| 15:03.09 | javispedro | I cannot believe that the same spanish l10n error microB has is also present in firefox... |
| 15:03.14 | chem|st | just have the *60 >>* running and every 600 I add a "normal" output to the file |
| 15:03.24 | ShadowJK | it's basically: if(cycles since last learning cycle > 30) CI=1 else CI=0; |
| 15:03.26 | javispedro | instead of "search history" being translated to, well, "search history", it was translated to "history of searches" |
| 15:03.48 | ShadowJK | I don't remember if it was 30, 50 or 15, but significantly > than 1 |
| 15:03.54 | lardman | thanks Doc |
| 15:04.05 | chem|st | ShadowJK: nope I had CI=1 with 12 cycles already (first time I had a look after) |
| 15:04.50 | DocScrutinizer | lardman: yw |
| 15:05.34 | ShadowJK | chem|st, maybe it never ever completed a learning cycle, this is quite likely with bme :-) |
| 15:05.55 | chem|st | cycles are increasing |
| 15:06.56 | ShadowJK | a learning cycle, not a cycle |
| 15:07.41 | chem|st | 21 cylces so there was a learning cylce ended 21 charges ago... |
| 15:08.58 | chem|st | 21 since last full reset |
| 15:09.04 | chem|st | 21 since learning |
| 15:10.02 | DocScrutinizer | ergo: never had any complete learning cycle |
| 15:10.56 | DocScrutinizer | counter for "since last learning" got reset with full reset |
| 15:11.10 | DocScrutinizer | but CI got set to 1 |
| 15:12.13 | ShadowJK | so LMD == iLMD now too, then :) |
| 15:13.35 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: btw since the chip's adjusting of actual capacity is limited to */ 1.25 (iirc) it might need several learning cycles till it drops from iLMD to the real value of ~1300 |
| 15:14.19 | DocScrutinizer | the chip isn't really designed for getting detached from battery cell |
| 15:14.42 | DocScrutinizer | also not meant to work with incorrect iLMD |
| 15:15.46 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: you should read the datasheet, and maybe |
| 15:15.52 | DocScrutinizer | ~batteryfaq |
| 15:15.52 | infobot | [batteryfaq] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers |
| 15:16.08 | DocScrutinizer | and my bq27000 script linked to in there |
| 15:16.54 | DocScrutinizer | it predates N900 and is for the 27000 variant, but they are identical modulo the I2C/HDQ interface |
| 15:17.11 | Lantizia | is there any way to lift the restriction of downloading Ovi apps via apt-get? |
| 15:17.29 | MohammadAG | is there a way to pipe microphone input to output? |
| 15:17.41 | Lantizia | the ovi web site bugs me, it's slow and boring |
| 15:17.47 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: hehehe, a GOOD question |
| 15:17.48 | Lantizia | like old people |
| 15:17.50 | MohammadAG | besides arecord + aplay, too slow |
| 15:18.01 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: MohammadAG: there is. |
| 15:18.14 | javispedro | it bypasses speaker protection so use at your own risk |
| 15:18.30 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: I gather there is, but it seems to need insane amount of coding a special app to do so |
| 15:18.32 | javispedro | either play with alsamixer (I do not remember the cotnrols atm) or download cfmradio source and play with the advaudio.c |
| 15:18.33 | MohammadAG | no gstreamer way? |
| 15:18.46 | lcuk | Lantizia, it bores you? |
| 15:18.47 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: nah, it wasn't very hard. |
| 15:19.03 | lcuk | walking around grocery shopping is boring |
| 15:19.09 | lcuk | but finding apps is fun |
| 15:19.12 | *** join/#maemo lostinmirkwood_ (~lostinmir@pool-72-68-93-33.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 15:19.17 | Lantizia | lcuk, more fun using apt-cache search :P |
| 15:19.27 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: there *should* be a gstreamer way too |
| 15:19.43 | javispedro | but it would be slower than arecord aplay |
| 15:20.27 | javispedro | I believe cfmradio uses what should be the fastest method that also uses pulseaudio (besides hacking pulseaudio itself; that is what module-loopback does) |
| 15:20.41 | javispedro | (remember reason to use pulse is speaker prot.) |
| 15:20.53 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: feel free to ping me (and/or SpeedEvil / ShadowJK ) if any questions related to bq27x00 (-datasheet) |
| 15:21.02 | Lantizia | MohammadAG, actually I remember you made a alternate apt-get didn't you on the forum for this? |
| 15:21.09 | Lantizia | if i can find it :S |
| 15:21.35 | chem|st | what I do not realy understand is how the learning reset works |
| 15:21.47 | Lantizia | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=830385&postcount=19 |
| 15:21.48 | Lantizia | :D |
| 15:21.56 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: a) I think there's neither arecord nor aplay (surprise, as it's the same binary ;-P) on maemo? |
| 15:22.15 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: ah, well, I guess not "by default" ;) |
| 15:22.21 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: b) even if there is, I don't think it would work without killing fsckng PA |
| 15:22.22 | ShadowJK | btw, I wouldn't run n900 to empty without bme. It cuts power to the cpu without warning, so there is danger of filesystem corruption. On Smartdevices' SmartQ5/Q7, this even made its emmc unusable :P |
| 15:23.45 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: the point was that if he thinks aplay+arecord is too slow, nothing sw-based is going to beat it |
| 15:23.55 | *** join/#maemo felipec (~felipec@nat/nokia/x-hynzuawavizuvkgj) |
| 15:23.55 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: c) you need proper amixer settings anyway, but it seems there is just NO "scenarios" (they call it scenarios in OM/SHR) to feed to either alsactrl or amixer, to make mic and speaker output work |
| 15:23.55 | ShadowJK | chem|st, if battery has been charged to full, then discharged to less than 3248mV, without any charging in between, without removing battery, then it adjusts its caibration towards what it measured |
| 15:23.59 | chem|st | ShadowJK: so what is your suggestion? |
| 15:24.47 | chem|st | ah ok that was the plan, |
| 15:25.13 | chem|st | didn't want it to die on it but wait till close to real empty and shutdown |
| 15:25.18 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: that's not *entirely* true, aiui the PMU is sending an IRQ to CPU prior to hard shutdown |
| 15:25.50 | lcuk | javispedro, using the code from arecord you could theoretically produce a marginally more optimal set of routines |
| 15:26.08 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: definitely not |
| 15:26.18 | javispedro | (well, you could do something in kernel-land =) ) |
| 15:26.23 | javispedro | that would be faster too =) |
| 15:26.30 | DocScrutinizer | of course |
| 15:26.53 | DocScrutinizer | for all I know arecord code sahould be "optimum" |
| 15:26.55 | javispedro | but I do believe there's _was_ a "scenario", which was how fmrx was done originally |
| 15:27.03 | javispedro | that is, using one of the bypasses |
| 15:27.09 | lcuk | javispedro, rm_work do you guys remember when I designed: http://liqbase.net/liq.20081102_235650.gary.scr.png |
| 15:27.23 | DocScrutinizer | you can tune it by passing weird parameters like mmap etc |
| 15:27.38 | rm_work | yes |
| 15:27.45 | rm_work | lcuk: yeah that was lulzy a bit |
| 15:27.49 | lcuk | I dug out the sketches used for the design :) |
| 15:27.50 | DocScrutinizer | but there's no feature of ALSA api that's not supported by arecord afaik |
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| 15:27.52 | lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.20110525_162059.liqrecentsketches_classic.scr.png |
| 15:28.20 | javispedro | heh |
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| 15:28.51 | rm_work | lcuk: i still am not sure exactly how that would work, as the colors displayed would be different depending on the brightness :P so it's a moving target |
| 15:28.52 | ShadowJK | chem|st, stop bme once you get your usual low battery warning. start "./charge21.sh" and "./bq2700.sh 5", monitor the bw window waiting for EDV1 column to change to 1. There'll also be a warning popup from bq27200.sh. Connect charger immediately. Wait until 15% charge. Disconnect charger. Wait 30s. Stop charge21.sh (ctrl-c). "start bme", wait 30s, connect charger. |
| 15:29.01 | rm_work | i guess it could be done, but seemed odd to me |
| 15:29.04 | lcuk | rm_work, it always is |
| 15:29.08 | rm_work | rather I would just expect a slider |
| 15:29.12 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: javispedro: so the main problem of arecord|aplay is the | ;-) |
| 15:29.17 | rm_work | IE, what ABL did :P |
| 15:29.18 | lcuk | but it is clear that min/max is all the way across the screen |
| 15:29.22 | rm_work | yeah |
| 15:29.27 | lcuk | and low at the left and high at the right |
| 15:29.38 | rm_work | which makes it, essentially, just as good as a slider, but with extra color :P |
| 15:29.41 | lcuk | the slider was listed as first principle |
| 15:29.54 | lcuk | the extra bit is the granuality |
| 15:30.04 | rm_work | yeah |
| 15:30.22 | lcuk | there was so many people (nokia included) saying "you only need 4 steps" |
| 15:30.27 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sounds nifty |
| 15:30.34 | lcuk | and others saying, I need 255 steps in 0.0000001 step increments |
| 15:30.39 | rm_work | that part is intriguing i suppose.... top slider puts you in ranges of 64 or so, and then second puts you in ranges of 8 inside that |
| 15:30.49 | lcuk | yeah |
| 15:30.54 | rm_work | and the bottom slider is all 8 |
| 15:30.59 | lcuk | nods |
| 15:31.01 | rm_work | yeah, i like the design actually |
| 15:31.06 | rm_work | but it's SOOOOO BIG |
| 15:31.10 | rm_work | omfg |
| 15:31.14 | lcuk | that is the bit that doesn't matter |
| 15:31.32 | rm_work | i feel like it belongs in a settings menu under "show me the crazy-huge advanced version" |
| 15:31.59 | rm_work | not as the default, but as a crazy config option for the "more concerned" |
| 15:32.06 | chem|st | ShadowJK: where do I get the charge21.sh and what does it do? |
| 15:32.19 | lcuk | rm_work, when it is in the control panel, it is the same size as a brightness icon |
| 15:32.55 | rm_work | yeah, i guess it pops down and onscures the whole screen, but that's ok, since it's temporary anyway |
| 15:32.58 | lcuk | so it was never crazy huge level |
| 15:33.00 | rm_work | *obscures |
| 15:33.02 | lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.20090625_222814.lib.scr.png |
| 15:33.30 | lcuk | rm_work, all this just came back and being reviewed because I collated all the sketches ever drawn |
| 15:33.36 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: you're aware the human eye can't tell brightness changes < *2 / *.5 ? |
| 15:33.38 | lcuk | and selected those which had decent info on them |
| 15:33.39 | rm_work | heh |
| 15:33.53 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, not important |
| 15:34.05 | lcuk | and we are not talking about humans, these are linux maemo petrol heads. |
| 15:34.07 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: Sure it can. |
| 15:34.09 | rm_work | yeah and most people can't tell the difference between reference monitor speakers and a $20 set of earbuds |
| 15:34.19 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: If they are relative, it can go _way_ deeper than that |
| 15:34.20 | rm_work | but people still spend $1000 on them and SWEAR they can |
| 15:34.21 | DocScrutinizer | so with 255 steps for linear brightness you got a reasonable range of max 8 steps for brightness |
| 15:34.29 | DocScrutinizer | HID |
| 15:34.31 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, choice is more important |
| 15:34.54 | lcuk | "The subsystem can handle 24bit brightness resolution, WHERE are my 16777215 levels???!!!!!" |
| 15:35.12 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: those aren't relative when it's about brightness setting of LCD-BL |
| 15:35.23 | rm_work | DocScrutinizer: I agree with you for the most part, though I would still allow maybe 10-12 just for super-sensitive people and special cases, so at that point it may as well be a slider |
| 15:35.27 | lcuk | dimmer switches in the home vs regular light switch etc |
| 15:36.00 | chem|st | ShadowJK: http://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge21.sh.txt that one? |
| 15:36.02 | SpeedEvil | For me at least - I want brightness levels lower than the '2 of 255' that is the hw minimum on the n900. |
| 15:36.09 | rm_work | I'm somewhere in the middle between the "crazy Nokians with their 4 brightness levels" and the "nutjobs who want MAXINT brightness adjustments" |
| 15:36.11 | DocScrutinizer | rm_work: I fully agree |
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| 15:36.27 | lcuk | rm_work, the brightness doofer I did happily bridged that gap |
| 15:36.33 | lcuk | without showing any extra ui |
| 15:36.41 | lcuk | really liked designing that :) |
| 15:36.44 | rm_work | heh |
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| 15:37.12 | MohammadAG | Lantizia, it's somewhere on mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/debfiles |
| 15:37.16 | lcuk | btw, the graffiti wall I am using is close to how original liqbase did it :) |
| 15:37.36 | rm_work | yeah, i do like that interface actually, it would work very well as either a fullscreen brightness changer on a handset (the taskbar icon is clicked and it pops up and essentially takes the whole screen) or as a widget on a tablet device |
| 15:37.38 | MohammadAG | javispedro, is there a quicker way? I'm on the road |
| 15:38.00 | rm_work | I am really looking forward to a real usable device |
| 15:38.03 | rm_work | so i can get back into meego dev |
| 15:39.15 | MohammadAG | javispedro, and it's for the FMTX, so speaker proetection isn't needed |
| 15:39.43 | javispedro | I wouldn't do it on the move for a first time because you might not be able to reset it |
| 15:39.50 | javispedro | to nroaml settings |
| 15:39.50 | ShadowJK | chem|st, that's the one |
| 15:39.51 | rm_work | meego/maemo dev |
| 15:40.12 | MohammadAG | javispedro, don't plan on changing controls |
| 15:40.23 | MohammadAG | but I remember a method on tmo using gstreamer |
| 15:40.29 | MohammadAG | and it was quite fast |
| 15:40.38 | javispedro | it will be slower than arecord |
| 15:41.01 | MohammadAG | it wasn't :p |
| 15:41.11 | javispedro | sth like gst-launch pulsesrc ! pulsesink shall work |
| 15:41.15 | MohammadAG | arecord + aplay are fast actually, but after sometime... |
| 15:41.50 | javispedro | you need gstreamer*-utils or whatever is called |
| 15:42.03 | javispedro | s/utils/tools |
| 15:42.48 | MohammadAG | actually that is slow... |
| 15:42.51 | javispedro | otherwise, get pulseaudio-utils and use parec | pacat |
| 15:43.51 | javispedro | everything will be slow (were talking 1sec), I do not know how a "fast" gstreamer method could exist. |
| 15:44.05 | MohammadAG | 1s is acceptable |
| 15:44.13 | MohammadAG | but arercord goes up to 5s after a min |
| 15:44.53 | chem|st | ShadowJK: ty |
| 15:45.05 | MohammadAG | javispedro, thanks |
| 15:46.35 | javispedro | might be a pulseaudio/alsa layer bug |
| 15:48.18 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: what? 5s skew/latency after 50s of piping arocord to aplay? |
| 15:48.25 | MohammadAG | it's only to shout at someone in a car |
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| 15:48.44 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: note that I remember that aplay & co would be using the pulseaudio alsa emulation on a n900 |
| 15:48.49 | javispedro | *remembered |
| 15:49.01 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: indeed |
| 15:49.15 | DocScrutinizer | and PA shit might mess up rate |
| 15:49.38 | javispedro | so this would be one situation where pacat would work better than aplay =) |
| 15:49.50 | DocScrutinizer | so quite easily the aplay via PA alsa plugin might be a few % slower than the rate of arecord |
| 15:50.16 | DocScrutinizer | ~nuke pukeaudio |
| 15:50.17 | infobot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pukeaudio ... Bâ¢â¢M! |
| 15:50.27 | javispedro | I need to backport the loopback PA module someday |
| 15:50.45 | DocScrutinizer | backport ? |
| 15:50.47 | javispedro | it allows you to configure the daemon to do that stuff for you, avoiding two IPC calls per packet.. |
| 15:50.55 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: yeah, was introduced in a more recent version of PA |
| 15:51.06 | DocScrutinizer | omfg |
| 15:51.39 | DocScrutinizer | ~kill pukeaudio, with fire |
| 15:51.39 | infobot | ACTION shoots a ionized graviton gun at pukeaudio, with fire |
| 15:51.46 | javispedro | would do wonders for PA-based radio apps battery life |
| 15:52.37 | javispedro | you cannot use large packet sizes because of increased latency, quite noticeable when tuning.. |
| 15:52.50 | javispedro | so small packets -> IPC overhead -> cpu usage. |
| 15:53.02 | DocScrutinizer | nukiing that friggin PA that follows that "APE centric approach" and reinvents the wheel, just without spokes, that would really help save some battery |
| 15:53.10 | javispedro | ~nuke pulseaudio |
| 15:53.11 | infobot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pulseaudio ... Bâ¢â¢M! |
| 15:53.36 | DocScrutinizer | wait til L.P. is near |
| 15:54.30 | DocScrutinizer | just some 30min ago it stroke me startupd is another einvention of the whell of upstart. Will this moron *never* learn? |
| 15:54.44 | javispedro | startupd? |
| 15:54.46 | javispedro | you mean systemd? |
| 15:54.50 | DocScrutinizer | err yes |
| 15:55.03 | derf | Huge record/play skews are very common. |
| 15:55.13 | derf | Because in most devices they use separate clocks. |
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| 15:55.17 | DocScrutinizer | derf: on PA, you bet they are |
| 15:55.31 | derf | I mean in the hardware... way before it gets to software. |
| 15:55.46 | DocScrutinizer | derf: sane drivers know how to deal with that |
| 15:56.02 | derf | You let me know when you find sane drivers. |
| 15:56.15 | DocScrutinizer | PA and L.P. started to come up with a "solution" that simply ignores that fact |
| 15:57.37 | DocScrutinizer | derf: a proper concept does NO assumptions on the accuracy of hw clocks for AD and DA, just syncing buffers in a way that fills/yanks frames or buffer segments when needed |
| 15:58.27 | DocScrutinizer | derf: you got that problem for syncing audio to a video stream ALL the time |
| 15:58.50 | DocScrutinizer | and there are evidently working concepts how to deal with it |
| 15:59.04 | derf | Syncing audio and video is completely different. |
| 15:59.20 | DocScrutinizer | definitely not |
| 15:59.24 | derf | You just measure the audio playout rate and display video frames accordingly. |
| 16:00.01 | DocScrutinizer | you got still one master clock (usually systemclock) and a number of not synced clocks for the streams that need close supervision and adjustment |
| 16:01.32 | DocScrutinizer | same thing for RTP (VoIP), even more complex there as you not only got your local AD and DA clock and systemclock master, but also those of the far end which you need to sync to |
| 16:02.09 | derf | No one actually uses the system clock to sync audio and video. |
| 16:02.22 | DocScrutinizer | audio / streaming-at-large isn't for noobs |
| 16:02.42 | derf | As for RTP... most things just drop packets and/or invoke PLC to stretch the audio. |
| 16:03.04 | DocScrutinizer | derf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false |
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| 16:03.33 | derf | Okay, show me a system that actually resamples to keep things in sync. |
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| 16:03.57 | DocScrutinizer | pff, look for yourself, you'll find some |
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| 16:04.03 | derf | Uh huh. |
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| 16:04.55 | DocScrutinizer | and e.g twinkle definitely uses systemclock to sync the up to 6 audio streams |
| 16:05.23 | DocScrutinizer | not to talkj about all the windows commercial video players |
| 16:05.27 | promgvm | hello |
| 16:06.56 | DocScrutinizer | derf: btw your initial assumption also is incorrect, in most devices the audio card has only one master clock that's used to scale down to the different AD and DA channels' samplerate |
| 16:07.53 | DocScrutinizer | so generally they are "same clock" |
| 16:08.31 | DocScrutinizer | at least as rec and pb are same audiocard |
| 16:08.31 | SpeedEvil | Systems with multiple 'audio cards' |
| 16:08.55 | DocScrutinizer | ...have hacks you find in internet to sync their clocks |
| 16:09.01 | DocScrutinizer | hw mods |
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| 16:09.22 | DocScrutinizer | for studio grade multitrack recording |
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| 16:10.09 | DocScrutinizer | nobody's going to implement separate hw clock generator chips on a single soundcard for rec and pb |
| 16:10.42 | DocScrutinizer | no sane rationale to spend the additional money for a useless and bad feature |
| 16:11.21 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 16:13.45 | DocScrutinizer | but obviously PA author L.P. had NFC about all that |
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| 16:15.10 | DocScrutinizer | btw this common clock being the only rationale why ALSA devices always consist of a downstream&upstream |
| 16:15.54 | SpeedEvil | If you're wanting to be truyly arbitrary about I and O, you need to support resampling. |
| 16:16.28 | derf | So, I downloaded the twinkle source and spent a few minutes looking. |
| 16:16.31 | DocScrutinizer | which ALSA does via "plug" and "resample" plugins, on your discretion |
| 16:16.34 | derf | It does not resample to maintain sync. |
| 16:16.40 | derf | Instead it drops packets, just like I said. |
| 16:16.57 | DocScrutinizer | I never clamed anything else |
| 16:17.10 | DocScrutinizer | and indeed I never suggested resampling |
| 16:17.28 | derf | 12:02:41 < derf> As for RTP... most things just drop packets and/or invoke PLC to stretch the audio. |
| 16:17.29 | DocScrutinizer | for dynamic syncing of streams |
| 16:17.32 | derf | 12:03:04 < DocScrutinizer> derf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false |
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| 16:18.12 | derf | 12:03:32 < derf> Okay, show me a system that actually resamples to keep things in sync. |
| 16:18.15 | derf | 12:03:57 < DocScrutinizer> pff, look for yourself, you'll find some |
| 16:18.30 | derf | That seems to be the opposite of "never suggeseted resampling". |
| 16:18.46 | derf | I'm going to stop talking to you now, as I don't think you have a clue. |
| 16:18.52 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-05-25 18:02:08] <derf> No one actually uses the system clock to sync audio and video. [2011-05-25 18:03:03] <DocScrutinizer> derf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false |
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| 16:19.47 | derf | I said "audio and video" for a reason... your counter-example was multiple audio streams. Which I already said was a completely different case. |
| 16:19.54 | derf | Anyway. |
| 16:19.56 | derf | -= The End =- |
| 16:20.14 | DocScrutinizer | derf: I'm fine with you stopping talking to me now, as *I* think you think I'm an idiot |
| 16:21.38 | DocScrutinizer | and I think you're probably in a relatively small and exclusive club with this notion - at least when it comes to my technical merits |
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| 16:30.21 | Lantizia | MohammadAG, Lo, I'm using your modified apt package so I can download packages normally restricted to having to use the Ovi Store (handy when you want a one-liner apt-get to get all your apps back)... are all the Ovi stuff in the maemo.nokia.com repo? like I'm found bounce and angrybirds but not the angry birds levels or even firefox |
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| 16:31.47 | MohammadAG | Lantizia, yep |
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| 16:34.19 | Lantizia | MohammadAG, any easy way of finding the corresponding names? (apt-cache search doesn't seem to be helping me much) also what about the pay-for ovi apps? they in there too? (paid for the levels you see) |
| 16:34.51 | Lantizia | brb need to pop to vets |
| 16:36.08 | MohammadAG | paid ones are on a different server |
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| 17:04.56 | ShadowJK | most (all?) video players use audio clock as "master clock".. System clock is only used to sleep until estimated next video or audio frame |
| 17:05.55 | ShadowJK | Alsa plugins and pulseaudio type things can often lose resolution and accuracy of reading the audio clock, causing audio/video desync or jittery framerates and/or choppy audio |
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| 17:10.56 | ShadowJK | Considering the architecture for most video players were designed when P3-500 was a reasonable cpu in the "performance" class, where resampling 44.1kHz stereo took 30% CPU, it was never even considered :) |
| 17:11.59 | Jaffa | Morning, all |
| 17:12.28 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: it's basically irrelevant what's your master clock. The point is you have to nominate just ONE master clock, and sync all the media streams to that, by either inserting/dropping whole audio snippets (packages) or single samples/frames (which is a sort of poor man's resampling), or by dynamically adjusting the slave clock of the media stream running out of sync. Basically same applies to video. Esp if you're playing a 25fps video |
| 17:12.30 | DocScrutinizer | to a video-card/monitor that's running at an arbitrary vsync of e.g 77.8Hz |
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| 17:15.02 | ShadowJK | the good thing is that your video clock is (almost) always faster than your video stream, so there's no need to start interpolating or resampling video in time domain |
| 17:15.31 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
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| 17:15.45 | ShadowJK | but with audio you'd get stutter, crackling or overlapping segments if you had such an approach |
| 17:16.18 | DocScrutinizer | usually doesn't really matter that much - at least on voip that's the common approach |
| 17:17.29 | DocScrutinizer | resample (e.g by alsa plughw plugin) to the roughly correct sample rate for the hw, the insert/drop single (usually) 20ms buffer segments |
| 17:18.10 | ShadowJK | I think people are less sensitive to distortion in telephony for historical reasons |
| 17:18.32 | DocScrutinizer | for that you need a somewhat accurate idea of how much is your audio buffer's fill up |
| 17:19.12 | DocScrutinizer | and it seems that's exactly where PA fails on alsa compatibility plugin |
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| 17:20.25 | DocScrutinizer | it never shows up on playing back usual mp3/wav/whatever as in that case your audio hw is the master clock source |
| 17:20.32 | ShadowJK | in many cases it works better than alsa's dmix plugin :-) |
| 17:20.52 | ShadowJK | dmix is a master of losing buffer fill info |
| 17:20.52 | DocScrutinizer | but it spoils your audio as soon as your app tries to closely manage the audio buffer directly |
| 17:21.16 | DocScrutinizer | never seen this happening on twinkle |
| 17:21.54 | DocScrutinizer | there is one alsa function call that sometimes fails, twinkle audiodev takes care to work around this |
| 17:22.38 | DocScrutinizer | iirc it's been exactly about get_buffer_fill_percentage() or buffer_reset() or whatever |
| 17:23.16 | ShadowJK | get_delay too |
| 17:23.37 | DocScrutinizer | who does need that anyway? |
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| 17:24.49 | ShadowJK | you want to know how big the buffer (software and hw buffers) is so you can time video to audio |
| 17:25.30 | ShadowJK | buffer resets are generally so time consuming and messy on alsa you'd be better off making up shit to feed the buffer so it doesn't run empty |
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| 17:27.09 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: (want to know how big) on ALSA you *define* size of buffer on opening a audiodevice |
| 17:28.16 | DocScrutinizer | if you need low latency close timing control audio, you go for smal segment sizes and also few segment sizes of your audio buffer |
| 17:28.41 | DocScrutinizer | s/few segment sizes/few segments/. |
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| 17:32.02 | ShadowJK | defininig it only works within the limitations of the harware and the plugins. Every plugin that does something non-trivial adds a buffer. From buffer fill you can calculate a time, but that time is "time until exception", get delay is "time until buffer tail comes out of speaker" |
| 17:33.39 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: I'm not sure about that, as in "that's not a buffer that adds latency, it justgets one chunk of data, processes it in max CPU grunt way it can, and passes it down to next plugin" |
| 17:34.22 | DocScrutinizer | there's no double commit A/B swap or whatever |
| 17:34.45 | DocScrutinizer | afaik |
| 17:35.47 | DocScrutinizer | this async "each plugin has a buffer" approach is what PA does aiui |
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| 17:36.28 | DocScrutinizer | while for all I know the ALSA plugin stack should be strictly sync from bottom up to app API |
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| 17:38.47 | DocScrutinizer | that's why all the get_delay() rant L.P. started on ALSA is not very coherent to me |
| 17:39.31 | DocScrutinizer | I *could* be completely wrong though |
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| 17:40.52 | ShadowJK | So dmix has this single buffer, and has to wait on every client to feed it a single frame, before it can be fed further on? |
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| 17:41.52 | ShadowJK | and if it has to wait and can't accept more data, what does it report through buffer fill, and what happens to apps that tries feed it more? :p |
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| 17:43.00 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: (has to wait for each client) that'S the idea of an event driven API, yes |
| 17:43.53 | DocScrutinizer | what happens to apps that try feed more? duh! they block on write(), no? |
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| 17:44.48 | DocScrutinizer | (most simply API concept, of course you can also do a nonblock write(), and several other interface designs) |
| 17:45.09 | DocScrutinizer | (up to callback) |
| 17:45.28 | ShadowJK | so while dmix waits, the buffer to the app is full, but audio runs, and you get a difference between buffer fill and get delay :p |
| 17:46.15 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sorry, I have to run. But your between-the-lines concern isn't applying |
| 17:46.25 | DocScrutinizer | it's how hw buffered IO works |
| 17:46.30 | DocScrutinizer | all hw IO |
| 17:50.11 | DocScrutinizer | if you need a delay <hw-buffersize, then you need to config hw to use a smaller buffer. There's no other way |
| 17:50.19 | DocScrutinizer | bbl |
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| 17:52.21 | RST38h | http://imprint.printmag.com/daily-heller/a-curious-similarity/ |
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| 17:58.19 | yigal | I want to share my home's wireless connection from my n900 -> a computer with no wifi, but with bluetooth and usb. I've used http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking#Host_USB_Network_Configuration to connect the devices via usb, the computer is running Ubuntu 11.04. I'm hoping someone here might know how to do it and is willing to help me set it up. |
| 17:59.25 | yigal | Right now I'm connected via bluetooth but that isn't as fast a connection as I could have using usb |
| 18:00.03 | Itschue | hello |
| 18:00.10 | yigal | hello |
| 18:00.28 | SpeedEvil | yigal: You mean you want the n900 to act like a wifi card for your computer? |
| 18:00.36 | SpeedEvil | Not 3g? |
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| 18:02.29 | yigal | SpeedEvil: yes, I mean right now I believe that is what I'm doing via bluetooth |
| 18:03.02 | yigal | SpeedEvil: there is at least no sign that my 3g is working but a sign shows wifi, and I have the device connected via bluetooth the my n900 |
| 18:03.08 | SpeedEvil | In principle - bring up the wifi interface - then raise the USB interface, then set routes. |
| 18:03.24 | yigal | SpeedEvil: it's the routing that I'm ???? |
| 18:03.36 | yigal | SpeedEvil: I'll look into it |
| 18:04.15 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I'm tired. I've done this before - but I forgot. |
| 18:04.21 | SpeedEvil | Hack - you can use socks and ssh -D |
| 18:05.13 | yigal | SpeedEvil: true enough :D, I'm glad that you were able to get it going before |
| 18:05.30 | *** join/#maemo jo-erlend (~jo-erlend@94.80-203-106.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:07.00 | yigal | gives me hope |
| 18:07.07 | yigal | :D |
| 18:07.23 | jo-erlend | My N900 is dead and has been for a few days now. I thought the battery was empty, because when I started it, it suddenly shut down after a few seconds. It now looks like the usb plug may be damaged, but I've connected the USB cable and the LED flashes read very shortly and every second or so. |
| 18:07.32 | jo-erlend | it seems similar to this issue: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/t5/Maemo-Devices/OMG-My-N900-won-t-charge-just-a-blinking-RED-light-flashes-when/td-p/715929 |
| 18:07.56 | jo-erlend | any advise will be greatly appreciated. Specially if it leads to my being able to get it back up and running. |
| 18:09.17 | ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, from video player pov, I don't need low delay, delay can be whatever and if the audio subsystems buffers 60 secs that's fine too, but whatever the delay is, I want to know it :p |
| 18:09.17 | jo-erlend | it is suggested that this might be a security issue caused by turning the device on and off many times and that reflashing it might do the trick. The question, then, becomes: how? I can't get any life in it at all. |
| 18:09.42 | jo-erlend | the red LED flash is the biggest lifesign I've seen yet. |
| 18:09.49 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: that's pure nonsense |
| 18:10.11 | ShadowJK | red flash every second or so sounds like the charger chip emitting an error, resetting, and retrying |
| 18:10.25 | jo-erlend | ShadowJK, any ideas? |
| 18:11.09 | DocScrutinizer | jo-erlend: get a new battery |
| 18:11.32 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: ,,,from a ALSA PoV |
| 18:11.39 | jo-erlend | DocScrutinizer, I've never had any problems with the battery before though. |
| 18:11.49 | Itschue | DocScrutinizer i think my n900 i now working wihout reboot error after several flashs |
| 18:11.59 | DocScrutinizer | jo-erlend: yoh, it just breaks at a certain moment |
| 18:12.09 | MohammadAG | ~seen timeless_xchat |
| 18:12.16 | infobot | timeless_xchat <~timeless@firefox/developer/timeless> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 2d 19h 53m 51s ago, saying: 'sivang: what's that url i need?'. |
| 18:12.16 | jo-erlend | but I seem to recall that it is possible for the battery to be so drained that it cannot be charged using the phone? |
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| 18:12.24 | SpeedEvil | jo-erlend: nope. |
| 18:12.31 | ShadowJK | I don't care how big the delay is,because any sensible sized audio buffers will inherently have too big a delay anyway, so I always have to feed the audio much ahead of video anyways |
| 18:12.42 | SpeedEvil | jo-erlend: It charges in hardware to a minimal level, without anything booting up. |
| 18:13.05 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: what makes you think "any sensible sized buffer is too big"? |
| 18:13.47 | jo-erlend | when I try to charge using a USB cable to my computer, then it flashes red. If I connect the charger that uses my wall as power source, then nothing happens. Any ideas why this might be the case? |
| 18:14.03 | jacekowski | jo-erlend: connection problems |
| 18:14.41 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: ALSA could handle buffers down to 2 segmants of 1 frame each, I guess |
| 18:15.45 | DocScrutinizer | which would mean your app has to have realy short latency when the signal arives, whatever it is SIGIOWAIT or dunno what |
| 18:15.49 | ShadowJK | jo-erlend, no it doesn't indicate a security measure. It indicates that there is a charging problem. The problem could be your dc adapter, cable, plug, port, n900, battery terminals, battery pins, or battery |
| 18:16.50 | ShadowJK | I mean you'd have issues reliably keeping the buffer filled |
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| 18:17.02 | jo-erlend | no doubt, it is the plug in the phone that's faulty. I wiggled a little bit and I got that orange light indicating that it was charging and that little shake to indicate that it was switching on, but then it died. |
| 18:17.34 | SpeedEvil | jo-erlend: have you tried replacing the USB cable? |
| 18:17.55 | DocScrutinizer | cleaning the receptacle cavities |
| 18:18.18 | DocScrutinizer | check with a magnifying glass |
| 18:19.22 | jo-erlend | SpeedEvil, yes. the charger works if I hold it properly. the usb cable only flashes red. |
| 18:20.30 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: so use a larger buffer spec when opening the ALSA device, and be sure your delay is N-1 segments * samplerate * frames/segment when your app gets signalled to deliver the next chunk of data - after initial fill up of whole buffer with N segments of data |
| 18:20.31 | ShadowJK | usb cable connected to a hub, laptop, front usb ports on a desktop, back port on a desktop pc? |
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| 18:22.05 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: that's how buffering is supposed to work |
| 18:22.34 | DocScrutinizer | (of course ALSA has way more nifty things like min-fill and max-fill thresholds etc) |
| 18:22.54 | DocScrutinizer | but basically that's the way things work |
| 18:24.12 | DocScrutinizer | it's quite impossible and also useless to get current delay to a resolution < one segment worth of audio |
| 18:24.53 | ShadowJK | All I want to know is how many bytes are in the buffer, and how much delay there is between buffers empty and sound from speakers stopping (the last one is often sufficiently close to 0 that it doesn't matter). get_delay is supposed to be both combined |
| 18:25.21 | DocScrutinizer | where delay = actual_real_time - currently_played_back_timestamp |
| 18:26.36 | jo-erlend | is it normal for N900 to make a ... muted bell sound when it dies from lack of power? |
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| 18:26.50 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 18:27.03 | zakkkkm | Should i enable HWSYNC? |
| 18:27.21 | DocScrutinizer | though for me it sounds more like an alien got beaten to death by a piano |
| 18:28.36 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: you fill your audio buffe with segment 1 + 2, you start video and audio same moment. When ALSA asks for segment 3 you know it just finsihed with segment 1 |
| 18:28.58 | ShadowJK | actually ideal time ref for get_delay would be audio clock ;p |
| 18:28.59 | DocScrutinizer | (assuming a 2 segments buffer) |
| 18:30.53 | ShadowJK | it works perfectly if you have for example frag-size 1024 and fragments 16 in alsa, because you get buffer fill un multiples of 1024 and get_delay in worst case has granularity similar to that |
| 18:31.04 | DocScrutinizer | if your video is still in timeframe of segment one when alsa asks for segment 3 then you're late on video playback. when you're a large way into timeframe 2 or even started 3 then you'Re too fast with video -do whatever you need to correct it |
| 18:31.31 | DocScrutinizer | same applies for a buffer consisting of 8 or 16 segments accordingly |
| 18:31.50 | ShadowJK | but then all bets are off if you don't talk to the hw device anymore and have to go through a plugin chain, and you get all sorts of weird buffer sizes and fragment numbers, and granularities |
| 18:31.53 | DocScrutinizer | no need for get_delay() *really* |
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| 18:32.32 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sorry, don't see any of the issues you just mentioned |
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| 18:34.31 | ShadowJK | your method is fine, but in practice you get fewer segments than you asked for, and much bigger segments than you asked for |
| 18:34.52 | MohammadAG | <jo-erlend> is it normal for N900 to make a ... muted bell sound when it dies from lack of power? |
| 18:34.55 | DocScrutinizer | anyway bottom line is: PissAudio isn't going to cure *any* of the problems related to audio playback |
| 18:34.58 | MohammadAG | the splashscreen makes that sound |
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| 18:36.29 | jo-erlend | MohammadAG, oh, ok. Well, after wiggling the plug a little bit, I could see that familiar orange LED and it tried to boot, showing those dots before it made that sound and died. :/ |
| 18:37.11 | jo-erlend | have any of you people attempted to fix a broken USB connection? How difficult is it to get to and is there lots of electronics close to it? |
| 18:38.18 | MohammadAG | I'm pretty sure someone did it |
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| 18:41.17 | lcuk | jo-erlend, http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-04-22.log.html#t2011-04-22T17:15:17 |
| 18:41.32 | lcuk | would not work at all if the usb plug has actually come off the board fully |
| 18:41.40 | lcuk | but seems to work nicely |
| 18:41.40 | ShadowJK | pulseaudio only works or adds a benefit when it has exclusive access to the audio device, because then it can actually get the parameters it asks for, and provide accurate timing and buffer fill info to its clients. The additional benefit is of course that it has documentation, and that the documentation is comprehensible to more people than the ones who wrote it ;p |
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| 18:42.42 | MohammadAG | eldar's rumors are getting boring |
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| 18:44.35 | jacekowski | ShadowJK: what? |
| 18:44.47 | jacekowski | ShadowJK: pulseaudio is source of problems |
| 18:44.53 | jacekowski | and that's all |
| 18:45.20 | ShadowJK | Arguably the effort spent on pulseaudio could've been spent on fixing alsa bugs, alsa api, and alsa docs instead, but that brings us back to to alsa being incomprehensible to everyone except those who wrote it, and a few others |
| 18:45.55 | jacekowski | that's why there are things like openAL and other friendly libraries |
| 18:46.10 | DocScrutinizer | jacekowski: indeed |
| 18:46.19 | RST38h | throws up at the mention of OpenAL |
| 18:46.46 | DocScrutinizer | none of the arguments to start PukeAudio holds valid or delivers after 2 (?) years with this shit |
| 18:46.48 | RST38h | Once again, someone should simply update /dev/dsp API to the latest trends |
| 18:46.57 | RST38h | Screw ALSA, PA, OpenAL, etc |
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| 18:47.33 | RST38h | add userspace mixing if necessary, use sockets instead of dev nodes |
| 18:47.45 | ShadowJK | OSS :) |
| 18:48.35 | ShadowJK | iirc oss comes with libalsa interface these days too |
| 18:48.41 | RST38h | Also, preventively kill or castrate anyone who comes up with his own audio framework |
| 18:49.14 | *** join/#maemo wam (~wam@unaffiliated/wam) |
| 18:50.31 | ruskie | don't need libalsa interface |
| 18:50.41 | ruskie | just install alsa-lib and redirect all output via asoundrc |
| 18:51.13 | ruskie | there's some alsa plugin as well involved iirc |
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| 19:09.26 | ShadowJK | Well, alsa had, what, 5 years, and nothing happened after those years of user and distro despair :) |
| 19:09.31 | *** join/#maemo mirsal (~mirsal@videolan/developer/Mirsal) |
| 19:10.10 | ShadowJK | So I guess it's only fair to let something else try for another 5 years :P |
| 19:10.34 | DocScrutinizer | feels so SICK |
| 19:11.15 | ShadowJK | iirc, the guy who started pulseaudio was also one of those "argh, not yet another audio framework and daemon" guys, amusingly enough :P |
| 19:11.25 | ruskie | most are |
| 19:11.38 | ShadowJK | (maybe that made him actually try use alsa) |
| 19:11.39 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: orly? L.P.?? nah! |
| 19:13.19 | ShadowJK | I might be thinking of one of the other projects that started at about same time as pulseaudio :) |
| 19:13.23 | DocScrutinizer | afaict he just looked at ALSA, said "Meh, how's delay handled there? Now this is something I can do better (and ignore all the rest of really highly qualified devel crowd)" |
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| 19:14.20 | DocScrutinizer | he also postulated ALSA has no (working) dmix, and no per app volume (aka softvol plugin) |
| 19:15.14 | DocScrutinizer | fact is dmix always worked for me, while PA caused nothing but pain in hte ass for its implementation of mixing 0 to 0 and eating 30% of CPU to do that |
| 19:17.45 | DocScrutinizer | and the friggin volume-per-app been published by me (rather late after it got available) here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/twinklephone/message/1731 -- when got PukeAudio started? |
| 19:17.54 | ShadowJK | dmix never worked for me. the example confs don't work, and dmix's "stealth" sound daemon hangs all the time :/ |
| 19:20.39 | ShadowJK | You know, alsa might be superior technically in every way, but it doesn't matter if nobody can figure out how to properly set it up |
| 19:21.02 | ruskie | with alsa I mostly wondered why I had to set things up |
| 19:21.10 | ruskie | instead of the thing just working |
| 19:21.46 | ShadowJK | heh :P |
| 19:21.59 | ruskie | oss4 just worked |
| 19:22.09 | ruskie | per-app, multiple apps accessing it |
| 19:23.12 | nox- | that btw also how things are on freebsd |
| 19:23.19 | nox- | oss compatible |
| 19:24.27 | DocScrutinizer | ruskie: just like ALSA did for me, since 1.01 the latest |
| 19:25.05 | DocScrutinizer | actually mostly since 0.99 |
| 19:25.26 | DocScrutinizer | before that dmix wasn't set up correctly by default |
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| 19:26.40 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: btw how the hell is PA going to offer better data to user than ALSA, when it got direct access to the hw audiocard, which in the end for PA is... ALSA |
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| 19:28.15 | DocScrutinizer | PA is just hiding the direct access to hw parameters that you get via ALSA API, and gives you info about PA's own borked internals instead |
| 19:28.52 | ShadowJK | Because it doesn't go through dmix, or any other plugins. That's where the problems start :) |
| 19:29.02 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 19:29.20 | DocScrutinizer | show me the problems introduced by dmix |
| 19:29.40 | DocScrutinizer | you can do very easily, by using aplay -v |
| 19:29.55 | ShadowJK | First link me a friggin conf of working dmix ;p |
| 19:29.57 | DocScrutinizer | and pasting the diagnostic output - I doubt PA got sth similar |
| 19:30.37 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: you won't find any working on your PA infected system |
| 19:31.27 | DocScrutinizer | and sorry, but no - I can't tell you what to do to get rid of PA to test plain dmix |
| 19:31.28 | ShadowJK | My debian box doesn't have pulseaudio |
| 19:34.38 | MohammadAG | UTF-8 is unicode right? |
| 19:34.59 | ShadowJK | In the sense that hamburger is food, yes |
| 19:35.17 | lcuk | MohammadAG, UTF-8 is an 8bit encoding of unicode |
| 19:36.00 | MohammadAG | thanks |
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| 19:37.54 | licensed | anybody already work with opencv with python? i'm trying "import cv" and "import opencv" and i got "No Module Named opencv |
| 19:38.42 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: http://www.xs4all.nl/~mfnboer/twinkle/faq.html#alsa_no_sound /faq -> general 1) |
| 19:38.58 | DocScrutinizer | ~rape xs4all |
| 19:38.59 | infobot | ACTION takes xs4all behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams |
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| 19:42.47 | DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: if there's no similar definition anywhere on your debian system, then go kick somebody else's arse |
| 19:43.36 | DocScrutinizer | this is really bare standard on all boxes I installed since ~5 years |
| 19:43.46 | ShadowJK | /etc/alsa is pretty much empty |
| 19:44.01 | DocScrutinizer | try usr/hsare/alsa |
| 19:44.17 | DocScrutinizer | toldya it's *standard* |
| 19:46.10 | DocScrutinizer | since ALSA0.99 |
| 19:46.16 | DocScrutinizer | or 1.01 |
| 19:46.42 | DocScrutinizer | so no more need to get it into /etc |
| 19:47.41 | DocScrutinizer | NB ALSA got sponsored and maintained by SuSE, and this is from a SuSE(8?) box |
| 19:48.16 | DocScrutinizer | it's quite possible other distros never got the turn to properly set up ALSA on their shit |
| 19:48.55 | DocScrutinizer | and possibly that's also been the *true* reason to start PA |
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| 19:51.12 | DocScrutinizer | and you bet the ALSA integration into distros won't get any better since PA came over us like plague |
| 19:53.21 | ShadowJK | It's not like anyone actually understands how to do "alsa integration"... |
| 19:53.47 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, way too hard to c&p those files in /usr/share/alsa |
| 19:54.28 | DocScrutinizer | I admit frankly I also don't understand all of that, but it "just works" - for me, on OpenSUSE |
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| 19:55.20 | MoonTiger | hi guys |
| 19:55.22 | MoonTiger | :) |
| 19:55.27 | DocScrutinizer | yo MoonTiger |
| 19:55.36 | DocScrutinizer | how's life with your new N900? |
| 19:55.39 | MoonTiger | can you help me get the sdk tools set up ? |
| 19:55.42 | MoonTiger | loving it |
| 19:55.44 | MoonTiger | :) |
| 19:55.56 | MoonTiger | i followed the wiki instructions but got nowhere |
| 19:56.22 | MoonTiger | i have the vm running on my windows partition but i hate windows |
| 19:56.38 | MoonTiger | i have an xubuntu partition just for maemo dev work |
| 19:56.47 | MoonTiger | but cannot get it up and running *sigh* |
| 19:56.48 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: join your request with damnshock who should be here as he asked same question in #maemo-ssu and got advised to ask here |
| 19:57.19 | MoonTiger | i'll give it another go but it didn't end well |
| 19:57.22 | MoonTiger | :) |
| 19:57.32 | MoonTiger | i want to wite a sharing plugin for my website |
| 19:57.40 | MoonTiger | then do a few small aps |
| 19:58.15 | MoonTiger | laging a bit too i think |
| 19:58.21 | DocScrutinizer | suggests to open #maemo-get_sdk_up channel, with fixed schedules when an experienced devel is helping newbies to get that pile-o-shit running |
| 19:59.00 | MoonTiger | heh i'm not technically a noob on either linux or dev work ... or even maemo to be honest ... so i *should* be able to do it |
| 19:59.08 | MoonTiger | i'll try again and report back |
| 19:59.10 | MoonTiger | ;) |
| 19:59.26 | DocScrutinizer | I'll ask x-fade to add 50 karma points to that brave devel's account ;-D |
| 20:00.02 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: it's for sure a good idea to get help here. It seems a LOT of users fail on that enigma |
| 20:00.35 | *** join/#maemo BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) |
| 20:00.36 | MoonTiger | ok thnx ... i want to try again now anyways and it doesnt matter if i screw this whole install up as its just for this |
| 20:00.41 | DocScrutinizer | and there seems to be few to no proper wiki pages to instruct |
| 20:00.42 | merlin1991 | sb comes straight from hell |
| 20:00.56 | DocScrutinizer | indeed merlin1991 |
| 20:01.05 | MoonTiger | it does that |
| 20:01.39 | MoonTiger | maybe its just easier to dev on the N900 itself :) |
| 20:01.58 | merlin1991 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation |
| 20:02.04 | merlin1991 | covers it enough though |
| 20:02.11 | merlin1991 | at least I was able to install it that way myself :D |
| 20:02.19 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG is a really great instructor when it comes to SDK / SB - I am afraid he got fed up by the job though ;-D |
| 20:02.26 | MoonTiger | merlin1991, yah i went thru that but it leads nowhere |
| 20:02.34 | merlin1991 | but the whole process takes forever |
| 20:02.38 | MoonTiger | i'll try it again |
| 20:02.40 | merlin1991 | MoonTiger: what's your base os? |
| 20:02.51 | MoonTiger | i tried to use the wizard thing and i think tha might be what srewed up |
| 20:03.10 | MoonTiger | i installed a xubuntu 11.04 just for this on a spare partition |
| 20:03.28 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: hint#1: the script there for installation is worth nuttin |
| 20:03.36 | MoonTiger | i figured |
| 20:03.43 | MoonTiger | i'll start over and do it manually |
| 20:03.49 | DocScrutinizer | exactly |
| 20:03.53 | merlin1991 | the wizards suxx |
| 20:04.01 | MoonTiger | it seemed too nice to be true |
| 20:04.03 | DocScrutinizer | nah it just simply FAILS |
| 20:04.13 | MoonTiger | yah ... it dies half way thru |
| 20:04.17 | merlin1991 | but this has proven to work: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Installing_Maemo_5_SDK_on_x86-32_Debian_based_distribution |
| 20:04.28 | merlin1991 | get the 2 sh chmod them dun them be happy |
| 20:04.34 | merlin1991 | s/dun/run/ |
| 20:04.35 | DocScrutinizer | and, as MohammadAG (?) said: there's no resume, so go thru dl-hell over and over again |
| 20:04.48 | MoonTiger | right |
| 20:04.54 | MoonTiger | i'll report back :) |
| 20:04.57 | MoonTiger | thnx |
| 20:05.03 | DocScrutinizer | yw |
| 20:06.31 | *** join/#maemo mesx (~mesx@89-172-225-133.adsl.net.t-com.hr) |
| 20:07.29 | merlin1991 | I wonder what sb is going todo when I install meego sdk to the same machine |
| 20:07.45 | merlin1991 | prob running some hidden rm -rf /megosdk script :D |
| 20:08.14 | MoonTiger | minimal bootstrap or which install? |
| 20:08.55 | MoonTiger | runtime and all dev pkgs? |
| 20:08.56 | merlin1991 | MoonTiger: what are the other options? |
| 20:09.04 | merlin1991 | yea that sounds reasonable |
| 20:09.09 | MoonTiger | coolio |
| 20:09.21 | merlin1991 | prepare for quite some dl |
| 20:09.32 | MoonTiger | ok well its downloading stuff so thats good :) |
| 20:09.36 | merlin1991 | especially when you come to the nokia binary stuff |
| 20:09.39 | MoonTiger | makes some tea |
| 20:09.43 | DocScrutinizer | some 2GB, you shoud have twice that free on / |
| 20:09.54 | MoonTiger | i have 14Gb for this partition |
| 20:10.32 | DocScrutinizer | should fit :-) |
| 20:11.03 | DocScrutinizer | scratchbox, the idiot package that installs to / |
| 20:11.31 | merlin1991 | I actually would suggest installing sb to a vm image |
| 20:11.40 | merlin1991 | and instantly making a snapshot after finishing the install |
| 20:11.48 | merlin1991 | I did mess mine up beyond repair |
| 20:11.51 | merlin1991 | twice |
| 20:12.00 | DocScrutinizer | nah, that's level 2 of the adventure |
| 20:12.18 | MoonTiger | its ok ... this partition is like a vm for me |
| 20:12.31 | MoonTiger | chromium and sync is neat |
| 20:12.36 | merlin1991 | yeah but partition != snapshot you can revert to :D |
| 20:12.47 | MoonTiger | its all part of the fun |
| 20:13.00 | snappy | How do I identify which device is the sdcard from the shell? |
| 20:13.01 | DocScrutinizer | however cp -A /scratchbox /SB-backup is surely a good idea if you got the space |
| 20:13.02 | *** join/#maemo Itschue (~Itschue@p57AD24E3.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:13.03 | MoonTiger | i could clonezilla the partition |
| 20:13.14 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: nope that doesn't work |
| 20:13.17 | merlin1991 | tried that :D |
| 20:13.25 | DocScrutinizer | darm, rats!! |
| 20:13.28 | merlin1991 | dies on all the internal weird stuff sb uses fro the emulator |
| 20:13.56 | DocScrutinizer | you mustn't cp while logged in to sb! |
| 20:14.04 | merlin1991 | I did it from outside |
| 20:14.06 | DocScrutinizer | it does nasty bindmount magic |
| 20:14.35 | merlin1991 | but the funniest results I got when trying to git add /scratchbox |
| 20:14.42 | DocScrutinizer | doesn't matter, a mere rm -rf /scratchbox kills your system, when you got sb "started" |
| 20:15.01 | merlin1991 | sb "starts" by default |
| 20:15.04 | merlin1991 | it runs in the bg |
| 20:15.10 | merlin1991 | at least some process does |
| 20:15.16 | DocScrutinizer | not here |
| 20:15.26 | DocScrutinizer | have to do some login or sth |
| 20:15.30 | merlin1991 | yea |
| 20:15.51 | merlin1991 | but I still watch some kind of halting sb worker / whatever msg when shutting down @ the end |
| 20:16.09 | DocScrutinizer | jeeez, that'd be it, SB running by default, from boot |
| 20:16.36 | snappy | I think my sdcard doesn't have a filesystem formatted or a partition, how would I go about doing this in maemo? |
| 20:16.50 | kerio | mkfs? |
| 20:16.53 | merlin1991 | snappy: from the device? |
| 20:16.55 | snappy | yeah |
| 20:17.02 | DocScrutinizer | snappy: filemanager, click-hold ->context menu |
| 20:17.27 | snappy | DocScrutinizer: thanks |
| 20:17.40 | DocScrutinizer | hth |
| 20:17.51 | DocScrutinizer | sometimes it fails, then come back here |
| 20:18.02 | snappy | worked great, formatted and finally mounted. |
| 20:18.09 | DocScrutinizer | \o/ |
| 20:18.22 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: is there a tool to partition on the n900 |
| 20:18.29 | DocScrutinizer | sfdisk |
| 20:18.41 | snappy | ah yes, sfdisk, forgot about that |
| 20:18.46 | DocScrutinizer | though it's not a tool, it's a desease |
| 20:19.06 | DocScrutinizer | I suggest cfdisk |
| 20:19.25 | merlin1991 | last time I did some commandline editing I used fdisk |
| 20:20.00 | merlin1991 | s/editing/partition editing/ |
| 20:20.01 | DocScrutinizer | cfdisk is just "friendly" |
| 20:20.22 | merlin1991 | but sfdisk is all we have on the n900 right? |
| 20:20.28 | DocScrutinizer | while sfdisk is a bitch |
| 20:20.53 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, I got cfdisk, don't ask me where from. Suggest apt-cache search |
| 20:21.11 | merlin1991 | gnu tools? |
| 20:21.14 | DocScrutinizer | prolly |
| 20:21.32 | merlin1991 | there's actually a cfdisk package |
| 20:22.05 | MoonTiger | wow a lot of stuff being installed |
| 20:22.14 | DocScrutinizer | ya bet |
| 20:22.29 | MoonTiger | makes more tea |
| 20:22.32 | merlin1991 | the trickiest thing about sb is to find out where you're supposed to put your damn source |
| 20:22.38 | DocScrutinizer | can I get a cup? |
| 20:22.50 | DocScrutinizer | hehehe |
| 20:23.01 | merlin1991 | I wanted to compile just a hello world and spend 30 mins finding out all the nasty rebinding sb does when switching targets |
| 20:23.32 | MoonTiger | merlin1991, yah |
| 20:23.44 | MoonTiger | the whole sb thing is a bit confusing to me tbh |
| 20:23.47 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:23.55 | merlin1991 | I also didn't get it why sb ships it's own git within sb when you're going to use outside code editor and versioning anyway |
| 20:24.01 | DocScrutinizer | YMMV |
| 20:24.17 | ShadowJK | I'm even more confused when I use a VM to run an OS to run SB |
| 20:24.22 | merlin1991 | (also the git within sb is really old) |
| 20:24.30 | MoonTiger | ShadowJK, tell me about that one :/ |
| 20:24.57 | MoonTiger | dev for android is way easier to start at least |
| 20:25.48 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: there's been sth called MADDE, never looked into it but aiui it's way more "user friendly" |
| 20:26.07 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: only as far as you have no external dependencies |
| 20:26.14 | DocScrutinizer | mhm |
| 20:26.27 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, gather as much |
| 20:26.33 | merlin1991 | if you have them it's more convienent to get into sb and you apt in there |
| 20:26.39 | DocScrutinizer | it's strictly app (Qt?) development |
| 20:26.58 | MoonTiger | not sure about qt |
| 20:26.58 | merlin1991 | it is, but ofc you can get it to accept your libs too :D |
| 20:27.59 | Itschue | hello |
| 20:28.14 | DocScrutinizer | anyway for /scratchbox/users/jr/home/jr/starhash-enabler/debian/changelog or whatever it's for you, you better get a symlink or even bindmount |
| 20:28.48 | merlin1991 | unless you just love it to type long paths into your term |
| 20:29.02 | DocScrutinizer | to /scratchbox/users/jr/home/jr/YourProject actually |
| 20:29.41 | DocScrutinizer | or simply want to use vi in SB native, nuttin else |
| 20:30.14 | merlin1991 | tbh what's your alternative to vi on ubuntu native |
| 20:30.16 | *** join/#maemo Spydemon (~Kevin@crous-robertsau-194-254-53-5.u-strasbg.fr) |
| 20:30.18 | merlin1991 | gedit? |
| 20:30.22 | MoonTiger | whoa! thats done but wtf is that crap about the nokia binaries?? |
| 20:30.37 | DocScrutinizer | but then you probably really should consider developing on N900 instead ;-P |
| 20:30.38 | merlin1991 | the closed bits of maemo |
| 20:30.53 | MoonTiger | *sigh* |
| 20:30.55 | merlin1991 | you need them too |
| 20:31.26 | MoonTiger | so i have to do an apt-get *inside* scratchbox now? |
| 20:31.31 | merlin1991 | yep |
| 20:31.37 | merlin1991 | first edit sources.list |
| 20:31.44 | merlin1991 | and you have todo it for both targets |
| 20:31.45 | MoonTiger | ok ... did i do the last apt-get in sb too? |
| 20:31.58 | Itschue | my n900 shutdown by itself ant wont start |
| 20:32.00 | DocScrutinizer | hehehe, I cloudily recall the pain I felt when doing all that |
| 20:32.02 | *** join/#maemo mirsal (~mirsal@videolan/developer/Mirsal) |
| 20:32.28 | merlin1991 | MoonTiger: everything in the wiki after /scracthbox/login |
| 20:32.29 | DocScrutinizer | recharge then |
| 20:32.29 | MoonTiger | ok in sb now |
| 20:32.32 | merlin1991 | has to be done in sb |
| 20:32.33 | MoonTiger | right |
| 20:32.39 | MoonTiger | got it |
| 20:32.53 | merlin1991 | except for the dns fix, if you need it |
| 20:33.27 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: hint#2 - do a 'mount' in your standard system xterm now, to see what sv really did to your system |
| 20:33.40 | MoonTiger | no! |
| 20:33.42 | MoonTiger | :) |
| 20:33.43 | DocScrutinizer | sb* |
| 20:33.54 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: what did you use todo the starhas enabler? |
| 20:33.55 | MoonTiger | sb_conf not found |
| 20:33.57 | MoonTiger | *sigh* |
| 20:34.13 | merlin1991 | because it's sb-conf |
| 20:34.15 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: nuttin, it's just preinstall and postrm scripts |
| 20:34.16 | MoonTiger | oooops sb-conf |
| 20:34.18 | MoonTiger | ;) |
| 20:34.33 | merlin1991 | damn it |
| 20:34.49 | merlin1991 | maybe you did another package too? :D |
| 20:34.54 | MoonTiger | wtf is it asking me "terminal type" for? |
| 20:35.11 | DocScrutinizer | but of course I used x86-kate to edit those files |
| 20:36.06 | merlin1991 | when I first tried doing something in sb I came from a win / visual studio bg |
| 20:36.19 | DocScrutinizer | reducing inetraction to SB terminal to the bare mandatory minimum |
| 20:36.41 | merlin1991 | I was missing all the comfort an ide gives you |
| 20:36.44 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: haha |
| 20:36.51 | DocScrutinizer | nice scary experience |
| 20:36.52 | merlin1991 | especially when navigating multiple code files |
| 20:37.35 | merlin1991 | the thing I missed most was the go to definition part |
| 20:38.00 | merlin1991 | looking at code from other people that's so handy when you see a function call and wonder wtf that one actually does |
| 20:38.15 | MoonTiger | ummmmm any idea why its asking me for my terminal type? |
| 20:38.25 | merlin1991 | nope |
| 20:38.30 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: keep in mind SB is some kinda chroot, and you should look at it like a black (well gray) box, using your normal tools to edit, copy, whatnot inside that lengthy path |
| 20:38.59 | DocScrutinizer | just kickof a compile run in SB, then go back to your used tools to continue hunting bugs |
| 20:39.04 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: I realized that, and then failed in the attempt to set up a working eclipse environment |
| 20:39.30 | merlin1991 | that's about where I gave up :D |
| 20:40.01 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, I never got eclipse to really work for me as well, sth with git(?) always made me scratch head and give up on it |
| 20:40.53 | DocScrutinizer | that's basically why I refuse to touch that whole crap |
| 20:41.17 | DocScrutinizer | not really fun to use that environment to build anything |
| 20:41.39 | merlin1991 | I wouldn't mind going to a term for sb and git |
| 20:41.57 | *** join/#maemo javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro) |
| 20:42.04 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, but exclipse seemed to madatorily depend on it |
| 20:42.09 | merlin1991 | yea |
| 20:42.28 | merlin1991 | just wanted the code editing helpers from exclipse, but instead got a bunch of errors |
| 20:42.48 | DocScrutinizer | and I had a plain project dir that I never got married to that git over web thing that is meant to contribute to large projects |
| 20:43.12 | merlin1991 | just booted my dev notebook |
| 20:43.18 | merlin1991 | I want to finally finish my project :D |
| 20:43.50 | DocScrutinizer | in fact it's been twinklephone where this eclipse adventure started and ended |
| 20:44.12 | DocScrutinizer | so quite a few years in the past |
| 20:44.43 | merlin1991 | ffs what did ubuntu doo |
| 20:44.52 | merlin1991 | wireless card not recognized again |
| 20:45.12 | DocScrutinizer | pcmcia? |
| 20:45.23 | merlin1991 | nah |
| 20:45.30 | merlin1991 | just a crappy chip |
| 20:45.50 | DocScrutinizer | rmmod && insmod (aka modprobe (-r) ) |
| 20:46.05 | merlin1991 | yea just wondering how the module was called again |
| 20:46.15 | DocScrutinizer | lsmod|less |
| 20:46.31 | MoonTiger | ok so now we download *more* stuff |
| 20:46.36 | DocScrutinizer | err, maybe that doesn't help ;-) |
| 20:46.52 | DocScrutinizer | MoonTiger: yeah, prepare for more to come :-D |
| 20:46.58 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: problem is I don't see the card in lspci |
| 20:47.07 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 20:47.08 | MoonTiger | settles in |
| 20:47.12 | merlin1991 | gets a screwdriver |
| 20:47.20 | MoonTiger | hahaha |
| 20:47.30 | DocScrutinizer | less /var/log/boot |
| 20:47.39 | merlin1991 | empty |
| 20:47.42 | merlin1991 | gotta love ubuntu |
| 20:47.51 | DocScrutinizer | lastbot then, or whatever |
| 20:48.02 | MoonTiger | actually i rather dislike ubuntu as much as windows these days |
| 20:48.09 | DocScrutinizer | or "get a real distro" |
| 20:48.21 | MoonTiger | uses arch |
| 20:48.45 | merlin1991 | I should replace that ubuntu with debian |
| 20:48.50 | merlin1991 | but then I'd loose my sb install! |
| 20:48.55 | DocScrutinizer | ~ubuntu |
| 20:48.55 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, ubuntu is caca from this ass http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3843/18427557718e22857e9rb.jpg |
| 20:49.09 | MoonTiger | lol |
| 20:50.06 | DocScrutinizer | also: http://xkcd.com/424/ |
| 20:50.13 | MoonTiger | so sb is a vm basically |
| 20:50.27 | merlin1991 | that xkcd is a classic :D |
| 20:50.36 | javispedro | MoonTiger: it's more like a ... wait for it .. chroot. |
| 20:51.06 | merlin1991 | only http://xkcd.com/149/ and http://xkcd.com/435/ can reach the one about ubuntu :D |
| 20:51.17 | MoonTiger | javispedro, ahhhhhhh i c |
| 20:51.27 | MoonTiger | the ubuntu one is classic |
| 20:52.04 | MoonTiger | javispedro, but chroot with a diff arch yes? |
| 20:52.41 | javispedro | yes, using qemu "user mode" emulation. |
| 20:52.44 | merlin1991 | btw DocScrutinizer guess where the fcked architect of my notebook desided to put the screw for the dvd drive |
| 20:53.40 | MoonTiger | javispedro, thnx ... it kinda sorta makes a little bit of sense now |
| 20:53.58 | merlin1991 | below the keyboard |
| 20:54.28 | DocScrutinizer | hehe |
| 20:54.56 | DocScrutinizer | well, cya folks |
| 20:55.08 | MoonTiger | bye DocScrutinizer |
| 20:55.13 | MoonTiger | thnx |
| 20:55.34 | DocScrutinizer | yw, hope merlin1991 will help you to get a working SDK |
| 20:55.50 | merlin1991 | hah, opening the back, pulling the wireless card out, and putting it back in brought it back |
| 20:56.29 | MoonTiger | seems to be going ok so far |
| 20:57.06 | *** join/#maemo mikhas (~michael@12.197.88.10) |
| 20:57.09 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: you're _LEAVING_? =) |
| 20:57.41 | DocScrutinizer | meh, I'm trying to check if the big bluebox is still out there |
| 20:58.59 | javispedro | they've moved in to the north pole while you were away. it was misparked |
| 21:02.40 | *** join/#maemo [XeN] (~XeN]@77.185.123.169) |
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| 21:06.45 | MoonTiger | ok well thats done |
| 21:06.51 | MoonTiger | apparently i have sb done |
| 21:07.21 | MoonTiger | so now... do i have to work *inside* sb to edit and compile code? |
| 21:08.00 | lcuk | editing I use my normal user account/editor for |
| 21:08.04 | lcuk | hi MoonTiger btw \o |
| 21:08.11 | MoonTiger | hey lcuk!! :) |
| 21:08.17 | merlin1991 | you go into sb with /scratchbox/login |
| 21:08.23 | lcuk | compilation is done by signing into scratchbox console session |
| 21:08.25 | merlin1991 | and simply compile away |
| 21:08.29 | MoonTiger | just use normal tools but make sure to save into the sb home dir right? |
| 21:08.35 | lcuk | yeah |
| 21:08.49 | MoonTiger | then compile from sb login session |
| 21:08.51 | MoonTiger | got it |
| 21:08.58 | merlin1991 | the FREMANTLEX86 you can run in the emulator |
| 21:09.02 | MoonTiger | right |
| 21:09.07 | merlin1991 | the ARMEL target obviously is for the phone :) |
| 21:09.09 | MoonTiger | xephyr |
| 21:09.14 | merlin1991 | yes xephyr |
| 21:09.15 | MoonTiger | for x86 |
| 21:09.18 | MoonTiger | ok cool |
| 21:09.24 | MoonTiger | goes to install geany |
| 21:09.50 | *** join/#maemo Pathin (~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net) |
| 21:10.25 | MoonTiger | where can i find the cmd lines for compiling? |
| 21:11.25 | *** join/#maemo swc|666 (~x00@unaffiliated/swc666/x-4934821) |
| 21:11.59 | MoonTiger | ok found it all :) |
| 21:12.03 | MoonTiger | thnx for the help guys |
| 21:13.21 | *** join/#maemo Pathin (~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net) |
| 21:15.35 | MoonTiger | ok sweet ... looks good ... thnx again ... off to beddy byes for me now |
| 21:15.39 | MoonTiger | laterz |
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| 21:36.25 | vi___ | hello |
| 21:36.54 | vi___ | are matans extended shortcuts available in the cssu? |
| 21:42.20 | vi___ | anyone? |
| 21:45.53 | licensed | maemo haves any gps navigator like garmin, igo, ndrive.. |
| 21:45.54 | *** join/#maemo eMHa (~mh@HSI-KBW-078-042-037-221.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 21:47.49 | *** join/#maemo hannesw__ (~hannes@178-190-113-59.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:48.18 | licensed | i found ndrive =D i have map licences since my other cellphone |
| 21:50.52 | wam | The reason why a question mark is called "question mark" is because it marks questions. If it happens that you would like to write a question and you forget the question mark, or even worse: append any other punctuation, no sane brain will recognize your sentence as a question. This is the very reason why the question mark was invented and why it is among the very small 255 large character set that's understood all around the world. It is more likely that answe |
| 21:50.52 | wam | rs show up after using the question mark following a question than if not using the question mark at all. |
| 21:51.07 | *** join/#maemo kthomas_vh (~kthomas@64.221.243.154.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:52.14 | wam | So if you have a question and you really would like to receive answers for it, ask yourself if you shouldn't use a question mark to have a better chance to receive answers. |
| 21:53.04 | *** join/#maemo BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) |
| 21:53.06 | wam | But in case you don't want any answers, please be more explicit that your sentence wasn't meant as a question so that I don't have to type all that crap. |
| 21:53.18 | wam | Or even just shut up. |
| 21:53.40 | *** join/#maemo Kilroo (~Kilroo@cpe-174-111-058-051.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 21:56.38 | *** join/#maemo mer_ge (~martin@chello062178156192.9.14.tuwien.teleweb.at) |
| 21:57.53 | jacekowski | wam: it's 127 character set |
| 21:58.06 | wam | even worse |
| 21:58.14 | wam | I was just too lazy to verify that. |
| 21:58.55 | jacekowski | ASCII is 7bit |
| 21:59.36 | *** join/#maemo SmilybOrg (Smily@BSN-61-49-192.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 21:59.37 | *** join/#maemo dailylinux (~test@88.87.48.70) |
| 21:59.51 | wam | jacekowski: if you really want to know, even 5 bits are enough for a "?" |
| 22:00.57 | wam | pretty cheap character. |
| 22:01.51 | *** join/#maemo vi___ (~user@87.114.77.203) |
| 22:03.39 | *** join/#maemo vblazquez (~vic@121.154.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 22:03.57 | *** join/#maemo user (~user@87.114.77.203) |
| 22:04.13 | user | was that aimed at me? |
| 22:05.01 | wam | no |
| 22:05.08 | vi___ | I am trying to enable the keyboard shortcuts detailed in the wiki WRT matan modified hildon desktop. |
| 22:05.48 | vi___ | i want to know if ALL the functionality of MMHD was included in maemo CSSU? |
| 22:06.06 | vi___ | i.e. the global keyboard shortcuts. |
| 22:17.17 | *** join/#maemo MadViking (~user@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe8efb00-63.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 22:24.15 | *** join/#maemo Scifi (c00c4efa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.12.78.250) |
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| 22:28.28 | *** part/#maemo Scifi (c00c4efa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.12.78.250) |
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| 22:29.01 | *** join/#maemo hardaker2 (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 22:32.01 | DocScrutinizer | damn, could somebody tell vi to stay in channel when he's posting some question? |
| 22:33.56 | *** join/#maemo FIQ|n900 (~FIQ@unaffiliated/fiq) |
| 22:34.17 | DocScrutinizer | general advice: don't even think about posting a question when you're not prepared to wait at least 60min for anybody to answer. Or, if it's a question with a short "lifetime" then either clearly announce this, or cancel the question when you're no longer interested in the answer |
| 22:35.35 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: that should be: general advice: you're in irc post && wait && don't feed the trolls |
| 22:35.36 | DocScrutinizer | it's quite rude to let others check to find an answer for your question, just to find you already left the channel |
| 22:36.48 | DocScrutinizer | idly wonders why he /ns info vi__ just yesterday or the day before - generally not a good sign for vi__ |
| 22:38.29 | *** join/#maemo NishanthMenon (~nmenon@nat/ti/x-suvhaqkpktmsdoyu) |
| 22:40.08 | *** join/#maemo gn00b (~gn00b@71-223-124-216.phnx.qwest.net) |
| 22:41.59 | DocScrutinizer | the other extreme: |
| 22:42.09 | DocScrutinizer | looks like this, you know? |
| 22:42.15 | DocScrutinizer | anybody? |
| 22:42.23 | DocScrutinizer | PLZZZZZZZ!!!!eleven!1! |
| 22:42.32 | DocScrutinizer | peoples, you got me? |
| 22:42.54 | *** join/#maemo pcacjr_ (~pcacjr@unaffiliated/pcacjr) |
| 22:42.58 | DocScrutinizer | (sorry, in a grumpy mood) |
| 22:43.04 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer is using !!eineinseinself I think he needs help ;) |
| 22:44.12 | DocScrutinizer | idly wonders if smart_questions link shouldn't go to topic |
| 22:44.22 | DocScrutinizer | ~question |
| 22:44.22 | infobot | rumour has it, question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
| 22:44.30 | DocScrutinizer | seems not enough |
| 22:44.44 | merlin1991 | you'd just provoke "smart questions" about smart questions |
| 22:44.48 | dangergrrl | i think i'm going to have to give up on ./maemo-sdk-install-wizard_5.0.py |
| 22:44.57 | merlin1991 | ouch |
| 22:45.05 | DocScrutinizer | dangergrrl: indeed you should |
| 22:45.06 | merlin1991 | ~maemosdk |
| 22:45.07 | infobot | rumour has it, maemosdk is http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo5_Final_Installation |
| 22:45.11 | dangergrrl | i have scratchbox installed but it's failing installing stuff inside scratchbox |
| 22:45.29 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: we need to add DON'T USE THE GUI INSTALLER to that :D |
| 22:45.40 | merlin1991 | dangergrrl: the nokia binaries? |
| 22:46.01 | DocScrutinizer | it's a wiki :-) I never even tried to use it, so I'm not really qualified to comment |
| 22:46.02 | dangergrrl | this is all free components so far |
| 22:46.52 | dangergrrl | just i'm on an unreliable slow 3g connection and it's aborting and restarting with the tarballs when one file fails |
| 22:47.07 | merlin1991 | ah the fun of the installer |
| 22:47.21 | merlin1991 | tbh the non gui installer seems to be more stable than the gui one |
| 22:47.29 | *** join/#maemo muelli (~muelli@port-4694.pppoe.wtnet.de) |
| 22:47.39 | merlin1991 | whenever someone comes in complaining about sb install he/she used the gui |
| 22:48.01 | dangergrrl | Installing packages on 'FREMANTLE_ARMEL'. |
| 22:48.16 | dangergrrl | it's trying to install like 449 packages |
| 22:48.22 | DocScrutinizer | normal |
| 22:49.24 | dangergrrl | but if one fails and i restart it starts from the rootstrap files again, if it fails again i'll try to follow another method for the rest :) |
| 22:49.31 | DocScrutinizer | the SDK is like 2GB of download volume I guess - at least that's about what it needs on your disk space later |
| 22:50.15 | DocScrutinizer | dangergrrl: the installer script is deprecated (by MohammadAG) just because of that. "No resume" |
| 22:50.46 | dangergrrl | aha |
| 22:51.08 | dangergrrl | well it did install all the scratchbox packages for me, i guess i'll have to start from there |
| 22:51.09 | DocScrutinizer | [2011-05-25 22:04:34] <DocScrutinizer> and, as MohammadAG (?) said: there's no resume, so go thru dl-hell over and over again |
| 22:51.12 | MohammadAG | the GUI one fyi |
| 22:51.30 | *** join/#maemo Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.3.214) |
| 22:51.38 | MohammadAG | the sh ones are fine of course |
| 22:51.45 | MohammadAG | use -c to resume |
| 22:52.02 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: could you fix that wiki page? |
| 22:52.12 | ketas | grrl's |
| 22:52.17 | MohammadAG | not now, in bed :P |
| 22:52.31 | DocScrutinizer | you know what you have to change there, I'm ignorant, otherwise I'd do it |
| 22:52.33 | dangergrrl | ok, i'll get those, thanks, i don't like python anyway :) |
| 22:52.34 | MohammadAG | just noticed the xchat notification while setting alarm |
| 22:52.35 | ketas | fixing wiki pages in bed? |
| 22:52.56 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: night pal |
| 22:53.09 | MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, remember the black/gray thing at the bottom of my screen? |
| 22:53.11 | DocScrutinizer | good luck with your exams |
| 22:53.20 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 22:53.23 | MohammadAG | it spread across the whole screen (bottom) |
| 22:53.31 | DocScrutinizer | eeew |
| 22:53.40 | merlin1991 | pics? |
| 22:53.42 | ketas | panel failure? |
| 22:53.46 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 22:53.48 | ketas | not good |
| 22:53.56 | DocScrutinizer | I suspect a leak in LCD sealing |
| 22:54.03 | MohammadAG | merlin1991, pics don't show it well |
| 22:54.12 | MohammadAG | lemme find the old pic |
| 22:54.20 | MohammadAG | oh nvm, it's on the N8 |
| 22:54.21 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: SLEEP! |
| 22:54.23 | ketas | DocScrutinizer: you mean lc comes out? |
| 22:54.26 | MohammadAG | looks at tinypic |
| 22:54.28 | DocScrutinizer | yup |
| 22:54.34 | ketas | weird |
| 22:54.45 | DocScrutinizer | that's what I'd suspect first |
| 22:54.55 | ketas | your screen runs dry |
| 22:54.57 | ketas | :) |
| 22:55.01 | DocScrutinizer | or oil from touchpanel |
| 22:55.12 | ketas | err what oil |
| 22:55.27 | MohammadAG | the screen had a protector on since day 8! |
| 22:55.31 | DocScrutinizer | afaik and afaicsee it's an oil-separated type of tp |
| 22:56.26 | merlin1991 | protector? eeew |
| 22:56.45 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: a resistive touchpanel has two foils that need to be separated by a tiny space between them |
| 22:56.52 | ketas | i know |
| 22:57.04 | ketas | you mean there's substance there? |
| 22:57.09 | DocScrutinizer | there are ones with separator bumps and air, and those with oil |
| 22:57.10 | ketas | some kind of |
| 22:57.17 | ketas | oh |
| 22:57.25 | ketas | i thought it's bumps only |
| 22:57.27 | *** join/#maemo z4chh (~zach@cpe-24-162-122-138.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 22:57.57 | DocScrutinizer | oil type is way more sensitive and otically better |
| 22:58.01 | DocScrutinizer | optically* |
| 22:58.11 | ketas | i'm wondering what 5800 uses |
| 22:58.44 | ketas | i heard bumps can fail |
| 22:58.50 | ketas | leading to short |
| 22:58.51 | DocScrutinizer | look closely at different angles, if it's an air&bumper type you'll be able to tell by visible bumps |
| 22:59.10 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: indeed |
| 22:59.15 | ketas | bumps then |
| 22:59.24 | ketas | i see pattern |
| 22:59.35 | MohammadAG | night DocScrutinizer, and thanks :) |
| 22:59.41 | DocScrutinizer | o/ |
| 23:00.04 | ketas | or well wait |
| 23:00.17 | ketas | it wasn't that screen that had bumps |
| 23:00.21 | ketas | how about n900? |
| 23:00.39 | ketas | i don't remember |
| 23:01.04 | DocScrutinizer | N900 is an oil type as far as I can tell |
| 23:03.07 | ketas | is that type more resistant (what a pun)? |
| 23:03.28 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, no diff I guess |
| 23:03.56 | DocScrutinizer | but it's for sure one of the most sensitive r-ts I even seen |
| 23:04.24 | DocScrutinizer | you can't do that with bump type r-ts I think |
| 23:04.49 | ketas | better than 5800 one? |
| 23:05.00 | ketas | i might get used n900, then i'll see |
| 23:05.10 | DocScrutinizer | also quite possibly it's more durable as there's no bumps that get worn |
| 23:05.48 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: you can literally operate the N900 ts by the tip of a feather |
| 23:06.00 | DocScrutinizer | (the soft end ;-D ) |
| 23:07.09 | ketas | hmm |
| 23:07.19 | DocScrutinizer | it's like 10 to 20 times more sensible than e.g Samsung Omnia |
| 23:07.36 | DocScrutinizer | (r-ts with bumps) |
| 23:07.42 | ketas | i really don't like capacitive ones |
| 23:07.51 | DocScrutinizer | neither |
| 23:08.12 | ketas | but can't we have both? |
| 23:08.14 | ketas | :P |
| 23:08.19 | ketas | would be interesting! |
| 23:08.32 | DocScrutinizer | meanwhile I missionated 90% of this chan as well ;-D |
| 23:09.09 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: c-ts and r-ts don't work together nicely. The tech requirements are too conflicting |
| 23:09.32 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: what's the c-ts property you miss in r-ts? |
| 23:09.37 | ketas | r on top of c |
| 23:09.56 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: doesn't work, as r-ts is like a shielding |
| 23:10.05 | ketas | whoops |
| 23:10.08 | ketas | right |
| 23:10.12 | ketas | it conducts |
| 23:10.17 | ketas | doh, it's required |
| 23:10.34 | ketas | how about other way round |
| 23:10.51 | DocScrutinizer | might work, but not really good |
| 23:11.03 | ketas | requires flexible c |
| 23:11.06 | DocScrutinizer | ye |
| 23:11.08 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 23:11.09 | ketas | ah, sounds like crap |
| 23:11.23 | cehteh | DocScrutinizer: is the freerunner resistive too? |
| 23:11.34 | ketas | iirc yes |
| 23:11.35 | DocScrutinizer | what for do you need c-ts anyway? |
| 23:11.41 | DocScrutinizer | cehteh: indeed |
| 23:11.49 | cehteh | my apple newton too :P |
| 23:11.50 | ketas | easy swipes |
| 23:11.51 | DocScrutinizer | bump type |
| 23:11.53 | dangergrrl | well, i ride, i like that my n900 works with motorcycle gloves on :) |
| 23:12.12 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: ok, there's no solution for that |
| 23:12.19 | ketas | yes, and it works with a fingernail, with a stylus |
| 23:12.27 | ketas | which is good |
| 23:12.46 | cehteh | dangergrrl: i bet Steves IStore has some motorcycle gloves for capacitative touchscreens too :) |
| 23:12.55 | GAN900 | yawns. |
| 23:13.09 | GAN900 | How's everyone this fine afternoon? |
| 23:13.13 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: to swipe a r-ts, you need a minimum pressure. That's system immanent |
| 23:13.45 | Sicelo | ~nfc |
| 23:13.45 | infobot | somebody said nfc was No Fucking Clue |
| 23:14.58 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: anyway I always found swiping on N900 works just great |
| 23:15.33 | cehteh | well sometimes not *that* good .. and also clicking and stuff, but i think thats rather a software problem |
| 23:15.38 | MohammadAG | well, don't feel tired so I'll sleep in 30 mins |
| 23:15.53 | MohammadAG | the ts is fine |
| 23:15.59 | javispedro | GAN900: How's the afterlife? :) |
| 23:16.02 | DocScrutinizer | definitely |
| 23:16.12 | MohammadAG | modify libhildon to get "faster" scrolling |
| 23:16.26 | GAN900 | javispedro, sunny and pleasantly cool. |
| 23:16.32 | ketas | afterlife? |
| 23:16.40 | ketas | do they have internet there really? |
| 23:16.43 | MohammadAG | you can practically "remove" friction and a list scrolls indifenitly |
| 23:16.44 | cehteh | not faster .. but more consistent registering of clicks, right clicks, double clicks .. |
| 23:16.52 | cehteh | and well 'near' clicks |
| 23:16.53 | ketas | :P |
| 23:16.54 | *** join/#maemo gn00b (~gn00b@71-223-126-247.phnx.qwest.net) |
| 23:17.15 | MohammadAG | Qt's right click sucks |
| 23:17.31 | MohammadAG | you have to hold the exact point you tapped |
| 23:17.40 | MohammadAG | Gtk has some radius/threshold |
| 23:17.42 | cehteh | if you tap on a link in microb and wait for the menu to show up you have to hold your finger very calm |
| 23:17.55 | MohammadAG | that's a software thing yes |
| 23:17.59 | cehteh | MohammadAG: has it? is that configureable? |
| 23:18.08 | cehteh | i would like to increase it |
| 23:18.16 | MohammadAG | cehteh, probably, libhildon is open, so's Qt |
| 23:18.23 | MohammadAG | you just have to find the right place |
| 23:18.41 | cehteh | i hoped for some config entry |
| 23:18.42 | MohammadAG | if it's not libhildon it's definately gtk |
| 23:18.47 | cehteh | yes |
| 23:18.56 | MohammadAG | no, compiled |
| 23:18.57 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: when I swipe with "upside" of my pointing finger's nail, I need like ~10g pressure |
| 23:19.18 | MohammadAG | pressure is in newtons |
| 23:19.24 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 23:19.26 | MohammadAG | is an SI nazi |
| 23:19.27 | DocScrutinizer | pond |
| 23:19.35 | cehteh | for the xorg synaptics driver i made a patch to register a FingerPress .. thats a harder press than just a tap |
| 23:19.40 | cehteh | configureable |
| 23:19.51 | cehteh | used for the trackstick emulation |
| 23:19.53 | MohammadAG | oh, it could also be xorg... |
| 23:20.00 | ketas | DocScrutinizer: of course |
| 23:20.05 | cehteh | prolly nobody uses it because it hardly discoverable :P |
| 23:20.22 | ketas | newtons is apples per minute |
| 23:20.28 | cehteh | (but its in mainline since a few years now :P) |
| 23:20.39 | MohammadAG | ketas, i lol'd |
| 23:21.00 | *** join/#maemo I-C-Wiener_ (~quassel@e176195016.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:21.10 | ketas | uApl/min |
| 23:21.21 | cehteh | i think the pressure (or area) detection on the n900 could be also used for 2 or 3 levels of pressure sensitivity (touch, tap, press) .. no more |
| 23:21.39 | DocScrutinizer | cehteh: I wish synaptics would work for my tp in laptop, recently I can't get it do disable during typing anymore. Hell I can't disable it at all |
| 23:21.58 | MohammadAG | rmmod psmouse |
| 23:22.18 | cehteh | well meanwhile i have a nipple on my laptop and a hardware switch to turn the touchpad off |
| 23:22.18 | DocScrutinizer | hmmmmm |
| 23:22.18 | MohammadAG | s/rmmod/modprobe\ -r/ |
| 23:22.34 | MohammadAG | infobot, read about escaping, please |
| 23:22.41 | cehteh | so my work on the synaptics driver is a bit unmaintained G*G |
| 23:23.11 | DocScrutinizer | infobot is not a shell, she only collects ice shells ;-D |
| 23:23.21 | cehteh | i like the trackpad way more (thats also why i added the emulation to the synaptics driver) |
| 23:23.22 | DocScrutinizer | nice even |
| 23:23.28 | MohammadAG | can't wait for the Microsoft boob mouse device |
| 23:23.31 | SpeedEvil | cehteh: I assume you have no clue how to get the third button on an external IBM keyboard with trackpoint connected over PS2 - to work? |
| 23:23.35 | ketas | boob? |
| 23:23.46 | ketas | boobiemouse |
| 23:24.01 | MohammadAG | they must be planning one with all these nipples on laptops these days |
| 23:24.02 | SpeedEvil | Does it come in a pack of 6? |
| 23:24.05 | DocScrutinizer | o.O |
| 23:24.06 | SpeedEvil | or is it 8. |
| 23:24.15 | cehteh | SpeedEvil: no idea but i guess they extended the ps/2 protocol and send some extra events |
| 23:24.25 | SpeedEvil | How many breasts does a mouse have? |
| 23:24.26 | MohammadAG | SpeedEvil, buy 2 get 1 free |
| 23:24.55 | MohammadAG | one |
| 23:25.02 | ketas | girlfriend six-pack |
| 23:25.11 | SpeedEvil | Ah - mice have 10 nipples. |
| 23:25.16 | MohammadAG | so we've had mice as nipples |
| 23:25.25 | MohammadAG | and mice with balls (that sounds wrong) |
| 23:25.29 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: biologist's rule of thumb: twice the number of an average litter |
| 23:25.30 | ketas | that |
| 23:25.36 | cehteh | slightly unrelated but someone pasted this some days ago on irc: http://www.globalpov.com/images/triple.jpg |
| 23:25.37 | ketas | that's not nipple on laptop |
| 23:25.40 | ketas | it's clit |
| 23:25.42 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 23:25.45 | SpeedEvil | Odd. |
| 23:25.52 | SpeedEvil | Wikipedia says male mice have no nipples. |
| 23:26.12 | MohammadAG | yes, they have balls on the bottom side |
| 23:26.21 | DocScrutinizer | LOL |
| 23:26.26 | cehteh | haha |
| 23:26.35 | ketas | that's why laptops behave so bad sometimes |
| 23:26.39 | ketas | they are girls |
| 23:26.41 | ketas | :P |
| 23:26.58 | javispedro | hates students |
| 23:27.05 | javispedro | well, sometimes. |
| 23:27.12 | DocScrutinizer | cackles |
| 23:27.13 | merlin1991 | I rmember a women == pc link in here |
| 23:27.14 | MohammadAG | cehteh, I can't find that image attractive |
| 23:27.27 | MohammadAG | javispedro, that's racist against me and offends me |
| 23:27.29 | cehteh | i didnt say you should |
| 23:27.30 | GAN900 | javispedro, but they've got nothing but good things to say about you. |
| 23:27.33 | MohammadAG | I demand an apology! |
| 23:27.34 | MohammadAG | :p |
| 23:27.54 | cehteh | MohammadAG: but 3 is better than 1 |
| 23:28.09 | javispedro | GAN900: heh =) |
| 23:28.13 | MohammadAG | cehteh, not sure I've seen women with 1 :P |
| 23:28.58 | ketas | s/with 1// |
| 23:29.12 | DocScrutinizer | there's no mammal with one brest, according to biologist's rule of thumb |
| 23:29.20 | javispedro | heeeeeeello there are women on this channel. |
| 23:29.27 | ketas | where? |
| 23:29.29 | cehteh | MohammadAG: i am pretty sure google image search will find some |
| 23:29.32 | ketas | looks around |
| 23:29.52 | cehteh | http://everythingaboutplasticsurgery.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/mstc.jpg |
| 23:29.59 | DocScrutinizer | ketas: they left when you entered |
| 23:30.05 | cehteh | sfw :P |
| 23:30.19 | ketas | DocScrutinizer: good |
| 23:30.22 | javispedro | cehteh: sfw? where do you work? |
| 23:30.31 | cehteh | home office :) |
| 23:30.36 | ketas | hahaha |
| 23:30.40 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 23:30.54 | *** mode/#maemo [+o javispedro] by ChanServ |
| 23:31.45 | javispedro | ponders for a moment wheter to ban everyone... |
| 23:31.53 | *** mode/#maemo [-o javispedro] by javispedro |
| 23:32.00 | merlin1991 | damn it |
| 23:32.04 | merlin1991 | that'd been fun |
| 23:32.09 | cehteh | including yourself? :) |
| 23:32.15 | MohammadAG | if you banned only yourself that would've had the same effect :p |
| 23:32.23 | cehteh | yeah |
| 23:32.30 | MohammadAG | regardless, /mode +i and /mkick ftw |
| 23:32.38 | cehteh | ok .. lets do something serious .. bbl |
| 23:33.14 | MohammadAG | I never knew javispedro had ops here |
| 23:33.34 | javispedro | didn't either |
| 23:34.01 | javispedro | goes back to grading.. |
| 23:34.16 | MohammadAG | you're a teacher? |
| 23:34.34 | javispedro | No, I TA. |
| 23:34.39 | merlin1991 | he hates students |
| 23:34.43 | merlin1991 | gotta be ateacher :D |
| 23:34.56 | MohammadAG | I thought he hates fellow students :p |
| 23:35.09 | javispedro | MohammadAG: I was a fellow student.. until previous week that is... |
| 23:35.16 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: at university? |
| 23:35.32 | MohammadAG | what's a "TA" btw? |
| 23:35.50 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: yep |
| 23:36.36 | DocScrutinizer | you must be hating students ;-D |
| 23:36.49 | SpeedEvil | Conversion of the Nipple to Hair-Bearing Epithelia by Lowering Bone Morphogenetic Protein Pathway Activity at the Dermal-Epidermal Interface |
| 23:36.50 | SpeedEvil | argh |
| 23:37.12 | javispedro | SpeedEvil: I am seriously starting to consider your channel fsckups are intentional =) |
| 23:37.20 | MohammadAG | you read interesting stuff SpeedEvil |
| 23:39.41 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I was copying and pasting between stuff and hit alt-tab once too many between ctrl-v's. |
| 23:40.42 | GAN900 | SpeedEvil, sure sure. |
| 23:42.02 | DocScrutinizer | GAN900: I gather your lightning reporter intermezzo on #eegoconf is over? So I can remove the special highlight on your nick? |
| 23:42.13 | GAN900 | Yeah |
| 23:42.17 | GAN900 | Conference is done |
| 23:42.27 | *** join/#maemo jonaskoelker (~jonas@213.140.95.59) |
| 23:42.30 | javispedro | ah, and no devices |
| 23:42.31 | GAN900 | Sorry I didn't report anything useful. :P |
| 23:42.39 | javispedro | grabs popcorn and goes to see tmo |
| 23:43.00 | jonaskoelker | Hello all. I have Modest grab my email from my dovecot@home. Modest only alerts me when I have new mail in my inbox. It'd like to have new mails for some other boxes too. How do I get that? |
| 23:43.37 | DocScrutinizer | GAN900: well, when there's nothing usefull to report, what can you do? |
| 23:43.43 | GAN900 | Tried to start a TMO rumor. |
| 23:44.18 | javispedro | GAN900: omg tell me, I have popcorn to spare so far |
| 23:44.53 | DocScrutinizer | jonaskoelker: I doubt modest can do that |
| 23:45.40 | GAN900 | javispedro, tweeted about Something big coming |
| 23:45.48 | javispedro | hahaha |
| 23:45.53 | MohammadAG | only with nokia messaging |
| 23:45.54 | GAN900 | Uploaded a blurrycam of some "devices" to Flickr. |
| 23:46.12 | GAN900 | Qole tweet about them coming for everyone at the conference |
| 23:46.15 | DocScrutinizer | GAN900: BOFH |
| 23:46.43 | GAN900 | Then we uploaded a picture of the buses that came to take us to the Exploratorium last night |
| 23:46.55 | GAN900 | "They've got windows!" |
| 23:47.08 | javispedro | hehe |
| 23:47.11 | DocScrutinizer | wtf exploratorium? |
| 23:47.29 | DocScrutinizer | sounds like abuse by aliens |
| 23:47.49 | javispedro | I bet exploratorium was at least better than that old badtasting-beer factory |
| 23:47.56 | javispedro | hides |
| 23:49.37 | javispedro | if you want to find where the latest trolling is on TMO, just follow the latest posts abill_uk thanked |
| 23:50.09 | *** join/#maemo dangergrrl (~ariana@mf12836d0.tmodns.net) |
| 23:51.26 | MohammadAG | lol |
