IRC log for #maemo on 20110124

00:00.00GeneralAntillesUgh, too many MeeGo mailing lists.
00:00.49xim_does anyone know where the settings to recaller are saved?  it used to crash all the time, so i did a factory restore on my phone, it worked a bit, then it would just go green and stay that way, then i uninstalled and reinstalled, now it wont turn green
00:01.10xim_id like to just blow away the settings before i totally give up on it, it was probably the most useful thing on my n900
00:01.42xim_i cant find any .recaller in ~ or ~/.config
00:05.22VenemoGeneralAntilles: +1
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00:22.51pupnikxim_: i'm not sure what that is for
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00:33.58MohammadAGnight peeps
00:34.08pupnikcu MohammadAG
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00:40.19peregrinare all the build utilities and includes available for maemo, eg. gcc automake libtool libc-dev etc?
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00:41.43peregrinon the device itself?
00:43.05wmaronenot on the device itself
00:43.13wmaronenot by default at least
00:45.24peregrinof course :) would i just need to add the Fremantle SDK repo? is this done at all?
00:45.52wmaronesome people do, however none of the tools are configured to run from /opt
00:46.10wmaroneso you'll need to make sure there's space on your root device
00:46.24peregrindamn, that problem still huh...
00:46.36wmaronewell, that problem will be there until the root device is huge
00:46.45wmaroneand it'll always be there on the N900
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00:49.49peregrinits so annoying they have /usr/include already filled. else it may be possible to mount in opt...
00:58.17peregrinmy itty bitty netbook cannot handle the hd space of a scratchbox install. it seems to install literally everything.
00:58.51peregrinmaybe i could run nfsd or something on my n900?
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04:40.09DocScrutinizerwmarone: not exactly correct. You don't need a huge root, if you got a sane partitioning
04:41.17DocScrutinizerperegrin_: wmarone: see
04:41.21DocScrutinizer~optification
04:41.21infobotoptification is probably a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3
04:42.34DocScrutinizerbtw same is true for /var
04:43.10DocScrutinizerif done right from beginning, a sane partitioning wouldn't need any kinky /opt at all
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05:04.15peregrin_yeah so i had heard.
05:05.13peregrin_nice title
05:06.26peregrin_im thinking /opt mount might come after /usr/lib is needed, so moving it entirely to /opt is out. maybe including a separate folder in LD path or whatev....
05:06.38peregrin_i never did hear of a nice, graceful solution
05:07.07pupnik_DocScrutinizer: what would be 'right' partitioning for n900?
05:08.17DocScrutinizerpupnik_: is that a rhetoric question?
05:08.31peregrin_pupnik_: an overlay on the mmc
05:08.41DocScrutinizereh?
05:09.04pupnik_i think i understand the reasons for the opt system..
05:09.11peregrin_just like openwrt does it, an overlay.
05:09.31DocScrutinizerpupnik_: I think you don't
05:09.34DocScrutinizer:-)
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05:09.49peregrin_required binaries to run on /, the rest on /opt.
05:10.07DocScrutinizerthat's what FHS says, yes
05:10.15wmaronethe claimed reason is due to onenand speed vs. eMMC speed
05:10.26DocScrutinizernah
05:10.30peregrin_right
05:11.30peregrin_i think its that thing they didnt want to do right
05:11.33pupnik_so i have an angstrom filesystem in 280 MB right now
05:11.50pupnik_with gcc and my dev libs
05:12.00peregrin_oh well, at least its debian based
05:13.13DocScrutinizerthe whole point is they got some binaries in /usr/(s)bin that evidently had to go to /(s)bin - e.g PA
05:13.44DocScrutinizerinstead of fixing this, they invented optification
05:14.38wmaroneeven then, 256MB is critically small
05:14.54DocScrutinizerthe reason probably is that there's no feasible way to do a SSU to a sane partitioning, from a system that's not using eMMC at all for binaries, like PR1.0/1.1
05:14.57peregrin_better than 4MB
05:16.12DocScrutinizerwmarone: nonsense, you can have a system with a rootfs as small as 16MB, just big enough to hold the bare minimum as defined by FHS
05:16.59peregrin_yeah, i agree. the root could be really small if they just set it up to use /opt correctly.
05:17.03DocScrutinizereverything else *may* go to mounted auxiliary volumes
05:17.27DocScrutinizernot /opt, peregrin_ . FHS and /usr and /var
05:17.29peregrin_im almost thinking there were systems that could not handle multiple PATHs...
05:18.06peregrin_whatev. /opt or /usr/local, its the same thing, FHS or not.
05:18.26peregrin_FHS is codification.
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05:18.39peregrin_cofification is the writing down of *existing* law.
05:19.01peregrin_in the same respect, fhs is the reflection of best practices.
05:19.14peregrin_this is obviously not best.
05:19.36RobbieThe1stCan anyone test something for me? Anyone not using backupmenu(or willing to remove it for a test)?
05:19.46peregrin_fhs would have been nice. best practices would have been nicer.
05:20.08RobbieThe1stI need someone to install bootmenu-n900 v1.9(latest in repo), and reboot with the keyboard open.
05:21.29peregrin_bootmenu? too rich for my blood.
05:22.32RobbieThe1stIt's just a package in extras-devel; no relation to multiboot or u-boot.
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05:45.06RST38hwell. moo.
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05:53.26MohammadAGmoo RST38h
05:54.34Necci smell mass brainfail
05:54.44Neccit is monday morning?
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05:55.43MohammadAGpretty much, unless you live two globe spins before us
05:55.58keriothe most you can get is one half and a couple of hours
05:56.25SpeedEvilStill Sunday in some places.
05:56.30Necci live on the mars
05:56.35keriohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B14
05:57.19RST38hWhat US state?
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06:05.14DocScrutinizermoo
06:06.18DocScrutinizerkerio: Mars will probably become a colony of India
06:06.36DocScrutinizererr
06:06.39DocScrutinizerRST38h: ^^^
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06:08.06jukwas about to post, power went down :(
06:09.39jukso i downloaded wikipedia dump older version, cause no pics in the newest i could see, but it's status inactive, what do i do?
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06:11.19juki started downloading the older one by someones suggestion, that i'll be able to see the pics
06:11.27jukhere
06:12.12jukexciting, it's 8.06 tarred :)
06:13.12juk8.06(G)
06:14.18jukwere downloading like month already
06:17.42DocScrutinizerI'd like to see a wiki.maemo.org dump for download
06:19.01RST38hExpecting maemo.org to go the way of symbian.org?
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06:27.19DocScrutinizerjust thinking there's a whole lot of situations where you'd need the wealth of info from wiki locally available, along the rationale why web based man pages are usually nonsense
06:29.01meceDocScrutinizer, yep
06:32.04DocScrutinizeralso compensating the lack of the ought-to-be free pdf copy of O'Reilly "maemo unleashed" that should have shipped with every N900, to complement the product with a user manual that's entitled for that name
06:34.35jukDocScrutinizer: i think we should contact maemo maintainers to release the dump, they should have backups
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06:34.54DocScrutinizers/O'Reilly/Addison Wessley/.
06:35.13jukthat sweet ofcourse
06:35.59jukwhat about pics from wikipedia, why i can't see a single picture
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06:39.26jukhow to activate shit, it's inactive
06:43.08jukDocScrutinizer: or you need curl and shell skils do grab the dump, and put here a link, so we all can download it, just idea
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06:44.39DocScrutinizerjuk: the wiki servers are already slow and much too often down
06:45.17juki see
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06:47.40DocScrutinizerI'd think they could handle some rsync, but for sure no massive "spider" attack
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06:49.37DocScrutinizerI once grabbed wiki.openmoko via wget, and while I really tried to keep out all the special pages, it still downloaded something like 10 times what's really needed
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07:27.59jukhaha, the trick was to disable the newest one
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07:33.03jukim crying, no PICS in 2010-01-16 either!
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09:17.39nzehi, i'm trying to use the rescue initrd as described on http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd
09:17.39nzeI get the n900 to boot into the rescue system, but then i'm a bit lost
09:18.10psycho_oreosyou might also want to ask that in #meego as well
09:18.38nzepsycho_oreos: thanks, i'll do that too
09:19.16psycho_oreos:)
09:20.21nzethe keyboard seems to be in qwerty mode, but i can't figure out how to type anything other than [a-zA-Z], especially no dashes or slashes, so i dont see how i'd go about mounting the root partition..
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09:32.51DocScrutinizer51that's indeed annoying.
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09:34.23nid0bleh, need a new nas :(
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09:40.49DocScrutinizer51errr, how would I create a desktop icon (any kind) to open a particular file in Notes?
09:42.49DocScrutinizer51more generic: how to place 'project' files on desktop and - on clicking them - open them with their associated app (the usual beaviour on very usual desktop)
09:43.34DocScrutinizer51s/very/every/
09:45.16fralswrite a wrapper script that looks up mimetype and performs the correct action? ;o
09:46.02DocScrutinizer51:-S
09:46.17RST38hActually, you can make a cusotm desktop file do this
09:46.37RST38hwhere it has execution line, type "/usr/bin/notes filename.txt" or something like this
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09:49.25DocScrutinizer51seems hd has a blind spot there
09:50.59RST38hhd has a lot of blind spots
09:51.11RST38hthis one is by no means a large one
09:51.23DocScrutinizer51hmm
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09:53.56RST38hsighs and goes back to watching Android device release news
09:53.57MohammadAGwaves
09:54.02RST38hHeya, Mohammad
09:54.21MohammadAGmorning RST38h
09:54.56SpeedEvilRST38h: N9 is coming out with Android.
09:55.27RST38hSpeed: Nah, it will be running WinXP.
09:55.36MohammadAGpfft, Win7
09:55.45MohammadAGand it'll be ARM
09:55.56MohammadAGrunning Win7 under qemu
09:55.57SpeedEvilNaah - WinXP, an ARM version.
09:56.01SpeedEvilSpecially for nokia.
09:56.22AppiahWhy not WinME? atleast you could shit done on that OS
09:56.31MohammadAGis the N9 the new Duke Nukem Forever?
09:56.58RST38hMohammad: it is the new Amiga.
09:57.37fralshey duke nukem forever is coming out 3rd of may
09:57.39fralsor was it 12th?
09:57.49MohammadAGI think I didn't exist Amiga-times
09:57.59MohammadAGOMG
09:58.11MohammadAGfrals leaked the N9 release date, May 3 or May 12!
09:58.30RST38hMohammad: too bad, it was ages ahead of its time
09:58.33fralsthe trailer is awesome for dnf ;D
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09:59.06MohammadAGhe's using coded talk to leak stuff, his last message means the N9 sucks :P
09:59.24RST38hI think we should apply thermorectal cryptoanalysis here
10:00.23MohammadAGdo it
10:00.39RST38hgoes off to heat up the iron
10:00.39DocScrutinizer51RST38h: try osso_notes --help; it clearly states how to use notes ;-P
10:02.02RST38hDoc: Freaking sh....
10:09.57MohammadAGalterego, ping
10:12.16alteregoMohammadAG: about to have a shower, I'll talk to you in a few minutes.
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10:12.46DocScrutinizer51RST38h: indeed. FFS! Need to hack up some ~/.notes or gconf key, just because Nokia devels once again just did what gui designers asked for. Spank them hard for being lazy and nasty
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10:15.59Venemogood morning everyone
10:16.26SpeedEvilVenemo: Your task for today is to convince RST38h that it is a good morning.
10:17.21DocScrutinizerI'd be interested in that argumentation as well :-/
10:18.05VenemoRST38h: this is a good morning!
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10:29.18DocScrutinizergrrrr, .osso/osso-notes/.g_keyfile   .osso/osso-notes/.permanent_state
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10:32.34alteregoMohammadAG: pong
10:33.09alteregoIt is indeed a good mornikng
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10:40.15RST38hVenemo: Is it, really?
10:43.31VenemoRST38h: yes, it is :)
10:43.41VenemoRST38h: give me reasons why not!
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10:58.17toadpolehey someone help me out here? i just got my class 10 micro sd, and the write speed is 16 mb/s in mass storage mode, but 4 mb/s when i put it into my card reader... is it genuine?
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10:59.09chxthat's fairly impossible to say
10:59.09Venemotoadpole: obviously there is an issue with the card reader
10:59.21chxto boot , class 10 is only 10 MByte/s not 16
10:59.54alteregoIs the card reader USB 2.0 ?
11:02.15toadpoleit should be.. no way to check, though.. i was just wondering, when copying to the card in mass storage mode, does it buffer the data on the phone, or copy directly?
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11:02.48toadpoleany way to benchmark sd on the n900?
11:02.58alteregoIt should copy directly, there maybe be a small about of buffering but when transfering large files it shouldn't affect your statistics.
11:03.34toadpolei tried copying a 1.14 gb file, gave a constant 16 mb/s
11:03.55toadpolethough its not very fast copying in filebox
11:04.10alteregoCopies on device are awful ..
11:04.24toadpolethat's to be expected, then?
11:04.59alteregoThe N900 is quite a good sd card reader when plugged in in mass storage, should give you good USB 2.0 speeds.
11:05.02timeless_xchatiirc there's a shared bus
11:05.08alteregoAt least, I've not had problems tbh.
11:05.19alteregootoh, the internal SD card reader on my laptop is quicker.
11:05.26alteregoBy maybe 2-3Mb/s
11:05.47timeless_xchatwhich means copying from one point on the bus via the cpu(?) to another point mostly sucks
11:06.02timeless_xchatonly using the bus once is much better
11:06.33toadpolethough i'm just wondering, class 10 would imply 10 mb/s write speed, right? how come i'm getting 16, then?
11:07.00alteregotoadpole: these things aren't an exact science. a class 10 card maybe perform better or worse.
11:07.09alteregoThe quality of SD cards varies.
11:07.43toadpoleyeah, though that much of a difference? wouldn't that be like a 7200 rpm hdd performing at 10000 rpm?
11:07.50timeless_xchatnews near you: Helsinki R Kioski Newsagent Robbed at Knifepoint
11:08.08timeless_xchat... welcome to HEL
11:08.24alteregotoadpole: I don't know, as I don't know what you're doing to benchmark this stuff :P
11:08.39alteregotoadpole: you might be getting megabytes confused with megabits for all I know :P
11:08.52toadpolehttp://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.heise.de/software/download/h2testw/50539&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DH2testw%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
11:08.53alteregoJust be happy that your card appears to be performing well at least :)
11:08.58toadpolethat's what i'm using
11:09.08toadpolethe main thing is, meego needs a class 6 minimum
11:09.14alteregorubbish
11:09.19alteregoI use Class 4 with MeeGo
11:09.23alteregoAnd it works fine for me.
11:09.30toadpoleno performance flaws, then?
11:09.36alteregoIn fact my class 4 works better than a lot of class 6s :D
11:09.54alteregoAt least from the benchmarks I was generating for our 1.1 images last year.
11:10.28alteregotoadpole: we were measuring startup times of applications (firefox in particular) and I Was getting, with my class 4, some of the best.
11:10.37alteregoWe actually used my benchmarks for our QA afaik
11:10.48Venemoalterego: how much better is the eMMC?
11:11.00alteregoVenemo: it should be equivalent to a class 10
11:11.06toadpolewell, i guess i'll give it a go, then... though i just wanted to know if i got ripped off, this 16 gig cost me 49 usd
11:11.09Venemoalterego: sounds nice
11:11.30alteregotoadpole: well, it sounds like you're getting good performance from it.
11:11.40alterego(At least in the N900)
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11:12.12alteregoMeeGo app startup times are slow, so you will hopefully be better off than with a C4 card, but I think most of us that are doing MeeGo work are using C4 cards.
11:12.24toadpolecould you possibly do me a favor and see what speed your class 4 copies at in mass storage mode?
11:12.36eichiis it better to connect the n900 all the time to usb power, if i'm at the laptop and unplug, if it is full or doenst matter much?
11:12.50alteregoeichi: it doesn't matter much.
11:13.08alteregoeichi: mine is connected all the time because I'm developing and using it as a 3G modem.
11:13.19eichialterego: buy a new battery all, maybe 2 years should enaught or?
11:13.20alteregoI've had it almost dead on a year and not had any problems.
11:13.35MohammadAGeMMC is awesome for MeeGo
11:13.47alteregoWhich reminds me, it's my N900s birthday next week.
11:13.50MohammadAGjust partition it with gparted
11:14.34alteregoMohammadAG: what did you want earlier? :)
11:14.50alteregoMohammadAG: also, I thought you said you were going to donate last night? If you did, I've not got any indication :D
11:15.54DocScrutinizereMMC write ass rage = 12MB/s
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11:16.24MohammadAGalterego, I forgot :/
11:16.35toadpolewell, thanks guys, much appreciated!
11:16.35alteregoDocScrutinizer: "write ass rage"?
11:16.38MohammadAGalterego, also, pounds rejected on my card :P
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11:16.46MohammadAGalterego, mass storage
11:16.48alteregoMohammadAG: it's okay, was just curious.
11:16.55MohammadAGdrop the m and the sto
11:17.02MohammadAG= ass rage
11:17.07alteregoI thought DocScrutinizer was being kinky ..
11:18.25DocScrutinizerwonders what makes timeless_xchat think OMAP IF MMC1 and IF MMC2 are a shared common bus
11:19.40eichiis there a howto, to use n900 as modem? maybe i need this to next weeks
11:19.49DocScrutinizerMMC2 to eMMC even has 8 data bit, while uSD IF has 4
11:20.08DocScrutinizers/uSD/MMC1 uSD/
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11:23.16alteregoeichi: plug it in and use it :)
11:23.16alteregoeichi: what OS are you using?
11:23.17timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer: from memory, perf was abysmal for certain paths
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11:23.17CarnequeI set shortcuts to my desktop, but the icons are just a few pixels WxL.  Any ideas why icons for htop, nmap, and IFTraf Monitor are so tiny?
11:23.17MohammadAGregardless
11:23.17MohammadAGrunning MeeGo on the eMMC is much faster than using a uSD
11:23.17MohammadAGprobably cause swap's on the uSD...
11:23.17MohammadAGlast exam the day after tomorrow :D
11:23.17timeless_xchatalthough that may have been the fault of something else
11:23.17eichialterego: mamo5 latest and archlinux latest
11:23.17DocScrutinizeryeah, when using both interfaces, you run into swap hell after some 200MB copied
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11:23.34alteregoeichi: when you connect the N900 in PC suite mode, a new serial device should apear in /dev ttyACM2
11:23.38DocScrutinizerand swap definitely shares eMMC bus, with MyDocs
11:23.41alteregoYou can use that as a modem device.
11:23.59eichialterego: ah okay, means i just need a general modem software then
11:24.07eichiokay, cool
11:24.42alteregoYup
11:24.49eichialterego: which programm do you prefer for that? (just use wicd for all network things at the moment, never used a modem)
11:24.51alteregoAnd your operator internet settings.
11:24.52DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: maybe YOUR swap is on uSD
11:25.06MohammadAGyeah, on MeeGo it is
11:25.13alteregoeichi: I use ubuntu/gnome/network-manager works out of the box
11:25.22eichik
11:25.27Venemohey MohammadAG
11:25.29alteregoeichi: has a little setup wizzard where you choose operator etc.
11:25.29timeless_xchatoh, right, swap
11:25.39eichiokay, thanks, i will try later
11:25.47MohammadAGhi Venemo
11:25.56VenemoMohammadAG: how're you?
11:26.05*** join/#maemo strcpy (~Hamid@unaffiliated/strcpy)
11:26.25MohammadAGcrying over the lack of support for a perfectly good fingerprint sensor
11:26.27MohammadAG:p
11:26.30eichiDocScrutinizer can meego with n900 call and sms and does it run usable (speed i mean, bugs are okay)
11:26.46MohammadAGN900 no longer made by nokia <-- tmo's on crack today
11:26.52alteregoeichi: yes, yes and yes.
11:27.04alteregoeichi: not constantly though, power management isn't done yet.
11:27.13eichii just saw some videos on youtube, that looks very slow
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11:27.25alteregoeichi: yeah, old videos,
11:27.34MohammadAGOMG alterego http://twitpic.com/3spp01
11:27.39alteregoIt runs quite well now after first boot, though again, app startup time is a little slow.
11:27.43alteregofennec is quite heavy.
11:27.43timeless_xchatanyway, my point was merely that some efforts to *measure* perf run afoul of a shared bus
11:27.56eichiokay, then i will try a multiboot with that, if i have a microSD and exams are over
11:28.11alteregoMohammadAG: :D
11:28.12DocScrutinizer51alterego: and pwer mgmt won't get mature ever
11:28.21alteregoDocScrutinizer51: ever the pessimist.
11:28.31MohammadAGthis is freaking cool
11:28.35DocScrutinizer51no, simple facts
11:28.37eichialterego: is megoo debian derivate? does it use qt as default?
11:28.42alteregoDocScrutinizer51: what facts?
11:28.59alteregoeichi: it's not debian no, and yes it is all based on Qt.
11:29.01MohammadAGred hat, not debian
11:29.01DocScrutinizer51a prper PM needs to get designed into every bit of a system
11:29.17DocScrutinizer51meego failed on this
11:29.23MohammadAGhmm, how?
11:29.24alteregom'hmm
11:29.29eichihm, this is like suse with rpm packages?
11:29.36alteregoeichi: yes
11:29.36DocScrutinizer51and I bet they won't nuke and start from scratch
11:29.38VenemoMohammadAG: " N900 no longer made by nokia " -> wut?
11:29.50timeless_xchatrpm, not red hat
11:29.56eichiVenemo: now its made by McDonalds ;D
11:30.03DocScrutinizer51ergo: no proper PM on meego ever
11:30.10Venemoeichi: wtf?
11:30.20eichiVenemo: joke
11:30.20VenemoDocScrutinizer51: why not?
11:30.21MohammadAGVenemo, tmo post
11:30.21alteregoDocScrutinizer51: I think that's a rather broad and silly statement.
11:30.30SpeedEvilI can still buy nokia on nokia.co.luk
11:30.33korhojoa_Hey, anyone know where the wep/wpa(2) keys are stored for the wlan connections?
11:30.33SpeedEviln900
11:30.36MohammadAGyeah, it's part of happy meals now
11:30.44SpeedEvilOh
11:30.51timeless_xchatspeedevil : availablility for purchase is a function of stock
11:30.51korhojoa_buy three happy meals, get a n900
11:30.52SpeedEvilIt says 'temporarily out of stock'
11:30.55korhojoa_you need some coupon thing
11:30.59SpeedEvilOops.
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11:31.06DocScrutinizer51alterego: I'm not in a mood to argue
11:31.06timeless_xchatand isn't necessarily connected to manufacturing
11:31.10alteregoDocScrutinizer51: with the exception of the accelerometer polling you mentioned yesterday, what other systems aren't adequate to your power management requirements?
11:31.39SpeedEvilRElated to the above stock query.
11:31.47andre900korhojoa: in gconf
11:31.54SpeedEvilDoes anyone know where to purchase replacemetnt rearbuds for rthe headset?
11:31.58MohammadAGalterego, keep in mind that MeeGo is a handwarmer at the moment :P
11:32.00SpeedEvilear
11:32.05MohammadAGtill the bug on the tracker is fixed
11:32.20alterego:)
11:32.30alteregoDepends where you put the N900, I like it down my trousers.
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11:33.22DocScrutinizer51alterego: explain to me how meego architects could fail so elementarily on sensorfw, and maybe I admit they might have done a proper job on all the other subsystems
11:33.28korhojoa_andre900: where?
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11:33.53DocScrutinizer51until then I assume equal incompetence across all meego development
11:34.14SpeedEvilOh - that's nice. Ebay has 'original WH-205's for 3.29.
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11:34.15MohammadAGalterego, that sounds... weird
11:34.18alteregoDocScrutinizer51: I'm just saying that with the amount of people working on it your're making massive accusations that you can't actually back up.
11:34.24MohammadAGor maybe I'm too much of a perv
11:34.34DocScrutinizer51pff
11:34.47alteregoDocScrutinizer51: I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but you're sort of trolling :P
11:35.08timeless_xchatshouldn't meego trolling be elsewhere?
11:35.11timeless_xchat:)
11:35.18alteregotimeless_xchat: that too ;)
11:35.50DocScrutinizer51no, I'm just tossing over another notion on your "yet"
11:36.05MohammadAGyeah, let's switch tabs to #meego
11:36.18chxSpeedEvil: Original by Nokla ;)
11:36.19timeless_xchatisn't in there atm :)
11:37.17timeless_xchat<PROTECTED>
11:37.18DocScrutinizer51alterego: actually your statement "just no proper PM *yet*" was way more silly and bold than my reply
11:37.25alteregoDocScrutinizer51: I'm sure Stskeeps would be very interested to hear what you have to say about sensorfw/that-kernel-driver ..
11:37.27timeless_xchator something like that for keys fwiw
11:37.45timeless_xchat=> korhojoa
11:37.45DocScrutinizer51alterego: he's not
11:37.54alteregoDocScrutinizer51: m'hmm ..
11:37.55DocScrutinizer51heasked 'is it upstream?'
11:37.58timeless_xchat(use tab completion in xterm)
11:37.59SpeedEvilchx: I have serious doubts as to the authenticity. However - I'm only hoping at worst for the rubber bits - which are not hard to make
11:38.08DocScrutinizer51CBA
11:38.15alteregoGreat,
11:38.31VenemoDocScrutinizer51: no offense, but if you think they're doing it wrong and you know how to do it right, then why don't you contribute? :)
11:38.43MohammadAGnot the upstream argument again, please, we had that yesterday
11:38.48alteregoDocScrutinizer51: what's the name of the working driver? And where can I get the source for it?
11:39.22alteregoDocScrutinizer51: I will happily write patches myself, (I'll accredit you for finding the bug of course)
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11:41.53timeless_xchatalterego : s/accredit/credit/, i think
11:42.11alteregoYes, we all know I'm rubbish at English.
11:43.30alteregocontinues making his way through the awful coffee.
11:45.03MohammadAGstill can't get what people see in coffee
11:45.56VenemoMohammadAG: I agree, tea is much better
11:48.50alteregoI like both :P
11:49.19Venemomy personal favourite is Twinnings' Earl Grey tea
11:49.30alteregoOh yeah, I love Earl Grey
11:49.40alteregoSuper tasty
11:49.53Venemothey have another good one, called "Lady Grey" which is even more delicious
11:50.00timeless_xchatiirc, twinnings is threatening to leave England
11:50.42alteregoWell, it's not like we actually grow tea in england ..
11:50.49Venemohehe
11:51.17timeless_xchatwell, you had a long tradition of growing tea bags
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11:51.49timeless_xchathops off a bus and heads home (it's snowing in HEL)
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11:53.04MohammadAGsnowing in HEL, hah
11:53.12MohammadAGadds another L
11:53.29VenemoMohammadAG: there's a Lordi song with that title
11:54.38MohammadAGlol
11:55.53VenemoMohammadAG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Snows_in_Hell
11:56.49MohammadAGI didn't know there were finnish heavy metal bands...
11:57.12VenemoMohammadAG: there are many
11:57.27JaffaMohammadAG: One even won Eurovision (the aforementioned Lordi)
11:57.38sig^Jaffa:
11:57.47sig^eh.
11:57.49sig^right.
11:57.57sig^sorry about that, tab fail.
11:58.12VenemoMohammadAG: their best song (imo) is "Devil is a looser"
11:58.37sig^(:  someone who likes to loosen it up or something?
11:59.00DocScrutinizer51~dict looser
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11:59.37VenemoDocScrutinizer51: correct. I accidentally typed one more 'o' than I should have
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12:02.27VenemoDocScrutinizer51: thx
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12:06.05Venemowhy is it that the media player displays some embedded album arts and doesn't display some others?
12:09.49lardmanmmm, blt
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12:13.27alteregoAlmost lunch time, got a noice pizza for lunch ::)
12:16.55MohammadAGalterego, I can haz slice?
12:17.01alteregoSure,
12:17.06alteregoThat'll be 20 pounds
12:17.15alteregochuckles.
12:18.04MohammadAGso the whole pizza's £160?
12:18.27alteregoNo, I'm just marking up the slice I'm selling to you to make a profit :P
12:18.45BCMMthey worked out how to send pizza over CTCP now?
12:19.04alteregoIsn't that what the P stands for?
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12:29.59alteregoSomeone just came up with a cool idea on tmo
12:30.04alteregoA paypal app
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12:30.25alteregoIt'd have to be secure, but basically it'd allow single click donations for applications that want to use this infrastructure.
12:30.35alteregoponders
12:30.49psycho_oreosnot every one likes paypal :)
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12:30.55alteregopsycho_oreos: so?
12:31.01alteregopsycho_oreos: not everyone likes the N900
12:31.19MohammadAGalterego, I'd like that too
12:31.26MohammadAGalterego, maybe even a library
12:31.30alteregoIt's attempting to make things a little easier for people to promote support through donations.
12:31.43MohammadAGsomething that can be implemented in all apps
12:31.43alteregoMohammadAG: it would be a library and a control panel applet that they could use to configure their account.
12:32.00alteregoThen your app would use the library to request a donation.
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12:32.07MohammadAGyep
12:32.39alteregoWe could even include in the configuration system a registry of apps installed that have donate facilities.
12:32.50alteregoSo they could do it from there as well as the application about dialog or whatever.
12:33.01MohammadAGepic idea
12:33.11MohammadAGhave it at my desk at 8PM
12:33.15alteregoHah
12:33.30alteregoI'll look into it, the biggest concern is making it secure.
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12:34.09alteregoI can't think of a way to keep the password information secure.
12:34.58alteregoWe don't want someone to write a script that can steal peoples paypal information.
12:35.15alteregoDocScrutinizer51: any ideas?
12:35.39ShadowJKIf there was a www widget you'd just put the paypal website inside that
12:35.59MohammadAGuse the API?
12:36.03MohammadAGif any
12:36.33MohammadAGthere is a www widget :P
12:36.40MohammadAGQWebKit
12:36.51MohammadAGbut the point is he wants a one-click donation
12:36.53alteregoThat's not really what I had in mind :P
12:36.57alteregoExactly.
12:37.04MohammadAGthat should increase donations by mistake
12:37.13MohammadAGUser = ???
12:37.18MohammadAGDev = profit!
12:37.29alteregoHahah
12:37.32alteregowin win!
12:37.39Venemoalterego: isn't this a bit greedy?
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12:37.56alteregoVenemo: isn't what a bit greedy? It's still up to the user to donate.
12:38.03alteregoWe're not forcing them to do anything.
12:38.21MohammadAGit's just a glorified donate button
12:38.44MohammadAGwe aren't? Guess I'll have to edit it
12:38.53jacekowskialterego: encrypt it
12:38.54alteregoApparently, so some people are saying, it's currently too hard to donate.
12:39.04alteregoOr they don't know where the donate facility is for an app.
12:39.09MohammadAGlook on the bright side
12:39.14MohammadAGyou'll be beating ovi
12:39.18alteregojacekowski: that's fine, but anyone with the source to this app can decrypt it
12:39.19MohammadAGpayments there suck
12:39.25jacekowskialterego: so?
12:39.31MohammadAGalterego, make the encryption closed source
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12:39.38jacekowskiMohammadAG: look at me
12:39.38MohammadAGthen give me the source
12:39.45alteregoHeh
12:39.46jacekowskialterego: look at kwallet
12:39.49MohammadAGoh right, block all downloads
12:39.51MohammadAGin poland
12:39.54alteregojacekowski: pin code?
12:39.59jacekowskialterego: it's all in encrypted wallet
12:39.59alteregoThat's a good idea ..
12:40.04jacekowskialterego: that's unlocked with one password
12:40.19jacekowskialterego: and it gives access to only some apps, asking user for permission before
12:40.25alteregojacekowski: you reckon using a pin code would suffice?
12:40.31jacekowskino
12:40.43jacekowskiunless it's a long one
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12:40.49psycho_oreos9^4 possibilities
12:40.56jacekowskibut 256bit rsa key can be factorised in 6 minutes
12:40.58MohammadAGwindows bitlocker has a 48-digit key
12:40.59alteregoGood point ..
12:41.01psycho_oreoserr 10^4
12:41.15MohammadAGAES256?
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12:41.22jacekowskiyes
12:41.24jacekowski6 minutes
12:41.36jacekowskithat's all you need on average hardware
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12:42.00jacekowski4 digits pin
12:42.06jacekowskihmm, 5s on n900
12:42.08jacekowskior less
12:42.29alteregohrm.
12:42.30MohammadAGAES256 is weak?
12:42.35MohammadAGI thought it takes ages to decrypt
12:42.45psycho_oreoswhy not GPG? lol
12:42.56psycho_oreosRSA
12:43.17jacekowskiehh rsa
12:43.19jacekowskinot aes
12:43.34jacekowskipsycho_oreos: ekhm you obviously have no idea what is it
12:44.04psycho_oreosjacekowski, little, its the use of PK
12:44.34jacekowskiit's just all popular ciphers packaged into one pretty package
12:45.02psycho_oreosI mean the RSA heh
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12:45.08psycho_oreoss/mean/meant/
12:45.28jacekowskirsa is weak
12:45.43jacekowskiwith smaller keys
12:45.50jacekowskiand omap has hardware acceleration for aes
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12:46.08alteregojacekowski: have you ported kwallet then?
12:46.08psycho_oreosyeah but that's not available in stock kernel no? :)
12:46.30tybolltwhat's this buzz about a semi-pad running meego?
12:46.33jacekowskialterego: i'm just giving an example
12:46.36jacekowskialterego: gnome has alternative
12:46.44jacekowskibut on maemo i would implement it differently
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12:47.09jacekowskiideally - using hardware protection builtin into omap
12:47.13alteregojacekowski: well you're good with this kind of thing, what would you recommend, we need to keep it simple
12:47.33jacekowskibut that's not going to happen without docs
12:48.01alteregoI'm not against an encrypted keyring thing like in gnome
12:48.19jacekowskiit's similiar thing to kwallet
12:48.28jacekowskijust implemented slightly differently
12:48.38alteregoEven if it requires a user to enter in a password upon every donation/session.
12:49.10jacekowskiwell, question is, do we want to protect user against theft of device and then leaked password
12:49.24jacekowskior what
12:49.26alteregoyes
12:49.36alteregohow would password be leaked?
12:49.46jacekowskiwell, if it's stored on device
12:49.53jacekowskiand somebody steals it
12:49.55jacekowskiand it's unencrypted
12:50.18jacekowskithen you have another option of password leaking - malicious app
12:50.25alteregowell the user is an idiot if they're storing their keyring password on device.
12:51.01jacekowskiideally what would it be is daemon running as separate user
12:51.02tybolltalterego: Sorry no, they user is an idiot, period. ;-)
12:51.32alteregojacekowski: I was thinking a dbus service
12:51.39jacekowskiyeah that would do
12:51.43jacekowskibut dbus can be sniffed
12:51.47jacekowskiwhich isn't nice
12:52.03alteregosure, passwords would be hashed from client to server in dbus calls
12:52.24jacekowskibut on security side of it
12:52.32jacekowskiclient requests password from server
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12:53.43jacekowskiserver then verifies if md5 of program requesting password matches stored md5
12:53.49jacekowskior some other has
12:53.54jacekowskimaybe sha1
12:54.12jacekowskiif it matches and no debugger is attached to it
12:54.16jacekowskijust passes password
12:54.36jacekowskiotherwise it would warn user
12:55.00jacekowskiof course - first time after boot it would have to ask for password
12:55.47jacekowskiand then possibly password would expire after couple minutes
12:55.56jacekowskiso user would have to enter it again
12:56.11alteregoYeah
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12:57.30jacekowskibut you would really need check if app hasn't changed
12:57.41jacekowskiso password is only sent to app that stored it
12:57.58jacekowskiand then it could be used pretty much system wide for any password
12:58.22alteregoI was thinking no pass sending: app requests donation, keyring handles validation and submission
12:59.03alteregoSo the requesting app dbus would be: donate://paypal/?ammount=10usd
13:00.33alteregothen the service would say, sure you want to donate x to app? enter pass, then the service talks to paypal with auth details and opens reciept in browser context.
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13:04.22jacekowskiwell, that could be done in another demon
13:04.42alteregoExactly, it would all be done in our "donation/keyring" daemon
13:05.14alteregoThe app just requests the donation. The user says yes, enters keyring unlock password after the daemon prompts for authorisation.
13:05.17jacekowskikeyring daemon could have pluggin support
13:05.29alteregojacekowski: yes, we'll make it nice and modular :)
13:05.51jacekowskishame that maemo security is so messed up
13:05.57alteregoWhat security?
13:05.59jacekowskiand you have so much shit running as root
13:06.02alteregochuckles.
13:06.17jacekowskiremember to mlock all your memory
13:06.22jacekowskiso it's not swapped
13:06.28alteregom'kay
13:07.16alteregoIs there anything good for collaboration for software projects? I'd like us to brain storm this information somewhere other than IRC :)
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13:07.48Robot101is pretty sure some kind of keyring daemon already exists which could be used here... :P
13:07.53Robot101like, four of them at least
13:08.09Jaffaalterego: http://www.ietherpad.com/ ?
13:08.19Robot101gnome has one, kde has one, there's a freedesktop project iirc, and meego also has a SSO framework and accounts library which is on gitorious too
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13:09.20Jaffaalterego: But I'd also suggest following on in maemo-developers on the old thread about putting donate button support into packages (ostensibly for use by maemo.org/downloads/, but could also be used by modified HAM/Fapman/appdownloader/...)
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13:19.57alteregohttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12253228
13:21.39MohammadAGassuming it's in Qt, it can easily be plugged into fapman
13:21.41SpeedEvilalterego: yeah - someone linked on another chanel.
13:21.44MohammadAGwe need some XSBC-Donation-URL in debian/control though
13:21.47SpeedEvilalterego: Can we say sponsored?
13:21.57JaffaMohammadAG: That's what my proposal was :-p
13:22.00alteregoHeh
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13:22.26trxMohammadAG http://gitorious.org/mediabar/mediabar/blobs/master/src/maemo5deviceevents.cpp is ProximityD required for this DBus connection?
13:22.41OkropNickAre microSD cards with capacity higher than 16GB also supported for N900?
13:22.54Jaffaalterego: MohammadAG: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-January/023980.html
13:22.58MohammadAGtrx, that's for the screen, not the proximity
13:22.58alteregoOkropNick: they should work.
13:23.00SpeedEvilOkropNick: yes, as I understand it.
13:23.12MohammadAGany SDHC one works
13:23.20OkropNickthx alterego, SpeedEvil
13:23.25trxMohammadAG oh, i need the proximity :/
13:23.31SpeedEvilMohammadAG: But it's SDXC
13:24.01MohammadAG32GBs is SDHC afaik
13:24.09SpeedEvilhmm
13:24.20MohammadAGtrx, MainWindow.cpp, it doesn't need a class on its own
13:24.24MohammadAGerr
13:24.27MohammadAGWidget.cpp
13:24.43alteregoWow, that's the worse spamming I've seen on tmo ..
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13:28.18trxMohammadAG yep, ty
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14:19.06DocScrutinizermeh, I sugest you study how pgp and kwallet are working. E.G you MUST NOT transmit any PIN pr passphrase over dbus
14:19.09DocScrutinizer~2119
14:19.09infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
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14:20.36DocScrutinizerfor maemo where everybody and his braindead dog can gain root priv, there's simply NO way to implement such a thing in any semi sane way
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14:21.26alteregoIt's not so much about being root though is it.
14:21.34DocScrutinizerno matter what you do, it won't take me longer than a day to implement a malware that automatically donates repeatedly to my account
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14:24.52JaffaDocScrutinizer: Indeed; anything on Maemo has to just be a proxy to PayPal (say)'s "donate" page.
14:25.07alteregoHrm
14:25.58DocScrutinizeractually even then you can place a MITM proxy on N900 easily
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14:27.10DocScrutinizerpaypal has no TAN concept
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14:27.19alteregoYes, I know you're right, but does that mean we shouldn't do this?
14:27.27Venemoalterego: please comment on this one: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=927376#post927376
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14:27.37DocScrutinizerso it's immanently vulnerable
14:28.34MohammadAGalterego, there's no reason you shouldn't do it
14:28.59DocScrutinizerthere's nothing you can do about paypal, but you'll lose your face in developer guilde if you even support exploiting that paypal vulnerability
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14:29.29MohammadAGjust have proper checks in place
14:29.35DocScrutinizerpff
14:29.57DocScrutinizeryou don't get it, do you, eventually?
14:30.02Venemoachipa: ping
14:30.13achipaVenemo: pong
14:30.28alteregoVenemo: done
14:30.58Venemoachipa: since you are an insider, could you please say something about http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=927376#post927376 ?
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14:32.22Sicelo~flashing
14:32.23infobotrumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
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14:34.07lcukVenemo, i understand the frustration, but its got to be a difficult thing
14:34.16Venemolcuk: no, it isn't
14:34.31Venemolcuk: the SDK release a year ago could do this "difficult thing", until they broke it.
14:34.55yaccAny idea if there is a dbus-scripts package for Ubuntu/Debian, ...
14:35.14Venemolcuk: also it doesn't do this for any other targets. eg. it doesn't package my desktop apps when I run them. so. yes, it is very annoying
14:35.47achipaVenemo: there is a gap between things happening, so that you get these cases that are obviously non-optimal
14:36.19achipanow, if we waited for the various teams to resolve this, sync, etc, that would be the final release
14:36.19Venemoachipa: that I can understand if this was some new feature request. however this time they simply broke something that worked very well.
14:36.46lcukVenemo, qt-creator must also know where to move not just the binary, but all support files too?
14:36.56lcukie it might work for copying just binary sometimes
14:37.12Venemothe "deploy" and "run" options are separate in every other IDE.
14:37.23achipathe thing is the whole build-deploy-publish is getting changed, and publish is a piece of a missing puzzle ATM
14:37.32VenemoVisual Studio solves this difficult thing by being able to specify the necessary support files.
14:38.15Venemoachipa: if you have the necessary privileges on the Qt JIRA, could you please at least reopen the bug I linked?
14:38.17lcukVenemo, what if one of the support files requires registering rather than just copying?
14:38.22lcuklike needing to update sudoers or something
14:38.46Venemolcuk: the config dialog in VS has an option for that too
14:38.53achipaVenemo: I have no superpowers on Qt bugs, so I can only +1 you
14:39.03Venemoachipa: can you contact someone who has?
14:39.54achipaI'm not sure it would make things better or worse :) in terms that I already have a few bugs on the topic that were declared invalid/out of scope
14:40.07MohammadAG<lcuk> ie it might work for copying just binary sometimes
14:40.14MohammadAGthere was an option to copy files over
14:40.26Venemoachipa: I also don't get why there is a separate Qt Creator version for MeeGo. this is a bloody mess
14:40.34achipabut rest assured the topic is not closed and (surprise) a good DX something we actually push for :)
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14:41.10achipaVenemo: that's mostly timing, as long as there are no devices out there, it would only be dead weight for the integration process
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14:41.26achipa(i.e. it would only slow down the 'live' symbian/maemo releases)
14:41.48Venemoachipa: yes, you pushed for good DX for a year now, but it actually didn't get any better. :(
14:42.05Venemoachipa: sorry, I know it is not you personally who is responsible for this
14:42.10Venemoachipa: so sorry for the bashing
14:42.20Venemoachipa: but there is noone around with whom we can talk about this
14:42.24MohammadAGachipa, devices will be out eventually
14:42.39MohammadAG... or not? :)
14:42.52VenemoMohammadAG: the N900 is already out, so what?
14:43.00achipanp, I understand it can get frustrating occasionally (you should hear my assorted anyazas ;) )
14:43.05MohammadAGMeeGo devices
14:43.11Venemoachipa: :)
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14:43.31Venemoachipa: can you point me to the last nightly release which didn't have this feature broken yet?
14:43.54achipaMohammadAG: yeah, but that's wasn't the point of this release
14:44.10VenemoMohammadAG: N900 is a MeeGo device if you install MeeGo
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14:44.16ZogGhttp://i.imgur.com/STT6c.jpg - jpg is shitty and xfce4 is standart but i like that wallpapper
14:44.26ZogGpaper*
14:44.35MohammadAGVenemo, it's not a consumer's MeeGo device
14:44.49ZogGno full support
14:45.03VenemoMohammadAG: not yet
14:45.20achipaVenemo: no idea really, sorry :(
14:45.21ZogGeven when maemo is official n900 Os it's not supported by Nokia as it should be, you expect them to support meego on it?
14:45.38Venemowho cares about nokia support?
14:45.39achipaVenemo: though I do plan on 'silently' releasing my build on gitorious
14:45.57Venemoachipa: what are the highlights of your build? :)
14:45.57MohammadAGit's no longer silent :P
14:46.10*** join/#maemo wirelessdreamer (~dreamer@63.209.137.11)
14:46.13achipawhich has that and a few 'developer confusing' options
14:46.29MohammadAGthat?
14:46.30VenemoZogG, MohammadAG: I do not expect any more support for MeeGo than what I get on IRC for Fedora. which I can get on #meego
14:46.52MohammadAGI didn't mention support
14:46.59achipadeploy wo. dpkg, create deb without device, that sort of stuff
14:47.00pupnik_understand the planet..... http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1181/chalmers_johnson_empire_of_bases
14:47.02MohammadAGMeeGo isn't usable unless you have a second device
14:47.09ZogGVenemo do not compare desctop os and embedded os
14:47.10Venemoachipa: eagerly awaiting it
14:47.12VenemoMohammadAG: yet.
14:47.20MohammadAGindeed
14:47.35VenemoMohammadAG: not much is missing afaics
14:47.52achipaalso, 'undeploy' package, insta-flash device
14:47.54ZogGif meegos Ui would be multitouch based?
14:48.06MohammadAGVenemo, comparing Maemo 5 to MeeGo, a lot is missing
14:48.13ZogGin n900 you even need driver for battery
14:48.15achipa(all stuff that you can do from console, but is annoying)
14:48.31ZogGas well as any hardware bugs support of closed drivers
14:48.31VenemoZogG: it'll support both multitouch and single-touch. and yes, BME is there along with other stuff.
14:48.38MohammadAGon a laptop you need a driver for the battery
14:48.43MohammadAGthat's what ACPI's for
14:48.45Venemonah, this is indeed OT here :)
14:48.58ZogGMohammadAG not really driver but managment
14:49.08Venemoachipa: do you have an ETA on your version? :P
14:49.10MohammadAGbme isn't a driver
14:49.21Venemono it isn't. point is: it's working
14:49.23MohammadAGit's userspace
14:49.31*** join/#maemo sp3000 (~tt@cs78207043.pp.htv.fi)
14:50.11*** join/#maemo Spookje (~ghost@82.74.121.137)
14:51.03ZogGanyway i think support on embedded device is mucgh different
14:51.12ZogGas you have to adopt OS for device
14:51.22DocScrutinizerpoint is, it's not working
14:51.33ZogGon other hand on desctop you just config hardware for OS
14:51.46*** join/#maemo moshee (~moshee@c-24-16-155-210.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
14:51.46*** join/#maemo moshee (~moshee@unaffiliated/moshee)
14:51.46DocScrutinizeryou're just happy to not usually notice that
14:51.50ZogGand hadrware support is not that OS releated but linux releated
14:51.55RST38hyawns
14:52.05ZogGslaps RST38h
14:52.15RST38hAnother terrorist act, an airport, 31+130
14:52.39VenemoDocScrutinizer: hm, Sts said it's working.
14:52.59ZogGRST38h second one?
14:53.01ZogGWTF
14:53.10ZogGone side it's bad
14:53.26achipaVenemo: depends on the release cycle of the 'real' sdk, as I obviously can't publish stuff that is not public yet
14:53.38DocScrutinizerhe's also just happy to not usually notice that
14:53.47ZogGon other as it happens all over the world no world would support extreme organizations and countries
14:53.59Venemoachipa: I thought it is being developed openly
14:54.12VenemoDocScrutinizer: mhm :(
14:54.30RST38hZogG: First one today
14:54.31achipaVenemo: qtcreator is, but I touch on stuff that is on the danger list (as said, flasher, the rootstrap, etc)
14:55.01ZogGRST38h i heard about first one 20 people got hurt as far as news sites saying
14:55.05DocScrutinizerVenemo: mhm!
14:55.42DocScrutinizerbme has severe bugs, that just don't blow up into your face immediately and every day
14:56.41RST38hZogG: It is up to 31+130 now
14:57.22RST38hZogG: + many hundreds more from rectal probing at the airport entrance in the upcoming months.
14:57.38GAN900This is how we let them win.
14:57.46Venemoachipa: I would suffice with the fix for this bug.
14:57.59GAN900It's not about the bombings, it's about the economic damage we do to ourselves afterwards.
14:58.00DocScrutinizerand honestly when stskeeps says "it works" then, well... He doesn't even have the *parameters* to evaluate and verify bme against
14:58.15Venemolol
14:58.32ZogGVenemo i had bug that when i connect device to wall charger and it's empty it stops charging after 3 sec just notifing "charging is stopped"
14:58.48MohammadAGpoints to Stskeeps's uboot-pr13, the source of which contains binaries
14:58.58*** join/#maemo Bash (~Bash@94-193-105-245.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
14:59.07MohammadAGpoints to his uboot-power, a proper package with proper sources
14:59.10ZogGGAN900 no, it's about politics and extremests
14:59.16DocScrutinizerso all anybody can say is "it seems to do roughly what I expected, in usual non-niche conditions"
14:59.28fralshey MohammadAG
14:59.33fralsyou live in israel right?
14:59.36fralsor was that someone else
14:59.37MohammadAGyep
14:59.47ZogGGAN900 if someone doesn't use any rules - the proper way is do the same!
14:59.47fralswhereabouts?
14:59.50MohammadAGthere's ZogG too
14:59.55ZogGMatan
14:59.56MohammadAGJerusalem
15:00.03ZogGi'm Tel-Aviv
15:00.08*** join/#maemo msanchez (~msanchez@44.24.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
15:00.09MohammadAGthough I'm leaving on the 27th to Jordan, holidays
15:00.11ZogGfrals, you comming here?
15:00.14MohammadAGZogG, lucky
15:00.17GAN900ZogG, it's economic warfare at its core.
15:00.22fralsmight be
15:00.34RST38hGAN900: Go tell that to the head of DHS :)
15:00.38MohammadAGcool!
15:00.45MohammadAGsend me an MMS if you do
15:00.52frals^_^
15:00.52DocScrutinizerlol
15:01.03ZogGfrals for how long. my appartment is cold and shitty but i can provide place to stay for a wekk i think with no problem
15:01.07RST38hGAN900: Especially considering that his career depends on "implementing effective measures against terorrist threats to our homeland" :)
15:01.11GAN900RST38h, exactly the problem.
15:01.17lcukRFC 9876: trout_over_mms
15:01.36fralsZogG: thanks but i dunno where im going yet :D
15:01.42GAN900Everytime we add new security measures and cavity search another foreigner, the terrorists win.
15:01.43ZogGGAN900 you are right, when you talk about people behind it, that don't really care about fanatic stuff
15:01.45RST38hlcuk: It will rot at the MMSC, AFAIK =)
15:01.48*** join/#maemo andre900 (~user@217.77.165.53)
15:01.58MohammadAGfrals, keep in mind, it's warmer than Finland :p
15:02.14MohammadAGfrals, what's the timeframe?
15:02.16ZogGfrals i'm in tel-aviv(near actually) as well i may get discount in hotel as my friend work there
15:02.23fralschecking the list of vaccins that i should get before going :p
15:02.36*** join/#maemo fiferboy (~quassel@2001:470:b0ea:1:4687:fcff:fe72:d20a)
15:02.36*** join/#maemo fiferboy (~quassel@Maemo/community/contributor/fiferboy)
15:02.40fralsMohammadAG: soon(tm) ;)
15:03.05ZogGfrals anyway you can count on me if you need help and beer talk if you want =)
15:03.09MohammadAGlmfao
15:03.23ZogGMohammadAG is useless he doesn't drink =)
15:03.34fralsill let you guys know when i know more
15:03.40VenemoMohammadAG: you don't drink?
15:03.48MohammadAGmay I ask about the purpose of the visit? :P
15:03.48fralshes not allowed!
15:03.54MohammadAGI mean, Finland > Israel
15:04.01MohammadAGAt least you guys have snow
15:04.10MohammadAGVenemo, not officially - oops
15:04.13fralsits not for pleasure thats for sure :D
15:04.18VenemoMohammadAG: yes, and you have sunshine which I would pick over snow :P
15:04.31fralsno offense towards israel but i like where i am ;)
15:04.35MohammadAGI'd pick snow over this weather anytime
15:04.40*** join/#maemo HRH_H_Crab (~crab@kowloontong.dim-sum.org)
15:04.49MohammadAGfrals, no offense taken, it sucks anyway
15:04.49VenemoMohammadAG: what's the weather?
15:04.50MohammadAGxP
15:05.03MohammadAGVenemo, I haven't seen rain in quite a while
15:05.11MohammadAGit's 15 or something outside
15:05.16lcukcome to manchester
15:05.24ZogGit's cold in morning and hot at day =(
15:05.25lcukemails you a bucket load of rain
15:05.31Venemomhmm
15:05.35MohammadAGI was in germany in 09 (or was it 08...)
15:05.42ZogGlcuk, i like your accent
15:05.45Venemowell that's still better than the -1°C here
15:05.47MohammadAGit lacked some wifi
15:05.51MohammadAGbut it was awesome
15:05.53DocScrutinizerhahaha
15:05.57merlin1991MohammadAG, germany sucks
15:05.57MohammadAG-1C is awesome
15:06.04DocScrutinizerdonkey balls
15:06.13merlin1991if you wan't to go to a german speaking country austria is the way to go ;)
15:06.14MohammadAGmerlin1991, see? as much as it sucks it beats israel
15:06.15RST38hdoesn't drink either, it is the path of the weak ones =)
15:06.44*** join/#maemo deegee__ (~deegee@cpc2-brom9-2-0-cust485.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com)
15:06.45merlin1991RST38h, it's also friday nights path
15:06.49GAN900seems to only drink at Maemo events.
15:06.49ZogGRST38h you think you are better than me? =)
15:06.59RST38hZogG: Of course! =)
15:07.01GAN900MohammadAG, at least it's not depressing.
15:07.04ZogGdrinks everytime there si beer
15:07.16ZogGRST38h =(
15:07.25RST38hAny place gets depressing after a while, I guess
15:07.43MohammadAGtake tmo as an example...
15:07.46RST38hThat is why we have got terrorist acts! To liven things up!
15:07.47MohammadAGhides
15:07.57MohammadAGGAN900, ha, true that
15:07.59DocScrutinizerRST38h: wait wait! where you're from? and you tel me you dont drink?
15:08.11MohammadAGhe's russian
15:08.13RST38hDoc: That is part of the reason why I do not.
15:08.17MohammadAGand he doesn't believe in Vodka
15:08.24VenemoMohammadAG: hehe
15:08.31DocScrutinizerI thought you get arrested in Russia if you refuse to drink :-P
15:08.51MohammadAGIn soviet russia, drinks refuse you
15:08.58RST38hDoc: Ironically, there is very few things for which you get arrested in Russia
15:08.59DocScrutinizerhehehe
15:10.12ZogGOpenfree has quit (Remote host closed the connection) // no fuiture for opensource
15:10.13DocScrutinizerI guess the fact that DHL doesn't deliver to private addr is somewhat related :-P
15:10.17ZogGthey are cutting us out
15:11.35*** join/#maemo felipec (~felipec@nat/nokia/x-stqnzvhzvsfrnjqr)
15:12.12MohammadAGZogG, the day open source dies is the day freenode gives you a Connection Refused
15:12.16DocScrutinizerRST38h: ooh, now I get it. Of course the only thing you get arrested for in Russia is to have too little or way to much money
15:12.30DocScrutinizertoo much*
15:12.47RST38hDoc: close but not exactly
15:13.06DocScrutinizerway too much has to come hand in hand with badmouthing Putin to get dangerous
15:13.06RST38hDoc: You generally get arrested for NOT SHARING the wealth you have got with intertested parties :)
15:13.28ZogGgonna take a snap
15:13.33RST38hAnd yes, badmouthing the government in certian public spaces has never been healthy
15:13.44jacekowskiRST38h: so you are saying that if i don't share wealth ( like games, music and other copyrighted content ) i will go to prison?
15:14.10RST38hjacekowski: that is not wealth, that is rubbish
15:16.30DocScrutinizerjacekowski: in Russia even 1kg of caviar is considered rubish
15:16.49DocScrutinizerjacekowski: real wealth in Russia is starting at 10^9
15:18.02DocScrutinizerI bet there's a saying in Russia upper class that goes like "if you can survive the money you own getting thrown on you, then you're a poor man"
15:19.08cos^umm.. how do i reset my password on maemo.org?
15:19.24cos^it would be too easy if they had a reset link on the login page
15:19.46DocScrutinizerthey don't?
15:19.51cos^no
15:19.56DocScrutinizero.O
15:20.46DocScrutinizerwhich m.o? tmo, gmo, bmo?
15:21.02*** join/#maemo scoobertron (~tom@93.186.148.121)
15:22.35cos^http://maemo.org/
15:23.19cos^if you write wrong u/p in top right corner fields, it just directs to login page with no reset link
15:23.54DocScrutinizerhttps://garage.maemo.org/account/login.php  -> "forgot your password"
15:24.28MohammadAGhmm
15:24.36ShadowJKroflmao, Nokia Care people are awesome. I asked how to return the device for repair through the seller, when the seller is Nokia (they have like no details on their website for that). The reply was essentially "Yes you can" (my summary) :P
15:24.46ShadowJKgee, I was hoping for an envelope or something
15:24.52MohammadAGalterego, how do I detect that one has switched window
15:25.00MohammadAGi.e I moved to a stacked window
15:25.35DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yeah, nice
15:25.48cos^DocScrutinizer: thanks.. that worked
15:26.15ShadowJKNot that it matters, since I already /paid/ a local Nokia retailer to ship my device to Nokia
15:26.29DocScrutinizereeew
15:27.27DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you should have ultimatively asked Nokia for a RMA :-D
15:28.00*** join/#maemo mw22 (~chatzilla@s529d7e89.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
15:28.50ShadowJKIt's funny, when that retailer was a Nokia Care point / service center (they had L1/L2 afaik), I got no receipt or anything
15:29.03DocScrutinizermanufs can't answer "yes you can" to a RMA request
15:29.16RST38hShadowJK: It is no longer funny, nor is it unusual =(
15:29.22ShadowJKthis time when they're no longer a care point they actually behaved alot more professionally and gave me a receipt
15:29.48RST38hShadowJK: Got Nokia 5228 before NY. Worked for 2 days, then powered down and never came back up.
15:30.53RST38hShadowJK: Fixing it has been fun too, with the Nokia Care authorized dealer not being able to find the order by name (they kept entering First+Last names, refused to search by partila name)
15:31.02RST38hpartial
15:31.25ShadowJKI see alot of people with that 5228 thing, or things that look just like it
15:31.30RST38hOn the other hand, if you need a chip source of N900 styluses or 5800 wristbands, they have got those =)
15:32.30RST38hShadowJK: Coworker's GalaxyS has done a similar thing right out of the box though: it powered up but refused to find the network. So, Nokia is not alone
15:32.47*** join/#maemo Necc (~user@netacc-gpn-5-83-221.pool.telenor.hu)
15:33.16DocScrutinizerwell, obviously situation in China is getting worse, regarding QA
15:33.31ShadowJKLike BBC's tech journalist says in his podcasts, "It's not what gadgets do when they work that sets one manufacturer apart from another, it's what happens when they break"
15:34.09ShadowJKHe was actually referring to how replacing his android device was something like 3 taps to restore his data, which had been automatically backed up in the cloud up until the point first device broke, but whatever :P
15:34.10RST38hDoc: Or they have cut costs a little bit too much
15:34.37GAN900ShadowJK, handing your life over to google is fun.
15:34.47ShadowJKyeah that too :)
15:35.05RST38hBTW, 5800's display has not survived a winter. The repairman said this happens a lot
15:35.08DocScrutinizerbtw, who was it who claimed N900 didn't go down in price? I yesterday found new N900 at Amazon for roughly 1/2 of what I paid
15:35.26ShadowJKIt's going down on Nokia store now too
15:35.55GAN900It's nearly discontinued.
15:36.11DocScrutinizeryeah *SOB*
15:36.12ShadowJKI'm kinda sad I missed Booklet 3g's end of sale. Apparently it was half price for a few days :-(
15:36.45GAN900Oh yeah?
15:36.57nze`is wondering what meego actually gets developed for..
15:37.00GAN900Kinda a nice piece of hardware.
15:37.05GAN900nze`, nothing.
15:37.29GAN900It's all a smokescreen for Nokia's furious efforts to port Android to, and relaunch, the N97.
15:37.32chxWait, who has n900 styluses?
15:37.32nze`GAN900: like, Because They Can :)
15:37.46DocScrutinizerI thought it's called remove680?
15:38.01ShadowJKGAN900, it's memory starved
15:38.06DocScrutinizerchx: "a lot" of shops
15:38.13ShadowJKfor 700 you'd want more than 1gig of ram... :/
15:38.24*** join/#maemo rm_work (~rm_you@24-155-46-198.dyn.grandenetworks.net)
15:38.29chxa lot better than the N810, i see
15:38.35chxgetting a stylus for taht was a major PITA
15:38.37GAN900ShadowJK, not user-upgradable?
15:38.45ShadowJKNo, you need soldering iron
15:39.03GAN900Ah, too bad.
15:40.25*** join/#maemo MrBawb (U2FsdGVkX1@2001:470:b88f:c8f6:21b:fcff:fe58:cebd)
15:41.42alteregodoes a few bug fixes
15:45.05alteregofinally got rid of that annoying bug where the fullscreen button is positioned in the wrong place at startup.
15:46.39lardmanis curious about the Nokia DAB headphones with a USB plug
15:47.52*** join/#maemo philipl (~mrkiasu@c-98-234-156-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
15:49.32pupnik_"if you don't know how to do what you want to do, then you don't know what you want to do"
15:50.24crashanddielol, rapidshare claims that SSL uses so much more CPU power, that they have to bill you 2x the bandwidth usage for a given file.
15:51.10chxdidnt a Google engineer blogged that SSL no more eats CPU , these days?
15:51.14chxalmost
15:51.19crashanddiehe did
15:51.49*** join/#maemo Tsuyo (~Tsuyo@dslb-084-061-226-118.pools.arcor-ip.net)
15:52.56crashanddieWe're currently switching from SIP to SIPS on the server, all HTTP to HTTPS, and PKI encryption for our in-house protocol, and we're seeing a .4% increase of CPU load due to SIPS, 1.2% increase due to HTTPS, and 4% increase due to PKI-signing our own protocol.
15:54.53ShadowJKI suspect this is just a sign that everything else has grown less efficient ;D
15:56.51crashanddieor simply that CPUs have reached cruising speeds that make SSL trivial?
15:57.36ShadowJKhm, you have a point there sort of. SSL all fits in cache, but massively dynamic websites don't.
15:57.44ShadowJKThey probably don't fit in ram these days
15:58.17crashanddieSSL fits in cache? What do you mean by that?
15:59.16SpeedEvilThe SSL algorithm
15:59.16marmoutewidth CPU word, SIMD, and higher level micro instruction help too
15:59.50DocScrutinizero.O 4% for SIPS ? WTF!
15:59.51ShadowJKI mean that php/java/ruby/whatever + mysqldb is much bigger than a CPU's cache, so to actually generate the webpage takes huge amounts of time, whereas passing the tiny result through SSL fits inside CPU cache?
16:00.38DocScrutinizerwhat are you doing over SIPS? share files?
16:01.12*** join/#maemo millenomi (~millenomi@93.48.156.240)
16:02.19marmouteDocScrutinizer: 0.4%
16:02.33*** join/#maemo BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm)
16:02.49DocScrutinizerI'd guess that the average SIP VoIP call has 0.1% SIP(S) and 99.9% RTP
16:03.09DocScrutinizerooh
16:03.37DocScrutinizer~trout crashanddie
16:03.37infobotACTION slaps crashanddie around a bit with a large trout!
16:03.41*** join/#maemo sp3000 (~tt@cs78207043.pp.htv.fi)
16:04.22crashanddieDocScrutinizer, definitely
16:04.39crashanddieDocScrutinizer, though, we have servers that handle pure SIP, and lay off the RTP/conferencing to other servers
16:04.54DocScrutinizerfair enough
16:04.54*** join/#maemo perolsen (~perolsen@ti0017a380-0787.bb.online.no)
16:05.11MohammadAGI never asked
16:05.13crashanddieand those servers handle amounts such as 8-20k connections simultaneously, to give an idea of the accuracy of the .4%
16:05.18*** join/#maemo strcpy (~Hamid@unaffiliated/strcpy)
16:05.18DocScrutinizerwasn't thinking server, sorry
16:05.24MohammadAGis the SIP company you work for for consumers?
16:05.31crashanddieMohammadAG, no, businesses only
16:05.40MohammadAGah
16:05.43*** join/#maemo fcrochik (~communi@cpe-174-097-248-002.nc.res.rr.com)
16:06.02crashanddiewell, we'd do a consumer if you need 2000 people calling you on the same phone line :P
16:06.56MohammadAGyou do consumers?
16:06.57alteregoGod, my gf is gonna be mad, lost an ebay bid.
16:06.58MohammadAGgiggles
16:07.04DocScrutinizerheh, so you at very least could get me my lifetime free vanity number ;-D
16:08.29DocScrutinizer00700-DocScrutinizer
16:08.43crashanddiecackles as he sees the overclocking fatality :D
16:09.32crashanddieI'm just a dev, I don't control actual production config
16:09.42DocScrutinizerthe 'sad' thing is Nokia will repair it
16:12.38DocScrutinizercrashanddie: so maybe we will see instructions of OC gurus eventually how to kill the device 2 weeks prior to warranty expire date, to get a fresh one :-o
16:13.10DocScrutinizermaybe even a MyNewN900 app
16:14.10alteregoHahah
16:14.36DocScrutinizerfsckng OC idiots
16:16.05DocScrutinizerwell, better they kill their OC'd devices with MyNewN900 than to sell them to me. I feel no sorry for Nokia, as they never bothered to shout "NO OC!!" in 280pt
16:16.46*** join/#maemo tchan (~tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan)
16:16.53ShadowJKdidn't one of them do that at a maemo summit?
16:17.05alteregoThere were a few Nokia guys saying OC'ing is bad.
16:17.09ShadowJKDunno how big 72pt becomes once you use a projector to put it on a whiteboard :P
16:17.10alteregoiirc
16:17.13DocScrutinizerhe not shouted, he gave an advice for devels
16:17.20alteregoHeh
16:17.24alteregoYeah, suppose you're right.
16:17.42alteregoThere should just be a death switch inside the N900 that kills the device if OC'd.
16:17.45lardmanYes, Igor quite clearly said to not leave the device at its top clock speed
16:17.48alteregoUsers would pay attention to that.
16:18.15*** join/#maemo mitsutaka (~mitsutaka@p1227-ipbf3907marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
16:20.41DocScrutinizeralterego: When I was consulting Nokia on that project, I always recommended they not only silently collect serial # of OC'd devices via HAM and repo-server plugin, but also make HAM pop up that 72pt "YOU OC'd, WARRANTY VOID" notifier. No idea why they scratched that
16:21.01alteregoHeh
16:21.35alteregoToo much effort obviously ..
16:22.01alteregoWould they have paid the dev that implemented it more than the (currently 1 "confirmed") device that is being replaced.
16:22.11*** join/#maemo bigbrovar (~user@83.229.6.19)
16:22.22DocScrutinizernah, the OC detection is implemented in HAM - guess why it's so incredibly lame
16:22.37alteregoWell, there's fapman too.
16:22.49alteregoIt's not hard to get around a ham
16:23.02alteregos/a//
16:23.11alteregonyurgh
16:23.24DocScrutinizercackles
16:24.02DocScrutinizerInever get around a ham, as soon as there's any in vicinity ;-)
16:24.14alterego:)
16:24.31alteregoconsiders waypoint ETA calculation
16:24.37*** join/#maemo blitz00 (~blitz@unaffiliated/blitz00)
16:24.39*** join/#maemo lsm5 (~lsm5@dhcp060-001.openport.buffalo.edu)
16:24.41DocScrutinizerto next ham?
16:24.44alteregoYes
16:24.55DocScrutinizercooool
16:25.45lardmanI hope you're using the great circle path around the first ham
16:25.57lardmanassuming it's a big one
16:25.58alterego:)
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16:28.55alteregotries to remember how to calculate the point of intersection between two lines
16:29.11alteregoI do like geometry.
16:29.31DocScrutinizeralterego: you're not serious, are you?
16:29.41alteregoAbout what?
16:29.57alteregoLiking geometry or trying to remember something?
16:31.40jacekowskialterego: simple
16:31.48DocScrutinizerabout how to calculate x,y for (x0a,y0a)+(xa,xa*gradient-a)=(x0b,y0b)+(xb,xb*gradient-b)
16:31.51alteregoNot even sure it's the best way to do what I'm doing.
16:32.24jacekowskialterego: y=x; y=x/2
16:32.27jacekowskifor example
16:32.32alteregoI've got my viewport (trackview, map, whatever) and I want an edge indicator when the destination waypoint is outside of that viewport.
16:32.40jacekowskihmm
16:32.41jacekowskino
16:32.49jacekowskii don't remember that as well
16:33.38alteregoSo I need the point where the hyp. crosses the top line.
16:34.00alteregoWell, the vector toward the destination waypoint.
16:34.11DocScrutinizer(0,0)+(x,x)=(?,?)+(x,x*0.5)
16:34.12lardmanhow many dimensions is this?
16:34.19lardman2 only?
16:34.26DocScrutinizerjacekowski: your values missing origin of second line
16:34.26alteregoYes
16:34.40alteregolardman: yes, just 2D
16:35.27lardmanso yeah intersection is where the two are equal
16:35.31lardmanbut how are your lines represented
16:35.32lardman?
16:35.42alteregothere are no lines :P
16:35.48alteregoThey're hypothetical lines.
16:35.57alteregoI have the coordinate of the target waypoint.
16:36.05alteregoI have my origin which is the center of the viewport.
16:36.06lardmanmy interest is more for 3D viewport wanting to know whether to render icons if they would be visible
16:36.13alteregoAnd I know the viewports dimensions.
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16:37.13lardmancan't you just subtract the x and y parts of the two coordinates from one another and see if they are > 1/2 the width/height of the viewport?
16:37.50alteregoNo
16:37.52alterego:)
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16:38.19lardmanwhy not?
16:38.36alteregoI need the position to plot my marker at the edge of the viewport.
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16:38.56lardmanoh I see
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16:39.41alteregotbh, I also need to detect if the waypoint is outside of the viewport.
16:39.57alteregoI think I might change things slightly so I'm working with a square viewport.
16:40.22alteregowtf am I talking about, that's not going to work either.
16:43.21alteregoRight, figured it out :)
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16:47.55lardmangenerate equations of line between two points, substitute in the values for the lines at the perimeter, see whether the resultant is larger than the view window?
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16:49.37alteregoNo, that's not very efficient :P
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16:50.19lardmanwell it's not too bad, as the edges only need a single value for each
16:50.52lardmanthough you should check that the distance in x and y directions is > edge distance before doing the intersection check
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16:51.39alteregoYes
16:52.11pillarwhat's the status on SSU repo? is it up yet?
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17:06.07trumeecrashanddie: ping
17:06.12crashanddiepong
17:06.24*** join/#maemo pvanhoof (~pvanhoof@217.22.63.163.static.hosted.by.easyhost.be)
17:06.27trumeecrashanddie: did you ever use N900 with Freeswitch?
17:06.42crashanddiethe one you provided me with?
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17:07.32trumeecrashanddie: dont remember whether you actually tested against my server or not :)
17:07.46crashanddieyeah
17:07.48trumeecrashanddie: but had something to show you
17:08.13*** join/#maemo pH5 (~ph5@e178220186.adsl.alicedsl.de)
17:08.42trumeecrashanddie: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10388#c39
17:08.44povbotBug 10388: Choppy audio in SIP conversation, WLAN power save problem?
17:09.14trumeecrashanddie: listen to the wav file in the comment. N900 skips all the digit prompts of Freeswitch
17:09.48*** join/#maemo sejo (~SeJo@exherbo/developer/sejo)
17:10.41trumeecrashanddie: it is a call to the Voicemail in Freeswitch
17:11.44crashanddieinteresting
17:11.51crashanddiethat seems to be a bug in the RTP handling
17:12.03*** join/#maemo marciom (~marciom@187.59.113.223)
17:12.06crashanddiewe had the same bug in our SIP server
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17:12.36crashanddiewell, I know of a few bug instances where this can happen
17:12.36trumeecrashanddie: you think it is a fault in FS and not an issue with N900?
17:12.54crashanddieA/ server is sending RTP packets with poorly incremented identifiers
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17:13.19trumeecrashanddie: empathy/twinkle/ekiga handle the voicemail fine.
17:13.33crashanddieB/ server is sending RTP packets too quickly after first wav stopped, the N900 receives the RTP too quickly, and drops it
17:13.53crashanddienormally, the client should be able to handle this scenario, as the RTP sequencing is quite clear, but it requires a bit of buffering algorithms
17:14.35trumeecrashanddie: so is there any workaround in the server side or client side?
17:14.57Juozapaswhere n900 writes dns servers ?
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17:15.26crashanddiewell, it's hard to analyse unless you have proper logging about what's happening
17:15.38crashanddiewe should try to know whether the N900 is dropping packets or not
17:16.29trumeecrashanddie: i see. so a tcpdump on N900 is required?
17:16.44crashanddieTCPdump won't help
17:16.50crashanddiewe need to see the internal handling
17:17.46trumeecrashanddie: internal handling of the N900 gstreamer client?
17:17.55crashanddiefor example, yeah
17:18.06trumeecrashanddie: is that something you could look into?
17:18.11crashanddiebasically, add debug information to know if it drops packets, or why it doesn't play them
17:18.22crashanddiewhether it's sequential issues, or timing issues
17:18.38crashanddiethough, it's weird that it's only on those digits
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17:18.55crashanddiecan you check if there is any codec switching during the communication/
17:18.57crashanddie?
17:19.17trumeecrashanddie: i dropped the move from asterisk to freeswitch due to this issue
17:19.18crashanddieIt could be that freeswitch is switching to other encodings for those digits, encodings the N900 can't handle
17:19.49trumeecrashanddie: there was nothing obvious in the freeswitch log.
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17:19.58crashanddieand the source .wav files?
17:20.06crashanddieor .gsm, or whatever you have
17:20.09crashanddieare they all the same?
17:20.19trumeecrashanddie: hmm. let me check that.
17:20.26crashanddieespecially between "Press" and "digit"
17:21.13trumeecrashanddie: 0.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, mono 16000 Hz
17:21.50trumeecrashanddie: vm-press.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, mono 16000 Hz
17:22.06trumeecrashanddie: they look the same
17:22.16crashanddieyup#
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17:22.40trumeecrashanddie: what pbx server are you running at your end?
17:22.47crashanddieour own
17:22.55crashanddieyou could use VoipMonitor or PJSIP to try and see what's what
17:23.14crashanddieVoipMonitor needs to run on the same host as the freeswitch server, PJSIP can be run as any client
17:23.20trumeecrashanddie: i do have a pjsipclient running remotely as well.
17:23.40crashanddieyou don't notice any weird SIP signals flying through?
17:23.44trumeecrashanddie: i use it to test my N900. it basically reads out an ebook
17:24.23trumeecrashanddie: What state of N900 PSM do you use with pbx?
17:24.36crashanddieI don't use my N900 for SIP
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17:24.51OkropNickanyone knows how to make use of notification led for missed calendar events?
17:25.08trumeecrashanddie: crap.
17:26.15crashanddietrumee, but in my own tests, PSM didn't change much to the poor quality of SIP calls
17:26.47trumeecrashanddie: right. so you have experienced poor SIP calls on N900?
17:26.56crashanddieoh yeah, definitely
17:27.12crashanddieit's one of the reasons I'm using a crappy softphone through wine on my laptop rather than the n900
17:27.36trumeecrashanddie: ah. i hope Collabora guys are listening to this.
17:27.45crashanddiepokes lcuk ^
17:28.40nidOlolz, cnn website has a survey on it's homepage asking which android tablet offers more "possibilities on the go"
17:28.50nidOthen lists dell, lg, samsung, apple, and blackberry
17:28.51*** join/#maemo febb (~febb@unaffiliated/febb)
17:29.22crashanddienidO, I'd be willing to bet that people who go to cnn.com think "android" means smartphone.
17:29.36trumeecrashanddie: Olivier Crete (ocrete) didnt succeed in resolving this.
17:30.25trumeecrashanddie: seems, N900 wasnt tested very well with sip.
17:30.39nidOcrashanddie: sadly, seeing apple with 22% of the votes and blackberry with 11%, i'd be inclined to agree
17:30.54nidOespecially as 30% also chose "dont know"
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17:33.54trumeeDocScrutinizer: did you get your dlink router?
17:34.55RST38hWell. Moo.
17:35.11pupnikshalom
17:37.53RST38haleihem.
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17:38.51lcukcrashanddie, trumee - so whats new on the testing front?  have you guys come up with verifiable test cases to show any issue?
17:39.10crashanddieplace a call, lol :D
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17:39.30trumeelcuk: ocrete has taken tcpdumps from my system
17:39.51trumeelcuk: and i uploaded some files on bug 10388 too
17:39.52povbotBug https://bugs.maemo.org/10388 Choppy audio in SIP conversation, WLAN power save problem?
17:40.39RST38hthis bug has been there for a while
17:40.55RST38hmay have something to do with the clock skew,although I amnot an expert
17:41.03trumeelcuk: but what is Collabora doing about that bug, i dont know. Nobody has bothered to let us know
17:41.42trumeeRST38h: yes, that bug has been sitting there for a while.
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17:43.16trumeelcuk, crashanddie, RST38h: people have been randomly trying all permutations of OCing, modifying pulse and what not at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=54039
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17:44.20crashanddieHow often can packets be read/sent with PSM?
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17:45.00trumeecrashanddie: PSM is supposed to turn off when sip call starts?
17:45.19crashanddieif it's any less than 50Hz, then you're going to have bad quality through SIP calls
17:47.48trumeecrashanddie: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10050
17:47.50povbotBug 10050: high latency with SIP client
17:47.58lcuktrumee, what is your talk. username?
17:48.07trumeelcuk: rajil.s
17:48.34lcukok, so on the 15th of this month you posted about having some new files
17:48.42lcukdid you report back to Olivier about them?
17:48.50lcukor on the bug yourself?
17:49.10lcukie, perhaps the onus is now on you since he offered up some components to try
17:49.28trumeelcuk: i had those files since last october
17:49.50trumeelcuk: and i have been regularly hanging out in #farsight
17:50.12lcuk.nod.
17:50.34trumeelcuk: last discussion i had with ocrete was two weeks ago
17:51.11lcukaccording to the bug, last comment was december
17:51.34trumeelcuk: yes, i posted that last comment
17:51.58trumeelcuk: but nobody from Nokia (Mikhail) or Collabora has updated that bug report
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17:52.39trumeelcuk:  i dont know who could help now.
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17:53.18trumeelcuk: The usual answer i get from ocrete (although he has been quite helpful) is that it works in 'empathy' so should work in N900
17:54.00trumeelcuk: he has carried out testing against my own server with N900 and the results have been quite bad
17:56.02trumeelcuk: is there anything you could do to help?
18:00.52nze`i've just booted my n900 into meego 1.1 on my microsd card. how can i access the maemo rootfs?
18:01.21crashanddienze`, #meego
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18:03.00nze`what's the device the rootfs resides on called in maemo?
18:03.07johnsqHi
18:06.45lcuktrumee, I don't see specifically what I can do, I am not on the SIP team.  I do recall from previous conversations that some people happily reported things working well and people on different servers had different experiences
18:06.54MohammadAG/dev/mtd5
18:08.29trumeelcuk: perhaps you can nudge the people in the SIP team. Is there anybody other than ocrete who will be responsible to rectify this bug?
18:09.22lcukbug reports are the best place to contact related maintainers.
18:09.34lcuksince your conversation seems to be out of band
18:09.43lcukits not quite the easiest thing to do
18:10.20trumeelcuk: "since your conversation seems to be out of band" ?
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18:10.44lcuktrumee, you said you contacted him a couple of weeks ago - but I see nothing on the bug about it
18:10.59lcukwhat was said, what was tried etc
18:11.35lcukor was that middle of december
18:12.29trumeelcuk: yes
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18:14.34trumeelcuk: do you think it will be a good idea to post those binaries on the bugzilla?
18:15.10lcuktrumee, I don't know what they are for, so no.
18:15.41lcuki have to go anyway, raise it on the bug report where all the related parties see it.
18:16.02trumeelcuk: raise what?
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18:21.05trumeecrashanddie: dead end!
18:21.59*** join/#maemo bergie (~bergie@dsl-hkibrasgw2-fef3de00-234.dhcp.inet.fi)
18:22.51*** join/#maemo MadViking (~user@dsl-roibrasgw1-ff96c100-143.dhcp.inet.fi)
18:23.15MohammadAGlooks for a lyrics C++ API
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18:33.01MikaTMohammadAG: I tried to find a lyrics library once too, and found nothing for C at the time. I needed something for N810.
18:34.02MikaTMohammadAG: So I made this: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/liblyrics/ but it does not work anymore and not maintained, unfortunately.
18:34.26MohammadAGhmm
18:35.41MikaTI was planning things for N900, but TuneWiki applet was good enough for me, so liblyrics was kind of left behind.
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18:38.08GAN900Eldar thread on Talk is gold.
18:40.38alteregoHave you weighed in yet?
18:40.43alteregoI'm staying well away from that one :D
18:40.51GAN900alterego, not worth it
18:40.57alterego:)
18:40.59GAN900I will when a thread is mostly rational
18:41.10alteregoOn tmo? :)
18:41.13*** join/#maemo wirelessdreamer (~dreamer@63.209.137.11)
18:41.13GAN900But when it's filled with insanity, well.
18:41.18GAN900Yeah
18:41.31MohammadAG= NEVAR
18:41.47MohammadAGdamn, forgot the !!!11!
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19:03.15*** join/#maemo Pauly (ad433165@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.67.49.101)
19:03.36Paulyhi
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19:10.00Paulyhello
19:12.02*** join/#maemo TheJ (~user@a91-155-149-78.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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19:17.43SiceloPauly: hi
19:17.56Paulyhey
19:18.27Paulynokia sans font is awesome looking
19:19.15SiceloPauly: I agree :)
19:21.45Paulyi deleted most of other fonts in the /usr/share/fonts dir and now all the text in micro b is nokia sans!
19:27.32SiceloPauly: what happens if you open pages with accented characters and other special unicode characters?
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19:29.13MohammadAGshit happens
19:30.20Paulyidk
19:30.28Sicelo:P
19:30.35Paulyits okay this looks to pretty
19:30.49Paulyany test page
19:30.50Pauly?
19:31.55mecepost screenshot
19:33.34Paulywhat page should i take screenshot of?
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19:38.04SiceloPauly: I think mece meant screenshot of any page you have. As for me, atm I can't think of any page for you to test
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19:38.42Paulyhttp://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2887/screenshot2011012414354.png
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19:39.59keriothe fuck is that
19:40.28Siceloit is truly nice Pauly :)
19:40.39kerioare you really using a web client for irc on your n900? D:
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19:41.03RST38h"...At his peak in 1990, the toad controlled more than $10bn in financial instruments, making its owner the worlds largest individual stock investor..."
19:41.27meceRST38h, good to know...
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19:43.43MohammadAGhmm
19:44.05MohammadAGdid anyone ever find a way to unchoke the device when a call comes in?
19:45.47TheJi OC:d.. helped me.
19:46.36TheJatleast the choke is less than before
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19:49.50Paulyhi
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19:50.16Paulyhi
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19:56.25DocScrutinizerRST38h: all glory to the hypnotoad
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20:00.36RST38hDoc: yes, it was surely getting around in the booming Japan
20:00.40pupniki have a good good toad app
20:00.45pupnikalmost working
20:01.00RST38hpupnik: will trade for 3 brain slugs, slightly used.
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20:01.02DocScrutinizerr33b.net
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20:03.08pupnikunfortunately bad loop in the sample playback
20:03.23pupnikthat's really a sound that calls for a soft-synth
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20:03.52pupnikhola florian ... did you work on fbmenu?
20:04.58florianre
20:05.02florianhi pupnik
20:05.08florianpupnik: no
20:05.22pupnikah ok
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20:07.14MohammadAGhmm, out of popcorn
20:07.24MohammadAGgets doritos and reads N9/Eldar thread
20:08.00pupnika slightly improved N900 would be just fine, really
20:10.01piggzMohammadAG: mmmmm, doritos, preferably with metled cheese and guacamole
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20:15.26MohammadAGoh nice, another thread
20:15.47*** join/#maemo Pauly_ (ad433165@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.67.49.101)
20:16.43MohammadAGwhy don't they take it all to meego.com
20:16.43MohammadAGit's the right place for such things
20:19.05pupniki should send the homestar runner guys a real 486 laptop
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20:22.24Pauly_grr
20:22.44Pauly_hey why is there so many people in this channel
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20:23.16Pauly_but not many is chatting
20:23.45eichihello! are there problems, trying some themes? i dont wont to break desktop only for trying some themes. otherwise i will use the default one
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20:28.25MohammadAGchem|st, any chance we can get this closed http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=68880 ?
20:28.38MohammadAGor merged with the other BS
20:29.13pupnikeichi: do a websearhc for the theme on talk.maemo.org to see if it causes problems
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20:30.30eichipupnik: the D-theme themes looks stable on first look
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20:52.38Pauly_mohammadag: microb isnt as fast as it should be i think it cause of my router any tips for getting fast connection
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20:55.07ToJa92-ubuntuhey
20:55.39ToJa92-ubuntudoes anyone know if mobile hotspot starts a DHCP server?
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20:57.42benno2Hi, any idea whether this func works correctly:  osso_hw_set_event_cb(m_ossocontext, &hw_state, onHwEvent, &myvar);    basically I would like to read: hw_state->system_inactivity_ind  to see if the app got suspended (or display went off) but it gets called only at app startup ( with the field set to 0), after that even after the display goes off, the function does not get called. any idea ? N900 PR1.3
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21:05.07ToJa92-ubuntunvm, apparently it has one
21:08.45MrBawbToJa92-ubuntu: it uses dnsmasq's built-in dhcp server
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21:11.24ToJa92-ubuntuok. is there any way to view incoming requests to it? (or wlan in general)
21:12.00MrBawbToJa92-ubuntu: there's always tcpdump
21:13.32GAN900Teehee http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_meego_tablet_image_and_specs_surface_we_hold_our_breath-news-2248.php
21:13.36MrBawbyou could also start dnsmasq by hand and use  --no-daemon --log-dhcp + the other options
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21:15.45pupnikhas anyone in the FOSS community done anything for samsung's bada?
21:15.51pupnikor with..
21:16.14ToJa92-ubuntuMrBawb: thanks
21:17.29RST38h"It is estimated that the Mongol leader's invasions unintentionally scrubbed almost 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere."
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21:17.45RST38hpupnik: See? It is good for the environment!
21:18.51pupnikhah
21:19.09derfExterminating humans usually is.
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21:19.52pupniknow if someone could prove that CO2 were bad for the environment...  but that's another topic
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21:24.22GAN900Scale, scale, scale
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21:28.24pupnik"The [Tandy] Model Is radiated so much RFI that many games were designed so that an AM radio next to the computer could be used to provide sounds"  baaahahahah
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21:29.19nox-haha
21:32.58RST38hpupnik: pretty usual for that time
21:33.52pupniknice tandy model 4 on ebay right now
21:34.21lcukwhat machine did Linus use to build/test linux on initially?
21:34.39lcukand does it still happily work on it?
21:35.00kerioi doubt it
21:35.10kerioprobably linux 2.6 is bigger than that computer's HD
21:35.15keriolet alone the ram
21:35.18OkropNickdoes someone know application that allows to put all applications shortcuts to some kind of categories in N900?
21:35.28kasansweatcatorise, but I've never used it
21:36.41MrBawblcuk: elks might work on it
21:36.55lcukon what?
21:37.03MrBawblcuk: Linus's first machine
21:37.11lcukyes, what was it?
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21:37.19kasansweatHas anyone gotten AnyRemote or Irreco, etc. working for a simple WLAN remote, eg for a media box? (I.e., some big arrow key and enter and maybe volume buttons controlling a pc that one has SSHed or VNCed or even telnetted to?)
21:37.31MrBawblcuk: had to be somewhere in the 286 range, I don't actually know
21:38.07MrBawboh, 386
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21:39.49OkropNickkasansweat: thank you for hint
21:41.00MrBawbkasansweat: you're looking to use Irreco with wlan?
21:41.36kasansweatSure, or whichever one works? I saw that qtirreco was IR only? Not sure about Irreco or other alternatives
21:42.07MrBawbkasansweat: There's bluemaemo, that pretends to be a bluetooth keyboard
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21:43.15MrBawbI don't know of anything that uses VNC or synergy and presents a remote-control interface
21:43.31kasansweatso bluemaemo does do "buttons on the screen?"
21:43.46MrBawbit has some pre-made profiles
21:44.01kasansweatbut it must be bluetooth?
21:44.04MrBawbyeah
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21:44.51chem|stpong
21:44.57kasansweatseems silly to limit it to just that, but hey, beggars can't be choosers (unless they're coders)
21:45.21MrBawbyeah, it should be possible to do what you want.  It's just, nobody's written it that I know of
21:45.29chem|stMohammadAG: what is the second thread
21:45.33lcukkasansweat, bluemaemo is bluetooth HID wrapper
21:45.42lcukmaking it not do bluetooth is kinda feature creep :P
21:45.45kasansweathehe yeah -- I thought AnyRemote might have been it too -- but I think it takes some fudging
21:46.02MohammadAGchem|st, nevermind, it already grew to a big thread
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21:46.21chem|stah ok
21:46.25kasansweatMaking it do WLAN seems painfully obvious -- the N900 is WLAN enabled, and the other PC is likely to be as well
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21:51.55alteregobluetooth hid is a good standard to work on, there's no tcp/ip hid spec afaik :)
21:52.18MrBawbalterego: there's always http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/
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21:53.02alteregoWell, at least hid is built into most things by default :P
21:53.08MrBawbyup
21:53.38alteregoIt's a pity the xbox doesn't have bluetooth
21:53.43alteregostupid rf crap
21:53.53alteregoOr ir ..
21:54.34alteregoBut it means I can't use the N900 as a bluetooth hid keyboard for the xbox, like their messenger pad thing
21:54.50alteregoWhich is something I'd really like
21:57.26MohammadAGalterego, it's a pity the PS3 doesn't have IR :p
21:58.26alteregoThe PS3 has good bluetooth hid support though
21:58.30MohammadAGoh yay, some arabic news channel started a wikileaks of its own
21:58.57alteregoIf I had a PS3 I'd write a ps3-media-remote and keyboard app
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21:59.13MohammadAGsends alterego his PS3
21:59.17MohammadAGI trust it'll be back
21:59.19alterego:D
21:59.32alteregoYou might get a controller back :P
21:59.47MohammadAGhey javispedro
22:00.28MohammadAGI won't send a controller
22:00.46alteregoHah,
22:00.55alteregoI'll need to code to get it working then :P
22:01.32javispedromorning
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22:03.40OkropNickdoes someone know where can I change CPU speed limits in N900? I don't want to overclock, I'd rather to underclock during idle time
22:05.27nox-isnt that already what it does?
22:05.40ieatlintyes, it does underclock as much as possible when idle
22:05.43nidOthe device already does exactly that
22:05.59derfIt also works just like normal Linux.
22:06.02derfSee /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/
22:06.02OkropNickyes, but I want limits 125 ~ 600 MHz rather than 250 ~ 600 MHz
22:06.10MohammadAG125 is highly unstable
22:06.14nidOyou need the power kernel then
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22:06.14MohammadAGreduces battery life and such
22:06.21nidOand 125 will almost certainly cause problems
22:06.24OkropNickok, so I don't want it...
22:08.04GAN900OkropNick, no you don't. ;)
22:08.20OkropNick:)
22:08.58GAN900OkropNick, reading up on the term "Race to Idle" may be instructive as well.
22:09.15benno2any idea why:  osso_hw_set_event_cb(m_pOssoContext, &hw_state, onHwEvent, &myvar); triggers my callback onHwEvent() only when the app starts ? when the display goes off or the device is inactive for some time the callback is not called. is this a bug in maemo ?
22:09.16alteregoWhat is this obsession with OCing and UCing :)
22:09.31OkropNickGAN900: I'll check it, thx
22:09.34ieatlintpeople want it to be faster or have more battery life
22:09.37GAN900alterego, rice it up, baby.
22:09.44alteregoHeh
22:09.57alteregomore battery: get bigger battery
22:10.05ieatlintthe bigger issue is ram though, or so knowledgeable people here insist
22:10.06alteregobbl
22:10.14GAN900I hear if you put a park bench on the boot it'll go faster.
22:10.41ieatlintGAN900: just use paper mache
22:11.26ieatlintit's what i used, and thanks to the excellent drag created by this horribly large wing on the back of the car, i'm not only even more of a douche, but i've reduced my fuel efficiency
22:11.28ieatlintit's awesome
22:12.28GAN900Yes, but now you can't burn rubber in third.
22:12.29GAN900Lame.
22:12.36MohammadAGalterego, remind me which bigger battery works well with the N900?
22:12.41MohammadAGI got my 4th battery today
22:12.47ieatlinti drive a honda civic, it took a lot of effort to burn rubber in third anyway
22:13.17GAN900Hehe
22:13.22GAN900I know the feeling.
22:14.14GAN900Friend of mine has an E36 M3 he tuned up. Keeps the spoiler off because he can't burn rubber in 3rd with it on.
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22:15.09ieatlinti drive a low end manual... i got it for ease of repair, and to freak people out on hills
22:15.26ieatlintit accomplishes both
22:15.48javispedrodoesn't drive, he crashes things instead
22:15.56makulkarwhen I run my app which loads my dll on phone i dont get qDebug()s on terminal
22:17.44makulkaris there something on my device i have to enable to get qDebug() on terminal?
22:17.59pupnik< CasperN> whin i connected my usb cup warmer to the panora, it started to sound wierd
22:18.12MohammadAGwants to start driving
22:18.52javispedromakulkar: if your app is a libmeegotouch one, you might need to run it with "-output-level debug" as a command line argument
22:20.26makulkarjavispedro, yes it loads libmeegotouch. does it like creates a debug as file or prints msgs on terminal?
22:20.53mikhas<PROTECTED>
22:21.11mikhasthere is also a -log-console param which you might need to add
22:21.25makulkarmikhas, javispedro, nope, giving "$> appname -output-level debug" still doesnt give anything
22:21.40mikhastry -output-level debug -log-console then
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22:22.25makulkarmikhas,  "$> appname -output-level debug -log-console" still the same
22:22.53makulkarmikhas, running as user btw, does it make any difference?
22:23.01mikhasno, shouldnt
22:33.40makulkarmikhas, looks like qml apps suppress logs. Normal qt app shows qDebugs
22:34.48mikhasyou said you were using libmeegotouch apps
22:38.11MohammadAGalterego, portrait keyboard foss'd :
22:38.19MohammadAG)
22:38.52mikhasmakulkar, have you tried using warnings instead of debug?
22:39.09mikhasmight be some overaggressive error handler filtering ...
22:39.58makulkarmikhas, warnings nope doesnt work
22:40.47mikhasis out of ideas
22:42.56benno2do libosso functions like osso_hw_set_event_cb need that the g_main_loop is running with  g_main_loop_run() ?
22:47.50alteregomakulkar: invoke app with -output-level debug
22:48.31makulkaralterego, did that. No difference
22:48.47makulkar$>appname -output-level debug
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22:48.58makulkaralterego, ^^ is this what you mean?
22:49.23alteregoyes
22:49.28alteregoInteresting
22:49.51alteregoWhat is the app? Is it a Qt executable?
22:50.14makulkaralterego, yes. but its qml based
22:50.28makulkaralterego, when I run normal qt app, without any option, i see logs
22:51.08alteregoOh, so it's an app that loads a qml file?
22:51.19makulkarits called declarative app.. yes
22:51.54alteregoHrm, not sure then, you're probably better off asking in #meego with your odd platform :P
22:52.52makulkaralterego, hehe.. alright
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23:58.22wjtany hints as to why my application's icon isn't being picked up by the launcher? it's in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/ and /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/hildon/; it's spelled correctly in my application's .desktop file; if i change the Icon= line in the .desktop file to 'hermes', that icon is picked up. I've cargo-culted running `gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/hicolor` in postinst (from Hermes): no dice. is there something non-obvious
23:58.55franz_tried restarting? :P
23:59.19wjti tried that before, but let's try it again ;-)
23:59.32Robot101wjt: ask marcoil? :)
23:59.53wjthaha

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