IRC log for #maemo on 20101003

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01:27.14TiagoTiagoWhat is "toggle composite mode" control-shift-N ?
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01:37.35ieatlintalways liked the man pages for true and false: "true - do nothing, successfully" and "false - do nothing, unsuccessfully"
01:38.22TiagoTiagolol
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01:56.17DocScrutinizer: is even better, it doesn't even have a manpage
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04:36.00luke-jr_hmm
04:36.16luke-jr_possible to get Maemo to write video/audio uncompressed?
04:36.20luke-jr_or at least close?
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04:41.34cehtehluke-jr: audio for sure, video likely never
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04:42.44cehtehthe fcam drivers dont include video right? .. and i suspect the video processing is already done in the cameras firmware and the bandwidth of the platform wont allow uncompressed video
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04:53.43luke-jr_cehteh: MJPEG? DV?
04:55.14cehtehits mjpeg isnt it?
04:55.31luke-jr_I thought it was MPEG-4
04:55.36cehtehi dont know any mobile camera which does DV
04:56.06luke-jr_DV format, not physicla DV :P
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04:56.32luke-jr_N900 has 148 extra pixels to the width than my DV camcorder
04:56.34cehtehah it is mpeg4
04:56.39luke-jr_and the latter has stuck pixels
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06:40.02jukI can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first
06:40.19jukwhat did I do?
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06:41.34jukI can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first
06:41.37jukwhat did I do?
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06:49.49juk_Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other S
06:50.04juk_cratchbox sessions first
06:51.07juk_MohammadAG51: Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first
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06:52.55juk_And non-ascii chars inside scratchbox not displaying, I can't input them either
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06:56.34juk_!ops
06:56.39juk_Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first
06:56.51juk_And non-ascii chars inside scratchbox not displaying, I can't input them either
06:58.13juk_hopeless
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07:06.09MaSlaffHello! Here speak Russian?
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07:09.23MaSlaffHere is who speaks Russian? I do not speak English!
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07:11.14MaSlaffРусские! Ёба! Вы где?
07:11.17haltdefno
07:11.34haltdefyour english seems fine to me
07:15.31MaSlaffI want to ask about the smb protocol to n900.
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07:16.19MaSlaffPort TinySmb support server only
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07:17.59MaSlaffI want full support samba on n900. Or other local-net protocol/
07:19.57MaSlaffIs this possible?
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07:21.04MaSlaffhaltdef, hey!
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07:21.34johnxit would be possible to package samba, but no one has done it yet I think
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07:24.25MaSlaffBut there are able to compile from source? And do not wait for release ported version.
07:25.01johnxyes. you could compile samba from source if you setup the maemo sdk
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07:29.36MaSlaffAnd there is not any problems with this setup, without special porting in maemo 5?
07:36.19MaSlaffWhat is the porting of any software in maemo5? Porting GUI and compilation Deb package for maemo? And only?
07:40.04MaSlaffOr need to edit the source?
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07:49.17johnxMaSlaff, I don't know if it the source will need to be modified. It might. It might not.
07:49.35johnxthe only way to know is to try.
07:53.15MaSlaffOk, thanks! I will try.
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08:32.38JaffaMorning, all
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09:00.10Juozapashi why in n900 if sms just received and i press on/off button it doesnt show notification icon at the bottom of the clock ?
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09:21.28timeless_pidgingrumbles
09:21.49timeless_pidginThe wifi here has a "you can't spell" dns feature enabled
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09:29.55keriotimeless_pidgin: lrn2level3/gdns
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09:37.36Jaffa's Maemo Development of the day is done: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2010/10/03/here_and_now_what_s_on_near_you_now
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09:41.57timeless_pidginKerio : ever tried that w/ an n900?
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09:42.19keriohmm... i did not?
09:42.20timeless_pidginEspecially when dealing w/ lots of random cellular providers. Plus one vpn
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09:43.52dRbiGhmm anyone knows what scripts n900's ash reads on start?
09:43.55dRbiG.profile on login
09:44.09dRbiGand what will it read as an rc file? .ashrc? .shrc?
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09:48.45dRbiGnvm, got it ;)
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09:49.17sivangmorning all
09:49.20Jaffa10 pages in to "unread fora of interest" on tmo and nothing of interest yet.
09:49.35sivang~tmo
09:49.35infobotmethinks tmo is http://talk.maemo.org, or too much off-topic
09:50.37sivangI found out the missing 3G internet connection- it somehow switched names with the MMS connection and the "3G Internet" vanished when I removed fMMS
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09:51.16sivangstill that priority for it is low, which I would fix using gconftool-2 so it will appear first when choosing network connectio and no other better wifis are around
09:51.35sivangI think this is a general bug with the lists or gconf storage,
09:51.40sivangthis also happens with contacts after the update
09:51.46sivangvery *odd*
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09:52.32sivangSo I got and SMS, from a number not in the contacts, and number which has a contact entry lost it's contact name, the former took its name and i had to manually change it but it is still switchign the names occassionally
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09:53.29timeless_pidginKeep in mind that breaking .profile will probably mostly brick your device
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09:54.35sivangtimeless_pidgin: I don't think I've touched it, but the backup restoration probably does?
09:56.03sivangtimeless_pidgin: never the less, the pr1.2 although not smooth and perfect made some rather annoying issues better
09:56.23sivangand modest at least seems to be fetching messages quicker and not hang
09:56.30timeless_pidginJaffa: can i install here-and-now from extras?
09:56.42Jaffatimeless_pidgin: -devel atm
09:56.47timeless_pidginSivang : i have to catch a train in less than an hour.
09:57.01sivangtimeless_pidgin: need help with maps and stuff? :)
09:57.14timeless_pidginLast travel day, train takes me to airport. Airport takes me home
09:57.22timeless_pidginKinda anyway
09:57.29Jaffatimeless_pidgin: If it works for anyone else, I'll promote to -testing
09:57.42timeless_pidginTrying to grab it now
09:58.30timeless_pidginDid you use their name?
09:58.37timeless_pidginI'd hope they tm'd the name...
09:58.51timeless_pidginIf so, -1 for name theft :)
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09:59.39Jaffatimeless_pidgin: It's their service ;-p
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09:59.55Corsacseems it works for me
10:00.12Corsacthough it's a bit disapointing to see it's just a web service in the end :)
10:00.13sivangJaffa: you've ported the N8 code or wrote something from scratch for N900?
10:00.17Jaffatimeless_pidgin: TM infringement would be if I was using it for something else ;-)
10:00.27Freak5Are there still new mobiles using maemo? The nokia N900 changed to megoo didn`t it? (is meego as good as maemo, does it have a bash shell?)
10:00.33Corsacand it's not exactly precise, it gives me movies not really near me
10:00.38sivangthis is exactly what Lonely Planet does on N97mini
10:00.46Jaffasivang: I reverse engineered the URL it opens on an N8 and used a dbus call from a shell script to get the same info on Maemo, then another dbus call to open the browser
10:00.47sivangso they have their own service now?
10:01.03Freak5Since it should be possible to compile bash applications, is there any smartphone, which owns an USB-Host?
10:01.16MohammadAGJaffa, worksforme :)
10:01.16JaffaFreak5: The N8 can do USB host.
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10:01.22MohammadAGOTG*
10:01.29JaffaTrue
10:01.31timeless_pidginJaffa : like Youtube and Gmail
10:01.33sivangJaffa: reverese engineered the URL? :)
10:01.43sivangJaffa: is the N8 released already?
10:01.46MohammadAGthe N900 can do USB host mode, kinda iffy at the moment
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10:02.51Jaffasivang: http://ics.svc.ovi.com/ics/app?page=livestream/herenow&service=page&mcc=234&mnc=15&cmcc=234&cmnc=15&cid=37032&bear=&lac=177&language=1&width=800&height=480&tz=p0100&vejr=HN_S60_2.0 for example.
10:03.22sivangJaffa: thanks, location stuff is interesting.
10:03.30timeless_pidginJaffa : +1 for sticking it in the location and navigation category
10:03.35Jaffatimeless_pidgin:  :-)
10:03.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
10:03.50timeless_pidginBut you seem to have recycled a browser window -10 f9r that
10:03.57timeless_pidginPlease get your own window
10:04.09sivangtimeless_pidgin: it helps on the N900 :)
10:04.32MohammadAGJaffa, push it into -testing, it has my vote :)
10:04.34sivangJaffa: OVI has so many faces...
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10:05.17sivanghuh? :) http://ics.svc.ovi.com/ics/app?page=travel31/LonelyPoiOverview&service=page&language=1&entryPoint=5&geox=-1.275&geoy=52.315&language=1&countrycode=GB&metric=1&mcc=234&cmcc=234&tz=p0100
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10:05.39timeless_pidginJaffa : web title (because they're idiots) is "Here and now"
10:05.44timeless_pidginNot title caps
10:06.00Jaffatimeless_pidgin: What's the DBUS call for new window? I couldn't get it reliably when writing it on the train
10:06.26timeless_pidginAsk sp3000
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10:07.20timeless_pidginPlease add a line to long description clarifying that the app just launches nokia's thing
10:07.33timeless_pidginThat satisfies my first objection
10:07.40sivangtimeless_pidgin: "connects to Nokia's web site for the service"
10:08.09sivangJaffa: it's nice, wonder why LP or here and now is not in N900 officially
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10:08.27sivangwhere do I vote? ;)
10:08.31Jaffatimeless_pidgin: I'll add a further clarification
10:09.08Jaffasivang: I'm going to the tip now; will fix browser window reuse, remove extraneous UUID from URL and further disclaim in the description when I get back
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10:10.11sivangJaffa: great, you ahve my vote as well
10:10.45sivangJaffa: would be nice if you could publish your findings for how the URL is constructed :-p
10:11.45Jaffasivang: Read /usr/bin/here-and-now. It's pretty trivial; but I'll do a follow up blog post ;-)
10:12.22Freak5MohammadAG: But when I try to use the USB host of the N900 I need an external power source and an selfbuild adapter, don't I?
10:13.17sivangJaffa: great :)
10:14.29TermanaN900Freak5, you dont need a selfbuilt adapter, you can buy the adapters from ebay
10:15.10Freak5TermanaN900: But I still need external power to activate the mode, don't I?
10:15.25MohammadAGnot for a flash drive
10:15.27Freak5So you mean a non standard adapter, too
10:15.36Freak5??
10:15.39MohammadAGor a 2.4GHz mouse transceiver
10:15.44MohammadAGor a hub with both of those
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10:16.07MohammadAGor a hub with a 2.4GHz t., a keyboard, and a flash drive
10:16.12Freak5The internetsources I found told me that the USB-Host mode is only activated if I get external power, because the N900 doesn't deliver any power
10:17.00MohammadAGit can deliver 200mA @ 5V
10:17.05MohammadAGyou read the wrong sources
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10:17.34Freak5When it can do that what is the problem with its USB-Host again?
10:17.35TiagoTiagohi
10:17.36lcukJaffa, where did you get the here and now icon from?
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10:17.53sivanghmm, is it known that SB should fail with no HALD on ubuntu 10.04.1 ?
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10:18.01lcukthe nokia service is awesome btw
10:18.08lcukthanks for making it accessible
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10:18.20MohammadAGFreak5, read http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=824197&postcount=218
10:18.29Freak5Because if the N900 can use a keyboard or a flashdrive while acting as a host, I am quite confident so use my AVR ISP ^^
10:18.29TiagoTiagojust a quick question, is there any way i can boost the builtin speakers of my N900, other than modifying the hardware?
10:19.25lcukTiagoTiago, bat ears
10:19.33TiagoTiagolol
10:19.41TermanaN900TiagoTiago, modify the limit in the kernel, if it works anything like QSD boards
10:19.41lcukthe sound from the speakers comes out sideways
10:19.56lcukfind a way to cup the sound and deflect it towards your face and ears
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10:20.05lcukie, add a pair of batears to the sides
10:20.10lcukand the ound will be louder
10:20.12lcuki promise
10:20.21TiagoTiagoit's quite dispointing my old N73 sounds louder and better than my expensive N900 :(
10:21.24lcukwhere are the speakers on the n73?
10:21.32MohammadAGtop and bottom
10:21.47MohammadAGbut the N73 had epic speakers
10:22.04MohammadAGimo the best speakers were on the N73, N95, and the 5800
10:22.38TiagoTiagowhy did Nokia not give the N900 similar awesomeness?
10:23.02lcukTiagoTiago, N900 has awesomeness in other areas
10:23.08MohammadAGwell
10:23.12psycho_oreosprobably because N900 was targeted for niche market
10:23.15MohammadAGanyone willing to take one for the team?
10:23.24MohammadAGplay around with CONFIG_CMDLINE="init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6"
10:23.33TiagoTiagothey ran out of money in the budget?
10:23.35MohammadAGyour speakers might implode or such
10:24.12Freak5Are you the MohammadAG mentioned in that post? Sounds quite cool, although I am not as confident anymore that the programmer works, since it doesn't even work when using windows, so why should it work when the Host itself is not rly stable.
10:24.12Freak5Just one last question. Is this bounded to maemo or could I use it when using meego, since that seems to be the new OS on the phone(I should get some information about reinstalling the OS when playing around like that, anyhow...)
10:24.39MohammadAGanyone who wants to have a go, use flasher-3.5 --boot="init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6"
10:24.43Freak5It is a kernel update, so there is no chance for meego, sin'tit?
10:24.54MohammadAGplay with the sound limits or so
10:25.06MohammadAGagain, speakers might be damaged on the HW level
10:25.36TiagoTiagothere isn't  a hardware limitator?
10:25.52MohammadAGFreak5, it's a custom kernel, it's prealpha, it's not a proper release yet so I won't go around checking the differences between both 2.6.28 and 2.6.35
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10:26.21Freak5thx
10:26.28MohammadAGTiagoTiago, not sure, in nitdroid the speakers are louder and have more bass, which might be causing damage to the N900s in the long run
10:26.39MohammadAGFreak5, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=824298
10:27.01kerioMohammadAG: MNZ was working on a good equalizer/filter
10:27.24MohammadAGkerio, was? I thought he's still working on it
10:27.37TiagoTiagodo you know where i can find a comparison of the specs of the speakers on the N900 and the N73?
10:27.48keriogerund
10:27.48kerio
10:27.58TiagoTiagolol
10:28.26keriofucking tenses, how do they work
10:28.34lcukhttp://revdkathy.tumblr.com/post/1234052384/for-you-followers-of-the-ryder-cup
10:28.49lcukgolfing humour :D
10:29.33TiagoTiagoi wish i knew how to speak (and understand) lojban, same for most of the people i chat with
10:30.23kerio[xkcd here]
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10:32.16TiagoTiagoheh
10:35.36RST38hhttp://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2010/10/bscoutswh.jpg
10:36.32TiagoTiagois that for real?
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10:37.54RST38hyes
10:38.19TiagoTiagoWhere can i read about how Nokia came to the decision of cripling the audio n the N900 to help increase it's durability? Or they haven't talked about it openlly?
10:39.21Freak5When playing around with the Software of the N900 I can't screw it in a way that I can't reflash it anymore, can I?
10:39.40sivangFreak5: not if you don't screw the battery, I think
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10:39.49Freak5So I will always be able to turn it of, connect it, pres U and install a new OS...
10:39.49Freak5ok
10:40.09TiagoTiagoI guess you should expect anything positive from such a perverted backwards thinking hypocrit organization
10:40.14Freak5I just never flashed a smartphone and was not sure if there is a Bios/OS-connection somehow.
10:40.33Freak5Like this new Bios Updates for computers which are installable while you are running Vista
10:40.47TiagoTiagoFreak5 you depending on what you do you could physicly brick your device using software
10:41.00psycho_oreosthe BIOS for n900 would be the NOLO
10:41.08Freak5I meant like just breaking the kernel ^^
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10:41.19MohammadAGjust added portrait mode support to modest's code, seems to work ok, except for text in the buttons realigning
10:41.20BCMMMohammadAG: for some reason, I find the CD burner thing hilarious
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10:41.32BCMMgood job :)
10:41.51BCMMi think it's because a CD drive is so much bigger than an n900, or something
10:42.02MohammadAG:D
10:42.21BCMManyway, you have finally obsoleted all laptops, nice
10:43.00MohammadAGgoes to find an i7 to USB converter
10:43.23BCMMMohammadAG: what's an i7 when it isn't a processor?
10:43.30Freak5Sry for my endless questions, but how often does the phone function on your phones actually work when you play around with them? Is that part that stable that it always works or is it a kind of extra on this mini computer which often doesn't?
10:43.41MohammadAGBCMM, a processor :p
10:43.50TiagoTiagofrom what i heard about the "boyscouts of america", kids are no safer with them than with a convent of  psychopath pedophile priests
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10:44.24MohammadAGwtf @ quit message
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10:44.57BCMMone can hope he's using that as an adjective rather than a verb
10:45.22TiagoTiagolol
10:45.43SpeedEvilFreak5: It's worked OK for all my calls.
10:45.56SpeedEvilFreak5: But I have made 2 and recieved 3.
10:46.09SpeedEvilSorry.  Received 4.
10:46.56TiagoTiagoi've had no issues with the phone itself, but somtimes when other thoings are freezing the OS the phone program struggles
10:47.06Freak5^^ Phoning is not the main purpose of your phone?... although... my actual main phone is a 1110i and I don't do more calls ^^
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10:47.58psycho_oreosthe n900 isn't a complete phone, its an internet tablet with phone functionality.. on the phone side of things, the n900 does alright
10:48.24SpeedEvilIn some ways it's unusually good, in its skype and SIP integration.
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10:48.32SpeedEvilBut...
10:48.36TiagoTiagoThe N900 isn't a phone, it got a phone, it's like a car with a carphone
10:48.59SpeedEvilThere are issues where a hardware button would be really nice to accept calls.
10:49.08TiagoTiagoindeed
10:49.09MohammadAGagrees
10:49.14BCMMTiagoTiago: are you from slashdot?
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10:49.39BCMM(infamous for people turning everything into a car analogies)
10:49.50TiagoTiagolol
10:49.57BCMMmaybe more like a laptop with a 3G modem
10:50.02lcukslashdot is infamous for many things
10:50.03BCMMalthough i guess those usually don't make voice calls
10:50.21SpeedEvilIt's like a car with fold-down seats.
10:50.29TiagoTiagothey do if you use Skype
10:50.29SpeedEvilIt handles cargo OK, but it's not a van.
10:50.46BCMMlcuk: yeah, i have a bad feeling that they were the first to popularise a certain website from Christmas Island
10:51.06TiagoTiagolol
10:52.11BCMMSpeedEvil: the hardware button thing bothers me sometimes when the interface is a little unresponsive
10:52.12Jaffalcuk: That's the potentially iffy bit. Artists welcome to draw a replacement.
10:52.24BCMMi still think maemo needs to use nice levels some more
10:52.44BCMMfor example, let the UI for answering a call run with a higher priority
10:52.53lcukjaffa i just use a placeholder icon
10:53.09BCMMi mean, if you are installing a large package and get a call, you can find yourself with your ringtone playing for several seconds before the GUI to answer it appears
10:53.16lcukfor my stuff, if its iffy, best to not have an issue
10:53.28Freak5I am probably in the wrong channel to ask this, but why did nokia actually switch from maemo to meego?
10:53.29TiagoTiagoi wanna stay and chat more, i wanna contribute to the convo, but i am too sleepy :(
10:53.36TiagoTiagocya :(
10:53.53BCMMFreak5: they're combining their efforts with intel
10:53.54lcukBCMM, Christmas island? which suffix is that?
10:53.59Stskeepscx
10:54.07lcukahh
10:54.13BCMMlcuk: i'm trying very hard not to give enough information for people to google it
10:54.17lcukits ok
10:54.20lcuki know now
10:54.26lcukmy mind just went blank
10:54.30lcukthankfully
10:54.37TiagoTiagoif you remember whwre the answr call button should be, somtimes you can answer the call
10:54.48TiagoTiagoanyway, cya
10:55.02Freak5BCMM
10:55.12BCMMFreak5: meego is the merger of moblin (intel's linux distro for tiny things) and maemo
10:55.28Freak5BCMM So would you switch to meego somewhen?
10:55.50Freak5(I think more people are going to use it since some netbooks and tablets are using it, too)
10:56.13Freak5I already checked the wiki artikle about meegos history ^^
10:56.40BCMMFreak5: someone may well correct me on this (or tell us to go to #meego), but i believe that meego will not be officially released on the n900
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10:56.52BCMMhowever, many people plan to use it anyway
10:56.58SpeedEvilOfficially released - no hope.
10:56.59psycho_oreosI think meego may become something of what android is like, instead of having a device with an unique platform, it will be more of a software delivery through a set of devices running the same platform
10:57.03MohammadAGwhat version is modest on the N900?
10:57.06MohammadAG3.2.13-3+0m5?
10:57.06Freak5Oh, thx, I thouhgt it already was
10:57.07SpeedEvilSimply as it would _vastly_ confuse most users
10:57.23SpeedEvilIf your phone changes UI totally - ...
10:58.03BCMMpsycho_oreos: about that: any idea if it's going to have to be RPM-based, or if nokia will be able to make their version use deb?
10:58.17Goliath23hi
10:58.23SpeedEvilIt's a packaging format.
10:58.30psycho_oreosBCMM, so far from what I can see its still going to be all RPM based I'm afraid.. but best to ask Stskeeps
10:58.31SpeedEvilYou don't care unless you are barking mad.
10:58.51Freak5That's another thing, up to now I only used debian based systems ^^
10:58.53psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, it does matter in the availability of tools for example
10:58.57korhojoaseriously? rpm?
10:58.59korhojoano!
10:59.03BCMMSpeedEvil: well you see i was hoping they'd switch to ebuilds...
10:59.05BCMMducks
10:59.08Freak5wiki says rpm
10:59.13_llll_people who react badly to rpm usually have not used an rpm system in the last 10 years
10:59.14psycho_oreosI much like ports :)
10:59.29psycho_oreoswhich is quite untrue
10:59.52MohammadAG_llll_, or they've tried an RPM chroot on their N900, and it was shit slow
11:00.02SpeedEvilpkgtool!
11:00.03_llll_slow in what way?
11:00.05SpeedEvilslackware FTW!
11:00.06MohammadAG5 minutes to install xchat is not acceptable
11:00.06Goliath23I created a homescreen widget with qtcreator. it loaded okay and was displayed. now I changed something (setting sizes and layout) and the widget doesn't appear anymore on any screen. still it vanishes from the list of available widgets in the "add widget" dialog. how could I debug this? does the homscreen application (hildon-desktop?) write a log or so?
11:00.12psycho_oreosmy very first linux distro was none other than rh8.. and then I gave it a few more chances with centos.. slow and lacked tools
11:00.21psycho_oreospacman!
11:00.23Jaffasp3000: ping
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11:00.48_llll_i think there are more important problems for meego than package format
11:01.14BCMMyeah, i mean, will it ship vim by default?
11:01.18psycho_oreospackage format is fairly important especially when maemo has been using deb eversince
11:01.37MohammadAGI'm not switching to MeeGo
11:01.41psycho_oreosso for the package maintainers, devs and what not have to pickup rpm
11:01.45marmouteGoliath23: have you tried the qt channel ?
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11:02.27steinexMohammadAG: why not?
11:02.28_llll_if developers re not competant enough to learn a new format there are bigger problems
11:02.34lcukGoliath23, hrm thats a bug that afaik Venemo got over with his qt app
11:02.48MohammadAGcause of RPM
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11:03.07lcuk(Sticky notes)
11:03.09MohammadAGdpkg -l modest anyone? please? :)
11:03.10psycho_oreossounds more like one here is acting like a boss.. `yeah, jobs are flexible so people must adapt or be made redundant.'
11:03.15lcukGoliath23, perhaps looking at the differences there
11:03.22lcuksince his is a qt app also
11:03.28Goliath23lcuk: ah okay.. Venemo? do you have an email or so?
11:03.37lcukSticky Notes is his package
11:03.38psycho_oreosMohammadAG, 3.2.13-3+0m5
11:03.39BCMMi get a bit of an impression that meego takes more from moblin than from maemo
11:03.41lcukit has all contact info in
11:03.44sivangpsycho_oreos: it's not that hard, actually
11:03.53MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, thanks
11:03.56StskeepsBCMM: well, depends on the perspective
11:04.00sivangpsycho_oreos: when you are customed to packaging system, it is more less revolving around the same thing, just a different syntax
11:04.04Goliath23lcuk: whats his package?
11:04.14StskeepsBCMM: harmattan was going to be rearchitectured anyway to be a lean and mean qt mobile system
11:04.20_llll_it always amuses me how people find packaging so mysterious
11:04.22StskeepsBCMM: so there's a large bunch of that in there
11:04.27psycho_oreossivang, that's what I'm trying to get at.. and the lack of front end tools or part thereof with rpm
11:04.28lcukGoliath23, http://maemo.org/packages/view/sticky-notes/
11:04.31psycho_oreosMohammadAG, nw
11:04.36Goliath23lcuk: ah, thank you
11:04.36lcuksource happily available :)
11:04.44sivangpsycho_oreos: front end tools?
11:04.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:05.11_llll_rigth... the lack of front end tools is going to matter to the user
11:05.12psycho_oreossivang, e.g. where's the equivalent of dpkg-repack? or apt-mirror?
11:05.14_llll_rofl
11:05.30Goliath23lcuk: will contact him later, gotta go now. thanks!
11:05.39lcukGoliath23, try looking first
11:05.45lcukat differences :)
11:05.45BCMMit annoys me that screenshots of OS's always seem to depict the desktop with no applications running
11:05.48Stskeeps-repack is such a hack..
11:05.49Stskeeps:P
11:05.49psycho_oreosI'm not talking on the perspective of simply just the user, I'm talking the lack of front end tools regardless of where you stand
11:05.49BCMMOSs
11:06.14lcukBCMM, well if the OS is showing its baseline then its right to
11:06.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:06.18sivangpsycho_oreos: what's dpkg-repack? I've never used it and I did quite some packaging in Ubuntu
11:06.21lcukbut in meegos case its a bit harder
11:06.24BCMMlcuk: ?
11:06.31psycho_oreosStskeeps, any equivalent? or rpm just lacks them and one has to make it themselves? what about apt-mirror.. yeah a hack but where's the equivalent for rpm?
11:06.36lcukBCMM, if yo uare looking for screenshots of the OS
11:06.41BCMMlcuk: what i meant was that a screenshot of a desktop doesn't tell you anything about the look and feel
11:06.43*** join/#maemo Termana_ (~bradley@123-3-136-180.static.dsl.dodo.com.au)
11:06.50BCMMwhich is all a screenshot is for
11:06.59_llll_becasue the applications are of such a poor standard it would be embarrassing to show them?
11:07.01psycho_oreossivang, packs whatever contained inside an installed deb file along with its infos, etc back into a deb file
11:07.47Freak5From the Windows Developer point of view. Is there something I have to care about when I usually use the STL, boost and maybe wxwidgets or QT will it just compile and work?
11:07.50_llll_sure sounds like a killer app for a phone.  i bet google quake in their boots to know the n900 can do that
11:08.09BCMManyway, since wikipedia is being useless, somebody reassure me that meego for handsets still uses normal x11 windows
11:08.12lcuk_llll_, ?
11:08.15BCMMalso, will it do landscape?
11:08.15Stskeepspsycho_oreos: well, you'll want to look at yum and zypper instead, dpkg and rpm compare, apt and yum compare
11:08.19Stskeeps:P
11:08.21sivangpsycho_oreos: what's the real use case for development and package distribution?
11:08.42_llll_lcuk: dpkg-repack is apparently key to, wrell, i dont even know what
11:08.51dRbiGokey, ported and packaged lftp; works but ssl not tested yet :)
11:08.53psycho_oreosStskeeps, I've looked at some of them but again, hardly any answers my question of lacking front end
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11:09.23Stskeepspsycho_oreos: apt-mirror should be trivial for yum repos, but frankly, why not just rsync?
11:09.26Stskeeps:P
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11:09.54psycho_oreossivang, lets say you installed packages from ovi but because you're on limited bandwidth and you screwed up your setup and you have to reinstall.. would you like to download all the apps you have installed from ovi?
11:10.00psycho_oreosStskeeps, there's no rsync available for meego no?
11:10.02psycho_oreos:)
11:10.11psycho_oreosapart from some wget hack
11:10.23Stskeepspsycho_oreos: sure there is, we mirror to kernel.org too and that has a rsync mirror
11:10.28Stskeepspeople use it to import to their OBS'es
11:10.35SpeedEvilapt-get install rsync
11:10.39SpeedEvilor even grsync
11:10.46SpeedEvilI use rsync daily
11:10.53psycho_oreosStskeeps, but why not rsync directly from meego.com's repo?
11:10.55SpeedEvilTo sync photos and iplayer content
11:10.56*** part/#maemo richieeee72 (~richard@host86-148-164-19.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
11:10.58_llll_does grsync include an rsync binary?
11:11.04SpeedEvilDunno.
11:11.09SpeedEvilI suspect it depends on rsync
11:11.10dRbiGmust have it as a dependency
11:11.11Stskeepspsycho_oreos: for the stupid reason repo.meego.com is really really slow
11:11.18dRbiG(i guess)
11:11.33_llll_i would have thought there'd be a common library
11:11.35psycho_oreosStskeeps, ahh and henceforth rsync isn't available interesting
11:11.43_llll_rather than depending on rsync, but i never looked
11:11.54Stskeepspsycho_oreos: well, i would rather rsync from kernel.org personally :)
11:12.02sivangpsycho_oreos: I use backups, instead, it scares me what could happen from using dpkg-repack
11:12.34psycho_oreosStskeeps, well I wouldn't mind either, but getting it directly from the source is really ideal.. sometimes the mirrors may not be up to date
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11:13.10Stskeepspsycho_oreos: :nod:
11:13.11sivangpsycho_oreos: the reinstalling onto another machine might be a better use case, but stil...
11:13.37Stskeepspsycho_oreos: i think it's just about to not overload repo.meego.com machine insanely lot atm
11:13.43psycho_oreossivang, backups doesn't store the actual programs, rather it stores the list of programs you have installed previously.. but then that would require you to having to use internet to download and install packages.. which effectively would put strain on the example of limited bandwdith
11:13.59psycho_oreosStskeeps, hmm I see
11:14.08DocScrutinizer2( <MohammadAG> 5 minutes to install xchat is not acceptable) Muhaha, tell this to HAM please!
11:14.13sivangpsycho_oreos: I backed up *everything* :)
11:14.22sivangpsycho_oreos: including disk content
11:14.27psycho_oreossivang, you dd?
11:14.37sivangpsycho_oreos: nope, I dar'd
11:14.51MohammadAGDocScrutinizer2, I'm not comparing GUIs, I'm comparing apt to yum
11:14.56psycho_oreossivang, dar'd? or you meant tar'd
11:15.24DocScrutinizer2MohammadAG: then do it in a fair way
11:15.28sivangpsycho_oreos: http://dar.linux.free.fr/
11:15.42MohammadAGDocScrutinizer2, k, less than a minute with apt, more than 5 with rpm
11:15.43DocScrutinizer2MohammadAG: I don't think yum is comparable directly to apt
11:16.44psycho_oreossivang, interesting
11:17.14psycho_oreosyum the last I check heavily depends on python
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11:17.17DocScrutinizerwhy do you think HAM is so much slower than apt, and still it's strongly deprecated to use apt directly for normal installs?
11:17.40MohammadAGHAM is shit
11:17.54sivangHAM is in python?
11:17.55DocScrutinizernonsense
11:18.01MohammadAGno, it's in C
11:18.03MohammadAGbad bad C
11:18.08sivangC/GTK?
11:18.12sivangwell it has to
11:18.14sivangI guess
11:18.14Stskeepszypper's in C or C++
11:18.14Stskeeps:P
11:18.27MohammadAGnever tried that
11:18.28sivangStskeeps: 'or' ? taking the hybrid approach?
11:18.33DocScrutinizerzypper might even be mono
11:18.36MohammadAGhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=832142#post832142 for portrait mode support in modest
11:18.39sivangStskeeps: zypper's faster than yum? (yum is python, granted)
11:18.42Stskeepssivang: yes
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11:19.25JaffaMohammadAG: Is it a disaster?
11:19.31sivangMohammadAG: dude, why do you never use the mailing lists for announcin things? :)
11:19.35JaffaMohammadAG: i.e. "let's rotate the screen, but not do anything to make it usable"?
11:19.46DocScrutinizerbut maybe that's from times where this unbearable red-carpet shit was inside yast/zypper
11:19.48lcukMohammadAG, add the gitorious commit for that please
11:19.55lcukand lets go through the motions once its tested
11:19.58lcukfor a merge request
11:20.10MohammadAGlcuk, I have to figure out how to relayout text when it flips into portrait mode
11:20.16MohammadAGJaffa, it's usable :)
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11:20.19lcuknice stuff though
11:20.29sivangJaffa: that is more or less what happened to MicroB with the portrait mode, you have to swipe the page yourself to make it useable after the turn around.
11:20.45MohammadAGinbox full on tmo, grr
11:21.35DocScrutinizermeh, I want mhd
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11:22.35JaffaMohammadAG: lcuk: BTW, do you know how easy it'd be to make the font used by Modest for rendering (and composing)  different? i.e. Droid Sans Mono and smaller.
11:22.49Jaffafigures it *should* be possible in gtkrc, but has forgotten all his gtkrc-fu
11:22.51lcukjaffa
11:22.55lcukthats theme surely?
11:23.03lcukie make a theme
11:23.07lcukits not down to the app itself?
11:23.31DocScrutinizerI.E. I want a version that's merging http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/repo/pool/free/h/hildon-desktop/hildon-desktop_2.2.142-1_armel.deb with matan's modified hildon desktop, pretty please!
11:23.35Jaffalcuk: I don't want to make all large input areas have a different font and smaller text (well, maybe I do)
11:23.38lcukand changing a default app font would not be wise
11:24.10MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I thought you were referring to host mode LOL
11:24.11BCMMMohammadAG: modest is open-source?
11:24.19Jaffalcuk: Lots of apps give you a chance to change what font you use, with one of them being "Default" or "System"
11:24.19lcukjaffa, I am of the impression that big text areas should start with big fonts
11:24.22JaffaBCMM: Yeah
11:24.29lcukand font size should reduce as you enter more stuff in
11:24.33MohammadAGBCMM, yes, except for Nokia Messaging
11:24.39Jaffalcuk: I don't disagree. However, when composing or viewing an email, I want to be able to see 72 characters on a line
11:24.55lcuk*nod*
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11:25.38lcukbut then again most people couldnt read 72 char lines?
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11:25.48lcukthats 11 pixels/char ish
11:26.22DocScrutinizerlcuk: quite reasonable request. You'll need intitial and minimum fontsize settings for such a textfield
11:26.40JaffaMohammadAG: Is that Modest (w/ portrait) the same one in the SSU?
11:26.54MohammadAGthe SSU one doesn't have portrait mode
11:27.02Jaffalcuk: Anyway, none of the default themes seem to specify it, so it must be coming from somewhere :-/
11:27.03lcukDocScrutinizer, I did it already in onedotzero and really expected it in more places
11:27.05MohammadAGelse, they're the same, with a different version number
11:27.10lcukthe dialer etc
11:27.18JaffaMohammadAG: ta
11:27.19DocScrutinizerlcuk: you see such thing on quite every dialer's number input, starting with Nokia 6210 ~y2000
11:27.23lcukJaffa, you are right, it mightv been hard written
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11:27.33lcukbut droid fonts are not part of default install (are they>)
11:27.43MohammadAGnope, they aren't
11:27.59MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I'll look at mhd when I'm done with my shit for today
11:28.05MohammadAGshouldn't take too long
11:28.07lcukit should pickup the theme font and use it larger/smaller
11:28.11DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: :-D \o/
11:28.22lcuki need nourishment
11:28.22sp3000Jaffa: dbus-send --print-reply /com/nokia/osso_browser --dest=com.nokia.osso_browser com.nokia.osso_browser.open_new_window 'string:http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/html/monkeys.txt'
11:28.40Jaffasp3000: Got it now, ta :-)
11:28.40sp3000Jaffa: http://mxr.moego.org/fremantle/source/tablet-browser-interface/tablet-browser-interface.h#26
11:28.41lcukanyone got any bacon
11:28.47Jaffasp3000: Cool, thanks.
11:29.12Jaffawonders if it's possible to "name" a tablet-browser window and then reuse it (kinda like "target" in HTML)
11:29.18sp3000timeless, mxr.maemo.org search is ** Fatal:
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11:29.46MohammadAGJaffa, probably easier to just use QWebKit
11:29.50sp3000timeless: moego/fremantle works but you have to be a bit circumlocutious getting there ;)
11:30.07DocScrutinizersp3000: already yelled about it
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11:30.43JaffaMohammadAG: Yeah, later version then ;-)
11:30.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:31.01DocScrutinizersp3000: for now you can yank the X from MXR
11:31.07*** join/#maemo apexi200sx (~HickinB@cpc2-salf4-0-0-cust701.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
11:31.16DocScrutinizerwhich actually is a PITA
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11:32.12DocScrutinizersp3000: it's not only the "*** FATAL!" on search, it's also the completely missing hotlinks on all symbols
11:32.32sp3000so identifier index too
11:32.43DocScrutinizeryes
11:33.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:33.30DocScrutinizerfoXR is junk and even less useful than a local plain directory structure
11:33.36sp3000but yeah you can use the one on moego though I dunno if there's some difference
11:33.47DocScrutinizererr
11:33.58DocScrutinizerfor now MXR is...
11:33.59sp3000just can't go to it from the front page since that puts you over to the mxr.maemo one
11:34.18MohammadAGI hate it when hildon-desktop stops rotating properly and requires a restart
11:34.35DocScrutinizerwhat's moego?
11:34.37timeless_pidginJaffa?
11:34.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:34.48timeless_pidginYour thing broke my browser
11:34.50sp3000DocScrutinizer, see link above
11:35.01timeless_pidginI kept getting windows opened to that stupid page
11:35.04Jaffatimeless_pidgin: "Broke your browser"?
11:35.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:35.24timeless_pidginInstead of getting pages i wanted to load from bookmarks - even after the browser crashed
11:35.51sp3000calls it erosion due to overbrowsing
11:36.07Jaffatimeless_pidgin: All it does is use the DBus API (open_new_window in 0.0.3); how could it have that effect/
11:36.13DocScrutinizerthanks for that link
11:36.29*** join/#maemo mitsutaka (~mitsutaka@pw126224034211.30.tss.panda-world.ne.jp)
11:36.50RST38hMohammadAG: Here?
11:36.57DocScrutinizermoego sound like a genuine jeff moe aka jebba project :-D
11:39.23timeless_pidginTiagotiago : speaker limits are done in software and there are iirc cases where people bipassed the limits via direct alsa(?) Pipes which damaged them...
11:40.45DocScrutinizermoos at timeless_pidgin
11:41.19Jaffalcuk: Modest already seems to override the theme: http://mxr.moego.org/fremantle/source/modest/src/maemo/modest-msg-edit-window.c#76 ;-p
11:41.33SpeedEvilIt's depressing there is the unused hardware filtrer.
11:41.48*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:42.28DocScrutinizeris pondering to have a redirect from mxr.maemo.org to mxr.moego.org in his etc/hosts - just to put the 30..40 scrcode pages for hostmode back to purpose
11:42.54DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ??
11:43.16DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: audio? mnz is working on that
11:43.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:44.08timeless_pidginkicks pidgin for randomly launching browser windows
11:45.08SpeedEvilyes, I know.
11:45.12fralsdownloading a *source* package shouldnt get me the binary for a package, surely?
11:45.14lcukJaffa, heh, but at least it still uses a font thats on device
11:45.21fralsie http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/h/here-and-now/here-and-now_0.0.2.tar.gz
11:45.24lcukso try patching the font size down a bit
11:45.27lcukto your liking?
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11:45.46lcukfrals, it doesnt
11:45.56lcukit gave me the source
11:46.06lcukwhat did it give you?
11:46.09fralslcuk: do you see any code in there?
11:46.11Jaffafrals: The source is a Makefile and a shell script
11:46.18*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
11:46.23fralsbah
11:46.26fralscurses windows
11:46.33fralsyeah, my bad :)
11:46.44timeless_pidgincurses someone for supporting launching url / windows in the browser
11:46.49timeless_pidginAwful feature
11:46.56timeless_pidginBloody annoying
11:47.15tobis87MohammadAG: Does it also fix the "Leave messages on server" bug?
11:47.16timeless_pidginkicks the maemo 5 window manager for being braindead
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11:47.18Jaffafrals: I could've named it here-and-now.sh in the source ;-)
11:47.27fralsJaffa: yeah ;)
11:48.13Jaffafrals: 0.0.3 has justbeen imported into te -devel repository and includes some changes requested by timeless_pidgin
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11:49.15lcukfrals, there isnt any code
11:49.18lcukits a dbus script
11:49.24lcuksilly wrapper around webapp
11:49.53JaffaNice perjorative :-p
11:49.55DocScrutinizertimeless_pidgin: MXR on garage isn't a simple project I guess?
11:50.28DocScrutinizertimeless_pidgin: (window manager) what WM??
11:50.31timeless_pidginkicks pidgin
11:52.44sp3000calls the software abuse hotline
11:53.06DocScrutinizer~trout sp3000
11:53.06infobotACTION slaps sp3000 around a bit with a large trout!
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11:54.11lcukJaffa, can yo umake a webapp that opens maemo.org too?
11:54.14lcukyou ^
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11:56.04timeless_pidginkicks pidgin
11:56.15timeless_pidginShould i be  kicking gtkhtml?
11:56.27DocScrutinizerpipes timeless_pidgin | uniq
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11:58.02timeless_pidginSp3000: someone hinted at a problem earlier
11:58.20timeless_pidginI'm flying home this afternoon, i'll deal w/ it tomorrow
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11:59.19timeless_pidginJaffa : dunno (just got to your question )
11:59.43timeless_pidginDocscrutinizer : moego is
12:00.06timeless_pidginDocscrutinizer : meeow
12:00.17DocScrutinizertimeless_pidgin: is... ?
12:00.44DocScrutinizer... a jeff moe project? a garage based project?
12:01.10timeless_pidginDocscrutinizer : garage is two collections of N vcs checkouts
12:01.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
12:01.30timeless_pidginDocscrutinizer : maemo 5 has one, it's hildon-desktop iirc
12:01.32*** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@202-90-54-173.static.linearg.net)
12:01.46DocScrutinizertimeless_pidgin: I'd like to have mxr for h-e-n.maemo.org
12:01.50lcukhildon desktop sits ontop of matchbox wm
12:02.30DocScrutinizer(WM) j/k
12:02.32*** join/#maemo jpinx-eeepc (~johnp@ppp-124-120-15-178.revip2.asianet.co.th)
12:02.52DocScrutinizeror "what? you call THIS a WM?"
12:03.18lcukthen whats a better one
12:04.02DocScrutinizermhd (sorry never was meant to start a serious discussion)
12:04.25*** join/#maemo timeless_pidgin1 (~timeless@82.132.248.118)
12:04.41DocScrutinizerand yes I'm aware mhd is a desktop, not a WM
12:04.46*** join/#maemo merlin1991 (~x@84.114.238.170)
12:05.02timeless_pidgin1Sorry, on train. O2 doesn't service tunnels
12:05.12*** join/#maemo slonopotamus (~slonopota@80.90.124.130)
12:05.38DocScrutinizerso pidgin for sure isn't the IRC client of choice for you, timeless_pidgin1
12:05.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
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12:06.56famicomlo room
12:07.26*** join/#maemo geaaru (~geaaru@host159-231-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
12:07.44famicomi got 2 questions, after a root password is set after installing opensshd server, how can the root access be restored to default settings after uninstall
12:07.49*** join/#maemo geaaru (~geaaru@95.244.231.159)
12:08.13DocScrutinizerman passwd
12:08.21*** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@202-90-54-173.static.linearg.net)
12:08.21famicomDocScrutinizer yeah, that i know
12:08.22*** join/#maemo citygent (citygent@unaffiliated/citygent)
12:08.37famicombut does the n900 even ship with a root password?
12:08.44timeless_pidgin1Docscrutinizer : heh
12:08.47DocScrutinizernot by default
12:08.56timeless_pidgin1Ok, lemme go shopping
12:09.02famicomok, DocScrutinizer so i can just set it to a blank password again correct
12:09.14famicomalso, i have a problem with my wifi, not sure if this is a bug, but after an "easysetup" failed, it's now impossible to get it to attempt to connect to the accespoint again
12:09.19DocScrutinizerto invalid aka locked pw, yes
12:09.39famicomexactly, i'd rather have it locked :)
12:09.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
12:09.51DocScrutinizerit is, by default
12:10.00DocScrutinizerroot access is via sudoers
12:10.18famicomyeah so passwd -l root should fix the issue correct?
12:10.20DocScrutinizerwith NOPASSWD, which I consider a really bad thing
12:10.24*** join/#maemo MohammadAG (~MohammadA@Maemo/community/contributor/MohammadAG)
12:10.28DocScrutinizeryes
12:10.39famicomagreed that no pass isn't a smart thing to do
12:10.45famicomubuntu has spread this whole sudo faggotry
12:10.48lindi-disagrees :)
12:11.00DocScrutinizerfamicom: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
12:11.41DocScrutinizerlindi-: you're free to elaborate
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12:11.57famicomDocScrutinizer thanks man
12:11.57*** join/#maemo aloril (~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi)
12:12.00famicomjust what i needed :)
12:12.02famicomthanks a million
12:12.03timeless_pidgin1sudo predates ubuntu
12:12.09timeless_pidgin1kicks marius
12:12.11DocScrutinizerfamicom: yw
12:12.14famicomi know, but ubuntu abused the fuck out of it :)
12:12.21famicomand made it the defacto standard
12:12.31DocScrutinizerfamicom: ack
12:12.56lindi-famicom: if I get access to your account it is trivial to alias "sudo" to log your password. having a password for sudo is only useful for preventing mistakes and has only mild security benefit
12:13.16famicomexactly
12:13.28DocScrutinizerthe idiocy to allow * for user with user password or even NOPASSWD is clearly a buntkuh BS
12:13.57DocScrutinizerlindi-: nonsense
12:14.00famicomeh, reminds me of "Lindows"
12:14.30timeless_pidgin1Why isn't apt-worker run w/ a nice +5 or something?
12:14.32timeless_pidgin1It kills my device...
12:14.32timeless_pidgin1Xchat critique
12:14.32timeless_pidgin1Xc1. Tabs are stupid
12:14.32timeless_pidgin1Xc2. Network list doesn't do typing to filter
12:14.32timeless_pidgin1Xc3. There doesn't seem to be a maemo menu
12:14.43DocScrutinizereach first level sophistication attack will try to get root access directly, without urging user to enter a password to sudo
12:14.45lindi-famicom: having a password for sudo just gives most people false sense of security in most usage patterns
12:14.53famicomexactly
12:15.34famicomso people will start thinking it's "acceptable" to write applications without putting proper thought into security/permissions
12:15.51*** join/#maemo geaaru_ (~geaaru@95.236.200.24)
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12:15.54famicom"because the user can just sudo"
12:15.57timeless_pidgin1Xc4. Using +/- would be better than "add" and "remove" which have random lame widths, especially localized
12:16.07DocScrutinizerlindi-: fact is with flash vulnerability plus brainfsckd sudoers setup on maemo, the device is open like a win-NT machine
12:16.07famicomwhich doesn't work too fucking well in a server/enterprise environment
12:16.30lindi-famicom: ok, password-less sudo does promote the use for sudo from third party applications. there a password would have a benefit since it would discourage should tactics
12:16.45tobis87MohammadAG: Does your new modest package also fix the "Leave messages on server" bug?
12:16.48lindi-DocScrutinizer: yes
12:16.48keriohmm, i cba to read the backscroll but i saw a notified word so...
12:16.49timeless_pidgin1Xc5. "Auto connect" should either be one word or hyphenated. Otherwise you'd write "automatically" ...
12:16.50kerioBACON!!!
12:17.19kerioyeah, it was lcuk asking for some
12:17.20famicomlindi- unless we teach those ubuntards and whatnot that root is a priviledge, not a right, we'll end up with a UAC nightmare like vista
12:17.35famicomAKA: click yes for, wooohooo spinning cubes
12:17.47*** join/#maemo avs (~avs@a88-113-5-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
12:17.52MohammadAGtobis87, not sure, never experienced the bug with nokia messaging
12:17.53timeless_pidgin1Xc6. Dialog titles are titles (not list headings) and shouldn't end in ":" (Character set:)
12:17.57MohammadAGtobis87, you're free to test it
12:18.01lindi-famicom: I have not used UAC myself but the concept of trusted path is something we should be learnings from
12:18.08MohammadAGadded portrait mode support to control panel
12:18.20famicomlindi- what is your favorite OS
12:18.24lindi-famicom: debian
12:18.30famicom:)
12:18.36keriodebian! woot!
12:18.51*** join/#maemo timeless_xchat (~timeless@82.132.248.118)
12:18.51famicomremembers the good ole days, when sudo was a dirty word
12:18.54timeless_pidgin1Xc7. The scrollbar width seems somewhat random
12:19.26sivangMohammadAG: control panel is open source?
12:19.31MohammadAGyes
12:19.37timeless_pidgin1Debian FreeBSD, Debian Solaris, Debian Hurd, or something else?
12:19.37MohammadAGhildon-control-panel
12:19.38sivangMohammadAG: nice
12:19.41lindi-famicom: currently improving the security is difficult. you need to switch to another virtual console and login as root to do adminstrative work
12:19.42*** join/#maemo slonopotamus (~slonopota@80.90.124.130)
12:19.57MohammadAGI want the source of the contacts app :(
12:20.02lindi-famicom: but that is not very usable :(
12:20.04sivangMohammadAG: right....
12:20.05MohammadAGit works in portrait mode
12:20.23timeless_xchatdebian isn't an operating system...
12:20.23famicomlindi- i'd rather have something that's hard to use
12:20.27famicomyeah yeah yeah
12:20.32lindi-famicom: hmm?
12:20.40famicomGNU/Linux + various other tools
12:20.50famicomfamicom yeah, something hard to use, but knowing that my data is secure
12:20.54MohammadAGhmm
12:20.55famicomi use this phone for work
12:21.03MohammadAGjust rechecked the source for hildon-control-panel
12:21.11MohammadAGit has portrait mode already in it, but commented out
12:21.17MohammadAG<PROTECTED>
12:21.18MohammadAG<PROTECTED>
12:21.19sivangMohammadAG: you mean it adjusts to protrait mode nicely as opposed to the other apps?
12:21.44MohammadAGsivang, yes, use CTRL+SHIFT+R
12:21.45timeless_xchatXc8. "1 ops, 45/" is useless as titles for userlists go
12:21.47MohammadAGit just needs a flag
12:21.47timeless_xchatxc9. that one can "focus" the userlist, but not type to filter it is lame.
12:22.10yaccAnyone got an idea how the touchscreen events are represented and how to make x11vnc convert the desktop mouse into them?
12:22.20timeless_xchatxc10. the channel menu isn't maemo5 friendly, it's maemo4 :(
12:22.38lindi-famicom: my goal is to get something that is easy to use but safer than plain sudo :)
12:22.40sivangtimeless_xchat: what are you reading from ? :)
12:22.47*** join/#maemo sar3th|away (sar3th@unaffiliated/sar3th)
12:22.50timeless_xchat?
12:22.51famicomlindi- hummm, i dont know
12:22.56tobis87MohammadAG: Will do it, do you mind to take a look into mece's changes to the hildon filemanager? http://pastebin.com/R77d7yJQ , it does reboot the n900 if a folder is opened with many files while the cpu is on high load.
12:23.01timeless_xchati'm writing a bug list for xchat
12:23.03famicomall these "mainstream" adoptions of linux have ben pisspoor
12:23.10lindi-famicom: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/darcs/sido/README  is one of the prototypes
12:23.22sivangtimeless_xchat: ah
12:23.30pupnik_yacc: if you want to control n900 with desktop kbd/mouse try 'synergy'
12:23.30sivangMohammadAG: this key combo does nothing for me.
12:23.36lindi-timeless_xchat: my largest problem with xchat was that it doesn't work well when I'm on 70+ channels
12:23.36famicomeeePC, HP 2133, Maemo
12:23.38famicomthey all sucked
12:23.41yaccsynergy?
12:23.42timeless_xchatxc11. the lack of default tap to scroll is mostly annoying
12:23.58lindi-timeless_xchat: I never notice when somebody mentions my nick since the channel list does not fit to screen..
12:23.59*** join/#maemo johnsq (nobody@88.78.broadband14.iol.cz)
12:24.04johnsqHi
12:24.20timeless_xchatxc12. the default theme of "my text" as dark gray on black background is *stupid*
12:24.23MohammadAGsivang, close the keyboard and rotate the phone
12:24.41MohammadAGctrl+shift+r sets portrait mode flag to the top level window
12:24.58yaccpupnik_, well what's the benefit over x11vnc? (I also like to have the screen in a window so the N900 can be connected to the PC under the desk and hidden from view), ...
12:25.01sivangMohammadAG: ah okay, let me check this on the control panel
12:25.12timeless_xchatlindi: i wouldn't bother w/ more than a couple, my battery would die
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12:25.23lindi-timeless_xchat: heh
12:25.28lindi-timeless_xchat: most of them are pretty idle
12:25.29sivangMohammadAG: ohhh rad
12:25.39sivangMohammadAG: cool, now modest is also in protratin mode without any patch
12:25.40MohammadAGsivang, do it in the contacts app
12:25.47*** join/#maemo andrei1089 (~andrei108@81.18.92.10)
12:25.59timeless_xchatxc13. "time stamps" shouldn't be two words...
12:26.00MohammadAGsivang, yes, it gets cleared when you close the app, so not really useful
12:26.01pupnik_yacc: the n900 becomes a little computer next to your real monitor - keep tabs on network activity or chat, or test software on n900
12:26.16sivangMohammadAG: well, can't we make it always set?
12:26.19MohammadAGno
12:26.22sivangMohammadAG: surely this is a mere gconf nuence
12:26.26MohammadAGunless you patch the app
12:26.29MohammadAGno, it's a window flag
12:26.35sivangMohammadAG: X11 ?
12:26.38MohammadAGno
12:26.41MohammadAGhildon-desktop
12:26.45timeless_xchatxc14. tabs really don't work when you have dozens of them with no title padding (preferences !!)
12:26.52sivangMohammadAG: not read from gconf or some env var?
12:27.00MohammadAG...
12:27.05sivangMohammadAG: what's the code to respond to ctrl shift r does?
12:27.14tobis87Anyway, I'm off for the match Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich. And of course Dortmund will win! :-D
12:27.16sivangMohammadAG: e.g. the slot/callback
12:27.16*** part/#maemo tobis87 (~tobiaskar@p5B288103.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
12:27.26MohammadAGnot sure, check hildon-desktop's code
12:27.34timeless_xchatxc15. the alerts panel scrolls *sideways*
12:27.37sivangpokes
12:28.01sivangMohammadAG: also, we need to add a redraw callback to the tilt signal
12:28.03timeless_xchatxc16. "nick names" isn't two words!!
12:28.18sivangMohammadAG: to make app redraw in the new screen setting
12:28.26sivangtimeless_xchat: hehe, btw, I never said loose again
12:28.31sivangtimeless_xchat: or alot for that matter
12:29.03sivanghttp://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
12:29.06sivangFWIW
12:29.10*** join/#maemo crashanddie (~slauwers@Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie)
12:29.11timeless_xchatxc17. they aren't consistent about timestamps fwiw (the logging preferences tab uses both !!)
12:30.29timeless_xchatok, how the *heck* do i get non lame colors in xchat?
12:30.53timeless_xchati'm switching back in 5 minutes unless someone can fix my dark gray on black :(
12:30.58sivangtimeless_xchat: why use xchat?
12:31.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
12:31.32DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: xc17: channel tabs need aliases, and a way to sort
12:31.47timeless_xchatxc18. the context menu placement for usernames in the channel area is bad.
12:32.00DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: xc18: WTF there is no python plugin?
12:32.05*** join/#maemo merlincorey (~merlin@67.220.94.24)
12:32.37timeless_xchatsivang : docscrutinizer told me not to use pidgin
12:32.40yaccNo synergy package for the N900 :(
12:32.48DocScrutinizer:-D
12:32.56sivangtimeless_xchat: heh
12:32.57timeless_xchatkicks docscrutinizer
12:33.06BCMMyacc: yeah, that bothered me too
12:33.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
12:33.42timeless_xchatxc19. scroll buttons in menus are awful
12:33.43DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: lemme push my xchat.conf for you X-P
12:34.01sivangfor the grammatically concious, I strongly recommend that ALOT post
12:34.19sivanganybody knows to explain why MMS is caled WAP Push?
12:34.29sivangerr, not called, but that is the explenation I got somehwere on the web
12:34.30timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : if it doesn't suck...
12:34.51DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: sure it sucks, that's why I use it X-D
12:34.55yaccWell, MMS is a real heap of very aromatic dung, ...
12:35.17yaccI wonder does Maemo manage to keep multiple outbound network connections going at the same time?
12:35.21*** join/#maemo visz (vis@irkki.fi)
12:35.32timeless_xchat?
12:35.33sivangyacc: and you said that since it requires it's own dedicated channel? :)
12:35.41timeless_xchatmaemo tries to avoid multiple networks
12:35.48yaccIf not, then you'll have problems to implement MMS support in a generic way.
12:36.05timeless_xchatyou can have gprs + adhoc
12:36.12yaccsivang, well, sometimes, depends upon the network, but yes many networks have MMS on it's own APN.
12:36.16timeless_xchatand you can have whatever + vpn
12:36.19sivangtimeless_xchat: btw, I created a bug report about tapping the gmail inbox in MicroB I apologize in advance if it is not MicroB's fault :)
12:36.41yaccsivang, worse even without a special APN, you might need to access the network through GPRS instead of the WLAN to access internal IPs of the servers involved.
12:36.46timeless_xchatsivang : doesn't bother me right now :)
12:37.03timeless_xchatmms should just die
12:37.15timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : where's that conf already?
12:37.20sivangtimeless_xchat: yeah, I know :) feel free to toss it back to me for furhter investigation who's fault is it when you see it, I am testing ukeyboard in that regard
12:37.23yaccsivang, but more generally, the big problem is that it's just another copy&modify&define-standard item that the mobile world has been pushing, ...
12:37.41DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: ~user/.xchat2/*
12:37.55yaccsivang, just like mobiles have supported for years their own IM chat protocols (Global Village or how was it called currently), ...
12:38.03sivangyacc: I read the same place and they said it is WAP Push, using SMS and WAP to accomplish its goal
12:38.19sivangyacc: never heard of it, which mobiles were those?
12:38.30sivangyacc: WAP Push confused me
12:38.41yaccsivang, that stupid thing looks so much like xmpp, but slightly modified and binary to make it incompatible with xmpp.
12:38.44timeless_xchatum... ok?
12:38.45timeless_xchatwhere's *your* file, the one you're giving me, the one that will make things suck less
12:38.51*** join/#maemo geaaru (~geaaru@host76-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
12:39.03yaccsivang, well, most Nokia phones had it as "Chat", "IM Chat", and so on.
12:39.49luke-jr_SMS is nothing other than a standard non-standard IM protocol :P
12:40.35*** join/#maemo hannesw (~hannes@80-121-112-171.adsl.highway.telekom.at)
12:40.48*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
12:40.53sivangit is amazing what you can learn and get curious by inspecting the source of an app
12:41.06yaccsivang: http://www.mobjab.com/
12:41.13MohammadAGsigh
12:41.14sivang.oO(fMMS)
12:41.23MohammadAGosso-backup is closed source
12:41.31MohammadAGwhy the fuck do they use osso in the name if it's closed
12:41.46timeless_xchatmohammadag: it isn't interesting
12:41.49yaccIMPS is the current name for that xmpp clone, ...
12:42.08timeless_xchatit basically gets things wrong, like dereferencing symlinks
12:42.14sivangMohammadAG: there's a bunch of free software laying around that accomplish the same
12:42.23timeless_xchatit reads a directory /etc/osso-backup/ (?)
12:42.31yaccAnyway, I take it that Maemo does not support having multiple outgoing data connections at the same time?
12:42.35timeless_xchatwhich more or less controls its behavior
12:42.36sivangyacc: yes, but I am more keen to learn how MMS works and what is it really consisted of
12:42.37MohammadAGI don't care, it's called osso-* it should be open
12:42.42timeless_xchatyou could write a better one
12:42.46yaccsivang, what for?
12:42.52sivangtimeless_xchat: and takes all the dot files fro you "home"
12:42.57timeless_xchatheck, i'll gladly help you
12:43.17sivangtimeless_xchat: in C++/Qt ? :-)
12:43.29timeless_xchatsivang?
12:43.38yaccsivang, MMS is really a sick thing, expensive, and way inferior to simple email, and nowadays even stupid phones start to support standard email protocols.
12:43.46timeless_xchatmohammadag, the problem was that nokia renamed the organization "osso"
12:43.56timeless_xchatthey couldn't call things "nokia"
12:44.05timeless_xchatthey had to use their organization name
12:44.11sivangtimeless_xchat: what did osso stood for?
12:44.21sivangtimeless_xchat: writing a new backup app....
12:44.38sivangyacc: so you say it is deprecated?
12:44.39famicomis it safe to do an apt-get upgrade on the n900
12:44.44timeless_xchatand while the engineers (and typically local managers) wanted and expected to open source things
12:44.45timeless_xchatsomething got stuck beyond them preventing it
12:44.56timeless_xchatopen source software opportunity - or thereabouts
12:45.02sivangyacc: some people find it easier to send something to a phone number they have of someone rather then his email, and making him see it shortly after
12:45.03slonopotamusfamicom: yep. not dist-upgrade though.
12:45.06luke-jr_timeless_xchat: no, the problem was that "osso" should have BSDL everything as policy
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12:45.23timeless_xchatsivang : i don't care. html + web server would be fine
12:45.34sivangyacc: for example, if you're in Budapest and want to send images of shoes you want to buy for your friend
12:45.46timeless_xchatluke: policies are made to be broken
12:45.52sivangyacc: you don't want to deal with network connection, and the store's WIFI is protected and you don
12:45.59yaccsivang, yeah, depends upon your plan, but while it may be easier, most people do not appreciate the say 0,40EUR that sending a MMS would cost me.
12:46.05sivangyacc: have time to use aircrack-ng ;)
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12:46.19sivangyacc: yes it is very exapansive
12:46.22yaccsivang, data roaming is cheaper than MMS roaming.
12:46.30fralsfree mms \o/
12:46.51sivangfrals: ? :)
12:47.02sivangmaybe for the sender ;)
12:47.11luke-jr_sivang: deal with network connection? more likely to get normal data working than MMS data
12:47.25fralsuh, you have to pay to receive messages? what kind of third world country do you live in? ;)
12:48.08yaccfrals, for MMS if you receive them in roaming you usually have to pay the roaming, ...
12:48.18sivangfrals: isn't it clear already? :-p
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12:48.29fralsyeah, true, roaming prices are silly
12:48.31yaccBecause MMS is just a data connection to an internal server of your operator to retrieve the image.
12:48.43timeless_xchatkicks ham
12:49.05timeless_xchatsystem modal alerts hidden in other application windows. great
12:49.33sivangI was charged around 5$ for 1 minute call from Vienna
12:49.37sivangfor reference
12:49.56*** join/#maemo otep (~quassel@AP-203.167.31.157.sysads.com)
12:50.08luke-jr_wonders if T-Mobile Europe plans work in USA
12:50.08sivangand data rates are higher in-country and ofcourse out-country
12:50.24sivanghence why I'd love to use MMS, or make fMMS work :)
12:50.29luke-jr_sivang: of course?
12:50.33fralsfMMS works ;p
12:50.42timeless_xchatluke: you won't like the roaming fee
12:50.48sivangfrals: reading the source, I realized I should ask my carrier for the MMS APN id/password etc ;)
12:50.56luke-jr_timeless_xchat: roaming on your own provider?
12:51.00timeless_xchatheck, roaming on o2 from uk to .ie sucks iirc
12:51.05timeless_xchatluke: sure
12:51.08fralssivang: that should be obviosu from the configuration dialog, but each to his own ;)
12:51.12luke-jr_wtf
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12:51.36sivangfrals: there was none! at least in the previouse version, let me check again. /me reds
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12:52.14fralssivang: has been since 0.3 or something iirc ;)
12:52.20sivangwhat? HAM does not support speed search??
12:52.29sivangfrals: oh, I guess my setup was borked
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12:52.36timeless_xchatif it isn't your provider, the pair might not have a roaming agreement at all == no service
12:52.49sivangfrals: I spend some time trying to understand how to work it out and did not see a setup window, I'm now on 1.2 so maybe that'll be better
12:52.49luke-jr_over bere, Cricket has a plan including like 1000 roaming minutes with other providers :P
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12:53.03steinexMohammadAG: one can not make calls when using jaunty on the n900 right?
12:53.04sivangtimeless_xchat: 'pair' ?
12:53.04*** join/#maemo an0therb0x (~priest@pool-173-66-165-9.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
12:53.10timeless_xchatif it is your provider, at least you shouldn't have to worry about that
12:53.10steinexMohammadAG: that would be awesome
12:53.22luke-jr_and a cell company would not stay in business if they charged roaming on their own network
12:53.35sivangfrals: /me curious, how did you find all this details about gconf settings and dbus calls needed to work this out? it is a nice source to learn from
12:53.43timeless_xchatthere was a time when people in e.g. Silver Spring, MD were roaming (on their network) when they went 5mins south into Washington, D.C.
12:53.59sivangfrals: the MMSs are sent using a dbus call as well right? (from the cont. class)
12:54.12sivangtimeless_xchat: hehe
12:54.19luke-jr_maybe there's a reason USA plans are so expensive
12:54.24luke-jr_if Europe
12:54.26fralswappushd interaction i got from nokia, rest was pretty much digging around :p
12:54.36luke-jr_if Europe's cheaper plans are piled up with insane roaming fees
12:54.40timeless_xchatthese days, most people at least in the dc metro area have a plan which doesn't count that as roaming
12:54.42timeless_xchatbut i'm not sure what portion of people actually have nationwide roaming
12:54.45an0therb0xcan anyone let me know if there is a tv remote software for the n900 ?
12:54.53sivangfrals: wappushd is open source?
12:54.58fralssivang: no
12:54.59sivangfrals: or was discussed on FN ?
12:55.10fralssivang: its in the sdk now
12:55.11timeless_xchatluke: you have heard my roaming bills for w/in Europe, right?
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12:55.18luke-jr_timeless_xchat: I can't imagine any nationwide cell company in the US can stay in business while considering it roaming
12:55.27luke-jr_timeless_xchat: no
12:55.28sivangfrals: but it's enough to use it, you don't really need the source?
12:55.39fralssivang: only need the headers since the dbus api is there
12:55.40timeless_xchat1k/2k EUR in single months
12:55.50sivangfrals: nice, cool
12:55.59fralssivang: no clue whats on FN as i dont think ive ever used it for maemo5-stuff
12:56.29timeless_xchati also managed a 3k EUR bill for one month, but that involed ukraine which isn't .eu
12:56.51sivango_O
12:57.01timeless_xchat(oh, and roaming with two phones using data on both concurrently definitely helps if you want high bills...)
12:57.03luke-jr_timeless_xchat: where you actually roaming, or just travelling on the same network?
12:57.21sivangfrals: why is SMS referred to as wappush in some web resources? what's the connection?
12:57.28timeless_xchatelisa doesn't really have coverage outside nordic countries
12:57.29sivangfrals: and hence MMS is said to use it
12:57.39sivangtimeless_xchat: but what a name for a provider ;)
12:57.39timeless_xchatbut the eu is supposedly "regulated"
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12:58.10sivanghere it is 'partner communications' that carry orange
12:58.14sivangor market the orange brand
12:58.18timeless_xchatwhich means that roaming fees for non data are capped (everyone bills at the cap - duh, why compete?)
12:58.51timeless_xchatthe eu solution to large bills was to ask networks to automatically disable service when the bill goes too high
12:58.54fralssivang: wap push is a 'special' sms usually
12:59.08timeless_xchatbecause obviously you'd rather not have service while roaming...
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12:59.20sivangfrals: interesting, does it carry wap packets using sms or control channel transport?
12:59.22timeless_xchatthat is why you took your phone with you, right?
12:59.37timeless_xchatshiny toy to amuse the 3 year olds?
12:59.58sivangtimeless_xchat: paying for incoming calls from your original carrier while you're roaming is also normal?
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13:00.10timeless_xchatnot sure
13:00.15fralssivang: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Application_Protocol#WAP_Push
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13:00.29sivangfrals: I also pay for that, same as I would have initiated the call almost.
13:00.30sivang:p
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13:00.49luke-jr_timeless_xchat: 3 year olds aren't amused by phones
13:01.00timeless_xchatit required approval to see my bill in detail
13:01.00timeless_xchatso i didn't look
13:01.00timeless_xchatask sp3000
13:01.06sivangfrals: wikipedia is good enough as a resource? many say it is highly inaccurate :-p
13:01.28timeless_xchatluke: well, then you have a not so useful brick, don't you?
13:01.28sivangreading the standard , was intriguing, but made me fall asleep.
13:01.47fralssivang: that + the rfc was good enough for me going from 0 knowledge to getting a working-ish implementation so ;)
13:01.47sivangluke-jr_: install angry birds
13:01.48luke-jr_timeless_xchat: presumably there might be a 1 year old around…
13:02.06sivangfrals: cool, 'll start with Vikipedia and go to the RFC
13:02.07luke-jr_sivang: I think Nokia wanted to force me to register for something to get that
13:02.09fralsuh s/rfc/spec/
13:02.23lcukyounsters adore mobile phones
13:02.27sivangfrals: thanks! liked your KISS python in the sources
13:02.31lcukits a shame they arent quite waterproof though
13:02.32*** join/#maemo Dragnslcr (~scott@c-24-34-165-208.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
13:02.47frals:)
13:02.52Jaffalcuk: Depends, is there any local information you need to get to open maemo.org? Not sure there is...
13:03.11*** join/#maemo swo (~swo@p5DF3AF4D.dip.t-dialin.net)
13:03.29lcukJaffa, it was half in jest - but technically I wonder why the info cannot be gotten directly from browser
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13:03.34timeless_xchatsivang : that's what they're there for
13:03.35timeless_xchatbedtime reading (for the insomniacs)
13:03.35timeless_xchatlcuk: indeed
13:03.39timeless_xchatbounce works well for children of many ages
13:03.47lcukisnt location a browser feature nowadays
13:04.16timeless_xchatlcuk : what about location?
13:04.28timeless_xchatwe don't expose cell tower info to content
13:04.32lcukwell the webapp jaffa wrapped for the nokia service
13:04.46lcukahh
13:04.50timeless_xchatwe take that info and convert it into a location/precision
13:04.54lcukbut gps is available?
13:05.04timeless_xchatthe browser exposes the result
13:05.06*** join/#maemo Wamanuz (~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com)
13:05.11lcukreasonable
13:05.14timeless_xchateither from gps or towers or wifi macs
13:05.22lcukso the underlying method isnt important
13:05.28timeless_xchatdepends on what nokia was doing
13:05.37timeless_xchatright
13:05.38lcukappreciates that api abstraction
13:05.58sivangluke-jr_: the MMS spec?
13:06.05lcuksivang, dig dig dig
13:06.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:06.19sivanglcuk: ?
13:06.20timeless_xchatsadly we don't support "user entered info"
13:06.21timeless_xchatas a method
13:06.22timeless_xchatkicks dougt
13:06.22timeless_xchatnothing prevents it, but it isn't included
13:06.24timeless_xchatwhich sucks
13:06.31lcukit took a lot of effort for frals to roundup and boil the available info into fmms
13:06.38lcukmaking fmms the uber spec at the moment :P
13:07.02fralsfwiw fmms conciders the spec more like guidelines then anything else ;)
13:07.12sivangluke-jr_: you had to register to get the spec?
13:07.17lcuksivang, if you ask frals nicely, he will do a poetic recital of the spec for you :D
13:07.24lcukin welsh
13:07.29sivanglcuk: I won't dare to ask him this :)
13:07.42sivanghehe
13:08.03sivanglcuk: I have a Welsh friend from Collabora, I barely understood his tongue.
13:08.08lcuktimeless_xchat, most people dont need it
13:08.12Jaffalcuk: Location isn't a browser feature on Here and Now :-p
13:08.16timeless_xchats/then/than/
13:08.16timeless_xchat(comparison, not conclusion )
13:08.22lcukhas a Welsh colleague from Collabora
13:08.34sivanglcuk: daf perhaps?
13:08.39lcukJaffa, but it could be a coverpage
13:08.41lcukgiving the link
13:09.17Jaffalcuk: Theoretically, yes, I guess so.
13:09.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:09.21fralssivang: mms spec etc is all on oma so shouldnt have to register but was a bit hard to find the dl link at times :p
13:09.33lcukjaffa so it could be done directly with a bookmark
13:09.38Jaffalcuk: I'm not sure why that'd be any benefit (especially since the service I'm giving access to is cid & mncc based)
13:09.50timeless_xchatcould someone please tell rama kurvakat that Qt isn't spelled with a capital t?
13:09.51timeless_xchatlcuk : most people are stationary and don't need anything
13:09.51timeless_xchatif you're traveling *to* a place and want info in advance
13:09.51timeless_xchatthen being able to act like you're there is important
13:09.53Jaffalcuk: Not with H&N, because it handles the geocoding.
13:10.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:10.53lcuktimeless_xchat, very wise
13:11.02lcukand thats more likely
13:11.17lcukso its not "Here & now" and "There & future"
13:11.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:11.36sivanglcuk: there & then?
13:11.39*** join/#maemo croppa (~stuart@202-90-54-173.static.linearg.net)
13:12.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:12.25timeless_xchat[Sun Oct 03 00:45:12 2010] [error] [client 117.254.146.50] /home/timeless/bin/glimpse: relocation error: /home/timeless/bin/glimpse: symbol errno, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference, referer: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_USB
13:12.36lcukif you set your clock wrong and connect to here and now, does it show old info?
13:12.42sivangtimeless_xchat:  are you chatting from the N900 by any chance?
13:12.47timeless_xchatsp3000 : glimpse needs a rebuild
13:13.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:13.23timeless_xchatuhuh
13:13.36timeless_xchatno other computers on this trip...
13:14.01DocScrutinizer*curses* Nokia cellmo/isi closed aproach to celltower/neighbour-cells/TA info
13:14.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:14.30Stskeepsisn't that info in ISI spec?
13:14.33*** join/#maemo nandu (~nandu@122.172.46.139)
13:14.56nanduhow to install sdl in scratch box??
13:14.57DocScrutinizeranother instance where Nokia basically said "yes, we *could* disclose this info to user, but we won't :-P"
13:15.15nandufor N900
13:16.24DocScrutinizeror, more precisely, they said "e're looking into it" and then never picked up again on the topic
13:22.29Arkenoidoesn't agps api handle TA values to get better positioning when no satellites are available?
13:23.31*** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@78.146.42.19)
13:23.32DocScrutinizertzz, prolly nobody outside Nokia knows
13:23.58DocScrutinizeras if they had some patent on TA
13:24.47*** join/#maemo guardian (~guardian@i07v-62-34-48-83.d4.club-internet.fr)
13:25.17DocScrutinizeractually they have NO patent (at least not legally): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html
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13:25.29sivangArkenoi: can it be better than GPS or just used as a fallback?
13:26.02Arkenoisivang: fallback, as it is unlikely to be precise enough, TA step is 150m or something
13:26.10DocScrutinizersivang: read ^^that post. Indoors it clearly can be way superior
13:26.27DocScrutinizerArkenoi: as well ^^
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13:28.18*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:28.56Arkenoiiirc it was easy to get full "netmon"-style info in symbian
13:29.33Jaffasivang: Quicker too
13:29.48DocScrutinizerthere's netmon for N900, but it doesn't provide anything beyond mere basics
13:30.00RST38hMoo, Arkenoi, Doc
13:30.05sivangare there any client on the wild for that?
13:30.07DocScrutinizerand likes to segfault :-P
13:30.39dRbiGis there any app for n900 that kind'a acts like a file browser but over bluetooth?
13:30.45sivangDocScrutinizer: yes, I reading this but it is a bit too GSM lowlever technical for me without more reading :)
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13:30.52RST38hdrBig: Not in Maemo5
13:31.19RST38hhas heard bt gfs functionality can be somehow reenabled though
13:31.45dRbiGRST38h: and what is there that i could try to port then?
13:32.00dRbiGthat is: i have no idea for what software should i look
13:32.08DocScrutinizersivang: bottom line is: force-assiciate to several neighbour stations, for each one get TA. You end with a pattern of intersecting rings with a width of 550m each
13:32.34dRbiGhmm, on the other hand geting stuff like gvfs or fuse would be nice to browse samba shares, maybe this stuff has some bt support too
13:32.48DocScrutinizerso with primary and first neighbour BTS you have an area of trpzoid shape and 550*550m
13:33.05DocScrutinizer3rd BTS cuts down significantly on that area
13:33.18DocScrutinizeralso 4th, 5th aso
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13:33.38RST38hdRbiG: Maemo5 uses Gnome file access backends
13:34.06RST38hdRbiG: Among those, there is a backend to access files on bt devices (obex://)
13:34.20dRbiGo, so there is obex already
13:34.21dRbiGgood
13:34.28dRbiGthx!
13:34.31RST38hdRbiG: I suggest you look at how it is implemented inGnome and try the same tricks on Maemo5
13:34.33DocScrutinizerfor all I can tell Nokia is just using network identifier to determine which land I'm in
13:34.47RST38hdRbiG: In THEORY,it should work
13:35.02DocScrutinizerso possibly off a few 100..1000km from my actual position
13:35.19RST38hdRbiG: Once you get it to work via some tricks, contact CepiPerez on talk.maemo.org and ask him to include this functionality into his FileBox file manager
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13:35.44RST38hdRbiG: Personally, I would support such a request, and many other people would as weel
13:36.13dRbiGRST38h: FileBox is the default browser? (i have localized menus)
13:37.05*** join/#maemo kwtm (~kwtm1@adsl-75-61-107-251.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
13:38.10DocScrutinizersivang: what I sketched in that psot is a way to get a location up to a precision <100m off, *inside* buildings where no GPS ever will work
13:38.33Stskeepswith TA?
13:38.34Stskeeps:P
13:38.37DocScrutinizeryes
13:38.45DocScrutinizerand no :-P
13:38.48RST38hdRbiG: FileBox is the *usable* browser
13:38.49Stskeepsthe problem with TA is that in bigger cities, you'll always have it low
13:39.04DocScrutinizerso what?
13:39.20Stskeepsas in it gets useless for precision, even at 100m
13:40.07DocScrutinizerStskeeps: read the post, understand the principle, then come back criticising
13:40.43StskeepsDocScrutinizer: didn't criticise the principle, was just pondering about foundation
13:41.08RST38hWhy do you ever need a location inside the building? Just use a bigger payload!
13:41.26sivangDocScrutinizer: yes, that's what you imply in the post- very nice
13:41.34dRbiGRST38h: usable or not that wasn't my question :P
13:41.40StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i worked with in-door positioning technologies for 2-3 years at uni, we even tried radiation based positioning :)
13:41.54StskeepsDocScrutinizer: but i'll read post better and give a proper feedback
13:42.22lindi-Stskeeps: cool. have you done anything with RTK-GPS stuff?
13:42.46Stskeepslindi-: hmm, think that was after i switched to healthcare
13:43.12DocScrutinizerStskeeps: when I got somewhat equidistant points on a map (call those BTS) and I know I'm <550m away from 3 of them, and 550m<x<1100m away from another 2, what accuracy would you expect that'll give me? think about it
13:43.44StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i forget my GSM, but don't you only have TA from one BTS?
13:43.58DocScrutinizerread the post
13:44.08sivangDocScrutinizer: what are those BTSs?
13:44.21DocScrutinizerbase transmitter stations aka towers
13:45.12*** join/#maemo piggz (~piggz@78.146.42.19)
13:45.16sivangDocScrutinizer: ah
13:45.24sivangrereads post
13:46.28DocScrutinizerI'm forcing the mobile equipment into registering with neighbour cells, by exploiting NOKIA's(!) net monitor function in 6210
13:46.49DocScrutinizerso I get TA for more than just primary aka servincing BTS
13:47.28piggzwhat is the best sdk for building qt/kde apps for maemo?(so far im aware of the nokia qt sdk, and the maemo sdk vm)
13:47.37StskeepsDocScrutinizer: yeah, true, that could work
13:48.04DocScrutinizeralas on 6210 I couldn't implement a proper app for that, and on N900 the functions in ISI/celmo are missing (as they are on FR btw)
13:48.10sivangpiggz: the nokia qt sdk will save you trouble setting up
13:48.21sivangis that netmon available onN900?
13:48.56piggzsivang: i have it set up already, but it totally failed at loading koffice as a cmake project in qtcreator...was weird, the first letter was missing from all file/dir names!
13:50.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
13:51.29*** join/#maemo The|Avatar (~quassel@i59F562A6.versanet.de)
13:52.01sivangpiggz: don't know about koffice
13:53.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
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13:56.33The|AvatarHas anybody here experience in developing OpenGLES2 applications?
13:58.23pupnik_how many OpenGLES2 applications do you see for maemo, The|Avatar?
13:59.44The|AvatarThere are some. Some engines have been ported and there are some apps for download on OVI. Why?
14:00.09timeless_xchatsp3000 : i'm going to hit packages.debian.org for debian linux 5 (x64)
14:01.22timeless_xchatis lenny == 5 == "stable" these days?
14:01.53SwedeMikeyes.
14:02.38timeless_xchatgrr
14:03.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:05.13timeless_xchathates trying to find/get glimpse
14:05.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:05.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:06.41*** join/#maemo th3_4zarado (~jl@186.213.49.91)
14:06.48*** join/#maemo felipec (~felipec@a91-153-253-80.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
14:07.09RST38hKILL KILL DESTROY
14:08.07StskeepsRST38h: ?
14:09.06th3_4zaradonuts
14:09.19steinexwarte auf renteNokia-N900:/usr/bin# aptitude
14:09.20steinexOuch!  Got SIGSEGV, dying..
14:09.25steinexhmm
14:09.33pupnik_The most annoying kids in high school were those who lusted after power - student government.
14:09.38*** join/#maemo onen|openBmap (~quassel@vbo91-1-89-87-201-85.dsl.club-internet.fr)
14:12.14timeless_xchatok, now i have a version of glimpse that runs
14:12.22timeless_xchatbut it doesn't like my data
14:12.29PolarFoxpupnik_: lusted for MY power...
14:13.01sivangtimeless_xchat: you isntalled glimpse x64 on the device?
14:13.32korhojoaanyone know of a way to get a n900 to charge via a usb power pack
14:13.39korhojoadoes it require the middle pair to be shorted?
14:13.52korhojoabecause it seems to be hit and miss for me when it charges
14:14.26korhojoai just drew in lines between the two contacts with a pencil, and now it's charging :P
14:14.38timeless_xchathttp://mxr.maemo.org/flashsupport/search?string=xxx&find=&findi=&filter=%5E%5B%5E%5C0%5D*%24&hitlimit=&tree=flashsupport
14:15.02timeless_xchatsivang : mxr.maemo.org doesn't run on an n900 ;-b
14:15.06RST38hStskeeps: the sar3* guy.
14:15.22DocScrutinizerkohyes
14:15.23RST38hpupnik: This is true for elsewhere too
14:15.30StskeepsRST38h: ah
14:15.41sivangtimeless_xchat: ah, and all of this tinkering you do from the n900? :-o
14:15.43RST38hpupnik: Workplace, government, etc.
14:15.56timeless_xchatkorhojoa: in general, if you don't short, it tries to negotiate for power
14:15.56DocScrutinizerkorhojoa: yes
14:16.00timeless_xchatsivang : ayup
14:16.23sivangtimeless_xchat: admirable
14:16.23nidOkorhojoa: in order to charge without having to short, you simply need a charging cable, not a data cable.
14:17.15RST38hpupnik: maemo.org too ;)
14:17.17DocScrutinizernidO: duh what? charging cable? is that an official USB spec?
14:17.51timeless_xchatsp3000 : looks like i forgot to copy the search databases - oops :o
14:18.00sp3000:)
14:18.03nidOwell no, its just the kind of cable supplied with almost any usb charger or similar, that has the data pins missing
14:18.27*** join/#maemo Chani (~chani@twinsen.warpedgames.com)
14:18.37DocScrutinizererr, and that's supposed to short D+- how?
14:19.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:19.34timeless_xchat-rw-rw-r--  1 timeless timeless 501M Jul  7 03:26 xref
14:19.47timeless_xchatit'll take a bit to copy the database over,
14:19.58timeless_xchatlemme figure out if i have useful magic for it
14:19.58DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: xchat better now? :-D
14:20.15Chanihey, can someone give me an up-to-date sources.list for the n900? mine's failing 3 of 4 repos...
14:20.26*** join/#maemo djdm (~deejaydee@rbldn.demon.co.uk)
14:20.34DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: hope you love my sucking config :-P
14:20.40pupnik_nice RST38h
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14:23.18timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : haven't had time... too complicated
14:23.41timeless_xchati just changed the foreground color to black and the background color to white
14:23.55timeless_xchatthat alone makes it vaguely usable
14:24.45kwtmHi! What do I need to go again to be able to use sudo instead of su (root)?  THere's some sudoers file but I can't seem to find the page at maemo.org any more.
14:24.48*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:24.57kwtminfobot: sudo
14:24.57infobot[~sudo] Better than su, according to talon. It allows a permitted user to execute a command as the superuser or another user, as specified in the sudoers file. Or can allow you to do silly things like run X11 apps with root privileges; also good in scripts with "username ALL = NOPASSWD: /some/program", or http://www.aplawrence.com/Basics/sudo.html, or good for ordering sandwiches, or not pseudo
14:25.04timeless_xchatinstall rootsh
14:25.16timeless_xchatinfobot: rootsh
14:25.16infobotrumour has it, rootsh is an easy way to get root and it's found here: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/rootsh/, or http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/rootsh/
14:25.49timeless_xchatinfobot: gainroot
14:25.55timeless_xchatinfobot: gainroot?
14:25.56kwtmtimeless_xchat: I do have rootsh installed. Would appreciate help getting from there to sudo, since my user still cannot use sudo yet.
14:26.10timeless_xchatsudo gainroot
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14:26.18sivanghad to remove recaller since it somehow rejected calls
14:26.31sivangand started doing so just like this, out of the blue
14:26.43sivangalso wonders why it uses .aac ?!
14:27.02kwtmsivang: I also had some problems with recaller and had to remove it. :P  Some time ago, though; I can't remember what my problem was.
14:27.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:28.11sivangkwtm: it started rejecting calls like a madman, so it got removed.
14:28.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:28.43timeless_xchatsp3000 : looking forward to 9am tomorrow?
14:29.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:29.31sp3000timeless_xchat: my morning starts at 6am I think but yeah
14:29.36*** join/#maemo messerting (~messertin@39.79-161-65.customer.lyse.net)
14:29.43sp3000you'll be flying still?
14:30.54kwtmtimeless_xchat: Thank you for responding to my query about sudo.  Are you able to help me?
14:30.56timeless_xchatin about an hour
14:31.08timeless_xchatkwtm: ask the channel
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14:31.31timeless_xchati disappear randomly, sometimes for hours (flight coming...)
14:31.31sp3000oh, you'll be like right on time then
14:31.35kwtmtimeless_xchat: I already had rootsh installed (and I can do all things as the superuser); but when I try to execute sudo (e.g. "sudo ls") it states that I do not have permission.
14:31.38sp3000brb, milking cow
14:31.47kwtmI believe that I need to edit the sudoers file, but do not have details on this.
14:31.56kwtmGoogle fails to isolate the correct web page at maemo.org
14:32.03sp3000or shopping for foor, whatever, same result
14:32.06timeless_xchatkwtm "sudo gainroot"
14:32.07sp3000food even
14:32.11timeless_xchatnot "sudo whatever"
14:32.13timeless_xchatkwtm "sudo gainroot"
14:32.14timeless_xchatnot "sudo whatever"
14:32.15timeless_xchatkwtm "sudo gainroot"
14:32.16timeless_xchatnot "sudo whatever"
14:32.21sp3000(less moo though)
14:32.38kwtmtimeless_xchat: You did mention "sudo gainroot" which I had already tried, but tried again just in case I missed something.
14:32.44timeless_xchatkwtm : ls is busybox
14:32.46kwtmtimeless_xchat: it appears to give me a root prompt.
14:32.52timeless_xchatyou can't make it su
14:32.59timeless_xchatit gets pissy
14:33.27timeless_xchatwriting a sudoers file is fairly trivial
14:33.35marienzeyes the spammer
14:33.36timeless_xchati've done it a dozen times
14:33.53kwtmtimeless_xchat: I agree that it would be trivial for you.  Perhaps you could give me some pointers?  E.g. where should the file be located, and what should its contents be?
14:34.14timeless_xchat<PROTECTED>
14:34.35timeless_xchatbut there's a perfectly good manual page for it
14:34.44kwtm"/etc/sudoers.d/" appears to be a directory, but is there any particular file it should contain?
14:34.45timeless_xchatgoogle really will work
14:34.47*** join/#maemo sheepbat (~lev3k@c-98-238-227-32.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
14:34.54kwtmExcellent!  I will try again with google with that keyword.
14:35.06kwtmThank you for the info, and also the info that you have done it dozens of times.
14:35.09timeless_xchateach file in there is added into sudoers
14:35.21timeless_xchatupdate-sudoers or whatever manages that
14:35.38timeless_xchatbasically any file in there is an example. ..
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14:36.26kwtmah, so I would need to run the update-sudoers program as part of the trivial task of writing a sudoers file.  Got it.
14:37.00timeless_xchatcould someone please give david galindo a better icon for "calculus"?
14:37.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:37.21timeless_xchatif you use the directory (as you should...)
14:38.24timeless_xchatooh, a catorize ui?
14:39.26kwtmOkay, the manual page appears to list parameters that I do not need to learn right now, so I have instead gone and checked my desktop linux installation and see now that what I need to do is echo "%sudo ALL=(ALL) ALL" > /etc/sudoers , so I will try that.
14:39.45timeless_xchatdon't do that
14:39.53*** join/#maemo Erod (~Juno@unaffiliated/erod)
14:40.00kwtmOh, what sort of negative consequences are there for doing this?
14:40.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:40.17timeless_xchatif you mess up, your device won't work?
14:40.30timeless_xchatyou're replacing a file the system uses
14:40.37sivangtimeless_xchat: what's that thing with the icon? :)
14:40.52timeless_xchatthe reason there's a directory for such files
14:40.56timeless_xchatand a management script
14:41.09timeless_xchatis to enable *safe* management and coexistence
14:41.19timeless_xchatyou're stomping on all existing users
14:41.24timeless_xchatwhich is braindead
14:41.30kwtmAh, I see now.  I've managed to locate http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access (apparently it's "sudser" and not "sudoer"??)
14:41.44marienz...I hope not
14:41.47*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:42.05timeless_xchatwhenever you see a single greater than, think "i'm not looking before i'm leaping, this will probably be very bad"
14:42.21timeless_xchatshakes head
14:42.34timeless_xchatif you don't understand how sudoers works, don't touch!!
14:42.38kwtmI am continuing to read the sudoers file manual in the meanwhile, but need to make sure I understand it correctly because there are no examples.
14:42.44timeless_xchata phone is a terrible thing to waste
14:43.02kwtmtimeless_xchat: Well, naturally, I would agree.  I came to this IRC channel to understand how sudoers works.
14:43.21timeless_xchat~ $ ls -l /etc/sudoers.d|wc -l
14:43.29timeless_xchat14
14:43.40timeless_xchatyour mileage may vary
14:43.50timeless_xchatbut that's roughly a dozen examples
14:43.55timeless_xchatfree with every n900
14:44.24timeless_xchatmaybe only 8 or 9 come with the device
14:44.35timeless_xchata bunch of apps have apparently supplemented my set
14:44.57*** join/#maemo jrocha (~JRocha@88.30.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
14:45.01sivangtimeless_xchat: he can always reflash ;p
14:45.08kwtmtimeless_xchat: that appears to have a different approach than what I am familiar with: apparently each command needs to be sudo enabled separately?
14:45.24DocScrutinizerpipes timeless_xchat | uniq again. First warning!
14:45.43timeless_xchatkwtm : read each file
14:46.00timeless_xchatand learn how to use dpkg -S
14:46.04kwtmtimeless_xchat: In other words, for example, I could not use that approach to read/write to a privileged directory with piping in the middle fo a shell script?
14:46.13kwtmtimeless_xchat: Currently reading each file now.
14:46.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
14:46.59lindi-that sudoers.d is some maemo thing I guess, does visudo support editing those?
14:47.03timeless_xchatoffhand, it sounds like you want to do something incredibly dangerous
14:47.16kwtmIt is difficult to get an overall sense of how this works from each individual file, but am I correct above that each command is separately specified?  For example, I don't see a listing for "ls"...
14:47.44timeless_xchatSudoers Manual
14:47.56timeless_xchatsudo will read each file in /etc/sudoers.d, skipping file names that end in ~ or contain a . character to avoid …
14:48.02kwtmtimeless_xchat: Not necessarily "incredibly dangerous".  From time to time one would need to do something as su, and I'd rather specifically make each line sudo rather than run a whole script as root.
14:48.06timeless_xchatwww.sudo.ws/sudo/sudoers.man.html
14:48.31timeless_xchatlindi : i don't know why you'd call that "maemo" specfic. ..
14:48.38lindi-ah indeed "Note that unlike files included via #include, visudo will not edit the files in a #includedir directory unless one of them contains a syntax error. It is still possible to run visudo with the -f flag to edit the files directly."
14:48.46lindi-timeless_xchat: probably because I was mistaken :)
14:48.51kwtmOkay, maybe I'm making a wrong assumption here: does the sudo command allow me to run one command as root (e.g. "I want to do 'ls' as root rather than as user")?  Or is it for specific commands.
14:49.18timeless_xchatread the F***** manual
14:49.32timeless_xchatand keep in mind that it doesn't allow "you"
14:49.41kwtmtimeless_xchat: wow, I never thought someone would actually say that literally to me.
14:49.47timeless_xchatit allows (generally ) anything on a given device
14:50.07timeless_xchati've never written it out before either...
14:50.14lindi-seems #includedir was implemented in 2009-04-18
14:50.17kwtmtimeless_xchat: But, anyway, as I said, I am currently reading it.  It describes the definitions and aliases etc., but I am trying to figure out what it all means put together.
14:50.21timeless_xchatbut i just pasted a manual link for lindi a few lines ago
14:50.39timeless_xchatlindi : maemo uses update-sudoers, not #include iirc
14:50.47*** join/#maemo sar3th|away (sar3th@unaffiliated/sar3th)
14:51.09DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: (sudo will read each file in /etc/sudoers.d) doesn't apply to maemo's weird 'increased security' boot slowdown update-sudoers sheme though
14:51.14timeless_xchatkwtm : keep in mind that sudo is designed to enable "least privilege"
14:51.15kwtmFor example, "user definitions" ... what would it take to allow a given user, such as "user", to run root commands?  I'm trying to sort out what I need to do from other info that is not directly relevant.  For example, I don't think aliases are relevant at this point.
14:51.31timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : err, do we do that at boot?!
14:51.53timeless_xchatalways saw it in postinst/prerm
14:51.55DocScrutinizerlindi-: checking files in sudoers.d with visudo is exactly what update-sudoers is all about
14:51.57timeless_xchator whatever
14:52.05DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: yes
14:52.05kwtmAlso it talks about User_Spec ::= User_List Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List \
14:52.08kwtm(':' Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List)*
14:52.33kwtmI am trying to figure out if the backslash at the end of the first line is a continuation (ie. without it I can put both lines on a single line) or whether it is "or" or whether it is required.
14:52.34timeless_xchatkwtm : if you're actually concerned about other processes on your device
14:52.36*** join/#maemo crashanddie (~slauwers@Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie)
14:52.42kwtmetc. etc.
14:53.10kwtmI presume User_List is the name of a list of users --can I put a single user name on there?  If it is asking for a list, is it a list separated by spaces, or commas, or the NAME of a list?  etc. etc.
14:53.12timeless_xchatthen having a bunch of magic commands which more or less write arbitrary data to restricted directories is probably a bad idea
14:53.21lindi-timeless_xchat: ah, I can't find update-sudoers from debian. so maybe that was the maemo specific part?
14:53.24kwtmI therefore came to this forum hoping to get specififc examples.
14:53.24timeless_xchatthe n900 runs almost everything as "user"
14:53.36timeless_xchatlindi : that part might be
14:53.54timeless_xchatlindi : .d/ directories grow in debian "late"
14:53.58DocScrutinizerlindi-: exactly
14:54.15timeless_xchatit's standard "we can't see beyond the tip of our nose"
14:54.16kwtmtimeless_xchat: True, and I run almost everything as "user", but there are a number of things that require "root" to run.  Instead of typing in each command at the command line, I'd rather put it in a script.  That way I can look it over and proofread before I actually run it.
14:54.47timeless_xchat"just because every other thing needed a .d/ doesn't mean we should get it right for the next thing we invent"
14:55.24DocScrutinizerkwtm: we aren't evry inclined to give examples how to do the wrong thing. That's why we try to teach you about how sudo is *supposed* to be used
14:55.33timeless_xchatkwtm : sure, but it might be better to have a script than really long commands in a sudoers file
14:55.52opdf2is there anyway to portrait mode the task switcher?
14:56.00DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: yesone thing's for sure. sudo never was meant to enable arbitrary commands to user, without any password query
14:56.07kwtmDocScrutinizer: It sounds like you are saying that using a script is the wrong approach, and you think it would be better to type in the commands individually, is that correct?  I must say I'm a bit nervous about doing that.
14:56.15DocScrutinizererr kwtm ^^^
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14:56.23timeless_xchatit sounded like you wanted to split a script of 20 lines into 7 sudo commands inside that same script
14:56.33timeless_xchatthat's wrong
14:56.45kwtmtimeless_xchat: I would agree, but isn't that what I'm saying, that we should have a script instead?
14:57.00crashanddiedeaf people having a conversation, always entertaining.
14:57.05kwtmtimeless_xchat: What do you meanm split a script of 20 lines into 7 sudo commands?  Not sure how you understand me, but perhaps I can give a use case.
14:57.12kwtmcrashanddie: Thanks. :P
14:57.21timeless_xchatjust write the script so it is well owned, protected against writes and properly handles input...
14:57.41timeless_xchata use case does tend to help
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14:58.02crashanddiein the script, just check that uid == 0, and you're done
14:58.03kwtmDocScrutinizer: What do you mean?  Sudo has no password query?  I was hoping to rely on that for protection.  If so, then sudo is not the command I'm looking for.
14:58.07crashanddieit can only be run by root or sudo.
14:58.11DocScrutinizercrashanddie: you're referring to #maemo ? :-D
14:58.19timeless_xchatcrashanddie : hey, i like sign language conversations
14:58.19crashanddieDocScrutinizer: haha :D
14:58.23lindi-kwtm: you can configure sudo to ask for password or not
14:58.34timeless_xchatso much more expressive than finnish poker faces
14:58.35crashanddietimeless_xchat: I didn't smash them, I just said they were "entertaining".
14:58.36kwtmDocScrutinizer: On my desktop linux, sudo asks for password.  Does it not do this on the N900?
14:58.49timeless_xchatit doesn't
14:58.54timeless_xchatuser doesn't have a password
14:58.57kwtmlindi-: Oh, I see.  So is it configured by default to ask for password or not?
14:59.05kwtmtimeless_xchat: What do you mean?  My sudo asks for password.
14:59.05timeless_xchatyour device wouldn't be usable if it did...
14:59.10lindi-kwtm: at this point I must confess I'm not using maemo...
14:59.25DocScrutinizerkwtm: I thought you wrapped your head around that enough to understand that this depends on /etc/sudoers.d/yourconfig
14:59.25crashanddiekwtm: one thing you may want to learn about real-time conversation: get a grip on the discussion thread, you're all over the place mate.
14:59.38kwtmtimeless_xchat: My device says: "Enter password" (and then I enter password) then "error: 'user' is not allowed to do /bin/ls" or something like that...
14:59.59kwtmcrashanddie: Sorry, must be the lag in this internet connection.
15:00.18*** join/#maemo Guest76570 (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
15:00.23timeless_xchat~ $ grep user /etc/passwd
15:00.24crashanddiekwtm: not my point, just don't ask the same question to different people, it really doesn't help.
15:00.41timeless_xchatuser:*:29999:29999::/home/user:/bin/sh
15:00.57DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: see http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for setting ip proper sudoers config to ask for ROOT password when doing *root* privileged commands
15:00.58timeless_xchatkwtm : sudo isn't particularly intelligent
15:01.23timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : don't confuse people
15:01.30DocScrutinizeroh yea
15:01.34DocScrutinizerBLARGH
15:01.47timeless_xchatand s/ip/up/ ;)
15:02.26DocScrutinizerkeys close enough on almost all kbd layouts
15:02.55timeless_xchatis using an n900, what's your excuse?
15:03.04kwtmtimeless_xchat: I think you're quoting from your password file to tell me that user has no password, right?  But you're quoting from *your* password file, right?  Mine says "user:wig2bDfifuJiewre:29999:29999::/home/user::/bin/sh
15:03.14kwtmI mean, I set a password for user, in case it hasn't been clear.
15:03.22DocScrutinizerthis mega idiocy to ask for USER password when doing 'sudo rm -rf /' - I DON'T GET IT
15:03.40kwtmDocScrutinizer: Ahh, I see what you are saying now: it should be the ROOT password it asks for?
15:03.52DocScrutinizerYES
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15:03.59timeless_xchatkwtm : setting a password for the user account on the n900 is um... odd
15:04.00sivangDocScrutinizer: this always amazed me as well
15:04.06timeless_xchatyou can do it, but why?
15:04.15timeless_xchatit isn't well encrypted
15:04.22sivangtimeless_xchat: wouldn't it affect all sorts of stuff like our poor HAM?
15:04.31kwtmOkay, I am beginning to understand you now.
15:04.33timeless_xchatwhich means anyone who picks it up now knows the cleartext
15:04.50timeless_xchatignoring that, it generally isn't checked
15:04.55sivangDocScrutinizer: really mega idiocy
15:05.09timeless_xchat~ $ sudo ls
15:05.17timeless_xchatPassword:
15:05.17*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
15:05.26timeless_xchatit's still asking me for a password
15:05.46timeless_xchatand we've already established that i don't have one
15:05.52DocScrutinizersivang: refer to http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for an easy fix
15:05.55timeless_xchatusing a password means anyone can ssh to user@
15:06.22timeless_xchatw/o a password, ssh to user@ is disabled (well, you could set up an ssh key)
15:06.37pupnik_<PROTECTED>
15:06.41timeless_xchat(this assumes you foolishly install sshd)
15:07.07pupnik_but i *like* sshing to the n900
15:07.12sivangtimeless_xchat: right, that is why I take care not to set it up
15:07.24sivangtimeless_xchat: disable challange passwords
15:07.32DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: aiui you can even 'passwd user' and still sudoers is enabling proper working maemo
15:07.45kwtmOkay, then let me back up: to prevent typos and other silly mistakes, what is the best way to run a series of commands as root?  Type them in individually?  (risk of typos)  Put it in script file and run script file as root? (able to redo commands easily if need to repeat the process, but risks running many commands as root whereas only a few lines need root privileges)  Use sudo with root password? (seems to be best but apparently
15:07.47kwtmyou are saying that it has drawbacks)
15:07.55DocScrutinizeras it always has NOPASSWD in all enabled commands
15:08.04crashanddietimeless_xchat: and exactly how is not being able to ssh to user better than being able to ssh to root?
15:08.15lcukkwtm, best way is to write your script and package it up
15:08.22lcukso that you can reproduce it simply by installing
15:08.24lcuk:)
15:08.29lcukand then others also get benefits
15:08.32timeless_xchatcrashanddie : password based root is also stupid
15:08.45crashanddietimeless_xchat: and it's what the default install of openssh-server does.
15:08.56SpeedEvilhow is it stupid?
15:08.56DocScrutinizerkwtm: using sudo with root pw is safe and sane
15:08.58timeless_xchatwhat lcuk described is what i did...
15:09.03sivangcrashanddie: true, it should use pub/priv key and have the challange passwd disabled
15:09.11crashanddieDocScrutinizer: no it's not
15:09.13lcuktimeless_xchat, thats because you are smart :)
15:09.17timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : it isn't
15:09.17sivangcrashanddie: and be abel to import keys from a usb stick inserted to it actong as OTG
15:09.19lindi-just don't ever forget your terminal unlocked or somebody might  alias sudo="/usr/bin/sudo rm -fr /"
15:09.20sivangcrashanddie: ;)
15:09.31timeless_xchatremember, we aren't using strong password hashing
15:09.34kwtmlcuk: I am not familiar with packaging, and also I am more referring to maintenance scripts (e.g. a script to backup everything to home server --that one doesn't need root privileges, of course) so it's not necessarily installing a package.  Do I really need to learn how to package before I can run root commands reliably?
15:09.34crashanddieDocScrutinizer: on an n900, *maybe*. But it really doesn't do anything else than su -c
15:09.38DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: aha, why?
15:09.52lcukkwtm, a backup script would be better inside extras :)
15:09.53timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : there isn't an /etc/shadow
15:10.01lcukthat way after you have backed up and do a normal restore
15:10.03DocScrutinizermeh
15:10.04DocScrutinizerok
15:10.05timeless_xchatread about the history of that file
15:10.07lcukit can install all your scripts back
15:10.10crashanddielindi-: rm -rf / doesn't work
15:10.14timeless_xchatwhy it exists, etc
15:10.27lcukkwtm, reproducability without scrabbling for command line options ;)
15:10.29kwtmlcuk: That is an example, but for example the backup script won't know how and when to log on to my home server and rsync which files, etc.
15:10.33lindi-crashanddie: I don't think that is the point :)
15:10.36timeless_xchatlindi : fwiw, the sun people actually spent the time proving that command should error
15:10.43timeless_xchatand theirs does
15:10.47lcukkwtm, it will be if you also backup the backup script configuration options :P
15:10.47lindi-crashanddie: feel free to add a /* there :)
15:10.48DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: I *know* about shadow
15:10.54crashanddielindi-: :)
15:11.00lcukthe maemo backup is surprisingly good at things like that
15:11.24DocScrutinizerjust consider this a minor threat compared to allowing sudo gainroot without any pw query
15:11.25timeless_xchatyeah, while we all like to bash maemo backup
15:11.26timeless_xchatit actually is handy
15:11.42kwtmlcuk: Also, am I really limited to "backup" (that was just an example) and need to get "a backup script" --what about all other possible scripts I could write, like "keep a record of cell phone signal strength" etc. --I might not be able to find a script to package for that....
15:11.50timeless_xchatdocscrutinizer : the time to crack passwd isn't significant today
15:12.04lcukkwtm, put all those other scripts into a kwtm tools package :)
15:12.04timeless_xchatso from a security perspective, it isn't worth having
15:12.12lcukand store it on a git somewhere
15:12.15sivangwhy is it based actually? apart for some small erros during the restore the break application restoration ti works quite nice
15:12.16timeless_xchatyou're enabling shoulder surfing
15:12.24DocScrutinizertimeless_xchat: crashanddie: I never claimed installing proper root password is the ultimate safety solution, I just say it's megatons better than it's now
15:12.42kwtmlcuk: So you feel that I should learn to create packages ... wouldn't that take even longer than the other options I listed?
15:12.55timeless_xchatsivang : it doesn't handle semi common edge cases
15:12.58lcukkwtm, every jedi must build his own light sabre
15:12.59kwtmlcuk: Oh, I need to run a git server?
15:13.01timeless_xchatlike recursive symlinks
15:13.07lcukkwtm, not at all
15:13.15lcukplenty of communal git hosting places
15:13.18lcukeven maemo.org :)
15:13.21lcukgitorious
15:13.23MohammadAG51gitorious.org ftw
15:13.23lcukgithub
15:13.24lcuketc
15:13.25lcuket
15:13.26sivangtimeless_xchat: ah, I see
15:13.26timeless_xchatbsh: lol
15:13.29kwtmkwtm: not trying to become a jedi, just trying to install some CJK packages.
15:13.35sivangtimeless_xchat: where do we have them on the fs?
15:13.40timeless_xchatsivang : the restore behavior also fails
15:13.40MohammadAG51it took me 5 minutes to do my first push
15:13.49timeless_xchatsivang : not out of the box
15:13.50sivangtimeless_xchat: yes, I've experienced that yesterday
15:13.51DocScrutinizerWTF is everybody stuttering today?
15:13.53timeless_xchator it wouldn't have shipped
15:14.12timeless_xchatthe single sign on people tripped on it
15:14.16lcukMohammadAG51, :) glad you have gotten over your git duck
15:14.17crashanddieDocScrutinizer: w.w.w.w..w.what?
15:14.21lcukits very useful
15:14.22timeless_xchatso when i say wouldn't have shipped,  i mean it
15:14.22kwtmlcuk: We might have gotten away fmro the original topic.  I'm not sure how hosting my packages (or creating one will help) --so, you're saying packaging will allow me to run things as root in a more secure manner than su or sudo?
15:14.42DocScrutinizer[2010-10-03 17:13:24] <lcuk> etc
15:14.45DocScrutinizer[2010-10-03 17:13:25] <lcuk> et
15:14.45timeless_xchatthey had to change their impl because backup is stupid
15:14.55kwtmlcuk: Recall that I am actually not trying to distribute a script.  I'm just running my own script so I can do it again easily if I need to.  The scripts aren't for anyone else.
15:14.58sivangtimeless_xchat: oh, that is something else
15:15.06sivangtimeless_xchat: a bit drastic
15:15.11DocScrutinizer[2010-10-03 16:39:45] <timeless_xchat> don't do that
15:15.13DocScrutinizer[2010-10-03 16:39:49] <timeless_xchat> don't do that
15:15.14DocScrutinizer[2010-10-03 16:39:50] <timeless_xchat> don't do that
15:15.33lcukkwtm, every script you write has one user: yourself, and you ARE trying to distribute it, because you will have problems after you reflash remembering yourself what you needed to do to configure it
15:15.37timeless_xchatsivang : i know where nearly all of the skeletons are hidden :)
15:15.52crashanddie<PROTECTED>
15:16.05SpeedEvil[2011-11-03 18:22:34] <speedevil> Finally - PR1.3!
15:16.08kwtmlcuk: I see.  SO I should have a package, you're saying, and if I need to reflash, then I reinstall the package and run it again, right?
15:16.11lcukmaking it a package allows you to just dpkg -i it back or install directly from HAM as part of your other restoration stuff
15:16.13timeless_xchatkwtm : you can use Mydocs as your "distribution" source fwiw
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15:16.21timeless_xchatbut a webserver is better
15:16.25DocScrutinizerSYSTEM DOWN FOR MAINTENANCE warning to channel
15:16.30sivangtimeless_xchat: so there's an app set that can create recursive symlink that will fail the backup that I can test? :)
15:16.41kwtmlcuk: But doesn't that mean I can't run the script twice?  The second time dpkg -i will say "you already installed that package".
15:16.44lcukyeah kwtm and if its sudo requiring, add a line in sudoers to run it without password
15:16.51MohammadAG51SYSTEM OF A DOWN?
15:16.58MohammadAG51oh, system down, meh
15:17.02timeless_xchatsivang : there are some bugs in bugs.maemo listing apps which trip on it
15:17.08timeless_xchatiirc one was a mail app
15:17.11sivangtimeless_xchat: heh
15:17.23sivangtimeless_xchat: that's a-nough of a hint :)
15:17.34timeless_xchatthere's also a demo package in timeless.justdave.net/maemo
15:17.42kwtmlcuk: ?? But that is the question I am asking: "How do I add a line in sudoers to run it" (not necessarily without a password, but if necessary).  I was originally asking about the sudoers manual.
15:17.56timeless_xchatfrom memory two or three real apps hit it
15:18.00lcuklol
15:18.14kwtmIt appears that the manual uses some notation I am not used to ... I think "|" means "or", not pipe.  But am still muddling through this...
15:18.17timeless_xchatplus single sign on ("fixed" before it shipped )
15:18.49timeless_xchatkwtm : write a file in sudoers.d/
15:18.53timeless_xchatand use update-sudoers
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15:19.05lcukkwtm, I just added the following into my package http://github.com/lcuk/liqbase-playground/blob/master/liqbase_base_fs/etc/sudoers.d/liqbase-playground.sudoers
15:19.08timeless_xchatthe file matches the syntax of the existing files
15:19.11lcukand in the postinst run updatesudoers
15:19.36lcukhttp://github.com/lcuk/liqbase-playground/blob/master/debian/postinst#L21
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15:19.43timeless_xchathttp://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/1003/US-issues-travel-alert-for-Americans-in-Europe
15:19.45timeless_xchat:(
15:19.50timeless_xchatit happened
15:20.04kwtmtimeless_xchat: That much is understood.  What I need help with is the format of the sudoers file.  Yes, I see that there are many examples, but none match exactly what I think I want, so I am hp=oping to UNDERSTAND what the format is instead of just copying frmo other files.
15:20.23kwtmlcuk: Okay, so I should download that file you listed and check the format?
15:20.25DocScrutinizerkwtm: check http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools, it will set up proper password query for root access. then you can add similar lines like >>user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/led-pattern-helper *<< in /etc/sudoers.d/led-pattern-editor.sudoers to your own file there
15:20.38lcukkwtm, just look at it, its text file the link shows contents
15:20.44timeless_xchatkwtm : i'd suggest you not rely on arguments
15:20.50kwtmDocScrutinizer: Thanks, reading that web page now...
15:21.01timeless_xchatand instead have a dedicated script which sanity checks args
15:21.06crashanddietimeless_xchat: bollocks
15:21.09*** join/#maemo maybeHere (cl@p4FE9F773.dip.t-dialin.net)
15:21.09timeless_xchatthen just whitelist the file
15:21.14lcukkwtm, for full docs: http://www.sudo.ws/sudo/sudoers.man.html
15:21.16lcuki believe
15:21.40timeless_xchatkeep in mind that maemo doesn't ship the latest version of sudo
15:21.47crashanddietimeless_xchat: they're just on high alert because france went to high alert because some french idiots were kidnapped in nigeria
15:21.49timeless_xchatso you might want to avoid group tricks
15:21.53lcukthe basics should be there i bet
15:22.05kwtmlcuk: Am reading that manual.  Apparently it says the lines should look something like this: "User_Spec ::= User_List Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List"  However I don't see any "::=" in the sudoers files so I think it's using a different format.
15:22.39kwtmOkay, sorry, my toddler just got up so I have to go take care of him now.  WIll leave this IRC still up so I can review responses.  Thx.
15:22.40timeless_xchatlcuk : oh it says "major" - i'm fine then ;)
15:23.01timeless_xchatkwtm : you need to google "bnf"
15:23.07DocScrutinizerkwtm: listen to what timeless_xchat suggests: create a script doing all you need in e.g /usr/local/sbin, set it to chmod og-rw, add a line to sudoers.d/yourfile to invoke that script by 'sudo myscript'
15:23.17crashanddiekwtm: defined to be
15:23.32timeless_xchatyou want the wikipedia entry or something
15:23.40sivanglcuk, DocScrutinizer : is this documented somewhere more than just snippets? maybe we could add some writeup about this from someone who understands this top-bottom?
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15:23.59lcukkwtm, you are reading the grammar rules which are used to create the parser, that is not the expected line format
15:24.03DocScrutinizersivang: what exactly now?
15:24.14lcukcontinue reading :P
15:24.27timeless_xchatsivang : it's like an instruction manual for a swiss army knife
15:24.32timeless_xchati've never seen one
15:24.32sivangDocScrutinizer: how to package a script that requires root/sudo access :)
15:24.35sivangtimeless_xchat: true
15:24.39timeless_xchatit's hardly useful
15:24.42sivanga'la maemo
15:24.50timeless_xchatjust ask macgyver
15:24.51lcuka'la linux
15:24.54DocScrutinizersivang: meh, that's trivial really
15:25.04timeless_xchatanyway
15:25.12timeless_xchati have a plane to consider
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15:26.33sivangDocScrutinizer: okay
15:26.46DocScrutinizersivang: only particular maemo thing is update-sudoers, and you strictly are NOT supposed to edit /etc/sudoers
15:27.26DocScrutinizeruse /etc/sudoers.d/* instead, add your own sudoers config there as a new file
15:27.47DocScrutinizerthen run update-sudores and profit
15:27.48MohammadAG51listen to that advice
15:27.52MohammadAG51don't be a smartass like I did once
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15:30.35sivangDocScrutinizer: that's for sure, I've never done it even on Ubuntu
15:31.00sivangMohammadAG51: I'm never a smartass :) I follow orders :-p
15:31.16sivangDocScrutinizer: if that's not on the wiki, may I go ahead and put it there?
15:31.54sivangMohammadAG51: ^^
15:32.18*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
15:32.54sivangso we have somewhere to direct people at?
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15:35.31valgrinduuh... a question...
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15:36.05valgrindusing xterm on 770 to enable usb hostmode, but folder are different from the guide on maemo
15:36.18*** join/#maemo sar3thz (sar3th@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org)
15:36.39valgrindwhy would the folder structure be different ?
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15:39.46JaffaAnyone know if there's a bug open for "packages promoted to Extras-testing aren't showing up"?
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15:42.37dRbiGvalgrind: 'cause nokia's linux 'distros' are just a set of random stuff patched and hacked together and they breake with the slightest touch of summer breeze ;)
15:43.13dRbiGvalgrind: as for your question the randomness answers it
15:43.16dRbiG:)
15:43.52valgrindhaah.. thanks..
15:44.10valgrindwith the slighest touch of summer breeze
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15:44.16valgrindnerd peotry :)
15:44.31satmdpastry?
15:44.39valgrind:D
15:44.47valgrindpottery
15:45.10dRbiGhonestly, maemo is the most f*cked up thing when it comes to coherence that i ever saw in unix world
15:46.56valgrindwell.. get even more fucked up when apps to enable usb hostmode fire off the wrong commands. and when i try manually im in a forest of folders that are incoherent with the online guides.
15:47.10valgrindits fun... but maybe too much fun
15:47.26dRbiGvalgrind: they are incoherent with one another
15:48.04dRbiGit seems to me like nokia's been employing different dev teams at random intervals with no documentation passing
15:48.09dRbiGif there ever was documentation ;)
15:48.22valgrindso the hacker edition gets to be a hacker edition of a hacker edition :( just great
15:49.34valgrindwell.. like the iPad.. still cool.. not working... but still cool :D
15:49.40dRbiGhehe
15:49.40Chanihaha
15:49.45dRbiGgood one :)
15:49.59Chanis/incoherent/inconsistent/ btw :)
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15:50.28valgrindi learned classical english.. not the strange dialekt you are speaking :D
15:50.53dRbiGChani: incoherent and inconsitent to be precise
15:51.07dRbiG:)
15:51.17valgrindi think we went off the cliff there :D
15:53.09dRbiGhonestly, they designed an os and they use bind to make the dir structure hold together?
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15:53.37ChanidRbiG: meep.
15:53.46dRbiGthat would be perfectly okey if it were a quick community hack made by people who never saw each other in spare time between being paid and slacking
15:53.52Chaniwonders what new fun meego will bring...
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15:54.22valgrindhmm.. that would explain alot.
15:54.44valgrindbut howcome i ran into a hardlink i couldnt access as root ?
15:54.53valgrindis that complete nonsense ??
15:54.54Chaniouch.
15:55.00satmdbye
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15:55.29pupnik_i am seeing unexplainable things on my laptop OS
15:55.39valgrind"auch" and "bye" !! hahaha... like calling tele company support devision :D
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15:55.51DocScrutinizersivang: (not on the wiki, may I go ahead) sure pal - why do you even ask?
15:57.20valgrindhmm.. my nokia 770 is beginning to feel like the ugly girlfriend you wont leave because you feel sorry for her.
15:57.25valgrindI will not give up
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15:58.05sivangvalgrind: oh dear, that's NOT good
15:58.16sivangvalgrind: that is a very bad situation to be in.
15:58.18DocScrutinizervalgrind: (im in a forest of folders that are incoherent) find usually helps a lot
15:58.43DocScrutinizersysfs nodes moving to a different subsystem but still keeping basename
15:58.52valgrindthanks :) Find.. ofcoarse. geee.. my unix knowledge is rusty. sorry.
15:59.22valgrindsysfs ??
15:59.40sivangDocScrutinizer: while I'm at it, is there a way without flasher to check if you are in R&D mode?
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15:59.50DocScrutinizersure
16:00.07DocScrutinizerbut don't ask me for the command offhand
16:00.16DocScrutinizercal-tool -b?
16:01.02sivangDocScrutinizer: I'll research though apt-cache search ;)
16:01.09DocScrutinizeryou'll find it when you grep /etc/init.d for some keywords I forgot
16:01.17sivangDocScrutinizer: that is enough, thanks
16:01.47sivangDocScrutinizer: btw the fact that I can do 'root' using the rootsh package does not put me into R&D yes?
16:02.04DocScrutinizercal-tool: unrecognized option `--help'
16:02.06DocScrutinizerUsage: cal-tool [OPTIONS]
16:02.07DocScrutinizerOptions:
16:02.09DocScrutinizer<PROTECTED>
16:02.38DocScrutinizersviabsolutely nope
16:02.43DocScrutinizersivang: ^^
16:02.48sivangDocScrutinizer: yep, just found it by --help the cal-tool on the device
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16:07.16DocScrutinizersivang: using root puts messybox into UID:root mode, nothing else
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16:07.43DocScrutinizerah, and just because I like it so much:
16:07.47DocScrutinizer~messybox
16:07.47infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils
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16:35.40RST38hSomebody ban him already, will you?
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16:38.05c3lwhy is this channel alive? didnt maemo merge with some other platform and form meego?
16:38.38petterithere are couple of n900 out there with maemo installed
16:39.08c3loh, yeah. I didnt think too much there
16:39.09RST38hthis channel is dead
16:39.16RST38hyou have come to the wrong place
16:40.14c3lokay, so this is basically just the place for the obsolete maemo platform for the n900 (and earlier versions). meego is what it will be in the future?
16:40.36pupnik_or symbian? :)
16:41.01Surfawell maemo will stay as well as long as there are maemo 5 devices out there
16:41.58Jaffac3l: MeeGo hasn't had anything resembling an app developer, let alone consumer, release.
16:42.18Jaffac3l: Nokia's next device may well be labelled as running MeeGo, but effectively it is "just" Maemo 6 rebranded.
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16:43.19pupnik_If only one company offers meego phones, and only one meego phone (like with n900) - how big of an impact will it have?
16:43.23c3loh I see. but wont meego be intel based instead of arm, or is it the other way around. so there will be some core differences?
16:44.05c3lany scheduled plans for nokias sucessor of the n900?
16:44.13DocScrutinizerRST38h: (ban) huh?
16:44.15pupnik_not much is announced c3l
16:44.24villagerpresumably meego will run on both intel and arm
16:45.00DocScrutinizerdefinitely meego will run on arm (as well)
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16:45.31pupnik_much of the goodwill meego is getting in the community is because of the open-source support history of maemo, which is best of the major phone makers
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16:46.15c3lI see, thanks for clarifying :)
16:46.27pupnik_people can (and do) complain about things, but it was nokia who started out the modern tablet / smartphone era with the 800x480 N770
16:46.46DocScrutinizer-N
16:46.52pupnik_oh y
16:47.48villagerc3l: I think the successor is called Nokia N9, you could search for info on it...
16:48.10pupnik_though i suppose Sharp Zaurus has a better claim to that title
16:48.34DocScrutinizero/
16:48.44pupnik_you had one right DocScrutinizer ?
16:48.51DocScrutinizernope
16:49.00DocScrutinizeralas not
16:49.08pupnik_i didn't have the money for one
16:49.19c3lpupnik_: oh, thanks!
16:50.13MohammadAG51or the RX-71
16:50.15pupnik_I must admit i'm greedy for higher resolutions, tablet-sized devices
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16:50.56pupnik_like a 770 that's all-bezel, where the protective case flips out to reveal a keyboard + trackpoint/dpad
16:51.07pupnik_i mean no-bezel
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16:51.13pupnik_(bitflip in brain)
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16:54.09RST38hAdmit it, you all want an iPad, sans the Apple logo
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16:55.04wmaroneRST38h: and sans iOS? sure.
16:55.52jukjavispedro: libsdl-gles1.2-dev cannot be found what i do?
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17:01.32bsh_nohighlightMohammadAG51,  u there?
17:01.51jukXephyr emulation is just toy, you can't actually test something like video game ...
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17:02.11crashanddietoy?
17:02.13RST38hiOS is more Unix than Maemo or Meego
17:02.20RST38hBSD based, real Unix
17:02.51crashanddienope
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17:02.55RST38hclimbs a tree just in case
17:03.08crashanddienot iOS, OSX is Unix certified (level 3?)
17:06.03bsh_nohighlightguys is there anyway to open my sms conversations on the pc?
17:06.10bsh_nohighlightany way*
17:06.25bsh_nohighlightor export them in another readble format
17:06.50Surfanew ovi suite should support it
17:07.18Bashhope so
17:07.42Surfanot matter of hope actually :)
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17:10.47jukalright how do you run something gui in scratchbox?
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17:12.20jukeven autocomlete not working in scratchbox, not talking about not displaying non ascii chars
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17:14.53MohammadAG51which target?
17:14.59jukalright which is tcl library
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17:15.46jukHi, MohammadAG51, not quite comletely not working, i meant apt-get autocomlete
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17:16.38jukHi, MohammadAG51, not quite com*p*letely not working, i meant apt-get autocom*p*letion
17:17.22juktarget ARMEL
17:17.49yaccAny log of all signals that the app produce? I've got a new N900 and it would be great if I could even guess why it vibrates or plays signals, ...
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17:18.37MohammadAG51you can't run a UI in armel, use your N900
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17:19.25Jartzamaemo.org is down?
17:19.52Bash1Surfa,  it doesnt work with the n900
17:20.18MohammadAG51infobot, maemodown
17:20.25MohammadAG51infobot, maemo-down
17:20.25infobotsomebody said maemo-down was http://maemo.org/news/announcements/maemo-org-service-break-2010-10-03/
17:20.29Bash1says messaging is not supported with this version  of the device software
17:20.32jukMohammadAG51: so scratchbox only for cli testing
17:20.57Jartzaoh well
17:21.21MohammadAG51juk, yes, UIs can be tested in X86
17:23.25DocScrutinizerbtw isn't it brilliant to have the announcement about maemo.org being down just exactly on maemo.org ? Muhahaha :-D
17:24.17MohammadAG51ROFL
17:24.29vkvrajuHi All
17:24.33DocScrutinizerjust as funny as recommending to 'man man' to learn how to install mandb
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17:26.57DocScrutinizeranybody got a copy of http://maemo.org/news/announcements/maemo-org-service-break-2010-10-03/ so we could put it somewhere else, e.g. wiki.maemo.org, twitter, or whatever?
17:27.01SurfaBash1, well, partly true
17:28.40vkvrajucan anyone tell me if kernel-power is needed for swappolube app
17:28.45Bash1so downloading that was pointless then Surfa ?
17:29.00vkvrajuand is swappolube app effective for you all
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17:29.50SurfaBash1, not really
17:29.59vkvrajuafter my last reflash, I haven't installed any app except for rootsh and bash3. So, just curious to know if swappolube has anything to offer in my case
17:30.23Bash1explain Surfa
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17:35.05sivangDocScrutinizer: hehe
17:35.48sivanghmm, is m.o down?
17:36.07sivangI just tried to save something o_O
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17:37.44slonopotamus_... i shoul
17:37.47slonopotamus_err
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17:37.59slonopotamus_i should say that too, i think
17:38.07slonopotamus_maemo.o down?! wtf???
17:38.21Jaffahttp://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/community/63411
17:38.32JaffaDocScrutinizer: There's your copy of the message, and the URL to point people to
17:39.01slonopotamus_-.-
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17:39.49slonopotamus_7pm utc... 20mins left?
17:39.55*** mode/#maemo [+o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ
17:40.02slonopotamus_no, 80
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17:40.15*** topic/#maemo by DocScrutinizer -> Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | http://maemo.nokia.com/ | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org/ | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | maemo.org service outage: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/community/63411
17:40.31*** mode/#maemo [-o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ
17:40.46DocScrutinizerJaffa: thnx
17:40.47slonopotamus_DocScrutinizer, whazzup with maemo.org?
17:40.54slonopotamus_:P
17:41.05DocScrutinizerkicks slonopotamus_
17:43.13slonopotamus_my mom redirects dns to oter box that says 'we have expected downtime, see details at <url>' in such cases
17:43.38slonopotamus_s/oter/other/
17:44.17DocScrutinizerthat's hard to establish for a worldwide DNS with load balancing
17:44.40jukhow do i stop scratchbox session
17:44.49DocScrutinizerpropagating of DNS thru the worldwide DNS service can take up to 24h
17:45.47slonopotamus_my mom reduces dns expiration time one-two days _before_ planned downtime :P
17:45.57DocScrutinizeryou probably don't want to extend the 2h downtime by a 24h lead-in and a 24h lead-out
17:46.26slonopotamus_nevermind, i'm just in a good mood :)
17:46.29DocScrutinizerthat's still insane for 2h
17:46.33jukwhat should i stop in order to close session in scratchbox
17:46.42slonopotamus_juk, ctrl+d?
17:47.02slonopotamus_define 'session in scratchbox'
17:47.15jukslonopotamus_: after login back it still says sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first
17:48.00MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, jacekowski, any ideas how to dump an sqlite3 database into csv?
17:48.05slonopotamus_juk, i think it wants you to kill processes
17:48.05Kaadlajkjuk: sb-conf killall --signal=9
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17:48.23dRbiGMohammadAG51: directly from sqlite3 client
17:48.52dRbiGMohammadAG51: don't remember the excact commands, but it goes like .format csv, .dump myfile.csv
17:49.04jukKaadlajk: God bless you, smart people
17:50.38MohammadAG51dRbiG, thanks :D
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17:54.47Goliath23http://imagebin.ca/view/KzdvCKGG.html <- my first n900 widget :)
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17:55.32dRbiGGoliath23: looks nice - hmm, you're using qt for gui right?
17:55.42Goliath23not finished yet, though. if anyone wants to help, please just give me a note https://garage.maemo.org/projects/buliscores
17:55.53Goliath23dRbiG: yes, Qt and a QTableView
17:56.33Goliath23dRbiG: although they don'#t fully support translucent widgets. as soon as they support it I will make it semi-translucent to it blends nicer to the theme
17:57.18dRbiGhmm, yeah, i have 'figuring out transparency' on my hacking list
17:57.45Goliath23I have a lot of features in mind (support several leagues, sound and LED notification for goals, pull after push updates instead of simple pull, etc etc.)
17:57.52Goliath23maybe I should write them down as tasks in garage
17:58.42dRbiGmhm, i need to figure out transparency too, but under gtk
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17:58.53dRbiGit is possible that's for sure
17:59.24Goliath23and I also want to use my server as a proxy to the real backend sites where the data is scraped. that way I can react if they change their layout. two options there: 1. implement the parser on the server or 2. make the server fake the old format
17:59.28Goliath231. is probably better
18:00.36Goliath23and since I have to implement a server anyway, I can also put the parsing classes into it and send the widget some JSON objects which look the same no matter if kicker.de or somespanishsite.es is used
18:00.56Goliath23I'm just afraid that I need a bit coding help :)
18:02.36Goliath23how can I make a projechomepage on garage? do I have a shell access or something?
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18:54.41Goliath23I can't log into my garage shell. do I need to upload a key or so?
18:54.58JaffaGoliath23: No shell access.
18:56.31crashanddieGoliath23: what made you think you had shell access?
18:57.00crashanddie~ping
18:57.00infobot~pong
18:57.02DocScrutinizerGoliath23: you need to register projects with gods of garage :-D
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19:00.41Goliath23Jaffa, crashanddie, DocScrutinizer: the email I got was talking of shell access (now that I think about it, it also mentioned CVS as version control system -.-)
19:01.15Goliath23so how I
19:01.19Goliath23uhm
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19:01.30Goliath23how do I edit my projects description / homepage
19:01.31Goliath23?
19:01.39Goliath23actually I just want to add a screenshot..
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19:02.29DocScrutinizer51you dd html content to git err projectfrontpage folder, (or whatever it's called)
19:02.39DocScrutinizer51add*
19:02.55Goliath23git err projectfrontpage
19:02.56Goliath23err?
19:03.10Goliath23(i'm new to git, only svn experience so far)
19:04.52DocScrutinizer51you can choose from SVN,git on Ur proj admin/CVS page
19:05.33DocScrutinizer51you add your ssh key somewhere there to enable upload
19:06.06DocScrutinizer51you can html-brove repo if enabled for public viewing
19:06.17DocScrutinizer51browse*
19:06.37Goliath23DocScrutinizer: ah, just read the starter document, I need a www directory!
19:06.40Goliath23thanks!
19:07.14DocScrutinizer51yw
19:07.32JaffaGoliath23: Either upload it as a file, or create a 'www' directory in your VCS root and put whatever you want in there
19:08.06Goliath23Jaffa: ah, maybe screenshot upload as a file will do for now.
19:08.06DocScrutinizer51file? FQN?
19:08.08Goliath23thanks
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19:08.41DocScrutinizer51hmm, missed that
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19:13.18DocScrutinizer51crashanddie: maemo.org alive again?
19:13.27crashanddieno idea
19:13.29crashanddiewas it down?
19:13.41DocScrutinizer51please clean topic just in case
19:13.49crashanddiek
19:13.53*** mode/#maemo [+o crashanddie] by ChanServ
19:13.59ZogGhey
19:14.06*** topic/#maemo by crashanddie -> Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | http://maemo.nokia.com/ | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org/ | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
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19:24.41timeless_xchathello world
19:24.45MohammadAGPortrait mode in settings app, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=832478#post832478
19:25.03MohammadAGI wonder what other apps can be patched quickly
19:27.41timeless_xchatjaffa : thumbs up for the description
19:31.49MohammadAGDocScrutinizer,
19:32.04MohammadAGmodified-hildon-desktop looks like hildon-desktop with modified sources
19:32.08MohammadAGI was expecting patches :(
19:32.42DocScrutinizer51well, you know whom to pester, no?
19:33.24DocScrutinizer51otoh the cpu hog patch might merge on mhd as well, just try?
19:34.36timeless_xchatjaffa : wah, launching here-and-now caused the browser to crash (internal error)
19:34.48timeless_xchatsp3000 : have you tried here-and-now?
19:35.00MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, lol he just posted a reply, http://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb
19:35.01DocScrutinizer51wtf is here-and-now?
19:35.22MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, a nokia service, shows weather and probably other stuff that doesn't work in israel xD
19:35.23DocScrutinizer51err wut?
19:35.24timeless_xchatit's in at least -devel
19:35.33MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, mhd with latest git
19:35.50DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: ? with cpuhog killed?
19:35.56timeless_xchatmohammadag : nokia generally rolls out services in stages
19:36.04timeless_xchattypically .uk would be a good first stage
19:36.17timeless_xchatenglish market, small, easy to cover
19:36.30MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, latest git = yes
19:36.40sp3000timeless_xchat: it sounds ...exciting!
19:36.43DocScrutinizer51good :-D
19:36.44MohammadAGtimeless_xchat, meh, won't expect anything from them in IL
19:36.59MohammadAGthe N900 isn't officially on sale here, I imported mine from the US
19:37.19MohammadAGthanks Nokia for ignoring AT&T
19:38.14DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: URL borked :-(
19:38.23MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, wfm
19:39.29DocScrutinizer51my.svgalib.org E nonexist
19:41.37MohammadAGlol for some reason it fails with wget
19:42.18MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, http://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb works now
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19:47.57crashanddieOK, if anyone ever feels like watching "Smokin' Ace"...
19:48.05Stskeeps'don't'?
19:48.05Stskeeps:P
19:48.17crashanddiewell, watch it alone, then make your call
19:48.41crashanddiedo NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, watch it with girlfriend/family prior to safescreening it
19:48.49sp3000watch it with a grizzly
19:49.01sp3000(a panda will do in a pinch)
19:49.46crashanddiebetween bodies flying around a hotel lobby after being shot by a .50 cal, hardcore neo-nazi redneck idiots dying by falling on their own chainsaw, and people waking up in lakes finding their fingers chewed off...
19:49.50crashanddiewell, you get the idea.
19:50.07MohammadAGcalls gf and invites her over for a movie
19:50.18crashanddieyou don't have a gf, numnuts
19:50.24crashanddies/num/numb/
19:50.37MohammadAGyou don't know what I have and what I don't have :P
19:50.57crashanddieyou have an n900
19:51.00MohammadAGkicks crashanddie in the nuts
19:51.04crashanddieyou don't have a n810
19:51.05sp3000timeless_xchat: well, it doesn't crash me
19:51.28crashanddieMohammadAG: now my nuts are numb :(
19:51.52crashanddieMohammadAG: looks like my reply on tmo kinda killed the thread, didn't it?
19:52.21MohammadAGcrashanddie, no, it just proved that he's talking from his ass
19:52.39timeless_xchatsp3000 : any way to catch browser deaths?
19:52.50timeless_xchatthey never seem to trigger crash reporter
19:53.02crashanddietimeless_xchat: probably because they're child processes
19:53.26sp3000well crash reporter catshes anything that cores
19:53.26JaffaDocScrutinizer51: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2010/10/03/here_and_now_what_s_on_near_you_now
19:53.54sp3000if it's some case where it murders itself or something, maybe not
19:54.09Jaffatimeless_xchat: Don't blame me for your shitty browser; I'm using a well publicised API and pointing at a remote web site. If that can crash the thing, there're more worrying things than H&N now working ;-)
19:54.43JaffaAlthough, having used the browser on a Blackberry and Symbian, microb's still pretty good.
19:58.02crashanddieJaffa: have you tried the browser on bberies with the new tracking pad? (the ones that don't have the clit anymore)
19:58.31Jaffacrashanddie: I've got a Curve from work. It's got some kind of weird touch sensor thing.
19:58.44crashanddiethe browsing experience is much improved I have to say
19:58.48crashanddieI have a 9700
19:58.53crashanddiewhatever it may be, bold probably
19:59.08MohammadAGcrashanddie, is there a time limit to reply with the source? (GPL)
19:59.13crashanddieno
19:59.29MohammadAGso he could be uploading sources for years?
19:59.35crashanddieindeed
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20:10.21MohammadAGsigh @ skype calls
20:10.22MohammadAG<PROTECTED>
20:10.22MohammadAG<PROTECTED>
20:10.34MohammadAGLoad average: 3.62 3.58 3.20
20:12.27crashanddiethis actually made me laugh out loud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx14mSUH1qQ
20:12.31crashanddielcuk: you'll enjoy it
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20:20.09MohammadAGcrashanddie, can't see anything "wrong" here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475394/parentalguide
20:20.41DocScrutinizer51gconftool-2 -s /apps/osso/hildon-desktop/key-actions/ctrl_backspace_in_tasknav -t int 5  #AWESOME
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20:37.22dsgugh, syncing with syncevolution clobbers SIP numbers for contacts
20:58.50JaffaDocScrutinizer51: effect = ?
20:59.27DocScrutinizerJaffa: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
20:59.36MohammadAGJaffa, you need modified hildon-desktop
20:59.42DocScrutinizer## new: with ctrl-BS for nice taskswitching, see
20:59.57JaffaMohammadAG: Does SSU count?
21:00.12MohammadAGJaffa, no, but they install side by side
21:00.25MohammadAGmodified-hildon-desktop is a different package
21:00.32MohammadAGhttp://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb
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21:00.47MohammadAGdpkg -i it, it won't replace your hd package, it'll just replace the binary in /usr/bin
21:01.19DocScrutinizerJaffa: or just visit my tools page, and c&p :-D
21:01.53JaffaI see.
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21:29.11tobis87http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020629/parentalguide :-D , a penis would be the least to worry about.
21:34.25johnxwith a description like that how can I avoid clicking the link? (Pretty easily it turns out ...)
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21:37.00tobis87everybody should make their own mind up and not rely on recommendations, not that I would show hardcore pornographie to childrens, but I don't think children get "damaged" by watching controversial movies.
21:37.55pupnik_i do if the movie shows actual evil from the protagonist side
21:38.10pupnik_so a horror slasher that revels in cutting people up is actually sickening media
21:38.16crashanddieno, but their parents sure hate it when you bring them back after introducing the kids to freddie kruger, and then the parents bitch "we can't sleep anymore, they keep having nightmares, bla bla bla"
21:38.57johnxtobis87, neither do I. and I never said otherwise :) Just my own comments on why I'm not too likely to follow that link ...
21:39.39Freak5do you know if there is a chance for working ovi-maps navigation with speech support when using maemo?
21:39.46MohammadAGhmm
21:39.56crashanddiejohnx: you seem to have a solid case of misunderstanding
21:40.00MohammadAGhow do I add a scheduled shutdown on ubuntu?
21:40.23johnxcrashanddie, likely caused by apathy. it's a real problem
21:40.28johnx:)
21:40.37MohammadAGnvm, I'll just use a sleep 10800; halt
21:40.49pupnik_MohammadAG: "man shutdown" maybe
21:41.01johnxshutdown -something-that-i-forgot -h
21:41.06johnxmaybe -t?
21:41.09tobis87pupnik_:  Which is really ridiculas, if you have watched Braindead from Peter Jackson. It is so overdone, you will laugh at every splasher if you watched this movie...
21:42.04pupnik_tobis87: ok noted
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21:44.16pupnik_i guess it's not easy to convince someone of something that isn't seen physically
21:45.17pupnik_what flows through us individuals as common culture is sometimes difficult to percieve - without an external vantage point of some sort
21:45.55DocScrutinizer51shutdown -h "tomorrow at teatime"
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21:47.53kerioshutdown -h "tonight... you"
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21:48.38DocScrutinizerthat's for sure beyond what date(1) syntax allows
21:49.55kerioyou have to install glibc-memes
21:50.05DocScrutinizerThe --date=STRING is a mostly free format human readable date string such as "Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:21:42 -0800"  or       "2004-02-29  16:21:42" or even "next Thursday".
21:50.32tobis87pupnik_: it is not blood, which makes people fear, but the subtile... watching psycho is the best example, what will happen next? and "all quiet on the western front" is subtile in a way, because it shows how senseless war really is.
21:51.01crashanddielol... i misread that as "subtitle", not "subtile"
21:51.11crashanddiewondering wtf you were on about
21:51.23crashanddiethough, tobis87, that's way off topic and has been for a while
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21:56.47tobis87crashanddie: Well, I was just referring to MohammadAG: crashanddie, can't see anything "wrong" here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475394/parentalguide , which is ridiculas if you compare it to the parental guide to the movie all quiet on the western front.
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21:57.50crashanddie"Hey, why the hell did you shoot that black dude?" "Well, mr officer, I was just trying to make a point from a conversation we had earlier on"
21:59.59luke-jr_…
22:00.35ieatlintthat's it, no more bacon for you
22:00.40kerioBACON
22:02.20tobis87crashanddie: I had to make my comment, because comparing "Parents should know this movie contains very graphic violence" to a "a penis is shown" in an anti-war movie is just hilarious.
22:03.06crashanddieyou didn't have to do anything, now just please let this topic die out
22:05.41johnxcrashanddie, quit being the topic enforcer :P
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22:08.19tobis87ok, but bacon is not much more intellectual, I really don't want to argue, but right now there doesn't seem to be much maemo related talk going on. just to make life less boring...
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22:13.21crashanddiewas I just insulted of being as intellectual as bacon?
22:13.36keriobeing compared to bacon is *never* an insult
22:13.39keriowhatever the comparison is
22:13.51ieatlintagreed, it's high praise
22:13.58ieatlintthere should be bacon awards
22:15.00Chanitobis87: oy, I was seeing "subtitle" as well. the word you're looking for is "subtle" :)
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22:16.14ieatlinti need to find a bar that serves bacon
22:17.21tobis87Chani: Yes, I know should not use google for translation, that much. :-D
22:17.37johnxin US English at least I think it's 'subtle' not 'subtile'. Is it different in other English variants?
22:18.46Chanijohnx: no, it is always "subtle"
22:19.16Chani"subtile" sounds like something a window manager might do, but it's not a real english word anywhere ;)
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22:19.29tobis87In german it is "subtil".
22:19.30johnxwell, in the dictionary here it says that 'subtile' is 'Now rare' whateverTF that means
22:19.49Chanitobis87: ah, cool :)
22:19.53ieatlintarchaic probably
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22:20.55Chaniwatch out for those downloaded dictionaries... I have a german->english one on my n900 that frequently gives me words so obscure I'm pretty sure a few of them never existed at all
22:21.17johnxanyways, I vote we just change the English and German spelling to subtile. No point in having them differ by only one letter
22:23.53Chanidamnit, now I want bacon :P
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22:25.15tobis87I once had the problem, that instead of the ordinary dictonary, ubuntu had installed a dictonary for OpenOffice, which enforced academic speak. :-D
22:25.52johnxdid it highlight "don't" as a misspelling?
22:26.13crashanddieChani: how can a word never have existed if it exists in a dictionary on your n900
22:26.23kerioNEVER EXISTED
22:26.46tobis87Wanted to complicate every word... :-D Nah, don't remember, was just on my netbook, fixed it quickly.
22:27.27tobis87But, I think it was Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex
22:27.28johnxcrashanddie, just because someone gives you a book full of letters and calls it a dictionary, doesn't mean that those collections of letters are words
22:27.48crashanddiejohnx: actually, as soon as a word is used, it exists
22:27.53johnxsdlfhsfs
22:27.59johnxit means "no, that's crap."
22:28.02crashanddiebeing in a dictionary does not define a word's existance.
22:28.44ieatlinthe has a point... english's lack of a governing body means you can't disprove anything about english
22:28.54johnxieatlint, sdlfhsfs
22:28.57ieatlintit also means i can decide that alot is proper
22:29.09johnxalot is great
22:29.52johnxhttp://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
22:30.09ieatlinthehe, yeah, i love that
22:30.15ieatlintwas thinking of the alot when saying that :)
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22:31.00b-man`http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-maintenance.jpg :)
22:31.32ieatlintwhat's wrong with that? it's not turned on...
22:31.44ieatlintalso, go isa and simms
22:32.47crashanddiejohnx: this woman always cuts off the butt of the ham before putting it in the pan, but one day she wonders why. It's a tasty piece, soft and yummy, so why throw it away? Because her mom did. So she calls her mum, and asks why she did it. "I don't know, that's how my mother used to do it", the mother replies, so the woman calls her grandmother, and asks why she threw away the butt of the ham. She replies that she didn't have a
22:33.44crashanddiejohnx: the dictionary is just like the pan. It's not big enough. It can't hold the wealth of words that are available. A word can't be a "real word", as much as it can't be a "non-existent word". If you like a word, use it, it really doesn't matter whether it's in a dictionary or not.
22:34.11SpeedEvilInfilipostulantly correct.
22:34.37johnxcrashanddie, sdlfhsfs
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22:35.04crashanddieyou do realise what you're doing, yes?
22:35.22johnxcrashanddie, yes. that's why it amuses me
22:35.25Chanicrashanddie: you got cut off.
22:35.32Chani"she didn't have a
22:35.47crashanddieChani: "she didn't have a pan big enough!"
22:36.08crashanddieMrs X's little boy has grown up to go "sdlfhshfs" in a room full of adults trying to have a decent conversation.
22:36.41Chani"If you like a word, use it" <-- but if you like to be understood, think twice about that :)
22:36.54Chanicrashanddie: conversation? at this time of night? ;)
22:36.56johnxmy point being that it takes consensus for a word to be useful
22:37.09crashanddieChani: "night" is a very geographically subjective term :)
22:37.15Chanioh right that
22:37.27crashanddiedo you really think that the guy who invented "LOL" waited for consensus?
22:37.27johnxand that languages might not have 'rules' but they have 'guidelines' about what words are 'acceptable'
22:37.41Chaniis now in europe, and is enjoying being in the same timezone as 80% of kde
22:37.41SpeedEviljohnx: Unless you're in france.
22:37.46johnxcrashanddie, which is why it wasn't a useful word at first, it was just annoying
22:37.47crashanddieyet, it's one heck of a popular word in the world
22:37.48SpeedEviljohnx: Where there is a committee.
22:38.45crashanddieSpeedEvil: do you know how the people who are part of the "Academie Francaise" are called?
22:38.54crashanddie"The Immortals"
22:39.22crashanddieThis weekend, they voted in favour of a rule of the Academie Francaise that would limit new Immortals to be 75 max.
22:39.32crashanddieReasoning was: "We need more young blood"
22:39.48SpeedEvil:)
22:39.51crashanddieAnyone thinking of vampires at this stage?
22:40.07SpeedEvilI was actually thinking of Highlander.
22:40.21SpeedEvilBut that doesn't work ell with a comittee.
22:40.25crashanddieOh come on, immortals, "we need more young blood"?
22:40.36crashanddieand their costumes are even more ridicule
22:41.39crashanddiehttp://www.academie-francaise.fr/images/immortels/portraits/girard.jpg
22:41.46crashanddiethis guy almost smells of dracula himself
22:42.45SpeedEvil:)
22:43.46crashanddieanyway, I'm out, later all
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22:51.07tobis87If you ever will try to read Hegel, you will forget about languages...
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22:51.37tobis87This is what I would call "geschwurbel", there might be some readable passages and interesting stuff, but most of it is hidden behind a huge construction of letters which don't mean anything to the normal person.
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22:54.40tobis87Was this hegel's world spirit, or just a dsl reconnect? :-D
22:56.32DocScrutinizer51err, server down?
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