| 00:00.10 | tycho | trip0: So what does it run on now |
| 00:00.10 | Proteous | it's not something that can be done with wifi |
| 00:00.10 | Arkenoi | i guess there is nothing that prevents one from using gtk applications on meego, right? except some extra resources to be allocated |
| 00:00.10 | pyther | but I want to cache the satalite location |
| 00:00.12 | pyther | *locations |
| 00:00.19 | pyther | so it can establish a gps connection faster |
| 00:00.22 | Proteous | they are moving |
| 00:00.25 | Proteous | in the sky |
| 00:00.33 | trip0 | tycho, they dropped the hildon desktop and gtk from maemo because Qt is a better toolkit |
| 00:00.45 | trip0 | (i'm assuming) |
| 00:00.59 | Proteous | you are never under the same set of satalites |
| 00:01.06 | tycho | And do you think they will keep doing linux phones in the future |
| 00:01.12 | pyther | Proteous: then what downloads from the net? |
| 00:01.13 | *** join/#maemo bman (~midkniht@h177.144.255.206.cable.pnbl.cablelynx.com) |
| 00:01.17 | tycho | I feel that it ended and started with n900 |
| 00:01.21 | Arkenoi | agps does not seem to use wifi mac data on any nokia phones |
| 00:01.25 | pyther | because I can get a lock if it downloads "something" from the net |
| 00:01.37 | trip0 | Proteous, arent gps satillites geo-stationary? (they don't move, you do) |
| 00:01.45 | *** join/#maemo fenrir_ (fenrir@rintama.info) |
| 00:01.46 | fenrir_ | hey |
| 00:01.49 | jonwil | no, GPS sattelites are not geostationary |
| 00:02.02 | Proteous | no, it looks at the cell towers to make an approximation of your location to make getting a real GPS lock easier |
| 00:02.07 | Proteous | trip0: no |
| 00:02.29 | tycho | how much open source is MeeGo ? |
| 00:02.31 | Arkenoi | it does |
| 00:02.33 | fenrir_ | if you backup with maemos own tool to sdcard does the communication and callendar backup Contacts and sms for example ? |
| 00:02.34 | Proteous | trip0: a geo-stationary orbit only works in certain places |
| 00:03.09 | *** join/#maemo SmilyOrg (Smily@89.142.221.109) |
| 00:03.14 | Arkenoi | but android devices seem to find its position pretty good just by wifi networks available, maemo does not do this trick (nor symbian does) |
| 00:03.21 | pyther | Proteous: so then how do gps devices work that don't have 3G? |
| 00:03.32 | Proteous | you don't need 3g for agps |
| 00:03.33 | sevard | fghjkdhsjahj i cannot find libpcre3 for n810 anywhere :/ |
| 00:03.34 | SpeedEvil | The orbits are geosynchronous - but not geostationary. |
| 00:03.49 | SpeedEvil | They are in a 12 hour orbit - so 24 hours later - you see the same sats |
| 00:03.52 | SpeedEvil | (if you don't move) |
| 00:04.06 | Proteous | geostationary only works at the equator |
| 00:04.20 | SpeedEvil | For nonpowered objects. :) |
| 00:04.27 | Proteous | :) |
| 00:04.29 | pupnik | heh didn't know the period of the north was different than the equator |
| 00:04.33 | fenrir_ | any1 knows ? |
| 00:04.34 | pupnik | 26 hour day? ;) |
| 00:04.51 | trip0 | tycho, meego.com is supposed to be completely open source |
| 00:04.53 | nox- | pupnik, haha |
| 00:05.11 | pupnik | i wonder how europe gets satellite TV, nox- |
| 00:05.26 | nox- | pupnik, geostationary ofc :) |
| 00:05.29 | Proteous | Arkenoi: there are other tech for doing position via wifi by looking at accesspoints around you and referencing a DB of know access points and their locations |
| 00:05.31 | trip0 | of course, sometimes closed drivers are required to get hardware working |
| 00:05.39 | Proteous | some company called skynet or something |
| 00:05.43 | trip0 | but all of meego's middleware/apps are open |
| 00:05.45 | Proteous | google does it too |
| 00:05.54 | pyther | Proteous: so maemo doesn't use agps? |
| 00:05.55 | DocScrutinizer | yawns |
| 00:06.22 | Proteous | pyther: yes it does if you have a connection, but you don't have to use it, just takes longer to get a lock without it |
| 00:06.52 | pupnik | what's that new peer-to-peer phone network called |
| 00:07.02 | SpeedEvil | Vapour. |
| 00:07.07 | tycho | p2p phone network? |
| 00:07.10 | Proteous | aw, I was going to make that joke |
| 00:07.14 | DangerMaus | im a gonna shoot the laptop in a moment it not getting online it was on yesterday no prombs nothing changed |
| 00:07.15 | Proteous | damn you SpeedEvil |
| 00:07.21 | pyther | Proteous: I guess I'm confused because with my gps unit I can download updates to get a lock faster |
| 00:08.04 | Proteous | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS |
| 00:08.28 | SpeedEvil | Woo! |
| 00:08.30 | sevard | uthis is cool |
| 00:08.31 | SpeedEvil | feels famous. |
| 00:08.37 | SpeedEvil | wrote 90% of that page. |
| 00:08.42 | Proteous | nice |
| 00:08.47 | trip0 | lol |
| 00:08.48 | trip0 | gj |
| 00:08.51 | Proteous | so why aren't you ansering these questions! |
| 00:08.57 | Proteous | fffff |
| 00:09.12 | trip0 | famous, yes. lazy, yes |
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| 00:09.14 | SpeedEvil | Proteous: Because I had something more important to do. |
| 00:09.19 | Proteous | sure sure |
| 00:09.32 | pyther | Proteous: so does anything get downloaded from the net? |
| 00:09.34 | SpeedEvil | I did! |
| 00:09.38 | MohammadAG | SpeedEvil, isn't everyone famous in an open source community? |
| 00:09.38 | SpeedEvil | I was picking my nose. |
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| 00:11.42 | Proteous | pyther: ask SpeedEvil :) |
| 00:11.50 | Proteous | or read the wikipedia page... |
| 00:11.53 | GAN900 | MohammadAG, yes. |
| 00:12.44 | MohammadAG | :) |
| 00:12.53 | MohammadAG | wants the symbian keypad sound |
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| 00:13.05 | pyther | Proteous: ok so how do I download the datat fro the assitant server? |
| 00:13.33 | Proteous | I don't belive that the n900 uses the "MS_assisted" part of agps |
| 00:14.59 | pyther | hmm I do know that it connects to my wifi connection and downloads something |
| 00:15.00 | Proteous | so you can't do what you want |
| 00:15.07 | Proteous | even though other GPS devices have the function |
| 00:15.26 | Proteous | but don't take my word for it |
| 00:15.36 | Proteous | I don't know exectly what features the agps on the n900 uses |
| 00:15.46 | Proteous | the internet can probably tell you though |
| 00:15.50 | Proteous | it knows all |
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| 00:21.49 | DocScrutinizer | pyther: google is your friend, and SpeedEvil even more, as he wrote such nice webpage. And if that's still not enough, here's even more: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html |
| 00:22.25 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - that's the link I always give out - it's good stuff - all you need to impleemnte a GPS reciever. |
| 00:22.32 | SpeedEvil | And actually not too hard to read. |
| 00:23.19 | *** join/#maemo Guest96300 (~peetah@cha92-9-82-236-202-86.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:23.35 | SpeedEvil | Well - until you hit the data format descriptors. |
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| 00:24.07 | DocScrutinizer | that's ISI though |
| 00:25.29 | pupnik | Paki intelligence eh |
| 00:26.01 | DocScrutinizer | o.O |
| 00:26.26 | pupnik | bad joke Re ISI |
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| 00:30.58 | jonwil | Give me the dev headers I need and I can really bust things open in all sorts of fun-and-community-benefiting-ways |
| 00:31.13 | jonwil | btw, I am now 99% sure that the Cell Broadcast code in the SMS stack is broken |
| 00:32.51 | jonwil | The issue I have seen is to do with the info_length field in the SMS_GSM_CB_MESSAGE subblock structure |
| 00:33.07 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 00:33.11 | jonwil | The docs say "Value 255 indicates that this parameter should be ignored" |
| 00:33.39 | luke-jr | jonwil: keep in mind that N900 cellmo is DRM'd |
| 00:33.52 | jonwil | Its not the cell modem, its the application stack |
| 00:34.09 | jonwil | There is code in libsms that says "if info_length = 255, <some field in another data structure> = 0, else <some field> = info_length" |
| 00:34.10 | SpeedEvil | DRM? |
| 00:34.38 | Arkenoi | wonders if sim toolkit interface is possible on n900 |
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| 00:35.01 | SpeedEvil | Possible - if nokia coded it - but no. |
| 00:35.22 | SpeedEvil | It depends on the deep bits of the modem supporting it, and they reportedly on't |
| 00:35.51 | jonwil | Then there is other code in libcsd-sms that passes the value from that other data structure up to CSD-SMS as the length of an array |
| 00:36.28 | jonwil | so whats happening is that if the value of info_length is 255 (which it is on the cell broadcast messages I am seeing in my tests), the IncomingCBS signal is being passed an empty array |
| 00:37.10 | SpeedEvil | Odd. |
| 00:37.32 | SpeedEvil | Can you intercept the communication? |
| 00:37.44 | SpeedEvil | Is there anything like iptables/ |
| 00:38.54 | jonwil | There is no way to get into libsms or libcsd-sms directly. I am about to outline all the options (however unlikely they may be) for fixes |
| 00:39.08 | jonwil | There are several options for a fix: 1.Binary patch one byte in libsms.so to solve the problem (not really a practical option for obvious reasons). 2.Hope Nokia can release a fixed binary (wont happen) 3.Hope nokia can release source code to libsms (wont happen) |
| 00:40.00 | jonwil | 4.Write something that clones and replaces just the CBSMS parts of the stack and solves the issue |
| 00:40.07 | jonwil | 5.Clone and replace all of libsms or libcsd-sms or both |
| 00:40.42 | timeless | Arkenoi: nokia didn't implement sim toolkit |
| 00:40.48 | timeless | you could waste resources doing it |
| 00:40.53 | timeless | but ime, that stuff's just crap |
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| 00:41.06 | timeless | and should really just die |
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| 00:42.05 | jonwil | For option #4 to work, I would need to write a totally new daemon just for cell broadcast SMS (and totally new isi interface code and stuff to match) if I cant figure out how to talk to the existing stuff |
| 00:43.07 | SpeedEvil | I don't think you can implement sim toolkit withotu modem-side code |
| 00:43.30 | SpeedEvil | jonwil: Why isbinary patch bad? |
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| 00:43.58 | jonwil | I just dont feel comfortable binary patching a shipping binary |
| 00:44.10 | SpeedEvil | md5sum it first |
| 00:44.22 | jonwil | its not that |
| 00:44.27 | SpeedEvil | I know. |
| 00:44.31 | SpeedEvil | Side effects |
| 00:44.40 | SpeedEvil | And ... |
| 00:44.54 | jonwil | yeah side effects such as messing up what the package manager thinks is installed |
| 00:45.04 | jonwil | hence why I dont want to do it |
| 00:46.09 | jonwil | If I had the dev packages (or reverse engineered function definitions) for the right APIs, I could have Cell Broadcast up and running within a week |
| 00:46.33 | DocScrutinizer | SAT/STK also is really hard to implement on an archotecture like N900, as SAT needs *full* exclusive access to screen and kbd afaik |
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| 00:47.27 | Arkenoi | DocScrutinizer, why? |
| 00:47.27 | SpeedEvil | It just means you need to have a special screen with a picture of a dumbphone on, andmeans of checking you're on top. |
| 00:47.47 | dotCOMmie | I'm trying automate setting of DNS on PPTP. The PPTP server does not provide DNS properly so I usually put in and ip-up.local script |
| 00:47.49 | Arkenoi | timeless, sim toolkit is useful sometimes |
| 00:47.56 | DocScrutinizer | Arkenoi: because that's what SAT is doing |
| 00:48.32 | dotCOMmie | My understanding is that dnsmasq is supposed to poll resolve files and use the last modified one |
| 00:48.54 | dotCOMmie | this doesn't seem to work. Polling and SIGHUP do not update dnsmasq |
| 00:49.03 | dotCOMmie | Am I missing something? |
| 00:49.20 | jonwil | You could kill and restart dnsmasq |
| 00:49.47 | *** join/#maemo Trapp (~Trapp@bw1pool1-13.maysvilleky.net) |
| 00:49.59 | dotCOMmie | Also I can't seem to find the init script. What manages dnsmasq? |
| 00:50.23 | DocScrutinizer | dotCOMmie: have you checked events.d? |
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| 00:51.51 | dotCOMmie | ah |
| 00:52.17 | dotCOMmie | not very familiar with it do you know of the top how to restart a service in event.d? |
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| 00:57.37 | dotCOMmie | hmm restarting doesn't help either |
| 00:58.42 | jonwil | Specifically I would ideally want to have csd-sms-dev, libisi-dev, libisi-glib-dev, libsms-dev, csd-plugin-dev, libsms-utils-dev, and dev headers for the connectivity UI shared libraries (libconnui etc). But if Nokia wont release these headers then I will have to hope someone can help me reverse engineer the needed APIs... |
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| 01:03.08 | jonwil | finding decent tools, resources and tutorials for ARM reverse engineering is much harder than it is for x86 :( |
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| 01:03.33 | SpeedEvil | Write one! |
| 01:04.09 | jonwil | I dont have the skills to come up with such a thing |
| 01:04.18 | jonwil | if I had the skills, I wouldn't need tutorials |
| 01:04.29 | jonwil | if I had tutorials I could get the skills |
| 01:04.31 | SpeedEvil | :) |
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| 01:08.44 | dotCOMmie | Aha! |
| 01:08.55 | dotCOMmie | I got it. Permissions were wrong |
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| 01:09.56 | pupnik | ppl seem to have forgotten, microsoft IS hellspawn |
| 01:11.39 | timeless | err, microsoft is a business |
| 01:11.48 | timeless | part of a business is ensuring a customer base |
| 01:12.11 | timeless | part of that involves providing tools to encourage developers to provide products to fulfill needs of those customers |
| 01:12.16 | timeless | microsoft does this |
| 01:12.26 | timeless | nokia isn't familiar with this "ecosystem" concept |
| 01:12.43 | timeless | (nokia has spent a year trying to evangelize ecosystems but ...) |
| 01:13.20 | pupnik | your point is taken, but MS is hellspawn, for reasons I won't repeat :) |
| 01:14.56 | trip0 | engadget sucks |
| 01:15.17 | trip0 | wtf is an "ecosystem"? |
| 01:15.23 | toggles | for sale: n900, only washed onced, oc'd ever since, send offers. |
| 01:15.34 | SpeedEvil | trip0: It's what trolls grow in. |
| 01:15.44 | trip0 | grr |
| 01:17.18 | trip0 | i think when nokia/google/apple says "ecosystem" they really mean "zoo" |
| 01:17.26 | trip0 | "this is where the lions are kept" |
| 01:17.43 | trip0 | "this is where the monkeys are caged" |
| 01:18.57 | trip0 | "this is where we keep the developers" |
| 01:19.56 | jonwil | ok, it looks like all my work on SMS-CB is not going to advance forward unless Nokia releases some dev packages or unless someone with ARM skills comes forward and can help me reverse engineer the stuff I need |
| 01:20.15 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 01:20.46 | SpeedEvil | Thanks for what progress you've made - at least it's information as to what's possible. |
| 01:20.53 | SpeedEvil | And that it doesn't require modem hacking |
| 01:20.57 | DocScrutinizer | dotCOMmie: stop <service>; start <service> |
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| 01:26.42 | jonwil | Finding people with ARM skills is hard :( |
| 01:27.07 | SpeedEvil | Have you asked over on #edev? |
| 01:28.10 | dotCOMmie | DocScrutinizer: thanks |
| 01:28.14 | jonwil | there is no such channel |
| 01:28.30 | timeless | trip0: an ecosystem is a place which has customers, hardware to host software, a place to provide software for the hardware, and a story for developers to build software for the hardware |
| 01:29.01 | timeless | trip0: the ecosystem can be of varying degrees of openness |
| 01:29.14 | timeless | one could probably describe apple's as the most "closed" |
| 01:29.19 | timeless | (or least open) |
| 01:29.30 | jonwil | #edev doesnt exist |
| 01:29.41 | timeless | historically,, although people wouldn't believe it, microsoft's has been the most open |
| 01:29.57 | SpeedEvil | jonwil: ## |
| 01:30.00 | timeless | you can pick your compiler vendor, your language, your toolkit, ... |
| 01:30.02 | lofty306 | 2 freekin hours to get this bloody lappie to conect to wifi where nothing had changed |
| 01:30.14 | timeless | you can pick your hardware vendor, your form factor, .... |
| 01:30.19 | jonwil | ##edev doesnt exist either |
| 01:30.20 | SpeedEvil | jonwil: no - actually - one # |
| 01:30.32 | jonwil | neither channel exists |
| 01:30.42 | jonwil | now I found it |
| 01:30.51 | timeless | (note that when i say "microsoft", i don't mean winmo, i mean windows proper) |
| 01:31.13 | timeless | android is newer, and is slightly more open than apple, but isn't really particularly open |
| 01:36.16 | nox- | ok looks like my wifi powersaving issue was the ap's fault afterall... |
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| 01:38.49 | pupnik | can you explain a bit nox- ? |
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| 01:38.59 | pupnik | my ap has two settings for that |
| 01:39.51 | nox- | n900 often `missed' beacon frames and then repeatedly sent probe requests, reason was wifi driver bug on the `ap' |
| 01:40.39 | nox- | powersave code was just missing :) |
| 01:41.12 | timeless | heh |
| 01:41.23 | timeless | that'd do it (: |
| 01:41.27 | nox- | indeed :) |
| 01:41.57 | pupnik | achaa |
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| 01:47.19 | nox- | i'll just have to watch if the probe requests reappear for maybe another reason but im pretty sure this was the only problem :) |
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| 01:47.44 | nox- | at least i get less packet loss now too... |
| 01:48.22 | SpeedEvil | Congrats. Did you manage to update the router? |
| 01:48.30 | nox- | yeah |
| 01:49.08 | nox- | router is a freebsd box, applied patch to driver module, reloaded it and restarted hostapd :) |
| 01:49.46 | nox- | (the n900 is the only thing that uses wifi here...) |
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| 02:23.05 | pupnik | Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl! http://i.imgur.com/H9eXa.png :D |
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| 03:05.23 | Ballmerman | Evenin' folks |
| 03:06.04 | Ballmerman | What's in store for maemo/ meego? |
| 03:07.41 | Ballmerman | Windows is a lot easier to code for. |
| 03:10.01 | nox- | hm |
| 03:10.34 | nox- | i get less packet loss now but the `driver reports beacon loss' and probe requests are just back... |
| 03:11.27 | nox- | and again, a traceroute to google's dns stops them |
| 03:11.39 | Ballmerman | Wow... Nokia workers walking out in protest??? What is that? |
| 03:12.04 | nox- | mh? |
| 03:12.12 | nox- | i was talking about a wifi issue... :) |
| 03:13.58 | pupnik | nox-: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=946702#post946702 |
| 03:14.12 | pupnik | :P |
| 03:14.57 | nox- | heh |
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| 03:17.56 | lofty306 | oh geez this usb stick has like 7 parts on it.... |
| 03:18.09 | lofty306 | saandisk is silly |
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| 04:08.40 | GeneralAntilles | laughs at MohammadAG's Thanks! ratio. |
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| 04:09.39 | richardcnkln | hi. i just purchased a nokia n800 and wanted some information on where to start with it |
| 04:11.04 | richardcnkln | anyone on? |
| 04:11.25 | doc|home | the button on the top is the power |
| 04:12.05 | richardcnkln | well yes i figured that. ive been doing some research on the device but all the info on development ive found is at least 2 years old |
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| 04:12.18 | doc|home | richardcnkln: yep, there's been two devices since |
| 04:12.42 | doc|home | still usable, I use mine as an alarm clock/mpd client |
| 04:12.50 | richardcnkln | i was wondering if anyone has finished developing drivers for the graphics accelorator in the device |
| 04:12.55 | richardcnkln | lol |
| 04:13.19 | richardcnkln | well i got it to replace an ipod touch and found it at an obscenely low price on ebay |
| 04:13.36 | GeneralAntilles | NOK is down to $8.84. |
| 04:13.37 | GeneralAntilles | Fools. |
| 04:13.47 | richardcnkln | looked up some vids and tho it looks like its going to take more work to get it to do everything it looks like a much more capable system |
| 04:13.52 | doc|home | who are the fools? sellers or nok? |
| 04:15.12 | GeneralAntilles | doc|home: NOK. |
| 04:15.46 | richardcnkln | well |
| 04:15.58 | richardcnkln | what exactly have they done to be fools |
| 04:16.20 | doc|home | richardcnkln: didn't hear? they're going to use windows rubbish 7 from now on. |
| 04:16.51 | GeneralAntilles | and they're stuffing MeeGo Devices back in the closet. |
| 04:17.06 | doc|home | GeneralAntilles: that for definite now? |
| 04:17.20 | GeneralAntilles | doc|home: well, specifics are uncertain. |
| 04:17.40 | GeneralAntilles | But moving it to a pure R&D project for "future disruptions" sure doesn't sound useful. |
| 04:17.50 | GeneralAntilles | "Welcome to the 770, sans the hope for the future." |
| 04:17.50 | doc|home | yeah |
| 04:19.01 | richardcnkln | yeah i saw the dev sites for meego anbd mer and a fewother projects. its disappointing that they arent going to continue them |
| 04:19.21 | richardcnkln | this windows phone 7 wont last tho |
| 04:19.43 | doc|home | richardcnkln: neither will nokia... |
| 04:19.46 | richardcnkln | they are trying to get into the market where android and iphone are the top dogs |
| 04:19.55 | richardcnkln | it wont work |
| 04:20.03 | richardcnkln | not when they are quite a ways behind them |
| 04:20.14 | richardcnkln | well |
| 04:20.28 | richardcnkln | perhaps nokia is making some poor decisions atm |
| 04:20.34 | GeneralAntilles | MeeGo could've done that. |
| 04:20.53 | GeneralAntilles | If they weren't as agile as a wounded elephant. |
| 04:21.03 | richardcnkln | but they are a solid company with a good reputation |
| 04:21.28 | richardcnkln | i dont see how they could waste that too quickly for them to recognize those mistakes |
| 04:21.37 | richardcnkln | lol |
| 04:21.55 | doc|home | richardcnkln: introducing a microsoft exec is a good way to start... |
| 04:22.02 | richardcnkln | i did a little research on meego |
| 04:22.16 | richardcnkln | if it was developed properly i suppose it could compete with android |
| 04:22.31 | GeneralAntilles | It could beat Android |
| 04:22.36 | richardcnkln | if the google giant wasnt behind android |
| 04:22.38 | GeneralAntilles | More open, more useful |
| 04:22.41 | GeneralAntilles | Better backing |
| 04:22.52 | richardcnkln | but i didnt see any ways in which meego was clearly better than android |
| 04:22.57 | GeneralAntilles | Targeting more market segments, so it'd have a larger ecosystem. |
| 04:23.13 | GeneralAntilles | When your TV, your car, your phone and your laptop all work seamlessly together, well. . . . |
| 04:23.19 | GeneralAntilles | richardcnkln, no? |
| 04:23.23 | GeneralAntilles | How about real toolkits? |
| 04:23.27 | GeneralAntilles | Actually Open Source? |
| 04:23.33 | richardcnkln | true. as a matter of fact isnt bmw still going to use meego |
| 04:23.39 | GeneralAntilles | Not designed to facilitate operator lockdown? |
| 04:23.42 | richardcnkln | i havent seen anything to the contrary |
| 04:23.45 | GeneralAntilles | GM, too, I believe. |
| 04:24.02 | GeneralAntilles | Though I doubt most of their executives have heard Nokia went WP7. |
| 04:24.29 | richardcnkln | that sounds like something someone would have told them |
| 04:24.37 | richardcnkln | and anyways meego being open source |
| 04:25.00 | richardcnkln | its possible it could continue to be developed and perhaps adopted by bmw and gm |
| 04:25.35 | pupnik | Thanks, failop |
| 04:25.38 | GeneralAntilles | And Intel |
| 04:25.39 | GeneralAntilles | and TI |
| 04:25.42 | GeneralAntilles | AMD |
| 04:25.44 | GeneralAntilles | Etc, etc. |
| 04:25.52 | GeneralAntilles | But Nokia leaving is going to slow things down. |
| 04:26.24 | richardcnkln | true |
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| 04:26.54 | richardcnkln | and as for the devices nokia has already put out |
| 04:27.58 | richardcnkln | being such an open device its entirely possible to jump to many other linux distros with further development |
| 04:27.58 | richardcnkln | tho i havent seen many good ones |
| 04:28.16 | GeneralAntilles | Especially not for mobile devices. |
| 04:28.54 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: lol? |
| 04:29.04 | pupnik | would be nice to have one hot ghz-class phone with meego |
| 04:29.12 | pupnik | with 512MB |
| 04:29.19 | luke-jr | "such an open device"⦠a whole 45% open! |
| 04:29.27 | pupnik | :) luke-jr |
| 04:29.31 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: where are the other OS going to get video drivers? |
| 04:29.59 | richardcnkln | most of that dev seems to be going to porting android :( |
| 04:29.59 | richardcnkln | mobile or not. u guys are lucky with the nokia internet tablets |
| 04:29.59 | richardcnkln | with most of the portable devices ive put linux on the big barrier has been the fact that there was no mmu onboard |
| 04:29.59 | richardcnkln | the nokia internet tablets have mmu's |
| 04:30.00 | richardcnkln | not sure i understand that question |
| 04:30.03 | GeneralAntilles | luke-jr: compared to the rest of the market. |
| 04:30.20 | richardcnkln | ive seen debian, web os, and android ported to the internet tablets |
| 04:30.22 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: everything has a MMU now. |
| 04:30.34 | richardcnkln | psp doesnt |
| 04:30.51 | richardcnkln | and only with the ipod touch did ipods have mmu's |
| 04:30.57 | richardcnkln | and palm pilots dont |
| 04:31.53 | richardcnkln | as a matter of fact i believe when the nokia n770 came out it was one of the only portable devices with an mmu |
| 04:34.25 | pupnik | and 800x480 |
| 04:34.40 | richardcnkln | very true |
| 04:34.53 | richardcnkln | the screen on those things still amazes me |
| 04:35.06 | pupnik | ppl didn't believe they were seeing it back then |
| 04:35.17 | richardcnkln | still looks good |
| 04:35.31 | richardcnkln | saw many reviews comparing it to even the current gen ipod touch |
| 04:35.34 | richardcnkln | it is better |
| 04:35.47 | richardcnkln | tho a little slower |
| 04:35.54 | richardcnkln | well |
| 04:35.58 | richardcnkln | the 800 is better |
| 04:36.04 | lofty306 | heh |
| 04:36.08 | richardcnkln | the 770 is a little harder to do stuff |
| 04:36.17 | lofty306 | still carries a 770 sometimes |
| 04:36.24 | richardcnkln | ha |
| 04:36.33 | GeneralAntilles | The 770 hardware is so purty. |
| 04:36.34 | pupnik | 770 does my hi-fi stereo streaming duties now |
| 04:36.36 | richardcnkln | i mean its still kind of cool |
| 04:36.36 | GeneralAntilles | I love the cover. |
| 04:36.44 | lofty306 | but mostly it runs like carman in the truck |
| 04:37.04 | richardcnkln | yeah i still think the 770 looks cooler than the 800 |
| 04:37.11 | lofty306 | yep |
| 04:37.30 | richardcnkln | wish the internals of those things were as modable as the software |
| 04:37.30 | lofty306 | and bounces nicely with the cover on round the cab offroading |
| 04:37.38 | richardcnkln | if only we could drop in a better processor |
| 04:37.42 | richardcnkln | maybe some more ram |
| 04:38.50 | pupnik | as soon as you try rendering websites, your wants go way up |
| 04:38.57 | lofty306 | what i dont like bout the 900 is it got smaller |
| 04:39.11 | *** join/#maemo sid_ (~sid@g225218202.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 04:39.31 | richardcnkln | i really dont have problems rendering websites on the 800 |
| 04:39.43 | nox- | Temple1 flyby coverage on nasatv |
| 04:39.50 | nox- | (ot :) |
| 04:39.53 | richardcnkln | tho ive only had it for a few days it seems to run just as well as the ipod touch |
| 04:40.03 | richardcnkln | a little more jerky when scrolling |
| 04:40.11 | richardcnkln | but the page still looks good |
| 04:40.14 | richardcnkln | better in fact |
| 04:40.58 | lofty306 | which one? |
| 04:41.14 | richardcnkln | im running a nokia n800 |
| 04:41.26 | richardcnkln | just bought it |
| 04:41.28 | lofty306 | i still want one of them |
| 04:41.35 | richardcnkln | 50 bucks on ebay |
| 04:41.39 | lofty306 | heh |
| 04:41.54 | richardcnkln | yeah its ridiculous |
| 04:42.14 | lofty306 | thats even les s than i got the 770 for |
| 04:42.44 | richardcnkln | i saw a 770 with a buy it now price of 35 dollars |
| 04:42.59 | richardcnkln | the 810 is quite a bit more expensive |
| 04:43.18 | richardcnkln | but when i did the research the functionality of the units didnt looks different |
| 04:43.23 | richardcnkln | same speed and memory |
| 04:43.32 | richardcnkln | just with a keyboard on the 810 |
| 04:43.48 | lofty306 | err that is the one i want |
| 04:44.04 | richardcnkln | well |
| 04:44.11 | richardcnkln | thats like 120 |
| 04:44.23 | wmarone | the 770 and 810 have different processors |
| 04:44.33 | richardcnkln | tho i saw a few listings on the maemo talk boards u could check out |
| 04:44.47 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: 770 was not the first internet tablet. |
| 04:44.48 | richardcnkln | yes i was reffering to the 810 and the 800 |
| 04:44.59 | luke-jr | your MMU-less devices were never really meant to be computers |
| 04:45.05 | richardcnkln | the 770 is a 250mhz processor right? |
| 04:45.06 | luke-jr | just like portable microwaves |
| 04:45.20 | luke-jr | 770 was a joke IMO |
| 04:45.24 | pupnik | crazy that a 25mhz processor used to be a 'workstation' (NeXT) |
| 04:45.32 | luke-jr | even when it was announced, it was below spec |
| 04:45.44 | richardcnkln | well for desktops a 250mhz processor used to be great |
| 04:45.53 | richardcnkln | go find one and run windows 98 on it |
| 04:46.02 | richardcnkln | it speeds through stuff perfectly fine |
| 04:46.06 | richardcnkln | unless u open internet |
| 04:46.17 | pupnik | it's those damn websites |
| 04:46.19 | richardcnkln | the future kind of hit those things hard :) |
| 04:46.28 | pupnik | the internet turned into a bloated sack of protoplasm |
| 04:46.30 | luke-jr | it's abstraction |
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| 04:47.02 | richardcnkln | i used to tell people that an old p4 computer would be perfectly fine to suite their needs if they didnt play games |
| 04:47.03 | richardcnkln | now |
| 04:47.06 | luke-jr | I used to run Gentoo on 800 MHz :p |
| 04:47.17 | richardcnkln | the internet is a hog for processor and memory |
| 04:47.21 | ds3 | the old P4 is sufficient |
| 04:47.26 | lofty306 | gentoo on a 200mmx |
| 04:47.29 | luke-jr | no, P4 sucked |
| 04:47.32 | luke-jr | P3 may be sufficient |
| 04:47.33 | luke-jr | but not P4 |
| 04:47.34 | richardcnkln | i give u respect for running gentoo on anything |
| 04:47.42 | lofty306 | but not anymore |
| 04:47.46 | ds3 | an old 500MHz mobile celery was more then enough |
| 04:47.47 | richardcnkln | u got to mean the other way around |
| 04:47.54 | richardcnkln | p3 was 500mhz to 1ghz |
| 04:47.55 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: now I run Gentoo on i5-2400, N810, and N900 |
| 04:48.05 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: P3 at 1 GHz was faster than P4 at 2 GHz |
| 04:48.15 | richardcnkln | and p4 was 1ghz to, i believe, 2.8ghz |
| 04:48.28 | luke-jr | yes, but P4 "GHz" were SLOW |
| 04:48.32 | richardcnkln | hows that n810 run gentoo? |
| 04:48.44 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: slonopotamus and I ported it |
| 04:48.54 | luke-jr | requires a microSD for disk space ofc |
| 04:48.56 | richardcnkln | i mean is the performance good |
| 04:49.00 | luke-jr | not really |
| 04:49.05 | richardcnkln | compared to the included maemo |
| 04:49.06 | luke-jr | the biggest problem is lack of RAM |
| 04:49.07 | richardcnkln | yeah |
| 04:49.14 | richardcnkln | try dsl |
| 04:49.20 | richardcnkln | damn small linuz |
| 04:49.26 | lofty306 | or puppy |
| 04:49.46 | richardcnkln | yeah that would work too |
| 04:49.59 | richardcnkln | but DSL will run on the included sd card :) |
| 04:50.04 | richardcnkln | its like 50mb |
| 04:51.35 | *** join/#maemo MadViking (~user@dsl-roibrasgw1-ff96c100-143.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 04:51.58 | lofty306 | did they ever get the BT/ketboard stuff fixed wwith the 900? i havent been able to liiink up to my kb for a long long timee havent tried in a long tiime |
| 04:52.19 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: DSL is crap |
| 04:52.34 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: but KDE barely loads in the 128 MB RAM |
| 04:52.44 | luke-jr | so I ended up using console mode most of the time |
| 04:52.45 | richardcnkln | it is expandable just like any other linux |
| 04:52.55 | luke-jr | KDE is KDE on Gentoo or DSL |
| 04:53.03 | luke-jr | DSL won't make it run any better |
| 04:53.19 | lofty306 | christ that pig |
| 04:53.20 | richardcnkln | um i believe that dls uses a completelydifferent gui than kde or gnome |
| 04:53.28 | richardcnkln | dont remember which let me look |
| 04:53.38 | luke-jr | also, unlike N900, N810 is too closed for another OS to really run right |
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| 04:55.09 | ds3 | what OS would you want to run? |
| 04:55.34 | ds3 | KDE is not exactly designed for a TS |
| 04:56.12 | luke-jr | Gentoo KDE/GNU/Linux |
| 04:56.26 | richardcnkln | hmm thats an interesting question. i get those os's to run just for the sake of tinkering |
| 04:56.32 | richardcnkln | none of them really work right |
| 04:56.38 | luke-jr | TS can be mouse position, and a button for clicks |
| 04:56.43 | richardcnkln | but if i had to choose it would be maemo |
| 04:56.50 | ds3 | there aren't many OS"s really designed for TS's w/o keyboards |
| 04:57.00 | luke-jr | N810 and N900 have keyboards |
| 04:57.01 | richardcnkln | or if i could get it to run right id love to have a tiny windows 98 tablet :) |
| 04:57.19 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: btw, did you ever hear of the Zaurus SL-C* line? |
| 04:57.23 | lofty306 | haha |
| 04:57.30 | richardcnkln | saw those |
| 04:57.33 | ds3 | richardcnkln: go further back and make a Win 3.x tablet |
| 04:57.37 | ds3 | aka windows for pen computing |
| 04:57.38 | richardcnkln | they do lok cool |
| 04:57.49 | richardcnkln | i couldnt find one for sale at a reasonable price |
| 04:57.57 | ds3 | the Z's are nice |
| 04:58.02 | richardcnkln | i have windows 3.1 running on my sony psp |
| 04:58.07 | richardcnkln | with dosbox |
| 04:58.24 | richardcnkln | runs well but honestly what can u do with 3.1 |
| 04:58.32 | pupnik | i drag puppies behind my car |
| 04:58.38 | pupnik | :) |
| 04:58.42 | richardcnkln | if u like the zaurus line u should look at the fujitsu tablets |
| 04:58.53 | richardcnkln | full pc's basically |
| 04:58.58 | ds3 | The stylistic line? |
| 04:59.06 | richardcnkln | the fujitsu c500 came loaded with windows 2000 |
| 04:59.08 | richardcnkln | ya |
| 04:59.19 | ds3 | pupnik: one at a time or an entire liter? ;) |
| 04:59.24 | richardcnkln | saw one on ebay close out at 95 bucks |
| 04:59.42 | ds3 | you can get a Stylistic S1000 for $25 |
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| 05:00.32 | richardcnkln | where? |
| 05:00.43 | richardcnkln | havent seen that one |
| 05:01.26 | ds3 | I'll sell you one for $35 + shipping (to cover my tax/shipping costs) =) |
| 05:01.34 | ds3 | been on the market for a while |
| 05:02.01 | richardcnkln | let me go look up the specs and i may take u up on that |
| 05:02.46 | ds3 | it is a 486DX4-100 |
| 05:02.58 | richardcnkln | ha |
| 05:03.03 | ds3 | RF pen; PCMCIA HD and extra PCMCIA slots |
| 05:03.05 | richardcnkln | well as cool as that would be |
| 05:03.13 | lofty306 | http://www.fpc.fujitsu.com/www/content/products/Tablet-PCS/History/tablet-pc-history_18.php |
| 05:03.13 | richardcnkln | to just play with |
| 05:03.24 | richardcnkln | i dont think i have money i can just throw at that |
| 05:03.34 | ds3 | it is a nice little machine; probally on the order of a 770 |
| 05:03.58 | ds3 | I have a spare one since one vendor was selling the car charger version for $25 |
| 05:04.14 | ds3 | it is there if you wanna plan with it =) |
| 05:04.20 | richardcnkln | i cant believe something like that came out in 1996 |
| 05:04.32 | pupnik | ds3: actually i've seen people walking their dogs with their cars before - twice |
| 05:04.35 | ds3 | they are nice but $$$$ new |
| 05:04.36 | richardcnkln | must have been pretty futuristic to see back then |
| 05:05.00 | ds3 | pupnik: at 60mph? shouldn't that be walking their cheataus? |
| 05:05.08 | lofty306 | pupnik, that workss till you forget the dog is there |
| 05:05.15 | pupnik | lazy bums |
| 05:05.43 | richardcnkln | sorry |
| 05:05.46 | richardcnkln | its close |
| 05:05.57 | richardcnkln | but nopt quite fast enough to do anything interesting with |
| 05:06.04 | lofty306 | i've walked horses with a p-up but sombody is onthe taillgate holding the leash |
| 05:06.18 | richardcnkln | would prolly have a hard time even getting it to play music |
| 05:06.59 | *** join/#maemo Natunen (nalle@213-186-248-75.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 05:07.52 | richardcnkln | i never did get an answer to my original question. did they ever get the power vbr graphics chip drivers for the n800 and n810 |
| 05:08.22 | richardcnkln | if i could get that thing running this tablet would be a lot cooler |
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| 05:09.57 | ds3 | depends on your needs; tablets have lots of uses |
| 05:10.38 | *** join/#maemo pcacjr (~pcacjr@187.112.14.165) |
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| 05:13.10 | pupnik | tablet makes a nice thing on the side of the pc/laptop to let music/videos run on |
| 05:13.20 | pupnik | especially the archos 7.0 with built-in stand |
| 05:13.29 | pupnik | still haven't got meego on it tho |
| 05:13.56 | richardcnkln | ha the archos |
| 05:14.02 | richardcnkln | with the crippled marketplace |
| 05:14.30 | richardcnkln | tho if u wanted one of those did u know archos just released an internet table for less than 100 bucks |
| 05:14.36 | richardcnkln | look ath the archos 28 |
| 05:14.47 | pupnik | how big is it |
| 05:15.19 | richardcnkln | alot smaller than u would want |
| 05:15.28 | pupnik | yeah but it's a nice price |
| 05:15.36 | richardcnkln | 2.8 inches |
| 05:16.16 | ds3 | other apps besides media playing |
| 05:16.21 | ds3 | and android blows chunks |
| 05:18.07 | lofty306 | hmmm n900 then a tablet to replace the netbook for coontent you actualy have to read |
| 05:18.25 | ds3 | yes!! |
| 05:18.32 | luke-jr | richardcnkln: back in the day they were new, $800 was pretty reasonable for a Zaurus :P |
| 05:18.43 | ds3 | but finding a decent OS for the tablet is tricky |
| 05:18.58 | luke-jr | lofty306: integrated projector <.< |
| 05:19.20 | ds3 | the N900 really needs a bigger battery though |
| 05:19.28 | lofty306 | hehe |
| 05:19.56 | lofty306 | i just turn off 3g whem im not actually using it and the batt is thee for days |
| 05:20.26 | luke-jr | lofty306: me too, but that drastically kills usefulness |
| 05:20.39 | lofty306 | not in my pocket |
| 05:20.41 | luke-jr | half the point is to be on IM 24/7 anywhere |
| 05:20.51 | lofty306 | heh |
| 05:21.09 | ds3 | Mapper + GPS + GSM only seems to last less then 12 hours on a charge |
| 05:21.11 | lofty306 | it ended for me when it kept waking me up at all hours |
| 05:22.43 | richardcnkln | what are the internal specs for the n900? |
| 05:22.56 | richardcnkln | ive only got a lowly n800 |
| 05:23.36 | lofty306 | well when they have induction chargers everywhere adn everything charges that way or they extend the range of induction charging we'' be set |
| 05:23.48 | lofty306 | we'll |
| 05:24.25 | richardcnkln | induction charging is so innefficient |
| 05:24.25 | lofty306 | http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ |
| 05:24.39 | lofty306 | better for cooking |
| 05:24.52 | richardcnkln | nichola tesla already had it down in the early 1900's |
| 05:24.59 | ds3 | better to have dedicated charger ports |
| 05:25.28 | lofty306 | one of thease days i'll drop my sisters isomething on the induction cooktop and see if it explodess |
| 05:25.55 | lofty306 | its realy old tech |
| 05:26.31 | lofty306 | haha |
| 05:26.48 | Sazpaimon | [00:24] <lofty306> http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ |
| 05:26.49 | ds3 | or prehaps refillable direct ethanol fuel cells |
| 05:26.57 | Sazpaimon | maemo.nokia.com still exists? |
| 05:27.01 | Sazpaimon | after all these years |
| 05:27.07 | Sazpaimon | that's comical |
| 05:27.36 | lofty306 | i thought so when it popped up first for specs |
| 05:28.01 | Sazpaimon | more money went into maemo.nokia.com than any advertising for the n900 at all |
| 05:28.22 | lofty306 | thought it was comical i mean |
| 05:28.48 | pupnik | ds3: i agree, i was a heavy user and went through 2-3 batteries a day |
| 05:29.00 | lofty306 | yeah nokia dont seem to advertise too much anything |
| 05:29.36 | lofty306 | i go through the n900 in a few hours it lives on the charger at work |
| 05:29.43 | pupnik | and it really looks like there was space for a bp-4l with 1500mAh |
| 05:29.46 | Sazpaimon | honestly they could have made a commercial with penguins shooting lasers from their eyes |
| 05:29.55 | Sazpaimon | and just showed the N900 at the very last second |
| 05:29.56 | ds3 | pupnik: I tried out a Borohydride cell this weekend and it was disappointing for the volume |
| 05:29.57 | luke-jr | ds3: lol? GSM alone lasts only 4 hours at best |
| 05:29.57 | luke-jr | add GPS and you're probably down to 1-2 hours |
| 05:30.01 | Sazpaimon | i would have bought it in an instant |
| 05:30.12 | ds3 | luke-jr: I keep the screen off. |
| 05:30.14 | lofty306 | hah |
| 05:30.21 | luke-jr | ds3: so do I |
| 05:30.31 | lofty306 | ass do i |
| 05:30.45 | luke-jr | Sazpaimon: of course, everyone would buy one if Nokia spent more money false advertising |
| 05:31.21 | pupnik | do you think a 4-row keyboard would have made it too top-heavy? |
| 05:31.28 | luke-jr | actually, N900 would probably be considered awesome by the average idiot, if it worked like it claimed |
| 05:31.28 | ds3 | luke-jr: I guess I shouldn't complain too much. I was logging a multiday train trip and was seeing about 10-12 hours |
| 05:31.32 | lofty306 | hmm its about to die only using it like 7h today no calls |
| 05:31.32 | luke-jr | despite being non-free |
| 05:31.45 | jonwil | cool, I found code for maemosec* libraries |
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| 05:32.12 | pupnik | the mechanics are so top-notch... slide mechanism never seems to wear out |
| 05:32.20 | Sazpaimon | luke-jr, the average idiot would hate the n900 |
| 05:32.35 | Sazpaimon | since it was built around power users like you and I |
| 05:32.41 | ds3 | it needs a DPAD |
| 05:32.45 | lofty306 | it would be not shiny ensfgh for them |
| 05:32.48 | luke-jr | Sazpaimon: and the dedicated nerd hates it too. yet people like it, supposedly |
| 05:32.55 | lofty306 | enough* |
| 05:32.59 | ds3 | what would be nice to see is getting Maemo running on the Motorola Droid HW |
| 05:33.06 | ds3 | it should be pretty close HW wise |
| 05:33.14 | pupnik | i haven't missed a dpad at all |
| 05:33.15 | luke-jr | ds3: LOL, hw is the *only* thing I care about |
| 05:33.30 | krayon | ds3: I have a game gripper for mine, works OK |
| 05:33.33 | luke-jr | ds3: anyhow, keep dreaming |
| 05:33.39 | Sazpaimon | why has nobody bothered porting maemo to other devices? is it because the UI is closed? |
| 05:33.40 | ds3 | pupnik: what software do you mostly run on the N900? |
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| 05:33.46 | luke-jr | Sazpaimon: because Maemo is not open source |
| 05:33.53 | pupnik | too much to list |
| 05:34.00 | krayon | ds3: http://meegoarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/n900snes.jpg |
| 05:34.03 | ds3 | luke-jr: a nice GSM droid hw w/Maemo UI should work quite nicely |
| 05:34.03 | Sazpaimon | i thought maemo had a code repository |
| 05:34.07 | pupnik | what do you use a dpad for ds3 ? |
| 05:34.26 | luke-jr | Sazpaimon: 45% of it is free software. I wonder what % of Mac OS X is free? |
| 05:34.29 | ds3 | pupnik: Mapper uses it quite nicely |
| 05:34.37 | pupnik | the 4-way arrow keys work fine for me |
| 05:34.56 | ds3 | pupnik: I want the arrows to be exposed with the kb closed |
| 05:35.32 | lofty306 | lol |
| 05:35.34 | Sazpaimon | luke-jr, I was under the impression that the OS itself was open, my mistake |
| 05:35.38 | ds3 | pupnik: I have it in a mount in a vehicle |
| 05:35.43 | jonwil | Good luck getting Maemo or MeeGo running on the Motorola Milestone |
| 05:35.53 | jonwil | They havent even gotten a kernel to boot except maybe via kexec |
| 05:35.58 | jonwil | thanks to the bootloader locks |
| 05:36.02 | luke-jr | Sazpaimon: MeeGo was "supposed" to fix that. |
| 05:36.09 | ds3 | krayon: who makes that? |
| 05:36.23 | jonwil | Motorola are one of the least open cellphone companies |
| 05:36.45 | luke-jr | jonwil: get a Linux developer to sue :p |
| 05:36.52 | ds3 | early Droids were relatively unlocked |
| 05:36.58 | lofty306 | it was haard to even get source outta motorola when they had to release it |
| 05:37.03 | jonwil | kernel is GPLv2 |
| 05:37.06 | Sazpaimon | luke-jr, MeeGo DOES fix that alread i believe. The majority of the core code is open |
| 05:37.16 | jonwil | so they dont have to let you use new kernels |
| 05:37.26 | luke-jr | jonwil: GPLv2 defines "source code" such that it includes signing keys. GPLv3 adds an exception for non-required keys |
| 05:37.47 | luke-jr | therefore, if they don't release the signing key, it's infringement |
| 05:38.21 | Sazpaimon | I'm sure nokia's UX would have been closed source anyway |
| 05:38.24 | krayon | ds3: Some guy. I purchased it from his Google store... sadly there's a flash website now ( http://www.game-gripper.com/ ) but the old store is still available ( http://sites.google.com/site/gamegripper/ ) |
| 05:39.04 | krayon | ds3: Not bad for $15 US. |
| 05:39.06 | pupnik | ds3: you know what might be better for such stuff - one of those track-sensors on the face - takes up no space and isn't visually obtrusive |
| 05:39.18 | krayon | ds3: But still has to have the keyboard open so no good for you if you want it shut :P |
| 05:39.38 | jonwil | so how come we haven't seen kernel devs going after people to get signing keys and unlocked hardware? |
| 05:41.24 | ds3 | Krayon: oh, it is mechanical, not electrical interface? |
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| 05:41.53 | krayon | ds3: Yeah it fits over the keys and presses them :/ |
| 05:41.54 | ds3 | pupnik: there is the front camera |
| 05:42.10 | krayon | ds3: Having said that, any of the cheap bluetooth keyboards on ebay could be used. |
| 05:42.14 | jonwil | as of right now there are 9 bits of closed source code in meego-on-n900 |
| 05:42.50 | krayon | ds3: There's some pretty cheap teeny tiny ones. |
| 05:42.52 | ds3 | krayon: that's another thing to charge |
| 05:43.02 | ds3 | I have a tiny one from the 800 days |
| 05:43.06 | jonwil | make that 10 or so |
| 05:43.13 | jonwil | bme,libbmeipc,libcal,some pulseaudio bits,sysinfod,the sgx drivers,wifi firmware,bluetooth firmware,wl1251-cal plus the cellmo firmware |
| 05:43.40 | jonwil | there is more that will likely appear before the meego-on-n900 work is finished though |
| 05:43.41 | jonwil | like GPS |
| 05:43.45 | jonwil | and camera |
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| 05:44.35 | dm8tbr | I remember reading yesterday that someone got GPS working under MeeGo |
| 05:45.59 | jonwil | I know Nokia have said they are simply going to port the Maemo GPS stack to MeeGo (which would then remain closed source) as the easiest way to get GPS up and running |
| 05:46.03 | jonwil | with the least amount of work |
| 05:46.26 | jonwil | they may also have legitimate reasons to want to keep GPS closed (specifically the stuff to do with AGPS and talking to the noika AGPS server) |
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| 05:47.04 | dotblank | I don't think its specific within nokia |
| 05:47.07 | dotblank | for apgps |
| 05:47.08 | lofty306 | geez |
| 05:47.15 | dotblank | because you can replace the server with googles one |
| 05:47.58 | luke-jr | jonwil: the same reason kernel devs are too scared to go after nvidia |
| 05:48.05 | luke-jr | jonwil: they're cowards :P |
| 05:48.53 | luke-jr | jonwil: I reverse engineered the N900 GPS stuff a long time ago |
| 05:49.11 | jonwil | not AGPS |
| 05:49.15 | luke-jr | also, there is no such thing as a legitimate reason to keep stuff closed |
| 05:49.28 | luke-jr | N900 AGPS was just this year released in public docs ⺠|
| 05:49.38 | jonwil | what public docs? |
| 05:50.33 | luke-jr | dunno, ask in #meego-arm |
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| 05:58.20 | ieatlint | ok, it's late and i'm tired... someone sanity check this for me: int x=0; x^=1; x == 1 then x^=1; x==0;? |
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| 06:33.19 | jacekowski | jonwil: nokia agps servers are standard agps servers |
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| 06:33.27 | jonwil | ok |
| 06:33.28 | jacekowski | jonwil: just delivering quick fix data over http i believe |
| 06:33.38 | jacekowski | nothing fancy |
| 06:34.25 | jacekowski | ieatlint: what? |
| 06:35.41 | ieatlint | to toggle x between 0 and 1... int xor 1 can be used right? |
| 06:35.47 | jacekowski | yes |
| 06:36.02 | jacekowski | but it will only work if you know previous value of 0 |
| 06:36.03 | jacekowski | x |
| 06:36.28 | slonopotamus | x = !x, no? :) |
| 06:36.53 | ieatlint | yeah, x = !x works, but it's logical |
| 06:37.09 | ieatlint | and apparently java gets very upset with me for trying to do a logical not operation on a char |
| 06:37.29 | ieatlint | (and yes, there is a good reason i'm using a char and not a boolean) |
| 06:37.42 | jacekowski | try unsigned char |
| 06:37.59 | slonopotamus | jacekowski: he said java. no unsigned types there |
| 06:38.14 | ieatlint | "The operator ! is undefined for the argument type(s) char" |
| 06:38.19 | ieatlint | yeah |
| 06:38.24 | ieatlint | i feel dirty |
| 06:38.26 | ieatlint | java bad |
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| 06:39.59 | slonopotamus | ieatlint: x = ( x == 0 ) ? 1 : 0 |
| 06:40.11 | slonopotamus | and add a cast if required |
| 06:40.58 | ieatlint | yeah, that's another option, but without being an over-optimisation weenie, that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations |
| 06:41.02 | RST38h | slono: x=!x; will do |
| 06:41.17 | slonopotamus | RST38h: java, x is a char |
| 06:41.20 | ieatlint | repeating those in order to do the tests is bleh, especially when memory serves me that an xor can handle it |
| 06:41.23 | RST38h | ah shit |
| 06:41.27 | RST38h | java... |
| 06:41.30 | ieatlint | yeah :( |
| 06:41.32 | ieatlint | java :( |
| 06:41.58 | slonopotamus | ieatlint: "that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations" wut? |
| 06:43.04 | ieatlint | slonopotamus: bitStream[ ( i + x ) - offset ] |
| 06:43.21 | ieatlint | repeating that to do the test... eh.. if there's a better way, i'll go with it |
| 06:43.41 | slonopotamus | ieatlint: those who care about performance, do not use java :) |
| 06:44.12 | ieatlint | indeed... and there's a reason i've never touched java before yesterday |
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| 06:44.23 | slonopotamus | ieatlint: and don't forget about premature optimization |
| 06:44.44 | ieatlint | yeah, that was my comment about being an over-optimisation weenie... |
| 06:45.53 | slonopotamus | ieatlint: however, java has JIT that is capable of doing nice optimization tricks. so just write your code :) |
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| 06:46.25 | ieatlint | i'm a c guy.. that is how i normally write code :P |
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| 07:24.56 | dotblank | https://picasaweb.google.com/meetmeego/MobileWorldCongress2011# |
| 07:25.01 | dotblank | very cool |
| 07:25.10 | dotblank | Thank god there is still intel |
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| 07:26.44 | ieatlint | heh, we'll see... the meego conference is supposed to be in about 3 months, and the registration and cfp have been pushed back again... if they cancel the conference, meego is dead... if they don't... well, we'll see |
| 07:27.34 | MohammadAG | morning |
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| 07:29.36 | ieatlint | pressing story |
| 07:29.45 | ieatlint | bleh, damnit |
| 07:29.55 | ieatlint | stupid touchpad clicking |
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| 07:49.02 | smhar | I have made a backup using the backup app in N900 and the file is 13mb -only- . I have around 700 contacts and loads of sms, is this size correct or is the backup missing something? |
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| 07:57.07 | ruskie | smhar, well did you check all the options? |
| 07:57.29 | ruskie | also 700 contacts and smses that are limited to 180 chars doesn't really seem that odd |
| 07:58.49 | smhar | ruskie, yes, I checked all the options. I am planning to upgrade to PR1.3 and I want to make sure I have a full backup, just in case. I am note sure if the Backup app covers everything |
| 07:59.12 | ruskie | depends on what you mean by everything ;) |
| 08:00.29 | smhar | I do not know, I am copying all the ebooks manually, what else? will copying /home cover all? |
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| 08:03.57 | ruskie | hmm... /home/user should... but watch out for MyDocs that is huge... |
| 08:04.13 | ruskie | the stuff in /home/opt should be encoded for reinstall in case of issues |
| 08:04.59 | ruskie | erm... by that I meant the backup should have covered it |
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| 08:42.59 | DocScrutinizer | BUUUUUY! |
| 08:43.03 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
| 08:43.35 | alterego | SEEELLL |
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| 08:44.27 | DocScrutinizer | hehe |
| 08:45.27 | tybollt | huh? |
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| 08:46.01 | alterego | NOK swtock? |
| 08:46.03 | pupnik | if you want to buy-and-hold for 10 years this wouldn't be a bad time |
| 08:46.14 | tybollt | the stock is racing? |
| 08:47.16 | pupnik | took about 10 years for apple to capitalize on NeXT's tech |
| 08:48.27 | alterego | pupnik: things should move a lot quicker nowadays? :) |
| 08:49.58 | DocScrutinizer | took about 3h for NOK to gain 10ct |
| 08:50.09 | MohammadAG | hmm |
| 08:50.17 | MohammadAG | might get the motorola atrix |
| 08:50.24 | pupnik | i'm not saying then=now, but that a recovery can take that long |
| 08:50.25 | MohammadAG | but android sucks :/ |
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| 08:50.38 | tybollt | MohammadAG: true that |
| 08:50.52 | tybollt | since I moved to android there is no end to the suffering :-/ |
| 08:51.14 | MohammadAG | specs are nice though |
| 08:51.25 | MohammadAG | would be cool to get debian and hildon-desktop on it |
| 08:51.40 | pupnik | it doesn't seem very fun to me |
| 08:52.05 | tybollt | well that's the point |
| 08:52.06 | pupnik | you can do some things as non-root but not so much |
| 08:52.24 | tybollt | wouldn't meego had been run on the snapdragon eventually anyhow? |
| 08:52.31 | MohammadAG | error: qbluetoothserviceinfo.h: No such file or directory uhh |
| 08:52.42 | MohammadAG | it's a snapdragon? |
| 08:52.49 | tybollt | ehr no it is not, sorry :) |
| 08:52.49 | MohammadAG | MeeGo should run on anything |
| 08:53.08 | MohammadAG | whether MeeGo succeeds or fails is up to intel, and the community |
| 08:53.10 | pupnik | who has played with steelrat? |
| 08:53.36 | tybollt | MohammadAG: Does intel have a vested interest to make it work on !x86? :-S |
| 08:53.46 | MohammadAG | no |
| 08:54.31 | MohammadAG | does Qt Mobility 1.2 on the N900 include the connectivity API? |
| 08:54.33 | smhar | is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#N900 updated enough that I can use to upgrade my N900 to PR1.3? |
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| 08:56.01 | alterego | MohammadAG: should do. |
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| 08:56.17 | MohammadAG | then I either messed up, or it doesn't :/ |
| 08:56.51 | alterego | Hrm, no, no packages in -devel :/ |
| 08:56.55 | frals | http://nokiaplanb.com/ |
| 08:57.11 | alterego | I'd expect to see qtm-12-connectivity |
| 08:57.23 | alterego | Maybe ping the author MohammadAG? |
| 08:57.32 | alterego | Maintainer should I say |
| 08:57.36 | _berto_ | frals: http://nokiaplanc.com/ |
| 08:57.40 | MohammadAG | ~seen achipa |
| 08:57.46 | infobot | achipa <~attila@Maemo/community/council/achipa> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 17h 50m 48s ago, saying: 'it's like saying a swiss army knife is crappy because the tools are small...'. |
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| 09:01.54 | DocScrutinizer | sounds quite reasonable |
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| 09:04.07 | alterego | Yes, I agree |
| 09:04.20 | alterego | shame there is not more |
| 09:04.24 | alterego | "likes" |
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| 09:05.04 | tybollt | who is creating nokiapland w/ a pic of wellingtons? :) |
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| 09:05.54 | alterego | Heh |
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| 09:12.14 | toggles | for sale: n900, only washed onced, oc'd ever since, send offers.. learning java.. ugh.. |
| 09:12.25 | ruskie | rofl |
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| 09:13.55 | DocScrutinizer | I'll bid USD0.99, at free shipping only |
| 09:15.00 | DocScrutinizer | smhar: yes |
| 09:17.34 | toggles | DocScrutinizer: if you pick it up in italy it's yours |
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| 09:18.14 | DocScrutinizer | where? |
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| 09:18.59 | toggles | lol, nah, i think i'm giving it to a mate who has no money, i'll teach him how to make sip calls on it when i get a nexus.. |
| 09:19.03 | toggles | sorry for yanking your chain |
| 09:19.09 | DocScrutinizer | or, make that 0.99 plus I pay for surface delivery via DHL |
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| 09:21.14 | RST38h | yo javispedro |
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| 09:24.12 | DocScrutinizer | moo jacekowski |
| 09:24.19 | DocScrutinizer | you as well |
| 09:24.23 | DocScrutinizer | you as well |
| 09:24.32 | DocScrutinizer | meant moo javispedro |
| 09:25.06 | Jaffa | Morning, all |
| 09:25.30 | javispedro | morning |
| 09:25.33 | DocScrutinizer | lo Jaffa |
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| 09:31.19 | jonwil | doubts he will ever be able to figure out all the closed APIs required to support cell broadcast on Maemo :( |
| 09:31.43 | jonwil | doubts Nokia is going to provide libisi-dev, libisi-glib-dev or csd-plugin-dev (or anything else) either :( |
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| 09:35.33 | lardman | ~seen Nemno |
| 09:35.38 | infobot | lardman: i haven't seen 'nemno' |
| 09:35.49 | lardman | hmm |
| 09:35.53 | lardman | thanks infobot |
| 09:35.53 | infobot | lardman: bitte |
| 09:36.08 | tybollt | infobot: vielen dank |
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| 09:38.30 | lardman | bbiab |
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| 09:48.49 | markinfo | my clock is not accurate, 13 Minutes difference - even there is checked Option "update automatically" and there si active connection to internet over Wifi. Is there something missing? ...I tried to find something like "ntp" in package manager - and there is only OpenNTPD daemon. Must it be installed? |
| 09:49.18 | flux | running ntpd on the phone might not be the best idea |
| 09:49.34 | flux | rather an hourly activation of ntpdate (with drift support) might do the trick |
| 09:49.49 | flux | however, the clock seems to synchronize to the 3g network for me, so I personally don't have a problem (on n900) |
| 09:50.57 | xkr47 | flux, I have had problems with ntpd in the past on desktops as well |
| 09:51.05 | xkr47 | ntpdate always works :) |
| 09:53.03 | markinfo | are there some settings for synchronizing of time? There is only one checkbox in Time settings. An it does not work probably. |
| 09:54.49 | markinfo | on my debian box is installed "NTP" and it makes automatically synchronizing. |
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| 09:54.57 | javispedro | the blackberry guys know how to party |
| 09:55.16 | javispedro | they have a global system switch for selecting wheter games/apps pause in the background |
| 09:57.00 | yacc | lol, the only "related" companies going up after Nokias suicide try is Google and Apple, ... |
| 09:57.34 | RST38h | yacc: Wait a bit, too ealry to tell |
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| 09:58.09 | yacc | RST38h, what's to wait, it's kind like Mercedes would decide stop selling their own cars, and start to license car designs from Opel, ... |
| 09:58.19 | Khertan | Morning ! |
| 09:59.07 | Khertan | yacc: in fact not really : opel have already a good market share and good products |
| 09:59.31 | yacc | Khertan, ok, replace that with Kia or Hyundai? Or Lada? |
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| 10:00.10 | lofty306 | wait what did Nokia just do? |
| 10:00.35 | jacekowski | markinfo: that automatic update uses gsm data |
| 10:00.41 | yacc | RST38h, Phone7 is not exactly a great product that can compete with Android or iOS, ... |
| 10:00.43 | jacekowski | markinfo: and not a lot of providers are sending it |
| 10:00.48 | jacekowski | yacc: it is |
| 10:00.54 | jacekowski | yacc: it's a lot better than android |
| 10:01.01 | Khertan | yacc: it s more like mercedes decide to stop making car, and decide to licence Velam Car |
| 10:01.30 | yacc | lofty306, they decided more or less to ditch Symbian and go with Microsoft Phone as their future, ... |
| 10:01.35 | Khertan | yacc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VELAM |
| 10:01.47 | jacekowski | well, symbian has bad marketing and as that is not recoverable platform |
| 10:02.01 | lofty306 | yacc, old news |
| 10:02.03 | jacekowski | wp7 has quite good marketing |
| 10:02.13 | Khertan | jacekowski: but meego is a good plateform |
| 10:02.14 | jacekowski | and is way better than android |
| 10:02.19 | Khertan | jacekowski: hum ... hum |
| 10:02.20 | jacekowski | Khertan: not finished yet |
| 10:02.20 | RST38h | Well, it may still end up with a miracle |
| 10:02.23 | yacc | jacekowski, well, they are on the middle on hardware uniformity between Apple and Google, and the hardware specs they force on manufacturer are great, compared with a T-Mobile G1 :-P |
| 10:02.31 | Khertan | jacekowski: near finished ... |
| 10:02.32 | lofty306 | thought they did something else along the same lines |
| 10:02.37 | Khertan | jacekowski: wp7 isn't finished too |
| 10:02.37 | RST38h | But user-experience-wise, WP7 is a lemon. Not sure how marketing can fix that. |
| 10:02.43 | markinfo | jacekowski, well - it explain that - really even with other simple phone was time by this provider not actualised. |
| 10:02.49 | jacekowski | Khertan: well, some people claim that meego will never be finished |
| 10:02.54 | yacc | jacekowski, compared with a Galaxy SII i9000 or an iPhone 4, not so much. |
| 10:03.22 | jacekowski | yacc: there is nothing wrong with having fast cpu |
| 10:03.25 | Khertan | jacekowski: and from a marketing point of view ... hum ... symbian is still see better than wp7 |
| 10:03.42 | jacekowski | Khertan: i wouldn't be so sure about it |
| 10:03.56 | jacekowski | and symbian is hard for developers |
| 10:04.02 | jacekowski | and developers are lazy |
| 10:04.03 | *** join/#maemo florian_kc (~fuchs@port-217-146-132-69.static.qsc.de) |
| 10:04.03 | *** join/#maemo florian_kc (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 10:04.09 | jacekowski | so they prefer java android |
| 10:04.12 | *** join/#maemo tackat (~trahn@pd95c4acb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:04.18 | jacekowski | or c#/.net wp7 |
| 10:04.28 | javispedro | virtually all of the mwc tablets are the fscking same. |
| 10:04.34 | yacc | jacekowski, not sure if you noticed, MS development process basically forces the Phone7 manufacturers in using yesteryear hardware specs, guess top-of-the-line Symbian hardware will have to be downgraded to be allowed to run Phone7, ... |
| 10:04.55 | lofty306 | hahaha |
| 10:05.02 | jacekowski | yacc: well, 1Ghz cpu and 512M of ram as minimum |
| 10:05.05 | lofty306 | or rehashed in a yeear or2 |
| 10:05.07 | jacekowski | yacc: that isn't really last year |
| 10:05.08 | javispedro | even if theyre not android clones, I would have a hard time telling each os from the other, even with a short video. |
| 10:05.20 | jacekowski | mwc/ |
| 10:05.21 | lofty306 | wwith a new skin on it |
| 10:05.23 | jacekowski | ? |
| 10:05.33 | MohammadAG | The atrix still kicks their ass |
| 10:05.36 | jacekowski | you mean htc? |
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| 10:06.13 | MohammadAG | dual core 1GHz - some review video said that's 2GHz ... - and 1GB RAM |
| 10:06.26 | MohammadAG | slap MeeGo on it, or better yet, debian with hildon and it's a win |
| 10:06.40 | Khertan | jacekowski: wp7 is a mix between the worst part of iOs with the worst part of Android |
| 10:06.47 | Khertan | jacekowski: closed as iOS |
| 10:06.47 | yacc | jacekowski, considering that Tegra2 offers 1GHz cores and is the standard for top of the line non Phone equipment, ... |
| 10:06.52 | jacekowski | Khertan: bs |
| 10:06.52 | Khertan | no multitasking |
| 10:06.58 | jacekowski | Khertan: it's more open than ios |
| 10:07.04 | jacekowski | Khertan: whole .net library is open |
| 10:07.09 | Khertan | Bouarf ! |
| 10:07.18 | jacekowski | Khertan: you are free to develop on windows/linux/anything |
| 10:07.22 | markinfo | so the only possibiliy to update time (if the provider does not give it) is to install NTP Daemon? Does it not stress accu? |
| 10:07.23 | Khertan | jacekowski: cocoa is also open if you consider .net open |
| 10:07.24 | jacekowski | not just on macshit |
| 10:07.25 | yacc | jacekowski, so how do you install non-MS-approved apps on it? |
| 10:07.43 | Khertan | jacekowski: you can't develop seriously on linux |
| 10:07.45 | yacc | markinfo, you can also run periodically ntpdate. |
| 10:08.09 | jacekowski | tackat: same way as on iphone |
| 10:08.27 | *** join/#maemo dneary (~dneary@ALyon-152-1-71-57.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 10:08.27 | *** join/#maemo dneary (~dneary@Maemo/community/docmaster/dneary) |
| 10:08.57 | markinfo | "ntpdate: not found" ...can I log in terminal as root? |
| 10:09.09 | jacekowski | yes |
| 10:09.11 | jacekowski | sudo gainroot |
| 10:09.19 | jacekowski | you just need gainroot or rootsh package before that |
| 10:09.36 | yacc | jacekowski, let me summarize, the non-technical journalist that reiterate usually press releases are atypically sober on this Nokia crazyness, normally one would expect a firework of positive comments on anything MS related, ... |
| 10:10.53 | jacekowski | i'm just saying that it's not a bad move nokia made |
| 10:11.06 | jacekowski | as in they could have done worse |
| 10:11.09 | jacekowski | like went android way |
| 10:11.22 | Khertan | jacekowski: i m not sure android will be worst move |
| 10:11.34 | Khertan | jacekowski: and i think the wp move was the worst |
| 10:11.43 | yacc | jacekowski, yeah right, Elop could have gone around himself mining all Nokia property and then pressed the button to vaporize it himself? |
| 10:11.44 | markinfo | if there is no command ntpdate? even as root? |
| 10:11.46 | RST38h | Android could have been better |
| 10:11.51 | Khertan | jacekowski: at least on android they could promote qt |
| 10:11.56 | tybollt | shrug I agree w/ the assesment ellop made; nokia + android == bland... |
| 10:12.14 | RST38h | As it provides better user experience than WP7, it is more feature complete, and you can also wrap your own features around Android's core set |
| 10:12.18 | Khertan | markinfo: sudo gainroot then apt-get install openntp |
| 10:12.28 | jacekowski | Khertan: then it wouldn't be android anymore |
| 10:12.28 | jacekowski | Khertan: they can do qt on wp7 as well |
| 10:12.29 | tybollt | nokia should've stuck w/ meego. |
| 10:12.29 | javispedro | also thinks "yet another android cloner" would have been suicidal |
| 10:12.35 | tybollt | Finland used to be all about guts... finns have courage. |
| 10:12.41 | RST38h | javispedro: Depends on what you do with it |
| 10:12.46 | yacc | jacekowski, Android would have allowed Nokia at least to keep some identity and to allow it to be customized to some extend. WP makes Nokia just one in a list of hardware sweatshops, ... |
| 10:12.47 | tybollt | They've shown now that they don't have that anymore |
| 10:12.49 | Khertan | javispedro: but they will not ... this is what they said : use win tools |
| 10:12.54 | dneary | wonders when people will stop post-morteming the decision & start looking to what happens next |
| 10:13.02 | RST38h | javispedro: For example, you can quickly host it inside Meego, release it, then add non-Android features around it |
| 10:13.10 | jacekowski | yacc: not really |
| 10:13.13 | derf | dneary: Give it another 3 months. |
| 10:13.14 | jacekowski | yacc: nokia can modify it |
| 10:13.18 | markinfo | Khertan, "OpeNTPD"? - this has Programmmanager found |
| 10:13.21 | jacekowski | yacc: then can add qt if they want to |
| 10:13.26 | tybollt | dneary: We're all stuck in PTS man, don't ruin oiur buzz ;) |
| 10:13.28 | Khertan | dneary: wait for summer |
| 10:13.30 | jacekowski | yacc: but that would mean creating something incomaptible |
| 10:13.34 | yacc | jacekowski, they already said that they are not allowed that, ... |
| 10:13.36 | javispedro | next that happens is dead, past times are more fun. |
| 10:13.37 | RST38h | javispedro: With Android, you still kinda control your destiny to a certain degree. WP7 is more along the lines of shutting up and bending over. |
| 10:13.42 | Khertan | dneary: when an other manufacturer will sell meego handset device :) |
| 10:14.00 | jacekowski | yacc: no, they said they can do it, but they won't |
| 10:14.02 | javispedro | RST38h: had they gone Android, they would have had most of the backlash but without lech media ado. |
| 10:14.31 | RST38h | javispedro: Dunno, I am not looking at the PR side of the story |
| 10:14.46 | derf | RST38h: I dunno... given that MS's own WP7 handsets were massive failures, Nokia probably has sufficient leverage to control future direction of the platform. |
| 10:14.51 | RST38h | javispedro: Only at the technical side, i.e. "can you differentiate yourself inside android ecosystem" |
| 10:15.05 | yacc | Anyway, talking to local Nokia people they all seem slightly in shock, and not a good shock, ... |
| 10:15.08 | RST38h | derf: See previous examples of companies partnering with MWS |
| 10:15.11 | jacekowski | RST38h: yes, but then you create incompatible platform |
| 10:15.12 | RST38h | MS |
| 10:15.15 | Khertan | dneary: nokia push for Qt, and now abandon dev for their future device ... it s a bit normal that we are angry |
| 10:15.18 | derf | RST38h: Yes, I read that article, too. |
| 10:15.20 | RST38h | jacek: you do not |
| 10:15.20 | jacekowski | RST38h: and you are in a shit again |
| 10:15.31 | *** join/#maemo SmilybOrg (Smily@BSN-61-46-166.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 10:15.39 | RST38h | derf: Also check out what WP7 development is like |
| 10:15.46 | derf | I'd rather not, thanks. |
| 10:16.07 | RST38h | derf: Hint: it is C# only, on top of a cut-down WinCE with multitasking mostly disabled |
| 10:16.29 | derf | That's still gotta be better than Apple and Objective C and all that crap. |
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| 10:16.48 | dneary | In the meantime my solution will be "sudo mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden; su -c "at '050111 00:00' \n mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome^D" |
| 10:16.49 | RST38h | derf: Apples is actually not that bad, just weird and comes with a toilet plunger from behind |
| 10:16.50 | Khertan | derf: you mean worse ? |
| 10:16.51 | javispedro | RST38h: do not understimate the number of MS.NET-only shops |
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| 10:16.59 | dneary | Khertan, Sure it is |
| 10:17.03 | jacekowski | RST38h: c# is better than objC |
| 10:17.14 | RST38h | javispedro: Yes, but what you can do with a lemon like this? Technically? |
| 10:17.16 | dneary | Khertan, It's just against my nature to lose sleep about stuff that's done & dusted |
| 10:17.17 | jacekowski | RST38h: it's better platform than first ios was |
| 10:17.29 | javispedro | RST38h: around the number of java crazies, and probably way more than people that even KNOW what objc is. |
| 10:17.32 | yacc | jacekowski, but you don't, Android is incredibly "compatible" even if you patch it around for different functionality, in practice there are very very few apps that do not run on an Archos tablet from the Market, and these involve 95% or so missing hardware (no point in a SMS app for hardware without a mobile part, Navigation dislikes the fact that we've got no GPS, and so on), and only a tiny bit has problems with the big screen or the fact that Archos viol |
| 10:17.32 | yacc | ates Googles guidelines by changing screenresolution on the fly, ... |
| 10:17.36 | dneary | Khertan, So my instinct is always to absorb the news & say "OK, what now?" |
| 10:17.39 | derf | jacekowski: If only this was 2007. |
| 10:17.57 | RST38h | javispedro: Well, yes, lots of java "programmers". So, following your logic, we should have wonderful MIDP apps nowadays |
| 10:18.06 | javispedro | RST38h: nothing, but that worked well for apple :D |
| 10:18.10 | Khertan | dneary: but this announce made too many changes from me ... |
| 10:18.13 | dneary | If going backwards was a possibility, I'd be all for it, but it seems unrealistic (and, frankly, suicidal for NOK in the marketplace) to reverse strategy now |
| 10:18.19 | yacc | jacekowski, all the bloggers decrying Androids fragmentation, sorry don't see it day-to-day, ... |
| 10:18.21 | RST38h | javispedro: But check what MIDP apps ae available and you will see that the miracle just isn't there. |
| 10:18.23 | smhar | I mounted my N900 in mass storage mode and copied all important data to PC, now I want to copy /home too. I have ssh installed but I can not get an IP when starting in in N900 |
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| 10:18.40 | Khertan | dneary: i was applying for a job position which is now close about applications developpment for meego |
| 10:18.43 | jacekowski | MIDP is a cut down version of java with almost no capabilities |
| 10:18.49 | dneary | So... the choices are: make MeeGo with a NOK involvement at ~40% of present a success, or drop participation in MeeGo |
| 10:18.52 | yacc | jacekowski, furthermore, consider "firmware" updates => ever watched how long it took T-Mobile to approve a new Nokia Symbian firmware, ... |
| 10:19.01 | markinfo | there is only: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/openntpd/ ...but even with ths there is no command "ntpdate" |
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| 10:19.03 | dneary | (at the individual level those are my choices) |
| 10:19.13 | RST38h | jacekowski; Well, the full java does not run on a resource constrained device! Same applies to C# .NET |
| 10:19.15 | jacekowski | yacc: well, like i care what t-mobile thinks |
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| 10:19.22 | jacekowski | yacc: i just flash it with firmware i download |
| 10:19.24 | javispedro | RST38h: well all I see on TV are MIDP useless widgets. |
| 10:19.24 | Khertan | dneary: so now i need to study an other plateform if want to try to be employed to do mobile app developpment |
| 10:19.27 | jacekowski | yacc: not with branded stuff |
| 10:19.38 | RST38h | javispedro: Exactly |
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| 10:19.48 | jacekowski | RST38h: android is mostly java |
| 10:19.55 | jacekowski | RST38h: and everybody is happy withit |
| 10:20.03 | dneary | Khertan, See, you're getting the hang of it :) |
| 10:20.04 | jacekowski | java is apparently most popular programming lanugage now |
| 10:20.15 | jacekowski | which is part of android success |
| 10:20.17 | RST38h | javispedro: Because no matter how many developers you have and no matter how much enthusiasm and money, if your base platform is sufficiently broken/maimed, they won't do a thing for you |
| 10:20.33 | dneary | Khertan, *if* your goal was making a living out of app development, *then* MeeGo is a non-starter for you now, and I would move to Android straight away |
| 10:20.41 | RST38h | javispedro: Same Google is finding this out just about now, which makes them work on the NDK |
| 10:20.42 | yacc | jacekowski, no, I mean, one of the common complaints is that Android devices get stuck at an old Android version, => that's simply only a half-truth => yes some are stuck if you do not use unofficial images => but then, before Android/iOS that was the norm, nobody even expected that a Symbian handset would upgrade to next release of a handset, ... |
| 10:20.50 | dneary | Khertan, In fact, I'd ask you what you were doing on MeeGo in the first place, to be honest |
| 10:20.51 | Khertan | dneary: as i didn't know anymore any companies which will do meego app dev (near paris) ... i'm currently looking at other plateform and start learning Android |
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| 10:21.17 | RST38h | javispedro: I am sure Android's top cheeses absolutely hate the NDK, it is so ugly and not what they want, but develoers require it |
| 10:21.49 | dneary | If you're banking on the next new edgy platform that will build up a nice niche, I'd be tempted to concentrate on HTML5 and Javascript, learn Node.js and target both Android & WebOS |
| 10:21.54 | Khertan | dneary: a company that would like to have app ported from iOS and Android ready when the first MeeGo device appear |
| 10:22.25 | jacekowski | javascript has performance issues |
| 10:22.55 | Khertan | jacekowski: look at QtQuick it s javascript ... and it s didn't have performance issues |
| 10:22.55 | derf | It's gotten a lot better in the past year. |
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| 10:23.30 | jacekowski | try doing full screen 3d game in javascript |
| 10:24.04 | derf | With WebGL, that is very feasible. |
| 10:24.08 | RST38h | WebGL. |
| 10:24.10 | jacekowski | try it |
| 10:24.19 | RST38h | jacekowski <== obviously has never tried it |
| 10:24.25 | jacekowski | i've tried it |
| 10:24.25 | derf | The most serious limitation right now is the GC. |
| 10:24.34 | jacekowski | it's slower than native code |
| 10:24.40 | RST38h | Which is why you want native development environment |
| 10:24.45 | jacekowski | something like 3-4x slower at least |
| 10:24.50 | javispedro | rst38h: but that's what I guess will happen on wp7. c# for the masses, and eventually ms will do something for native. |
| 10:24.57 | RST38h | BUT, the fun part is, Android provides you with NDK. WP7 does not. |
| 10:25.13 | RST38h | javispedro: The keyword is "eventually". You do not know. |
| 10:25.17 | jacekowski | fun part is that c# and .net was designed to be JITed at runtime |
| 10:25.30 | jacekowski | java never was designed for that |
| 10:25.33 | RST38h | Oh, not the JIT argument again... |
| 10:25.56 | markinfo | what is the name of package with "ntpdate" program? |
| 10:25.58 | RST38h | Android comes with a JIT nowadays. Java has had JITs for years, people defended dissertations on Java JITs |
| 10:26.04 | yacc | jacekowski, naturally it's slower than native code, but so what. Current hardware is usually way over the requirements of the users anyway, for PCs that's a given, and for mobile devices it is starting to be so too, ... |
| 10:26.05 | jacekowski | yes |
| 10:26.12 | jacekowski | but java JIT is slower than .net JIT |
| 10:26.16 | RST38h | The problem is, you are still losing performance, even with a JIT |
| 10:26.22 | jacekowski | yacc: not for games |
| 10:26.30 | RST38h | jacekowski: And you, of course, compared? On an ARM device? |
| 10:26.32 | jacekowski | yacc: where having 20% more matters |
| 10:26.38 | jacekowski | RST38h: yes |
| 10:26.41 | RST38h | Got the numbers? |
| 10:26.52 | Khertan | jacekowski: did you know there isn't any better language, just some more suitable for some purpose ? |
| 10:27.01 | jacekowski | there is |
| 10:27.03 | jacekowski | C is better |
| 10:27.25 | yacc | jacekowski, yes, for most games too, if it's not a top-of-the line FPS, my wife has been playing quite a number of months 90% or so of the newest Adventures (she is an Adventure addict) on a PC without dedicated GPU, ... |
| 10:27.39 | yacc | jacekowski, not the bullshit C argument, ... |
| 10:27.41 | derf | While I certainly agree with you for the things _I_ like to write, I also realize that I am in the minority. |
| 10:27.46 | Khertan | jacekowski: mouarf |
| 10:27.47 | yacc | jacekowski, J |
| 10:27.51 | Khertan | jacekowski: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/csharp.php |
| 10:28.11 | derf | C is a terrible language for many things, and for many developers. |
| 10:28.21 | RST38h | derf: C++ fixes that, somewhat |
| 10:28.24 | Khertan | jacekowski: http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html |
| 10:28.25 | xkr47 | there is always visual basic |
| 10:28.26 | RST38h | hides =) |
| 10:28.40 | Khertan | jacekowski: 21 line in python // 184 in C |
| 10:28.42 | jacekowski | Khertan: that's on x86 and comapring mono |
| 10:28.54 | yacc | jacekowski, JITs or to be more specific spezialing compilers can even beat C for some code, because it takes the used code paths into account, ... |
| 10:28.54 | derf | You mean it makes the language so bad people who shouldn't be using it run and hide? |
| 10:29.16 | zutesmog | and PyPy is looking good now on the perf front ;-) |
| 10:29.32 | RST38h | Using a limited subset of C++ will make your life easier |
| 10:29.36 | jacekowski | yacc: i very much doubt you can beat clang |
| 10:29.42 | RST38h | It is using the whole beast that will kill you |
| 10:29.56 | derf | Yes, we've had this discussion before. |
| 10:30.28 | jacekowski | Khertan: 372 lines in java |
| 10:30.28 | derf | And what you say _might_ be true (if the tools didn't suck so mcuh), until you have project with more than one developer. |
| 10:30.39 | Khertan | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php <<< perfectly useless :) |
| 10:30.42 | derf | Every one of which has a different idea of what part of the language they'd like to use. |
| 10:31.16 | jacekowski | Khertan: you see C++ won |
| 10:31.21 | jacekowski | second language after C |
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| 10:31.37 | RST38h | derf: Then you control your developers well |
| 10:31.39 | yacc | jacekowski, well, actually, it's simple, consider GC => without GC C/C++ forces you to design modules with static ownership relationships => so C/C++ is forced in many cases to copy objects just because it lacks GC. |
| 10:31.39 | jacekowski | hmm, C won |
| 10:31.40 | Khertan | jacekowski: and ? |
| 10:31.57 | RST38h | derf: usually, providing them with class declarations and prohibiting from modifying these works |
| 10:32.13 | derf | Well, I'd tell them to use C, and that would solve that problem. |
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| 10:32.19 | Khertan | jacekowski: and now in term of development time, stability ? |
| 10:32.20 | derf | Seems like less work for me. |
| 10:32.26 | RST38h | derf: regular scans for "new" keyword with consequent executions also help |
| 10:32.47 | RST38h | derf: Nah, they will fuck up your C code too, don't get your hopes too high |
| 10:32.47 | yacc | RST38h, using a minimal subset of C++ is pointless, because you need to know the complete language, the moment you get involved in debugging your app that uses for example STL facilities, e.g. string objects. |
| 10:33.10 | RST38h | yacc: Then do not use STL in your app. I am not. |
| 10:33.16 | derf | Of course they will, but it'll be easier to fix. |
| 10:33.31 | RST38h | yacc: I.e. I have no problem debugging apps with STL, but never use this hackish crap myself |
| 10:33.53 | deno | hi |
| 10:34.12 | yacc | RST38h, so what if some library you need uses STL? And if you don't use STL, you end up with a gazillion of simple classes like strings because each and every library module uses it's own implementation of the concept? |
| 10:34.57 | deno | I followed the instruction of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43420 to install the kernel-power but even if I install the sdk-fiasco-gen package I get: E: Build-Depends dependency for kernel-power cannot be satisfied because the package sdk-fiasco-gen cannot be found |
| 10:35.03 | deno | any idea of how to solve it' |
| 10:35.40 | RST38h | yacc: One more time: If some library I need uses STL, I reconsidering using this library. If I still see I need it, I use it, with STL. |
| 10:35.47 | yacc | RST38h, well, funny is when you watch an University graduate (aka newbie) that can program C++ fine start to debug some memory problem. Ended up with the CTO (which happened to have risen through as a developer) and me (both with more than a decade C/C++ experience) debugging his stuff, because he was that baffled, .. |
| 10:36.09 | RST38h | yacc: Not using a language feature DOES NOT mean you should not know of it existance |
| 10:36.13 | yacc | RST38h, no problem, but I consider your argument about using a sane subset of C++ BS ;) |
| 10:36.19 | RST38h | yacc: Have I provided a clear explanation? |
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| 10:37.01 | RST38h | yacc: Yes, people do not know how to debug memory problems. A lot of people are also lazy, so they do not want to know. |
| 10:37.07 | yacc | So yes, you need to have developers that know the complete C++ well, then you can decide on a saner subset for a project. ;) |
| 10:37.38 | RST38h | yacc: And yes, the way to prevent this is to regularly scan code for "new"/"malloc" and ask developers to avoid these features |
| 10:37.57 | RST38h | yacc: Because in reality, you do not need to use them that much |
| 10:38.16 | derf | But RAII! |
| 10:38.20 | yacc | RST38h, well, debugging memory problems has gotten so much easier over the years with stuff like valgrind, but yes, it's something that needs experience in my experience ;) |
| 10:38.24 | RST38h | yacc: And if you do, the can be encapsulated into asmall bunch of spots |
| 10:38.59 | RST38h | yacc: I mean, teaching people to code defensively is not new, so I dunno what you find unusual |
| 10:39.39 | yacc | RST38h, nice try, with a 15 years old code base that uses CORBA, Motif, Qt, (dual event loop), embedded Python, yacc/lex based own languages, and so on, grepping for known problem "texts" like malloc would trigger a complete rewrite of the app, ... |
| 10:39.43 | MohammadAG | dotblank, groove's working again with the latest update, thanks :) |
| 10:39.58 | RST38h | yacc: Well, if you have got legacy code, it is a different story |
| 10:40.19 | RST38h | yacc: There, you are just trying to get rid of memory allocation as much as possible |
| 10:41.30 | yacc | RST38h, well, the problem is not that it can be done, because it can. C++ is a perfect language for a project with a couple of former student friends that are very good at it. Now take what you get as developers in a commercial setting, and you see that perhaps less than 5% CVs are even worth the bother to do an interview, ... |
| 10:42.04 | RST38h | yacc: You really think these remaining 95% will do well in C? Or maybe C#? |
| 10:42.08 | yacc | RST38h, and avoiding dynamic allocation is less than trivial in a event driven GUI app btw, ;) |
| 10:42.49 | RST38h | yacc: It is not about the programming language, it is just abut 95% of your CVs being sent by unqualified people, period. |
| 10:42.57 | yacc | RST38h, well, they'll do better in C#/Java because the languages/VMs do protect them from the worst errors (e.g. memory corruption), ... |
| 10:43.16 | RST38h | yacc: No, they will still write garbage and you will end up rewriting it. |
| 10:43.27 | deno | no one? |
| 10:43.30 | RST38h | Or supporting it at great pain |
| 10:43.34 | alterego | I think that's harsh :P |
| 10:43.46 | RST38h | That's realistic, alterego |
| 10:43.58 | RST38h | I suspect both me and yacc have seen it, more than once =( |
| 10:44.02 | alterego | I'm not "qualified" but I don't think I'm a horrendus engineeer :) |
| 10:44.14 | RST38h | alterego: Cannot tell. |
| 10:44.20 | yacc | RST38h, possible, but that's the reality of commercial development, btw, the only places with technically good people usually ended with the technical sound parts being killed by management ;) |
| 10:44.34 | RST38h | alterego: But many people I had to interview for developer positions just plain can't code. |
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| 10:44.48 | RST38h | yacc: That too |
| 10:45.00 | alterego | And I've seen some "qualified" engineers that write crap and need to be guided through everything .. |
| 10:45.01 | MohammadAG | alterego, only abill_uk can say if you're a "horrendous" engineer or not |
| 10:45.08 | alterego | Heh |
| 10:45.12 | RST38h | alterego: This is what I mean by "can't code" |
| 10:45.20 | alterego | :) |
| 10:45.25 | yacc | RST38h, even people interviewing for a "Senior Python developer" position could not program simple for loops in about 50% of cases. |
| 10:45.39 | RST38h | alterego: In a lot of cases you can tutor them, but they have to be able of higher mental activity |
| 10:45.42 | Khertan | yacc: ??? |
| 10:45.47 | yacc | RST38h, complicated concepts like "unit tests" where beyond most of them. |
| 10:45.57 | Khertan | yacc: a for loop in python ? |
| 10:45.58 | RST38h | yacc: I know. |
| 10:46.07 | Khertan | yacc: r u kidding ? |
| 10:46.40 | yacc | Khertan, of yes, trust me, the realities of being a freelancer in the IT world, usually called in to fix problems by people to stupid to realize that they have a problem, ... |
| 10:46.44 | APTX | does that mean I can be a senior python programmer? |
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| 10:47.15 | alterego | yacc: that's amusing, because I'm I guess not confident enough to ever apply to a "senior" position. |
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| 10:47.16 | Khertan | yacc: ouch ... it s a base concept ... |
| 10:47.21 | yacc | APTX, well, not exactly, because at that place the python dept head did institute programming tests before the interview ;) |
| 10:47.32 | alterego | And like I said, I like to think I'm a relatively good coder. |
| 10:48.03 | RST38h | alterego: It is difficult to say without seeing your code |
| 10:48.08 | derf | I remember being introduced to a bunch of VCs as a "senior programmer" right out of high school. |
| 10:48.09 | yacc | alterego, not sure how old you are, but after a decade in IT, one usually develops a certain cynic world view, or changes vocation ;) |
| 10:48.11 | kerio | i'm a crappy coder but according to most interview stories i'm more qualified than 90% of professional "coders" |
| 10:48.15 | derf | Titles like that mean very little. |
| 10:48.32 | alterego | yacc: pretty much 28 yo |
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| 10:48.57 | alterego | yacc: got about 6 years professional experience. |
| 10:49.39 | yacc | kerio, lol, but that's quite normal, at my last place they had a software developer that could not manage even the simplest tasks with VBA (like concepts like variables, if/loop statements), and because of local regulations he was in fact unfireable, ... |
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| 10:50.20 | yacc | alterego, well, I guess with 6 years experience the cynism about the industry should start to set in, you know the exact time line is slightly individual :-P |
| 10:50.50 | alterego | yacc: well, I'm more cynical about buearocracy. |
| 10:50.59 | zutesmog | imo a good developer should be able to help other people solve their code problems even in languages they are not particularly familiar with. |
| 10:51.01 | alterego | corporatism and basically management :D |
| 10:51.24 | alterego | anyhow, I'm gonna hit the shower bbiab |
| 10:52.05 | yacc | I've personally noticed that many people (in the general population, and to a slightly lesser extend in the developer population) have problems to understand the concept of nested loops. If they cannot do that, they will be always a failure as a developer, if they can manage that level of abstract understanding, there is hope for at least a mediocrate developer (and you know about one-eyes being king in the land of blind?) |
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| 10:54.06 | zutesmog | in my experience I encounter far too many "developers" whose problem solving skills are the real problem. They don't know how to break the problem down into simple pieces. This applies to not just coding, but networking, sysadmin etc..... |
| 10:54.25 | kerio | i don't get why people apply for that kind of position without actually knowing how to code |
| 10:54.36 | kerio | i mean, how did they get in the industry if they have no idea of what they're doing? |
| 10:54.47 | RST38h | yacc: You absolutely have to work for US government shop or a government contractor =) |
| 10:54.52 | jacekowski | well, nested loops are bad because they tend to make program slower |
| 10:54.55 | zutesmog | that and the inability to RTFM, astounding. |
| 10:54.57 | kerio | jacekowski: ._. |
| 10:55.01 | kerio | not intrinsically |
| 10:55.30 | jacekowski | in most cases nested loops can be avoided with something a lot faster |
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| 10:55.42 | jacekowski | saying that, i sometimes use them |
| 10:55.42 | RST38h | yacc: (and yes, they actively fire anyone who can actually do something, being able to do work is bad for your career in government :)) |
| 10:55.50 | yacc | Anyway, the reality is that a very nice (in an academic sense) language like C++ (did I mention that the templating part is turing complete), turns out rather bad in many commercial settings, because it's much to sharp tool for the Neanderthals that get to use it in most banks, insurrance companies, military contractors, ... corporate settings, ... |
| 10:56.18 | RST38h | Yes, but it is not the only such tool in the store |
| 10:56.22 | jacekowski | yacc: somebody has to write all these JITs that run java and stuff |
| 10:56.40 | RST38h | And you can wreak havoc in Java too, absolutely no problem there |
| 10:56.49 | yacc | RST38h, not being an US citizen, that won't happen to me, but I managed to work in the energy sector in Germany, fascinating, there even the external freelancers are expected to be slow like the cliche about civil servants here around, ... |
| 10:56.56 | RST38h | Whoever told you that Java is "safe" was bullshitting you |
| 10:57.07 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 10:57.09 | *** join/#maemo MadViking (~user@88.193.150.143) |
| 10:57.15 | kerio | java has pointers |
| 10:57.19 | yacc | RST38h, I said safer, not safe. ;) |
| 10:57.20 | kerio | you can blow shit up with pointers |
| 10:57.26 | RST38h | yacc: Not even safer |
| 10:57.30 | kerio | and c++ sucks |
| 10:57.55 | RST38h | yacc: Ok, it will not crash right away, it will crash on Wednesday night when it finally exhausts all system memory |
| 10:58.18 | Khertan | RST38h: ah .... cycling references ... |
| 10:58.21 | Khertan | hum .... |
| 10:58.21 | Khertan | :) |
| 10:59.03 | RST38h | yacc: And debugging THAT will be harder than malloc/new extermination |
| 10:59.56 | yacc | RST38h, I stand by it, the ugliest items e.g. memory corruption that shows up unreliably at an unrelation point in time later is hard to create in Java (but doable, I mean, any language that allows global state, can have that problem, but in Java you'll probably need explicit assignments to that global state, while in C/C++ these variables can be overwritten by a crazy dangling pointer with no hints at the source code level, ... |
| 11:00.51 | javispedro | this reminds me of that guy who wraps his main() in a try ... catch do_nothing(); block and says |
| 11:00.54 | jacekowski | but there are tools to fix it |
| 11:01.06 | javispedro | "there, it does not crash anymore" |
| 11:01.09 | jacekowski | valgrind for example |
| 11:01.14 | yacc | RST38h, yeah, but then, many programs don't need to keep running till Wednesday, they are killed every day and started fresh the next day ;) => and yes, you can have a memory leak in a GC-ed language. |
| 11:01.16 | jacekowski | javispedro: that's cool |
| 11:01.39 | jacekowski | yacc: i was running that sort of program |
| 11:01.47 | jacekowski | yacc: it had to be restarted at specific time of a day |
| 11:01.50 | mece | testing cssu on Untouched n900 :) |
| 11:02.02 | jacekowski | yacc: if you started it later it wouldn't work untill 02:00 next day |
| 11:02.14 | yacc | Well, the nicest things I've seen (and that was in really critically security sensitive code) has been if(*x && x) // work on HP-UX as it has a mapped null page with all zeros in it |
| 11:02.27 | xkr47 | mece, nice |
| 11:02.33 | jonwil | Time to see if I can identify the 2 remaining libisi functions I need to figure out |
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| 11:04.25 | yacc | I also loved the thing about assigning booleans into a bitmap, casting the bitmap into an integer, and then comparing that integer with a number of integer values to see if a certain combination of boolean conditions applied. (The developer claimed that this was legacy code, but 3 months later I caught him churning out his own new code with that construct, guess he never understood why that code failed when changing endianess) ;) |
| 11:04.59 | yacc | (eg when "porting" that Ansi-C *cough* program from HP-UX to Linux, ...) |
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| 11:06.08 | RST38h | javispedro: You can do it without a try*(, just catch proper signals |
| 11:06.39 | yacc | RST38h, well, catching proper signals is not as "portable" as the try catch :-P |
| 11:06.48 | RST38h | yacc: Still POSIX though :) |
| 11:07.13 | RST38h | yacc: And tell derf about that try/catch thing, I am sure he will be delighted ;) |
| 11:08.12 | *** join/#maemo schend (~suresh@nat/nokia/x-jsycdboxhgsdbrwh) |
| 11:08.13 | zutesmog | but not many people really understand the implications of signals especially in threaded environments. I have seen people think they are a replacement for a true IPC strategy |
| 11:08.28 | yacc | Well, try/catch is not the cure-all to all problems. While it might be better than checking errno and result values, it has this ugly property of often masking problems, especially with to broad catches :( |
| 11:08.53 | RST38h | yacc: Which brings us to the next good C++ tactic: do not let your developers use try/catch |
| 11:09.08 | RST38h | yacc: Always check and return results |
| 11:09.14 | zutesmog | The correct strategy most of the time is not let your developers use C++ |
| 11:09.43 | RST38h | zutesmog: Again, if you do not let them mess up class definitions, you are relatively safe |
| 11:09.56 | javispedro | not on java ;) |
| 11:10.02 | javispedro | point is clear, I hope. |
| 11:10.02 | zutesmog | I really don' |
| 11:10.05 | yacc | zutesmog, well, that's what RST38h is saying, even if he does not realize, he is crossing of C++ feature by feature till he crossed out 95% of C++ :-P |
| 11:10.25 | RST38h | yacc: No, only crossing ~30% of C++ |
| 11:10.40 | RST38h | yacc: But yes, I fully admit of using C++ as "a better C" |
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| 11:10.57 | yacc | lol, RST38h you just have not enough fantasy to see what desasters can happen, ... |
| 11:10.58 | deno | any one knows the h-e-n irc channel |
| 11:10.59 | deno | ? |
| 11:11.02 | zutesmog | oops, the problem is teams change and C++ and C is often unreadable between teams. |
| 11:11.06 | RST38h | yacc: But I do, see? |
| 11:11.08 | zutesmog | especially 2 years later. |
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| 11:11.29 | RST38h | zutesmog: and there are "reliable" alternatives? :) |
| 11:11.41 | RST38h | like, eh, java? :) |
| 11:11.42 | zutesmog | Number one criteria for me in any project is the code should be readable and understandable by humans first and foremost. |
| 11:11.57 | Per_n900 | you guys dont like python? |
| 11:12.01 | RST38h | zutesmog: does not depend on the language (ok, ok, MOSTLY) |
| 11:12.19 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:12.19 | RST38h | Per: Snakes. Afraid of snakes. Hate 'em! :) |
| 11:12.23 | zutesmog | Agreed up to a point, but people try to get fancy. |
| 11:12.36 | RST38h | zutesmog: that is why you have to tutor them |
| 11:12.38 | zutesmog | (I love python but wasn't going to raise that) |
| 11:12.44 | yacc | RST38h, if you do not have very specific reasons to be as lowlevel as possible, higher level languages like Lisp, Python, Ruby, Smalltalk and so on come to mind. |
| 11:12.48 | deno | I installed that package |
| 11:12.53 | RST38h | zutesmog: for their own good and for your ass preservation |
| 11:13.00 | MohammadAG | deno, are you on ARMEL? |
| 11:13.08 | zutesmog | really strict guidelines are necessary in any team if the project is going to have a long life. |
| 11:13.14 | deno | MohammadAG, arm |
| 11:13.28 | yacc | zutesmog, well, almost any observation about programming applies to any language (you know, the turing complete argument), but usually to a different degree. |
| 11:13.39 | RST38h | yacc: May I please shrug and go have lunch, at the mention of Ruby, Lisp, and Smalltalk, as viable industrial alternatives? :) |
| 11:13.42 | zutesmog | I spent years writing insurance systems in business basic, (back in late 80's) and we code reviewed everything. |
| 11:14.04 | derf | There's code review and there's code review. |
| 11:14.05 | deno | MohammadAG, I used the https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7972 |
| 11:14.08 | povbot | Bug 7972: Kernel in PR1.1 build-depends on fiasco-gen which is nowhere to be found |
| 11:14.16 | RST38h | zuesmog: You do not need strict guidelines. Strict guidelines do not work. |
| 11:14.20 | zutesmog | yacc: thats why I wasn't targetting specific languages. |
| 11:14.27 | yacc | RST38h, well, Neanderthals produce more reliable code with Python, even if you do not love it than with C++, ... ;) |
| 11:14.33 | zutesmog | RST38h: don't agree on that point. |
| 11:14.36 | RST38h | zuesmog: But you need to make your developers understand WHY they should stick to certain practices |
| 11:14.50 | MohammadAG | deno, change debian/control then |
| 11:14.59 | MohammadAG | Edit Depends to depend on that package |
| 11:15.05 | MohammadAG | though you should use sdk-fiasco-gen from the repos |
| 11:15.08 | zutesmog | absolutley but if you don';t have those guidelines everything goes to pot and each new dude brings his own flavour along |
| 11:15.31 | RST38h | zuesmog: No, you assign the new dude to an old dude and watch his commits for a while, then let him continue on his own |
| 11:15.42 | yacc | zutesmog, python has it's own set of features that should be used only when you really need them and know where you'll get cut (e.g. __getattr__ can be a bitch, meta classes are not understood by 90% of developers, and so on) |
| 11:15.46 | zutesmog | even in OSS project slike python have strict guidelines for committers |
| 11:16.04 | zutesmog | tests must pas, follow PEP 8 when practical etc... |
| 11:16.12 | zutesmog | s/pas/pass/ |
| 11:16.16 | zutesmog | code reviews etc.. |
| 11:16.21 | deno | MohammadAG, which repository? with apt-get is not possible to download it |
| 11:16.26 | yacc | PEP7/8 :-P |
| 11:16.59 | zutesmog | ;-) |
| 11:17.36 | MohammadAG | deno, nokia-binaries... |
| 11:18.06 | deno | MohammadAG, I have it in the sources.list |
| 11:18.15 | deno | but it doesn't find it anyway |
| 11:18.46 | MohammadAG | apt-get update |
| 11:19.07 | deno | already done |
| 11:19.17 | deno | apt-cache search fiasco |
| 11:19.23 | deno | no output |
| 11:19.35 | zutesmog | yacc: agreed every language has its dark corners, 90% of the time you don't need to go there, but be glad you can when you need to ;-) |
| 11:19.40 | smhar | I followed this wiki: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking but I can not ping 192.168.2.15 from my notebook, any help? |
| 11:20.12 | SpeedEvil | Does ifconfig show the interface as up? |
| 11:22.38 | smhar | SpeedEvil, no |
| 11:22.54 | deno | MohammadAG, I have in the sources.list: deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/mytoken nokia-binaries |
| 11:22.57 | smhar | although I did ifup usb0 |
| 11:23.12 | smhar | it is shown in route |
| 11:23.16 | MohammadAG | is mytoken "mytoken" or $mytoken? |
| 11:23.18 | SpeedEvil | You possibly do not have the correct driver for usb-net |
| 11:23.35 | DocScrutinizer | deno: there's no h-e-n IRC channel, there's only a hostmode DEVELOPERS taskforce meeting channel |
| 11:23.48 | *** join/#maemo achipa (~attila@gprs-prointernet-ffb6c200-250.dhcp.inet.fi) |
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| 11:24.07 | smhar | docscrutinizer, I was able to do that before |
| 11:24.20 | deno | MohammadAG, deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/4bc37c7c11ebe90174c040b805a8dc79 nokia-binaries |
| 11:24.55 | deno | DocScrutinizer, k and what is? I m going to modify the kernel to improve (hopefully) the hostmode |
| 11:25.04 | smhar | SpeedEvil, I can ping 192.168.2.15 from within N900 |
| 11:25.20 | DocScrutinizer | #maemo-hostmode-discussion |
| 11:25.24 | deno | DocScrutinizer, thx |
| 11:26.38 | alterego | It's so sad that people see Maemo and MeeGo as failed platforms. |
| 11:26.48 | tybollt | alterego: no |
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| 11:27.13 | tybollt | alterego: 'people' don't. Nokia board of directors do - why do you think they hired Elop? :) |
| 11:27.30 | jarkkom_ | platform might be ok, but people see nokia as failed company (and in many ways it is) |
| 11:27.36 | smhar | SpeedEvil, I am wrong, usb0 is up in N900, it was just a looong list in the small display, had to use less to confirm |
| 11:27.43 | alterego | I don't see that, I think they've done more than a lot of other companies have done. Even if we're not completely happy with it or how they executed it. Working with Maemo and MeeGo is very fun. |
| 11:27.44 | smhar | SpeedEvil, now what? |
| 11:28.02 | alterego | tybollt: tell that to the continual rants on tmo :P |
| 11:28.14 | chem|st | they fscked up big time and now they try to even sell their souls to the devil |
| 11:28.15 | SpeedEvil | smhar: double check the IPs, and make sure the routes point right - so that you're not routing the other machine to the local interface |
| 11:28.56 | jarkkom_ | alterego, nokia is horribly bureaucratic company, they can't do software dev work required by current market |
| 11:28.58 | chem|st | I like the nokiaplanb shareholders^^ |
| 11:29.35 | jarkkom_ | chem|st, yeah but that plan 3-4 years to late, lots of nokia people have said same things privately for years |
| 11:30.52 | alterego | It's not that they're not talented enough, there id dome serious talent in Nokia, it just seems like their are huge bottlenecks in their r&d infrastructure and release engineering cycles. |
| 11:31.09 | alterego | s/id dome/is some/ |
| 11:31.15 | chem|st | jarkkom_: sure but harmattan will ship first time this year, even a N910 would make sense with the current PR+CSSU |
| 11:31.55 | alterego | chem|st: cssu is pointless for harmattan as harmattan doesn't use hildon :P |
| 11:32.12 | chem|st | alterego: read again pls |
| 11:32.45 | chem|st | I wouldn't call meego releasable... |
| 11:32.56 | chem|st | talking m5 |
| 11:33.27 | alterego | Don't want another M5 device thanks :P |
| 11:33.45 | chem|st | alterego: sure you dont? |
| 11:33.50 | alterego | And MeeGo is very close to being releasable, but lets not forget Harmattan is not MeeGo :P |
| 11:34.00 | alterego | chem|st: got two :P |
| 11:34.10 | chem|st | and harmattan sounds like testing stage |
| 11:35.06 | alterego | It was 5/5 the pretty much final product, with DUI and Qt as the core platform API |
| 11:35.32 | alterego | I think that's either very late in the r&d phase or pretty much mass production ready. |
| 11:35.34 | smhar | SpeedEvil, my mistake, forgot to allow-hotplug n900 in my notebook. now I can ping 192.168.2.15 . thanks |
| 11:35.37 | chem|st | alterego: but you dont have a slim N910 with 1.2GHz, 1GB RAM, AGN, 12Mpx.... |
| 11:35.59 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 11:36.05 | alterego | chem|st: I'd prefer that hardware with a more refined more open (MeeGo) OS :) |
| 11:36.22 | chem|st | alterego: but that is no businessplan |
| 11:36.45 | chem|st | and still you must not have you sim with pin active and so on... |
| 11:37.32 | alterego | Basically Harmattan would be the last "maemo" as they transition the lower level apis into MeeGo core, as the Harmattan UX is supposed to be MeeGo compliant. Because MeeGo handset UX is basically Harmattan UX :) |
| 11:38.18 | alterego | chem|st: if you're refering to MeeGo Handset not having pin feature, do you seriously think they'd not put that in before release? |
| 11:38.29 | *** part/#maemo bilboed-tp (~bilboed@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 11:38.45 | chem|st | alterego: sure they will... |
| 11:38.47 | smhar | when mounted as mass storage, I have copied all important data to my pc. now I an logged in ssh to N900, what should I copy to pc, so that I am sure I have full backup before flashing |
| 11:39.15 | alterego | Also, from the ARM adaptation perspective, the reason we don't really have PIN functions is because of the dual boot setup |
| 11:39.16 | chem|st | smhar: you could just use the backup tool... |
| 11:39.41 | alterego | Well, not dual boot setup, but the current boot setup |
| 11:39.56 | smhar | chem|st, did that. and copied the created folder to pc. |
| 11:40.02 | chem|st | if you copied your mydocs and have done a full backup to your SD you are just fine |
| 11:40.11 | alterego | I think it requires some interesting kernel and initrd stuff, stuff that would be in a final device :P |
| 11:40.17 | javispedro | notes the state of the meego handset n900 images is not representative of the state of harmattan. |
| 11:40.33 | smhar | chem|st, I have no SD . I copied every thing to pc |
| 11:40.40 | javispedro | harmattan works =) |
| 11:40.41 | chem|st | smhar: did you modify anything within /etc then you might want to copy those few files as well |
| 11:40.54 | alterego | javispedro: exactly, or even the state of whatever _real_ MeeGo Nokia may or may not be working on internally. |
| 11:40.56 | smhar | chem|st, no. |
| 11:41.03 | smhar | nothing special |
| 11:41.18 | alterego | bbiab |
| 11:41.19 | chem|st | javispedro: that is what I say since Doc made me aware of... |
| 11:41.27 | chem|st | well not exactly |
| 11:42.00 | chem|st | that they are two different things I know back from february last year but noone ever seems to listen to anything but rants |
| 11:42.03 | *** join/#maemo LjL (~ljl@unaffiliated/ljl) |
| 11:42.22 | chem|st | smhar: then you are good to go |
| 11:42.40 | smhar | thanks chem|st |
| 11:43.06 | chem|st | yw |
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| 11:43.33 | LjL | how easy is it as a rule to port stuff from Maemo 5 back to 4? |
| 11:43.52 | chem|st | "as a rule"? |
| 11:44.27 | LjL | i mean in general, i realize it depends on the program |
| 11:44.50 | chem|st | anything meeting dependencies might just work after being recompiled for m4 |
| 11:45.40 | LjL | that's nice, /me goes to grab SDK or whatever is needed to try |
| 11:46.23 | chem|st | but there was something about the UX implementation changes between m4 and m5 (afair) |
| 11:46.48 | chem|st | you may ask the maintainer for help |
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| 11:51.45 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: why not suggest backupmenu to smhar? |
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| 12:12.25 | ZogG | thp, thaaaaank you |
| 12:12.33 | ZogG | finally someone did it |
| 12:12.53 | lofty306 | ? |
| 12:13.02 | ZogG | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZeDI0BsoBM&feature=youtu.be |
| 12:13.25 | ZogG | Jaffa, i think it should be added to mwkn and font page of maemo news |
| 12:14.04 | MohammadAG | it's indeed quite awesome :) |
| 12:14.25 | MohammadAG | see his other vid on full forced rotation |
| 12:14.27 | DangerMaus | finnaly i h8;d that by the time it shifted i had given up |
| 12:15.53 | ZogG | MohammadAG i said thousand times it is useless to have rotaion liek we had |
| 12:15.58 | DangerMaus | now is there a app name for it? |
| 12:16.06 | ZogG | MohammadAG, link for other one? |
| 12:16.36 | ZogG | DangerMaus, wait for CSSU update. MohammadAG, right? =) |
| 12:17.09 | DangerMaus | day week month ? |
| 12:17.40 | lardman | interesting that PlanB business |
| 12:17.50 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 12:17.59 | SpeedEvil | Unless they've got enough shares to force it. |
| 12:18.01 | lofty306 | im trying to l=sleep me mum is banging roound the kitchen |
| 12:18.04 | lardman | Well at least the part about culling management overhead |
| 12:18.09 | lardman | SpeedEvil: indeed |
| 12:18.15 | ZogG | DangerMaus i think week max but i bet for couple days |
| 12:18.20 | lofty306 | oops wrong chan |
| 12:18.42 | *** join/#maemo peb (~peb@p579D4865.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:18.47 | peb | Hi folks |
| 12:18.50 | DangerMaus | k thnx |
| 12:20.23 | lardman | might carry more weight if people knew who they were and how many shares they own |
| 12:20.48 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. 1 share, for the purposes of the note = lol. |
| 12:21.19 | lardman | well unless they can persuade 51% of the other shareholders of course ;) |
| 12:21.25 | ZogG | MohammadAG awesome, finally i can close microb while in portrait |
| 12:21.31 | lardman | is there a minimum buy-in for directorship? |
| 12:22.18 | RST38h | Mohammad: You fixed MicroB? |
| 12:22.50 | MohammadAG | no, thp made a forced rotation patch |
| 12:22.51 | mece | is The maps application open source thp? |
| 12:23.02 | lardman | no |
| 12:23.05 | MohammadAG | mece, it's a web app |
| 12:23.11 | mece | oh, nice :D |
| 12:23.12 | MohammadAG | basically, it's the most open source app :P |
| 12:23.25 | lardman | but it uses a binary to do the hard work |
| 12:23.38 | MohammadAG | cept for the launcher and window I guess |
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| 12:23.56 | lardman | the map geenration and rendering is all in the binary |
| 12:23.57 | thp | mece: the main layout is just a html file |
| 12:24.13 | mece | thp, curious. is it a webkit widget? |
| 12:24.23 | alterego | No, it's XUL |
| 12:24.40 | alterego | A load of javascript, and XPCOM bindings |
| 12:24.59 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: never heard anything good about it... |
| 12:25.22 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: V2 seems to work |
| 12:25.46 | chem|st | DocScrutinizer: and with copying of MyDocs and backup to desktop it is just fine... |
| 12:25.57 | DocScrutinizer | at last for the part to create a proper tarball of rootfs |
| 12:26.11 | chem|st | sure |
| 12:26.30 | DocScrutinizer | chem|st: yep, modulo the "did you change /etc?" part |
| 12:26.37 | chem|st | but I do not expect an advanced user even asking what to backup... |
| 12:26.49 | MohammadAG | hmm, why don't I have backupmenu v2... |
| 12:27.40 | DocScrutinizer | dunno... maybe RobbieThe1st forgot to kick MohammadAG's ass? |
| 12:28.00 | RobbieThe1st | ? |
| 12:28.03 | MohammadAG | why would he do that :P |
| 12:28.12 | tackat | hm |
| 12:28.19 | DocScrutinizer | RobbieThe1st: just advertising backupmenu :-) |
| 12:28.23 | chem|st | I forgot about /root in my scripts and had to setup all from scratch from .ssh to .bashrc etc |
| 12:28.24 | *** join/#maemo setanta (~setanta@187.112.14.165) |
| 12:28.26 | RobbieThe1st | :P |
| 12:28.32 | RobbieThe1st | V2 = 0.40+ |
| 12:30.07 | DocScrutinizer | RobbieThe1st: did you include a boot menupoint? which would allow to bootup as if kbd slider been closed |
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| 12:32.56 | thp | http://thp.io/2011/maemo/ham/ham_portrait.png |
| 12:33.01 | ZogG | thp, you are awesome |
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| 12:33.16 | RST38h | thp: Is the whole UI ok, or is it broken? |
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| 12:33.38 | ZogG | MohammadAG, is n900 calendaer is closed source? |
| 12:34.09 | thp | RST38h: of H-A-M? it works pretty well |
| 12:34.18 | RST38h | cool =) |
| 12:34.23 | lardman | ZogG: ui is, backend is open |
| 12:34.26 | RST38h | thp: BTW, what was the magic trick? |
| 12:34.36 | thp | magic trick? |
| 12:34.43 | RST38h | thp: to make it go portrait I mean |
| 12:34.56 | thp | RST38h: see http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-application-manager/merge_requests/1 for the diff :) |
| 12:35.22 | alterego | oh no, the first sign of wearing out on my keypad :D |
| 12:35.39 | alterego | It's the bloody symkey :D |
| 12:35.45 | thp | the background gradient has to be provided by the theme, though - by default, it's black. i just copied in a background gradient i gimped up myself |
| 12:35.46 | Jaffa | thp: Cool stuff |
| 12:35.54 | mece | thp, very nice. |
| 12:35.59 | rmrfchik | had you discussed Nokia Plan B? |
| 12:36.34 | Jaffa | thp: Is it h-d which monitors the accelerometers and handles deciding when to go portrait/landscape? I think the timing could be reduced a little (making it feel more fluid) and some kind of UI hook provided for "lock orientation" |
| 12:36.43 | MohammadAG | mce |
| 12:36.55 | xkr47 | Jaffa, agreed |
| 12:36.59 | RST38h | thp: neat =) |
| 12:37.00 | MohammadAG | h-d listens to that afaik |
| 12:37.12 | RST38h | thp <-- is even polite enough to keep the same coding style |
| 12:37.58 | javispedro | aha, webos dev event |
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| 12:39.28 | mece | Jaffa, definately agree on the timing. It feels slow. I always start shaking the device before it rotates. |
| 12:39.45 | thp | RST38h: dialogs also work mostly: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8634/screenshot2011021513400.png |
| 12:40.23 | thp | Jaffa: yep, h-d decides which orientation to use |
| 12:40.34 | thp | mce does the listening, i think |
| 12:42.20 | RST38h | thp: "mostly" won;t cut it :( Modest also "mostly" works in portrait, just not completely |
| 12:42.44 | MohammadAG | Jaffa, though i guess it can be hacked in (orientation lock) |
| 12:43.24 | deno | guys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment? |
| 12:43.32 | thp | RST38h: ok. completely then :) |
| 12:43.39 | deno | any* |
| 12:43.51 | thp | with mostly i meant "i didn't change anything, and what i saw when testing it worked fine" |
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| 12:46.45 | RST38h | thp: Make it part of CSSU! :) |
| 12:47.10 | ZogG | lardman thinking of actually how is posible to change some things |
| 12:47.11 | RST38h | thp: Btw, if you feel like resizing a few widgets, check out Modest, it only has a couple of tight spots |
| 12:47.23 | DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: the lis302 g-meter chip should assert a IRQ line, kernel driver sensing this and emitting a /sys kevent, which gets detected by mce(?) and converted to a dbus signal, I guess |
| 12:47.32 | RST38h | thp: like buttons staying in portrait when rotated etc |
| 12:47.46 | ZogG | and add the google support |
| 12:47.49 | _berto_ | http://www.nokiapland.com/ |
| 12:47.51 | _berto_ | http://www.nokiaplane.com/ |
| 12:47.52 | _berto_ | ... |
| 12:48.10 | xkr47 | also plan9 |
| 12:48.12 | lardman | ZogG: sure, would be good to be able to change a lot of things really |
| 12:48.15 | Jaffa | thp: There's already a merge request for it to go into the CSSU. gitorious seems to be working well to gather patches. |
| 12:48.18 | xkr47 | and f and g are registered |
| 12:48.45 | _berto_ | f is NSFW |
| 12:50.23 | DocScrutinizer | nokiaplank FTW |
| 12:50.43 | DocScrutinizer | reads nokiaplane and shudders |
| 12:51.05 | rmrfchik | no plans for nokia in XXI |
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| 12:53.17 | thp | what does the text in nokiaplanz.com say? |
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| 12:53.51 | thp | RST38h: buttons staying in portrait? |
| 12:53.53 | Jaffa | thp: "Hotel package is closed." according to Google Translate |
| 12:54.00 | ZogG | lardman let's change nokia decision about WP7 with calendar time back plugin |
| 12:55.15 | xkr47 | thinks this is a winner.. power button -> Phone -> menu -> Turning control -> Display orientation -> Landscape |
| 12:55.23 | thp | Jaffa: oh, so that's probably just some domain parking thing then |
| 12:55.32 | xkr47 | it has been annoying me since I got the phone that it keeps rotating the screen one or two times every time I want to answer the phone |
| 12:55.37 | xkr47 | delaying the answering |
| 12:55.41 | DocScrutinizer | MEH http://www.nokiaplang.com/ |
| 12:55.42 | _berto_ | http://nokiaplanx.com/ |
| 12:55.44 | _berto_ | this one is random |
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| 12:57.26 | ZogG | thp, Hotel package is closed as google said |
| 12:57.36 | ZogG | http://translate.google.co.il/translate_t?hl=en&q=Hotellipaketti+on+suljettu&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sl=fi&tl=en&sa=X&ei=JHhaTaKdMYKj8QPAppTVDw&ved=0CBoQrgYwAA# |
| 12:58.32 | lardman | ZogG: Calendar frontend needs to be re-written, preferably adding in some features like different alarm options, etc. |
| 12:58.44 | lardman | ZogG: Reverse engineering the format of the map data would be useful |
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| 13:00.22 | RST38h | thp: Yes, when you rotate the device (after Ctrl+Shift+R) Modest rotates, but the accuont selection buttons stay wide (i.e. they go beyond the screen) |
| 13:00.32 | RST38h | thp: Same thing occurs in some other Modest screens |
| 13:00.41 | ZogG | of the map data? |
| 13:00.58 | lardman | ZogG: yes, to enable the Maps app to be replaced |
| 13:01.10 | lardman | and use the decent vector data that we all now own |
| 13:01.29 | ZogG | oh i dunno that we had maps integrated in calendar =) |
| 13:03.25 | Per_n900 | hildon-desktop still does not support portrait mode or am I wrong? |
| 13:03.46 | ZogG | Per_n900, it supports, but not apps do |
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| 13:05.24 | lardman | ZogG: was a different point actually, not sure whether it does support the calendar app |
| 13:05.44 | lardman | actually I think it does, but doesn't support contacts. Or vice versa |
| 13:05.53 | lardman | either way the maps app is craptastic |
| 13:06.41 | ZogG | lardman, ovi maps sucks but for my country most apps suck =)) |
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| 13:07.04 | lardman | where are you ZogG ? |
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| 13:07.16 | ZogG | lardman, Holy Land |
| 13:07.23 | lardman | The Vatican? |
| 13:07.26 | lardman | ;) |
| 13:07.52 | lardman | Palestine then I guess? |
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| 13:08.06 | lardman | or some part thereof |
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| 13:08.23 | lardman | I suppose I should include Israel |
| 13:08.46 | lardman | doesn't mean to start a Holy war |
| 13:08.59 | Ken-Young | Saving "The Levant" is safest. |
| 13:09.41 | Ken-Young | s/Saving/Saying. |
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| 13:10.33 | lardman | Ken-Young: yes indeed |
| 13:11.29 | ZogG | lardman Israel |
| 13:11.39 | lardman | I got there in the end then :) |
| 13:13.03 | lardman | has anyone looked at the format of the map data? |
| 13:13.25 | lardman | the ovi maps binary is quite large unfortunately |
| 13:14.32 | lardman | hmm, everytime I make a modification to my code, some error falls out which was previously hiding in there |
| 13:14.43 | MohammadAG | ZogG, I have to say, Google Maps on the iPhone is epic |
| 13:16.08 | lardman | I was just about to try looking at Israel using Ovi maps, but the site seems to be knackered |
| 13:16.12 | yacc | What's the "complete" backup for the N900, just before sending it in to Nokia Service? |
| 13:16.29 | derf | lardman: That's the way coding is supposed to work. |
| 13:16.49 | derf | Since no code is bug free, if you're not finding new bugs, you're doing it wrong. |
| 13:16.58 | lardman | derf: amazing how different mistakes almost cancel each other out, just leaving very small differences you can't work out |
| 13:18.11 | derf | In signal processing, this is the normal state of affairs. |
| 13:19.01 | lardman | yeah |
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| 13:20.08 | yacc | derf, that's the normal state of affairs in most fields, ... |
| 13:20.28 | yacc | derf, even if it's a single error, you cannot assume that while diagnosing it, ... |
| 13:20.49 | Kegetys | anyone have any idea why I randomly have icd2 and dbus-daemon taking up significant cpu time for many hours on N900? |
| 13:21.00 | derf | No, I mean the error terms _literally_ cancel. It's not even a bug! |
| 13:21.24 | lardman | I'm comparing to known good analytical models, so I need to work out what's error and what's implementation inaccuracy |
| 13:21.58 | derf | Ah, you're lucky then. |
| 13:22.08 | lardman | until I changed one part of the code that was generating an error and suddenly everything is out by a factor of 2 |
| 13:22.37 | lardman | until I found the other error that was causing the factor of 2 error |
| 13:22.40 | lardman | all good fun |
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| 13:24.03 | ZogG | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:24.37 | LjL | argh. any clue why my N810 might not connect to WLAN? note i do have a lot of non-standard repositories enabled, including extras-devel, but... it was working 10 minutes ago! ;( |
| 13:25.23 | psycho_oreos | probably something you installed recently that stuffed it up |
| 13:25.56 | LjL | boo there is no /var/log/dpkg.log :( |
| 13:27.13 | sevard | LjL: on the other hand since you actually have an n810, do you have a fast picture viewer? |
| 13:27.31 | sevard | i have tear, which is fast, telescope, which is fast, mytube, which is fast |
| 13:27.38 | sevard | i'm looking for other fast awesome shit :D |
| 13:27.53 | LjL | sevard: that's something i haven't investigated yet... my N810 is quite new, only got it a few days ago :) |
| 13:27.59 | sevard | whoa |
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| 13:28.04 | sevard | good luck with it! get telescope ;) |
| 13:28.20 | LjL | i do have all the other programs you mentioned :P except telescope. i tried it, but i had a feeling it took up a bit too much RAM... |
| 13:28.36 | sevard | whaaat |
| 13:28.45 | sevard | a feeling or actual numbers lol |
| 13:29.08 | LjL | well, VSZ was 16000 in ps |
| 13:29.18 | LjL | but i never really knew what the ps numbers actually do mean :P |
| 13:29.34 | psycho_oreos | VSZ might be virtual size |
| 13:30.38 | LjL | how strange... it connects to my open network, but not to my WPA protected network. i've reset the router and the N810 both. |
| 13:31.09 | psycho_oreos | vsz - virtual memory size of the process in KiB (1024-byte units). Device mappings are currently excluded; this is subject to change. (alias vsize). |
| 13:31.30 | LjL | so it's how much it malloc()ed, whether or not it actually touched it? |
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| 13:37.12 | LjL | wish N810 had a back-facing camera. i already have mirrors. |
| 13:38.56 | erstazi | loves CSSU |
| 13:39.23 | lcuk | LjL, stick 2 N810's back to back |
| 13:39.42 | erstazi | thank you MohammadAG |
| 13:40.33 | LjL | heh |
| 13:41.30 | xkr47 | so what does cssu update? |
| 13:41.33 | Kegetys | wish N900 didn't have a back-facing camera so it wouldn't have that bulge in the back ;) |
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| 13:42.20 | xkr47 | is there any replacement camera app that would be simpler than the default |
| 13:42.25 | erstazi | xkr47: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 13:42.29 | xkr47 | the buttons are in the way when you want to hold it with one hand |
| 13:43.49 | SpeedEvil | Kegetys: you can cut off the shutter, and it won't |
| 13:44.29 | erstazi | hah |
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| 13:51.22 | LjL | by the way sevard, i'm making an N8x0 tips page at http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_the_N8x0 maybe you want to check it / add something |
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| 13:56.38 | alterego | So, who's hiring? :D |
| 13:57.02 | jacekowski | google is |
| 13:57.23 | alterego | I'm not ex Nokia |
| 13:57.36 | alterego | :D |
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| 14:01.11 | deno | guys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment? |
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| 14:10.39 | DocScrutinizer | I'd kindly request you to vote: https://bugs.maemo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_user&bug_id=8347#vote_8347 (maybe useless, but can't hurt) |
| 14:11.32 | DocScrutinizer | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347 |
| 14:11.34 | povbot | Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available |
| 14:12.30 | ZogG | i don't get it |
| 14:12.37 | ZogG | i installed maemo sdk |
| 14:12.44 | ZogG | and i have qt creator |
| 14:13.12 | ZogG | how can i do that if i run for test my app it would be emulated like in maemo |
| 14:16.10 | *** join/#maemo Douglish (dal@ip-188-116-89-52.static.spk.cz) |
| 14:16.27 | Douglish | Hi all, I have a problem with my N900 and maemo, my device doesn |
| 14:16.39 | yacc | DocScrutinizer: what/who does use cell broadcast? |
| 14:17.03 | *** join/#maemo biston (~biston@89.108.182.179) |
| 14:17.07 | Douglish | doesn't see some wireless networks (ap), but other devices see it and singal is strong enought, what should I do to find out where the problem is? |
| 14:17.10 | DocScrutinizer | yacc: see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347#c12 |
| 14:17.13 | povbot | Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available |
| 14:18.00 | Sc0rpius | ZogG: did you read the wiki? summary: scratchbox, Xephyr, and af-sb-init.sh start |
| 14:18.06 | DocScrutinizer | Douglish: some or any? |
| 14:19.09 | Douglish | DocScrutinizer: It sees only ad-hoc networks. But on other place it saw others not only ad-hoc, so I'm bit confused about that. |
| 14:20.02 | DocScrutinizer | you made sure the missing networks are 802.11b/g and not hidden-SSID? |
| 14:20.03 | Douglish | But maybe there is a problem there there is roaming on. It's eduroam network. |
| 14:20.14 | biston | hey guys is it possible to run fluxbox on the n900 ? |
| 14:20.38 | biston | ah nevermind, found the wiki page |
| 14:20.45 | jonwil | So yeah who can we ping to find out if doing something about the bug with IncomingCBS is possible or not? |
| 14:20.52 | Douglish | Oh, I see the problem, I guess. Frequency:5.18 GHz |
| 14:21.48 | DocScrutinizer | that's not supported by N900 |
| 14:22.46 | biston | yea i can see that, instructions are for n810, but gonna try it on my n900 anyway... |
| 14:24.34 | javispedro | its fun to see hp ignoring nokia and nokia ignoring hp in the ecosystem race |
| 14:25.23 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:26.37 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
| 14:26.57 | rmrfchik | in soviet russia^Wfinlad, ecosystems doesn't need YOU! |
| 14:27.04 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: whom to ping about 8347? |
| 14:27.07 | rmrfchik | ecosystem |
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| 14:27.51 | javispedro | DocScrutinizar: nfi, probably a symbian guy :S |
| 14:27.55 | *** join/#maemo udovdh (~udovdh@pindarots.xs4all.nl) |
| 14:28.00 | DocScrutinizer | lol |
| 14:28.07 | jonwil | We just need to find who owns libcsd-sms.so and libsms.so |
| 14:28.23 | jonwil | If I had the binary .debs for them, the changelogs and stuff may say who owns it |
| 14:28.28 | DocScrutinizer | nobody owns it now, I guess |
| 14:28.38 | jonwil | or rather who wrote it |
| 14:29.22 | DocScrutinizer | didn't the .h headerfiles in Qt SDK clearly say who wrote it? |
| 14:29.31 | *** join/#maemo Diod (~Diod@unaffiliated/diod) |
| 14:29.43 | jonwil | nope, those arent related to libsms or csd-sms |
| 14:29.50 | jonwil | those are related to the cell modem |
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| 14:29.53 | DocScrutinizer | ok |
| 14:29.54 | jonwil | which would be a different guy |
| 14:30.39 | DocScrutinizer | so, usual path: council, tekojo, stskeeps, random-staff-affiliated |
| 14:31.11 | *** join/#maemo jatt (~user@85.115.3.118) |
| 14:31.20 | jonwil | stskeeps or tekojo seems like the best bet at this point |
| 14:31.27 | DocScrutinizer | maybe andre__ as well |
| 14:32.02 | DocScrutinizer | he's the guy to port community bugtraq tickets into Nokia |
| 14:32.19 | andre__ | ...in case they make sense. |
| 14:32.26 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 14:32.29 | jonwil | so yeah bugs 8347 and 10870 are the issues related to this |
| 14:32.41 | jatt | will be a pr1.3? |
| 14:32.53 | jatt | will be a pr1.4? |
| 14:32.54 | andre__ | jatt: ??? |
| 14:33.13 | DocScrutinizer | andre__: unrelated, I guess |
| 14:33.14 | jatt | another maemo update for the n900 |
| 14:33.44 | andre__ | and what's with those tickets? enhancement == meego (no enhancements for maemo planned as far as I know), and the other is WONTFIX |
| 14:34.14 | jonwil | 8347 has turned from an enhancement into a bug |
| 14:34.26 | jonwil | as in, there is functionality in the cellular stack for maemo |
| 14:35.00 | andre__ | if it's not a critical or blocker bug that actually won't change much. |
| 14:36.00 | jonwil | so I guess we have to give up on having working Cell Broadcast on the N900 then :( |
| 14:36.11 | *** join/#maemo _berto_ (~berto@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) |
| 14:36.43 | DocScrutinizer | andre__: opening up some limited amount of source might do |
| 14:36.53 | andre__ | tell Nokia |
| 14:37.18 | jonwil | yes all we would need is the source code to libsms and libcsd-sms and any header files required to compile that |
| 14:37.19 | DocScrutinizer | :-) thought you *are* Nokia for all that matters here |
| 14:37.37 | andre__ | err...no? |
| 14:37.48 | andre__ | I'm not a Nokia employee, nor a Nokia lawyer. |
| 14:38.01 | andre__ | I just handle bug reports. |
| 14:38.02 | jonwil | ok, so we should ping stskeeps or tekojo then |
| 14:38.11 | DocScrutinizer | I see ;.( |
| 14:38.14 | *** join/#maemo PhonicUK (~PhonicUK@pdpc/supporter/student/phonicuk) |
| 14:38.16 | jonwil | I guess |
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| 14:38.58 | DocScrutinizer | sounds like tekojo can't do much either |
| 14:39.27 | DocScrutinizer | stskeeps could, if we convince him meego-arm needs those info |
| 14:40.18 | jonwil | except that it doesnt because of ofono |
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| 14:41.03 | Jaffa | Didn't the ofono folks get something running on Maemo? |
| 14:41.15 | Jaffa | Or was it limited to the same API already available for CSD etc. |
| 14:41.19 | DocScrutinizer | it's an affront against maemo community that we can't get *any* help to fix bugs ourselves, while meego-arm just needs to ask and gets *maemo* sources usually without problems |
| 14:42.34 | *** part/#maemo Douglish (dal@ip-188-116-89-52.static.spk.cz) |
| 14:43.14 | DocScrutinizer | I feel this attitude of Nokia is letting down their users much worse than any switch to winP7 does |
| 14:43.23 | alterego | DocScrutinizer: not sources .. |
| 14:43.33 | DocScrutinizer | oh, NOT? |
| 14:43.39 | alterego | We get the same bins you get, though maybe slightly modernised. |
| 14:43.43 | DocScrutinizer | what about mce then, just for instance |
| 14:43.50 | jonwil | yeah MCE |
| 14:43.57 | jonwil | MeeGo has MCE in git |
| 14:44.26 | DocScrutinizer | PA another one that comes to mind |
| 14:44.26 | jonwil | but its not the same code as in Fremantle |
| 14:44.37 | jonwil | PA still has closed binaries in MeeGo |
| 14:44.39 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: even worse |
| 14:45.03 | jonwil | although I think that Nokia made the closed-pa bits in MeeGo smaller than those in Maemo |
| 14:45.07 | jatt | will be there a moment where I can install maemo, meego or any other linux "distribution" on a phone and just run it? just like you can run ubuntu on nearly any laptop? |
| 14:45.13 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: all this doesn't change the mere fact |
| 14:45.21 | jonwil | yeah we arent asking for the entire |
| 14:45.23 | jonwil | oops |
| 14:45.52 | DocScrutinizer | jatt: no |
| 14:45.59 | jatt | DocScrutinizer: what are the limitations? |
| 14:46.09 | jonwil | we arent asking for the entire Maemo source tree, just some dev packages and source code for a few specific packages that we can use to improve Maemo and make it better (all of which are replaced by open code in MeeGo) |
| 14:46.29 | *** join/#maemo hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 14:46.49 | jatt | smartphones are getting closer to computers, I was just wondering |
| 14:46.57 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: that's probably well understood (or just not of interest) at Nokia |
| 14:47.20 | jonwil | MeeGo-on-n900 is not the answer IMO, neither is "lets replace the telephony stack and everything that uses it with ofono and the inferior MeeGo bits" |
| 14:47.35 | jonwil | I say inferior in that say the phone dialer in MeeGo is not as good as the one in Maemo |
| 14:47.37 | Jaffa | jonwil: The council will be asking again, but we're letting our colleagues in Nokia work out if they've still got a job first ;-) |
| 14:47.45 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: the problem is they are not willing to spend one man's one day work, to open up anything, for maemo |
| 14:47.56 | Jaffa | Unless there's a good cost/benefit analysis. |
| 14:48.14 | Jaffa | Certainly "we want as much as possible" isn't as useful as "X wants Y to be able to do Z" |
| 14:48.27 | *** join/#maemo skython (~Sky@p5B223FA8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:48.29 | Jaffa | Where "X" == jonwil, "Y" == telephony stuff and "Z" == "cell broadcast" |
| 14:48.44 | DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: that's why I added https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347#c12 |
| 14:48.46 | povbot | Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available |
| 14:48.52 | jatt | they did a good cost/benefist analysis for the windows take over :) |
| 14:48.56 | jatt | benefit |
| 14:49.00 | DocScrutinizer | I hope that's clear enough |
| 14:49.07 | jonwil | and for telephony, the mere fact that ofono exists means that all the "open the maemo code" arguments a LOT harder to argue |
| 14:49.09 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Indeed. |
| 14:49.25 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: I wonder how best to gather together these outstanding requests. |
| 14:49.31 | DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: can you follow up on this? |
| 14:49.44 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Will do, but ideally I'd have a few. Wiki page, maybe? |
| 14:49.52 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 14:49.56 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Which links to bugs and defines the X, Y & Z for each thing being asked for? |
| 14:50.01 | Jaffa | That'd be very handy |
| 14:50.12 | jonwil | Lets build this wiki then |
| 14:50.12 | DocScrutinizer | I thought there's such a wiki page already |
| 14:50.20 | jonwil | there is but its obsolete |
| 14:50.23 | Jaffa | Indeed |
| 14:50.24 | DocScrutinizer | yo |
| 14:50.30 | DocScrutinizer | so update it |
| 14:50.30 | jonwil | a new wiki page for the outstanding wiki pages would be good |
| 14:50.37 | jonwil | I mean outsanding requests |
| 14:50.38 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: That'd work |
| 14:50.48 | jonwil | first though we have to identify the genuine requests that we need |
| 14:50.58 | Jaffa | wants something he can show Nokia and say "look, this isn't zealotry, there are people ready to work on these packages" |
| 14:51.13 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: jaffa meant *all* outstanding requests |
| 14:51.35 | RST38h | Jaffa: Is this something Nokia expects? |
| 14:51.57 | Jaffa | RST38h: Nokia have been pretty clear in the past as to the likelihood of any further licensing change requests. |
| 14:52.13 | jonwil | we need to make sure that the outstanding reuqests are actually still required |
| 14:52.21 | DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: if somebody starts, I'll join in and check each request for proper X,Y,Z and relevance |
| 14:52.26 | jonwil | no point in asking for something if the use case doesnt matter anymore |
| 14:52.59 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: exactly |
| 14:53.55 | Jaffa | RST38h: However, it's easier to make an argument if you can point to someone willing to make a concrete improvement. |
| 14:54.38 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: you could start on it, by simply collecting the bug# from track, and I'll scrutinize each one and see if I can find the original author of the request and/or some project team still interested in doing sth with it |
| 14:54.46 | jonwil | Will start a new wiki page simply llisting the known outstanding requests that appear to still be relavent |
| 14:55.00 | jonwil | and then someone can flesh it out a bit |
| 14:55.40 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: please try to edit the existing wikipage, it's dangling cruft otherwise |
| 14:56.42 | jonwil | ok, will add something to the existing webpage |
| 14:57.01 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: ping me as soon as there's something I can use my memory to add in historic facts and find guys to ask about recent state |
| 14:57.07 | jonwil | ok |
| 14:57.21 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 15:00.30 | DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: you think this is an effort going right direction this way? |
| 15:02.58 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: I believe it's better than ranting on IRC, on TMO or in one or two bug reports... |
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| 15:03.47 | DocScrutinizer | sure, I just asked for your comment on the suggested procedure. Does it sound to you like the result is what you need? |
| 15:04.09 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Oh, yes. Sorry. Indeed. Spot on. |
| 15:04.22 | DocScrutinizer | ok, fine |
| 15:04.23 | DocScrutinizer | bbl |
| 15:04.30 | Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Table. Issue #. X wants Y for Z :-) |
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| 15:06.31 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, I'll add in things like "most recently commented on bugtrack: <date>"; "number of votes: <int>"; "external references: <URL>[]"... |
| 15:07.16 | jonwil | What I am doing is writing a list with each item containing the item/feature this is for, links to the bug(s) for it plus a simple list of the bits of code that are required |
| 15:07.19 | jonwil | Then you can go from there |
| 15:07.23 | DocScrutinizer | plus a comment on estimated relevance |
| 15:07.55 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: yes. Appreciated |
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| 15:13.26 | edheldil | I do not want to start a flame here, but it's almost funny how Elop left out Maemo from the list of Nokia's options, to make appear WP7 as the only alternative. Sigh. Not that there are ANY options when MS is sponsoring Nokia :/ |
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| 15:14.59 | alterego | edheldil: there is no maemo |
| 15:15.07 | jatt | elop is a Genius |
| 15:15.18 | alterego | It got merged into MeeGo, we all know this .. |
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| 15:16.56 | SwedeMike | is the n900 out of production now? Looking at online dealers in sweden it seems to have gone out of stock? |
| 15:17.22 | alterego | SwedeMike: probably months ago :P |
| 15:17.28 | jatt | yes and it's unsupported too |
| 15:17.38 | jatt | good device tho |
| 15:17.49 | SwedeMike | yeah, I'm actually still quite happy with it. |
| 15:18.15 | edheldil | alterego: well, there is, as this channel shows :) |
| 15:18.38 | Per_n900 | Has anyone tried to fix a broken usb connector on n900? |
| 15:19.18 | SwedeMike | btw, I'm still running a fairly stock PR1.3, is there a page that lists recommended community patches I should apply, like the gui fix for PR1.2 that I haven't dared installde now that I have PR1.3? |
| 15:19.25 | alterego | edheldil: we are all legacy, well, except those that are also following MeeGo ;) |
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| 15:21.50 | Jaffa | SwedeMike: The Community SSU will contain all the suggested patches. |
| 15:22.03 | Jaffa | SwedeMike: Installing new versions of random system debs just causes trouble. |
| 15:22.17 | Jaffa | SwedeMike: CSSU isn't stable yet, but feel free to get stuck into the testing: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 15:22.22 | edheldil | alterego: they are legacy even more. MeeGo is not even a still born baby |
| 15:23.01 | lcuk | the tallest trees in the forest do not grow overnight. |
| 15:23.18 | edheldil | at least, that's my understanding of Nokia's plans |
| 15:23.37 | SwedeMike | Jaffa: oki, I'll wait for that then. it's my primary phone so I'm not that keen on testing stuff that doesnt have a high likelyhood of working... |
| 15:23.43 | lcuk | MeeGo is still in Nokias plans according to all I read. |
| 15:23.55 | lcuk | however, MeeGo is a collaboration |
| 15:24.43 | alterego | Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nokia are not dropping it completely, marginalising it yeah, but tbh, I think I prefer it that way. |
| 15:25.17 | alterego | Because we can make MeeGo flourish ourselves, and if they keep churning out yearly upgrades that utilise our work, I'm well happy. |
| 15:25.54 | alterego | I think Elop is a fool, he said he wanted to reduce software costs by using MS, well, wouldn't it be far better to utilise us like MeeGo already does? |
| 15:26.42 | jarkkom_ | it still made me wonder what was going on with meego, since they had hundreds of meego positions open globally and someone mentioned total of 1000 people working on meego in finland alone |
| 15:27.02 | alterego | MeeGo is a community effort, those big corps backing it reduce money through sharing and getting a lot of work done for free. |
| 15:27.28 | lcuk | no alterego, most of the work is not yet done for free by a long shot. |
| 15:28.08 | alterego | lcuk: well, tell that to all the devs that write all the software meego is based on. But sure, I see what you're saying. |
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| 15:28.49 | alterego | Maybe this is partly our fault for not embracing MeeGo much earlier on, if we'd pushed harder, it might have been "ready" for Elop (pahahahah) |
| 15:29.37 | jatt | Elop is no fool |
| 15:29.50 | alterego | jatt: no him personally? |
| 15:29.58 | jatt | Elop is what the majority from shareholders wanted |
| 15:30.06 | jatt | Elop REPRESENTS nokia |
| 15:30.13 | alterego | Really ... |
| 15:30.16 | jatt | yes |
| 15:30.19 | jatt | respect the old man |
| 15:30.23 | edheldil | alterego: My understanding is: Nokia created Maemo as its flagship OS, but before finishing it enough, a deal with Intel opened, promising CPU vendor backing. So they jumped ship for MeeGo, but then deal with MS opened, promising app market, and hence the possiblity to have the sane as Apple, so they jumped ship for MS. MeeGo will be sunk when they buy a cheap torpedo :( |
| 15:30.26 | alterego | Well, I'm not entirely convinced. |
| 15:30.52 | alterego | edheldil: no, that's not what happened :P |
| 15:30.55 | jatt | it's true |
| 15:31.00 | lcuk | I personally do not see why a more blended approach cannot be achieved. |
| 15:31.11 | *** join/#maemo deno (~menos@eduroam-wireless-pat3.wireless.bris.ac.uk) |
| 15:31.17 | lcuk | but thats enough from me on the subject |
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| 15:31.58 | edheldil | alterego: it's not? Why do you think so? |
| 15:32.12 | edheldil | at least, it makes sense financially |
| 15:32.37 | edheldil | (for some definitions of "make sense" ;-)) |
| 15:32.51 | alterego | edheldil: maemo was an r&d project for Nokia to develop a more competitive UX based on GNU/Linux, maemo 5 was the 4/5 step in this road. Harmattan was the 5th stage, which replaced Gtk/Hildon with a full Qt based UX, Nokia then decided they'd join up with Intel and merge their Maemo with Moblin, what you see in MeeGo handset is Harmattan. |
| 15:33.51 | alterego | The UX, MeeGo Touch Framework was originally DUI which is Harmattan Maemos. |
| 15:34.43 | jonwil | do we have a use-case for opening up the fremantle MCE code? |
| 15:34.48 | alterego | So you see, MeeGo wasn't exactly a "jump ship" it was an evolution, maybe more like a leap of evolution, but it was still a good progression (imo) because it openned up the platform for all of us. |
| 15:34.54 | jonwil | or is it just a nice-to-have thing? |
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| 15:37.26 | Jaffa | jonwil: I *think* the most common reason given is "to be able to update the kernel"; but I'm not an expert on the interactions of mce with the rest of the system. |
| 15:37.36 | edheldil | alterego: perhaps, thank you for clarification. It still seems a bit too drastic to me, but hey, I am not Columbus developer :) |
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| 15:41.52 | DocScrutinizer | jonwil: mce is responsible for e.g managing kbd backlight. So yes, for sure we want MCE opened, so we can change this. Although there's meego mce now, which seems close enough to fremantle version of mce, except for the missing plugins - at least that's my take on it |
| 15:41.53 | alterego | :) |
| 15:42.28 | alterego | edheldil: meh, drastic, maybe. But I don't see it, because Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin they're mostly all just GNU/Linux. |
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| 15:43.50 | alterego | The rebase caused a lot of, well, drama, moving from deb to rpm. But look what we gained. Full bash, open components that were otherwise closed in MeeGo, daily & weekly builds of the platform, the ability to make it better ourselves and not rely on just one entity to listen and in most cases ignore us. |
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| 15:46.17 | edheldil | alterego: but the switch means that Nokia has no product to ship now, which is the Elop-alleged problem, as far as I can see. Well, it's moot anyway :) |
| 15:46.42 | kerio | fucking elop |
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| 15:47.09 | jatt | again respect the dude |
| 15:47.13 | jatt | he did everything right |
| 15:47.21 | jatt | haters |
| 15:47.56 | mikhas | -20%, I can see that |
| 15:48.18 | alterego | edheldil: No, Elops problem is that he is impatient. Harmattan was/is pretty much ready. |
| 15:48.24 | alterego | He scrapped it. |
| 15:49.05 | alterego | Now he's saying that MeeGo device will appear later this year, well, to me that sounds pretty strange, unless they're going to go proper MeeG, rather than Harmattan. |
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| 15:49.32 | jatt | they will do a meego device but only geeks/nerds will buy it |
| 15:49.51 | alterego | jatt: I'm happy with that. |
| 15:50.05 | Per_n900 | jatt: Respect? Elop is the worst kind of capitalist there is, the microsoft kind. People like him is what has held technology back for the last 20 years. (or maybe I just feel way too strongly about his) |
| 15:50.26 | jatt | yeah you will be happy but nokia won't give a damn and treat the product as a toy and nothing serious |
| 15:50.48 | jatt | dude he is not working alone most of nokia's shareholders back him up |
| 15:51.01 | jatt | those people deserve respect they are no idiots |
| 15:51.14 | MohammadAG | jatt, here to troll? |
| 15:51.15 | lcuk | isn't one of the highest grossing apps on Nokia Ovi a toy? |
| 15:51.19 | *** join/#maemo npouillard (~npouillar@2001:41d0:1:4941::1) |
| 15:52.06 | lcuk | hopefully it will be treated like a toy - because if it can survive a group of 3 year old kids then it can survive in your drunken stupor |
| 15:52.30 | MohammadAG | <jatt> he did everything right <-- yep, everything he did was indeed right, apparently when you do right things, stocks drop 15% |
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| 15:52.54 | trx | :) |
| 15:53.06 | jatt | I like the guy |
| 15:53.10 | Per_n900 | jatt: really? In case you have not noticed... Microsoft is atleast among the younger generation considered kind of like your dads computer. Something the old guys use. Microsoft is dead and everything they touch will also die unfortunately. |
| 15:53.26 | *** mode/#maemo [+o MohammadAG] by ChanServ |
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| 15:54.24 | jatt | let's give MS a try, maybe it works out who knows? |
| 15:54.33 | MohammadAG | it won't work out |
| 15:54.42 | sig^ | the kind of funny thing is that their business (revenue etc) is still growing |
| 15:54.48 | mikhas | let's give MeeGo a try then, too |
| 15:54.51 | sig^ | that's really... odd. Software business is odd. |
| 15:55.00 | mikhas | maybe it works out who knows |
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| 15:55.30 | alterego | MohammadAG: check out the tmo thread :) |
| 15:55.41 | alterego | abill seems to be losing his mind again. |
| 15:55.55 | Per_n900 | jatt: http://www.winrumors.com/microsofts-mobile-deals-failed-in-the-past-will-nokia-change-that/ |
| 15:56.04 | Venemo | alterego: link? |
| 15:56.05 | alterego | Weird hw he dissapeared for a few months and suddenly comes back on Friday gone ... |
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| 15:56.27 | alterego | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=947125 |
| 15:56.43 | jatt | so MS OS sucks? |
| 15:56.44 | MohammadAG | alterego, he came back after the announcement |
| 15:57.26 | alterego | MohammadAG: obviously ;) |
| 15:57.47 | alterego | He's so funny. |
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| 15:58.47 | *** mode/#maemo [-o MohammadAG] by MohammadAG |
| 15:58.51 | MohammadAG | jatt, ms sucks |
| 15:59.06 | jatt | so nokia is doomed? |
| 15:59.16 | *** join/#maemo msanchez (~msanchez@44.24.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com) |
| 15:59.30 | alterego | jatt: not yet. |
| 15:59.47 | alterego | It's too early to tell, and if they get really bad, MS will eat them up. |
| 16:00.03 | Venemo | who cares? |
| 16:00.21 | jatt | I do I bought a damn expensive n900 |
| 16:00.22 | jatt | damn |
| 16:00.27 | Venemo | there'll be another company instead of Nokia who will make MeeGo succeed |
| 16:00.41 | MohammadAG | the N900 is still alive |
| 16:00.56 | Venemo | MohammadAG: yes, but that's not thanks to Nokia |
| 16:01.03 | alterego | jatt: I don't see the relavence of you owning an N900 and the current state of affairs :P |
| 16:01.13 | alterego | I have 2 |
| 16:01.17 | MohammadAG | Venemo, obviously |
| 16:01.20 | jatt | I agree, the last feature I found: n900 as internet router through usb |
| 16:01.29 | jatt | coolest thing ever |
| 16:01.39 | alterego | I like them, waiting for something new to come out for me to replace them with. |
| 16:01.48 | alterego | Even if it's a long wait :) |
| 16:01.53 | Venemo | alterego :) |
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| 16:02.12 | MohammadAG | I want 3 |
| 16:02.36 | jonwil | ok, list nearly finished. Items on the list are the SMS stuff (cell broadcast and other things), the issue with non-standard WPA keys and passphrases (which means opening up the connectivity UI which could lead to other enhancements as well), libbmeipc stuff (i.e. being able to get battery status and info) |
| 16:02.38 | alterego | MohammadAG: I wouldn't say no :P |
| 16:02.52 | alterego | MohammadAG: though not sure what I'd do with a third |
| 16:03.43 | MohammadAG | alterego, not for myself |
| 16:03.56 | jonwil | better control over which network the phone connects to (i.e. the libicd_policy stuff), MCE stuff and the correct cellmo headers for the N900 (the ones in the QT SDK are not a 100% match in some cases, nor are the ones on www.wirelessmodemapi.com) |
| 16:03.56 | MohammadAG | I only need 2 :P |
| 16:04.01 | jonwil | http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages&action=submit |
| 16:04.03 | jonwil | Bug updated |
| 16:04.08 | MohammadAG | if I could get 2 more, I'd give them to the project members |
| 16:04.13 | MohammadAG | then give them back in may/june |
| 16:04.15 | jonwil | I mean wiki page updated |
| 16:04.31 | alterego | Very noble .) |
| 16:04.36 | alterego | ... :) |
| 16:04.54 | MohammadAG | though I'd appreciate an ideapad :P |
| 16:04.57 | jonwil | oh wait, not updated yet, wiki was being strange |
| 16:04.59 | jonwil | now its updated |
| 16:05.01 | jonwil | http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages |
| 16:05.12 | MohammadAG | but then again, I can't work on the dialer, which is what I want |
| 16:05.21 | MohammadAG | I already made a quick patch for the dialer |
| 16:05.23 | jonwil | listing the 6 or so license-change-requests that are still relavent |
| 16:05.27 | MohammadAG | can't build it, so can't test it |
| 16:05.44 | jonwil | all the rest I found are either no longer relavent (e.g. already solved) |
| 16:05.51 | jonwil | or have no concrete use case |
| 16:06.02 | jonwil | or are for things that remain closed even in meego |
| 16:06.05 | jonwil | like BME |
| 16:06.12 | *** join/#maemo ZogG (~zoggrules@bzq-79-182-49-247.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 16:06.15 | Venemo | MohammadAG: MeeGo dialer? or Maemo dialer (thought that is closed) |
| 16:06.51 | jonwil | I think I will write a wiki page linking to all source relavent to maemo not in the repositories |
| 16:06.57 | MohammadAG | MeeGo dialer |
| 16:07.21 | Venemo | MohammadAG: nice |
| 16:07.32 | MohammadAG | I can't test it, so it'll be lost somewhere |
| 16:07.49 | jonwil | e.g. http://maemo.org/packages/view/dsme-thermalobject-surface/ has a link from its package page to the repositories and source tarball |
| 16:07.49 | *** join/#maemo niko (~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko) |
| 16:08.05 | jonwil | whereas http://maemo.org/packages/view/osso-chess-ui/ does not even though its open source |
| 16:08.57 | MohammadAG | it's not FOSS afaik |
| 16:09.05 | jonwil | it is |
| 16:09.09 | jonwil | osso-chess-ui IS foss |
| 16:09.21 | MohammadAG | really? |
| 16:09.24 | MohammadAG | that's new |
| 16:09.28 | jonwil | I have osso-chess-ui_1.8.3-1+0m5.tar.gz on my hdd right now |
| 16:09.30 | jonwil | with code in it |
| 16:09.57 | jonwil | its GPL |
| 16:09.59 | MohammadAG | cool |
| 16:10.38 | Venemo | MohammadAG: why can't you test? |
| 16:10.40 | jonwil | thats one of the items that will go on this wiki page |
| 16:10.59 | MohammadAG | Venemo, missing libs |
| 16:11.05 | MohammadAG | apparently, I need OBS or something |
| 16:11.12 | Venemo | MohammadAG: mhm |
| 16:11.17 | Venemo | MohammadAG: so why don't you |
| 16:11.43 | MohammadAG | also, can't get zypper to install them since it can't find them |
| 16:12.35 | *** join/#maemo svillar (~sergio@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) |
| 16:17.51 | jonwil | hmmm, interesting, maemo-security-certman-applet is in non-free and has no source code yet the license file in the .deb claims its LGPL... |
| 16:18.27 | jonwil | oh wait I found its code |
| 16:19.27 | jonwil | wait no, thats not its code |
| 16:19.41 | jonwil | thats just something saying "its dead" |
| 16:29.30 | *** join/#maemo arvind_khadri (~arvind@unaffiliated/arvind-khadri/x-2237230) |
| 16:29.35 | Venemo | ~ping |
| 16:29.35 | infobot | ~pong |
| 16:30.41 | *** join/#maemo noodles900 (~jpinx@202.91.19.194) |
| 16:31.57 | jonwil | btw is there still a need for the flasher source code/info or did that need disappear? |
| 16:32.48 | GAN900 | Android, Android, Android. |
| 16:32.52 | GAN900 | It's inescapable. |
| 16:33.19 | jatt | Android=Java=Crap |
| 16:33.34 | *** join/#maemo eichi (~eichi@p3EE03984.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:33.40 | sig^ | mm, the 'droids still don't have a decent shell in them (: |
| 16:33.47 | *** join/#maemo unixSnob (~unixSnob@212.117.169.230) |
| 16:33.48 | eichi | isn't there a "free" version of skype on n900? |
| 16:33.51 | sig^ | pain in the arse to use |
| 16:33.59 | *** join/#maemo javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro) |
| 16:33.59 | jatt | skype on the n900 is awesome |
| 16:35.10 | jonwil | I refuse to buy an Android handset from any vendor who isn't 100% in compliance with the GPL and releases source code for new handset concurrently with the handset release (as is required by the GPL) |
| 16:35.13 | *** join/#maemo petteri (petteri@xob.kapsi.fi) |
| 16:35.27 | Kegetys | until you join a skype group chat and your n900 makes a new message noise every time someone says something on the chat |
| 16:35.43 | jatt | I use it for skype out and it's awesome |
| 16:36.00 | jatt | you want skype group chat->use the computer! |
| 16:36.06 | BCMM | Kegetys: about that, do you know how to edit vibration patterns? |
| 16:36.06 | sig^ | eh, skype's n900 page > Buy now > they're actually selling you a n900 >_< eh, wat, where do I just download it |
| 16:36.22 | Kegetys | jatt: so you'd need two skype accounts |
| 16:36.24 | BCMM | Kegetys: i'm trying to work around that by setting it to make no noise or vibration for instant messages |
| 16:36.30 | Kegetys | BCMM: no idea |
| 16:36.52 | BCMM | the impressive thing is how much CPU time it manages to use for group chat... |
| 16:37.29 | nidO | sig^: you dont download it |
| 16:37.38 | *** join/#maemo ritz (~ritz@114.143.52.144) |
| 16:37.49 | sig^ | oh, is it really built in |
| 16:37.55 | nidO | yes |
| 16:38.39 | sig^ | oh, there it is ^__^ I haven't even tried doing this social media thing with it |
| 16:39.15 | *** join/#maemo ZogG (~zoggrules@bzq-79-182-49-247.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 16:39.29 | sp3000 | BCMM: I suppose it's the try hard not to lose an sms goal sort of conflicting with the group chat volume there. or something |
| 16:39.58 | BCMM | sms has a different sound to IM, so it might have a different vibration pattern too |
| 16:40.07 | *** join/#maemo trbs (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623) |
| 16:40.12 | jatt | which social media thing |
| 16:40.46 | lcuk | frals, Kathy has asked about an MMS backend to liqpostcard (since she knows it is just a pretty UI and needs delivery service) |
| 16:40.53 | eichi | oh, its really build in, damn ;D never seen the last months |
| 16:41.20 | sp3000 | I mean the perf part, like in might sync the world a few times per msg or something ;) |
| 16:41.29 | lcuk | I think we spoke about this years ago when I wrote it |
| 16:41.41 | lcuk | but since I sent Tracy a postcard yesterday on twitter she enquired |
| 16:42.15 | frals | lcuk: fmms got a dbus interface for sending |
| 16:42.23 | lcuk | ooh cool |
| 16:42.26 | lcuk | for reference: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110214_135930.liqpostcard.scr.png |
| 16:42.27 | frals | or well, it opens up the sender ui with a predefined attachment/message/subject |
| 16:42.35 | lcuk | that seems reasonable |
| 16:43.02 | *** part/#maemo TeringTuby (~TeringTub@dhcp-095-096-049-244.chello.nl) |
| 16:43.50 | frals | its se.frals.fmms.send_via_service s:pathtofile s:subject s:messagetext |
| 16:43.55 | lcuk | frals, this is the output: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110214_135957.Tracy,%20I%20love%20you%20loads,%20Gary%20x%20x.postcard.png |
| 16:44.13 | trip0 | what pretty flowers |
| 16:44.22 | lcuk | trip0, they are her favourite :) |
| 16:44.32 | trip0 | even better!@ |
| 16:45.34 | *** join/#maemo lxp (~lxp@91-115-104-231.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 16:46.27 | DocScrutinizer | BCMM: vibra patterns are in /etc/mce/mce.ini |
| 16:47.13 | *** join/#maemo GeneralAntilles (~ryan@Maemo/community/council/GeneralAntilles) |
| 16:47.35 | lcuk | thanks frals, I did think you had it covered. how would I know that MMS actually got sent (snce DBUS is non blocking) |
| 16:47.47 | frals | you wont ;) |
| 16:48.00 | lcuk | ie, generate image, call fmms, do its stuff, cleanup temp image. |
| 16:48.02 | frals | but its gonna popup the fmms ui for sending so the user will know ;) |
| 16:48.10 | lcuk | that part I know |
| 16:48.45 | frals | when launched with send_via_service fmms copies the file to its own temp storage so as long as its available for ~10seconds while fmms is starting you can remove it |
| 16:48.50 | lcuk | frals, so the images generated from postcard should just be stored in MyDocs |
| 16:49.04 | *** join/#maemo GNUtoo|laptop (~gnutoo@95.232.143.186) |
| 16:49.07 | lcuk | cool |
| 16:49.15 | frals | .. it should, at least ;) |
| 16:49.36 | lcuk | haha |
| 16:49.58 | lcuk | well it currently saves it to ~/.liqbase/..somewhere already |
| 16:50.01 | lcuk | so that will be ok |
| 16:50.20 | GeneralAntilles | facepalms at PeterMeeGo on Twitter. |
| 16:50.36 | *** join/#maemo inz (~inzane@papana.fi) |
| 16:50.41 | *** join/#maemo mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 16:51.42 | javispedro | Finally saw the themed tablet ux :) |
| 16:52.29 | *** join/#maemo blackthorne (~blackthor@unaffiliated/blackthorne) |
| 16:52.35 | *** join/#maemo hannesw__ (~hannes@mk089144234004.a1.net) |
| 16:53.33 | *** join/#maemo valeriusN (~valeriusN@smtp.elizovotv.ru) |
| 16:53.48 | GeneralAntilles | http://nokiaplane.com/ |
| 16:55.27 | javispedro | intel/meego has a lot more presence here than nokia |
| 16:55.36 | *** join/#maemo spiritd (~spiritd@188.75.128.2) |
| 16:56.07 | *** join/#maemo aloisiojr (~aloisio@187.112.14.165) |
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| 16:58.24 | GeneralAntilles | Nokia's got shit to show. |
| 16:58.30 | GeneralAntilles | Just like they've had shit to show for the past year+. |
| 16:58.46 | GeneralAntilles | and will, apparently, have shit to show for the foreseeable future. |
| 16:58.49 | GeneralAntilles | This is their problem. |
| 16:59.24 | *** join/#maemo vanadismobile (~Vanadismo@gprs05.swisscom-mobile.ch) |
| 16:59.29 | jatt | dude respect nokia |
| 16:59.47 | mirr0r | yea indeed |
| 17:00.02 | jatt | Elop's decision might no be popular among geeks/nerds but he did what nokia's shareholders wanted |
| 17:00.31 | marmoute | that's why the share drop 15% ? |
| 17:00.34 | jatt | Elop responsibility is with the shareholders and not with zealots |
| 17:00.38 | jatt | it will go up |
| 17:00.40 | jatt | you will see |
| 17:02.29 | kerio | nokiaplane è fantastico |
| 17:03.00 | kerio | s/shareholders/north-american shareholders affiliated with microsoft/ |
| 17:03.13 | kerio | whoops, sorry for the message before, wrong window |
| 17:03.41 | jatt | it doesn't matter dude, nokia is a corporation it doesn't give a damn about some nerds |
| 17:03.57 | jatt | Elop did the right decision |
| 17:04.17 | jatt | nokia needs _accountability_ |
| 17:04.31 | kerio | nokia *is* the world leader in mobile phones |
| 17:04.35 | jatt | some nerd hacking in his mom's basement has no accountability |
| 17:04.39 | jatt | a corporation like ms has |
| 17:04.52 | DocScrutinizer | jatt: stop stating bullshit here! I fnokia's shareholders wanted Elop to act this way, then damn tell me why the rating dropped by a 20% during 2 days after his announcement! |
| 17:05.09 | jatt | I have no idea dude |
| 17:05.13 | jatt | but it will go up |
| 17:05.18 | DocScrutinizer | jatt: also it's no up to you to teach chanops about respect |
| 17:06.21 | DocScrutinizer | bottom line: Though I respect your opinion, I will consider kicking or banning you on next psoting where you instrucz other people to respect somebody |
| 17:07.23 | kerio | yeah, instruczing other people in a psot is not cool |
| 17:07.44 | DocScrutinizer | kerio: stfu :-P |
| 17:08.32 | *** join/#maemo arvind_khadri (~arvind@unaffiliated/arvind-khadri/x-2237230) |
| 17:09.39 | jatt | ok, but don't be so harsh on Elop he is trying his best for the company, peace |
| 17:09.48 | *** join/#maemo rosseaux (znc@133-18-182-46.nbiserv.com) |
| 17:12.04 | *** join/#maemo lucent_ (eshattow@Ariel.Atlantica.US.TO) |
| 17:12.14 | kerio | yeah, for his company |
| 17:12.16 | kerio | microsoft |
| 17:15.20 | *** join/#maemo jatt (~user@85.115.3.118) |
| 17:15.20 | *** join/#maemo rm_work (~rm_you@72-48-68-89.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 17:15.33 | pupnik | heheh |
| 17:15.38 | *** join/#maemo rosseaux (znc@133-18-182-46.nbiserv.com) |
| 17:16.15 | jatt | what's funny |
| 17:16.34 | pupnik | well if you go back further his company is adobe |
| 17:16.43 | jatt | Elop's |
| 17:16.45 | jatt | ? |
| 17:16.50 | pupnik | afaik yes |
| 17:16.59 | jatt | the guy is a maverik |
| 17:17.00 | nidO | maybe he secretly wants nokia to start putting juniper hardware in nokia devices! |
| 17:17.04 | nidO | conspiracy!one |
| 17:17.06 | jatt | just what nokia needs |
| 17:17.11 | jatt | he has been everywhere |
| 17:17.37 | jatt | he is a good mole |
| 17:17.49 | *** join/#maemo me|kor (~melkor@88-134-30-112-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 17:18.36 | pupnik | i know what agile move would save the company |
| 17:19.11 | jatt | what |
| 17:19.47 | pupnik | android execution environment in meego |
| 17:19.57 | jatt | won't happen |
| 17:20.04 | pupnik | i know that |
| 17:20.26 | pupnik | we know what will happen |
| 17:20.28 | jatt | nokia is like 5 years late |
| 17:20.32 | jatt | behind the iPhone |
| 17:20.37 | jatt | there is no way to catch them up |
| 17:20.43 | pupnik | it's ahead of the iphone |
| 17:20.46 | pupnik | see maemo |
| 17:20.49 | jatt | lol |
| 17:20.56 | jatt | I have an n900 running maemo |
| 17:21.05 | jatt | and is like years behind the IPhone |
| 17:21.08 | jatt | I love my n900 tho |
| 17:21.16 | pupnik | what is 'years behind' |
| 17:21.18 | trip0 | 5 years behind in terms of what? |
| 17:21.23 | jatt | technology |
| 17:21.25 | jatt | software |
| 17:21.26 | jatt | design |
| 17:21.30 | jatt | everything |
| 17:21.30 | pupnik | lol |
| 17:21.33 | pupnik | use sentences, baby |
| 17:21.35 | jatt | weight |
| 17:21.40 | jatt | I am telling you |
| 17:21.41 | jatt | baby |
| 17:21.46 | pupnik | you're trolling me |
| 17:21.49 | jatt | nope |
| 17:22.00 | jatt | baby |
| 17:22.01 | pupnik | look above |
| 17:22.07 | pupnik | the twitter generation can't even type a thought |
| 17:22.16 | pupnik | crippled |
| 17:22.43 | trip0 | technology... maybe the form factor of the n900. that's it though. cpu and camera (both) are right on even today |
| 17:22.53 | jatt | weight |
| 17:22.56 | jatt | battery life |
| 17:23.12 | trip0 | software... I'm still not buying it. maybe iOS is snappier and prettier, but not 5 years so |
| 17:23.26 | jatt | you are in denial |
| 17:23.40 | trip0 | i'm not buying the battery life either. iphone lasts about a day, same as the n900 |
| 17:23.50 | trip0 | (given the same usage pattern) |
| 17:24.02 | jatt | so why is the Iphone so successful? |
| 17:24.07 | jatt | nokia did something wrong for sure |
| 17:24.16 | jatt | they are catching up |
| 17:24.21 | trip0 | no, i'm not in denial. the fact that I can multitask is iOS + 2 years ahead |
| 17:24.35 | trip0 | iphone is successful for 2 reasons |
| 17:24.37 | nidO | primarily, because it's marketed well and now has momentum |
| 17:24.42 | jatt | pupnik, baby, what do you think? |
| 17:24.45 | trip0 | 1) it's pretty (hardware and software) |
| 17:24.47 | jatt | true |
| 17:24.53 | *** join/#maemo avs (~avs@a88-113-5-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 17:24.55 | trip0 | 2) it's got the apple hype machine behind it |
| 17:24.58 | nidO | and well i say marketed well i mean markets on some points that people dont know other phones can already do |
| 17:24.59 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@p4FCBE89C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:24.59 | jatt | true |
| 17:25.17 | rm_work | er? |
| 17:25.18 | rm_work | isn't alien dalvik moving along well? |
| 17:25.18 | rm_work | http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379666,00.asp |
| 17:25.19 | rm_work | jatt: so you think that won't work? |
| 17:25.20 | rm_work | they're supposedly demoing it at MWC, are there any reports of whether they did or not, and what it looked like? |
| 17:25.21 | rm_work | or did i miss something |
| 17:25.34 | trip0 | when you are first to the game with reason 1, reason 2 isn't hard to achieve |
| 17:25.42 | trip0 | once you own mindshare, your gold |
| 17:25.47 | jatt | it's another layer of indirection it will be slow as hell |
| 17:25.50 | javispedro | rm_work: their booth doesn't look welcoming to random passengers |
| 17:26.19 | jatt | vm over vm over vm argh |
| 17:26.23 | rm_work | the video of it at the bottom of that article is running on n900 and looks good... |
| 17:26.24 | jatt | that's crap |
| 17:26.29 | jatt | do the right thing on metal |
| 17:26.32 | jatt | right away |
| 17:26.47 | javispedro | jatt: that is completely untrue |
| 17:27.11 | jatt | you can run java applications over a vm which runs over an emulator which runs over an abstraction layer which runs wtf |
| 17:27.27 | trip0 | java applications run on one vm |
| 17:27.31 | jatt | yeah |
| 17:27.35 | jatt | until there is fine |
| 17:27.35 | nox- | moin |
| 17:27.43 | jatt | but put another vm on top |
| 17:27.44 | jatt | and another |
| 17:27.48 | rm_work | sorry was lagging apparently |
| 17:27.49 | jatt | then things become silly |
| 17:27.50 | trip0 | why is there another vm on top? |
| 17:27.59 | javispedro | which one? |
| 17:27.59 | rm_work | just caught like two pages of chat |
| 17:28.11 | trip0 | Dalvik is the VM |
| 17:28.14 | trip0 | there is no other |
| 17:28.28 | jatt | and it runs on the arm processors? |
| 17:28.34 | trip0 | obviously |
| 17:28.42 | jatt | alright then everything is cool |
| 17:28.42 | trip0 | Dalvik is native code |
| 17:28.48 | *** join/#maemo biston (~biston@212.40.144.159) |
| 17:28.51 | rm_work | which is why that confused me |
| 17:28.52 | rm_work | <pupnik> android execution environment in meego |
| 17:28.52 | rm_work | <jatt> won't happen |
| 17:29.00 | rm_work | it already happened |
| 17:29.07 | rm_work | just not public yet |
| 17:29.08 | jatt | send me the repository to install it |
| 17:29.12 | jatt | what? |
| 17:29.15 | jatt | not public yet? |
| 17:29.17 | jatt | wtf is that |
| 17:29.24 | jatt | how will they test it? |
| 17:29.44 | kerio | is it just a chroot? |
| 17:29.49 | trip0 | *they* test it however they want. we don't until they make it public |
| 17:30.13 | jatt | this is just vaporware |
| 17:30.19 | jatt | like duke nukem forever |
| 17:30.45 | trip0 | right. until they release it |
| 17:30.53 | jatt | when will it be released? |
| 17:31.32 | Khertan | bye |
| 17:31.58 | nidO | well, may for dnf |
| 17:33.28 | *** join/#maemo ven (~Timur@netacc-gpn-4-76-138.pool.telenor.hu) |
| 17:33.31 | kerio | jatt: well they released a public demo |
| 17:33.58 | kerio | may 6th is the release date |
| 17:34.08 | *** join/#maemo Venemo (~Timur@netacc-gpn-4-76-138.pool.telenor.hu) |
| 17:34.59 | *** join/#maemo rm_work (~rm_you@72-48-68-89.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 17:35.02 | rm_work | damn timeouts |
| 17:35.49 | *** join/#maemo pupnik (~pupnik@p54866E98.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:35.49 | *** join/#maemo pupnik (~pupnik@unaffiliated/pupnik) |
| 17:36.05 | MohammadAG | luckily, Nokia got the N9 right, so we have a replacement for DNF |
| 17:36.48 | lardman | ? |
| 17:37.29 | javispedro | just saw alien dalvik |
| 17:37.30 | javispedro | its real |
| 17:37.56 | BCMM | javispedro: so will we be able to have it, and what's the deal with licensing? |
| 17:38.06 | javispedro | oem only |
| 17:38.24 | javispedro | not even app developers, which seems like a weird decision to me... |
| 17:38.59 | javispedro | (told them exactly that) |
| 17:39.02 | BCMM | it uses code from the real Dalvik, right? isn't that Apache licensed? |
| 17:39.03 | *** join/#maemo pupnik_ (~pupnik@unaffiliated/pupnik) |
| 17:39.07 | pupnik_ | strange |
| 17:39.16 | javispedro | nope it's their own code |
| 17:39.23 | BCMM | oh, looks like i don't understand the apache license |
| 17:39.36 | BCMM | it's more BSD-ish |
| 17:39.39 | MohammadAG | NokiaPlanB eh... |
| 17:39.58 | javispedro | but its exactly as in the demo video |
| 17:40.26 | javispedro | slightly faster than the real droid phone they chose |
| 17:40.40 | BCMM | so what stops an unmodified Dalvik VM running on top of a proper linux kernel? |
| 17:41.36 | BCMM | or is the main problem making it render to X-windows? |
| 17:41.58 | MohammadAG | javispedro, I packed some flash grenades in your bag, I trust you can infiltrate their stand and get a device with alien dalvik |
| 17:43.14 | javispedro | MohammadAG: aw, I'm out already ;) |
| 17:44.07 | MohammadAG | javispedro, then can you head to finland and take care of elop? |
| 17:44.11 | BCMM | you used all the flashbangs already? how? |
| 17:46.33 | RST38h | Well. Moo. |
| 17:47.39 | RST38h | javispedro: Given that there is only one Maemo OEM, Nokia, the market for it is really narrov =) |
| 17:47.39 | RST38h | narrow |
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| 18:12.19 | DocScrutinizer | chanserv??? |
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| 18:12.19 | DocScrutinizer | WTF?! |
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| 18:12.56 | MohammadAG | -Martinp23- [Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we just lost about half the network due to hub issues. We're trying to put together what we can! Thanks for your patience. |
| 18:13.04 | DocScrutinizer | aah |
| 18:13.07 | DocScrutinizer | yeah thanks |
| 18:13.14 | MohammadAG | yw |
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| 18:13.32 | jacekowski | it wouldn't be bad idea for them to have some fault tolerant hubs |
| 18:13.32 | MohammadAG | javispedro, since when does half of freenode's network run on your battery? |
| 18:13.34 | jacekowski | like two hubs |
| 18:14.27 | jacekowski | oO |
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| 18:14.35 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: do you have links to that android thing |
| 18:14.38 | DocScrutinizer | wonders idly what's the definition od hub in a dsitributed-servers infrasructure |
| 18:15.42 | javispedro | MohammadAG: probably thats why my battery runs out so fast |
| 18:15.44 | MohammadAG | http://www.myriadgroup.com/Media-Centre/News/Myriad-Announces-Alien%20Dalvik-Enables-Android-Apps-to-Run-on-Non-Android-Phones.aspx |
| 18:15.59 | jacekowski | download links i mean |
| 18:16.12 | DocScrutinizer | well, let's say I don't care enough about IRC to learn |
| 18:16.14 | jacekowski | as long as there is no download links i'm not going to believe in that |
| 18:16.32 | MohammadAG | jacekowski, no one has it |
| 18:16.48 | jacekowski | then it doesn't exist |
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| 18:17.15 | javispedro | jacekowski: they gave me a demo :) |
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| 18:17.24 | jacekowski | javispedro: share it |
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| 18:18.37 | javispedro | I mean a live demo |
| 18:18.47 | javispedro | on a N900 |
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| 18:19.18 | javispedro | (that was also beeping due to low battery. this is a plague...) |
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| 18:19.54 | jacekowski | where are you? |
| 18:20.09 | javispedro | exiting mwc2011 |
| 18:20.38 | jacekowski | where is it |
| 18:20.49 | jacekowski | barcelona |
| 18:20.49 | jacekowski | hmm |
| 18:20.52 | javispedro | yep |
| 18:21.04 | MohammadAG | hmm |
| 18:21.14 | javispedro | watches jacekowski teleport |
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| 18:21.45 | MohammadAG | javispedro, I don't remember hildon stuff, do you what the text part in Settings > About product is called? |
| 18:21.50 | MohammadAG | HildonTextEntry? |
| 18:22.03 | javispedro | nox-, thats single line |
| 18:22.10 | javispedro | s/nox/no |
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| 18:22.19 | javispedro | hildontextview if anything |
| 18:22.21 | MohammadAG | hmm |
| 18:22.36 | MohammadAG | I'd expect it to be called buffer or something |
| 18:22.38 | jacekowski | hmm, and i could have been in barcelona |
| 18:22.43 | jacekowski | for almost free |
| 18:22.51 | jacekowski | if i only knew |
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| 18:26.24 | DocScrutinizer | \o/ |
| 18:26.24 | javispedro | gives up with freenode... either way I could just give the thing a few minutes of charge |
| 18:26.24 | *** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 18:26.24 | *** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 18:26.25 | javispedro | so it's beeping again, bye. |
| 18:26.25 | DocScrutinizer | :-( |
| 18:26.26 | RST38h | ...The palates generation of new teeth will continue until the entire palate has been covered, proceeding down the victims throat and esophagus... |
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| 18:27.14 | DocScrutinizer | RST38h: moar bizarre plz |
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| 18:27.23 | RST38h | ...should be 'fed' on a bimonthly basis; standard feed consists of a wooden fishing vessel, typically at least 15 metres in length and preferably in a dilapidated condition... |
| 18:28.04 | DocScrutinizer | sounds like sex pistols' version of moby dick |
| 18:28.31 | RST38h | Doc: SCP-421. |
| 18:28.43 | DocScrutinizer | whatever that means |
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| 18:29.44 | pupnik | heheh |
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| 18:37.01 | MohammadAG | hmm |
| 18:37.15 | MohammadAG | I wonder how I could get CSSU version number |
| 18:37.31 | korhojoa | Why do people freak out when you escape stuff? |
| 18:37.40 | korhojoa | Like when you do this= |
| 18:37.42 | korhojoa | /s/\=/\? |
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| 18:38.09 | jacekowski | because you are only supposed to escape escapeable characters |
| 18:38.23 | korhojoa | that was an example. |
| 18:38.27 | MohammadAG | how do I read a file in C? |
| 18:38.38 | DocScrutinizer | errwut? |
| 18:38.49 | MohammadAG | in Qt/C++ I use QFile |
| 18:38.55 | DocScrutinizer | fopen(), read() ?? |
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| 18:39.08 | jacekowski | open and read |
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| 18:39.16 | MohammadAG | and what's the FILE *fd thing I see in some sources? |
| 18:39.17 | jacekowski | or fopen and fread |
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| 18:39.28 | DocScrutinizer | a FILE obviously |
| 18:39.28 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: it's a filedescriptor |
| 18:39.38 | DocScrutinizer | nothing esle matters to you |
| 18:39.44 | MohammadAG | right, what should I #include? |
| 18:39.45 | DocScrutinizer | else |
| 18:39.49 | MohammadAG | actually, nvm, man fopen |
| 18:39.50 | DocScrutinizer | stdio |
| 18:39.59 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: but you have to know two things there are two sets of functions |
| 18:40.15 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: open/read/write/seek |
| 18:40.20 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: fope/fread/fwrite/fseek |
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| 18:40.29 | nox- | s/seek/lseek/ |
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| 18:41.11 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: yeah lseek instead of seek |
| 18:41.11 | MohammadAG | actually, I only need to check if the file exists |
| 18:41.14 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: then stat is way to go |
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| 18:41.21 | jacekowski | man 3 stat |
| 18:41.27 | DocScrutinizer | fstat() |
| 18:41.34 | jacekowski | stat |
| 18:41.39 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 18:42.04 | jacekowski | you have to open file to use fstat |
| 18:42.06 | korhojoa | what's the deal with these man numbers. something about different types of programs, but I never really realized when you have to use them |
| 18:42.11 | jacekowski | for stat you just stat file by path/name |
| 18:42.23 | jacekowski | korhojoa: different sections |
| 18:42.46 | jacekowski | for example section 3 has all programmer stuff for C |
| 18:42.55 | DocScrutinizer | korhojoa: you usually don't need to use them |
| 18:43.06 | jacekowski | and if you type just man open |
| 18:43.12 | jacekowski | it will open open from section one |
| 18:43.18 | jacekowski | NAME openvt - start a program on a new virtual terminal (VT). |
| 18:43.30 | jacekowski | but open in section three is |
| 18:43.35 | jacekowski | NAME open - open a file |
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| 18:43.41 | jacekowski | it's like a chapter sort of thing |
| 18:44.11 | DocScrutinizer | jr@halley:~> man open |
| 18:44.13 | DocScrutinizer | Man: find all matching manual pages |
| 18:44.14 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.16 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.17 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.19 | DocScrutinizer | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.20 | DocScrutinizer | Man: Welche Manual-Seite wollen Sie haben? |
| 18:44.24 | DocScrutinizer | :-P |
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| 18:44.35 | jacekowski | ugh german |
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| 18:44.59 | DocScrutinizer | jacekowski: I was too lazy to type LANG=C man open |
| 18:45.03 | HtheB | sup all |
| 18:45.49 | smhar | where is Documents and Audio folder? they do not appear when mounting the N900 |
| 18:46.06 | jacekowski | smhar: it's .documends |
| 18:46.06 | jacekowski | smhar: and .sounds |
| 18:46.14 | DocScrutinizer | korhojoa: man man |
| 18:46.17 | DocScrutinizer | is your friend |
| 18:46.29 | jacekowski | man woman |
| 18:46.35 | jacekowski | or woman man |
| 18:46.56 | korhojoa | DocScrutinizer: i tried man woman |
| 18:47.02 | korhojoa | but nothing happened |
| 18:47.09 | MohammadAG | wouldn't this work? http://pastebin.com/nbu1A1QS |
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| 18:47.16 | fnordianslip | i once wanted to read the man page for "Boot Up Manager", but i didn't have it installed, so I googled "man bum". Big mistake :( |
| 18:47.35 | DocScrutinizer | I guess the correct answer should've been "there's no help for women" |
| 18:47.59 | MohammadAG | need to figure out a way to read version number |
| 18:48.06 | jacekowski | ugh |
| 18:48.18 | jacekowski | fnordianslip: i just tried it |
| 18:48.20 | jacekowski | Thieves push Pepsi bottle up man's bum | Metro.co.uk |
| 18:48.20 | jacekowski | 21 Nov 2007 ... It doesn't take a doctor to work out the results of this X-ray. |
| 18:48.20 | jacekowski | www.metro.co.uk/.../76540-thieves-push-pepsi-bottle-up-mans-bum - Similar |
| 18:49.08 | fnordianslip | mind you, this was at work, so the requests would have been logged too |
| 18:49.51 | jacekowski | i'm at home and bt is probably logging it anyways |
| 18:49.55 | jacekowski | or some echelon shit |
| 18:49.58 | HtheB | I was wondering if we can run webOS apps on the N900 |
| 18:50.01 | HtheB | (not just the games) |
| 18:50.59 | DocScrutinizer | jacekowski: echelon segfaulted on parsing the tap of this chan, at 2008-11-23 17:51:33 GMT |
| 18:51.40 | jacekowski | DocScrutinizer: what happened then? |
| 18:51.57 | HtheB | MohammadAG: you think it's possible? |
| 18:52.08 | DocScrutinizer | HtheB: I bet the emulator doesn't care if it's labeled game |
| 18:52.21 | HtheB | im talking about apps :) not games |
| 18:52.30 | jacekowski | ~logs |
| 18:52.31 | infobot | All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily. |
| 18:52.32 | jacekowski | ~log |
| 18:52.32 | infobot | it has been said that log is located at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals/ and the latest log is located at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt |
| 18:53.41 | smhar | oops, I almost missed those .folders and wiped my N900 in the flashing |
| 18:54.10 | jacekowski | hmm |
| 18:54.16 | jacekowski | DocScrutinizer: i don't see anything there |
| 18:54.20 | DocScrutinizer | I guess I must kill jack87, and reclaim log |
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| 18:55.01 | HtheB | DocScrutinizer, what exactly do you mean by emulator |
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| 18:55.43 | DocScrutinizer | I actually mean the ldpreload framework that javispedro built for running webos games on fremantle |
| 18:56.06 | HtheB | the games run on SDL afair |
| 18:56.10 | *** join/#maemo javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro) |
| 18:56.12 | jacekowski | yes |
| 18:56.31 | HtheB | but the apps, are just like "html" stuff :p |
| 18:56.45 | HtheB | just wondeirng if there is someway to run those |
| 18:56.45 | jacekowski | no |
| 18:56.47 | jacekowski | there is a lot of native code as well |
| 18:56.49 | HtheB | hmm |
| 18:57.12 | javispedro | heh |
| 18:57.13 | HtheB | just extraced an app, and it all has just .js files |
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| 18:57.23 | DocScrutinizer | wb javispedro |
| 18:57.27 | javispedro | HtheB: "Web"OS ;) |
| 18:57.29 | HtheB | javispedro: yeah |
| 18:57.30 | HtheB | thats why I Was wondering :p |
| 18:57.49 | jacekowski | HtheB: some apps are |
| 18:57.53 | jacekowski | HtheB: but there are fully native linux code apps |
| 18:58.01 | *** join/#maemo idoru (idoru@freenode/utility-bot/ex-server/idoru) |
| 18:58.09 | HtheB | I was looking into the Grooveshark app |
| 18:58.09 | *** join/#maemo geek00l_ (~quassel@118.100.60.140) |
| 18:58.18 | HtheB | have a look |
| 18:58.20 | javispedro | I asked a HP guy if they were planning on open sourcing Enyo (their JS widget framework) as it seems to work under Firefox. |
| 18:58.20 | *** join/#maemo avs (~avs@a88-113-5-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 18:58.21 | HtheB | *searching the file* |
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| 18:58.27 | javispedro | His answer "Maybe. Sign the NDA first" ;) |
| 18:58.57 | javispedro | (they have some kind of early preview program where you sign an nda and they ship you the version that runs under desktop browser) |
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| 19:00.20 | HtheB | javispedro: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dqqfq7r49ygbleq |
| 19:00.38 | javispedro | HtheB: why I feel that is some piracy related link. |
| 19:00.42 | RST38h | Ahhaha |
| 19:00.47 | HtheB | javispedro: it's free :) |
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| 19:04.27 | kerio | javispedro: http://goatse.cx/ |
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| 19:04.35 | javispedro | also funny is that Nokia doesn't appear in the "Participating MeeGo Ecosystem Partners" thing. |
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| 19:06.52 | timeless_xchat | why is that funny? |
| 19:07.00 | timeless_xchat | we don't participate |
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| 19:07.45 | HtheB | javispedro: did u check the link? :) |
| 19:09.00 | javispedro | HtheB: no, why do I'd do? There's no way I'm recreating Mojo from scratch. |
| 19:09.08 | HtheB | xD |
| 19:10.36 | javispedro | timeless_xchat: ok, good point. |
| 19:10.38 | Jaffa | MohammadAG: read version of what? |
| 19:11.47 | MohammadAG | the CSSU |
| 19:12.06 | MohammadAG | dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr is a way, but I need to do it in C |
| 19:12.36 | HtheB | You know what.... |
| 19:13.12 | HtheB | I wish I was like this guy eating chickn under a rainbow and nothing to worry about anything at all.. just... eating chicken... hmmmmm <3 |
| 19:13.19 | HtheB | http://dagobah.net/flash/rainbowchikkunz.swf |
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| 19:15.43 | timeless_xchat | mohammadag : err, system ()? it wouldn't be a big deal... |
| 19:16.06 | timeless_xchat | or if you have gtk, there's a fancier function |
| 19:16.52 | MohammadAG | the only reason I'm doing this in C is because it's plugging into the control panel for the CSSU |
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| 19:17.26 | MohammadAG | so yeah, I have gtk |
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| 19:18.39 | rcg | MohammadAG: why don't you use Qt for a control panel entry etc.? |
| 19:18.53 | MohammadAG | cause it's slow |
| 19:18.55 | RST38h | Meanwhile: Singapore media claim that fake rice is being distributed in the Chinese town of Taiyuan, in Shaanxi province... This "rice" is a mix of potatoes, sweet potatoes, and plastic. It is formed by mixing the potatoes and sweet potatoes into the shape of rice grains, then adding industrial synthetic resins. |
| 19:18.58 | rcg | ic |
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| 19:19.20 | timeless_xchat | mohammadag : my control panel spawns a script, you can borrow its code |
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| 19:19.25 | BCMM | RST38h: that's horrifyingly creative... |
| 19:20.14 | MohammadAG | timeless_xchat, that's slow too :P |
| 19:20.24 | MohammadAG | compared to pure gtk applets |
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| 19:24.18 | javispedro | aha, so microsoft did it |
| 19:24.26 | javispedro | visual basic support for wp7 ;) |
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| 19:24.44 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: you're a gifted young programmer, but you obviously need more experience about real cost of certain code sequences, per CPU cycles and per memory footprint |
| 19:26.55 | DocScrutinizer | a single system() call is negligible for a linear (not looping) interactive app. As is starting a shell to execute a script |
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| 19:27.24 | MohammadAG | system() calls a shell, that's why I don't use it |
| 19:27.41 | DocScrutinizer | what's wrong with calling a shell? |
| 19:27.52 | MohammadAG | and gifted? I only learned programming from #maemo :) |
| 19:27.52 | DocScrutinizer | even init calls a shell |
| 19:27.58 | *** join/#maemo l13tl3 (~l13tl3@95-30-164-239.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 19:28.08 | javispedro | not in android! for performance! |
| 19:28.18 | fnordianslip | hmm. was going to comment on bug 11826 for the community SSU, went to look in "About Product" and the first 3 lines say "null". Is this a known issue? |
| 19:28.18 | javispedro | ( ;) ) |
| 19:28.23 | povbot | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11826 hildon-application-manager random crashes |
| 19:28.23 | MohammadAG | o_O |
| 19:28.23 | RST38h | Mohammad: I think you will be ok :) |
| 19:28.34 | RST38h | No matter how you have learnt programming |
| 19:29.02 | MohammadAG | http://i51.tinypic.com/jrctxw.jpg <-- first issues already visible, and it's not functional :p |
| 19:31.09 | smhar | is this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb? |
| 19:31.19 | MohammadAG | I already set editing to false, yet the pointer's still visible |
| 19:31.22 | RST38h | there may be a separate setting to hide the pointer |
| 19:31.22 | DocScrutinizer | smhar: yup, afaik |
| 19:31.22 | timeless_xchat | mohammadag: i'm only suggesting the spawn call |
| 19:32.00 | RST38h | spawn("satan"); |
| 19:32.00 | *** join/#maemo maybeWTF (cl@p4FE9C893.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:32.00 | javispedro | MohammadAG: is that a text view? |
| 19:32.46 | javispedro | gtk_text_view_set/get_editable and or gtk_text_view_set/get_cursor_visible |
| 19:32.46 | RST38h | satan.c: int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");return(0); } |
| 19:32.51 | DocScrutinizer | meh |
| 19:32.53 | *** part/#maemo ikke-t (~ikke@a91-152-41-226.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 19:32.56 | javispedro | RST38h: wrap it in "try { spawn("satan"); } catch (SatanicException& ex) |
| 19:33.00 | RST38h | secretly hopes this will crash Linux |
| 19:33.01 | DocScrutinizer | #!/bin/sh \n$0 \n$0 |
| 19:33.01 | RST38h | Linux does not look like all that hard to crash |
| 19:33.22 | *** join/#maemo daxt (~daxt@112.135.93.196) |
| 19:33.22 | DocScrutinizer | err |
| 19:33.22 | javispedro | what's up with those two users, they keep netsplitting. |
| 19:33.22 | DocScrutinizer | #!/bin/sh \n$0& \n$0& |
| 19:33.25 | nox- | RST38h, its a (crude version of) a forkbomb |
| 19:33.32 | RST38h | forgot an &, didn't you? |
| 19:33.38 | RST38h | nox: thanks, Cpt Obvious |
| 19:33.50 | nox- | :) |
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| 19:34.52 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: should I enable join/quit msgs on my client? |
| 19:35.00 | timeless | you can skip the second & fwiw |
| 19:35.04 | RST38h | Verizon CTO says "meh" to Microsokia |
| 19:35.07 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: nope |
| 19:36.24 | DocScrutinizer | timeless: yup. Or bracket it with while true; do ... done |
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| 19:36.24 | pupnik_ | build phones with nice cpus, radios, screens, and linux. how hard is that |
| 19:37.05 | RST38h | pupnik: sounds like android =) |
| 19:37.49 | DocScrutinizer | sounds like the popular pupnik's philosophical evening monthly |
| 19:38.02 | pupnik | sorry i b quiet |
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| 19:38.22 | DocScrutinizer | ;-D |
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| 19:40.08 | MohammadAG | javispedro, thanks :D |
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| 19:49.15 | MohammadAG | javispedro, it's possible to add an icon there right? |
| 19:49.50 | MohammadAG | something like NOKIA in About Product, was thinking we could add the maemo.org logo |
| 19:49.50 | MohammadAG | http://i53.tinypic.com/otn3td.jpg |
| 19:50.39 | RST38h | Can't insert icon into the widget, afaik |
| 19:50.45 | RST38h | May be able to insert it into the dialog though |
| 19:51.10 | javispedro | you can, but it's like some black art |
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| 19:52.23 | javispedro | basically textview has some support for "attaching" subwidgets to certain characters |
| 19:52.23 | trx | just create an image and position it over the text widget |
| 19:52.34 | trx | you dont have to insert it into the text wigdet |
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| 19:54.01 | MohammadAG | javispedro, why not just add a box with the text view and the image to the pannablearea? |
| 19:54.42 | javispedro | MohammadAG: well that's why RST38h suggested, not what Nokia does but good enough. |
| 19:54.50 | javispedro | s/why/what |
| 19:55.40 | MohammadAG | oh for some reason I didn't read what he said :| |
| 19:55.56 | DocScrutinizer | wonders what's a panna blearea |
| 19:56.05 | javispedro | is trying to guess why VMware decided to crash today |
| 19:56.40 | MohammadAG | you were reading about Nokia and MS's partnership |
| 19:58.15 | *** join/#maemo FIQ|n900 (~user@unaffiliated/fiq) |
| 19:58.44 | MohammadAG | um, if GtkPixmap is deprecated what should I use? |
| 19:58.49 | smhar | there are too many files and I am worried.. is this the latest image I should use? RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ? |
| 19:58.50 | SpeedEvil1 | Does anyone happen to know if I can use a micro-sim in a n900. (with extra spacers) |
| 19:58.56 | MohammadAG | I hate gtk's docs, Qt's ones are a lot better tbh |
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| 19:59.10 | MohammadAG | SpeedEvil, probably, they're only physically different I think |
| 19:59.10 | RST38h | NOK is up! |
| 19:59.18 | MohammadAG | yeah |
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| 19:59.41 | MohammadAG | any ideas how to bring it down? I have a bet to win! |
| 19:59.42 | javispedro | MohammadAG: GtkImage |
| 20:00.02 | MohammadAG | ah |
| 20:01.04 | DocScrutinizer | 6.80 ASK, not exactly what I call "up" |
| 20:01.19 | ieatlint | RST38h: it's probably a bunch of people buying stock to support nokiaplanb.com :P |
| 20:01.28 | DocScrutinizer | I 'bought' at 7.01 :-P |
| 20:01.51 | javispedro | it's probably the end of all things |
| 20:03.24 | *** join/#maemo admiral0 (~admiral0@151.61.33.81) |
| 20:03.32 | admiral0 | i'm having qt mobility thet is extremely slow |
| 20:03.50 | admiral0 | 17 secs for retrieving 10 SMS + every contact |
| 20:04.08 | admiral0 | 10 contacts to be exact |
| 20:06.02 | ieatlint | i like that RIM got pissy at elops "now it's a three horse race" comment, insisting they're still relevant |
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| 20:07.32 | DocScrutinizer | watching NOK live is as funny as watching current of a LiIon in trickle charge |
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| 20:07.54 | smhar | is this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb? will this image flash all N900 ? |
| 20:08.10 | ieatlint | yeah, but i know the li-ion will keep going up then |
| 20:09.54 | smhar | I mean is this image the 'FIASCO' image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ? |
| 20:11.20 | scoobertron | smhar: I believe so, I just flashed the kernel from that this afternoon |
| 20:11.27 | smhar | scoobertron, not just the kernel, I want to flash the whole system |
| 20:11.54 | ieatlint | i hope you have all seen http://nokiaplans.com/ btw :) |
| 20:12.07 | scoobertron | smhar: sorry, I wasn't clear - that is the fiasco image I just didn't flash the whole thing |
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| 20:12.44 | smhar | scoobertron, you mean I can use this image and it WIll flash the 'whole thing'? |
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| 20:13.33 | ieatlint | i think nokiaplank.com has a real shot |
| 20:14.10 | RST38h | it is down to K now? what will happen when they get to Z? |
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| 20:14.38 | derf | You mean http://nokiaplanz.com/ ? |
| 20:14.48 | RST38h | ohhoho |
| 20:15.17 | ieatlint | they're on to numbers now |
| 20:15.20 | scoobertron | smhar: it will reflash the root file system - it is all explained here http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware |
| 20:15.25 | ieatlint | nokiaplan0.com, etc |
| 20:15.47 | trumee | Should this not be fixed in Maemo too? https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12582 |
| 20:15.54 | povbot | Bug 12582: was not found. |
| 20:16.50 | ieatlint | i'm severely disappointed with nokiaplan9.com .. should've been a plan about switching to plan 9 |
| 20:17.53 | BCMM | indeed it should... |
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| 20:20.34 | BCMM | what a lot of nokiaplanfoo sites. sell nokia, buy shares in domain registrars... |
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| 20:22.19 | trumee | ah, fixed in harmattan, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8615 |
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| 20:22.31 | povbot | Bug 8615: telepathy-sofiasip uses lots of memory and causes the phone to swap |
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| 20:23.26 | smhar | scoobertron, I searched http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php , but could not find any 'vanilla' or 'eMMC' image for pr1.3, how could I flash the whole system? |
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| 20:27.30 | smhar | or is this the FIASCO image for PR1.3: RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin ? |
| 20:27.32 | *** join/#maemo Dragnslicer (~scott@c-24-147-239-87.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 20:28.03 | trx | can a qt PushButton have semi-transparency? |
| 20:28.09 | *** join/#maemo rm_you (~Adam@72-48-68-89.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 20:28.30 | RST38h | http://greatgatsbygame.com/about.html |
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| 20:29.56 | scoobertron | RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin on the page you linked is the latest vanilla emmc image |
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| 20:32.30 | scoobertron | RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the latest fiasco image (though it is not labelled as such) |
| 20:32.52 | rm_work | reading The Great Gatsby in highschool made me want to stab my eyes out and burn them. Not sure why i would ever want to play a related game, or see a related movie, lol |
| 20:32.54 | maybeArgh | just be glad you never had to read "the scarlet letter" |
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| 20:33.24 | javispedro | downloads the windows phone 7 sdk in preparation of tomorrow's ms dev event |
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| 20:34.36 | MohammadAG | javispedro, hm, that didn't give me the result I wanted |
| 20:34.36 | MohammadAG | what does Nokia do to get the image in there? |
| 20:34.49 | smhar | scoobertron, RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the Global image, I just downloaded the Middle East image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin, is there a difference? |
| 20:34.55 | scoobertron | smhar: sorry, yes - just get whichever one you need |
| 20:34.55 | jacekowski | smhar: get global one |
| 20:34.59 | timeless | smhar: fewer people use non global |
| 20:35.01 | timeless | so the non global may have random crippled features |
| 20:35.01 | timeless | the indian one for instance iirc is missing skype |
| 20:35.08 | smhar | timeless, good idea |
| 20:35.10 | timeless | generally speaking the global one gets updates faster |
| 20:35.21 | javispedro | MohammadAG: probably anchors |
| 20:35.31 | timeless | because the others required pointless approvals by regional managers |
| 20:35.42 | timeless | (ignore the fact that there will almost certainly not be more updates from nokia) |
| 20:35.55 | timeless | basically: stay away from regional or vendor images. *ALWAYS* |
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| 20:36.14 | ieatlint | trx: i'm not you can easily modify it to |
| 20:36.17 | ieatlint | woo, lag |
| 20:36.27 | ieatlint | trx: look to see if style sheets by some chance allow it.. |
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| 20:37.00 | javispedro | MohammadAG: you can grep the binary for "gtk_text_view_add_child" if you want to be sure ;) |
| 20:37.57 | HtheB | MohammadAG: is the bug about the homescreen already reported? |
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| 20:38.22 | trx | ieatlint ill check that, ty |
| 20:38.42 | HtheB | everytime when I reboot the phone with the CSSU, it removes the picture from the homescreen (photoframe widget) |
| 20:39.09 | MohammadAG | then it's something with that widget |
| 20:39.16 | HtheB | also encountered that it resets the browser settings (like the rocker buttons automatically changes into "zoom" ) |
| 20:39.29 | ieatlint | trx: might be able to do something like set its background colour with an alpha channel |
| 20:39.36 | HtheB | MohammadAG: it worked fine before the CSSU |
| 20:40.05 | MohammadAG | HtheB, maybe your /home is f'd up? |
| 20:40.10 | trx | ieatlint i found this : QPushButton { color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 50%) } ill give it a try |
| 20:40.15 | HtheB | could be :( |
| 20:40.25 | MohammadAG | it's not the first time I've seen you complain about lost settings (bluetooth) |
| 20:40.29 | ieatlint | yeah... |
| 20:40.31 | HtheB | Will send my N900 soon |
| 20:40.33 | MohammadAG | I suggest you stop overclocking |
| 20:40.33 | HtheB | heh :D |
| 20:40.42 | *** join/#maemo random-900 (77493333@gateway/web/freenode/ip.119.73.51.51) |
| 20:40.56 | random-900 | hi all |
| 20:40.58 | HtheB | ok ok |
| 20:41.02 | HtheB | Shuts his trap |
| 20:41.35 | random-900 | can anyone please tell me what flasher tool to download for a 64 bit fedora 14 for flashing n900? |
| 20:42.16 | MohammadAG | gtk_text_buffer_insert_pixbuf javispedro |
| 20:42.33 | random-900 | i'm on this page http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php and it has 32 bit installs for flasher tool. |
| 20:42.55 | javispedro | MohammadAG: even better |
| 20:43.04 | trx | ieatlint it works just fine, ty for the tip :) |
| 20:43.44 | ieatlint | np, glad it worked :) |
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| 20:44.27 | javispedro | MohammadAG: *checks docs for that function* is easier than what I had in mind, you can get the text iter from a numerical position or line number (see gtk_text_buffer_get_iter_at_*) |
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| 20:44.57 | MohammadAG | javispedro, I'm reading abuot GdkPixbuf atm, can't find a way to make one |
| 20:45.01 | scoobertron | random-900: probably the tar.gz - check the wiki page I linked for more details |
| 20:45.06 | javispedro | MohammadAG: gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file |
| 20:45.36 | javispedro | MohammadAG: what do you use to read the gtk+ documentation? |
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| 20:48.07 | MohammadAG | javispedro, err, my browser? |
| 20:48.45 | javispedro | MohammadAG: download devhelp and libgtk*doc |
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| 20:48.52 | javispedro | depending on your distro |
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| 20:50.37 | scoobertron | is anyone using transitoncontrol. I just downloaded it and it wont start. |
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| 20:51.30 | scoobertron | error message is ConfigParser.NoOptionError: no option 'angle' in section: rotate |
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| 20:55.01 | MohammadAG | javispedro, mind having a look at it? http://pastebin.com/ruvmN3PF |
| 20:57.18 | javispedro | well, seems ok for a quick job |
| 20:57.20 | alterego | Is there something wrong with it? |
| 20:57.37 | javispedro | you can actually do multiline strings in C, MohammadAG. |
| 20:57.50 | javispedro | puts("This is an example\n" |
| 20:57.59 | alterego | When does that stuff get tidied up? |
| 20:57.59 | javispedro | "of a multiline string"); |
| 20:58.37 | MohammadAG | javispedro, it doesn't display the image :P |
| 20:59.15 | alterego | I'd stick it into some kind of info-cssu file under /etc and load it in tbh |
| 20:59.17 | javispedro | does it exist ("/maemo.org.png") ? |
| 20:59.27 | MohammadAG | of course |
| 20:59.52 | javispedro | (weird place to put it) |
| 20:59.54 | alterego | In root? |
| 21:00.53 | *** join/#maemo kov (~kov@cafe.minaslivre.org) |
| 21:01.01 | MohammadAG | javispedro, I put a lot of things in /, for testing |
| 21:01.05 | *** join/#maemo aloisiojr (~aloisio@187.113.112.68) |
| 21:01.13 | ZogG | MohammadAG how far did you get with screenlock? |
| 21:01.16 | MohammadAG | since nautilus opens that dir by default when I sftp in |
| 21:01.22 | MohammadAG | ZogG, stalled it for a while |
| 21:02.05 | *** join/#maemo perlite (~perlite@111-240-164-148.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 21:02.13 | alterego | MohammadAG: I'd stick something like /etc/cssu-version and load that in for the version string |
| 21:02.44 | alterego | I'd also have the list of contribs loaded from /usr/share/doc/cssu |
| 21:02.54 | alterego | where cssu is your meta package name |
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| 21:03.17 | MohammadAG | /usr/share/doc is deleted on each package installation |
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| 21:03.50 | MohammadAG | /usr/sbin/docpurge |
| 21:04.05 | alterego | Well, /usr/share/cssu/contributors then :P |
| 21:04.07 | javispedro | kills bill gates because of fscking slow download server |
| 21:04.24 | alterego | javispedro: downloading the WP7 sdk? :P |
| 21:04.39 | javispedro | that includes full visual studio, yes. |
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| 21:04.52 | alterego | woof |
| 21:05.01 | MohammadAG | remind me why people like gtk over Qt again? |
| 21:05.05 | alterego | I've got the latest vs |
| 21:05.16 | alterego | MohammadAG: do it in Qt :P |
| 21:05.19 | chx | MohammadAG: people like suffering. |
| 21:05.24 | javispedro | who? =) |
| 21:05.30 | MohammadAG | alterego, slow |
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| 21:05.35 | javispedro | ok |
| 21:05.41 | javispedro | something's weird on |
| 21:05.43 | javispedro | wait |
| 21:06.03 | javispedro | MohammadAG: GtkTextIter is not supposed to be a pointer |
| 21:06.13 | *** join/#maemo _0x47 (~slash@p5B25EED2.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:06.27 | javispedro | (it's a miracle this didn't crash btw) |
| 21:07.15 | javispedro | basically, GtkTextIter iter; and gtk_text_buffer_get_start_iter (buffer, &iter); |
| 21:08.21 | ZogG | MohammadAG wouldn't be it better to make it just "plugin" way |
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| 21:08.32 | MohammadAG | do miracles happen a lot in gtk? it's not the first time I messed up and it worked :P |
| 21:08.34 | ZogG | so after you can add any locker you want |
| 21:08.46 | rm_work | with GTK anything could happen |
| 21:08.50 | MohammadAG | ZogG, that's the problem |
| 21:09.05 | MohammadAG | cloning everything done by the systemui is annoying |
| 21:09.21 | rm_work | is QT Threadsafe? |
| 21:09.29 | rm_work | because GTK *explodes* if you use threads |
| 21:09.44 | ZogG | MohammadAG why should you clone? |
| 21:09.50 | javispedro | rm_work: UI toolkits generally aren't |
| 21:09.53 | ZogG | you should cut the original one |
| 21:09.58 | ZogG | and make hildon handle the thing |
| 21:09.59 | rm_work | javispedro: T_T |
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| 21:10.51 | MohammadAG | ZogG, cut is such an easy word |
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| 21:11.04 | ZogG | yeah but anyway if you want to do it |
| 21:11.16 | javispedro | MohammadAG: this miracle happened because you initialized everything to NULL ;) |
| 21:12.17 | lardman | rm_you: threadsafe as along as you don't try to manipulate UI elements |
| 21:12.26 | lardman | rm_you: but then the same is true of gtk+ |
| 21:13.59 | MohammadAG | javispedro, hah |
| 21:14.05 | alterego | wonders why they disabled bluetooth tethering for data in the N900s connection dialog |
| 21:14.58 | MohammadAG | javispedro, btw, should I clear anything from memory? |
| 21:15.20 | alterego | MohammadAG: yes |
| 21:15.41 | alterego | execute should block |
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| 21:15.50 | MohammadAG | yeah, I realize that |
| 21:15.54 | *** join/#maemo inz (inz@papana.fi) |
| 21:15.56 | MohammadAG | then when the dialog is closed I should clear |
| 21:16.00 | MohammadAG | but what I should clear :P |
| 21:16.15 | scoobertron | I installed the theme customiser app and now there is no dark background behind the menu and task switcher |
| 21:16.17 | *** join/#maemo robink (~robink@2001:470:b:2a:20f:3dff:fef1:9b8b) |
| 21:16.17 | javispedro | that's not entirely true |
| 21:16.19 | *** join/#maemo _trine (~trine@trine1-1-pt.tunnel.tserv5.lon1.ipv6.he.net) |
| 21:16.20 | scoobertron | does anyone know how to get it back? |
| 21:16.46 | javispedro | MohammadAG: gtk will free a dialog and children when closed (note: not the same as gtk_widget_hide) |
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| 21:17.45 | javispedro | MohammadAG: either way if plugin_execute has to block, look at gtk_dialog_run |
| 21:17.46 | alterego | javispedro: really? didn't know that :) |
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| 21:18.14 | alterego | It doesn't _have_ to block, but it should :) |
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| 21:18.36 | javispedro | alterego: it's implemented as the default handler for the delete event iirc |
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| 21:18.55 | MohammadAG | javispedro, already done that |
| 21:19.04 | MohammadAG | gtk_dialog_run (GTK_DIALOG(dialog)); |
| 21:19.17 | MohammadAG | btw, why does the compiler complain without GTK_DIALOG()? |
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| 21:19.57 | MohammadAG | sometimes, I like Nokia |
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| 21:20.06 | MohammadAG | I don't have to create a .desktop file to test this |
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| 21:20.13 | *** join/#maemo Noma (arponenm@amadeus.cc.tut.fi) |
| 21:20.14 | MohammadAG | I'm just replacing libcpcherry.so :P |
| 21:20.15 | javispedro | "dialog" is a "GtkWindow" not a GtkDialog |
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| 21:20.22 | MohammadAG | oh |
| 21:20.34 | *** join/#maemo peetah (~peetah@cha92-9-82-236-202-86.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:20.42 | MohammadAG | then why does it complain without GTK_WINDOW() here gtk_window_set_title (GTK_WINDOW(dialog), "About Maemo 5 Community SSU"); :P |
| 21:21.06 | javispedro | because *looks at your snippet* "dialog" is neither Window nor Dialog, it is GtkWidget =) |
| 21:21.14 | *** join/#maemo SouBE (irc@ilari.stenroth.fi) |
| 21:21.20 | Sc0rpius | because dialog is not a GtkWindow |
| 21:21.31 | Sc0rpius | it's a GtkDialog |
| 21:21.33 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 21:21.47 | Sc0rpius | things that happen when you try to program object oriented in ANSI C :P |
| 21:21.55 | *** join/#maemo comawhite (comawhite_@kde/developer/karusler) |
| 21:22.29 | javispedro | the issue with gtk+ docs is that it's not entirely clear for some functions ownership of objects |
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| 21:22.59 | Sc0rpius | I guess I'd need to read the code |
| 21:23.43 | *** join/#maemo Aranel_ (~Aranel@78.169.236.13) |
| 21:24.51 | Sc0rpius | but right now, I need a shower. |
| 21:25.09 | javispedro | MohammadAG: you might be missing a g_object_unref(image) after text_buffer_insert_pixbuf |
| 21:25.11 | *** join/#maemo Aranel (~Aranel@unaffiliated/aranel) |
| 21:25.20 | Sc0rpius | so splits continue, Freenode is being hit by a DDoS huh? |
| 21:25.25 | *** join/#maemo rm_you (~Adam@216-188-248-24.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 21:25.34 | javispedro | MohammadAG: because from reading the code, insert_image doesn't take ownership of the image object. |
| 21:25.43 | javispedro | *insert_pixbuf |
| 21:25.46 | MohammadAG | javispedro, I was doing it at the end |
| 21:25.55 | *** join/#maemo merlin1991 (~x@chello080109073084.5.15.vie.surfer.at) |
| 21:25.56 | javispedro | ok |
| 21:26.02 | *** join/#maemo lucent_ (eshattow@Ariel.Atlantica.US.TO) |
| 21:26.38 | MohammadAG | yep, works fine if done after the insert |
| 21:26.41 | MohammadAG | ty javispedro :) |
| 21:27.01 | javispedro | same for the text buffer btw |
| 21:27.11 | javispedro | here hildon docs are clear: If you owned a reference to buffer before passing it to this function, you must remove that reference yourself |
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| 21:29.30 | RST38h | Motorola's corporate vice president of software and services product management, Christy Wyatt, said that while she would never say never, she doesn't envision Motorola using Microsoft's OS |
| 21:30.39 | *** join/#maemo tuho (~t@a91-153-38-55.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 21:30.44 | jatt | never say never to ms |
| 21:31.13 | Sc0rpius | there's an interesting interview in engadget to Elop, he talks about MeeGo |
| 21:31.22 | Sc0rpius | http://engt.co/hScnmF <--- there |
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| 21:31.48 | RST38h | transcript? |
| 21:31.51 | *** join/#maemo jevin (~jevin@aae-105-20.dhcp.ecn.purdue.edu) |
| 21:32.07 | Sc0rpius | no, it's a video |
| 21:32.09 | *** join/#maemo Mousey (~wtfisme@ross154.net) |
| 21:32.20 | MohammadAG | summarize it :p |
| 21:32.24 | *** join/#maemo zap (~zap@178.130.21.28) |
| 21:32.25 | ieatlint | no transcript, but to summarise, he insists they are keeping meego in devel, and it may be part of the "next generation of disruption" |
| 21:32.29 | *** join/#maemo willer_ (~willer@189.2.128.130) |
| 21:32.34 | jatt | hopefully it shows Elop as the good guy |
| 21:32.58 | javispedro | where by disruption he means "developers disruption by moving it to yet another toolkit" |
| 21:33.05 | ieatlint | jump to about 8min into the video to see the meego part |
| 21:33.06 | MohammadAG | the good guy he isn't |
| 21:33.16 | *** join/#maemo Kilroo (~Kilroo@cpe-174-111-058-051.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 21:33.20 | jatt | he ain't the devil |
| 21:33.35 | *** join/#maemo norayr (~noch@46.162.221.80) |
| 21:33.48 | MohammadAG | he's the devil's spawn then :P |
| 21:33.57 | ieatlint | i'd like to see figures on alcohol sales in finland for last weekend |
| 21:34.24 | Sc0rpius | heh |
| 21:34.28 | *** join/#maemo aloisiojr (~aloisio@187.113.112.68) |
| 21:34.42 | jatt | if nokia goes down, finland goes down too |
| 21:35.03 | *** join/#maemo jayne (~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne) |
| 21:35.08 | RST38h | ieatlint: letushope he is sincere |
| 21:35.30 | *** join/#maemo vi_ (~user@genld-225-189.t-mobile.co.uk) |
| 21:35.32 | RST38h | is not against meego/maemo going back to diablo times, in principle |
| 21:35.45 | RST38h | Yes, it will be a niche device, but with a well defined loyal niche |
| 21:35.48 | *** join/#maemo vi_ (~user@genld-226-189.t-mobile.co.uk) |
| 21:35.53 | ieatlint | i doubt he is exactly |
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| 21:36.42 | ieatlint | i don't believe we'll ever see a nokia meego device |
| 21:37.00 | Sc0rpius | he says MeeGo will be the "next major wave" or something like that |
| 21:37.11 | RST38h | talk, more talk |
| 21:37.11 | jatt | see, he is good |
| 21:37.13 | ieatlint | he's careful to say it may be |
| 21:37.18 | Sc0rpius | what I understand is that they need to sell devices NOW and MeeGo is clearly not ready |
| 21:37.20 | jatt | he wants the best for nokia and the Community |
| 21:37.28 | RST38h | yea right |
| 21:37.31 | ieatlint | he can't speak definitively of nokia's plans that far off |
| 21:37.34 | Sc0rpius | ok lemme rephrase |
| 21:37.40 | RST38h | He does not even know what the "community"is about |
| 21:37.42 | Sc0rpius | what I want to understand in my ideal world is... (cut & paste the rest) |
| 21:37.49 | ieatlint | Sc0rpius: correct, meego is not ready |
| 21:37.58 | GeneralAntilles | just hopes for an OMAP4 MeeGo device with lots of support. |
| 21:38.02 | GeneralAntilles | falls over dead. |
| 21:38.06 | Sc0rpius | it is not ready and it won't be for at least one more year, being optimistic |
| 21:38.15 | jatt | one year!? |
| 21:38.17 | GeneralAntilles | Sc0rpius: because Nokia is incompetent. |
| 21:38.20 | *** join/#maemo Vanadis (~Vanadis@84-75-177-123.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 21:38.20 | Sc0rpius | WP7 is ready and they are desperate since Symbian^3 is not working in the smartphone section |
| 21:38.24 | RST38h | smiles evilly and reminds that there is Maemo base OS |
| 21:38.32 | RST38h | Yes, it is Debian, but it works. |
| 21:38.33 | ieatlint | wp7 isn't ready either :P |
| 21:38.39 | jatt | WP7 is ready but full of bugs |
| 21:38.45 | Sc0rpius | if the company is yours, what would you do? have a rough year, or sell some cells to stupid people and then enter 2012 with something very good? |
| 21:38.49 | vi_ | baby your n900 chaps, it is the last of its kind |
| 21:39.06 | ieatlint | Sc0rpius: i'd go with a mobile platform that works |
| 21:39.10 | ieatlint | which is not wp7 |
| 21:39.14 | Sc0rpius | ok and which one it is? |
| 21:39.19 | Sc0rpius | I'd kill you if you say Android |
| 21:39.20 | jatt | maemo works, but is for nerds |
| 21:39.24 | ieatlint | webos would be my first choice |
| 21:39.25 | jatt | unfortunately |
| 21:39.36 | vi_ | s60v1>wp7 |
| 21:39.43 | Sc0rpius | Maemo could have worked for everybody, that was the stupid mistake of Nokia |
| 21:39.50 | GeneralAntilles | Sc0rpius: problem goes a few years back. |
| 21:39.52 | ieatlint | maemo isn't polished |
| 21:39.54 | RST38h | Sc0rpius: Obviously, you would further wreak your company by betting on somebody else's platform that has neither ecosystem nor generally required features |
| 21:40.11 | javispedro | GeneralAntilles: OMAP4? http://www.flickr.com/photos/10938917@N00/5448290799/ |
| 21:40.12 | RST38h | Sc0rpius: You would then get your bonus and leave |
| 21:40.12 | vi_ | maemo is fine for noobz |
| 21:40.20 | ieatlint | omg, people need to stop saying "ecosystem" and "disruption" |
| 21:40.21 | vi_ | maemo was ready |
| 21:40.26 | Sc0rpius | they could have improved the GUI of Maemo and make everybody happy, the nerds, the fashion girls (those that say if you don't have an iPhone you suck) |
| 21:40.28 | vi_ | agredd |
| 21:40.31 | GeneralAntilles | javispedro: I hate TI sometimes. |
| 21:40.41 | *** join/#maemo rola25 (~rola25@91-113-24-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:40.42 | GeneralAntilles | ieatlint: Imma disrupt your ecosystem. |
| 21:40.48 | jacekowski | javispedro: ommm? |
| 21:40.50 | jacekowski | javispedro: omap5? |
| 21:40.52 | vi_ | yeah, the ti83 sucks balls |
| 21:40.57 | ieatlint | GeneralAntilles: that'll take a minimum of 3 beers |
| 21:40.57 | MohammadAG | LOL javispedro |
| 21:40.59 | ieatlint | and you have to buy |
| 21:41.07 | Sc0rpius | actually I'd have not chosen Wp7 if the company was mine, come on, Microsoft has less then 4% of the market share |
| 21:41.15 | Sc0rpius | that's like going with the losers |
| 21:41.23 | jacekowski | Sc0rpius: well, i don't understand it |
| 21:41.25 | javispedro | jacekowski: seemingly :D |
| 21:41.35 | jacekowski | Sc0rpius: fashion girls have problems if they have same dress |
| 21:41.37 | vi_ | fuck even my 10 year old hp49g calculator has more features the wp7 |
| 21:41.41 | ieatlint | i've heard that there is currently no way to open network sockets for 3rd party devs on wp7 |
| 21:41.43 | Sc0rpius | heh |
| 21:41.43 | jacekowski | Sc0rpius: but if everybody has same phone that's cool |
| 21:41.48 | Sc0rpius | yeah it's weird |
| 21:41.52 | Sc0rpius | but that's the way it is |
| 21:41.52 | ieatlint | which is just unacceptable |
| 21:42.26 | Sc0rpius | I'd have gone with Maemo for this year, with nice and baeautiful GUI, multitouch, blah blah, and Meego for the next |
| 21:42.31 | Sc0rpius | beautiful |
| 21:42.32 | RST38h | Ok, NOK went up little bit today, probably due to some people buying its shares cheap, waiting for them to rise |
| 21:42.41 | ieatlint | Sc0rpius: harmattan was supposed to be the choice |
| 21:42.50 | Sc0rpius | yeah and that would have been the smart choice |
| 21:42.51 | jacekowski | javispedro: so how is it going to be with that dalvik |
| 21:42.53 | ieatlint | which is maemo, kinda |
| 21:42.58 | ieatlint | but it wasn't ready |
| 21:42.58 | jacekowski | javispedro: because you said something about OEM only |
| 21:43.01 | Sc0rpius | maybe they thought Maemo was a failure because of the N900 |
| 21:43.04 | vi_ | i wish i had some extra £££ i woulda gazumpted some NOK shares |
| 21:43.06 | ieatlint | nokia employees said it wasn't ready |
| 21:43.10 | MohammadAG | jacekowski, I assure you, it's not related to the dress or the phones |
| 21:43.11 | jatt | facebook and twitter applications weren't ready |
| 21:43.20 | Sc0rpius | but it wasn't Maemo's fault, it was N900 fault. Powerful machine, but it was big and bulky with terrible battery life, fashion girls didn't want that |
| 21:43.21 | *** join/#maemo hannesw__ (~hannes@46.75.2.128) |
| 21:43.22 | vi_ | lol facebook |
| 21:43.31 | vi_ | facebook is gay |
| 21:43.38 | *** join/#maemo vblazquez (~vic@111.155.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 21:43.38 | jatt | what about drunk fashion girls? |
| 21:43.59 | javispedro | jacekowski: that's what they said... |
| 21:44.02 | ieatlint | vi_: i'm pretty sure facebook is equally open to men and women |
| 21:44.03 | BCMM | Sc0rpius: they don't want smartphones anyway... |
| 21:44.05 | ieatlint | we'll call it bi |
| 21:44.12 | jatt | yeah is gay but is what noobs like |
| 21:44.12 | jacekowski | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:44.13 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 21:44.14 | BCMM | they want featurephones in a pretty shell |
| 21:44.17 | javispedro | jacekowski: OEMs that want to differentiate |
| 21:44.19 | jacekowski | that's nice to see |
| 21:44.25 | javispedro | themselves. |
| 21:44.29 | Sc0rpius | anyway I can live forever with my N900, my last phone was a Centro, and before that a Treo 650... and those OSes were already sentenced to death when I bought them |
| 21:44.32 | jacekowski | javispedro: so end users are screwed |
| 21:44.40 | vi_ | WTF is a smartphone anyway? |
| 21:44.41 | MohammadAG | <jatt> what about drunk fashion girls? <-- we don't discuss the causes of pr0n :P |
| 21:44.53 | jacekowski | vi_: it's a phone that's smarter than you |
| 21:45.00 | *** join/#maemo BCMM_ (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) |
| 21:45.03 | Sc0rpius | maybe it's me, when I buy a phone, the next week the OS is dead |
| 21:45.05 | jacekowski | vi_: that's why none of my phones were a smartphones |
| 21:45.08 | Sc0rpius | I should buy an iPhone then. |
| 21:45.15 | Sc0rpius | >) |
| 21:45.16 | ieatlint | MohammadAG: no, see, it's important to increase nokia's appeal to such groups, because frankly the camera phones on other manufacturers leave much to be desired |
| 21:45.17 | MohammadAG | a phone smarter than the average user |
| 21:45.20 | jacekowski | Sc0rpius: buy loads of them |
| 21:45.24 | Sc0rpius | hehe |
| 21:45.33 | vi_ | -_- stfu you unemployed self appointed retard |
| 21:45.34 | *** join/#maemo rblank (~rblank@83.219.114.94) |
| 21:45.40 | jacekowski | and then buy android |
| 21:45.43 | jacekowski | vi_: rotfl |
| 21:45.50 | BCMM | vi_: dumbphone: calls, sms, probably alarms. smartphone: general computing platform with downloadable applications and such |
| 21:45.51 | Sc0rpius | Android is pretty, very pretty, but bad |
| 21:45.53 | GeneralAntilles | Has anybody considered that the "MeeGo device" might be a Booklet 3G Mk II? |
| 21:46.02 | Sc0rpius | I have some friends with Motorola Droids, their battery roughly last for 10 horus |
| 21:46.04 | Sc0rpius | hours |
| 21:46.08 | BCMM | featurephone somewhere in between |
| 21:46.08 | RST38h | General:Yes |
| 21:46.09 | jacekowski | vi_: i'm full time employed and i don't insult people as a revenge |
| 21:46.09 | MohammadAG | damn lag |
| 21:46.17 | jacekowski | vi_: i just insult them because i like to |
| 21:46.17 | jatt | I thought it will be an olpc |
| 21:46.18 | javispedro | 's brain dies after reading GeneralAntilles thought |
| 21:46.18 | RST38h | General: But it will be a Harmattan device. |
| 21:46.31 | Sc0rpius | Mk II isn't that a Metal Gear unit? |
| 21:46.35 | javispedro | RST38h: Harmattan Moblin? =) |
| 21:46.41 | BCMM | sorta a phone that does email and probably lets you install Java games or something |
| 21:46.54 | vi_ | yeah, your also a dumbass who doesnt believe in batterys |
| 21:46.55 | RST38h | javispedro: harmattan-freakin-maemo, labelled Meego. |
| 21:47.09 | vi_ | ignored |
| 21:47.09 | jacekowski | vi_: woot? |
| 21:47.18 | javispedro | on a Booklet though, I'd expect they'd ship NetbookUX aka Mobling and call it a day. |
| 21:47.25 | javispedro | *Moblin, dammit. |
| 21:47.50 | RST38h | Maeblin |
| 21:48.19 | RST38h | (reads as Ma-yo-bleen) |
| 21:48.27 | ieatlint | moblin, meego... someone tell intel to stop naming things |
| 21:48.38 | jatt | hehe |
| 21:48.41 | jacekowski | ieatlint: core |
| 21:48.46 | jacekowski | ieatlint: that name was nasty |
| 21:48.53 | jacekowski | i have 2 core core 2 |
| 21:48.58 | ieatlint | worse than wp7? |
| 21:49.09 | jacekowski | or i have core 2 |
| 21:49.11 | ieatlint | every time i say "a windows phone 7 phone" i shudder |
| 21:49.11 | jacekowski | or i have 2 cores |
| 21:49.30 | jacekowski | or i have 2 core core 1 |
| 21:49.48 | jacekowski | with HT |
| 21:50.07 | BCMM_ | ieatlint: microsoft names stuff purely to make you feel like that |
| 21:50.15 | BCMM_ | ieatlint: "So click on My Computer" |
| 21:50.33 | ieatlint | heh, yeah |
| 21:50.41 | MohammadAG | RST38h, maybe it's maybelene (or however that crap's spelled) |
| 21:50.51 | BCMM_ | and "windows" itself is pretty confusing, imho |
| 21:51.01 | ieatlint | and i've referred to symbian 3 as the windows me of mobiles |
| 21:51.18 | ieatlint | "just take a platform that's 10 years old and keep hacking on features" |
| 21:51.29 | BCMM_ | i mean, "close all open windows" |
| 21:51.53 | BCMM_ | 9x was younger than that |
| 21:52.01 | RST38h | Mohammmad: No,no,I absolutely insist on Maeblin. |
| 21:52.08 | BCMM_ | i mean, when the abandoned it |
| 21:52.10 | BCMM_ | it was a mess from the start |
| 21:52.18 | RST38h | Mohammad: Ask ZogG why, when you have a chnce :) |
| 21:54.30 | *** join/#maemo rola25 (~rola25@91-113-19-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 21:57.00 | *** join/#maemo nox- (noident@p4FCBE072.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:58.35 | *** join/#maemo ShadSEC (~ShadSEC@116.220.22.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 21:59.19 | *** part/#maemo rola25 (~rola25@91-113-19-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 22:02.28 | DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: nope, not according to what I was able to pull outa timeless' nose |
| 22:03.17 | *** join/#maemo Arkenoi (~ark@81.200.10.88) |
| 22:05.14 | DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: he clearly said that it's meego subdivision that is building this meego device, and their focus (read product specs) haven't changed recently for that device. So if it's not been Nokia's plan since long ago to ship something completely different than a phone for first meego device, I'd guess chances it is now are marginal |
| 22:05.43 | *** join/#maemo ^24seven (~24seven@decoy.de56.net) |
| 22:06.24 | javispedro | Nokia and plan on the same sentence should trigger a SIGALRM |
| 22:06.43 | *** join/#maemo me|kor (~melkor@88-134-30-112-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 22:06.46 | DocScrutinizer | actually it triggered a SIGSEGV |
| 22:07.18 | *** join/#maemo thauta (~thautako@tuomi.oulu.fi) |
| 22:07.26 | *** join/#maemo pexi (~pexi@tuomi.oulu.fi) |
| 22:08.13 | *** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@89.241.2.204) |
| 22:09.11 | DocScrutinizer | and yes, I know this from my own time at some other hw manufacturer, there's no use in putting any statements, as you never know what ideas mgmt got tomorrow |
| 22:09.12 | *** join/#maemo joga (~joga@rikki.fi) |
| 22:10.06 | DocScrutinizer | nevertheless all this doesn't invalidate my rationale above, I think |
| 22:10.15 | *** join/#maemo lofty306 (~OnTheRoad@tuxhacker/loft306) |
| 22:10.54 | SpeedEvil | Also - there was the above-mentioned quote in the statement saying that it was a phone, in passing. |
| 22:11.51 | *** join/#maemo edisson (~edisson@189.2.128.130) |
| 22:13.09 | javispedro | 's Phone 7 SDK download is at 95%... it's about that time everything dies abruptly so that I have to redownload |
| 22:13.38 | *** join/#maemo jhb (~joerg@e176085233.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 22:13.38 | *** join/#maemo lolloo (~lolloo@2.91.7.183) |
| 22:13.42 | DocScrutinizer | LOL |
| 22:13.56 | thomasjfox | javispedro: It doesn't want you to download it! Try the meego SDK, that one will finish 100% |
| 22:14.58 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: don't you think that's all part of the masterplan? Tomorrow M$ comes up with "3 mio downloads of WP7 SDK in only 4 days. Microkia great success at developers'" |
| 22:15.32 | javispedro | 3 million downloads from 2 different IPs only! |
| 22:15.37 | javispedro | 127.0.0.1 and mine! |
| 22:15.45 | DocScrutinizer | hahahahahaha |
| 22:15.55 | lardman | lol |
| 22:16.53 | DocScrutinizer | it's YOU who builds their success :-P |
| 22:17.09 | trumee | likes the Tesco app in android market. Much easier to use then let javascript kill MicroB |
| 22:17.21 | javispedro | No, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 22:17.43 | *** join/#maemo trem_ (~trem@mol92-1-81-57-136-23.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 22:17.44 | nox- | http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/02/15/lg.optimus.3d/ |
| 22:17.52 | javispedro | "Error code 00500. A unknown error happened with" (yes, dialog box ends there) |
| 22:18.09 | MohammadAG | A unknown? |
| 22:18.11 | MohammadAG | epic spelling |
| 22:18.12 | DocScrutinizer | ROTFL, M$ at its finest |
| 22:18.35 | MohammadAG | javispedro, wget -c? |
| 22:18.47 | DocScrutinizer | actually it feels like it's ever been like this |
| 22:18.47 | javispedro | I am using their crappy downloader |
| 22:18.59 | nox- | what DocScrutinizer said |
| 22:19.03 | *** join/#maemo trbs2 (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623) |
| 22:19.12 | javispedro | and the file is gone |
| 22:19.15 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 22:19.15 | javispedro | ok, fsck this. |
| 22:19.16 | lardman | anyone know if the N900 has a wpa_supplicant.conf file anywhere? |
| 22:19.22 | MohammadAG | why not sniff it |
| 22:19.24 | MohammadAG | and use wget |
| 22:19.32 | MohammadAG | it doesn't use WS lardman |
| 22:19.43 | lardman | drat |
| 22:19.49 | lardman | thanks MohammadAG |
| 22:20.45 | DocScrutinizer | iirc javispedro is using wpa_supp |
| 22:20.51 | DocScrutinizer | ;-) |
| 22:21.12 | MohammadAG | rms javispedro's wpa_supplicant |
| 22:21.14 | MohammadAG | not anymore |
| 22:21.15 | javispedro | I'm no longer using it since I don't have the need any more, but it's still around |
| 22:21.24 | lardman | yeah, but he's not using my AP afaik! ;) |
| 22:21.49 | DocScrutinizer | lardman: you might be wrong though :-P |
| 22:22.24 | DocScrutinizer | lardman: have you checked recently? |
| 22:23.47 | lardman | true :D |
| 22:24.59 | lardman | ok, I've another good question for you knowledgeable chaps |
| 22:25.04 | lardman | ;) |
| 22:25.10 | DocScrutinizer | shoot |
| 22:25.20 | DocScrutinizer | is bored |
| 22:25.22 | lardman | how do I get a cursor to appear in vi? Or indeed on my terminal at all |
| 22:26.06 | DocScrutinizer | umm, cursor like in xterm? |
| 22:26.14 | lardman | yep |
| 22:27.17 | DocScrutinizer | http://inz.fi/blog/category/geeky/maemo/maemo-hackers/osso-xterm/ is all I can share |
| 22:28.19 | *** join/#maemo merlin_1991 (~x@chello080109073084.5.15.vie.surfer.at) |
| 22:28.30 | lardman | ah, I don't want a binary, I just would like to see the cursor in vi when I log into my Tab running Meego |
| 22:28.32 | nox- | lardman, maybe the xterm needs a `reset' |
| 22:28.35 | lardman | would make it easier to edit files |
| 22:28.38 | alterego | What ever happened to inz |
| 22:28.40 | lardman | nox-: nah done that |
| 22:28.51 | nox- | oh |
| 22:28.59 | nox- | ok i know nothing about meego's xterm... |
| 22:29.14 | lardman | not xterm |
| 22:29.15 | nox- | maybe its b0rked somehow? |
| 22:29.19 | lardman | command line login |
| 22:29.29 | nox- | well, terminal emulator |
| 22:29.57 | lardman | np |
| 22:30.08 | MohammadAG | umm |
| 22:30.22 | MohammadAG | what awk/sed magic do i do on ii mp-fremantle-community-pr 20.2010.36-2maemo11 Community SSU package, includes latest fixes from Gitorious and the community to get the version? |
| 22:31.14 | *** join/#maemo C-S-B (~csb@ipv4-95-152-205-90.static.as8844.net) |
| 22:31.18 | alterego | awk '{print $3}' |
| 22:31.21 | DocScrutinizer | cut |
| 22:31.25 | MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/usr/lib/hildon-control-panel# dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr | tail -1 | sed 's/ /\n/g' | grep maemo |
| 22:31.26 | MohammadAG | 20.2010.36-2maemo11 |
| 22:31.30 | MohammadAG | looks nasty :p |
| 22:31.34 | DocScrutinizer | or what alterego said |
| 22:32.06 | MohammadAG | actually Nokia-N900:/usr/lib/hildon-control-panel# dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr | sed 's/ /\n/g' | grep maemo |
| 22:32.07 | MohammadAG | 20.2010.36-2maemo11 |
| 22:32.10 | LjL | any hint how i might feed information into the gpsd? i basically want to make the system believe i'm in a certain location, even if there's no actual GPS fix (on the N810) |
| 22:33.44 | javispedro | tries to as MohammadAG to find what the download server is, points wget to it and finds 3KiB/sec speeds |
| 22:34.04 | MohammadAG | javispedro, should be done by next MWC! |
| 22:34.21 | MohammadAG | alterego, ty |
| 22:34.35 | DocScrutinizer | LjL: there's no gpsd |
| 22:34.54 | LjL | no gpsd? wow, i must have gotten it all real wrong :D |
| 22:35.00 | DocScrutinizer | you could write a liblocation substitute and LDPRELOAD it |
| 22:35.05 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: N810 |
| 22:35.10 | DocScrutinizer | ooh |
| 22:35.13 | DocScrutinizer | MEH |
| 22:35.15 | alterego | MohammadAG: dpkg -l $target | grep '^ii' | awk '{print $3}' |
| 22:35.17 | *** join/#maemo aveny (~menos@client-82-0-88-240.sdn-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) |
| 22:35.18 | aveny | hi there |
| 22:35.27 | LjL | ah, i really did believe there was a gpsd :P |
| 22:35.33 | LjL | why's it been removed in N900? that seems silly to me |
| 22:35.43 | alterego | MohammadAG: will return 0 string if the package is not installed. |
| 22:35.48 | LjL | although N900 does have GeoClue, doesn't it? |
| 22:35.52 | alterego | 0 length sng that is |
| 22:36.08 | javispedro | LjL: http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/why-not-gpsd.html |
| 22:36.10 | alterego | LjL: does on MeeGo |
| 22:36.26 | *** join/#maemo millenomi (~millenomi@93.48.147.125) |
| 22:36.55 | MohammadAG | alterego, I already check if it's installed :) |
| 22:38.41 | LjL | javispedro: hmm i see. i don't entirely buy it, in the sense that ditching gpsd is bound to cause fragmentation and go back to a state where you can't access your device using multiple programs, but i guess there is a point. |
| 22:39.13 | LjL | i wish there was at least geoclue for OS2008 anyway. it seems to be there for OS2007... and i'd really like to have wifi-based location |
| 22:39.28 | LjL | alterego: ah i had gotten the impression it did on Maemo too |
| 22:41.01 | javispedro | seriously, seriously, does Nokia expect people to download the wp7 tools? |
| 22:41.52 | Sc0rpius | seriously, seriously, does Nokia expect people to buy wp7 phones? |
| 22:42.26 | MohammadAG | how do I add text to chars? |
| 22:42.30 | MohammadAG | usually in Qt, I use + |
| 22:42.33 | javispedro | this completely and utterly sucks. I hope they have pendrives or something. |
| 22:42.58 | aveny | hi guys |
| 22:43.07 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: depends |
| 22:43.09 | aveny | can you tell me what do you use to create patches for the kernel? |
| 22:43.15 | jacekowski | aveny: diff |
| 22:43.39 | *** join/#maemo C-S-B (~csb@ipv4-95-152-205-90.static.as8844.net) |
| 22:43.55 | javispedro | MohammadAG: g_strconcat? |
| 22:44.04 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: sprintf() |
| 22:44.05 | MohammadAG | javispedro, english? :P |
| 22:44.15 | Sc0rpius | g_strconcat is a good solution I use that sometimes |
| 22:44.21 | Sc0rpius | or g_strdup_printf |
| 22:44.27 | MohammadAG | version = "Version: 20.2010.36-2" + output + "\n"; |
| 22:44.27 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: strncat, asprintf |
| 22:44.37 | MohammadAG | I was thinking that'd work, as with QString |
| 22:44.40 | aveny | jacekowski, just diff?? |
| 22:44.41 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: asprintf |
| 22:44.44 | jacekowski | aveny: yes |
| 22:44.55 | javispedro | glib prefers g_strdup_printf over asprintf |
| 22:45.04 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: asprintf will be easiest for you because it will handle allocation of memory for you |
| 22:45.14 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: you just have to remember to free everything |
| 22:45.20 | aveny | jacekowski, what if you want to see the final patched code? always diff? |
| 22:45.31 | MohammadAG | remind me to never touch gtk |
| 22:45.35 | javispedro | (for the single reason g_strdup_printf comes with glib, which comes with gtk+, while asprintf is nonstandard addition to libc) |
| 22:45.41 | jacekowski | aveny: i'm not sure what are you talking about |
| 22:45.57 | jacekowski | aveny: there is a lot ways of doing it |
| 22:46.05 | javispedro | MohammadAG: http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/unstable/glib-String-Utility-Functions.html |
| 22:46.10 | jacekowski | aveny: i think what you will have to do is checkout it from git and then work on it |
| 22:46.18 | jacekowski | aveny: and then do for example git diff |
| 22:46.43 | jacekowski | aveny: and that will give you difference between your working copy and specific revision |
| 22:46.58 | jacekowski | aveny: but it's quite wide topic |
| 22:46.58 | aveny | jacekowski, uhm ok |
| 22:47.14 | aveny | jacekowski, is there any useful guide? it's not so clear :) |
| 22:47.16 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: nah, it's overloading that made everything easy for you |
| 22:47.22 | jacekowski | aveny: not really |
| 22:47.26 | jacekowski | aveny: there is git guide |
| 22:47.35 | jacekowski | aveny: but you first have to know what you want |
| 22:47.44 | jacekowski | aveny: do you want to write code yourself |
| 22:47.47 | jacekowski | aveny: or what |
| 22:47.55 | *** join/#maemo pexi (~pexi@tuomi.oulu.fi) |
| 22:48.04 | aveny | jacekowski, ok.. and.. if I want to modify one nokia patch, should I write another patch or can I just modify that patch? |
| 22:48.18 | jacekowski | that sort of thing |
| 22:48.19 | *** join/#maemo thauta (~thautako@tuomi.oulu.fi) |
| 22:48.26 | jacekowski | you ussualy apply all patches |
| 22:48.28 | aveny | jacekowski, I want modify one file of the kernel |
| 22:48.43 | jacekowski | modify that file you want |
| 22:48.52 | MohammadAG | jacekowski, heh |
| 22:49.08 | *** join/#maemo lardman (~simon@Maemo/community/contributor/lardman) |
| 22:49.16 | jacekowski | and diff it with file before your modification and after |
| 22:49.21 | aveny | uhm and in order to apply all the patches should I checkout that? |
| 22:49.31 | jacekowski | complicated |
| 22:49.52 | jacekowski | and i'm not sure where is that patch |
| 22:49.56 | jacekowski | you may have to branch it |
| 22:50.11 | aveny | the patch is this: nokia-20094803.3+0m5.diff |
| 22:50.21 | aveny | I just want to modify some lines |
| 22:50.33 | jacekowski | what for? |
| 22:50.37 | aveny | so I was thinking to modify just that patch instead of modify all |
| 22:50.38 | jacekowski | just for yourself? |
| 22:50.41 | aveny | yes |
| 22:50.43 | aveny | just for me |
| 22:50.46 | jacekowski | then don't bother |
| 22:50.50 | jacekowski | just apply all patches |
| 22:50.53 | jacekowski | modify source |
| 22:50.55 | jacekowski | and compile it |
| 22:51.01 | aveny | uhm |
| 22:51.10 | aveny | the fact is that I can compile only |
| 22:51.27 | *** join/#maemo Openfre^ (~Openfreer@61.170.196.37) |
| 22:51.38 | aveny | using dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa |
| 22:51.50 | jacekowski | same shit |
| 22:51.56 | jacekowski | just make it whatever way it will work |
| 22:52.00 | aveny | if I try to do it with make I get errors |
| 22:52.02 | jacekowski | as long as nobody else sees it it's ok |
| 22:52.06 | aveny | uhm |
| 22:52.08 | jacekowski | then you're doing it wrong |
| 22:52.14 | jacekowski | read rules file |
| 22:52.20 | jacekowski | there are some special options for make |
| 22:52.39 | aveny | I get strange compilation errors |
| 22:52.56 | aveny | instead using that command I don't so |
| 22:53.01 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: why are you trying to join that string before |
| 22:53.23 | aveny | it's a mess :/ |
| 22:53.47 | aveny | wait wait wait |
| 22:53.57 | *** join/#maemo SpeedEvil (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 22:54.04 | jacekowski | aveny: there is wiki entry about compiling your own kernel |
| 22:54.06 | aveny | if I want to compile with make, should I apply all the patches before typing make? |
| 22:54.10 | jacekowski | aveny: no |
| 22:54.15 | alterego | aveny: that command doesn't build |
| 22:54.15 | aveny | jacekowski, I read it |
| 22:54.17 | jacekowski | you don't compile with make |
| 22:54.32 | aveny | make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 bzImage |
| 22:54.35 | alterego | make bzImage |
| 22:54.36 | aveny | this should compile |
| 22:54.53 | aveny | yes that |
| 22:54.54 | *** join/#maemo sid_ (~sid@g225218202.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 22:54.59 | alterego | Have you configured it? |
| 22:55.03 | jacekowski | nope |
| 22:55.03 | aveny | yes |
| 22:55.10 | jacekowski | make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 rx51_defconfig |
| 22:55.12 | aveny | make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 rx51_defconfig |
| 22:55.13 | jacekowski | that's first |
| 22:55.21 | jacekowski | make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 bzImage |
| 22:55.21 | aveny | I get errors |
| 22:55.23 | alterego | Ah yes. |
| 22:55.23 | jacekowski | that's second |
| 22:55.23 | *** join/#maemo Openfre^ (~Openfreer@61.170.196.37) |
| 22:55.26 | jacekowski | what sort of errors |
| 22:55.39 | aveny | arch/arm/plat-omap/include/mach/pm.h:111:2: error: #error "Power management for this processor not implemented yet" |
| 22:55.55 | *** join/#maemo blackthorne (~blackthor@a79-169-32-205.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 22:56.08 | jacekowski | hmm |
| 22:56.08 | aveny | I modified the pm.h in order to avoid that error but after there was another linking error |
| 22:56.19 | aveny | at the end |
| 22:56.28 | jacekowski | and how you unpacked sources |
| 22:56.32 | jacekowski | and where you've got them from |
| 22:56.53 | aveny | apt-get source kernel-power |
| 22:57.00 | aveny | cd kernel-power-2.6.28/ |
| 22:57.07 | jacekowski | that should work |
| 22:57.07 | aveny | fakeroot apt-get build-dep kernel-power |
| 22:57.12 | *** join/#maemo pyther (~pyther@adsl-99-155-90-130.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:57.12 | *** join/#maemo pyther (~pyther@unaffiliated/pyther) |
| 22:57.15 | aveny | dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa |
| 22:57.18 | aveny | yep I know.. |
| 22:57.49 | jacekowski | let me just check |
| 22:57.55 | aveny | k thanks :) |
| 22:58.28 | *** join/#maemo SpeedEvil (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) |
| 22:58.44 | *** join/#maemo flux (flux@coffee.modeemi.fi) |
| 22:59.05 | aveny | jacekowski, sorry |
| 22:59.08 | *** join/#maemo Kaadlajk (kylanpaj@mustatilhi.cs.tut.fi) |
| 22:59.12 | aveny | that command worked sorry |
| 22:59.13 | jacekowski | yeah |
| 22:59.25 | aveny | the command that gave me the errors was: |
| 22:59.29 | jacekowski | what? |
| 22:59.41 | aveny | cp debian/rx51power_defconfig arch/arm/configs/ |
| 22:59.47 | aveny | make EXTRAVERSION=power46 rx51power_defconfig |
| 22:59.53 | aveny | make EXTRAVERSION=power46 bzImage |
| 23:00.07 | aveny | the arch/arm/plat-omap/include/mach/pm.h:111:2: error: #error "Power management for this processor not implemented yet" |
| 23:00.40 | aveny | the "normal" kernel is ok but compiling the power kernel gives me that error |
| 23:02.19 | *** join/#maemo RangerBob (~Brian@pool-71-171-98-198.clppva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 23:02.42 | jacekowski | ahm |
| 23:02.43 | alterego | Tomorrow I get back into Columbus :) |
| 23:02.49 | jacekowski | yeah i see the problem |
| 23:03.00 | aveny | k |
| 23:03.06 | jacekowski | complicated to fix |
| 23:03.09 | aveny | damn it |
| 23:03.15 | aveny | so is not just me ok |
| 23:03.16 | jacekowski | just edit that patch |
| 23:03.20 | aveny | ok |
| 23:03.32 | lardman | hmm, does wpa_supplicant log to somewhere? |
| 23:03.35 | jacekowski | and don't tell anyone |
| 23:03.39 | aveny | :D |
| 23:03.56 | aveny | is it really so complicated to fix the error? |
| 23:04.04 | jacekowski | no |
| 23:04.09 | jacekowski | you would have to edit package |
| 23:04.09 | aveny | k |
| 23:04.12 | jacekowski | quite simple |
| 23:04.34 | jacekowski | but i's too complicated for me to explain it at 23:00 |
| 23:04.38 | aveny | ah ok |
| 23:04.40 | jacekowski | 23:04 |
| 23:04.59 | jacekowski | because i'm looking at screen with one eye |
| 23:05.03 | aveny | but why has been updated a kernel that has compiling problems? |
| 23:05.06 | jacekowski | because other one is sleeping already |
| 23:05.07 | aveny | lol why? |
| 23:05.10 | aveny | ah k |
| 23:05.11 | aveny | :D |
| 23:05.15 | aveny | is not so late :P |
| 23:05.30 | jacekowski | it is if you consider that i woke up at 04:00 today |
| 23:05.43 | aveny | jacekowski, ok this makes sense.. |
| 23:06.00 | aveny | thanks for the explanations |
| 23:06.23 | MohammadAG | i should be asleep too |
| 23:06.35 | aveny | another :D |
| 23:06.36 | javispedro | would be.. |
| 23:06.37 | jacekowski | aveny: but you can read debian/rules |
| 23:06.38 | MohammadAG | school, need to wake up at 6 and it's 1 |
| 23:06.47 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: 6? |
| 23:06.48 | javispedro | if it not WERE BECAUSE OF FSCKING MS DOWNLOAD SERVER |
| 23:06.49 | aveny | jacekowski, to do what? |
| 23:06.51 | MohammadAG | cba to sleep though |
| 23:07.07 | jacekowski | aveny: to understand how that package is built |
| 23:07.08 | MohammadAG | jacekowski, yeah |
| 23:07.24 | jacekowski | that's bit early to go to school |
| 23:07.37 | jacekowski | in my school days i never woke up before 9:00 |
| 23:07.39 | aveny | jacekowski, what package? stupid question I know |
| 23:07.45 | aveny | yep it's very early 6.00 |
| 23:07.48 | jacekowski | but that may be a reason why i barely passed |
| 23:07.52 | *** join/#maemo eijk__ (~eijk@e178209216.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:07.53 | aveny | :D |
| 23:07.55 | merlin1991 | jacekowski, :D |
| 23:08.32 | MohammadAG | lol jacekowski |
| 23:08.45 | MohammadAG | well, morning routine |
| 23:08.57 | MohammadAG | syncing with gitorious /me stares at merlin1991 |
| 23:09.08 | *** join/#maemo kwtm (~kwtm1@adsl-75-61-98-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:09.19 | jacekowski | and it wasn't the thing that i didn't like to go to school |
| 23:09.24 | merlin1991 | *thumbs up* MohammadAG |
| 23:09.25 | jacekowski | i hated doing homework |
| 23:09.41 | jacekowski | and going to school without homework always meant bad things |
| 23:09.53 | jacekowski | so i just decided to not go |
| 23:09.54 | MohammadAG | i have two tests tomorrow |
| 23:09.58 | MohammadAG | didn't study neither |
| 23:10.12 | jacekowski | i don't have problems with tests |
| 23:10.19 | MohammadAG | why? cause they're religion and arabic, two subjects I don't give a crap about |
| 23:10.25 | jacekowski | it's just spending time at home doing school stuff |
| 23:10.37 | jacekowski | when i could be doing fuck all |
| 23:10.46 | jacekowski | esspecialy that i knew this stuff already |
| 23:11.10 | MohammadAG | I just find Qt a bit more interesting |
| 23:11.23 | jacekowski | and writing down 20th page of integrals was boring |
| 23:12.10 | jacekowski | but at the point where i can tell result of an integral by just looking at it it's pointless for me to do any more of them |
| 23:12.26 | jacekowski | if you have to write it all down propely how you got to the result |
| 23:13.27 | jacekowski | and highest grades on test wouldn't compensate for lowest grades on anything else |
| 23:13.32 | jacekowski | everything else* |
| 23:13.40 | jacekowski | so i was just barely passing |
| 23:13.50 | jacekowski | my low attendance wasn't helping a lot as well |
| 23:13.55 | MohammadAG | sometimes when I'm bored with integrals I wrote the answer and worked from bottom to top |
| 23:14.12 | MohammadAG | s/'m/was |
| 23:15.44 | BCMM_ | MohammadAG: i thought you did teh Noor package? |
| 23:15.57 | BCMM_ | (that's arabic, religion, and not Qt) |
| 23:15.59 | MohammadAG | I did |
| 23:16.26 | jacekowski | noor? |
| 23:17.06 | MohammadAG | Quran app, needed it for a religion test :P |
| 23:17.09 | jacekowski | hmmm |
| 23:17.10 | jacekowski | Noor (play), the play by Akbar Ahmed |
| 23:17.30 | jacekowski | Queen Noor of Jordan |
| 23:17.32 | *** join/#maemo lofty306 (~OnTheRoad@tuxhacker/loft306) |
| 23:17.35 | jacekowski | or city in iran |
| 23:17.43 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 23:18.29 | lofty306 | if he was in iran he prob wouldnt be here |
| 23:19.28 | Per_n900 | Where is MohammadAG from? Israel? |
| 23:19.47 | javispedro | "Weâve also long been impressed with the creativity, passion and size of the Nokia developer community, and we will do all we can to bring that energy to Windows Phone" |
| 23:20.00 | MohammadAG | yea |
| 23:20.15 | BCMM_ | javispedro: insult to injury and all that... |
| 23:20.15 | MohammadAG | javispedro, $100kk won't get me on WP7 |
| 23:20.23 | MohammadAG | double ks was not a mistake |
| 23:20.39 | javispedro | that was basically the welcome message =) |
| 23:20.40 | BCMM_ | that's an amazingly stupid thing to say... |
| 23:20.46 | lardman | MohammadAG: well for $101kk I'd probably consider it |
| 23:20.56 | _trine | MohammadAG, are you retiring at an early age then |
| 23:20.57 | *** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 23:21.10 | *** mode/#maemo [-o GAN900] by ChanServ |
| 23:21.12 | MohammadAG | lardman, nah |
| 23:21.17 | *** mode/#maemo [-o Jaffa] by ChanServ |
| 23:21.22 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: correct would be to use M |
| 23:21.22 | lardman | won't get out of bed for.... |
| 23:21.31 | lardman | les than $102kk |
| 23:21.38 | lardman | +s |
| 23:21.40 | jacekowski | use correct suffixes |
| 23:21.44 | jacekowski | M |
| 23:21.45 | MohammadAG | 100kkk, maybe |
| 23:21.46 | jacekowski | not double k |
| 23:21.52 | jacekowski | G not tripple k |
| 23:22.04 | javispedro | ooh, windows phone emlator, let's try this thing |
| 23:22.05 | lardman | k^2 ? |
| 23:22.07 | MohammadAG | kkk sounds cooler |
| 23:22.23 | jacekowski | have you heard about klu klux klan |
| 23:22.28 | lofty306 | *Crash* |
| 23:22.34 | jacekowski | ku kux klan* |
| 23:22.40 | jacekowski | klux* |
| 23:22.41 | _trine | obviously not :) |
| 23:23.00 | _trine | MohammadAG, they would burn you on the cross |
| 23:23.02 | lardman | I thought it was Klu? |
| 23:23.03 | javispedro | well wp7 looks like a black and white iphone. |
| 23:23.21 | MohammadAG | javispedro, it even emulates BSODs! |
| 23:23.42 | kerio | MohammadAG: hold on, why do you study religion? |
| 23:23.52 | MohammadAG | kerio, ask my school |
| 23:23.59 | *** join/#maemo C-S-B (~csb@ipv4-95-152-205-90.static.as8844.net) |
| 23:24.08 | kerio | why do you go to a school where you study religion? |
| 23:24.31 | _trine | indoctrination |
| 23:24.43 | MohammadAG | kerio, ask my government |
| 23:24.48 | _trine | is the simple answer |
| 23:24.58 | MohammadAG | nah, all school do it |
| 23:25.07 | MohammadAG | This school is run by christians too |
| 23:25.15 | MohammadAG | and I take islamic religion |
| 23:25.18 | kerio | MohammadAG: aren't you in nyc? |
| 23:25.34 | MohammadAG | LOL |
| 23:25.37 | MohammadAG | I wish |
| 23:25.49 | kerio | then your hostname is lying |
| 23:26.00 | kerio | or you're using a bouncer |
| 23:26.03 | derf | Religion is a significant factor in human relations and has been for centuries. Why _wouldn't_ you study it? |
| 23:26.21 | kerio | a bouncer on verizon fios :Q___ |
| 23:26.26 | Per_n900 | Studying religion is actually pretty good, it enables one to understand where things went horribly wrong in the world. |
| 23:26.32 | _trine | because its become politicised |
| 23:26.33 | *** part/#maemo aveny (~menos@client-82-0-88-240.sdn-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) |
| 23:26.42 | *** join/#maemo MohammadAG (~MohammadA@Maemo/community/contributor/MohammadAG) |
| 23:26.48 | kerio | studying *religions* would be |
| 23:27.08 | jacekowski | single religion by a priest or whatever is pointless |
| 23:27.11 | jacekowski | because it's biased |
| 23:27.13 | MohammadAG | kerio, what hostmask :P |
| 23:27.15 | kerio | studying a single religion is stupid |
| 23:27.24 | jacekowski | that there is only one true god and there is a salvation |
| 23:27.40 | kerio | MohammadAG: oh, it looked like pool-108-14-87-241.nycmny.fios.verizon.net before |
| 23:27.47 | kerio | maybe i'm wrong |
| 23:27.51 | _trine | actually we are all a hologram :) |
| 23:28.01 | MohammadAG | kerio, I wasn't id'd, thanks for pasting the IP lol |
| 23:28.07 | kerio | yw |
| 23:28.10 | jacekowski | 00:26 -!- MohammadAG [~MohammadA@pool-108-14-87-241.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] |
| 23:28.20 | Per_n900 | Religion as a phenomenon is what I meant. |
| 23:28.43 | javispedro | kinda likes the wp7 browser |
| 23:28.45 | kerio | Per_n900: isn't mass hysteria best studied in med school? |
| 23:28.59 | *** join/#maemo Rarok (~Rarok@65.99.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com) |
| 23:28.59 | MohammadAG | performs an exorcism on javispedro |
| 23:29.16 | jacekowski | that's a good question |
| 23:29.21 | MohammadAG | javispedro, what do you like again? |
| 23:29.28 | _trine | maybe we could convert this channel now its obsolete to religious chat #maegod |
| 23:29.28 | jacekowski | MohammadAG: is there a thing like a devil or something in islam? |
| 23:29.41 | javispedro | it seems to be doing some kind of font resizing |
| 23:29.41 | MohammadAG | yeah |
| 23:29.47 | Per_n900 | kerio, maybe. |
| 23:29.49 | SpeedEvil | learned the answer to that on Radio 4. |
| 23:29.57 | MohammadAG | murders javispedro - we lost this one :( |
| 23:30.00 | SpeedEvil | It's George Bush. |
| 23:30.11 | kerio | MohammadAG: hey font resizing is cool |
| 23:30.17 | kerio | it's what my ipod touch does |
| 23:30.28 | kerio | screwing up with the layout of most websites |
| 23:30.33 | jacekowski | anyways |
| 23:30.35 | jacekowski | good night |
| 23:30.39 | SpeedEvil | Night! |
| 23:30.58 | *** join/#maemo jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-137-199.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 23:31.11 | javispedro | unfortunately, you cannot disable this font resizing at all. |
| 23:31.22 | _trine | this channel requires a good strong dose of prozac after the bad news |
| 23:31.24 | javispedro | even though it has a quite large options page including user agent |
| 23:31.29 | kwtm | MohammadAG: On the subject of Nokia's betrayal, we are grateful to people like you for the community updates to Maemo. Thx. |
| 23:31.31 | kerio | i <3 microB ^_^ |
| 23:31.44 | lofty306 | bad news link? |
| 23:31.49 | BCMM_ | what kwtm said! |
| 23:32.05 | rzr | cheap n900 : http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B002ZB8L4O/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d2_i2?pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1BNDQG5TCVRFBSAD6XJ6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463375513&pf_rd_i=405320 |
| 23:32.07 | javispedro | tbh I miss a "distort layout resize fonts" tool on MicroB (and yes I know about Ctrl+Shift+I) |
| 23:32.28 | pupnik_ | isn't maemo just really freakin good already? |
| 23:32.31 | kerio | MohammadAG: so are you an atheist or you just don't care about the one true deity that created this universe just for you? |
| 23:33.08 | javispedro | types slashdot.org and wp7 suggests slashdot.org.org . I wonder if its some kind of inside joke. |
| 23:33.09 | lardman | would that not be agnostic? |
| 23:33.13 | pupnik_ | the interesting question is "why did android become popular and not maemo" |
| 23:33.31 | pupnik_ | i'd like to see someone explain the factors that led to this |
| 23:33.32 | lardman | pupnik: because the email client worked? |
| 23:33.32 | kerio | lardman: gnosticism != theism |
| 23:33.36 | BCMM_ | lardman: an agnostic doesn't know if there is a god or not - thinking there is one but not caring is different |
| 23:33.43 | SpeedEvil | Android had a large number of devices by the time that maemo 5 hit |
| 23:33.44 | _trine | is android more open source |
| 23:33.50 | javispedro | ok, slashdot is completely unreadable on this thing. microb wins. |
| 23:33.51 | kerio | _trine: a lot less |
| 23:33.55 | pupnik_ | SpeedEvil: i think that's a big part of it |
| 23:33.56 | kerio | javispedro: yay |
| 23:34.10 | pupnik_ | but how did android get so much mindshare? |
| 23:34.10 | MohammadAG | kwtm, yw :) |
| 23:34.21 | BCMM_ | pupnik_: Google. |
| 23:34.26 | pupnik_ | analysis of chaotic / feedback cycles isn't easy |
| 23:34.32 | *** part/#maemo pupnik (~pupnik@unaffiliated/pupnik) |
| 23:34.34 | BCMM_ | pupnik_: Google has money, and people like them |
| 23:34.34 | _trine | I bought 2 N900's and now I am really disappointed |
| 23:34.36 | Per_n900 | pupnik_: google pays manufacturers to use it, or so I have heard atleast. That could be one reason. |
| 23:34.39 | MohammadAG | kerio, no, I just got bored of the subject at school |
| 23:34.40 | MohammadAG | kerio, same freaking stuff, for 12 years |
| 23:34.40 | kerio | lardman: gnosticism = knowing about the existance or non-existance of a deity |
| 23:34.43 | lardman | BCMM: but atheism is believing there is no God I thought |
| 23:34.46 | *** join/#maemo mitsutaka (~mitsutaka@rt.miraclelinux.com) |
| 23:34.49 | BCMM_ | lardman: yes. |
| 23:35.05 | kerio | MohammadAG: i gave you a question with two choices and you answered "no" |
| 23:35.08 | lardman | so the question above can't really use or as a conjunction |
| 23:35.09 | kerio | :| |
| 23:35.19 | pupnik_ | BCMM_: nokia has / had a lot of money too |
| 23:35.22 | javispedro | "Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone For Evaluation Purposes Only" -- on the title bar. |
| 23:35.33 | javispedro | "there, free development tools!". |
| 23:35.37 | javispedro | thank you Nokia! |
| 23:35.38 | pupnik_ | BCMM_: part of the problem is the world's focus on the USA.. |
| 23:35.48 | _trine | you dont have to worry about religion theres an APP now to receive forgiveness for your sins |
| 23:35.50 | BCMM_ | lardman: theism: believing in a god. atheism: not believing in a god. agnosticism: undecided between the other two :) |
| 23:35.52 | rzr | javispedro: run it through wine and tell us |
| 23:35.53 | _trine | :))) |
| 23:35.56 | lardman | anyway, brain is frazzled after staring at Tab screen for too long |
| 23:36.05 | kerio | BCMM_: nope |
| 23:36.18 | kerio | gnosticism != theism |
| 23:36.23 | BCMM_ | kerio: the :) was supposed to indicate knowing i'm wrong |
| 23:36.30 | kwtm | pupnik_: Why did android become popular? Marketing machine that is Google! |
| 23:36.32 | kerio | one is about knowledge and the other is about belief |
| 23:36.41 | kerio | BCMM_: you needed more )s |
| 23:36.46 | MohammadAG | kerio, I'm hardcore |
| 23:36.49 | lofty306 | pupnik_, advertising |
| 23:36.51 | rzr | BCMM: what is the term for those who dont give a f about it |
| 23:36.51 | kwtm | pupnik_: Do you see Nokia pimping Maemo anywhere? <sigh> Except maybe two Youtube videos... |
| 23:36.59 | lardman | night all |
| 23:37.17 | pupnik_ | kwtm: i agree there was a colossal marketing failure and lack of belief in linux |
| 23:37.23 | BCMM_ | yeah, maemo made very little noise, even without open-source focused media |
| 23:37.23 | kerio | lardman: i meant "are you disinterested in the study of religion because you don't believe in it or just out of boredom for the subject?" |
| 23:37.28 | _trine | I am changing what I am interested in,, now I am looking into number crunching with a video card and pyrit |
| 23:37.30 | BCMM_ | ^within, rather |
| 23:37.31 | kwtm | _trine: the N900's are still valuable, partly because they can withstand obsolescence ... It will still be running Linux, python/bash scripts, etc. |
| 23:37.50 | kerio | kwtm: if you install bash :| |
| 23:38.08 | kwtm | kerio: well, now's the time to install everything before those Maemo repositories disappear! |
| 23:38.14 | _trine | kwtm, yeah it might make a good central heating controller |
| 23:38.22 | kerio | kwtm: nah, MohammadAG's got our back apparently |
| 23:38.33 | rzr | kwtm: as long as u have spare batteries too |
| 23:38.43 | kerio | _trine: nah, that'll be a sheevaplug |
| 23:38.49 | MohammadAG | kerio, technically, my repo lives on maemo.org |
| 23:39.02 | kwtm | kerio: You never know. No disrespect for MohammedAG, of course, but sometimes higher-ups make decisions suddenly and unexpectedly. |
| 23:39.04 | MohammadAG | jacekowski has a mirror though |
| 23:39.10 | lofty306 | they killing it? |
| 23:39.14 | kerio | MohammadAG: YOU GOT OUR BACK LALALALALA |
| 23:39.19 | MohammadAG | they won't kill it |
| 23:39.28 | kwtm | rzr: True; now might be the time to eBay a spare or two. I did get a Universal Battery Charger just because I'm so paranoid. |
| 23:39.40 | lofty306 | just wont dev it anymoore? |
| 23:39.42 | MohammadAG | if they kill it, they'll lose Elop |
| 23:39.45 | merlin1991 | if they kill the repo, I'll finally have a use for my debian server :D |
| 23:39.50 | MohammadAG | laughs diabolically |
| 23:39.53 | rzr | kwtm: do u still think that n900 will remain the only device for uning gnu tools , ssh etc for upcoming years ? |
| 23:40.09 | kerio | i never uned ssh |
| 23:40.19 | kwtm | pupnik_: Not sure if world focus on USA is the problem. I take it you're referring to how, in the USA, Android and iPhones are big and Nokia is tiny. THere was an article on that ... mentioned on slashdot. Searching now. |
| 23:41.05 | MohammadAG | anwyay, think I have to sleep now |
| 23:41.07 | MohammadAG | night |
| 23:41.13 | _trine | gnight |
| 23:41.16 | MohammadAG | will be back in 4 hours :/ |
| 23:41.24 | kwtm | rzr: I fear that there will be that strong possibility. Samsung is rumoured to bring out a Linux phone, but then Nokia was also rumoured to bring out this powerful N9 successor to the N900, and look what happened. |
| 23:41.27 | rzr | kwtm: i am wondering how much does n900 should worth now and if it a good invesment for GNU/linux geeks |
| 23:41.29 | derf | I une ssh all the time. You're missing out. |
| 23:41.38 | BCMM_ | ssh is like magic |
| 23:41.56 | rzr | kwtm: yes SLP i know ,but it lacks an open community |
| 23:41.59 | kwtm | derf: Don't we all use ssh? Who doesn't here? Who are you talking to |
| 23:42.12 | derf | kerio. |
| 23:42.16 | rzr | kwtm: so i fear limo is not hackers users |
| 23:42.27 | kwtm | rzr: Yeah, but then Meego-on-N900 also lacks a big community, which is why I'm glad Maemo's around (and has the N770/N800 community to draw on) |
| 23:42.47 | *** join/#maemo crs (~crs@gentoo/user/crs) |
| 23:42.50 | MohammadAG | i'm not leaving for some time |
| 23:42.51 | _trine | anyway I've gone back to my trustly 6310i |
| 23:42.55 | BCMM_ | i can't remember the last time i used mass-storage mode, because sftp://user@n900/ is just so easy |
| 23:43.06 | rzr | i am happy that maemo wasnt closed when meego was announced |
| 23:43.20 | BCMM_ | (the n900 has a static wlan IP and an entry in /etc/hosts) |
| 23:43.22 | kwtm | kerio: Seriously? No ssh? You gotta try it sometime! Tunnel X over ssh ... |
| 23:43.29 | rzr | kwtm: about about getting n900 today is it a mistake ? |
| 23:43.40 | pupnik_ | kwtm: they're buying ipads with chinese money |
| 23:43.47 | kwtm | rzr: I would get it at a discount. I myself find it useful for this purpose: |
| 23:43.53 | _trine | it certainly would be a big mistake |
| 23:44.08 | rzr | _trine: point out the alternatives ? |
| 23:44.14 | DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: jebba had a mirror :-P |
| 23:44.20 | rzr | _trine: i have a freerunner already |
| 23:44.21 | kerio | kwtm: 'twas a joke based on your misspelling |
| 23:44.31 | MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, freeee.org, but it's dead :( |
| 23:44.35 | pupnik_ | americants are buying nokia stock with fake money |
| 23:44.37 | kwtm | rzr: Mainly for editing files: vim; also viewing PDF's. I guess most people use the web, too, although I don't that much. So these are the main reason, "raisons d'etre". And then there |
| 23:44.37 | MohammadAG | or was it freeeee? |
| 23:44.39 | pupnik_ | and destroying the company |
| 23:44.48 | derf | Technically rzr's misspelling. |
| 23:44.57 | _trine | rzr, its not a question of is there an alternative because the answer sometimes is there is none |
| 23:44.57 | DocScrutinizer | nah it's moego.org |
| 23:45.18 | MohammadAG | my nickname's moe :p |
| 23:45.19 | kwtm | kerio: Oh, you mean "uned" instead of "used". That was rzr's misspelling, not mine. |
| 23:45.36 | kerio | er, yeah |
| 23:45.41 | *** join/#maemo joc (~joc@unaffiliated/joc) |
| 23:46.00 | DocScrutinizer | well and his full name was Jeff Moe afaik |
| 23:46.02 | kwtm | rzr: And then there's the phone and internet capability, which are mainly to support the main activities (e.g now you can transfer files to your home server) etc. |
| 23:46.02 | rzr | did i ? |
| 23:46.26 | rzr | actually i have a n810 and a freerunner i never use |
| 23:46.26 | kwtm | rzr: You said something about "uning" ssh, so kerio said he's never "uned" ssh before. |
| 23:46.36 | _trine | my 6310i is a great phone 2 weeks between each battery charge |
| 23:46.39 | kerio | Jeff "Go" Moe |
| 23:46.53 | kwtm | rzr: In that case, you may not have as great an additional benefit getting N900. Seriously, the phone interface is clumsy and sucks. |
| 23:46.53 | rzr | uning gnu tools |
| 23:46.55 | rzr | true |
| 23:47.10 | MohammadAG | anyway, night |
| 23:47.22 | _trine | MohammadAG, go to bed |
| 23:47.23 | kwtm | rzr: Basically, I hate my N900 because it sucks, but because there's nothing else like it, I have no choice and I have to use it. |
| 23:47.37 | kwtm | rzr: I hear the N810 has a much better keyboard (4 rows ... drool...) |
| 23:47.50 | pupnik_ | kwtm: it's not better, the n810 pressure point is worse |
| 23:47.53 | rzr | n810 size is good |
| 23:47.57 | kerio | the n900 sucks, but everything else sucks much much more |
| 23:48.00 | kwtm | pupnik_: Oh, really? Okay. |
| 23:48.01 | rzr | no need to be smaller |
| 23:48.05 | joc | Deciding on a new phone and thinking about an older n900?? Are there other phones that will supoort maemo at this time or on the horizon? |
| 23:48.15 | pupnik_ | a 4-row n900 would be better |
| 23:48.22 | kwtm | kerio: Yeah, you could say that. It's just that, with a little effort, they could have made things SO much better! |
| 23:48.34 | *** join/#maemo jd (~jade@rocket.vel.lv) |
| 23:48.34 | *** join/#maemo jd (~jade@unaffiliated/jd) |
| 23:48.34 | _trine | you can turn an N900 into a torch so you can put the key in your door,, what do you want |
| 23:48.41 | _trine | :P |
| 23:48.44 | rzr | browsing the web on n810 is a tricky mission |
| 23:48.55 | kwtm | joc: Well, I think the N900 will take a long time to become obsolete because it's so powerful. |
| 23:48.59 | DocScrutinizer | pupnik_: that'S clearly a question of personal preference |
| 23:49.00 | pupnik_ | n900 had the best web browsing on the planet when it was released |
| 23:49.12 | kwtm | kerio: I dial the phone with vim now because I can't phoning with the actual built-in "Phone" app. |
| 23:49.13 | DocScrutinizer | (pressure point) |
| 23:49.14 | pupnik_ | DocScrutinizer: what would be a drawback to a 4-row kbd |
| 23:49.19 | pupnik_ | DocScrutinizer: oh ok |
| 23:49.33 | rzr | kwtm: well if only we can flash customrom w/ all drivers |
| 23:49.35 | *** join/#maemo APTX (~APTX@phpBB/developer/APTX) |
| 23:49.40 | derf | DocScrutinizer: No. The N810's keyboard is objectively terrible in this regard. |
| 23:49.49 | pupnik_ | i agree with derf |
| 23:49.57 | joc | I would have to agree after my research today ;). Very cool. I did notice something about bluetooth keyboard support having issue. Is this the case? |
| 23:49.59 | pupnik_ | it's like poking a puppy in the eye |
| 23:50.03 | DocScrutinizer | derf: no, I still like my N810 as much as my N900 |
| 23:50.11 | DocScrutinizer | wrt kbd |
| 23:50.18 | pupnik_ | DocScrutinizer: you're wrong - the pressure feedback is terrible |
| 23:50.26 | kwtm | I'm just waiting for my slide-out keyboard to break mechanically from all the sliding in and out. The onscreen keyboard is impractical. |
| 23:50.27 | DocScrutinizer | so what? |
| 23:50.29 | derf | The N900 was not a _big_ improvement. But it was an improvement. |
| 23:50.30 | rzr | well i get used to |
| 23:50.40 | rzr | it's still better than any on screen kb |
| 23:50.40 | DocScrutinizer | if it's ok for me, what can you possibly do about it? |
| 23:50.48 | pupnik_ | it's not ok for me |
| 23:50.58 | pupnik_ | i would have RETURNED the device |
| 23:51.01 | kwtm | derf: For me, the improvement in the N900 is that I can use a single SIM card to make phone calls and to get on the Internet. |
| 23:51.01 | rzr | remove your gloves |
| 23:51.21 | derf | I was just talking about the keyboard. |
| 23:51.35 | kwtm | I think the resistive touchscreen is *too* sensitive on my N900 and needs a software modification to make it more usable. |
| 23:51.41 | derf | The N900 is a huge improvement in many other regards. |
| 23:51.42 | DocScrutinizer | what's a mega pita on N810 is the key MAPPING |
| 23:51.51 | DocScrutinizer | esp of "blue" level |
| 23:51.56 | rzr | DocScrutinizer: easy to fix |
| 23:52.10 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, but hard to learn by heart :-P |
| 23:52.14 | kwtm | In particular, when you touch the high-rez screen with a finger that touches more than one pixel at a time, the N900 thinks you're tracing a tiny wiggly line. |
| 23:52.16 | rzr | i did |
| 23:52.36 | lcuk | kwtm, that is normal and has occured from dawn of time |
| 23:52.57 | kwtm | They should make it so that when that tiny line (the N900 thinks) I am tracing is entirely contained within the area of a button, it should be regarded as a button press, not a drag. |
| 23:53.05 | lcuk | centre of pressure point and it moves around |
| 23:53.13 | joc | What are the odds of the e7's drivers being realeased and maemo working there or on the n8 - not that symbian is gone with the nokia/m$ merger ? |
| 23:53.14 | kwtm | lcuk: It certainly has occurred from the dawn of time. I would say it has room for improvement. |
| 23:53.24 | joc | now/not |
| 23:53.28 | rzr | so getting a n900 to replace a n800 and use it as main phone does not worth it ? |
| 23:53.43 | _trine | how many people on this channel are suffering for paranoid depression since the announcement ? |
| 23:53.48 | lcuk | rzr, n900 is lightyears ahead of n800 |
| 23:53.51 | rzr | _o/ |
| 23:53.52 | joc | is |
| 23:54.09 | kwtm | lcuk: Okay, look here, I'm not going to debate what's "right" or what's "abnormal", ok? I'm just saying that under certain circumstances it would be easier to know that the user does not intend to trace, and put in a software patch for it. |
| 23:54.18 | rzr | lcuk: well it looks that both as stuck in the past |
| 23:54.29 | joc | Does anyone want to sell me a n900? :) |
| 23:54.36 | lcuk | rzr, not really I also adore my 10" inch slate |
| 23:54.38 | *** join/#maemo krayon (~krayon@pdpc/supporter/28for7/krayon) |
| 23:54.45 | rzr | _trine: actually last time i fell similar is when amiga died |
| 23:54.47 | lcuk | I have said for years I wanted one ;) |
| 23:54.57 | kwtm | rzr: Depends what you wanht of the phone. My N900 has suffered poor response time (e.g. 2-3 seconds to respond to button presses, sometimes causing me to miss calls). |
| 23:55.04 | _trine | rzr, \\o/ |
| 23:55.25 | rzr | but there is natami now |
| 23:55.42 | rzr | so expect some nit running on fpga in 10 years |
| 23:56.45 | rzr | actually i did not get a n900 before because i wanted to get that n9 or any meego phone |
| 23:57.19 | rzr | now i regreat i should have jump in the maemo5 train and save it from elopcalypse |
| 23:57.20 | kwtm | rzr: If you're holding out for a later phone, might want to get a N900 while there is still a manufacturer's warranty. |
| 23:57.21 | lcuk | kwtm, even with a wiggle in press (very wiggle infact, moving finger aorund once button is pressed before release) once I release finger it works |
| 23:57.31 | lcuk | which buttons don't operate like that for you? |
| 23:57.33 | joc | I'm assuming it could be possible for maemo and the e7 to be a couple if the drivers were realeased, by say, a disgruntled employee? |
| 23:58.21 | javispedro | ha ha, ha. |
| 23:58.32 | kwtm | lcuk: None of the buttons work like that for me. On investigation (by tapping on PenSketch, for example), I see that I'm tracing curlicues, which I presume is the cause. Otherwise, the buttons just simply don't respond half the time. |
| 23:59.23 | kwtm | By the way, lcuk, were you the one who wrote the backup system for the N900? I seem to recall something about that. You know, the app for backing up contacts and screen config and all that. |
| 23:59.29 | lcuk | I just opened calculator |
| 23:59.32 | lcuk | pressed "1" |
| 23:59.51 | lcuk | pressed (but not released) +, rolled finger all the way to bottom of "+" then released |
| 23:59.53 | lcuk | then pressed 2 |
